Most Tragic Moment?

[Aaron]

What in your mind is the most tragic part in the books?

[Sir Kohran]

Boromir's death. He had so much potential for good and yet he was cut short before his time.

[Aaron]

That always was quite an emotional moment but for my money it was the final meeting with Treebeard. He had no future, there was nothing to look forward to, his life had lost all meaning because the Entwives were lost. It's hard to imagine a bleaker situation.

[Raynor]

The departing of Aragorn; all in all, Arwen must have had the most tragic fate of all elves - she experienced the inherent sadness of the elves, the poisoning and departure of her mother, the final separation from her family and race and, finnaly, the departing (premature some might say) of Aragorn. This last tragic moment in her life must have topped them all - here is the man for whom she foresook everything, and he just couldn't stay around more. I know, I know, he is supposed to embody the great virtues Men should have displayed in their unmarred state, including willful departure, but I can't help thinking he was a wee bit egoistic.

[Aaron]

Egotistic? Well, he was certainly no saint but if he lived on he would become a shadow of his former self and in the long run that would be crueller on Arwen.

[Folwren]

Frodo's departure from the Grey Havens, definitely. That or when Sam thought that Frodo was dead after Shelob attacked him and Sam was trying to figure out what he should do.

Boromir's death. He had so much potential for good and yet he was cut short before his time.

I think his death is sad, too, but consider it a mercy that the professor killed him when he did and with orcs. Have you ever read the HoME book The Treason of Isengard? In it there is a sort of time line, or lay out of the book, that Tolkien wrote and he was going to have Boromir go on and get worse and worse and eventually get killed by Aragorn... That would have been tragic.

-- Folwren

[Laleena]

I think it was when the COmpany departed their seperate ways. I had always hoped that they would stay together and not part often.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This is a good question that can be answered by newcomers as well as long-time Tolkien readers. Because it involves opinions, not actual book discussion, I'm going to move it to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to read and post there - thanks!

[Aaron]

I think it was when the COmpany departed their seperate ways. I had always hoped that they would stay together and not part often.
I know exactly what you mean. Gimli's words about how they will never all be together again really saddened me. A sadness worsened when I read the timeline of what happened at the close of the War of The Ring.

[Farael]

Well, to me one of the saddest moments was when Gandalf fell in the mines of Moria. I read The Hobbit first, and then LoTR so I had a soft spot for the old greybeard already.... and it was so sad (and tragic) that he fell to protect the ones he cared about.

Of course when we find out he wasn't dead after all, I was really happy.

Another really tense moment for me was when the orcs take Frodo away. Perhaps it was not tragic in the same way Aragorn's passing away may have been, but I remember finishing The Two Towers and wanting to run to the bookstore to get The Return of The King... even though it was a weekday, close to 10 PM :p

[Folwren]

Haha! You remember that well, do you, Farael? I was lucky - we own the entire trillogy, so I'm not one of those many people who didn't know that they desperately need to have the RotK directly after the TT. Not that it helps anyway, because it goes to Pippin at the beginning of the RotK instead of telling what happens to Frodo.

But, yes, I think that practically the entire Choices of Master Samwise is the one of the saddest parts, and when Frodo's being taken away by the orcs is part of that. *sniff* :(

My sister thought that the Breaking of the Fellowship was one of the most tragic parts, but she's not here to say so, so I'll say it for her. :D

-- Folwren

[Volo]

The deaths of Thorin, Fili and Kili. And the tomb of Balin in Moria. The Hobbit being one of the first not-so-children-story-books that was read to me. I really got attached to the dwarves and the book being rather friendly to them (if you get what I mean) before the very end...

[CSteefel]

The departing of Aragorn; all in all, Arwen must have had the most tragic fate of all elves - she experienced the inherent sadness of the elves, the poisoning and departure of her mother, the final separation from her family and race and, finnaly, the departing (premature some might say) of Aragorn. This last tragic moment in her life must have topped them all - here is the man for whom she foresook everything, and he just couldn't stay around more. I know, I know, he is supposed to embody the great virtues Men should have displayed in their unmarred state, including willful departure, but I can't help thinking he was a wee bit egoistic.
This might be tragic, but it is in keeping with his fundamentally mortal nature, which he recognizes and accepts. Aragorn was a heroic throwback to the Kings of Numenor, before they became unwilling to lay down their lives of their own free will. Aragorn might have lasted a few more years, but not without descending into senility or some other such infirmity. The key here is to lay down one's life willingly, not to time one's descent into senility and infirmity exactly. So I think Aragorn did as he should have in this case, and in fact, really did not have another meaningful choice.

Perhaps the tragic part was that he convinced Arwen to join with him and become mortal herself. Once she did this, the die were cast, as they say... So if Aragorn is a wee bit egotistical, then it is in joining with Arwen in the first place, rather than letting her go into the West (perhaps this is what you meant).

Anyway, I agree there is a tragic element here, I just don't think it can be attributed to Aragorn's early departure--the tragic part is that Arwen laid down her immortality and only fully realized what this meant at the very end.

[The Saucepan Man]

Anyway, I agree there is a tragic element here, I just don't think it can be attributed to Aragorn's early departure--the tragic part is that Arwen laid down her immortality and only fully realized what this meant at the very end.But is it so tragic? By making her choice, Arwen sundered herself permanently from her (birth) family, which must have caused her great sadness. But she did so to spend the remainder of her (now) mortal days with the one that she loved. And beyond that? No one knows. But the hope is that she will spend the rest of eternity with him (and their mortal descendants) beyond the circles of the world.

[Folwren]

But is it so tragic? By making her choice, Arwen sundered herself permanently from her (birth) family, which must have caused her great sadness. But she did so to spend the remainder of her (now) mortal days with the one that she loved. And beyond that? No one knows. But the hope is that she will spend the rest of eternity with him (and their mortal descendants) beyond the circles of the world.

What you say is true. Living forever in a fleshly form and body as the elves did would become wearisome, especially if you left someone you who loved enough to marry. It would haunt you forever. I think her choice is beautiful, even if it is somewhat sad.

-- Folwren

[Bêthberry]

I cannot help but think it is an emblem of most women's lives, given in sacrifice to others and then completely forgotten. Almost beyond what I would expect of Tolkien, but not quite.

[Folwren]

What you say, Bethberry, reminds me of the part in the book when Pippin first sees Eowyn dressed as a man and when she looks up with the look in her eye of one searching for death. . .don't know why it reminds me of that part, but that was rather tragic.

-- Folwren

[doug*platypus]

If we're talking about LOTR, then I think that Frodo's failure to find healing on his return to the Shire is tragic:
On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. "It is gone for ever," he said, "and now all is dark and empty."
But the most tragic IMHO is the fall of Saruman from wise and noble head of the White Council to a beggar in the wilderness, without home or means to survive. Of course, his later deeds in the Shire make me feel less pity for him!

If we're talking about all of Tolkien's books, then The Silmarillion is tragerama! Page after page of sorrow and loss! Most tragic in all the books, I would say, is Fingolfin's vain attempt to take Morgoth down in single combat.
Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him.
Although, if anyone were to argue that Túrin's life story were more tragic, I could not say much in way of argument.

[Thinlómien]

Definitely the few last phrases of Quenta Silmarillion. *sniff*

[Bêthberry]

What you say, Bethberry, reminds me of the part in the book when Pippin first sees Eowyn dressed as a man and when she looks up with the look in her eye of one searching for death. . .don't know why it reminds me of that part, but that was rather tragic.

-- Folwren

Hmm, yes. Tolkien's depiction of women was rather tragic, eh?

[Aaron]

Not really. I never felt an ounce of pity for Eowyn, Arwen meanwhile truly was doomed but it was a doom created by her own ignorance. Surely no intelligent person would give up immortality? That is the problem when one is governed by the heart and not the head.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not really. I never felt an ounce of pity for Eowyn, Arwen meanwhile truly was doomed but it was a doom created by her own ignorance. Surely no intelligent person would give up immortality? That is the problem when one is governed by the heart and not the head.
Oh, you romantic...
And after all, what does one's life mean when he has nothing to live for? Literally, you can preserve immortality, but "dwell in the dimming world...", in the material way, you might be immortal, but actually, you are not alive anymore. Your *real* life is gone, and how do you get it back?

And the most tragic moment? I'd consider before I say "tragic" that there are few really "tragic" moments in Tolkien's work - both LotR and Sil are much rather, as said by d*p up there, "full of sorrow on each page" (well, maybe not each, but mostly) - but this is, in most cases, compensated by joy, happiness, or just a blink of hope, which makes all the sorrowful things seem in some other light even beautiful: beautiful and sad, that is I think the best description for all LotR. Even Fingolfin's death, much like Maedhros' rescue by Fingon, have glimpses of joy in them: in case of Fingolfin, there is his bravery and what he was able to do before he died: he hurt Morgoth seven times. And even then, you see, his body was not left to rot dishonorably in Angband (or worse), but it was taken out by the Eagles. I should mention that I associate Fingolfin's death with one similar moment, which I consider similar weight, but it is not from Silmarillion nor from LotR: it is the death of Thorin Oakenshield, as mentioned by Volo. His last speech to Bilbo is a moment which would make me cry, as much as it did move Bilbo. And Maedhros and Fingon - this is a beautiful example of restoring friendship, and of a friendship stronger than anything, although the picture of the beautiful and gifted Noldo being tortured by tying him up there on Thangorodrim and then having to get his arm cut by his best friend is rather tragic, it is one of the strongest moments of all for me.

Bethberry, you are right about the women - taking not just Arwen, Eowyn, but even Entwives or Elladan,Elrohir&Arwen's mother Celebrían... women had never joyful fate in Tolkien's work. Not mentioning the Old Test.... eh, meaning Silmarillion women :D Finduilas, Nienor, Melian... Lúthien *ahem* we all know it...

But if I had to say if there were some whose fate was really tragic, REALLY TRAGIC, without any compensation for their suffering, or at least which I consider not to have died by such a heroic death, you know, those who were not celebrated at least in their death, I'd say Túrin Turambar.

[Thinlómien]

I second... wait, third... the death of Thorin. It had been a long time since I had last read the Hobbit when I reread it this spring and I did cry while reading his death and last words to Bilbo. It's truly a moving scene.

If tragicness (???) is measured in when do I cry when I read the books, Gollum's glimpse of his old good self in Cirith Ungol and Sam banishing it is one for sure.

Théoden's death is also one of those moments. I don't know if it should be tragic, but sad. After all, he was an old man and his fate was fulfilled and he left the world the way he wanted and when he had no objections to death. I always think "tragic" is something that should not happen, it's not "right" and sad, but "wrong" and sad. Thus, Théoden's death is not a tragic moment, but just a sad moment full of grief.

[calandil]

frodo's final parting from middle earth.just when they all thought that their work was done,its time for heartache again!!

also faramir's rememberance of his brother whom he so dearly loved :(

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't see Frodo being taken by orcs as anything tragic, the same goes for everything happening around that time. For me it worked as a "cliff-hanger" It was exitment not sadnessed I felt.

I must say that I am quite the opposite of Aaron, I never really felt any pitty for Arwen, she made a choise and I am sure it was the right thing for her and that she was happy with that choise.

Eowyn on the other hand I did feel a bit pitty for, her "doom" was not really of her own making.

The most tragic thing I can think of right now, is when Hurin and Morwen meet and realises that their children are dead. It brought a tear to my eye when I re-read the Sil this summer.

[Nogrod]

I think the fate of the elves should be considered too. Especially the waning and sorrow or Galadriel hit me quite hard, at least when I was younger (nowadays I think I see her in a bit more wider perspective and as a more complex character not to jump out from among the others). They had to give up their land and their love; all they had built and cared for, all which they had sacrificed to defend during the millenia... To pass away before a new and less enchanted time.

That I find tragic. The inevitable wheel of time crushing the old ways, the coming of the era of men and the machine...

Or is it more like anguishing, heart-breaking, sorrowing, romanticising even rather than tragic?

A most tragic individual fate: Turin Turambar (as someone already noted), surely.

[Child of the 7th Age]

If you were to ask me what scene in LotR was most likely to make me personally sad, I would have said the moment of Frodo's departure from the Grey Havens. There is such a hard necessity in that scene. He has been hurt so badly, and there is nothing he or his friends can do to allow him to stay within the Shire, although the Shire was the whole reason he undertook the quest.

But this question is a little different. We're talking about the "most tragic" part of the books as a whole, which I assume includes the whole of Tolkien's subcreation. To me these words sum up the tragedy of Tolkien's world.

Men may sail now West, if they will, as far as they may, and come no nearer to Valinor or the Blessed Realm, but return only into the east and so back again; for the world is round and finite, and a circle inescapable---save by death. Only the "immortals", the lingering Elves, may still if they will, wearying of the circle of the world, take ship and find the 'straight way', and come to the ancient or True West, and be at peace.

And it is not just the men of Arda who are pulled into this tragedy. It's us as well. There's that sense of standing on the shore with Sam and watching Frodo's boat disappear over the horison but there is nothing you can do to bridge that gap. Something is gone from the world when you come to the end of LotR. Long before, men had lost the chance to sail to the Blessed Lands and now even the Elves depart from the shores of Middle-earth.

Man's doom is not easy. There's so much we don't know and can only guess at. Even Tolkien with all his faith expresses that in his personal letters. Some readers express that loss in their own lives in terms of religion, while others speak of the withdrawal of faerie. But whatever that sadness signifies for each of us, there is an implacable sense that something is missing. At the end of the book I am not only grieving for Frodo's loss, but also for my own.

**********

Nogrod -- I think you and I are saying the same thing in different ways.....

[Bêthberry]

About Tolkien's women, there are, indeed, many meanings of 'tragic', as Legate has suggested.

But if I had to say if there were some whose fate was really tragic, REALLY TRAGIC, without any compensation for their suffering, or at least which I consider not to have died by such a heroic death, you know, those who were not celebrated at least in their death, I'd say Túrin Turambar.


A most tragic individual fate: Turin Turambar

Turin surely is Tolkien's classic tragic hero, undeserving of the terrible fate meted out to him.


We're talking about the "most tragic" part of the books as a whole, which I assume includes the whole of Tolkien's subcreation. To me these words sum up the tragedy of Tolkien's world.


Men may sail now West, if they will, as far as they may, and come no nearer to Valinor or the Blessed Realm, but return only into the east and so back again; for the world is round and finite, and a circle inescapable---save by death. Only the "immortals", the lingering Elves, may still if they will, wearying of the circle of the world, take ship and find the 'straight way', and come to the ancient or True West, and be at peace.

And it is not just the men of Arda who are pulled into this tragedy. It's us as well. There's that sense of standing on the shore with Sam and watching Frodo's boat set sail and disappear over the horison but there is nothing you can do to join him. Something is gone from the world, when you come to the end of LotR. Long before, men had lost the chance to sail to the Blessed Lands and now even the Elves depart the shores of Middle-earth. Men are left behind, and there is no way to close that gap.


If we consider the meaning of tragic which pertains to Turin, does this meaning apply to this situation which Child has poignantly described? What is it about Eru's creation that has to fall short of its perfection?

Tolkien seems to have explored many of the word's meanings.

[Thinlómien]

I think some of us, me especially, are mixing up the words "tragic" and "moving"...

[Aaron]

Isn't it odd that although Sams sharp words destroy Gollum's chance of redemption people still beleive him to be "good"?

[Bêthberry]

I think some of us, me especially, are mixing up the words "tragic" and "moving"...

The argument can be made that words mean what the people who use them intend them to mean, Thin, 'cause that's how words change meanings.

Besides, I think several of us have been working with different meanings. ;) :)

[Aiwendil]

The argument can be made that words mean what the people who use them intend them to mean, Thin, 'cause that's how words change meanings.

Yet if I decide to mean "up" when I say "down", I can hardly complain when I am misunderstood.

The moment that strikes me as most tragic in Tolkien's writing is when Ungoliant sucks the Trees dry of their light. If we're just talking about LotR, I suppose it would be the moment when Gollum almost repents and is then told off by Sam.

Actually, on second thought, the most tragic thing is the fact that Tolkien never wrote a full Tale of Earendil.

[Rikae]

Isn't it odd that although Sams sharp words destroy Gollum's chance of redemption people still beleive him to be "good"?
That's probably the part I considered the most tragic...
but I don't think it's odd that people consider Sam good. Sam had no idea what he was doing when he said those words, which makes it all the more heartbreaking, I think.

[Nogrod]

The argument can be made that words mean what the people who use them intend them to mean, Thin, 'cause that's how words change meanings."The meaning of a word is in the use of it", said a man named Ludwig Wittgenstein. And at least as it comes to this prohibiting any eternal or transcendent "meanings" that might lurk behind the everyday words we use, I think he was right. But there is the head-banger involved in here too. If the words only mean what we intend them to mean, so how can we intend them to mean something in the first place? :confused:

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This post like Wittgenstein belongs in a philosophical discution, don't you think?

[Aiwendil]

"The meaning of a word is in the use of it", said a man named Ludwig Wittgenstein.

Sure, an older Wittgenstein who had rather lost his philosophical way. The young Wittgenstein said:

A name means an object. The object is its meaning.

[Nogrod]

Sure, an older Wittgenstein who had rather lost his philosophical way.Or who had indeed found it after his premature naivete... :D

But yes, as Rune said: This post like Wittgenstein belongs in a philosophical discution, don't you think?So I'll leave it be.

But the point I tried to make alongside Bethberry was that we seem to speak about lots of somewhat different things here as we discuss "the most tragic part", but that it does not mean we are "mixing things up". Quite on the contrary it seems most natural to me.

If I try to say what was the most tragic part in the books or if I try to say what is the thing that moved me most deeply or which thing gave me that beautiful anguishing feeling of sadness... I'm not able to see who or what could make decisions concerning the definition of these things if not us language users in our communication trying to understand one another.

The tragicness of Turin's life and death are of a different sort than the anguish we're experiencing from reading about the inevitable waning of the elven race. So can we use the same word tragic to cover both instances? Why not? But it requires that we open up the things we mean by tragicness and share our points thus enriching the conceptual world we live in and share with each other...

---------
Back to the topic. Child added Frodo's departure to the most tragic moments. I do agree with her here somewhat. Frodo's departure does not concern only Sam and the other hobbits, but us readers as well. There is a strong feeling of this world being left to go on with its own (thus combining to the theme of the waning elves) after being guided by powers more enlightened than human minds. But I can see all this also as a challenge and liberation too. From that moment on it's up to us humans what we do and how we do it. So there is the hope and there is the fear. Learning to walk on our own feet... do we stumble or not? But is it tragic then if it carries a hope within it?

[Sadreen]

I think it was when the COmpany departed their seperate ways. I had always hoped that they would stay together and not part often.


Absoulutly

[Thinlómien]

This post like Wittgenstein belongs in a philosophical discution, don't you think?Indeed. Tsk, tsk, too much work Noggie. The point is to bring BD to RL not RL to BD. :p

--------------

One more tragic/sad/moving scene that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fate of Finrod Felagund. First his people abandon him (apart from a few faithful ones) and then Sauron kills him while he defends his friend Beren. A sad fate for one of the greatest of the Eldar (or for anyone else, for that matter).

---------------

Maybe I could make a little sub-poll too (since almost everyone mentions this story):
What in your opinion is the most tragic thing that happens Narn-i-hín-Húrin?

It always grieves me the most what happens to Beleg. Also, the scene where Morwen and Húrin meet at their children's grave is really tragic.

[lathspell]

Well, the most tragic moment...


Frodo's realisation that he has to run for it and has to leave the shire and his friends comes pretty close, I guess.

[Bêthberry]

The point is to bring BD to RL not RL to BD. :p

What? Bring this looneybin of nightgaunts to RL? I don't think it ready for us yet, Thin.

I'd like to thank Noggie for realising what my point was, that in common usage "tragic" is not limited to just the formal, classical meaning, so it isn't a question of "mixing it up" but of clarifying how we use the word. After all, I myself was making an offhand nod to a particular meaning ....

And anyways, why can't we discuss Wittgenstein? LMP talks about Barfield. Or are we only supposed to talk about writers who agree with Tolkien or who Tolkien agreed with? Maybe his ideas about language aren't the only ones out there.


But is it tragic then if it carries a hope within it?

Well, isn't the end of every tragedy supposed to bring us back out of the horror?

[Nogrod]

Well, isn't the end of every tragedy supposed to bring us back out of the horror?It might depend on the time and the author... :)

But this also raises the question whether a tragedy should give us the hope or the uplifting with it's content, by somehow suggesting that there still are lives to live for or hope in the horizon (like I see LotR doing it)? Or is it just this katharsis that Aristotle spoke of, where it is the general characteristics of a tragedy to let us experience the strong and frightening feelings in a safe way and thus feel relieved emotinally? So what makes a tragedy: the actual content of it or the reaction it arouses in us? :smokin:

[Aaron]

But is there hope at the end of LOTR? The Ents will die out, the elves are leaving, Gandalf has exhausted his purpose. It all seems quite nihilistic to me.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Treebeard still had hope that the Entviewes would be found, surely it does not look like it, but the hope remains.

The Elves are leaving yes, but that is not devistating at all. Beautiful things will disapear, but only from middle-earth. It was not like men had much interfearing with elves anyway.

Hehe the very fact that Gandalf is leaving signals hope! He was only around when there was very little hope, him leaving is a sign of better days to come.

This being said I must admit that all of these things makes me sad, but that is not the same as it takes away hope.

(only the hope of Legolas and Gandalf running an entling-kindergarden is no more)

[Bêthberry]

The Shire was successfully defended. The party tree grew back. Merry and Pippin had progeny. Sam and Rosie had a baker's dozen--lots more than Aragorn and Arwen, who must have been busy with ruling etc. The Shire expanded its territory. Eowyn and Faramir redeveloped Ithilien. Dale recovered well.

Does change always mean a defeat of hope? I don't think so.

[Nogrod]

Does change always mean a defeat of hope? I don't think so.If you ask Nietzsche, Tolstoy, Jünger, Heidegger... yes it does. But if you ask the enlightenment philosophers, Marx, J.S. Mill, the socialist movement, the technocrats... no it doesn't. Change is for the better or worse. :D

But as a true romantic, J.R.R. did not love change?

[Aaron]

I am the same, I think the tragedy is that you grow so attached to the characters and they mean so much to you as a reader that in a sense you yearn for further perils so that they can continue as they did in the past. But all things eventually change.

[alatar]

Does change always mean a defeat of hope? I don't think so.
No matter how much you scrape, you eventually run out of butter for your toast. You could give up on breakfast altogether, and sit on your duff despondently in the kitchen, or simply microwave some waffles.

[Bêthberry]

But as a true romantic, J.R.R. did not love change?

But was J.R. "a true romantic"? Oh, my, we have another word to define!



I think the tragedy is that you grow so attached to the characters and they mean so much to you as a reader that in a sense you yearn for further perils so that they can continue as they did in the past.

Ghoulish, isn't it, how much enjoyment some have in wanting to see others struggle even more.


You could give up on breakfast altogether, and sit on your duff despondently in the kitchen, or simply microwave some waffles.

Tragic, en't it, how the standards of cookery have declined with that wretched microwave.

[alatar]

Tragic, en't it, how the standards of cookery have declined with that wretched microwave.
Tragedy is not being able to leave the Shire, to leave that which is comfortable and familiar for that which is unknown. Maybe Eru permitted Sauron in order to kick the Elves out of their kitchen (stocked mainly with regrets, formaldehyde and songs about how things used to be) and onto either the East or West Road.

If only Biblo hadn't left his door.

[Thinlómien]

Does change always mean a defeat of hope? I don't think so.No, it doesn't. Or yes, it does defeat some hope, but not all hope. Change can be good, bad or neutral, but it always leaves the heart longing for something. I guess that human is such a languor-minded species that when happy, s/he finds some, however little, good things s/he misses in the previous horrible state, though s/he does not miss the horrible thing per se.

(Am I making any sense :confused: ?)

[Nogrod]

(Am I making any sense?)A lot, I think.

In totally desperate situations people are able to tend even a tiniest spark of hope and in the moments of luxury and ease they are able to long for harder times. :D

But yes. I see a lot of hope there in the end of the LotR. It will be different, but not just bad or terrible. And in our "good ages" we may then long for the past strifes and troubles with their honour and beauty. Like good romantics do. (Touché, Bêthberry - we really should define that word, but maybe next time? :) )

[yavanna II]

Does change always mean a defeat of hope? I don't think so.

Entrophy, my dears. It's a universal law, and it (I think) applies to Tolkien's world as well. But that doesn't mean there's always a defeat of hope, because if there is, then ME and Arda would have been destroyed beyond repair.

[Mänwe]

I personally would say that the entrance, rather the inclusion of Tom Bombadil was the most tragic event. Tolkien introduced us to a character that immediately 'stuck out'. A character you knew was something special, but whose involvement was cruelly cut short and confined to a mere few pages, never being fully developed or explained.

Perhaps something that made him one of the better characters. Alas, I sigh and can only dream.

[alatar]

Entrophy, my dears. It's a universal law, and it (I think) applies to Tolkien's world as well. But that doesn't mean there's always a defeat of hope, because if there is, then ME and Arda would have been destroyed beyond repair.
Truly the Second Law rules the day, and will have the last laugh, though none be present to hear it, but remember, this Law has been in effect since Day 1 (you know what I mean) and all must bow before it, yet localized systems of order have appeared, and so we have galaxies, planets, persons, the Children of Beren and Tinúviel, the Last Alliance...

All is not lost.

[MatthewM]

- Boromir's Death

- Frodo's departure to the Grey Havens

- Reading the appendices timeline when the story is over :(

[alatar]

Frodo leaving these eastern shores and the Shire. He gave so much, and nothing was left for him. For the others (except Boromir), there was life after the Third Age. Not for Frodo. He still carried the Third Age in his head, hand and heart, and only Aman offered the possibility of healing.

[Bêthberry]

This thread has got me humming an old song of Lou Reed's, with a slight displacement of at least one word. I suppose we could have a go at revising the entire thing.

This tragic moment (http://www.lynchnet.com/lh/magic.html)

:p

[mhagain]

Has to be the death of Thingol.

I know it's not canon, but the published version just works so much better than any of the treatments JRRT himself wrote.

"So died in the deep places of Menegroth Elwe singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Illuvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor, with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril."

Sob!

[Nogrod]

Entrophy, my dears. It's a universal law, and it (I think) applies to Tolkien's world as well. But that doesn't mean there's always a defeat of hope, because if there is, then ME and Arda would have been destroyed beyond repair.Isn't it so, that order and organisation can be introduced into any system if it comes from outside it, and if there is no outside force to create order then everything will go towards disorder? (The original law, if I recollect it right, says something like that the differences will smooth down and thrive towards being even)

So the outer forces from the point of view of ME have been all the time backing the order (t)here: the Valar, the Maiar and even the elves in their own way. Now they are leaving it all to us humans in the end of the stories.

So we humans can still affect things outside ourselves, eg. molding stone into beautifully organised patterns like statues or great architecture, bringing sounds together to make organised music and whatever. But there is no force any more to hold us humans in balance or order? So how long can we fight this alone?

If one looks at different myths from around the world, there seems to be a recurrent theme where people are created to fight alongside gods to defeat disorder or chaos (the Northern legends, the Babylonians, somewhat the Bible or the Indian Veda's too) or there is a strong emphasis on the importance of balance / order, like in Asian world-views etc. Maybe we humans have the hope (coming back to my theme) then anyhow? Can we sustain the order of things against the natural law of chaos gaining ground everywhere? With the law of entropy, we are forced to fight against it every minute as we are without the help from beyond our system, now as all the forces that might help us have withdrawn!

Isn't this the most tragic thing in the books?

Or are these just old-time "religious" views of the world that do not appreciate the fact that we humans have made all the order and happiness ourselves in the first place?

Or is the tragedy in there as we can't know, which one of the answers is the right one? :confused:

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

sorry nogrod i lost you around the bit where you said
Isn't it so, that order and organisation can be introduced into any system if it comes from outside it

[Lalaith]

A quiet Oxford don called Dodgson pre-empted Wittgenstein by several decades, you know... ;)
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'



As for most tragic moment....the fate of Hurin - who in some versions of the Narn, dies while still in despair. I find that almost unbearable.

[Boromir_bg]

Definately the death of Boromir.

[Amras Oronar]

In the movie the death of Boromir is indeed one a very very tragic moment, perhaps the most tragic I ever seen in a movie (I don't often see tragic movies ;) ). Yet I didn't experience it like that while reading the book.

I think the story of Túrin is the most tragic story Tolkien ever wrote, and the most tragic moment in it is probaly when Glaurung dies and the spell is destroyed, and Túrin and his sister discover they are married to eachother, which ultimately leeds to the suicide of Túrin..

[Boromir_bg]

Yeah,you're probably right.I didn't feel sad when the Uruk-Hais killed in the book.Maybe I felt sad about Boromir in the movie because Sean Bean is one of my favorite actors after "Sharp's rifles". :D

[The Might]

I always thought that Turin had the most tragic fate in the books...I always found it sad how his life ended and the irony of fate...master of doom by doom mastered indeed

in the films, I always found Haldir's death the most tragic moment, with him looking at all the other dead Elves before he died

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I don't have "Letters" with me at the moment, but I think
Tolkien concurs that perhaps the most tragic moment in
LOTR (at least) is when Gollum almost repents but is
dissuaded by Sam's (granted well-meaning) intervention. :(

[Amras Oronar]

Yes the gollum story is very tragic indeed, Frodo finally get's a bit of hope, but then by a misunderstanding Gollum turns all evil again and everything almost fails, I also pitie Frodo soooo much in the bit where he doesn't realize Gollum is against him and trying to get rid of Sam...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I don't think Boromir's death is at all tragic, either in the movies or the book. He earns a noble and honorable death, atoning for his seduction by the Ring. "I am sorry. I have paid." Sad that he dies, sure. Not tragic.

Well, actually, according to the Princeton glossary I can access from my cell phone, tragic means "very sad; especially involving grief or death or destruction". So by that definition, it is tragic. But to me, the word tragic implies a lot more than merely "very sad."

Perhaps this term we must also define.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think Boromir's Death was just the first of many tragic moments in the book. I feel that Treebeard was a wee bit tragic because of there being no more Entwives. I also thought Theoden's death at the hand's of the Witch-King was not only tragic but gut renching. Frodo leaving Middle-Earth was sad for me as well Arwen giving up immortality for the man she loved, that was heart-warming and romantic but was always destined to have a tragic ending.

[Elmo]

My two most tragic moments if when the baby sons of Dior are left out to starve and the end of Numenor - a pointless act of vengeance in which many innocents died made more so when it was perpetrated a a supposedly good character (Don't attack me here its all discussed in the thread Attrocity of the Akallabeth). I think Fingolfin was an idiot who died stupidly and pointlessly.

[ArathorofBarahir]

Boromir's death would have to be one of the most tragic moments of the entire book. I would also rank Theoden's death up there as well.

[Elmo]

I've just read the conversation between Finrod and Andreth, its one of the saddest things I've read in my entire life :( , if I wasn't so full of masculine insecurity I'd cry my eyes out

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Saruman's spirit being turned away. For some reason it always made me sad, does anyone else agree?

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

the saddest part would have to be in the movie where the fell beasts and eagles have the big air fight. all the time they spent making the nazguls charaters and just so you can see them chucked around like rag dolls in the last few scenes.