Fate of the Nazgul?

[SarumanCymraeg]

Hi! I was just wondering what would be the ultimate fate of the Nazgul after the destruction of the One Ring, do you think, or has Tolkien ever stated what it was.

Although it is generally accepted they were destroyed, or diminished, what would then be their fate? The Nine were orgininally kings of Men, so would they have shared the fate of Men (although we don't know what that is) or would simply have been disembodied and powerless as Sauron?

Just a thought :p

[davem]

Make up your own story - its more fun. Don't worry if it doesn't 'fit' with the 'official' version in The Sil or the other stuff 'unpublished'in Tolkien's lifetime - not, that there is an 'official' version. I think the implication is that they were all destroyed when their Rings were. After death if there was anything left of them spiritually they would have gone to Mandos & then beyond the Circles of the World, which is the fate of Men.

[Morgul Queen]

When the Nazgul are destroyed there's a line about their voices not being heard again in that age of the world.

Which lasted about 2 years...

...eeeeenteresting.

[Raynor]

That line reffers only to the Witch-king, once it was killed by Eowyn ;).

Edit: it is worth noting that in the "Ring goes south" chapter, Gandalf says:
You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that, said Gandalf. The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him.which could imply their dissappearence (either as impotence, either all mortals depart).

[yavanna II]

But do they go in the Halls of Mandos--the separate space for men? I mean, they were men, only they were bewitched and perverted by Sauron.

[Gil-Galad]

Or their spirits just wander in Limbo.

well they could also be sent to the Void, i have played one scenario where the Nazgul are trying to reform and open the void again. its was interesting for sure

[MatthewM]

Well, technically weren't they already dead? I take it as the "Limbo" was their presence as Nazgul on Middle-earth, and I believe when Sauron "died", they died too. Or in other words, their spirits were released...I'm not sure where I stand though on whether the spirits vanished, went to Mandos, or lingered pathlessly, unlike their limbo on Middle-earth.

[Gil-Galad]

what i meant by them having to remain in limbo, would be that the nazgul's spirits are to far past redemption and must endure the agony of being in Limbo, being alone, ignored, and unthought of, and much watch everything that happens and can't do anything about it.


so basically they were to evil to be given a final rest and their spirits must wander the earth for eternity. almost like common day ghosts if you will.

oh and technically they weren't dead, their lifespan just basically went beyond normal due to Saurons malice, the Nazgul's human bodies corroded away but their Spirits, that were entwined with Sauron, remain, so if we are speaking teachnically, the Nazgul aren't dead because they never died, Their Souls are still there to take the place.

[radagastly]

so basically they were to evil to be given a final rest and their spirits must wander the earth for eternity.

I don't agree. They were, after all, men. No one in Arda, not even the Valar, can withhold the Gift of Iluvatar. They would go to Mandos, and then beyond to the unknown. They might resist the call, as they'd been doing for thousands of years, but with the power of the rings gone, would their spirits have the strength to remain? They had little will of their own for most of their time in Arda, slaves to their rings and, through the One Ring, slaves to Sauron. That power was now gone. If they were Ainur like Sauron and Saruman tied to the world as long as it endured, they might be able to remain in Middle Earth rather than journey across the sea to Valinor, but their essence was simply human, and weary beyond measure. Bilbo was weary after holding the One Ring for sixty-one years, thin and stretched like butter scraped over too much bread. (I love that line, by the way.) Imagine how you would feel with a less powerful ring to sustain you, and yet endure for thousands of years, rather than only sixty-one?

[Gil-Galad]

maybe i didn't explain before, Nazgul were evil, its torture to remain in limbo, so as a punishment to the Nazgul, Mandos forced them to remain in limbo.


so its more of a punishment, like when Sauron's shadow headed toward valinor but got blown away by a eastward wind.

[radagastly]

maybe i didn't explain before, Nazgul were evil, its torture to remain in limbo, so as a punishment to the Nazgul, Mandos forced them to remain in limbo.

I still don't agree. I understand the idea of punishment for evil men, but their souls are still those of men. Mandos has neither the power nor the authority to hold them within the circles of the world when it is time for them to depart. Only Eru knows what reward or punishment may await them once they leave.

[Gil-Galad]

*sigh*

they were men, the bodies of the men they use to be have long corroded away and their evil souls remain, so i can put up the argument that they are no longer men, they are twisted souls that use to be men. so with that the Valar can deny them and make them stay in limbo

oh and what about the Numenor, they were given longer life by the Valar, so technically their date of deathes were prolonged by the Valar.

[radagastly]

True, their bodies were men, but so were their souls. Evil men, to be sure, but men none-the-less. I suspect this is something we will never agree on.

oh and what about the Numenor, they were given longer life by the Valar, so technically their date of deathes were prolonged by the Valar.

The date was prolonged, not denied. Like Aragorn eventually did, they chose the time of their dying (unless they were killed by some other means, in battle or from illness.) The date of their death was prolonged by themselves, not the Valar, if it was prolonged at all.

[Gil-Galad]

Well yeah, but they didn't choose their death, Aragorn wasn't like "i think i'll die when i'm 100 something", what i am basically trying to say is that Sauron corrupted the souls of the Nazgul, thus they lost their men-soulness and became shadows.

Sauron changed them bascially, turning them from men into darker things.

[MatthewM]

Well...there is no denying that they were men, they were ensnared, they were controlled souls. But, I must agree with radagastly when he says they had to eventually be tried in some way-- if they were just souls you really wouldn't have been able to see them. But since one could physically see them (as their forms were real enough to have a black cloth cover around them) you can't really say they were just souls in limbo. Their man "essence" was still there...so once they died, in being controlled souls, I would think they would be tried. Whereas with Sauron, he was the controller of the evil...so he was turned away.

[Boromir88]

Their man "essence" was still there...so once they died, in being controlled souls, I would think they would be tried. Whereas with Sauron, he was the controller of the evil...so he was turned away.~Mathew
Well Sauron's spirit had become earthbound after the sinking of Numenor, and after the Ring's destruction he was unable again to take a physical form and his spirit would just 'roam the earth.' The Ainur can become earthbound meaning they lose the ability to change their form (as Sauron did) or the ability to construct a new form after they die (as what happens with the Balrogs, and eventually to Sauron when the ring is destroyed). Typically those who commit evil deeds are prone to becoming earthbound.

But, as far as I know this only applies to the Ainur who were the one's able to inhabit and construct other bodies.

There existance in Middle-earth was because of the Ring, Gandalf says that Sauron's power was tied in them:
’You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,’ said Gandalf. ’The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him.~The Ring goes South
And I think we have to accept Gandalf's words because when the Ring is destroyed:
And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that peirced all other sounds, tearing the clouse asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in a fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.~Mount Doom

But as far as what happens to them afterwards, always seems to be the big question mark. Logic tells us just as the spirits of Men do, will go to the halls of Mandos and wait there for a period then go out of the Circles of the World.

However, I find something Gandalf says to be interesting:
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf and the huge form stopped. 'Go back into the Shadow that is ready for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness waiting for you and your Master. Go back!~The Siege of Gondor
I think this can be taken a few different ways. Is Gandalf telling the Nazgul to 'go back into the Shadow'...shadow meaning simply go back into the darkness...the nothingness. Or is he telling the Witch-King to die and go into the Void which is awaiting him and Sauron?

If that is the case, then that offers another possibility for the fate of the Nazgul, but I fear raises more baffling questions. The Witch-King was different than the rest of his Nazgul brethren, he was granted extra demonic force in the battle of Pelennor Fields by Sauron, the other Nazgul were not. So would this only apply to the Lord of the Nazgul. And also, we have to question is Gandalf even right about the Witch-King's fate?

[whitlight]

maybe the witchking's spirit survived because he actually died before the one ring was destroyed

[Gil-Galad]

Well don't forget the fords too at Rivendell, the Nazgul were swept away there.