Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Sardy]

Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring? Surely, as his "specialty" and area of study was ring-lore, he, perhaps moreso than anyone else, would have nowledge of the ring's abilty to bend the will of its user to its master... Did Saruman realize this, in his pursuit of the Ring? Or, was he arrogant enough to believe that he could bend the Ring's will to is own?

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?

[MatthewM]

I believe that Saruman was so obsessed with gaining power and had dropped so much from the original cause of the Istari that he did think if he attained the One Ring he could master it for his own.

[Gil-Galad]

He was entranced with power like the old Maiar that became the Balrogs and other demons of Melkor.

Remember, Sauron was a Maiar. Saruman was a Maiar. if Sauron could be pulled to the power of the ring then what is stopping other Maiar like him?

[the phantom]

Let's bring this to the real world- do you personally believe the Ring would master you?

Oh sure, most people's first reaction is to exclaim "Yes, of course!" because you've been taught to say so. Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and all those other smart people said the Ring would master everyone, and the story revolves around the undefeatable and unconquerable Ring. It's just accepted as fact. But really, who did the Ring conquer? Answer- two little hobbits. Some of you may want to toss in Isildur, but he died so quickly after swiping it. Do we really know what would've happened to him?

Do we know for an absolute fact that the Ring would turn Gandalf into a Dark Lord? He said it, but if you've read LOTR you know that Gandalf was not always right. Had he done experiments with the Ring? Had he tested it on other wizards and watched them turn into Dark Lords? No, of course not.

The whole "The Ring corrupts everyone" thing is not an absolute total unquestionable fact within Middle Earth.

Now seriously, I want you to imagine in real life- if someone had a shoe and claimed that the evil that dwelt in it would overcome your mind and will would you really believe it? Let's say you knew it had overthrown the minds of a couple of your friends. Even then, would you really believe that the shoe could master YOU?

If your answer is "yes", then I guess you're just not like me. I remember talking in another thread about how I identified with Boromir, because like him I would not have believed that the Ring could conquer me. I am who I am. No piece of jewelry can change me. Give the Ring to me, and I'll harness it's power and kick Sauron's behind!

Personally, I think it takes a very very rare person to believe that he doesn't have the strength of will to conquer a small piece of metal. Evidently I don't have that type of wisdom, and certainly not that much humility. Lucky for the good guys in LOTR, there were several of these rare weirdo individuals running around.

Now to Saruman- who does he strike you as? A confident-borderline-arrogant Boromir/Phantom type person, or a humble Gandalf/Frodo sort of chap? (btw, if it matters yours truly came up as "Saruman" on a LOTR personality test a while back ;) )

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm....a trickier question than it looks. The obvious answer is "yes, of course Saruman thought he could master it? Why else would he have sought it out?" But then another thought occurs to me -- he probably really could have "mastered" it insofar as he could have taken it and used its power to throw down Sauron and set himself up in the Dark Lord's place. Of course, he would then himself have been "mastered" by the Ring insofar as he would have become the new Dark Lord, but even that is really being self-mastered insofar as it was his own selfish desire to be a Power that would have led him to take the Ring in the first place...

So was Saruman really all that wrong in his assumption that he could master the Ring? Galadriel and Gandalf both say tha they could take the Ring and use it to defeat Sauron (not what Sauron would want, so clearly they are saying they can take the Ring 'away' from his will) -- I account that a form of mastery. Of course, they also argue that the Ring would pervert and twist them into figures of corruption and evil, but they also state that it would have worked on their own desires to do this -- so once more, it was their own innermost desires and flaws that would have overmastered them, not really the Ring.

(Is this why Bombadil was immune to the Ring? He was so pure, so entirely devoide of desire for control or sway that it had nothing to work on? That is why Bombadil describes himself as "Master" -- because he is his own Master?)

So, I guess I stick with the obvious answer, but in a more complicated way: Yes, Saruman thought he could master the Ring, because he could master it; that is, he could wrench it from Sauron's control and use it to overthrow the Dark Lord. But then he would have been mastered by himself, at the Ring's prompting...

[Boromir88]

phantom it's good to see ya back here for a little bit. I seriously was beginning to go through withdrawal. :rolleyes:

I like the angle you approach this from. I'll still take Gandalf's advice in that over time the Ring would dominate and control you...aye even Tolkien said that in the one moment before the Cracks of Doom, the Ring's influence is at it's greatest and no one had the strength of will to resist it. :D But, I like the alternative perspective you have created, it was interesting and insightful to read.

Of course the Ring isn't this all corrupting force, if someone had the right mindset, and perhaps knew more about the Ring, they would be able to at least resist and hold off it's proddings for a while (I think that Boromir did this for a rather long period of time). Also another question is whether the Ring would really want to be in the possession of that individual. For example, what would the Ring want to do in the possession of a fox for? How is that going to help it achieve it's goal? How will that help Sauron? So, also I think there is a certain selectiveness about the Ring, it goes after the individuals it feels it can get a grasp over (Boromir and Gollum for example).

Now onto Saruman...ahh Saruman a truly interesting villain he is.
Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?
I'd say so:
"We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bid our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be any real change in our designs, only in our means."
[...]
"And why not Gandalf?" he whispered. "Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could cammand that then the Power would pass to us...~The Council of Elrond
Saruman really started this process of wanting to 'ape' Sauron, he wanted in essense to be Sauron...and be the knew 'Ruler.' He wanted the power and Sauron knew what Saruman was up to:
But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.~The Black Gate Opens

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?
That may also be a possibility. Certainly I think if Saruman was unable to actually get possession of the Ring he was attempting to create his own ring of power:
He wore a ring on his finger and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making~Home VII: Treason of Isengard
The problem with this quote is that, in the final publication of LOTR, only 'He wore a ring on his finger' is written, the rest of it Tolkien removed, as the Treason of Isengard was an earlier draft. But, also this appears in The Foreward of LOTR:
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.
Now, this is Tolkien explaining why he didn't feel like the War in LOTR, was like any of the 'Real Wars,' but if we take this 'if it was like the real wars scenario' than we can see that Saruman was studying into ring-lore and was trying to figure out how to create his own ring of power. But, he had some 'missing links in his study' and supposedly only Mordor held those missing links to Saruman creating a true Ring of Power...as in one that could be like Sauron's.

[Mithadan]

I agree that there is no doubt Saruman thought he could master the Ring. A related question is could he have mastered it and how fast? Clearly Sauron was not alarmed when he believed that Saruman had secured the Ring. Look at his response when Pippin is revealed in the Palantir:

Tell Saruman this dainty is notfor him. I will send for it at once.

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it, at least not quickly. To recover it, he sent one Nazgul. Although Gandalf believed that Saruman and Orthanc might have the power to resist a Nazgul, Sauron seemed to think a Nazgul was enough to coerce Saruman with the Ring!

The answer here seems to rest in the fact that it would take time to learn to use the Ring. I am trying unsuccessfully to find the reference but am unable to. Somewhere, Gandalf states that after Frodo claimed the Ring in the Cracks of Doom, if it had not been destroyed the Nazgul would likely have feigned obeiscence to Frodo only to later seize the Ring or bring Frodo to Sauron. Frodo could not learn to control the Ring rapidly. Even Saruman would need some time to learn the use and secrets of the Ring. But what of the principle of the Ring giving its wearer power in proportion to the wearer's stature? If this is the case, Saruman's power with the Ring, particularly given his study of the matter, should have given him significant power. There seems to be a disconnect here. Shouldn't Sauron have been much more concerned?

[Mister Underhill]

I interpret the "dainty" line to mean the Hobbit, himself, not the Ring. Saruman, a former confidant of Gandalf and the White Council with some insight into their mindset and methods, might have some inkling that a Hobbit of the Fellowship would bear the Ring and thus have some hope of capturing the Ring-bearer with his raiding party. Sauron, on the other hand, knowing that the Ring had almost certainly reached Rivendell, would be likely to presume that someone there -- Gandalf or Elrond, probably -- had taken possession of it. Still, there's nothing like a long, slow "discussion" with a Hobbit who might have inside info, perhaps followed by nice dinner with your special guest (simmered in butter and seasoned, mayhap).

[Mithadan]

Then why refer to the "dainty" as "it"?

[Mister Underhill]

The same dehumanizing impulse that leads the predator to view his prey as an "it", the way Gollum does with Bilbo: "Is it nice, my preciousss? Is it juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?"

[Mithadan]

OK let's review what Sauron knew and what Tolkien, directly or indirectly, implies.

Sauron knew the Ring, carried by Frodo, reached Rivendell. He probably knew through spies that Frodo did not return to the Shire, though this is speculation. He knows Gandalf reached Caradhras after Gandalf conjures a fire. He knows a group passes through Moria and that the group includes Hobbits because the Orcs of Moria, whether they were free agents or not (unlikely) would pass this information on to the Mordor Orcs. He knows the Fellowship reaches Lorien. He is actively hunting for it when the Fellowship leaves and his Orcs have specific instructions to capture and not loot Hobbits. Grishnakh apparently knows about the Ring and tries to find it on Merry and Pippin. Sauron at the very least suspected that Frodo was still bearing the Ring.

Now, what does Tolkien imply? He makes much of the fact that Pippin revealed he was a Hobbit but not his name and was not questioned by Sauron about the Fellowship or the location of the Ring. Sauron was so excited he forgot to ask these questions. So excited about a Hobbit? No. He thought Saruman had found the Ring. He was sending for "it". He likely assumed that Saruman was revealing to him that he had captured the Ring a Hobbit (Frodo) by torturing him and forcing him to face the Red Eye. Or He may have believed Saruman was merely having some fun with his prisoner. I would be willing to reach and accept the concept that Sauron may have believed Saruman was still loyal, though I doubt Sauron would so lack the signature paranoia of dictators. This could explain why he sent only one Nazgul. But I am convinced that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring.

[Boromir88]

I can see Mr. Underhill's side of the argument. If we look at the quote in full:
'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"~The Palantir
Before this moment Pippin tells Sauron that he's a Hobbit. What's interesting is that I don't think Sauron ever seen a Hobbit before this...he hadn't even heard of them until Gollum mentioned them. So, when Sauron comes to see Pippin, he's taken back and laughs. Then after he has his laughs for a while...Wait a moment! (something just came to him that is important) We shall meet again soon.. Sauron sees there is some importance that he might beable to get from this 'hobbit.'

I can further understand Mr. Underhill's argument as Sauron referring to Pippin as 'dainty' (something delectable, delicate...etc) and further dehumanizing him referring to Pippin as 'it,' because when Sauron first sees a hobbit he is filled with laughter...as in 'How is this pathetic creature going to harm me.'

Also, when Pippin is first recovering from the encounter with Sauron he mistakes Gandalf for Saruman:
'It is not for you, Saruman!' he cried in a shrill and toneless voice,' shrinking away from Gandalf. 'I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!'~Voice of Saruman
Pippin mistakes Gandalf for Saruman and shrinks away from him. Now Pippin is in a state of shock at this time, but either:

1) Sauron convinced Pippin that he had something valuable Sauron wanted (and hence Saruman had).

2) Pippin was reacting to what Sauron told him, and shrinks away from Saruman (well whom he believes to be Saruman), and reiterates Sauron's words 'It (or Pippin/he) is not for you, Saruman!'
Mithadan, if we take into account that he only wanted to send one Nazgul to go to Isengard, than I don't think Sauron thought he was going to get the Ring. You may be right, maybe Sauron did not know at this time that Saruman had planned to betray him (eventhough if Grishnakh did say 'Saruman is a fool: a dirty, treacerous fool, but the Eye is on him.'...there still could be some question as to whether Sauron knew what Saruman's plans were at this time. Though Sauron was definitely distrustful of him by this time, when he encounters Pippin in the Palantir). I would think though that if Sauron believed Pippin had the Ring...therefor Saruman had it, wouldn't it be more important to Sauron than just sending one Nazgul? I mean all 9 of them together failed to get the Ring, so I don't know how much faith Sauron would have in sending just one Nazgul into Isengard to get the Ring.

I guess another possibility could be that Sauron believed Saruman had the Ring, and since he had the Hobbit with him, it would prove useful to get both of them (maybe for information as far as what the 'West' was planning?) But, still I think if Sauron believed Saruman had a ring the situation would be more urgent than merely sending 1 Nazgul to go get it...even if Sauron believed Saruman was still his 'servant.'

[the phantom]

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!

And if Saruman tries to keep it, then you know where he stands and you go in force to grab it from him.

And do you really think "this dainty" refers to Pippin? I'm having trouble seeing it. I'm just thinking it would've been written different if that was the case. The quote-
Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once.
So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon". I don't think Sauron was trying to dehumanize (dehobbitize?) Pip by making him an "it".

What is this whole thing about? The Ring. That's what Sauron wanted, that's what Saruman wanted, that's what they were looking for, and that's what they thought they would get by capturing the halfling.

It=Ring

Now, to Mithadan's point-
And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it
Bingo!

This is something that I always like to point out. Sauron was NOT scared by a Maia with his Ring, and that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if Gandalf or Saruman or Galadriel thought they could overthrow Sauron with the Ring, what matters is what Sauron thinks about it, for as the creator of the Ring he obviously knows best on Ring-related matters.
And in his mind, Saruman+Ring = little kid with stick.

[Mister Underhill]

So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon". This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the wings debate reared its head. Surely if Bilbo and Gollum can navigate Gollum's use of 'he', 'ye', and 'it' when referring to Bilbo, not to mention his unusual use of 'we' to refer to himself, Sauron and Saruman wouldn't be pulling a "Who's On First" routine via the palantir. ;)

Nevertheless, Mith has an interesting point about the Mordor orcs. I'd forgotten about them. Did Sauron know that the Ring had entered Lorien? Didn't Haldir's boys wipe out the orc-band sent out of Moria after the Fellowship? This would certainly delay the news heading East, but I'm fuzzy on the timeline. More later if I have time to do some reading...

[Mithadan]

Let's try to add some flesh to the bones here by continuing with the "What did Sauron know" theme and adding "What did Sauron suspect"?

Sauron knows that the last person who definitely had the Ring was Frodo due to the escapade at the Prancing Pony and the incident at Weathertop. He knows Frodo got to Rivendell. At this point, perhaps he is concerned that Elrond will claim it. But months pass without any sign of this happening. He knows Gandalf was involved. Gandalf encountered the Nazgul on Weathertop. He learns Gandalf has left Rivendell and learns generally the composition of the Fellowship due to the events in Moria. So Elrond has not claimed the Ring and Gandalf is not touching it. A group is heading south accompanied by Gandalf. Hobbits are in the group. Sauron's reasoning probably is as follows.

Gandalf is afraid to claim the Ring and Elrond has rejected it. It is going South. To where? Gondor is the logical destination. The Ring is being concealed. A Hobbit had it. Hobbits are weak and allowing a Hobbit to bear the Ring would present the least threat to the West. So a bodyguard is provided for the Hobbit to assist him in bringing the Ring to Gondor.

The Orc raid on Amon Hen specifically targets Hobbits. If Sauron only wanted intelligence it would suffice to capture any member of the Fellowship, not just Hobbits. If he wanted a Hobbit just to "play" with, he could have gotten one from The Shire. Grishnakh knows about the Ring. Sauron clearly thinks the Ring has remained with Frodo. So when a Hobbit is apparently captured by Saruman and (to Sauron's mind) intentionally revealed to him through the Palantir the only logical conclusion is that Sauron believed Saruman had captured the Ring.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Interesting indeed....

Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer.

Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him.

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him.

I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring?

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons).

I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything....

[Mister Underhill]

The orc-raid on Amon Hen was launched primarily by Saruman, though, no? I don't think you can assume that Saruman shared his intel with Sauron; on the contrary in this case. I'm thinking the Mordor orcs were vectored towards the Fellowship by the Nazgûl who Legolas shot down near the river. What's the word on the osanwé link between Sauron and his Nazgûl minions? Would he know what they know (or suspect) as soon as they know it, or do they have to be "within range"?

All this may be bunk. It begs the question of how a raiding party composed of Uruks, Moria, and Mordor orcs came to be formed.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Fordie, who makes some interesting points.

[the phantom]

You use good logic Fordim, but I'm not sure I'm willing to believe the whole concept of Sauron recognizing a Ring-bearer and being able to tell different hobbits apart.

In person, absolutely, you're right. But through the palantir....

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman. That should be an obvious clue that Sauron couldn't tell a fellow Ring-bearer. I mean, he couldn't tell the difference between Saruman and Pippin!

I think the fact that the palantir was involved changes the situation.
This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the the wings debate reared its head.
Well, thank you. :smokin:

[Mister Underhill]

At your service! ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman.

Yeah but he did then see that it was a Hobbit. (And when you pick up the phone you always know exactly who is on the other end of the line I suppose... And when your call display tells you that someone is calling you from your mother's phone, you pick it up and say "To whom am I speaking?" instead of "Hi Mom!") At which point -- knowing, as he does, that a Hobbit (Frodo) is bearing the Ring -- which do you think is the most likely thing to go through Sauron's mind:

1) "Hmmmm, a hobbit. I can't quite make out which one it may be. Perhaps its the Ringbearer. Perhaps it isn't. Oh well, never mind about that now, I'll send a Nazgul to fetch it and look into this later."

or

2) "Hey, a hobbit? Is it the Ringbearing one or not? Hmmmmmm....a bit taller than the one Witchie told me about....not quite so red in the cheeks....younger than Baggins.....no sign of the Ring on his finger or around his neck.....no sense of Ringiness here......nope, it's not Frodo Baggins. But he sure looks like a dainty fellow who could give me some good intel!"

Now I imagine someone is going to argue that the Palantir is somehow not a reliable source of information -- that it was impossible for Sauron to see clearly enough that he could differentiate between Pippin and Frodo. Tosh! In the other instances we have recorded of its use, it was a reliable source of information -- the only time it seems to obscure is when Sauron perverts or dominates it (like with Denethor).

[Mithadan]

I was actually going to bring up the very point that Sir Underhill did, poking a little hole in my own argument for the sake of debate. The room for interpretation is one of the things that make Tolkien's work so compelling. Underhill is quite right. We don't know which group of Orcs had orders to seize Hobbits and run. Presumably, Saruman and Sauron both knew the Ring entered Lorien. Both groups of Orcs were lying in wait. The Mordor Orcs on the east side of Anduin (remember them shooting arrows at the Fellowship as they passed?) and the Moria and Saruman Orcs on the west bank. Sauron's orders may have been "kill them all and bring the bodies home", we don't know.

This is a matter of readers' impressions. My impression was pretty much always been that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring. Others' impressions differ. Absent an express statement on the issue, we can't know. If Tolkien had used a capital "I" in "it" we might know for certain. This isn't determinative. He might have missed or simply not used a capital "I" or an over-zealous editor might have changed it. Has anyone peeked at HoME on this issue? I don't have those volumes with me and really don't have the time to research.

[the phantom]

Think what you will about how much Sauron could see, Fordy, but it is a fact that Sauron's powers/abilities are lesser when using the palantir.

In letter 246 Tolkien says that Aragorn could not have withheld the Ring from Sauron if face to face, and continues on to explain how he was able to "win" the palantir contest despite that.
In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.
Sauron wasn't the rightful owner, so he couldn't wield the palantir perfectly. And on top of that his powers, which would include powers of perception, were greatly dimmed by distance.

I think you should've just stuck with the phone analogy you were using at first. Do you think Sauron could've told the voices of Pippin and Frodo apart on the phone having never heard them before? And really, do you think he could've picked their faces out of a lineup? In person, yes, but just from a photo where there is no physical presence involved? I doubt it. The Nazgul weren't equipped with digital cameras as far as I know. ;)

[Boromir88]

Ai! Ai! So tangling and messy. :D

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!~tp
That still really doesn't make sense. Sauron may not have feared Saruman by using the ring mono-a-mono against him, but he definitely saw a weakness if somebody (especially somebody of significant power) got a hold of the Ring:
If that happened, the new possesor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done sine the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.~Letter 131
Unless Sauron was brainless, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think Sauron would have sent all his forces to Isengard, since he had other things to deal with (Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, Erebor...etc) but it was definitely clear Sauron had an overwhelming mass of forces at his disposal. Had the Ring not been destroyed, just the sheer numbers and force of Sauron's armies would have crushed those who opposed him.

Sauron had many armies at his disposal...and again taking into account that the Nine could not get the job done at getting the Ring when they had the chance. If Sauron believed that Saruman had the ring (somebody who had some power), I think it would be more important to him and getting that Ring than just sending one Nazgul.

There are two possibilities I think in only sending one Nazgul...

1) As Mithadan said, perhaps Sauron still felt like he had Saruman controlled and a faithful obedient servant. (However, as Grishnakh shows, Sauron had already begun to grow distrustful of Saruman...so I don't know if this would make sense).

2) He wanted the Hobbit to get as much information from him as possible, which wouldn't require all that much to get. Considering that if Isengard was still standing, Saruman would have soon come to realize this was the wrong hobbit, there wouldn't be much need of him, and probably would willlingly give him up to Sauron. (This is also though just a bunch of possibilities and speculation).

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information. What Denethor saw in the palantir wasn't lies by Sauron, they were actually taking place...But since Denethor did not have the mind, or will, to contend with Sauron, Sauron was able to control and show Denethor only what he wanted Denethor to see:
’He was too great to be subdued by the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which the power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind."~The Pyre of Denethor
In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.

1) Pippin wasn't a rightful owner of the palantir, yet Denethor was of his:
These stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right; but this does not mean that they could only be used rightfully by one of these 'heirs'. They could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the 'heir of Anarion' or the 'heir of Isildur', that is, a lawful King of Gondor or Arnor. [...] In Gondor latterly, as the office of Steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing as it were a permanent 'understudy' to the King, and an immediate viceroy at need, the command and use of the Stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the Stewards, and the traditions concerning their nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their House. Since the Stewardship had become hereditary from 1998 onwards, so the authority to use, or again to depute the use, of the Stones, was lawfully transmitted in their line, and belonged therefore fully to Denethor. ~Unfinished Tales; The Palantiri
Denethor was also a rightful viewer of the Stone (though he was much closer in proximity to Sauron than was Aragorn or Pippin)...however as we see he was unable to wrestle any sort of control over what Sauron showed him.

2) Denethor, Saruman, and Aragorn were much stronger as far as willpower than Pippin was:
"...nor had he [Sauron] any servant whose mental powers were superior to Saruman's or even Denethor's."~ibid

Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked. It certainly appears that Sauron won the exchange, as Pippin is in a complete state of shock and fear after he looked into it.

[the phantom]

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information.
I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.
In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.
Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked.
I don't agree.

For the first bit Sauron speaks to Pippin thinking he is Saruman, which makes it quite clear that the palantir isn't exactly the same as a video conference. So no, I wouldn't expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted. His perception is clearly limited, and he clearly did not see exactly who Pippin was and how he looked.

Pippin had to tell Sauron he was a hobbit. And that's not to mention the fact that Sauron did not even know where Pippin was. He thought he was in Isengard. If you can't even tell where the person is you are talking to, then the method of communication you are using is certainly less than perfect.

[Boromir88]

For the first bit Sauron speaks to Pippin thinking he is Saruman, which makes it quite clear that the palantir isn't exactly the same as a video conference.
Like Fordim says though, why would Sauron assume that somebody else was using the palantir, other than Saruman? Sauron then realizes that it's not Saruman asks 'who's there'. I think also this was the first time Sauron came into contact with a Hobbit, or seen a hobbit. He just learned about them recently, and never saw one before, so he wouldn't know who Pippin was. Once Pippin responds that he's a Hobbit, Sauron then sees him and laughs:
'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me.'

Pippin had to tell Sauron he was a hobbit.
How would Sauron know what a hobbit looks like if he's never seen a Hobbit before?

He thought he was in Isengard. If you can't even tell where the person is you are talking to, then the method of communication you are using is certainly less than perfect.
What we are told from the UT, this is where the problem occurs. Because objects were 'blinded' or blotted out unless there was some sort of light reflecting off them. This was in the dark, at night, there was the 'moonlight gleaming off its surface', but that's all. So, without the light on objects, you couldn't see any surroundings (but that doesn't mean you couldn't see another viewer) Now a person of significant willpower could do a 'shrouding' effect and cover up objects, or they could cause the palantir to concentrate one some point, but this took quite a bit of willpower and was extremely tiring. Pippin definitely wouldn't be able to do this.

Perhaps it was premature of me to say that Sauron saw exactly everything he wanted, because he obviously couldn't tell the stone wasn't in Orthanc anymore. But, I don't see how we can get a sense that Sauron didn't see Pippin. Pippin saw Sauron and was able to recognize him, it's just that Sauron saw Pippin and was unable to recognize him (hence the 'Who is it?'). Probably because:

1) He's got a recent and limitted knowledge on Hobbits, most likely never saw one before, so literally wouldn't know who it is.

2) Also wondering why it wasn't Saruman who was viewing it, and wanted to know who was.

Anyway, asking 'Who is it' doesn't mean Sauron wasn't able to see Pippin, he just didn't know who was using it.

[the phantom]

How would Sauron know what a hobbit looks like if he's never seen a Hobbit before?
I would completely agree with that.

So in response to Fordim earlier theorizing on Sauron's thought process-
Hey, a hobbit? Is it the Ringbearing one or not? Hmmmmmm....a bit taller than the one Witchie told me about....not quite so red in the cheeks....younger than Baggins.....no sign of the Ring on his finger or around his neck.....no sense of Ringiness here......nope, it's not Frodo Baggins.
There is no way Sauron could've possibly seen Pippin in that much detail considering that he didn't know he wasn't Saruman at first. In addition, there's no way he had that much info on the hobbits already since Pip had to tell him "I'm a hobbit".

Sauron hadn't seen mug shots of the hobbits. If Sauron was given pics of the four hobbits he wouldn't have any idea which one was which.

And if anyone remembers, the original reason I'm arguing this point in the first place is simply to disprove the notion that Sauron could in any way rule Pip out as the Ring-bearer. I think Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring bearer! Why else get excited and send a Nazgul? Would Saruman go to the Shire and kidnap Lobelia and show her to Sauron? Nope. What's the point? There's only one reason for Saruman to show off a hobbit to Sauron- to say "I've got the Ring!"
I don't see how we can get a sense that Sauron didn't see Pippin.
Well, if we consider what you said about the whole "must be lighted" property of the palantir, Pippin was in a dark place, so perhaps it's possible that Sauron couldn't see him too well. If Sauron could really see him as plain as day then he would've screeched to a halt after his first word and said "Who is this?" but instead he finished two whole sentences, and asked only after Pip didn't answer. Sauron couldn't have fully seen Pippin. That wouldn't make sense.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'd like to look back at the passage in question:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"~The Palantir There is no doubt in my mind that the references to "dainty" and "it" are intended to refer to the Ring. That is the natural reading of the passage and it is how I have always understood it.

Had Tolkien intended Sauron to be referring to Pippin rather than the Ring, he would I am sure have phrased it something like this:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that you are not for him, my dainty. I will send for you at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"The words "Do you understand" indicates that Sauron intended there to be no confusion. Believing Pippin to be the Ringbearer, he wanted it to be clear to Saruman that the Ring was not for him (Saruman) and was to be surrendered to him (Sauron) forthwith. He therefore asked Pippin to convey this to Saruman in a manner such that Saruman would understand exactly what he meant. Sauron was assuming that the hobbit was the Ringbearer and that Saruman knew this. In these circumstances, Pippin's repetition of the words used ("Say just that!") would convey to Saruman exactly what Sauron wanted.

Imagine that Pippin is the Ringbearer and Saruman knew this (Sauron's assumption), what would be Saruman's natural conclusion from the following words?

"This dainty is not for you. He will send for it at once."

That Sauron wanted the Ring and was sending for it.

Now imagine that both Sauron and Saruman knew that Pippin was not the Ringbearer. What would be Saruman's natural conclusion from the same words? There is no natural conclusion. It could mean a number of things. It is ambiguous. Sauron would not have wanted any ambiguity. So, in these circusmtances, he would have told Pippin to tell Saruman that he, Pippin, was not for Saruman. The fact that he did not suggests strongly (absolutely, in my view) that Sauron had made the assumption referred to above and that he was talking about the Ring.

As for Sauron's knowledge of the identity of the hobbit to whom he was speaking, I would agree wholeheartedly with the phantom that there was no way that Sauron would be able to tell one Hobbit from the other in the circumstances prevailing. The only argument that I have seen which might support the opposite view is Fordim's suggestion that he would be able to "feel" the Ringbearer. However, given the various points that have been made about the the Palantir (that Sauron was using it without rights of ownership and that its "transmission" was in any event less than perfect), it seems to me entirely credible that he would not have been able to feel the presence of the Ring through it, particularly given the natural meaning of the words used. Had the Palantir allowed the user to "feel" the presence of power, then Sauron would presumably have been able to detect that Saruman was not present. He did not. He assumend that Pippin was with Saruman.

So, why was Sauron so comfortable about the Ring having fallen into the hands of one such as Saruman?

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs!Perhaps it was a nervous laugh. ;)

It is true to say that Sauron feared that someone, particularly someone of great power, would seek to use the Ring against him. My guess, however, is that he knew that it would take anyone (even one such as Saruman) time to master the Ring (assuming even that he could, which is open to speculation). He was no doubt hopeful that Saruman would voluntarily return the Ring to him, in return for great favour in his "new order" (whether he intended to bestow it or not). Of course, he was also aware that Saruman was capable of treachery. In such circumstances, however, he was, I am sure, confident that he would be able to overcome Saruman before Saruman would be able to master the Ring. Perhaps he was over-confident, but we know that Sauron was not exactly lacking in self-confidence (ultimately, to his detriment).

He laughed because finally (in his mind) the Ring had turned up in circumstances where he was confident of securing its return.

I also agree with the phantom that one Nazgul was despatched because that Nazgul happened to be in the vicinity and would be able to get to Isengard quickly to establish whether Saruman was prepared to give up the Ring voluntarily and, if so, take custody of it. If he was not, then I am sure that Sauron would not have hesitated to unleash such power as was available (all of the Nazgul, at the very least). We know from Unfinished Tales that Saurman was fearful of the Nazgul when they came to Insengard in full force. Sauron would, I am sure, have been confident that he could obtain the Ring from Saruman one way or another.

[Boromir88]

Sauce, excellent post...that's all I can say. ;)

Phantom:
There is no way Sauron could've possibly seen Pippin in that much detail considering that he didn't know he wasn't Saruman at first. In addition, there's no way he had that much info on the hobbits already since Pip had to tell him "I'm a hobbit".
If Sauron could really see him as plain as day then he would've screeched to a halt after his first word and said "Who is this?" but instead he finished two whole sentences, and asked only after Pip didn't answer. Sauron couldn't have fully seen Pippin. That wouldn't make sense.
Both make sense, the biggest thorn in my side was if he believed Saruman had the Ring, why would he only send one nazgul (I'll get to that more in a moment). The argument that Sauron was referring to Pippin as 'dainty' and 'it' is truly hard to try and convince people, and as Sauce shows it really doesn't make a lot of sense. If Sauron already had referred to Pippin as 'We' (you and I) than it just doesn't fit with the rest of Sauron's message.

My biggest problem was wondering why Sauron would just send one Nazgul if he was sending for the Ring. However, if we take some things into consideration I can see why Sauron would believe 1 Nazgul would suffice.

Eventhough he didn't know it...Saruman is trapped and was booted from the Order. What Gandalf says about him possibly holding off, or trapping a Nazgul is purely Gandalf's speculation. Saruman, though still could be potentially dangerous, has lost most of his power.

As phantom says, he wanted to act as quickly and with as few resources as possible to send for the Ring. He was already dealing with, and organizing for war on several fronts. Also, Sauron could have figured Saruman wouldn't have been able to do much with the Ring...considering this quote before from the Foreward:
Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.
Eventhough this is a 'what would happen if...' scenario Tolkien conjured up...I took this as meaning Saruman still had some kinks he had to work out in his Ring-lore studies. So there would be little fear of Saruman being able to use the Ring.

And finally as Mithadan argued, Sauron still probably assumed Saruman was 'loyal' to him and do as he said.

[Mister Underhill]

Time, tide, and BD discussion threads wait for no man. I haven't been able to read or compose in detail as I'd like, but I thought I'd throw out at least a few thoughts.

It seems to me at least that Gandalf presumes that Sauron was thinking of Pippin when he spoke of "this dainty": If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."He wanted you."

The dark mind which had been seeking his lost Ring literally for centuries would now be filled with the "voice and face of the hobbit", rather than the Ring, if he thought that was what he was sending for?

And lastly, mention is made of "the captive", but not the Ring.

Make of those what you will. To my mind, Gandalf did not jump to the conclusion that Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring.

Even a cursory glance at "The Hunt for the Ring" from UT (with the usual caveat that the text is unfinished, and indeed exists in several varying forms -- but what the heck, we're using UT as authoritative on how the Palantíri function) shows that Sauron by no means considered Saruman loyal at this late date, no matter which version you examine.

I have some ideas on what this implies for who knew what when, and what some of the dynamics might have been, but they will have to wait for a later date, I'm afraid.

One interesting thing of note is that my impression on a quick skim is that Uruks and Northerners from Moria attacked the Fellowship at Amon Hen; Grishnákh may or may not have been with them at that time, or may have caught up with them afterward; either way, I think he's the sole Mordor rep at first. After he stirs up the pot and it goes against the Northerners, I think Grishnákh slinks off, and only returns later with a band of Mordor orcs -- just in time to get rounded up and slaughtered by the Rohirrim. In other words, the group that attacked the Fellowship may not have been a Mordor/Isengard coalition force.

Last quick point. Going back to "The Hunt for the Ring": "Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort."You don't think twice about calling a creature from a species of furry-footed little creatures an "it", especially if you're the most egotistical being walking Middle-earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

From the excerpt quoted by Mister Underhill above:

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error. (emphasis added)What is this error that Gandalf considers Sauron may take some time discovering? Surely it is his mistake in assuming that Pippin was the Ringebearer.

It is not at all inconsistent with Sauron assuming that Pippin was the Ringbearer that he would want to question the captive Pippin. Even with the Ring regained, he was still at war with the Free Peoples. He would want as much information concerning his enemy as possible, particularly when the captive was a known associate of Gandalf and had visited Rivendell and (possibly, although this, I think, remains unclear) Lothlorien.

You don't think twice about calling a creature from a species of furry-footed little creatures an "it", especially if you're the most egotistical being walking Middle-earth.Agreed. Except when you are addressing said furry-footed little creature and directing it to convey a very important message concerning itself to another. In those circumstances, Sauron would not say to the creature: "tell him to send it to me", but rather: "tell him to send you to me".

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Sorry Sauce, but I think that Mister Underhill has carried the day here.

[The Saucepan Man]

Sorry Sauce, but I think that Mister Underhill has carried the day here.Now you know that there is no more effective way of drawing me back out than saying something like that ... ;)

If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.It has been suggested that Sauron was quite aware that Pippin was not the Ringbearer but nevertheless wanted him brought to Barad-Dur because he wanted information from him.

But Gandalf says that Sauron did not want information only.

So why did Sauron want him, if not only for information? And why did he want him so quickly? Simply to indulge in a little bit of torture? Perhaps, but I don't see any reason for the excessive eagerness or the urgency if that was the case. Why the excitement over the prospect of torturing an unimportant creature of a race that he had barely heard of and attached no significance to other than in connection with the Ring?

No, Sauron wanted Pippin brought quickly to Barad-Dur because he believed Pippin to be the Ringbearer (thus enabling him to obtain the Ring) and because he wanted to "deal" with the Ringbearer, slowly. The fact that Pippin would no doubt have information that would be useful to him was another reason for dealing with him personally, but it was the prospect of torturing the Ringbearer (and, of course, retrieving the Ring) that prompted the urgency and eagerness.

I can understand Sauron getting excited at the prospect of "dealing" with a creature who was (illegitimately, to his mind) in possession of the most precious thing in the world to him rather more than I can understand him getting excited at the prospect of "dealing" with a mere Hobbit with some useful information.

[Mister Underhill]

It's quite clear that Sauron wanted Pippin brought quickly because he had a craving for a nice, tasty dainty. These are difficult to be had in Mordor, as everyone knows, and when he clapped eyes on Pippin, he just couldn't wait. He hung up quickly so he could go order the manufacture of some whipped cream (in Mordor it really is "whipped"). That's one theory, anyway. ;)

Take a look at things from Sauron's point of view.

You know that Saruman is not a loyal ally.

You know, in fact, that Saruman is in a race with you to find the Ring.

Saruman has not been answering his phone. In fact you've sent a Nazgûl across the River sooner than you wanted to in order to find out why.

You likely know that an attack on the Fellowship was made, not by your forces, and perhaps you know that the attackers were attempting to return to Isengard.

Now, your phone rings. It's Saruman. At this point, the only reason you can think of for him to be calling is that he has decided to make peace with you, so you answer the phone, "So, you have come back?"

But now you see that it's not Saruman after all. It's one of those furry-footed little creatures who have had the temerity to steal your Ring (Precious!!).

Saruman must be showing it to you. Why?

Perhaps he has discovered the Ring and is showing you this creature to demonstrate that (a) he has it and (b) he wants to give it back to you. Nix. If Saruman had found the Ring, he would have taken it.

Perhaps he has discovered the Ring and is showing you this creature to taunt you, to rub your face in it that he has found the Ring, and has no intention of giving it to you. Not likely. Saruman is not a complete fool. Even if he never said the words from UT, the logic behind them is pretty persuasive:"...if I knew where [the Ring] was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it."Perhaps, by attacking the Fellowship, he made his last ditch play to get the Ring for himself. Now, having failed, he sees the writing on the wall. The Ring is beyond his grasp. War is imminent, and you will win. Thus, he is showing you this prisoner as a peace offering. You could question the prisoner here and now, but it may say something aloud that you don't want Saruman to hear. And anyway, torture over the phone just doesn't compare with torture in person. Just in case Saruman has any ideas about questioning the prisoner himself, as he planned to do with Gandalf, you issue him a warning. Then you hang up so you can get NPS (Nazgûl Parcel Service) dispatched.

You don't ask to speak directly to Saruman just to make him sweat a bit about whether or not you will accept his peace offering.

That's my take.

[The Saucepan Man]

Effectively, we have a difference of opinion over Sauron’s thought process here. The alternatives may be summarised as follows:

1. Saruman has been looking for the Ring.
2. Saruman has captured a Hobbit.
3. A Hobbit was bearing the Ring.
4. Ergo Saruman has both Hobbit and Ring.
5. I am delighted at this turn of events.
6. Both Hobbit and Ring must be handed over to me immediately.
7. Have Nazgul in vicinity, will send it straight away.
or

1. Saruman was looking for the Ring.
2. Saruman has captured a Hobbit.
3. A Hobbit was bearing the Ring.
4. This Hobbit doesn’t have the Ring.
5. I am delighted at this turn of events.
6. Hobbit must be handed over to me immediately.
7. Have Nazgul in vicinity, will send it straight away.

Both involve an assumption on Sauron’s part – the italicised words at point 4. in both formulations. Neither assumption necessarily follows as a matter of logic from the first three points. However, it seems to me that, in all the circumstances, the assumption in the first formulation is the one that Sauron was the more likely to make. It is also more consistent with the points that follow.

Add to this the words that Sauron spoke to Pippin and the more natural conclusion to draw from his use of the word “it” (repeated by Pippin to Gandalf), and I have no doubt that Sauron thought that Saruman had captured the Ringbearer.

Did Sauron stop to consider the likelihood of Saruman “calling him up” in these circumstances? Possibly. Possibly not. If he did, my guess is that he thought that Saruman was prepared to hand the Ring over to him in return for favour, rather than risk having Sauron’s full force unleashed upon him. Sauron was an over-confident fellow who regarded himself and his capabilities highly and assumed that others would do so too. Alternatively, he may have thought that the captive Hobbit had been left alone by Saruman with the Palantir and had made a desperate attempt to call for help.

Although we are here in the realm of pure speculation, there are to my mind perfectly credible explanations for Sauron not thinking it overly strange that he should receive this call.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You are right there Sauce about the reliance on assumption that you and Misty Undy are engaging in -- which is why I forsake such things and cite once more the passage provided by MU above:

"If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."

To Gandalf's mind the situation is pretty clear: Sauron wants and is referring to Pippin as the thing to be sent to Mordor; and there is no mention anywhere here of the Ring. Gandalf says that Sauron wants "information", "you", "you" and that he is consumed with "the voice and face of the hobbit" and that he'll be angry that Saruman has withheld "the captive".

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try... ;)

[Boromir88]

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...
That's not too hard...I mean after all it's not that difficult to prove an old crazy man has no idea what he's talking about.

Afterall, here was the guy that called Treebeard the oldest creature that was on the earth and the man who wanted Gimli (who had never been in Moria before) to help him navigate through the Mines. :p

[Raynor]

here was the guy that called Treebeard the oldest creature that was on the earth I don't think that's a settled issue.
the man who wanted Gimli (who had never been in Moria before) to help him navigate through the Mines.I wouldn't say that's over the top. As Gimli states in The ring goes south, the images of Moria were set in many images of metal and stone, and in many songs and tales.

[Boromir88]

My last post was in no way intended to be taken seriously...hence the use of the smiley. ;)

[The Saucepan Man]

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...I wouldn't dream of it. Although Gandalf is not infallible ...

Nevertheless, Gandalf's words are not incompatible at all with my understanding. I refer the learned professor to my post #32. Sauron did not want information only. He wanted the Hobbit. Urgently, and with great anticipation. Why? Because he thought that the Hobbit had the Ring.

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit (such that his dark mind would become filled with his voice and face), why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation

To extract certain information (see above) and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

To extract certain information (see above) ...But, as Gandalf states, he did not only want information. Regardless of the Hobbit's information value, he wanted the Hobbit. He was obsessed with the Hobbit. Why?

... and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.I don't doubt that he does. But he was particularly excited about the prospect of entertaining this particular Hobbit at Barad-Dur. Why?

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.Well, it's not going to take him long to clear up that particular misunderstanding. A Nazgul was en route to Isengard even as Gandalf was speaking. Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

[Raynor]

Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

[Mister Underhill]

The Nazgûl en route (the one that passed over Dol Baran) was not sent as a result of Pippin looking into the stone, as G tells Pippin himself, and G is fairly explicit about the "error": 'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean, it didn't know that I had… '

'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel.As a sidebar, more evidence that calling a hobbit an "it" is not at all unusual or unprecedented may be found in the dialogue of Shagrat and Gorbag regarding Frodo: 'Lugbúrz wants it, eh? What is it, d'you think? Elvish it looked to me, but undersized. What's the danger in a thing like that?'EDIT: Cross-posted with Raynor.

[the phantom]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.
Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

EDIT: Btw, I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best. Gandalf did not know everything. He has been very wrong before, and has a habit of stating things as fact that were not truly known.

[Boromir88]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.~Raynor
But why would the error be about the palantir when there is no mention of the crystal ball throughout the quote Mr. Underhill supplied?
That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.
The error has to do with Pippin, nothing at all with the palantir. Gandalf thinks Sauron has made an error with Pippin. Sauron's mind is filled with Pippin's voice and image, and this is where Sauron has erred (according to Gandalf). This whole matter is about Pippin, not Sauron thinking Saruman still had the palantir, he cares about getting Pippin. So what is this error that Gandalf thinks Sauron has made and it will take him a while to recognize it?

Well, I think we can say it's safe to assume that Sauron wouldn't want Pippin to simply for the pleasure of torturing a little hobbit and mounting him in his room (ehem: Fordim). Sauron may have taken pleasure in making people work for him, but he's got thousands of Orcs to do this, and I doubt he's going to send one of his Nazgul to Isengard to go fetch him a toy to play with. Isn't there bunnies or leprecauns around or something? :p

Also, according to Gandalf, Pippin wasn't only wanted for information (so there would have to be at least two reasons Sauron hoped to acquire when receiving Pippin). So going to get Pippin either Sauron wanted:

1. Information and a fun hobbit to play with
2. Information and the Ring
(Or I guess you could say)
3. Information, the Ring, and a hobbit to play with. :p

Now why would Gandalf feel that Sauron made an error in choosing Pippin to be tortured? It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Sauron is now filled with the mind and voice of the Hobbit, and Gandalf says this is where Sauron has made his error. I really don't see Gandalf saying Sauron made an error in his choice of who he wanted to torture...maybe Gandalf thought Pippin wouldn't be all that fun to torture, and plus Pippin's was his to torture? :D Therefor, I see it has to be an item that Sauron believed Pippin had (or Saruman had already taken from him), and hoped to get when he got Pippin.

One might think why doesn't Sauron just say...The Ring is not for you, Saruman! Why doesn't he just say that...instead of being all coded and saying 'it' all the time? I think that's just it, Sauron wants to disguise his intentions, eventhough if they really are quite obvious...or at least obvious enough that it appears Gandalf picked up on what Sauron wanted from Pippin. Not just information, but something else. What else could Sauron want from a Hobbit beside the Ring or a slave/torture person? However, it really doesn't make a lot of sense that Sauron wanted Pippin so bad, because there was a lack of a labor force, or a lack of people to torture, in Mordor that he needed to get this Hobbit right away, and he needed a Nazgul to go get this Hobbit as soon as possible.

[Mister Underhill]

You might have read over the quote a little too quickly, Boro -- "...withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone."

[Raynor]

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.I don't think that it would take longer for Sauron understand that the ring wasn't in Isengard than understanding that Pippin & the palantir weren't there. After all, as the quote says, "Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone". That is a firm belief. All that he knows at that time leads him to this conclusion. However, that the ring is with that hobbit is only a presuposition - he hasn't seen the ring, but he has seen the hobbit in Saruman's palantir.

[Boromir88]

Mister Underhill, so I did speak a little hastily. But I don't think the error with Pippin has anything to do with the Palantir. With this whole mess Sauron has assumed several things wrong:

Pippin's a captive in Orthanc
Saruman had the Stone in Orthanc
Pippin is someone that would be important to Sauron. And not just for information.

I think the gloss you put on your last quote is a little out of context, let's look at the bigger picture:
'I was just wondering about the black shadow. I heard you shout "messenger of Mordor". What was it? What could it do at Isengard?'
'It was a Black Rider on wigs, a Nazgul,' said Gandalf. 'It could have taken you away to the Dark Tower.'
'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean it didn't know that I had...'
'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel. '
I get the impression there are two Nazgul heading to Isengard. The first one was sent before Pippin looked into the palantir, because Sauron wanted to find out what Saruman has been doing all this time and why he hadn't been using the stone. But after the events of tonight [Pippin looking into the stone] Gandalf thinks another will be sent to Isengard, and be sent swiftly. This would be the Black Rider Pippin would have to be fear, because this would be the one after the captive (him). The other one Gandalf guesses was sent to Isengard to figure out what Saruman was up to all this time, not the one sent after Pippin used the Palantir.

I think as phantom says there are many errors Sauron had made here. One was assuming Saruman still had the palantir, and I think as he says this can be easily rectified, especially with the quote above. However, there were other errors Sauron made and it would take him longer to figure it out...this might be assuming Pippin was the Hobbit with the Ring.

As I did speak hastily there was an error that Sauron thought Saruman had the palantir, however there was another error Sauron made and it dealt with Pippin, this is stated with the sentence talking about Sauron's mind being filled with Pippin's image and voice. Why would Sauron be so concerned about what Pippin looks like and how he talks if he wanted Pippin for sport? No, he's concerned about how Pippin looks and how he speaks because he has something Sauron wants...the most important thing Sauron wants (and not just information).

While it is true that hobbit can be dehumanized, as you have shown Mr. Underhill, I don't think that happens in this case, because structurally it doesn't make sense. Sauron says 'We shall meet again.' We is kind of like an in-group in sociology, there is a sense of equalization. Although Sauron and Pippin may not be equal in many areas, they are both people, and even Sauron recognizes this with 'We' (meaning You and I). So, now that Sauron has already set them up as equals on a certain level, why would he suddenly change to 'it?' There is a subject change between this encounter. It goes from 'We' to 'it' a person to a thing. It is just a confusing structure to make the argument that Sauron was making Pippin feel like he wasn't a person, because he had done that very thing.

In the examples you give, the word 'it' is used consistantly to refer to people, as in making them appear like they are less than human.

(At the rist of repeating myself through out this post, everything above is Gandalf's speculation).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Phantom you said:

I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best.

Boro you said:

everything above is Gandalf's speculation

Ok, sure. But then isn't this...

there was an error that Sauron thought Saruman had the palantir, however there was another error Sauron made and it dealt with Pippin, this is stated with the sentence talking about Sauron's mind being filled with Pippin's image and voice. Why would Sauron be so concerned about what Pippin looks like and how he talks if he wanted Pippin for sport? No, he's concerned about how Pippin looks and how he speaks because he has something Sauron wants...the most important thing Sauron wants (and not just information).

...and this...

I think Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring bearer! Why else get excited and send a Nazgul? Would Saruman go to the Shire and kidnap Lobelia and show her to Sauron? Nope. What's the point? There's only one reason for Saruman to show off a hobbit to Sauron- to say "I've got the Ring!"

...not to mention this...

Did Sauron stop to consider the likelihood of Saruman “calling him up” in these circumstances? Possibly. Possibly not. If he did, my guess is that he thought that Saruman was prepared to hand the Ring over to him in return for favour, rather than risk having Sauron’s full force unleashed upon him. Sauron was an over-confident fellow who regarded himself and his capabilities highly and assumed that others would do so too. Alternatively, he may have thought that the captive Hobbit had been left alone by Saruman with the Palantir and had made a desperate attempt to call for help.

...also speculation?

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?

[The Saucepan Man]

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?I am quite happy to accept that Gandalf has got it right. And Sauron thinking that Saruman had captured the Ringbearer is wholly consistent with what Gandalf says, namely that:

1. Sauron wants the Hobbit for something more than information.
2. Sauron wants the Hobbit urgently.
3. Sauron's mind is filled with the voice and the face of the Hobbit.
4. Sauron has made an error that will take some time to rectify.

Add to that the natural interpretation of Sauron's use of the word "it", particularly (as Boromir88 notes) after having addressed Pippin personally using the word "we".

So, speculation it may be. But it is speculation based firmly upon what we are told.

In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

The suggestion that he anticipated Pippin's arrival at Barad-Dur so eagerly simply because he wanted another torture victim is hardly credible.

[Raynor]

He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons.Don't you guys think there's something missing here? That's right, the ring. Gandalf doesn't think that Saruman will be held accountable for the not having the ring - just for the hobbit and palantir ;).

[The Saucepan Man]

He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Captive = Ringbearer.

I can sense a poll coming on ... :rolleyes: ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Captive = Ringbearer.

I can sense a poll coming on ... :rolleyes: ;)

Take lots of vitamin C and stay in bed until it passes.

[Raynor]

I think that Gandalf would make a great error of judgement to believe that the ringbearer would hold a higher status than the ring in Sauron's mind, so as to not even mention the ring, but mention the ringbearer. If Gandalf genuinely believed Sauron expected to find the ring in Isengard, he would definitely have said something like "He has no ring to give, he has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons". To underline, if even necessary, the importance of the ring to Sauron, compared to anything else, I will give these two quotes:
So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again.With all this emphasis on the ring, why wouldn't Sauron send all his nazgul, why only one, when all his victory would be at hand?

[The Saucepan Man]

I repeat ...

In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

[Raynor]

In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.

[Boromir88]

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?

By saying it's Gandalf's speculation, I'm actually implying both. Bottom line is we don't know what Sauron thought, we only know what Gandalf thought he thought. So, it would be incorrect for anyone to assert what Sauron truly thought (through Gandalf's thought), because we don't know what he actually thought except for what he tells Pippin through the Palantir. Which, what he tells Pippin through the Palantir seems to be:

1. He and Pippin will meet again.
2. He believes Saruman has something that isn't his to have.

Edit: Cross-posted with Raynor:

True, but according to Gandalf Sauron didn't just want Pippin for information, he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have. And I think we can say Gandalf's speculation in this case is accurate because we know what Sauron said to Pippin through the Palantir and he believed Saruman had something that wasn't his, and that Sauron will send for it.

[Raynor]

I don't think that Sauron believed Pippin to be the ringbearer. For one thing, the witch-king must have told him about his meeting with Frodo. As we know from Reader's Companion quote from Marquette, page 180, which has been presented several times on this site, the witch-king believed Frodo to be very powerful, able to defeat a barrow-wight and to even withstand the witch-king himself, almost giving him a mortal wound. Pippin is a _far_ cry from this.

[Boromir88]

I'm sure the Witch-King did give Sauron an account of Frodo and the whole adventure leading up to his horse being washed away in the flood. But, as was discussed earlier in this thread...did Sauron get a good image of what Frodo looked like through the WK's description (if indeed there even was a description given)? Would Sauron be able to tell if Pippin was Frodo or not? The phantom showed quite reasonably that the palantir did not paint a 'clear picture'...again Sauron didn't even know the palantir was out of Isengard anymore...how clear could the picture have been? How clear of a picture did the Witch-King get of Frodo? Afterall the encounter took place at night. Why would Sauron want to not only remember Pippin's face, but Pippin's voice? The question still remains what else is it that Sauron wanted from Saruman? Or what he wanted from Pippin? What else did Saruman's captive have that Sauron would want immediately?

[Raynor]

I was referring to Frodo's inner strength, not to his phisical characteristics. He was able do resist the witch-king quite well. Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur; Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir, and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn. All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

[Boromir88]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?
All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.
We actually don't see the effects looking into the palantir and the mind to mind transfer Pippin had with Sauron until after the fact. Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message, although he is filled with fear, he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say and he does answer Sauron's question of who he is. He doesn't show the effects until after the use of the Palantir.
Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir
Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur
I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring). So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one. If we are to even take Gandalf's words as truth, did Frodo have such a will that he could resist any sort of urges? I doubt it, as again he did put on the Ring on several occasions, but more importantly did Sauron believe it?

and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn.
Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding. It doesn't say the Witch-King feared Frodo, because he was Frodo. The Witch-King feared Frodo because Frodo had a blade that could essentially destroy him:
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor -knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron , and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.
The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits, or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

[Raynor]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?From the report of the witch-king, I would expect that he did.
Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's messageSauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.
he is able to remember what Sauron told him to sayI think it would be fair to say that he was almost brainwashed by Sauron, seeing his reactions afterwards; he repeats his words like a puppet.
he does answer Sauron's question of who he is.After he was "hurt terribly".
Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.2. cuts both ways. You are correct about 1., but it seems that Gandalf believes that others too can master the palantir to a certain extant, as referred to above.
I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring).We should note that, even if Frodo did have his failings concerning the ring, Tolkien noted in letter #192:
Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across oneMy point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.
The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits,Again, when did I make such an argument? It is twice you are presuming this on my behalf.
Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding. I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.
or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.I don't think it is right to disregard other referrences in that quote:
But above all the timid and terrified Beared had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted swords made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the barrow wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.Simple ownership of the blade wasn't sufficient; a powerful weapon in and of itself, isn't necessarily a deterrent. Frodo proved other qualities that earned the fear of the witch-king.

[Boromir88]

I'll first start here:
I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.
That I do apologize for, it looks harsh and I should have used better wording. From the post before it looked like your argument was that Frodo was stronger (as far as will went) than Aragorn because the Witch-King feared him more than Aragorn. But, I don't think that's what UT was implying because the Witch-King wasn't afraid of Frodo's strength he mustered up. He did figure that Frodo had to be strong enough to get past the Barrow-wights and have the sword of the Westernesse. Also was taken back by Frodo striking at him and that he had called upon Elbereth...but he wasn't afraid of Frodo because he was comparable to Aragorn, or greater than Aragorn. He was afraid of Frodo because of what Frodo possessed (a blade that could kill him) and he used the name of Elbereth. (For which instead of looking in my book I went to a quick reference and missed the rest of it).

I think also it still shows Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King (and this can be supported from the encounter in LOTR)...but the Witch-King was just taken back by Frodo striking at him (and other factors). Frodo acted like a person stuck in a corner...he was still scared out of his boots (err...feet), but he was backed into a situation where he had to lash out...out of fear:
Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring....
At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy.~A Knife in the Dark

I'm not arguing that Pippin had a stronger will than Frodo's, as you show, what Frodo accomplished probably could not have been by anyone else during this time. But I don't see how Sauron would know based upon strength of will that it wasn't Frodo on the other side of the palantir, even had the Witch-King told him the full account. Because:

1. Frodo was still terrified of the Witch-King.
2. I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will. Whether it was a hobbit who was able to survive the Barrow-wight and resist the Witch-King or not, neither of them are Sauron. Sauron didn't seem to fear too many things other than someone possibly getting the Ring and challenging him.

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.
Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.
Why would Frodo be able to resist the pull to Barad-dur? He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir):
'The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that..'.~The White Rider
The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between the piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.~Breaking of the Fellowship
Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron. And even if he did, what would make Sauron believe that he could do such a thing?

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.
I think this still remains unadressed. Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

[Raynor]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will. Well, this would imply that Sauron thought the ring passed from one hobbit to another; I don't think that he has reasons to believe that. As far as he is concerned, the ringbearer survived from one attack to another and was still carrying the ring.
Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?I believe it was more than fear: Sauron actually controlled Pippin through the palantir. Would he expected Frodo to be as easily bent to his will? Imo, if he trusted witch-king's report - no.
He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir)I don't think that that this second part of your argument is related to the first one, since, in this case, Frodo didn't put on the ring out of weakness, but of necessity.
Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron.As a matter of personal opinion, it is easier for Sauron to control someone who has the ring, even if from afar, than to control someone through the palantir. It seems to me that our debate on Frodo and Pippin has moved this thread away from other members' interest, perhaps we could continue this on another thread.
Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information. We know that Sauron was already obssessed with the ring; I don't think it is unreasonable for him to extend that to matters related to recovering the ring.
Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.I expressed my opinion, in post #56, that:
In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.
IIRC, in the Reader's Companion, Sauron was displeased at the witch-king's bringing his enemies closer to the ring, so this was becoming an increasing concern for him. To address your reply to my post:
he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have.I don't think that we have already established that. If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.That depends upon what construction you put on Sauron's use of the word "it" when addressing Pippin. The logical construction or the illogical one. ;)

As for the other strand of this debate, I really don't think that there is any solid basis for assuming that Sauron was able in this encounter sufficiently to assess the Hobbit's physical and mental characteristics so as to distinguish him from another Hobbit. Sauron was indifferent to Hobbits, save on the subject of the Ring. His only interest in them arose from his knowledge that one of them bore his Ring.

If we are to believe Gandalf, we know that Sauron wanted this Hobbit for more than just information. Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.

Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer. He did not, because he made an erroneous assumption. An error that he would, Gandalf believed, take some time in discovering.

And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.

[Raynor]

The logical construction or the illogical one.I am glad you are finally admitting being wrong :D
Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.Ok. What do you think about my argument that he also didn't want others to access that information? His warning to Saruman seems to follow that line. And perhaps this has been argued before, but I don't think he would refer to the most powerful object on Middle Earth as a dainty.
Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer. Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?
And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.I don't think it has anything to do with Pippin; it was all down to Sauron's fancy. Pippin lost all control on what to say or not; if Sauron wanted him to reveal something, he would have said so, on the spot.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?I was rather of the impression that the conversation was not one that others present would necessarily be able to hear.

I don't think it has anything to do with Pippin; it was all down to Sauron's fancy.Under pressure from one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth, Pippin could have blurted out everything he knew to make the eye and the voice go away. He did not.

... if Sauron wanted him to reveal something, he would have said so, on the spot.Precisely. Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?

[Boromir88]

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?~Raynor
I've never heard that before, but it certainly makes sense to me. If Sauron's number 1 concern was getting the Ring back, I would guess his second concern was others falling on information about the Ring...especially someone like Saruman. So, are you arguing that 'dainty' and 'it' are not necessarily referring to Pippin himself, but information about the Ring that Pippin has and then could reveal to Saruman (or others)...which would cause just a little doubt and fear in Sauron? If so, that's an interesting spin on things and never heard it before (that's a good thing) and I can see it making sense.

As you say, Sauron would not want others to get any information about the Ring. If he believes Pippin has this information he will not only be useful for information, but Sauron would want him immediately so he didn't give any away to Saruman (or anyone else for that matter). I'll say if (because I still think he believed Pippin had the ring...which I will get to shortly), but if Sauron believed Pippin didn't have the Ring than it would still make sense.

Sauron began getting worried about Saruman and was wondering what he was sticking his hands in. If Sauron believed Pippin didn't have the Ring he would have to figure Saruman would figure this out (if he hadn't already). Then Saruman would begin to question Pippin the whereabouts of the Ring and this would fall under great concern from Sauron. So, I think that's a reasonable explanation, that Sauron didn't just want information from Pippin, he wanted to make sure that information didn't get into anyone's hands but his own. :)

Precisely. Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?~Sauce
Good point...from what Gandalf says:
"You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time. If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But, he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly."
This should support Raynor's valid point that it really wasn't a matter that Pippin resisted telling Sauron information...but it was a matter of time. Pippin had escaped just in time, but there is certainly no doubt in Gandalf (nor me) had Pippin been questioned about the Ring he would have spilled the beans.

Though I think that Gandalf believed Sauron thought Pippin had the Ring and he was going to use this to their advantage. As he puts it:
'Not yet,' said Gandalf. 'There remains a short while of doubt, which we must use. The Enemy, it is clear, thought that the Stone was in Orthanc - why should he not? And that therefore the hobbit was captive there, driven to look in the glass for his torment by Saruman.'
I think that sentence bolded above is interesting. At least Gandalf believes Sauron is facing some doubt right now (and I would agree with Gandalf here). Sauron was in doubt, about what? The ring? I think so, we know for sure that Sauron believed (though it wasn't true) that the stone was in Orthanc and Pippin was captive there...he did not doubt that he was just wrong. So, what is it that Gandalf believed Sauron did doubt? It would either be, does this hobbit have my ring? or as Raynor argues thinking that others will come across important information on where it is, (which would also fill him with doubt) Pippin got away at the 'fortunate' time as Sauron's head must be spinning after this point. And I think he would even be filled with more doubt once Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir. This causes Sauron to attack at Gondor sooner than he had hoped for, before his full strength was mustered.

[Raynor]

I was rather of the impression that the conversation was not one that others present would necessarily be able to hear.You may be right that Saruman can't listen to their mind to mind conversation over the palantir, however, we should note that in the text it is said: "his lips moved soundlessly for a while". I think it is reasonable to believe that poor Pippin was lip-synching to the messages he transmited to Sauron.
Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?This may be explained by the above issue.
Under pressure from one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth, Pippin could have blurted out everything he knew to make the eye and the voice go away. He did not.As I argued previously, what he did or did not say was stricly in relation to what Sauron asked. I opine that his free will was suspended in that conversation.

Edit:
Cross-posted with Boromir88:
You raise an interesting point: indeed, it would be foolish for Saruman to show the hobbit just to tease, if he didn't already have the ring. Then again, it may be that Gandalf left out the possibility of Saruman "trading" the hobbit, even though without the ring, only with information.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think it is reasonable to believe that poor Pippin was lip-synching to the messages he transmited to Sauron.So now Saruman is an expert lip-reader too ...? :p ;)

I am sure that even Sauron would have acknowledged that Saruman was quite capable himself of extracting such information as Pippin had. If he had thought that Pippin did not have the Ring, but information only, I am sure that he would not have hesitated to ask of the Ring's whereabouts, particularly as the more logical assumption would be that Saruman had already extracted this information.

Then again, it may be that Gandalf left out the possibility of Saruman "trading" the hobbit, even though without the ring, only with information.So Gandalf is fallible, then? ;)

If we are assuming that Gandalf's has got it right, then it is clear that Sauron was incredibly eager to get hold of Pippin, and not just for information. I really cannot see any reason for Sauron's eagereness, bordering on obsession, in this regard if he did not think that Pippin had the Ring.

If we are to believe that perhaps Gandalf got it wrong, then it all comes down to your interpretation of the words "it" and "dainty", as used by Sauron.

OK, I'm all argued out on this point, and merely repeating myself. All I really add is that, whenever I have read this passage, I have always interpreted the references to "it" and "dainty" to mean the Ring, and therefore that Sauron mistook Pippin for the Ringbearer. I am not about to change that long-held view without very clear evidence, which has not been forthcoming thus far.

[Boromir88]

The only thing I can reach is that Sauron was as confused as we are. :p Well, at least we got some ideas, but from what's given I don't know if anything can be 'proven,' beyond the importance of the bigger picture:

Because of Pippin's timely exit from the Palantir Sauron was left in doubt...who has the Ring? Where is the Ring? What are my enemies planning? Do they know something I don't? What are they planning on doing with the Ring? Or if he believed Pippin had the Ring...what is Saruman planning on doing? This only increases when Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir causing Sauron to act more quickly than he had wanted to...because Sauron's got some doubt, and Gandalf thinks it will take him a while to figure out what they are planning, so Gandalf will use that time to his advantage. :)

[Rhod the Red]

"As I argued previously, what he did or did not say was stricly in relation to what Sauron asked. I opine that his free will was suspended in that conversation."

Didn't Pippin refuse to give his name? You sure you read the book as well as the note you bring up all the time?

[Raynor]

Didn't Pippin refuse to give his name?I acknowledge an initial reluctance on behalf of Pippin, whether willed or not. However, that was quickly overcome seeing that Sauron could command him.

[Rhod the Red]

"However, that was quickly overcome seeing that Sauron could command him."

And you establish that also by fiat?

[Raynor]

Rhod the Red, if you find that Pippin crying out Sauron's words in "a shrill and toneless voice" is a testimony to his free will, you are free to do so. Gandalf states that almost certainly Pippin would have divulged all that he knew, to the ruin of them all, if Sauron would have questioned him.

[Rhod the Red]

Yes I know, that has two meanings. Like the effect of Sauron's will is immediate, or delayed. One can take their pick.

[Raynor]

Like the effect of Sauron's will is immediate, or delayed.The fact that Pippin follows Sauron's command even after the conversation stops it only another proof of Sauron's domination over the hobbit, not the other way around. I must say I find this nitpicking rather pointless. Unless something more substantial shows up, I see no further need to participate in this thread.