What if Smaug the dragon lived?

[lomion]

Do you think it would have made any difference in the war? I bet he could take care of Minus Tirith pretty quick.

[Rose Cotton]

If Smaug had lived the end of the Hobbit would have been really different. On the other hand I don't think he would have lasted long. Remember he still has that weak spot.

[Thingol]

"Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valor of Durin's folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting as we say in Middle Earth"
The Return of the King, Appendix A

If Sauron had regained the ring he probably would have gained the ability to control Smaug and any other of the evil entities from the 1st age, at least to some degree. Gandalf obviously thought that Sauron would have used Smaug to attack Eriador and destroy Rivendell. I tend to agree with Gandalf, Smaug would have been a terrible weapon against the last opposition to Sauron. He would have burned the forests and destroyed any resistance.

[lomion]

I don't think Smaug would take much convincing...if there was enough gold and jewels to be had.

[Maeglin]

Yep, I'm not quite comfortable with the thought of Sauron controling Smaug. I picture dragons as their own masters (with except for the enslaved) and very strong kinds of those, indeed. But, was Smaug the last dragon in middle-earth?

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Maeglin ]

[Legolas]

True, dragons were their own masters, but Smaug's will wouldn't have been much of an opponent to Sauron.

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Dáin Ironfoot]

Sauron would have controlled him. Why? Because Morgoth bred dragons for evil and to serve him, Sauron was his second-in-command and survived, therefore smaug would serve him. I think Gandalf couls have stood against smaug

[lomion]

I guess if Legolas could shoot a winged Nazgul out of the air, ANY of the elves would have seen the bare patch in Smaugs chest. After all, elves could see very good.

[Carannillion]

I don't think Sauron would have needed the Ring to make Smaug fight the free peoples. A slap on the bottom and a 'there are riches beyond your imagining' would probably have set him off.

As for killing Smaug, maybe not ANY elf could find that weak spot, but a lot of them. Also, let's not forget Elrond here, either. Or Glorfindel. Elf Lords, one of them wielding a Ring of Power, the other just returning from Aman after having dealt with a Balrog...

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I think, since Smaug had probably worked with Sauron before, would have been glad too. Why not, Sauron could just say, "Smaug my old friend, if you do this you can have some of my mithril, or hey go get our old friend Durin's Bane, I can't, I don't have a body." Anyway, I think Smaug would have happily worked with (not for) Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

When did Sauron and Smaug work together before? I thought that Smaug was born and bred in the Withered Heath long after Sauron had been overthrown and unbodied by the Last Alliance.
I may be wrong that's just the impression that I had.

[Silver Dragon]

I'm not so sure that Smaug surviving the Hobbit would have made much of a difference...I think the only reason he was able to wreck Esgaroth so much was because only a couple archers stayed to defend it...whereas Minas Tirith would have probably put up more of a fight...if Sauron could convince Smaug to fly so far from his hoard...

[Meneltarmacil]

Remember that Sauron still was not as powerful as Morgoth. He could control orcs, but things like dragons were way out of his league.

[Halbarad]

One of Smaug's most potent weapons was fear. The men of Esgaroth were terrified of him. After all if he destroyed Dale then Esgaroth would be no problem. Powerful, yes. Even Glaurung was killed by a single, determined man. All it would take if Bard had missed would have been a determined and courageous opponent, although this may have taken a while.
However, if Smaug had not been killed then there would not have been the battle of 5 armies and the elves of Mirkwood would not have been on as good terms with the men and Dain would not rule under the mountain. Eriador would have been overrun with orcs too. Smaug would have only been another threat on a large list. With the ring Sauron would have controlled Smaug. As the Necromancer? Probably not.

[Elfstone]

If Smaug had lived things would likely have turned out very differently. If Bard misses his shot and dies at Esgaroth the dragon almost surely kills Thorin and company, including Bilbo. The Ring would either have fallen to Smaug or been lost again, at least for a short while until the Deceiver tracks it down. Smaug, fully active again for the first time in ages, likely repairs his armor, removing his one glaring weakness.

Yes, things would have turned out much differently if there was an axis of Smaug in the north, Saruman in the center, and Sauron in the east. Much differently indeed.

[Osse]

My i just ask, in reply to an earlier post;
Who said Sauron did not have a body?

Saruman in PJ's FOTR.

I was under the impression that he could take form late in the War Of the Ring, but he chose to be clad in his form of The Great Eye. He could not be clad in any form that appeared fair to Men or Elves, but he could take form. Instances in the texts support this.

Back to the point; if Smaug had not been slain or the Quest of Erebor undertaken, Sauron would not have had to do much to get him into the fray. He would have easily convinced Smaug that he could pile riches and have some fun--and a fully grown dragon on the loose would have been disasterous; Laketown would have been gone, and Smaug (with the help of Saurons Dol Guldur forces) could have easily destroyed the Elves of Mirkwood. Lorien and Imlardris would then be open to full assault-- Gondor would not have stood long, and the ring would have been found by an orc rather than Bilbo and eventually gotten onto the finger of it's master. If the Quest of Erebor had not succeeded, then there would have been no War of The Ring, just ravaging and destruction. Sauron certainly would have employed Smaug into his service; either wittingly or unwittingly.

Osse

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Finwe]

Gandalf said that it was good fortune that brought him and Thorin Oakenshield together in that tavern, and it was good fortune. If the Quest of Erebor had not been successful, then there wouldn't have been an Eriador to return to. Even if Smaug didn't join the fight in Gondor or Mordor, he could have completely destroyed Eriador and left nothing for the Host of the West to return to.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I agree Finwe. Gandalf himself thought that.

[Meneltarmacil]

I am still sticking to what I said earlier. Sauron, even when he had the Ring, would not be able to make a dragon do anything. If he could, he would have used them at the Battle of Dagorlad.
Oh, and another thing...
Smaug (with the help of Saurons Dol Guldur forces) could have easily destroyed the Elves of Mirkwood.
Remember the bare patch in his chest? If Bard could hit that with perfect accuracy, an elven archer could dispatch Smaug within the first 10 seconds.

[Silver Dragon]

Agree with Meneltarmacil.

[Finwe]

But you have to remember, that Sauron had remarkable powers of persuasion. He could get just about anyone to do anything, especially a power-hungry and greedy "person" like Smaug. Besides, who can resist the temptation of causing untold amounts of death and destruction? I certainly can't! smilies/evil.gif

[Lord of Angmar]

Well one thing is for sure: if Smaug had lived then the Lord of the Rings would be quite a different book. Smaug could have, for one thing, killed Bilbo and taken the Ring. He could then have eaten the Ring or kept it with his hoard, or returned it to Sauron. Either way Sauron would probably have regained it. And Bilbo may not have returned from his adventure, meaning Frodo would never become his heir!

Supposing that Bilbo had returned though, and that Smaug had not been killed and the Fellowship of the Ring had still set out years later, I would think that Sauron would be able to persuade Smaug to help him. If there's one thing we can learn from the Dark Lords it is that they will promise practically anything to a useful ally. A new hoard of gold? An entire kingdom? Smaug could certainly have done a good deal of damage, but I imagine he would be taken down by an archer or perhaps an eagle eventually.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

But Sauron was the most powerful being left on Earth (I dont want anyone giving me a Tom Bombadil-related answer here ok!) He was clearly more powerful than Smaug so why would he have huge difficulty in persuading Smaug?

[Thalimenel]

Even if Smaug was still alive during the war, you have forgotten the wak spot. If a manish Archer could shoot it that well, and elvish Archer could have done times and times better.

[Finwe]

But we're forgetting one important factor here. Bard was TOLD about the dragon's weak spot by the thrush, he didn't spot it on his own. And realistically speaking, even for Elves, night vision is worse than day vision, so unless Smaug was flying overhead in broad daylight, which he wouldn't do, it would have been very difficult for an Elven archer to shoot him at precisely the exact spot. Smaug was intelligent, he wouldn't have flown in broad daylight because that would be too much visiblity, and, it's a lot less frightening. I don't know about you, but I would find a dragon far more intimidating at night than during the day, since my vision would be hampered. So unless Roac, or the thrush, started running some sort of messenger service, advertising Smaug's weakness to all of Eriador, it would have been quite difficult to take him down.

[Marroc Underhill]

Two things are possible. 1. He would have taken as much of his hoarded treasure and fled as far north as possible after the battle to make sure no other dwarves got up the nerves to try a second time to reclaim the Lonely Montain. 2. Sauron would have bribed into his service with gold and gems and as much precious materials as he had to. He would be flying high with the Nazgul and there Fell Beasts by the time of the Two Towers. If he flew with the Nazgul, Gondor would not have lasted as long as it had. So either two things would have happened, he would never be seen again except for the unlucky traveler every now and then, or he would be burning Gondor to the ground.

[Morgoth the Great]

perhaps we are all missing a rather obvious question: how did he survive? perhaps he might of killed Bilbo immediatly, thus Bard would not know of his one week spot, and Smaug would of survived, along with now owning the Ring. but what would he do when he had the Ring? it wouldnt take long to corrput his mind, and he would therefore be a lot harder to persuade by Sauron. another scenario is that Bard missed, and was slain. his town is then burned to ashes, and Smaug returns to his treasure, without anyone causing a threat to him. What would happen to Bilbo and Company then? Perhaps it would not be so different, and Bilbo would perish none the less. Smaug would easily be tempted by Sauron, but Smaug couldnt be the last dragon left in Middle Earth(please correct me if i am wrong there) and therefore if Sauron felt he needed the Dragons, surely Smaug would not of proved such a big difference, as he would be easy to take down with the keen eyes of an elf, and maybe the other dragons were more of a threat

[Socialist]

I just had a crazy idea.

What if Smaug kept the One Ring from Sauron and Sauron had to fight him for it or something? I don't know.

[steve]

If Smaug was not destroyed in the Hobbit it could and would have caused many many problems for the alliance against Mordor. Just of the few things that could have been done if Sauron has Smaug under his controll... As mentioned the destruction of Eriador. Also, smaug could have been used, as well as the ringwraiths to kill frodo and the fellowship. Also, even if the elvs could see Smaug's weakspot, what is to say that they would see it before he has the entire forests of Lothlorien or Mirkwood ablaze? Smaug could have been used to destroy Fangorn forest, therefor insuring the survival of isengard and the destruction of Rohan (as sad as that is to say) Then there is the inevitable, Smaug at Minas Tirith. But yet, these are only if Sauron would do the obvious thing with Smaug... if Sauron had controll of Smaug and was smart he would do something along the lines of destroying Dunharrow after the evacuation of Edoras, or Destroying Dol Amaroth and the outlaying Gondorian citys preverntion any reinforcments reaching Minas tirith. Who knows, Smaug could have saved Dol-Guldur or stoped the advancing armies outside of Mordor's black gates therefor making the nazgul and or any other dark being sauron wanted, to stop frodo at mount doom... and these are just a few sugeustions

[steve]

I am putting another reply to so I can put Great emphasys on this. All of you are stating about smaug's weak spot. What makes you think that Sauron would not do something to cover that spot up? Sauron could just as easily have his smithies forge some sort of breaste plate for Smaug's weak spot

[Morgoth the Great]

good point steve. I dont think that Sauron would of sent Smaug to kill the Rinbearer in the Shire. Also, Smaug possessed the same arrogance that was almost Glaurungs demise. would he of thought himself above the Ringwraiths, and in so, become more of a liability to Sauron?

[Firnantoonion]

what if he made Smaug the 'horse'for the witch-king, I would like to see that happen smilies/biggrin.gif (and yes, i believe that Sauron could control Smaug)

[Lord of Angmar]

If Smaug had helped Sauron, I doubt he would have been anyone's 'horse'. Dragons are their own masters.

[Firnantoonion]

It was just a (ridiculous) thought wich suddenly came up by me.... but imagine:
witch-king: left!
smaug: no, right, there are the jewels!
witch-king: no left
etc. etc. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ulmo's Wave]

ok, so let's say that Sauron DOES decide to try to control Smaug. It has been said or emplied that Sauron's biggest assets are his ways of persuasion and putting fear into his enemies. However, how esactly would he do this to a dragon SO FAR AWAY. With orcs? No way. Nazgul? I don't even think the Nazgul could put much fear into a dragon. I think Sauron himself would have had to step foward. However i highly doubt this would ever happen. I think Sauron had much bigger problems than playing with an arrogant dragon. For one, his attacks on Lothlorien were failing. Two, he was being pushed out of Dol Guldur by the Council.

But one more thing,Smaug was an advantage to Sauron even though he wasn't in alliance with him. Think about it, Smaug had kept a lot of Northern Wilerland under pressure for many many year up until the few years before the Thorin and Company set out. I think people were more concerned with Smaug at the time. After all, Sauron was several hundreds of miles, and a mountain range away. But Smaug was a neighbor.
I like to think of Smaug as i do Shelob. They were just other things to keep people busy while Sauron did his thing.

[Loke Aesir]

I just noticed that none here as far as I can see mentioned the fact that if Smaug lived, he could possibly have singlemouthedly have destroyed the Ring... and in that way, since Bilbo actually carried the Ring TO HIM, he could have made quite a treath to Sauron...

[Firefoot]

Alright, let's just say that Smaug lives and somehow Bilbo gets home. He gives the Ring to Frodo etc, etc, and you get to the council of Elrond. Since Smaug lives there is no King under the Mountain. Gloin and Gimli are therefore not at the council. So who is the ninth person in the Fellowship? Another Elf? Also this would also mean that Balin and co. probably would not have set out to get Moria back. How would this change the course of the Fellowship? Would the Balrog have been awakened in the first place? If not, Gandalf would not have been lost. How about in Lothlorien? If they had had Gandalf and no dwarf would they have had more welcome? And all this is assuming Smaug did not go after the elves of the woodland realm. I don't know why he would but if he did would Aragorn have brought Gollum to them? I think not. Also, Legolas would not have then been at the Council of Elrond. What I'm trying to say is that Smaug living would have completely changed the course of LotR.

I think also that Sauron would have enlisted Smaug's help in the War, and also would have covered up his weak spot. I can hardly see Sauron sending an extremely powerful tool of his into battle with an obvious weak spot.

[Finwe]

Ulmo's Wave, you said it yourself. Sauron could have easily persuaded Smaug to "follow," or rather, "work with" him. He was silver-tongued to persuade Elves to work with him, do you honestly think that it would be all that hard to persuade a Dragon to help you plunder, pillage, and cause murder and mayhem?

[symestreem]

Sauron did nothing to entice Smaug to help him when he was in Dol Guldur. Would/could he have when he was in Mordor? And Smaug didn't know about the Ring. If he had killed Bilbo, perhaps the corpse would have just lain there. Smaug might even have temporarily discombobulated the Nazgul if they came to get it.

[Armetiel]

from UT (Gandalfs POV) You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The kindom under the Mountain and the strong Med of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Suaron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hlls, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon, Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug.

[Noxomanus]

I think Sauron could have made an alliance with Smaug (or make Smaug believe this was the case but in reality using him.)

The idea of Smaug getting the Ring from Bilbo is very interesting....would a Dragon make a powerful Ringbearer? Probably yes. And imagine the damage an invisible Dragon could do! smilies/eek.gif Would any creature have been able to carry the Ring? I guess this is the case but the idea of a Dragon,Ent,Eagle,Spider or ordinary animal carrying the Ring seems a bit fantastic,but you never know. smilies/smile.gif

[Armetiel]

^but could Smaug use the ring to make himself invisible...(or should I phrase this as, would the ring fit on his claw lol)

[Noxomanus]

Well,The Ring fitted it's size to it's bearer so I'm sure it would have adjusted it's size to Smaugs claw. That would have possibly made it large enough for Bilbo to use it as a hoop! smilies/smile.gif

[Iarhen]

I think youre overrating Smaug’s power. Yes, he was a dragon, could incinerate great bodies of land, etc. But you’re forgetting the strength of his enemies. For instance, as it has been said before. If Smaug attacked Rivendell, not only would he have to deal with the difficulty of the strategic position that Rivendell has. Second, the power of Vilya protecting the land (if it was a ring made to stop decay, then my guess is that even though Smaug’s fires would make grievous harm on the valley and the citadel, Vilya would end up repairing it). Plus, dealing with Glorfindel, Elrond, etc., and all of the elven lords that lived there. And if he attacked the Woodland Realm, Smaug would have to deal with the terribly accurate elven archers. Lothlórien? Well… not only having to deal with the White Witch (and Nenya and the “fences guarding Lorien” smilies/wink.gif a strong opponent also in mental matters (imagine, if Galadriel can see what Sauron thinks, what can the woman do against the weaker mind of Smaug???), but with the armies of Lorien and the archers. A piece of cake? Not at all. He could make griveous harás on all these lands. BUT he would die assuredly.

[Lost One]

Back in the First Age the non-flying Glaurung demolished Nargothrond, by anyone's reckoning a harder job than Rivendell or Lorien. True, it was as part of an assault by Morgoth, but he was the crucial, major weapon. If Smaug had attacked Lorien along with the forces from Dol Guldur, say, the Golden Wood would have been charred ruins. Tolkien has Gandalf assert that the dragon was a huge threat to Rivendell, and Gandalf does not say exaggerated or unlikely things (to put this moderately). Also, as has been pointed out, the knowledge of Smaug's weakspot was very limited, and only a unique chain of events allowed Bard to succeed: it was HIS fate to do this - like Frodo, or like Merry and Eowyn against the Witch-king. People are probably overstating elvish eyesight: Legolas can see and hit the Nazgul's steed - hitting a specific spot on it would be another matter. And noticing a slightly different looking spot, realising it just might be a bit weaker (rather than a bit stronger) than the rest, and then hitting it would have been even harder in the time available. With hindsight, while writing LOTR and integrating it with the Hobbit, Tolkien charaterised Smaug as potentially a mighty threat to the forces of good. It seems a bit perverse to ignore this.

[Lenwe]

ok ok so lets say smaug lived and he had the ring and he helped sauron,what would happen if the balrog from moria attacked lorien from Left side and smaug attacked from top???

[Lenwe]

And lets say this was happening during the battle of pelannor fields and the balrog didnt die :| and forces of orcs attacked lorien from dol guldor

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien has Gandalf assert that the dragon was a huge threat to Rivendell, and Gandalf does not say exaggerated or unlikely things

Spot on, Lost One. smilies/smile.gif Gandalf's quote from Unfinished Tales has, I think, been given before on this thread, but it bears repeating:

You may think that Rivendell was out of [Sauron's] reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to reagin the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug.

Gandalf obviously thought that, with Smaug in residence at the Lonely Mountain, Sauron would be able to move his force through the northern passes to attack Rivendell. And he was concerned that, if that happened, it might fall. Also, he clearly envisaged that Sauron would be able to enlist Smaug to his cause, to terrible effect. Let's trust Gandalf on this one, shall we? smilies/wink.gif

As for Smaug's bare patch, I agree that, lucky shots aside, this would be of little avail to those under attack from him without Bilbo's Inside Information. And, in any event, who's to say that, if Smaug fell in with Sauron's forces, it would not be spotted and patched up?

[Loke Aesir]

What if Smaug had toasted Bilbo while Bildo wore the ring? If he had done it thoroughly enough, the Ring would have been destroyed.
And then there would, needless to say, be no Sauron to speak of. smilies/smile.gif

[Finwe]

Didn't Gandalf say that there were no dragons left in which the old fire burned hot enough to melt the Rings of Power? I doubt that even the fire of Ancalagon the Black could have melted the One Ring. It was just too resistant to destruction, in any other places except Mount Doom.

[Loke Aesir]

Yes, he said so, but that was after Smaug had died, so you never know...

[Finwe]

Ancalagon was one of the greatest Dragons of all. I don't think that Smaug would have been able to do something Ancalagon wouldn't.

[deal_with_it]

Do you think it would have made any difference in the war? I bet he could take care of Minus Tirith pretty quick.

If Bards arrow goes astray, Smaug destroys Lake Town. The dwarves (via the Ravens) hear Smaug is coming back and are forced to leave. They return to the Iron Hills. Bilbo and Gandalf return to the West. There is no Battle of Five Armies. There is no rebuilding of Dale or of Erebor.

When the Battle of Dale occurs, Lake Town may have been rebuilt, but without the aid of the Dwarves, the men are quickly defeated. If Smaug helps, its a quick battle. Logically, Thranduil's kingdom is the next logical target. I don't see Thorin or Dain sending aid from the Iron Hills.

The Battle of Mirkwood - Here's where it can take a turn for good or bad. I'll keep it short. The wood elves, like the Lorien elves, use the woods as there defense and can easily defend against the Easterlings, also the wood elves are likely better archers than Bard of Lake Town was. If they have knowledge of Smaug's bald patch, they could in effect stop Smaug right there at the eaves of Mirkwood. The Easterlings would probably flee the woods in fear.

On the other hand Smaug could make quick work of the Elven Palace and burn the forest to ashes, creating another Desolation in the immediate area. The fleeing elves would get picked off by spiders (who stay out of the fight) and flee to Rivendell and Lorien. At that point the Eastern Army would proceed to conquer the lands east of the Misty Mountains.

[Smaug]

Well,The Ring fitted it's size to it's bearer so I'm sure it would have adjusted it's size to Smaugs claw. That would have possibly made it large enough for Bilbo to use it as a hoop! smilies/smile.gif

Hmm, I didn't think this slight 'side-question' I have deserved a new thread as it would produce little debate or general discussion on its own, but am I right in thinking Smaug and other creatures that are very dissimilar to humans in physical shape could have worn the ring and used its power to command creatures far and wide in Middle Earth (including the Dark Lord)? Following on, could any creature at all use the ring of power? I mean in the Hobbit, say Bilbo had lost the ring in Mirkwood and one of those wild deer they often encountered retrieved it and picked it up, could the deer use its immense power?! Lol. Imagine a single cute deer commanding Middle Earth flanked by nasty Orcs and Balrogs…

[Farael]

Well, maybe I should let other, better versed in Tolkien lore 'downers reply to this point, but if you will forgive a lack of textual evidence here's what happens (according to my understanding):

The ring is not quite an unlimited source of power. It is said that the ring gives people (or hobbits, or maiar, or deers) power according to their stature. So a hobbit will probably have little use of the ring for anything else than dissapearing unless this hobbit also spent most of his lifetime learning how to wield the powers of the ring. And it's still likely that even then he would not be able to unleash it's full power.

On the other hand, a powerful elf would be able to gain more power from it, but probably not as much power as a Maiar such as Gandalf or Sauron himself. With your example of a deer, the deer might have some super-natural powers, but by no means it'd be an allmighty little cute deer (yet I see how amusing that could be :D )

Also, the deer will probably lack the intelligence to keep the ring, as it tends to slip off when it wants to change masters, and it's likely that the Deer would not know how to avoid it from slipping onto a river or something.

But the last part is mere speculation.

[Elu Ancalime]

The main thing I think of is Dragon-fire, and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell

He would have impacted the war in the north much. Although Minas Tirith still would probably have outlasted the Battle of the Pellenor, Dol Guldur might have succeded in destroying Lorien (thinkabout it-dragon fire and forest, there would have been a difference) and the Wilderland would be taken. Sauron would till be defeated, and the orc armies would...whatever....but since dragons are independent, I think Smaug might have settled down somewhere in the Hithiglir, maybe some hole into Moria? Which might have made for another book....
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