The Hobbit - Chapter 15 - The Gathering of the Clouds

[Estelyn Telcontar]

With this chapter, we return to Bilbo and the dwarves - :rolleyes: - obvious, of course, as Tolkien's first sentence tells us precisely that!

Interestingly, the birds and their activity are an important clue (and later on help) to finding out what's going on elsewhere. Quite a few different birds are named, especially crows, thrushes, and ravens. Do you think there is a special reason why those birds were chosen? We find out that the ravens and the dwarves had a cordial relationship in the past, and the renewal of that cooperation is of great help to the dwarves now. I enjoy the story of Roäc as one of my favorite parts of this chapter. The raven brings news both good and ominous, and though he does not directly give advice, it is plain to see what he would have the dwarves do.
Your own wisdom must decide your course
...he says, but is Thorin wise? I find myself cringing when I read his and his fellow dwarves' decisions. How would the story have ended differently if they had been more reasonable and willing to part with some of the wealth? Do you understand their point of view or agree entirely with Bilbo?

We have fairly detailed descriptions of the fortifications the dwarves undertook to strengthen their defenses. Then comes the first confrontation, brief and without more than Thorin's words.

Bilbo finds himself more drawn to the elves and their music, though the dwarves sing as well. What do you think when you read their rather militant song? The poem is closely related to the one they sang in Bag End at the beginning of the book, Far under the misty mountains cold. What's similar, and what's different?

How do you think the Elves and Men conducted themselves? Did their words and actions contribute to the conflict, or were they justified? Could they have prevented the following war? Is the dwarves' resentment of the elves due to their captivity in the Elven-king's halls, or is there more to it?

Thorin shoots an arrow at the messenger who comes to parley; though it only hits his shield, it is an unfairly aggressive act, don't you think?

The chapter ends with Bilbo's thoughts on their situation - not surprisingly, very practical, down-to-earth thoughts of smell and taste. What are your feelings when you read it? Which parts are your favorites, which do you like less?

[Bêthberry]

This appearance of the birds strengthens the fairie aspects of The Hobbit, which I like. I can't help but wonder on what basis Tolkien chose to have various species represent positive or negative traits, though.

At the same time, does the warning from the thrush and raven have a serious aspect and terrible consequence? True, the news helps the dwarves prepare their defenses, but does this information about the advancing men and elves work to harden Thorin's heart? Would he have met the advance differently had he not had time to stew in his possessiveness?

Could Bilbo have changed things if he had given up the Arkenstone?Why does Bilbo remain silent about it? Was the failure to find this relic a poignant instigator in Thorin's feeling that his heritage was being denied? Is Bilbo culpable for the war even with his sense of favouring the elves?

~~a few quick thoughts~~

[Selmo]

Tokien's inspiration for his Dwarves came from Norse mythology where ravens have great importance. The Norse god Odin had two ravens named Huginn and Muninn (Thought and Memory). They brought news of what was happening in Middle-earth to him, just as the ravens of the Lonely Mountain bring news to Thorin.

I cannot recall any thrushes in Norse mythology. Does anyone know of any mention of thrushes in Norse or any other mythology?
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[Faramir Jones]

I've always liked this exchange. Today, they (or rather their lawyers) would be doing this in a courtroom. :)

Bard makes two claims. The first is personal, divided into two parts. The first part is that he is the slayer of Smaug, the implication being that he deserves a reward for this. The second part is that he is the heir of Girion, Lord of Dale, whose wealth is part of Smaug's hoard. The second claim is on behalf of the Lake-men, he still being the servant of their master. He asks if there is any thought for their 'sorrow and misery', they having earlier aided Thorin and his people.

Thorin's response is that Bard put his worst cause last and in the chief place. He said that no man had a claim on the treasure due to the destruction of Smaug; because the treasure wasn't Smaug's to begin with. While they would 'fairly’ pay for the goods and assistance the Lake-men gave them, they would give nothing under threat of force, while an armed host 'lies before our doors'. He then asks the pointed question about how much of the treasure Bard and his allies would have given to their relatives, if they had found it unguarded and he and his people killed.

Bard sidesteps this, saying that they were not dead, and he and his allies 'not robbers'. He then said that the wealthy may have 'pity beyond right' to help the needy who befriended them when they were in want. Also, his other claims remained 'unanswered'.

Thorin replies that he would not negotiate with armed men at his gate, still less with the people of the Elvenking 'whom I remember with little kindness'. He then tells Bard to go 'ere our arrows fly!'

From a legal point of view, Bard has a valid personal claim. As slayer of Smaug he would be entitled to a reward from those who benefited the most from that dragon's death. Also, as the heir of Girion, he would have a valid hereditary claim to the relevant parts of the treasure that were his ancestor's. It's interesting that Thorin refuses to discuss this claim, admitting its great strength.

In terms of whether some treasure should be given to the Lake-men, Thorin concedes that he and his people will pay fairly for the goods and assistance given them; but he refuses to agree any other legal liability, pointing out quite correctly that Smaug had no right to the treasure. For that reason, the Lake-men could not legally claim any part of it as compensation for Smaug's destruction.

But while Thorin is legally correct, Bard points out that the Lake-men helped Thorin and his people when they were in want, without asking for anything in return, appealing to their pity. This is a good point; and it would not only be the morally right thing to do, but also good politics, ensuring the goodwill of many towards the re-established Kingdom under the Mountain.

My own view is that Tolkien is showing that Thorin is morally, as well as mostly legally, in the wrong. It would be the morally (as well as politically) correct decision to give something to help the Lake-men, who had helped him and his people without asking anything in return. However, Tolkien gives as a reason the influence of the dragon-infected gold on Thorin, as well as the aggravating factor of the presence of an army on his doorstep, partly made up of Woodelves. There is the maxim 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'. One could here twist it around to mean 'The friend of my enemy is my enemy', viewing the Lake-men in a hostile light for being friends with those elves who had imprisoned him.

Thorin is wrong, but Tolkien gives us reasons for understanding why. What do other people think?