A few things

[Jimmylew]

Hi I am very new to LOTR books and have a few questions, I would appreciate any answers. I have searched here on the forum and on the web but still have a few questions.


What was Saurons' actaul plan with creating the Rings? What was he hoping to happen exactly? Would the Elves of Erigion have turned to Wraiths if they hadn't had foiled his plan?

Sauron didnt know anything about the 3 rings, but was it through their power that Celebrimbor perceived of Saurons' plot?


If Aragon or Gandalf had put on the One ring during the books, what exactly could they have used it for?

And finally; If Sauron had recaptured the One Ring would he have commaned the wearers of the Three or just have access to their power\workings?


Thanks in advance.

[Raynor]

What was Saurons' actaul plan with creating the Rings?He made the one ring to rule over the elves:
but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them Would the Elves of Erigion have turned to Wraiths if they hadn't had foiled his plan?Seeing that the marring of Melkor accelerates the phisical fading of the elves and that Sauron's victory would have deepened that marring, you are at least partially correct.
Sauron didnt know anything about the 3 rings, but was it through their power that Celebrimbor perceived of Saurons' plot?Probably yes; after they perceived him and his designs, they took off their rings.
If Aragon or Gandalf had put on the One ring during the books, what exactly could they have used it for?It is possible that Gandalf would have mastered the ring, but then:
the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron
If Sauron had recaptured the One Ring would he have commaned the wearers of the Three or just have access to their power\workings? He would have comanded everything, forever:
If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts

[Laiudanama]

Couldn't get much fuller than that - I commend your mastery of the quote function, sir Raynor! :)

Just to really add a brief note to that in response to one of your questions, JimmyLew: What was Saurons' actaul plan with creating the Rings? What was he hoping to happen exactly? Would the Elves of Erigion have turned to Wraiths if they hadn't had foiled his plan?

It could be an interesting discussion on the differences between men and elves, and their characters - how they would react to the power of the rings. Throughout the novel, one becomes aware that, although men and elves are similar, there are still certain generic character differences between them: for example, the weakness of men is highlighted several times - e.g. in the weakness of Isildur in keeping the ring of power when he had the chance to destroy it, whereas it is implied that an elven character in the same position (such as Elrond) would have destroyed it. Maybe this is just the wisdom of Elrond being shown, of course - after all, elven characters are not entirely without weakness, seen by the temper rashness of fiery Fëanor in the Silmarillion, or even of Galadriel in her being tempted by the rings. But there is a certain 'weakness of men' implied: they great kings of men gave in to the allure of the power and riches offered by the rings, and thus fell under it's power and became wraiths, entirely subject to Sauron; the elves did not - so maybe even under Sauron's influence they would have become 'wraith-like' too.

On the one hand, doubtful, as the three rings, Nenya, Narya and Vilya, were made without Sauron's commission - but then again, they were made when the Celebrimbor and the Mirdain (sorry not to do the little thing over the i - npt exactly sure how to on this computer...) were under the influence of 'Annatar', and were linked inextricably with the other rings and the One Ring itself - and so, if they had kept them on, they would probably have become wraithlike, like the Men. Who knows? Maybe they would have reacted differently and would actually have been less affected by it, or would have been able to resist the seductive pull to submission to the One Ring - but then again, maybe not. But they did, after all, take of the rings - and thus plan foiled!

...although as Raynor puts it, if they had, "He would have comanded everything, forever". Uh huh. And perfect quotage there to prove it.

Hope this didn't just come out as a ramble - I'm also a new member (first post - huzzah!) :)

Lai

[Farael]

Just a side note re: elves becoming wraiths.... I was just finishing my first reading of Lord Of The Rings.... in English, that is, fourth over all. But my first time through the appendixes and I happened to stumble upon something rather useful. It seems that, in spite of Sauron's designs, dwarves were rather resilient to the effects of the seven rings and they did not turn into wraiths. Now, that does not necessarily mean that elves would not either, after all dwarves and elves are rather opposite to each other, but it does show you that there is at least a chance that they would not.

Other than that Raynor has done an excelent job yet again.

[narfforc]

And the fact that Aule the Maker had made the Dwarves indommitable to the will of others.

[Jimmylew]

So lets just say that the Elves never made the Three Rings. They would have never found out that Sauron had made the One and wouldnt have heard him say the Ring Spell.

They would have used the other 16 rings, (Which were all the same, were they not?) and eventually fell under the dominion of the One. So was Sauron just planning on ruling the 16 Elves that had the rings? Or would he have ruled them all? Or would he have ruled everything that was wrought with the rings etc?

Sorry I am just trying to get my head around what was Sauron banking on.

[narfforc]

Well sixteen elves never had the rings, seven went to the dwarves and were virtually useless, and nine went to men, and he had them under control in the end anyway. If those sixteen had been given to elves then there would be no Nazgul, and I doubt very seriously that elves would have sucumbed to the effects of the rings as quickly as men. This brings us to which elves would Sauron give the rings to, name sixteen elves of major importance in The Second Age of Middle-earth that could do any damage to the Last Alliance, Sauron thought of only his own desires in the real world and could/would not have understood the elven leaders desires, I think that even if the Three had not been made, then any ring given to Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond, Celebrimbor or Gil-galad would have been sussed, I cannot see the elves being duped so easily, this would then only nine.

[Jimmylew]

Oh yeah I know that, but just as Sauron put on the One Ring the 16 rings were in Eregion with the Elves. So he wouldn't have needed to wage war to regain the rings if the elves hadn't sussed him out.

[Lalwendë]

It begs the question of whether the Rings were made specifically for certain races. One one hand (not an intentional pun ;)) Gandalf was not an Elf but was able to wear one the Elven rings, but on the other hand, the Ring Verse seems to imply that the rings were created for specific races. And they did seem to work in certain ways according to those races which bore them; the rings of Men worked on their lust for power and immortality, the rings of Dwarves on their lust for Gold and treasure (I think each ring was associated with a horde).

[davem]

It begs the question of whether the Rings were made specifically for certain races. One one hand (not an intentional pun ;)) Gandalf was not an Elf but was able to wear one the Elven rings, but on the other hand, the Ring Verse seems to imply that the rings were created for specific races. And they did seem to work in certain ways according to those races which bore them; the rings of Men worked on their lust for power and immortality, the rings of Dwarves on their lust for Gold and treasure (I think each ring was associated with a horde).

Its possible. Of course, its also possible that the Rings brought out/enhanced the 'faults' in each race. Most likely they were designed by Elves for Elves.

(On another board someone mentioned the odd 'coincidence' that Tolkien died is 1973. 1=the One Ring, 9=the 9 Rings for Men, 7=the 7 Rings for the Dwarves & 3=the 3 Rings for the Elves. I suppose one could further point out that TH was published in 1937. )

[yavanna II]

It begs the question of whether the Rings were made specifically for certain races. One one hand (not an intentional pun ;)) Gandalf was not an Elf but was able to wear one the Elven rings, but on the other hand, the Ring Verse seems to imply that the rings were created for specific races. And they did seem to work in certain ways according to those races which bore them; the rings of Men worked on their lust for power and immortality, the rings of Dwarves on their lust for Gold and treasure (I think each ring was associated with a horde).

The Ring verse as you call it, I think, was made after the One was made, discovered, and disperesed

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throneIn the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

And did the Elves of Eregion know Sauron's plan--the dominion over the other races thing? Sauron, aka Annatar, told them that they make ME as fair as Valinor and/or Eressea, but I don't remember reading that he told them that they needed the help of other races (correct me if I'm wrong here).