oldest person in middle earth

[Morgoth Bauglir]

or oldest elf i guess...at the time of the end of the third age.

wouldnt it be galadriel?

[mormegil]

I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.

[narfforc]

Mormegil is correct, Cirdan took part in the westward journey of the Elves, and was amongst those who searched longest for Elwe. Finarfin being the son of Finwe was born in the Blessed Realm along with his own daughter Galadriel, somewhat later.

[Bêthberry]

Right, best to keep it to elves, as factoring in Treebeard and Bombadil raises that other thorny question.

I don't think anyone has ever asked how old Goldberry is. Since she has some power to control the weather, one would think she is belongs to the earlier characters who shaped Arda, although obviously her mother would be older than her. No time travelling confusions here!

[mormegil]

How old is Glorfindel?

[Laleena]

Glorfindel, I read somewhere, was reincarnated. He died in the wars of Gondolin.
So he must be older than the wars of Gondolin. (don't ask me to do the math, I'm not good at it :p )

[Laleena]

Hang on let me go prod my best friend, she knows

[Legolasfan1]

okay im here (stop prodding it hurts :D ) I just signed up,which im sure you can see.

Hey, Leena, I don't know exactly how old Glorfindel is. I know just about as much as you. :)

[Macalaure]

I think all we know is that Glorfindel took part in the rebellion of the Noldor, and so must have been alive at least some time before the First Age.

And I have to say I always imagined Goldberry to be of the same age as Bombadil. Or maybe insignificantly younger, so that Tom can still be oldest.

[Legolasfan1]

And I have to say I always imagined Goldberry to be of the same age as Bombadil. Or maybe insignificantly younger, so that Tom can still be oldest.

i haven't read the Silmarillion or Lost Tales in a long time, so for now, I agree with you. (Do you count Ents?)

[Rumil]

If we're allowed Maiar, it must be Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and Sauron?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bêthberry brings up a highly interesting point with Goldberry's age - and that of her mother, the River-woman. A mother must be older than her daughter, though she would still be younger than Bombadil if it's true that he's oldest, in whatever sense that term may be used. But we can only speculate - not that this has ever stopped us from interesting discussions! ;)

[Legolasfan1]

I was thinking one of the ents would be oldest, but of course, I failed to see Oldest Person in Middle Earth :D

[Laleena]

tut tut tut child, Reading is how you learn

[Gil-Galad]

Glorfindel lived in the first age, died while fighting a Balrog during the refugees escape from the sacking of Gondolin, Glorfindel was then sent back to M-E after the Second Age where he lives in the house of Elrond.


out of the elves i would have to agree with saying that Cirdan would be the eldest named elf.

[Boromir88]

Of the Elves it would certainly be Cirdan whose people were the first mariners in Middle-earth and Cirdan would be the last elf to leave. It's speculated that Cirdan was one of the original Elves that awoke at Cuivienen, though that's not know for certain. :)

[Raynor]

I don't think that he was a first born elf. He is said to be a kinsman of Thingol (who , having a brother, means he is not a firstborn either), he is lower in rank than he, and apparently he has no wife (all 72 first elves had wives).

[lathspell]

A few notices.

The oldest elf is indeed Cirdan the Shipwright. He was among those few Elves that lived in Darkness before they were brought to Valinor by Oromë. I don't know wether he was a first-born elf, but he was definitely among them when their great journey began.

Oldest person is quite another thing. Huge threads have been given to this matter. Personally I'm inclined to think Bombadil is indeed oldest. I have a few reasons:
1. Goldberry says so in LotR: 'Eldest, that's what he is!' This assumes that he was older than her (I always thought of Bombadil's finding Goldberry near the river was a kind of metaphor for her birthing, so that would be another reason). Since she said it, and I think it safe to presume that she knows her mother's age, it would be safe to assume that he is older.
Than there is the point were speculation comes in. We don't know anything about Goldberry's mother. For all we know she disappeared or died. Calculations are not possible without further information on her part.

2. Tom Bombadil must be older than Treebeard, him being the Eldest Ent. In the Silmarillion Manwë says to Yavanna: 'When the thoughts of Iluvatar come alive, so also will the thoughts of Yavanna!' This after the Great Song and the Valar coming into Arda. Bombadil claims to have been her ever since the Great Dark Lord came from Outside when the world was ever dark. Bombadil saw the Valar come, therefore he was oldest.

Hoping this topic will never burn out,
greetings,
lathspell

[Boromir88]

lathspell, nice post I'd like to point out the differences between Treebeard being referred to as the Eldest, and Tom B. being referred to as such.

Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves {illegible} until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking.~Lord of the Rings Companion, Letter dated 1968

While I think Bombadil being called the 'Eldest' means slightly different (as in he truly is the oldest person on Middle-earth), as he is also referred to as 'fatherless.'

[yavanna II]

I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.

I can't quote, since I don't have a book (it's probably just under my bed or something), but Cirdan has a beard and has very long and white(?) hair. And for Elves to have beards they have to be thousands of years old, right? :D

[Boromir88]

Yep, Yavanna, Cirdan does have a beard:
'Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars...'~The Grey Havens
Those elves that entered into the third (which I believe is the last) life cycle had beards. This would mean that the eldest of the Eldar had beards. On Middle-earth (of the Elves we are told about), I honestly think it's pretty clear Cirdan was the oldest. As Cirdan was one of the first elves to arrive in Middle-earth and he would be the last one to leave:
Some he [Osse] persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord.~Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
'But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by my grey shores until the last ship sails.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years

[Mithalwen]

Just because a Mrs Cirdan isn't mentioned doesn't mean she definitely didn't exist though. Mrs Thranduil isn't mentioned but she must have existed. Since Tolkien says that marriage early in life was the norm for elves, there celarly wasn't the imbalance in the genders as occurred with dwarves - though if you look at the extant elvish geanealogies you would think that the gender imbalance was even greater among elves than the dwarves ..... alas for the unwritten history of women .... :rolleyes:

As for kinship - the Valar were unborn yet were still regarded as having siblings who were coeval in spirit. It is not impossible that a similar attitude was taken with the first elves...

[Bêthberry]

Just as Yavanna and Manwe had a special relationship separate from Yavanna's relationship with Aule, perhaps Mrs. Cirdan and Celeborn had one also, which would explain her absence from The Grey Havens at the fateful time of the famous departure. I don't think there's any question, though, that a Mrs. Cirdan sported a beard.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder if those blue wizards who went east weren't clothed in female robes. Another reason why their story is untold.

[Boromir88]

Oi, but Bethberry, the Blue Wizards story is told a bit more extensively and Tolkien seems to believe they had played a bit importance in limitting the numbers of Sauron's armies. I think we have more on the Blue Wizards than we do on Radagast. So if any wizard dressed in female clothes, it would be him. :rolleyes: :p

[Bêthberry]

Oh but Boromir, it isn't surprising that a man of Tolkien's tastes and values would be so circumspect and discrete about what likely were his Mata Hari characters. :p :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

Ah but you are forgetting the discarded draft involving the sixth wizard Khaminmirrandir who was more exotically garbed..... :p

[The Might]

I personally believe the oldest Elf is Ingwe, King of all Elves, that still dwells in Aman
It is not clear if he is still alive at the end of the Third Age, but neither is his death mentioned, and it is very possible that he is the eldest.
he is known to have awoken at Cuivienen
Ingwe has the most chances to be considered the eldest, as his name means "the first one".
on the other hand, this name could also have this meaning in reference to his exalted position as High King of all the Elves.

[Raynor]

In an early variant of the story, Ingwe is indeed given the title of the first elf:
On the march to the West the Lindar went first, and the chief house among them was the house of Ingwe, high-king of the Eldalie, and the oldest of all Elves, for he first awoke. ...although later the name of the first elf is given as Imin - in the legend of the awakening of the elves, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well the thing is, are we telling the oldest person in Middle-Earth (meaning: not Aman) or oldest person in Middle-Earth (actually meaning Eä, or the world of Tolkien as such)?

As for the first, I stand for Tom. Maybe even for the second (if you don't consider Maiar persons. And, of course, if you don't consider old TB being Maia :D Do Balrogs have wings?)

[The Might]

well I saw the opening post asking about Elves, and in this case it would be Ingwe
however, if we are talking about other races as well, I also agree that TB is the oldest

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

well I saw the opening post asking about Elves, and in this case it would be Ingwe

Oh yeah, then Círdan, because Ingwë was not in Middle-Earth (see above).

[Valier]

If we are not specifically talking about the oldest Elf, would not one of the Dwarves that Aule made be the oldest? He did make them before the coming of the Elves.

[The Might]

however, at the end of the Third Age this dwarf would be long gone...
theoretically one could debate if Durin VII and Last wasn't the oldest...however as mentioned in LOTR the name of Durin was given to a Dwarf if he resembled his famous ancestor a great deal and was believed to be a reincarnation of Durin. But even if this were so, considering he had already died 6 times before makes me not a valid candidate for the title...

[Boromir_bg]

I'd say that it's the spider...

[The Might]

This can't be, Shelob was not that old.

The earliest definite date we have for Shelob is 1000 SA because we know that she occupied Cirith Ungol 'before the first stone of Barad-dur which was laid at about that timeWe also know, from the same source, that she originally came there 'flying from ruin' - which probably hints that she had fled from the ruin of Beleriand after the War of Wrath, where she probably lived in Ered Gorgoroth before

Now since Ungoliant gave birth to Shelob and her many brothers and sisters after she had crossed the Helcaraxe with Melkor, it is pretty clear that Shelob would not be older then the Elves that awoke at Cuivienen or then some of the Ents, or ultimately then Tom Bombadil.

[Boromir_bg]

Okay,I must admit,that cancels my theory about her.Then who?Tom? lol

[Amras Oronar]

I'd agree with you on TB, but isn't he perhaps a Maiar? To be honest I havn't red much about TB but from what I have red about him he might very well be a Maiar...

The oldest elf walking arround was defintly Cirdan...

[Boromir88]

Amras to put it in the words of Goldberry...'He is.' Which means he simply just is. :p As Tolkien wrote in an unpublished Letter in 1968 (and appears in Hammond and Skulls Lord of the Ring's Companion:
'I do not know his origin though I might make guesses. He is best left as he is, a mystery. There are many mysteries in any closed/organized system of history/mythology.'
Ok, so Tolkien leaves Tom B. as an enigma to us all (as I doubt he really knew 'who Tom B. was', but I highly doubt that Tom Bombadil is any character/creature/person that comes from Tolkien's Middle-earth. Because:

Tolkien creates Tom completely from a whole different story seperated from Middle-earth...not the stories he created about the History of Middle-earth. Tom B was conceived long before Tolkien got to work on LOTR or The Silmarillion. He first appears in a story about King Bonhedig, and then later on in the 1930's, Tom Bombadil is in a poem Tolkien wrote where he's traveling down a river in England.

In a Letter to Christopher Fettes in 1961:
"So Bombadil is 'fatherless' , he has no historical origin in the world desribed in The Lord of the Rings."
So even though Tom B. is in a story about Middle-earth, he is not of Middle-earth. His origin, he who is does not come from the world Tolkien created in the Lord of the Ring's. Therefor, I doubt he is a Maiar. He is a character that Tolkien wrote small pieces about in stories 'outside' the history of Middle-earth and Tolkien decided to put him into a small part in Lord of the Rings. That doesn't mean Tom B. is of Middle-earth however, that just means he was put into Middle-earth.

Again, Goldberry says it best about Tom...'He is.' :rolleyes:

[Amras Oronar]

aye, if I knew that I wouldn't have thought of calling him as Maiar :rolleyes: Well thanks a lot for explaining he origen from Tom Bombadil for ever since I red lotr for the first time I have been wondering what he is and where he came from, thanks a lot for an awnser :)

[Bêthberry]

Mention of Goldberry once again brings up the question of her mother, although as Boro88 points out, the orginal sequence of Bombadil verse was not part of LotR. Still, we have no birth date for either Tom or Goldberry. Usually one assumes the woman is younger than the man, but this is not always the case. Yet the River Woman must be older than her daughter.

Speaking of spiders, Ungoliant clearly is ancient, older even than the maiar, it might appear, from her early descriptions in The Silm, yet she is outside Eru's creation, from the Void, and so I suppose does not qualify for this thread. Still, it is interesting to speculate what else might be out there in the Void or what the relationship is between The Void and Eä.

[The Might]

still, the fact that Tom simply found her one day near the river seems to suggest that she was younger...
he was Master of his domain, and would have probably her presence if she had been there before

also, the point made by Boromir88 is very good, another fact that shows the same thing is that Bombadil is unaffected by the Ring, and so many of the laws of Middle-earth are not valid in his case

[Boromir88]

I'll leave the two 'Berries' to themselves :p . I'm afraid whatever I say about her would probably simply be made up. :rolleyes:

TM, ahh an excellent point about the Ring. I was going to bring that up as I forgot in the last post...alas you got to it before I did. :smokin: Anywho, nice find. Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar, yet they still show the effects of the Ring. Gandalf may have been able to resist it, but he definitely feared possessing the Ring know what effect it would have on him. Where Tom B, simply just doesn't fit in with the rest of the 'Middle-earthians' when it comes to the Ring...as he shows no effect to it at all! Therefor I think are Bombadil isn't from Middle-earth he just happens to be residing there at the time being. Again, nice find.

[The Might]

Tom himself said:

"Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?" "Eldest, that's what I am... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside." If he said himself that his name is the only answer it clearly means that the passing of time, or of events in the outside world clearly don't affect him in his own little domain. However, he clearly is not immune to all that is of Middle-earth, as he clearly has feelings and needs.

I always thought...why does Tom Bombadil need to eat ?

But please, don't answer that, I don't want to completely turn this thread into another TB discussion. :p

[Amras Oronar]

Well there's not much of a discussion left here anyway eh? I mean "Tom remembers the first raindrops" that means he was there when middle earth was creatted, and that means before the elves....

[ArathorofBarahir]

Wasn't Tom Bombadil the oldest person? He said that he was there before everything. However, since Treebeard is an ent, doesn't that make him pretty frickin' old since he's been in Middle-Earth since it's creation.

[Amras Oronar]

If you would have taken the effort of reading the posts in front of you, you would have red it is lituarily said that Tom is the oldest

[Galadriel]

Arguably Bombadil.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It cannot be Tom Bombadil.

We only have his ramblings about being the eldest and remembering the first raindrops to support the theory, which is a shaky foundation at best. Also we don't even know what he is. . . if he is a deity does he still count as a person?

At least we know something about Cirdan.

[Morthoron]

It cannot be Tom Bombadil.

We only have his ramblings about being the eldest and remembering the first raindrops to support the theory, which is a shaky foundation at best. Also we don't even know what he is. . . if he is a deity does he still count as a person?

At least we know something about Cirdan.

I agree with you, Rune. It would be Cirdan, as defined by "person". We are not altogether sure what Bombadil "is".

[Galadriel55]

Since we don't know who/what "is" Bombadil, we can't really place him anywhere on the timeline. I remember reading somewhere in The Sil that the Ents appeared around the same time as Elves were born, which would make Treebeard one of the oldest (if you count him as a person). Cirdan is definitely the oldest Elf. If we count ainur to be "people", they are older than all the rest, except for Eru. :D

[Galadriel]

Since we don't know who/what "is" Bombadil, we can't really place him anywhere on the timeline. I remember reading somewhere in The Sil that the Ents appeared around the same time as Elves were born, which would make Treebeard one of the oldest (if you count him as a person). Cirdan is definitely the oldest Elf. If we count ainur to be "people", they are older than all the rest, except for Eru. :D

I thought I recall Bombadil implying that he was there before the Ents? If T.B. is a person, then aside from the Ainur and Eru, he'd be the oldest. But...are Ents really 'people'? :p

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Maybe we should get a clear definition about which creatures we are talking about. . .

Anyways no matter what Tom Bombadil should be left out, I don't believe we have anything that determines his age. Maybe he is just a madman who is immune to magical rings.