How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul?

[Menelvagor]

This question belongs to the far history of LotR, but I think it is worth to be discussed:

It is said in the appendices that the Nazgul occupied Minas Ithil (and the Palantir located there) after a long siege, almost 1000 years before the time of LotR. I wonder how Gondor at this point could lose a fortress that was probably not much less mighty than Minas Tirith was at the end of the Third Age. Some years before this happened, Gondor was able to utterly defeat the Nazguls' realm of Angmar in the North sending only a small fraction of its whole army. From where did the Nazgul take the troops at this time, to fight a battle that must have been comparable to the siege of Minas Tirith that is reported in LotR? This must imply that Mordor was full of Orcs already at this time, but if this is true, why did Sauron and the Nazgul wait for more than 1000 years until their final attack to Gondor? Is this not an inconsistency in the whole plot (or did Shelob play some role in turning Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul)?

By the way, please excuse that I cannot give exact quotations here, since I only have (German) translations of the books. But I know and like Tolkien's books for more than 25 years, and so I have decided to take part in your discussions...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

By the way, please excuse that I cannot give exact quotations here, since I only have (German) translations of the books. But I know and like Tolkien's books for more than 25 years, and so I have decided to take part in your discussions...
Don't worry, you are not the only one here who can't quote directly, I, for example, have only Czech translations (hello, neigbor ;) )

But to the question you posed. My opinion is this - just opinion, nothing more, but I hope another perspective might help to solve this out. So, I was thinking like this: Minas Morgul was taken, but I don't necessarily think it was taken by Orcs at the time (or, there might have been Orcs present, but not as an army I think - maybe just some raid here, some raid there... whatever). Had it been open warfare, Gondor would probably strike out and deal with it (as you pointed out, it was some 30 years after they defeated Angmar). I confess that I have no idea how they did it, but if I look to the Appendices as you mentioned - ah, the unexact quotation comes, please if someone has original, post it here, I'd like to know how much I have strayed from the original *lol*:
"It was during the reign of king Eärnil, as was revealed later, when the Witch-King on his flight from the North came to Mordor and there he assembled the other Ringwraith whose leader he was. But it was not until the year 2000 when they came out of Mordor through the pass of Cirith Ungol and besieged Minas Ithil. They captured it in 2002..." (and so on :) )

The Witch-king came to Mordor and he assembled the other Ringwraith - no Orc mentioned. I'm not saying that there were none (but maybe...?), but it seems that they were not so important for this. And they = ringwraith, came out of Mordor, and they (also as Faramir says) have taken Minas Morgul. It was the Ringwraith who have done the most important part of the job, I guess similar as to when Osgiliath was taken when Boromir and Faramir were there (FotR, Elrond's Council, Boromir speaks of "black rider" (Witch-king) and "wherever he came, both men and horses were as driven by madness").
What confuses me, is the "siege" part - I just can't imagine nine nazgul standing in front of the gates of Minas Ithil for two years. My point of view is like that: the nazgul and some Orc started to trouble the surroundings of Minas Ithil, more of a guerilla war, much like the later Rangers of Ithilien, and in 2002, they finally - somehow by sneaking in there, or by treachery - got inside Minas Ithil, and in the horror and panic the Nazgul caused most of the inhabitants have fled or were slain. I know this is not good, but it is all that I can think of.

(or did Shelob play some role in turning Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul)?
I don't think Shelob had something to do with it. She was not joined with Sauron (as very nicely described in the TT on the parallel with the cat). It is written that the Ringwraith have come to Imlad Morgul through Cirith Ungol, but there is no mentioning of "taking Shelob along". So she probably was there for herself, as before, and as after. Just don't think Tolkien would go for it. Nevertheless, it is an interesting thought.

[Boromir88]

I think Legate's guess is as good as any. We aren't really told of any details (besides what Legate has quoted in Appendix A - which is all that's said in my published version)...The Witch-King gathered the other Nazgul in Mordor and laid siege to Minas Ithil.

If it was a siege for two years we'd assume there was an army involved as well...as I agree it doesn't make sense that 9 Nazgul would be outside the gates for two years.

As Legate also mentions Boromir credits the Witch-King with being the most influential in Gondor losing the western half of Osgiliath:
...;but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before.~The Council of Elrond
And that power was as Boromir would call...'The Black Captain.'

There's not really much more to add, except I don't think this 'siege' would be comparable to that of the siege of Minas Tirith. Eventhough if it did last longer, there probably wasn't a great amount of forces involved. A description of Mordor during King Hyarmendacil's reign in T.A. 1050 is this:
"Mordor was desolate, but was watched over by great fortresses that guarded the passes."~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heir's of Anarion
This would be referring to Minas Ithil, then it falls in T.A. 2002.

I don't think it was a huge battle at all, there was probably relatively low amount of forces involved. As after the fall of Minas Ithil, it is pretty much ignored. Nobody suspects anything, the Council of the Wise don't think Sauron has come back until over 50 years later (T.A. 2060)...that is when the Council of the Wise begin to start watching out for Sauron more, as the siege upon Minas Ithil seems to be rather passed off as 'unimportant.' And people don't start worrying about Sauron until half a century later.

After Sauron returns Mordor's forces start growing exponentially and assaults upon Gondor start renewing. My guess is that after Sauron's fall, there was some watch put around Mordor to see if Sauron would come back. But after some many years of 'inactivity' and Mordor being 'desolate,' plus with assaults from Angmar and Dol Guldur, that seemed to grab attention more than out in the 'desolate' Mordor. So, watching Mordor became less important as to watching Angmar and Dol Guldur.

That's just when the Witch-King slips away out of the North, gathers the Nazgul and launches an assault on Minas Ithil, taking it 2 years later. Even after that, the Council of the Wise and others still don't think much of it it seems.

[Beleg Cuthalion]

I'd like to point out that Minas Ithil was a walled city not a fortess, it is of course often is refered to as the tower, its most prominent building and the mark of the city. So it might not be as difficult to take by force as Minas Tirith which was built as a outpost/fortress (not so much as a city), guarding the Northern and Western approach to Osgiliath. So tacticaly, it would probably be easier to lay siege to and take.

[Lalwendë]

The siege lasted two years? Then I'm not surprised that Minas Ithil was eventually taken, as conditions must have become unbearable for those besieged. Presumably they must ahve had a significant supply of food to last that long, but other factors such as disease would have a terrible impact.

Though you'd have thought that even had it been under siege then Gondor might have been able to send an army up there to fight off the challengers and relieve the city? This must mean that either Gondor were depleted in resources or their attentions were being divided and resources not being made fully available to relieve Minas Ithil.

[CSteefel]

Or as I believe Tolkien mentioned (through one of his characters, perhaps Boromir?) that the watch on Mordor faltered. Presumably the forces were simply not there to deal with this attack...

[doom_hammer]

im not sure if this will make any diference but how many men were there guarding minas ithil

[will.r.french]

Or as I believe Tolkien mentioned (through one of his characters, perhaps Boromir?) that the watch on Mordor faltered. Presumably the forces were simply not there to deal with this attack...
As far as I remember, Boromir never volunteered such information. He was very proud that Gondor was the guardian of the west lands, as he and his kingdom held the eastern front against mordor. Following one of his very proud speeches at the Council of Elrond, I believe Aragorn then countered with the fact that the nine Ringwraiths were riding well beyond Gondor's borders, openly searching for the ring in the western lands. Thus Boromir's foundation for such pride is not as sturdy as he believes. To this (if my memory serves me right) he never really responded or even acknowledged.

Or is that even what we were talking about...

[Damrod]

I'm a little confused about what Boromir88 said about this-
the Council of the Wise begin to start watching out for Sauron more, as the siege upon Minas Ithil seems to be rather passed off as 'unimportant.' And people don't start worrying about Sauron until half a century later.

Wouldn't the Wise be concerned about this--a full assembly of the Nine, on the doorstep of Mordor, besieging one of the chief cities of the South? Especially since they're 'watching out for Sauron more'. I don't really know myself, I mean, all we have to analyze are a couple dates and vague references. Perhaps the answer was Numenorean pride:"We've got this Minas Ithil thing managed. Gondor can solve its own problems!"

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps the Nazgul "haunted" Minas Ithil into desolation? That might explain why the Nazgul might not have been recognized as such at the time. The people didn't know what they were, there were just these horrible spirits that came to trouble them. The population might have left for no other reason than they were scared off.

Admittedly, this is a bit difficult to reconcile with the connotations of the word "siege" but it is also difficult to reconcile the Witch-King fleeing defeat able to raise an army from an area that was repeatedly described as desolate and empty for a long time previous and then besiege the city for two years without the power that just defeated him in the north doing anything to relieve a city of their own kingdom.

[calandil]

tolkiens writing style has always been a little mystical always giving the reader the outline of the story then leaving it to the reader to fill in the other parts.and thats what makes lotr so special!!! :)

[The 1,000 Reader]

They walked around it for seven days while screeching and on the seventh day the walls fell down.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Recall that the fortresses were built to keep Mordor influences
inside that land. Therefore they presumably had been constructed,
and provisioned, for a longterm policy not only of watching but
combating efforts to retake them. One assumes there had to be a
prolonged effort both of some of the nazgul and orcish/mannish
forces to gradually wear down remnants of Mordor military forces
left there, given the historical connections of Gondor with Minas Ithil
especially. It is curious that the ithil stone wasn't evacuated in time,
which seems to suggest a quick investment of Minas Ithil, which is
apparently in conflict with a subsequent two year siege---the extent
of which indicates at least some Gondor individuals of strong will and
character staying there, (perhaps secret exits/entrances used by
Gondor not unlike those at the back of the Caves of Aglarond and
the paths alluded to to escape from Minas Tirith into the White
Mountains)?

[Kuruharan]

It is curious that the ithil stone wasn't evacuated in time,
which seems to suggest a quick investment of Minas Ithil, which is
apparently in conflict with a subsequent two year siege

I think this reinforces my idea about the haunting strategy. It indicates a lot of confusion and a failure to understand what was happening.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am like the rest quite pussled by this question.

Gondor was strong so how could the Nazgul take it at all and why was it not re-conqured again?

Of course the Nazgul could have taken the city using the element of suprise or something cunning like The Spanish Incuisition and Boromir. But Tolkien tells us that there was a 2 year siege. . .now this implies that the Nazgul most have had a major military force as it takes a bit more than 9 wights and 1 spider to succsesfully lay a siege. Where did they get this force? It does not seems like there was many orcs in Mordor. . .I kind of figured it was men from Harad they used, but somehow I think Tolkien would have told us that.

How on eart could Gondor allow a 2 year seige on one of their major cities where one of the seeing stones were placed? No other war could have been more imperative!? and 2 years should be long enough to gather an army to defeat the Nazgul. Unless the Nazgul was to powerfull for any army when together, but then why did they not take all of Gondor?

Could it be that this is actually a part of the storry Tolkien did not think through?
I am led to belive that he just wrote down some nice story with out thinking down in detail that would fit with the overall picture. I know this is very unlike Tolkien, but I can think of no other possibility. It just doesn't add up.

Sorry for using so much space on saying nothing. . .

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No problem, I think you just summarized it for all of us. I fear this thread might stay unsolved (please, add this question to the list, right below that Balrog and Wings thing). I have only one more thing to add. Why on Earth can't we write a letter to Professor?!?!?!!! :( :( :(

[Sir Kohran]

I guess this is one of Tolkien's rare plot holes. I think what he does wrong here is that he intends for the story of the city's fall to be vague and unexplained, by not telling us what happened and so allowing us to come up with our own theories, but then he goes and uses very specific terms like 'siege' and 'two years' that leave us caught somewhere in the middle, unable to make up our own version or find a canon explanation.

I think it's actually fairly easy to explain the 'siege' term - the eastern lands of Middle Earth and the great wastes that lay beyond it were full of monsters and evil people that could be probably be swayed by the combined power of the Nazgul, and used as a makeshift army that allowed for a proper attack. I could see that happening.

What really confuses me is how the city itself fell. Perhaps if the attack had been sudden and the city seized before anyone had a chance to react, then it would be plausible, but the fact that it took two years seems very odd. Why didn't Gondor send reinforcements? Two years is more than enough time to gather a sizeable force to relieve the defenders. We could assume that the army that took Minas Ithil was too strong to be defeated by any Gondorian army, but then you end up wondering why such a mighty army didn't just take over all of Gondor, if it couldn't be defeated by the Gondorians' combined forces.

The idea that the Gondorians didn't see the city as all that important sounds very strange. One of the greatest cities of the south, and an important tactical base, being attacked by all the nine Nazgul? That would surely be a cause for serious concern.

Also, why did it take that long to subdue the city at all? In a battle, every single second counts for something important, so what could have taken two years to occur? And how did the defenders stay alive for so long? What was their food supply?

I suppose this is just one of those things that we'll never know...

[Farael]

Also, why did it take that long to subdue the city at all? In a battle, every single second counts for something important, so what could have taken two years to occur? And how did the defenders stay alive for so long? What was their food supply?
I think that the answer actually lies in your question. What could have taken two years to occur? and on the other hand, two years is far too long for a siege, food supplies may last for a few months, but I wouldn't think much more than that.

So here is my theory:

The nine Nazghul, along with a few other creatures of evil persuasion, started haunting the areas around Minas Ithil. Now, since there is not an army camped outside, all the might of Gondor might not do much of a difference. Furthermore, if Gondor did not have the resources to spare to launch a "turn every stone, search every cave" kind of attack to find them, it's likely that they would have sat there and hoped for the best, doing small skirmishes if they happened to find a specific hot spot. But this kind of warfare probably had negative effects on the population of Minas Ithil, psychological warfare if you need to give it a name. Eventually the population would flee, until the city would be weakened and no longer a "strong point" for Gondor. Once that happens, it is possible that the Nazghul, leading a smaller army recruited during those two years, would have been able to take the city.

That explains the two-year long "siege" and also how the Nine (with some help, but not necessarily a huge army) were able to take Minas Ithil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is what I had in mind and so far it seems the best alternative, if no one comes up with anything better. It was not possible to bring an army of Easterlings through Ithilien since it remained settled for a long time after this, and also "they came out of Mordor through the pass of Cirith Ungol", and I doubt an army larger than Shagrat's squad could pass through Cirith Ungol. So I agree with Farael's explanation of the term "siege", and I also cannot help but remember the movie "Aliens" in connection with this - you know, a colony full of people, but when a recon team comes to find out why there has been no contact, they see only empty corridors...

[Amras Oronar]

Well for a siege af course you do need a big army, certainly considering it must have beaten all reiforcements that Gondor send to defend Minas Ithil, which af course if it was a massive siege would have happened. Now after being beaten a few deccenia ago, the Witch King could not have gotten a army big enough to lay a siege upon Minas Ithil, it was simply immpossible.

But af course it isn't immpossible that they have taken Minas Ithil, as explained in other posts they could have well taken Minas Ithil by haunting or something simulair.

Now that leaves us with 2 options, or Tolkien misused the term 'Siege' or this is one of his very few mistakes/ subject he hadn't thought through.

[CaptainofDespair]

Hmm...an interesting subject.

I think the discussion so far has neglected (unless I've missed it, which is quite possible) the effect of location. Minas Ithil is basically in Mordor, and the pass that it guards is rather narrow, giving those who sieze it a distinct advantage. Taking this into consideration, I think the term siege fits in quite well. The Nazgul, and whatever army they may have assembled over the course of time, could easily hold such a pass from any returning force of Gondor's while they are sieging it.

A secondary idea to this is that the siege was not on-going in the sense of a constant pounding. With Mordor being 'desolate', I think that the siege could very well be off and on as the Nazgul and their army can manage it. Even if Gondor's army is in short supply of available troops, any force of them is enough to at least deal with orcs. So while Gondor may send small replenishing units of soldiers to garrison in Ithil, the length of the siege, and a potential off and on again nature would in time subdue it.

Yet another side to the location idea is that Ithil is not in Gondor proper. Historically, occupying armies have a very hard time holding a place their people may not care for, considering when it is outside of the homeland. What is there for Ithil to offer, besides as a bastion of defense? And with Sauron himself gone for so long (or at least not on Gondor's doorstep), there may not be enough concern to warrant funneling soldiers to Minas Ithil.

On the question raised by food supply: Barad-dur held out in a siege for seven years, if I recall correctly. Orcs need food too. So then, if a seven year siege can be enacted and maintained, and the defenders can resist it well enough, why not a two year siege at Minas Ithil? It would certainly have fewer mouths to feed.

Anyway, I'm probably ranting and may have gotten off-topic. So I shall retire. :)

[Amras Oronar]

Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar?

And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

[CaptainofDespair]

Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar?

And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

Yes, but the Angmar armies appear to have been relatively self-sufficient. And it is logical that that would be the case, as Mordor is rather far from Angmar. To gather up troops and march them through hostile territory just to assemble them for a northern war would be a disaster. Also, any sighting of Mordor's armies marching north would give the Gondorians reason to assail and crush Sauron once again.

Ithil may indeed be 'Gondorian', but it does not reside in Gondor-proper. By that, I mean in the heartland, not the periphery of its territory. Logistically, it would be difficult when under siege to supply Ithil properly with enough troops and materials. While let-ups in the siege (which seemingly would have to occur based on the amount of time it took) would provide moments to re-supply and garrison the city, Gondor would not be able to effectively control the terrain as it would need to. The terrain easily obstructs such activity, giving the siegers a tactical advantage. And if the siegers can control the mountain passes effectively (and it could very well be done with a small number of troops), then that gives the Nazgul yet another hand up in victory (as well as the fear they themselves bring to the table).

[Amras Oronar]

Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different.

And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?

[CaptainofDespair]

Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different.

And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?

I'm not saying the Mordorian forces were large. I am only saying that any force of orcs, no matter the size, would be able, under the competent commanding of the Witch-King, to hold a small piece of terrain and maintain a long siege. Due to the distance from Gondor, and having to cross Osgiliath and march into mountains that are less than pleasant, it becomes increasingly more difficult for Minas Tirith to direct a war against the besieging forces of the Nazgul, who are more at home in the terrain, as would be their troops.

And Gondor (as in the King) may very well would not want to lose or give up Ithil. But that is irrelevant if they could not do anything. And while Gondorian armies may have helped smash Angmar thirty years earlier, that was thirty years earlier. A lot can happen to a kingdom and its armies in that amount of time.

[Farael]

CaptainOfDespair you bring an interesting point to the argument, but I don't believe that Gondor would have given up Minas Ithil because it was far from the Gondorian mainland. We can all agree that Ilithien was part of "Gondor Proper"... Not to mention Osgiliath. Yet between Mordor and Minas Tirith there were no strong points, or fortresses, other than Minas Ithil. To hold Minas Ithil meant to have the upper hand in controling Ilithien and the roads to Osgiliath, to loose it was to give the upper hand to the forces of Mordor (as it wound up happening).

While it is a good point that Minas Ithil was amidst a desolate land in the far end of the land of Gondor, it was guarding a very rich land, and one of Gondor's main cities, so I don't think how any half-competent ruler would have given up Minas Ithil freely.

Furthermore, the assambling of even a small army of orcs (or evil men or any other living creature for that matter) was also complicated by the fact that, as mentioned many times before, armies need food. As far as I know, at that time Mordor was fairly empty, so I am guessing that the fields by the sea of Rhun were either inhabited or the few orcs or humans there were concerned with their own survival to send food to an army camped at the mountain passes.

[CaptainofDespair]

Despite Ithil's importance, a good leader would not simply toss unit after unit against a siege that they have no hope of winning. Due to the variety of potential factors concerning the siege, and that it was in the end won by the Nazgul, I think it is safe to say that Gondor did not put much fight into keeping the stronghold. Had it been a major war/battle, I think Tolkien might have mentioned more than it just taking two years to fall to the Witch-King.

And on the topic of competent rulers, was the Gondorian King at the time of Ithil's fall an intelligent, wise leader or a fool? We do know that the Wiki taunted Earnur into confrontation at Minas Morgul almost 50 years later (obviously not a wise move). Perhaps the line of the Kings was in decline, and they were becoming foolish. Sort of like Denethor at the end of his life...

Again, on the topic of food, it is very easy for the besieging force to have food, at least for in the initial stages of the assault. Why would the Witch-King, who is quite clearly a competent commander at least, not prepare for the siege ahead of time? I do not think he would simply return the Mordor to siege Minas Ithil without first gathering supplies and forces.

I also feel it would be quite easy for the Nazgul to assemble an army in Mordor. While Gondor had in recent memory beaten Angmar, Ithil had languished under the Great Plague. This reduced the effectiveness of the garrison, culminating in the lapse on the watch of Mordor. With Mordor being so desolate, and perhaps the garrison being reduced significantly, Gondor could not afford to send out detachments into the wastes to search for a gathering enemy, if they even knew about it.

[Alcuin]

I’d like to follow along the same lines laid out by CaptainofDespair.

To set the background, I’d like to clearly demonstrate that the Númenórean fortresses built to guard Mordor had been deserted, abandoned, or their garrisons reduced to levels unable to defend them long before the Nazgûl launched their attack on Minas Ithil in III 2000.

RotK, “Appendix A”, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion”:Atanatar Alcarin son of Hyarmendacil … loved ease and did nothing to maintain the power [of Gondor]. The waning of Gondor had already begun before he died, and was doubtless observed by its enemies. The watch upon Mordor was neglected. Atanatar Alcarin reigned III 1149–1226.

Ibid....in the reign of Telemnar, ... a deadly plague came ... out of the East. The King and all his children died, and great numbers of the people of Gondor, especially those that lived in Osgiliath. Then for weariness and fewness of men the watch on the borders of Mordor ceased and the fortresses that guarded the passes were unmanned.

Later it was noted that these things happened even as the Shadow grew deep in Greenwood, and many evil things reappeared, signs of the arising of Sauron. It ... may well be that the opening of Mordor was what [Sauron] chiefly desired.

…Tarondor, … who succeeded [Telemnar], … removed the king’s house permanently to Minas Anor, for Osgiliath was now partly deserted, and began to fall into ruin. Few of those who had fled from the plague into Ithilien or to the western dales were willing to return.Telemnar died in III 1636 after reigning only two years.

Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”, says of this period that, ...the forts on the borders of Mordor were deserted, and Minas Ithil was emptied of its people; and [the Nazgûl] entered again into the Black Land secretly... Elrond says in FotR, “Council of Elrond”, that the watch upon the walls of Mordor slept, and dark things crept back to Gorgoroth. And on a time evil things came forth, and they took Minas Ithil and abode in it…Essentially, the Towers of the Teeth, Durthang (at the extreme northwestern interior of Mordor), and – it would seem – Cirith Ungol were manned, if at all, by skeleton, token garrisons inadequate to the tasks assigned to them..

From RotK, “The Tower of Cirith Ungol”…was … an eastern outpost of the defenses of Ithilien, made when, after the Last Alliance, Men of Westernesse kept watch on [Mordor.] But as with Narchost and Carchost, the Towers of the Teeth, so here too vigilance … failed, and treachery … yielded up the Tower to the Lord of the Ringwraiths…We are not told when Narchost and Carchost were retaken by the forces of Morgul, but the implication is that this took place before the Tower of Cirith Ungol was seized by the Nazgûl. RotK, “Appendix A”, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion” says that Narmacil II was killed in III 1856 fighting the Wainriders, and in what Tolkien appears to intend to seem a marginal note of a scribe (because it is placed in square brackets), the text reads, “At this time it is thought that the Ringwraiths re-entered Mordor.” This section of the appendix also says that, “In III 1944 King Ondoher and both his sons, Artamir and Faramir, fell in battle [with the Wainriders] north of the Morannon, and the enemy poured into Ithilien.” It might have been around this time that the Towers of the Teeth fell to Gondor’s enemies, perhaps in the guise of coming under the control of the Wainriders, which while quite a problem militarily and in terms of public morale in Gondor, would seem less threatening than if the captains of Gondor realized that the Nazgûl controlled the Towers. But exactly when capture of Narchost and Carchost took place is not mentioned in the Tale of Years (“Appendix B”), or anyplace else, including in the History of Middle-earth series, as far as I know.

I think this shows that the lesser Númenórean fortresses guarding Mordor – Narchost, Carchost, Durthang, Cirith Ungol, and probably others, were either abandoned or militarily ineffective well before III 2000. In addition, the city of Minas Ithil had been severely depopulated, so that most of the folk still in it were probably the soldiery required to man it at some low level of operation and their families; while nearby western Ithilien, from which any immediate reinforcements would normally have been drawn and a counterattack rallied in earlier days, was deserted.


Next, I would like to tackle the contention that Minas Ithil was a “walled city not a fortress.” The purpose of Minas Ithil was to control access to Ithilien and Anduin through the pass over the Ephel Dúath into Mordor. In The Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”, Tolkien says that Isildur and Anárion ... [built] strong places ... upon either [side of Osgiliath]: Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon, eastward upon a shoulder of the Mountains of Shadow as a threat to Mordor; and to the westward Minas Anor, the Tower of the Setting Sun, at the feet of Mount Mindolluin, as a shield against the wild men of the dales. A walled city is not “a threat to Mordor,” but a military fortress is and is intended to be a threat to one’s enemies. Unfinished Tales, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”, footnote 11, specifically refers to Minas Ithil as a “fortress” and states the purpose of its construction:Isildur had sent [two of his sons] to man his fortress of Minas Ithil, lest Sauron should … seek to force a way through Cirith Dúath (later called Cirith Ungol)…I hope that settles the question of whether Minas Ithil was a “fortress” or not.


Now, on to a plausible scenario for the attack, investment, and fall of Minas Ithil.

Sauron’s commanders had taken the city from Isildur in their initial assaults on Gondor in II 3429, and Isildur was forced to retreat. At least some of the Nazgûl must have been in the city and all along the pass during this period, and so some of them must have already been familiar with the city and its environs.

On page 181 of War of the Ring in the chapter “Journey to the Cross-roads”, there is a map labeled “Minas Morghul [sic] and the Cross-roads” showing the cross-roads where Frodo, Sam and Gollum encountered the statue of the king with the fallen head, the road to Minas Morgul, and the Straight Stair (first, steep stair) to Cirith Ungol. I believe this is the basis of Karen Wynn Fonstad’s map in Atlas of Middle-earth, “Path to Cirith Ungol”, which is easier to read. Both maps show old Minas Ithil slightly to the south of the main road, which runs along the bottom of the main pass over the maintains. (The path Frodo & Sam took with Gollum’s guidance was not the main path, but a secondary, narrower, and more treacherous one.) Fonstad reminds us that, “at one point, Frodo could see the Morgul-road in a ravine far below,” and alongside the road ran once-beautiful Ithilduin, the stream that became the polluted Morgulduin. Moreover, the city itself was about a mile from the road “as the crow flies,” but about 2 miles by the twisting road; and it was two or three miles across a ridge that concealed the city from the west unless one walked or rode up the road into the pass at least a mile or more.

With few men at the Tower of Cirith Ungol and the likelihood that the Dúnedain rarely if ever ventured into Shelob’s Lair, it would have been possible for a few of the Nazgûl with a small escort (a few dozen at the most) to slip through Torech Ungol and down the stairs north of the pass. If the Nazgûl were careful and meticulous in their planning, they should have been able first to seize the Tower of Cirith Ungol by treachery – that meant an inside job for which they could select the timing; temporarily close off the narrow western mouth of the ravine from which the pass exited; and then march a force down the road from the Mordor side large enough to block the southern side-road to Minas Ithil from the main road and construct some sort of defensive work across the mouth of the ravine to prevent reinforcements from getting through. Fonstad shows the length of the main road from the Tower of Cirith Ungol to the issue of the pass from the mountains to be about 20 or 25 miles: a distance that might be covered in one day of forced march. The length of time any small “special operations” force on the western end would have to terrorize and fight defenders from Minas Ithil and travelers from the west until the main body of the assault force arrived to hold the western entrance to the pass would then be kept to a bare minimum.

In fact, in Silmarillion, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”, Tolkien confirms that this took place very swiftly: in the days of Eärnil [the Nazgûl] ... came by night out of Mordor over the passes of the Mountains of Shadow, and took Minas Ithil for their abode...All this indicates that the Ringwraiths took the defenders of Minas Ithil off-guard and by surprise. The garrison in Minas Ithil may already have been insufficient for an attack of any importance from Mordor: that, too, seems to be implied by the text. Because they could not merely escape but had to hold the city, the Minas Ithil garrison was unlikely to launch a counterattack into the valley against superior numbers, so that the Nazgûl had only to control access to the western end of the narrow pass to prevent relief from arriving from Osgiliath or Minas Anor, and they must have had sufficient forces at their command for this purpose: I estimate that would require no more than 1500-2000 soldiers, and perhaps considerably fewer even than that. (300 Spartans and 700 Thespians held the Pass of Thermopylae against the entire Persian army for three days.) Essentially, the besiegers would have to completely control the western four or five miles of the narrow road, including the approach road to Minas Ithil. Since the line of the attack was long but very narrow, depth in their position made the Nazgûl’s forces strong, particularly if they could rapidly erect barriers to improve their defenses.

Because there were no longer significant numbers of Dúnedain living near the pass or in the surrounding territory, their numbers having been severely reduced by plague and the economy of the region damaged by the severe depopulation of Osgiliath, any substantial relief force would have had to come from Minas Anor. It took Aragorn and the men he led to the Morannon in RotK over a day to march to Morgul Vale from Minas Tirith; though no doubt they could have made it in one day were they determined to do so; however, it may be that Eärnil II was not immediately prepared to respond, and if he sent out a response in size the next day, it might already have been too late: simple defenses would no doubt have been brought by Morgul army when they first came, and in the ensuing days, trenches and ditches could be dug across the road, stakes planted to prevent cavalry charges, and walls erected on the other of the trenches and ditches, so that unless the invasion was thrown back in the first few days, it would become exponentially more difficult for Gondor to dislodge them.


A word about Shelob. Shelob had apparently been in her lair since before II 1000, when Sauron began the construction of Barad-dûr. (Two Towers, “Shelob’s Lair”: “...she was there ... before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr...”) Sauron found her useful, and called her his cat, and like a cat, she didn’t care a whit about whether he liked her or not. However, she would probably permit the Nazgûl to pass through along with some orcs (or evil men), particularly if one or two were left for lunch – a fate that probably awaited many of the defenders of Minas Ithil captured at the end of the siege. In any case, the Dúnedain probably consciously avoided her and Torech Ungol, especially since they had not been able to get rid of her in the 2000 years since Minas Ithil had been built. It is likely that they did not maintain patrols to the Stairs leading to her lair, and a small group including one or two Nazgûl could slip through without being noticed by the garrison of Minas Ithil. (I am fond of the notion that a few of the Nazgûl did this to cut off access to the western end of the pass, but there is in the texts no evidence for this at all, as far as I am aware.)


By this point, there was simply no way for Gondor to affect the outcome of the siege from the East. They could not get into Mordor at all after losing control of the pass, save by scaling the mountains in very small groups. Carchost and Narchost were probably already under the control of the Nazgûl, so the Morannon was closed to the Dúnedain. The Morgul forces could resupply and reinforce themselves at their leisure from the eastern end of the pass: not that Mordor or the Morgai were particularly pleasant places, but there was Nurn to the south and east, and food and supplies could be brought by caravan across the vast interior of Mordor from southern Rhûn and Khand.

Maps of Mordor show that Gorgoroth occupied only the northwestern quadrant of that land. Nurn is clearly in the southern region with its great inland sea, but the eastern region not cut off from Nurn might also have been arable: there are two rivers flowing from the Ered Lithui and the spur of mountains extended south from them to the Sea of Núrnen. I suspect that most of the foodstuffs required by the attackers for the siege came from Nurn or from eastern Mordor, all of which would reasonably seem to be arable to some extent. It is about 175-185 miles from the north-eastern shores of the Sea of Núrnen to the Tower of Cirith Ungol, probably 10 days journey or less. If necessary, a caravan could travel about 450 miles from southern Rhûn to the Tower of Cirith Ungol, about 22-23 days travel; or about 530-560 miles from central Khand to Cirith Ungol, which might have taken around a month. By comparison, in Unfinished Tales, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”, Isildur hoped to march over 300 leagues from Osgiliath to Rivendell (footnote 6; that would be 900 miles, using Tolkien’s convention of 3 miles to a league, approximately the distance a soldier can march in an hour) in 40 days with his escort of “Dúnedain, tall men of great strength and endurance, … accustomed to move full-armed at eight leagues a day ‘with ease’…” (footnote 9).

The one great advantage that the Dúnedain possessed was their communication by means of the palantíri. The fact that there was a palantír in Minas Ithil must for Sauron have been one of its most attractive features: the Witch-king had failed to capture any of the palantíri of Arnor. However, even with the unquestionably valuable intelligence that the palantíri must have provided, the captains of Gondor had no means of making use of what they learned by means of a force of any significant size, because they could not get to Minas Ithil to break the siege except by the road or over the mountain ridge that cut it off from western Ithilien; and an effective attack on the Morgul forces operating within the interior of Mordor was out of the question: the Nazgûl controlled the road through the pass. It then became a matter of reducing the defenders of Minas Ithil as their food supplies ran out: two years would be about right for an important fortress in a wealthy kingdom.

Even in modern times, sieges can last for extended periods: for example, the Siege of Sarajevo in the 1990s lasted nearly 4 years; the Siege of Leningrad in World War II lasted almost 29 months; Gibraltar has been besieged at least 14 times since the Middle Ages: the last, called the Great Siege, began in 1799 and lasted 3½ years. I think it is reasonable to assume that Denethor would provision Minas Tirith at least as well as the British provisioned Gibraltar: Hirgon the errand-rider of Gondor told Théoden that Minas Tirith had a “very great store long prepared” against a siege of that city (RotK, “Muster of Rohan”). Gamling told Théoden that he and Erkenbrand had “great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder” at Helm’s Deep (Two Towers, “Helm’s Deep”). Minas Ithil should have been well-provisioned, too, given its importance, even if its garrison were small, a shadow of what it had been in the days of Isildur and his sons.

[Mänwe]

Where does it say that Minas Ithil was retaken by Gondor after its initial capture in Second Age, 3441?

It seems everyone thinks that the "siege" was continuous, despite the word "siege" implying obvious constant pressure.

[Kuruharan]

A couple of thoughts…

Next, I would like to tackle the contention that Minas Ithil was a “walled city not a fortress.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

And on the topic of competent rulers, was the Gondorian King at the time of Ithil's fall an intelligent, wise leader or a fool?

The king was Earnil II who was far from incompetent.

The garrison in Minas Ithil may already have been insufficient for an attack of any importance from Mordor: that, too, seems to be implied by the text. Because they could not merely escape but had to hold the city, the Minas Ithil garrison was unlikely to launch a counterattack into the valley against superior numbers, so that the Nazgûl had only to control access to the western end of the narrow pass to prevent relief from arriving from Osgiliath or Minas Anor, and they must have had sufficient forces at their command for this purpose: I estimate that would require no more than 1500-2000 soldiers, and perhaps considerably fewer even than that. (300 Spartans and 700 Thespians held the Pass of Thermopylae against the entire Persian army for three days.) Essentially, the besiegers would have to completely control the western four or five miles of the narrow road, including the approach road to Minas Ithil. Since the line of the attack was long but very narrow, depth in their position made the Nazgûl’s forces strong, particularly if they could rapidly erect barriers to improve their defenses.

While your tactical sense is sound, I must disagree with a few key points. First of all, three days is nothing like two years.

Second, while just for the sake of discussion I’ll go with the idea that the Nazguls’ army outnumbered the defenders (for future reference, a point I am not conceding) I doubt this army could have been strong enough to hold back the might of Gondor indefinitely if it were applied in that situation, certainly not for two years. Even heavily defended places will fall, even if it is costly, to sustained pressure without relief. We are back to the same problem of where was the Nazguls’ army to come from and how was it supplied.

I suspect that most of the foodstuffs required by the attackers for the siege came from Nurn or from eastern Mordor, all of which would reasonably seem to be arable to some extent.

Whether they were arable and whether they were occupied at the time are two different things. Even if they were occupied the occupation was recent and possibly had not reached the self-supporting stage. Military campaigns require large stockpiles of everything. The real problem is where those came from.

The one great advantage that the Dúnedain possessed was their communication by means of the palantíri.

An interesting factor indeed, one that leads me to the conclusions that A) the king and his council must have had some idea of what was going on and B) that they would be willing to pay a pretty heavy price to get the palantir back. I think that if they had believed that a substantial military campaign was in order they would have done it. And Gondor’s power was still sufficient to do this. Remember that the reason why the Witch-king was back in Mordor in the first place was because Gondor had reached up and kicked him out of Angmar. I find it impossible to believe that the Witch-king had an army at Minas Ithil the size of the one he had at Fornost and Gondor was able to crush the Angmarian army from afar.

I believe, given the seemingly conflicting information we possess, something unorthodox happened at Minas Ithil and I think a “haunting” is by far the most reasonable explanation which is in line with what we know. The critical factor in my view is that the Gondorians didn’t understand what was happening and hauntings are good for that sort of thing.

[CaptainofDespair]

Military campaigns require large stockpiles of everything. The real problem is where those came from.

I find it impossible to believe that the Witch-king had an army at Minas Ithil the size of the one he had at Fornost and Gondor was able to crush the Angmarian army from afar.

They (the stockpiles) could come from anywhere. Rhun seems likely, and surely the Witch-King could 'persuade' the Easterlings and Wainriders to give him what he needed in the way of supplies, as well as providing themselves as troops. I don't see it being very hard to slip supplies through the back-door of Mordor, either.

On the size of the army, I agree with you Kuruharan. But that does not mean the Nazgul-led force could not be effective. War is not fought on paper, and to think that numbers alone make the difference is a lapse in judgement. And one must also take note that Angmar's defeat was already in the past. The power of Gondor could very well have waned in that time just enough to leave the army incapable of responding properly to the situation.

And, why would the Nazgul haunt Minas Ithil? The Witch-King had been humiliated by Gondor before. It makes more sense for him to want to take revenge in a rather violent manner. And from the Witch-King's campaigns in Angmar, we see that he prefers to cause destruction and death, razing entire areas as the army passes. Haunting Ithil after he had taken it is more than reasonable, since that is adding insult to injury, to turn it into a den of evil.

[Alcuin]

Next, I would like to tackle the contention that Minas Ithil was a “walled city not a fortress.The two are not mutually exclusive. I did not say they were mutually exclusive. This was in response to an earlier post expressing the opinion “that Minas Ithil was a walled city not a fortess [sic]”.

…three days is nothing like two years.

Second, while just for the sake of discussion I’ll go with the idea that the Nazguls’ army outnumbered the defenders (for future reference, a point I am not conceding) I doubt this army could have been strong enough to hold back the might of Gondor indefinitely if it were applied in that situation, certainly not for two years. Even heavily defended places will fall, even if it is costly, to sustained pressure without relief. We are back to the same problem of where was the Nazguls’ army to come from and how was it supplied. During the first three days, Gondor should have had an easier time dislodging the Morgul invasion. The longer the Nazgûl’s invasion force was in the pass, the more difficult it would become for Gondor to force them out of position.

“Even heavily defended places will fall … to sustained pressure without relief,” you say. That is true: the Morgul forces had a continuous link to their bases of supply; but the garrison of Minas Ithil was isolated, and eventually it did fall. No reinforcements could get into Minas Ithil, nor could food or military goods; for the Morgul army, however, whatever its size, it could be reinforced at will from the Mordor end of the pass, and it could be freely resupplied and re-equipped without interference or interruption. Besides orcs, as CaptainofDespair has observed, there were also Wainriders and men of Khand and Harad that the Nazgûl could use to prevent Gondor from accessing the first few miles of the pass.

…A) the king and his council must have had some idea of what was going on and B) that they would be willing to pay a pretty heavy price to get the palantir back. I think that if they had believed that a substantial military campaign was in order they would have done it. And Gondor’s power was still sufficient to do this.No doubt they had an excellent picture of the tactical situation, and they had far superior communications, having no impediment to their lines of communication with Minas Ithil; however, they had no way to take advantage of their intelligence, unless you can demonstrate how Gondor could effect a military operation in Mordor or the eastern end of the Ithil pass without resort to the Ithil pass or the Morannon.

You say that “they would be willing to pay a pretty heavy price” to defend Minas Ithil, and I agree: but once the Morgul force was entrenched along the entire western approach to Minas Ithil, the “advantages” for Gondor would be much akin to those enjoyed during World War I by armies attacked heavily entrenched positions: very poor prospects indeed. It would seem that most of the Nazgûl were there as well, and anytime a breach began to form in the Morgul lines, I suspect one or more of them would join in the fray.

…the Witch-king was back in Mordor in the first place was because Gondor had reached up and kicked him out of Angmar.An oversimplification of the events surrounding the defeat of Angmar. The Witch-king was defeated because in his pride after having seized Fornost, slaughtered everyone in the city, and seated himself on the ancient throne of Arnor, he went out to meet his enemies without good information on the size and disposition of their force. I have posted this before in other places, but perhaps it is useful to repost it here:This is how I interpret the material concerning the end of the kingdom of Angmar in Return of the King, “Appendix A”. I prepared a sketch to more easily describe the situation I think Tolkien has laid out for us.http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/EarnurFornostBattle2.jpg Círdan, leading the combined forces of Lindon, the surviving Dúnedain of the North, and most of the expeditionary force of Gondor, approaches Fornost from the Hills of Evendim. (Big red arrow) The Witch-king, whose army has occupied Fornost, leads his forces out to confront them between Lake Nenuial and the North Downs. (Big blue arrow) The two armies engage. As Angmar’s lines begin to waver, Eärnur leading the cavalry of Gondor charges into the battle from the north. (Thin red line headed south). Angmar is defeated. The Witch-king leads a retreat in haste towards Carn-Dûm, with Eärnur and the cavalry of Gondor in hot pursuit. (Thin blue and red lines headed towards Carn-Dûm.) Before the Witch-king and his remaining forces can reach their city, a force from Rivendell led by Glorfindel cuts off their retreat. (Thin red line from Rivendell) What is left of the army of Angmar is utterly destroyed. The Witch-king alone escapes into the night.
The Witch-king had no use for an army the size of that he possessed at Angmar. It could not be inserted into the pass to any positive effect: which is exactly why even a large army from Gondor would be of less effect: only the front lines of the two armies could fight, and all the advantages would accrue to the Morgul side. The whole reason Isildur constructed Minas Ithil was to control western end of the pass, which Gondor did for 2000 years until the Nazgûl were able to cut off the citadel and invest it: all the garrisons along the border were undermanned and unprepared, as I showed in the first five citations in post #28.

I believe, given the seemingly conflicting information we possess, something unorthodox happened at Minas Ithil and I think a “haunting” is by far the most reasonable explanation which is in line with what we know. The critical factor in my view is that the Gondorians didn’t understand what was happening and hauntings are good for that sort of thing.I don’t find any conflicting information: it is extremely sparse, but I do not see any internal conflicts or counterindications. The text is quite clear that the Nazgûl led a force that descended upon Minas Ithil by surprise, invested the citadel, and took it after a two-year siege. This is repeated in more than one place in the corpus. There is no mention of anything that hints of “hauntings” – that was what took place in the Barrow-downs of Cardolan, and it is also well-attested in many places in the corpus. Had he intended the events at the two places to be similar, I cannot see why Tolkien would say in RotK, “Appendix A”, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion” thatIt was … in the reign of King Eärnil (II) … that the Witch-king escaping from the North came to Mordor, and there gathered the other Ringwraiths… 2000 … they issued from Mordor by the Pass of Cirith Ungol and laid siege to Minas Ithil. This they took in 2002, and captured the [i]palantír of the tower.That seems to me a simple and straightforward statement. To my mind, it does not constitute a “plot hole” or require any kind of supernatural events, though given that the attacking force was led by the Nazgûl, I imagine there might have been a few “supernatural events.” But this operation could have been conducted by any well-led, well-prepared, well-disciplined army under the circumstances. I agree with this remark earlier in the thread, That explains the two-year long "siege" and also how the Nine (with some help, but not necessarily a huge army) were able to take Minas Ithil.

[Kuruharan]

They (the stockpiles) could come from anywhere. Rhun seems likely, and surely the Witch-King could 'persuade' the Easterlings and Wainriders to give him what he needed in the way of supplies, as well as providing themselves as troops. I don't see it being very hard to slip supplies through the back-door of Mordor, either.

That is a long supply line if I ever saw one. Long supply lines equal inevitable problems and delays even under the best of circumstances (and I can concede that transport across Mordor certainly would not have been encumbered by things like the enemy activity and bandits that often plagued supply lines in this day and age). Still, you have things like broken transports, the need for the transporters to eat a chunk of the supplies, considering the derelict state of Mordor I would assume bad roads, all sorts of stuff. Gondor was actually in a much more favorable logistical position.

And one must also take note that Angmar's defeat was already in the past. The power of Gondor could very well have waned in that time just enough to leave the army incapable of responding properly to the situation.

I kind of doubt that. The time involved was not that long and there is no plague or famine or other massive population reducing event mentioned during that time.

It makes more sense for him to want to take revenge in a rather violent manner. And from the Witch-King's campaigns in Angmar, we see that he prefers to cause destruction and death, razing entire areas as the army passes.

I think in this case the issue is what he was capable of doing rather than what he wanted to do.

Besides orcs, as CaptainofDespair has observed, there were also Wainriders and men of Khand and Harad that the Nazgûl could use to prevent Gondor from accessing the first few miles of the pass.

Minor point: Hadn’t the Wainriders been completely broken 56 years before this though?

Anyway, on to the big stuff…

That is true: the Morgul forces had a continuous link to their bases of supply; but the garrison of Minas Ithil was isolated, and eventually it did fall. No reinforcements could get into Minas Ithil, nor could food or military goods; for the Morgul army, however, whatever its size, it could be reinforced at will from the Mordor end of the pass, and it could be freely resupplied and re-equipped without interference or interruption.

As I pointed out above, I’m not sure this is the case. Just a glance at the map indicates that Gondor was in a better logistical position because their supply lines were shorter. In a protracted campaign of attrition of the type you are proposing, I think Gondor would have had the decisive advantage, therefore, I don’t think that is what happened.

No doubt they had an excellent picture of the tactical situation, and they had far superior communications, having no impediment to their lines of communication with Minas Ithil; however, they had no way to take advantage of their intelligence, unless you can demonstrate how Gondor could effect a military operation in Mordor or the eastern end of the Ithil pass without resort to the Ithil pass or the Morannon.

You say that “they would be willing to pay a pretty heavy price” to defend Minas Ithil, and I agree: but once the Morgul force was entrenched along the entire western approach to Minas Ithil, the “advantages” for Gondor would be much akin to those enjoyed during World War I by armies attacked heavily entrenched positions: very poor prospects indeed. It would seem that most of the Nazgûl were there as well, and anytime a breach began to form in the Morgul lines, I suspect one or more of them would join in the fray.

For one thing, the advantage conferred to the defender by entrenched positions was not anything like as great in this style of warfare as they were in World War I. (Actually, given the particular style of warfare described in Middle-earth, I prefer the term “fortified” and will use that.) Assuming that the Mordorian forces had walled off the western end of the pass, even in depth, all the Gondorians would have needed to do was employ conventional siege tactics to breach each layer of fortification. While this could be costly, given the logistical advantages of Gondor I think they would have succeeded had they tried this.

It would seem that most of the Nazgûl were there as well, and anytime a breach began to form in the Morgul lines, I suspect one or more of them would join in the fray.

True, but the Witch-king’s presence didn’t turn the tide at Fornost and their power was reduced in daytime and their master’s power had not grown as great at that point as it did later.

An oversimplification of the events surrounding the defeat of Angmar. The Witch-king was defeated because in his pride after having seized Fornost

Perhaps, but the rest of your explanation, interesting as it is, is an overcomplication of the point I was trying to make. My point was that Gondor was able to fling an army sufficient to crush Angmar (no small feat) about 1000 miles away from its home base (also no small feat) and yet a mere 25 years later Gondor couldn’t muster the strength to defend one of its primary cities. I find this impossible to swallow if conventional tactics are all that is considered.

which is exactly why even a large army from Gondor would be of less effect: only the front lines of the two armies could fight, and all the advantages would accrue to the Morgul side.

It depends on what you are wanting to do. If one is just wanting to grind it out, than a meeting of the front lines is all that is required. But I don’t think a Thermopylaesque battle in the pass is what would have happened anyway (a situation where I think the Gondorians would have won in the end anyway, just like the Persians did). I think it would have been more of a siege.

I don’t find any conflicting information: it is extremely sparse, but I do not see any internal conflicts or counterindications. The text is quite clear that the Nazgûl led a force that descended upon Minas Ithil by surprise, invested the citadel, and took it after a two-year siege.

I’m afraid that the words “take by surprise” followed by “two-year siege” used regarding the same event have a rather jarring effect in my brain.

Also, see the bit about Gondor’s potency in 1975 and then their apparent utter impotence in 2000-2002. This just does not compute.

[Farael]

Well, I was going to post something rather similar to what Kuruharan has said about the supply lines... sending food and equipment over hundreds of miles of (at best) deserted, if not full of bandits, terrain is no easy task (and no, the fact that the Nazghul are "baddies" does not mean that they won't be attacked by bandits. There are quite a few instances of orcs attacking other orcs and ultimately benefitting the "Good" people, not the less the massacre of the tower of Cirith Ungol which allowed Sam and Frodo to escape).

But there is another side to this matter. Reinforcements. I believe we have all agreed that the Nazghul did not have a huge army. Furthermore, if they could not gather a huge army, how could they find reinforcements? As Kuruharan mentioned, Gondor could easily besiege the Nazghul fortifications and bide their time. Two years is a lot of time, and yet not enough time for the Nazghul to build a fortress out of thin air. Best case scenario, they'd have a wooden pallisade with a big ditch and stakes to prevent a cavalry attack. All nice and dandy, but I'm sure Gondor could get a catapult or two. Just keep on shelling them, they can't replace their losses. Furthermore, as I mentioned, their fortifications are not likely to have been made of stone... thus easily breakable by a good solid chunk of rock flung by a catapult. And don't ask me where they'd get rocks from, they are near a mountain range!!!

Furthermore, it seems we are forgetting one little thing. There are still some forces in Minas Ithil, so the Nazghul would have been fighting a battle in two fronts. At any point in time, and with the help of the Palantir which made comunications easy, the Gondor forces could attack the Nazghul on two fronts... the main force would start an attack, and at the heaviest point a smaller force from Minas Ithil could attack the enemy at their rear. Say, give the Nazghul a month to get their fortifications in place, shell them for a day or two and then attack them in two fronts. A determined attack on two fronts would dislodge any army... the catapults would negate the "fortifications" (or some of them anyway) and furthermore, they'd cause at least some losses that the Nazghul could not replace.

[Alcuin]

Just a glance at the map indicates that Gondor was in a better logistical position because their supply lines were shorter. In a protracted campaign of attrition of the type you are proposing, I think Gondor would have had the decisive advantage…However long the Morgul lines of supply, Minas Ithil had no lines of supply at all: that was its problem. The Morgul army could be resupplied and reinforced almost at leisure; but not so Minas Ithil: no loss it sustained could be replaced. I am not “proposing” that there was a “protracted campaign,” I am relying upon Tolkien’s multiple assertions that the city was besieged for a long period. The exercise is not to negate what he wrote, but to explain it, is it not?

I agree with you, Kuruharan, that the military posture of Gondor is unlikely to have deteriorated in any significant way between III 1975 when Arnor collapsed and III 2000 when the siege of Minas Ithil began. The problem was, I think, that the Dúnedain of Gondor were first unprepared for any attack at all, believing that having vanquished both the Wainriders and the Haradrim, they faced no risk of attack; and in the second place, they had no idea what tactical problems they faced in combating the Ringwraiths.

Eärnil lacked the insight and experience to deal with the Nazgûl, something the commanders of Arthedain possessed in spades; Arthedain lacked the means to defend itself from the assault of Angmar, and Gondor was slow to come to its aid, when timely assistance might have saved the struggling kingdom. In this way the words of Malbeth the Seer came true (RotK, “Appendix A”, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion”), ...a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again.I think the import is that Arvedui and his captains among the Northern Dúnedain possessed the experience, skills and insight their kinsfolk in Gondor lacked to break the siege; but they were dead or scattered.

As for some of the unique problems conflict with the Ringwraiths might entail, consider these points as a beginning:

The Ringwraiths could move invisibly through the lines to spy upon their opponents.
The Ringwraiths could move invisibly through the lines to attack or assassinate their opponents.
The Ringwraiths could terrify their opponents. Tolkien says, in fact, that this was their primary advantage, and that they had not other particular physical advantages, aside from invisibility.
The Ringwraiths possessed Morgul-knives, a weapon apparently well-known to the Northern Dúnedain, well enough that Aragorn knew about them and how to deal with them 1,000 years later. The effect of these weapons must have been frightening and demoralizing to the soldiers of Gondor.


As for what you regard as the ineffectiveness of Witch-king in the North, I recall that Angmar had besieged and taken Fornost, apparently slaughtering the inhabitants when it fell, annihilating the greater part of the Northern Dúnedain. The Elves of Lindon were present at the battle on the plain between Lake Nenuial and the North Downs, including Círdan, who is named as the commander of the combined army of the Elves and Dúnedain. Círdan also helped Arthedain repel the Angmar army in III 1409. I think Elves were less susceptible to the fear exuded by the Nazgûl as well, perhaps, as their weapons. In any case, I believe Tolkien indicates that the reason the complete victory of the allies over Angmar was because the Witch-king erred in coming out into the plain to meet their attack rather than waiting for them to approach Fornost, which he held: it seems that he might have been more successful had he waited for them there.


If one is just wanting to grind it out, than a meeting of the front lines is all that is required. But I don’t think a Thermopylaesque battle in the pass is what would have happened anyway (a situation where I think the Gondorians would have won in the end anyway, just like the Persians did). I think it would have been more of a siege.

It was a siege! My reference to Thermopylae has to do with defending a narrow pass: an advantage accrues to a smaller force in command of a pass: the front lines are compressed, and a well-trained, well-prepared, well-led group can often fend off repeated attacks from a much larger force because it is impossible for the larger force to bring its numbers to bear.

You are in error about the Persian victory at Thermopylae. Xerxes never broke the Greek blockade of the pass despite repeated frontal assaults. The Greeks were betrayed by Ephialtes of Trachis, who is remembered as one of the great traitors of history. He led the Persian infantry by a “secret” way over the mountain to attack the Greeks from behind. In the case of Minas Ithil, the “secret way” was through Torech Ungol, but that was under control of the Nazgûl who first seized the Tower of Cirith Ungol by treachery, besides any difficulties the Dúnedain would have faced from Shelob.

You are correct about the word “fortification” to describe what the Morgul army probably did to secure their positions. I think you are overlooking the outcome of any fortifications, however: they would give the Morgul army the same tactical and strategic advantages over any counterattack by Gondor that Gondor’s fortifications enjoyed against attacks by Mordor or the Haradrim or the Easterlings. It was a strategic reversal of monumental proportions and a disastrous loss for Gondor.


I’m afraid that the words “take by surprise” followed by “two-year siege” used regarding the same event have a rather jarring effect in my brain.

I don’t understand your point. The initial attack was a surprise, and a two-year siege followed. Tolkien makes it perfectly clear that Gondor abandoned or severely undermanned all its fortresses along its border with Mordor, partly out of a lack of manpower, partly no doubt because they believed there was no one in Mordor that could launch such an attack, and particularly because they had just defeated the Haradrim and, as you point out, “the Wainriders been completely broken 56 years before.”

I don’t believe Gondor was “impotent” in III 2000-2002. They were surprised, indicating that they were unprepared: they let their guard down, literally. I believe they were unable to break the siege of Minas Ithil because of topography, the same advantage that made Minas Ithil a strategically important fortress; and because they were facing the Nazgûl for the first time themselves and lacked the insight and experience to deal with them.

Tolkien’s explanation makes perfectly good sense to me.

-|-

Farael, I found your post after I finished posting.

I cannot imagine that “bandits” would interfere with the Nazgûl’s operations – not more than once, anyway: the consequences were too severe, and the folk of Mordor worshipped Sauron. Attacking a supply caravan intended for the Nazgûl should be tantamount to a religious taboo for them. Besides, it isn’t whether the Nazgûl had difficulty resupplying and reinforcing themselves, but that they could resupply and reinforce, while Minas Ithil could not. Nurn was at most ten days away, and it isn’t as if the Nazgûl launched their assault without considerable preparation.

There could never be very many troops on the front line for either side of a battle in the pass. Karen Wynn Fonstad’s map in Atlas of Middle-earth and Tolkien’s sketch in War of the Ring indicate that there was at least one severe turn in the road in the mouth of the pass, and possibly two: getting a large catapult to the front line, manning it, and preventing the Morgul force from launching an attack on it before it was ready must have presented some difficulties. Catapults in the real world were rarely dragged or wheeled into position, but generally assembled either from scratch or from pre-constructed machines disassembled and transported to where they were needed. It is not as if Eärnil’s engineers could do this without being observed, giving the Nazgûl an opportunity to respond; and since they could respond without being seen, I think that gave them a considerable advantage.

As for the force besieged in Minas Ithil, the text says that the population of the city had been devastated by plague and never recovered. We know that Gondor had already abandoned its posts along the border. I think we can safely assume that Minas Ithil had a very small garrison for its size and importance.

Any counterattacks launched from Minas Ithil, unless successful in breaking the siege, would leave the citadel in a weaker position. If the garrison were small to begin with, as it seems to have been, then launching a counterattack would be a risky proposition. They might have tried it in concert with an attack on the mouth of the pass, since they had excellent communication with the army of Gondor outside; but again, I think that Dúnedain of Gondor lacked the insight and experience to deal with the Nazgûl.

[CSteefel]

The problem was, I think, that the Dúnedain of Gondor were first unprepared for any attack at all, believing that having vanquished both the Wainriders and the Haradrim, they faced no risk of attack; and in the second place, they had no idea what tactical problems they faced in combating the Ringwraiths.

Eärnil lacked the insight and experience to deal with the Nazgûl, something the commanders of Arthedain possessed in spades;

This seems to be the key--the Dunedain of Gondor were simply not prepared for an assault of this kind by the Nazgul. A conventional assault (with Orcs, for example) would have been unlikely to have succeeded. And as Alcuin has said, the Arthedain had considerably more experience in this department, plus they had the aid of the Elves. In the end it was Glorfindel who drove off the Witch King...

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people. Couldent they just turn the city people agaisnt them selves. Then in the end wouldent the nazguls just have to walk in.

[Kuruharan]

However long the Morgul lines of supply, Minas Ithil had no lines of supply at all: that was its problem.

But not in the sense of Gondor being able to launch a relief expedition. To me that is the issue at play here; why Gondor does not appear to have sent a considerable relief expedition at least on the scale of the armada they sent to the north. I’m not the least bit surprised that Minas Ithil would fall because it was cut off from supplies. It is a truism of warfare that a besieged stronghold will ultimately fall if not relieved.

The exercise is not to negate what he wrote, but to explain it, is it not?

That is what I am trying to do.

The problem was, I think, that the Dúnedain of Gondor were first unprepared for any attack at all, believing that having vanquished both the Wainriders and the Haradrim, they faced no risk of attack; and in the second place, they had no idea what tactical problems they faced in combating the Ringwraiths.

But they had two years to learn. This is plenty of time to assemble, equip, and dispatch a significant relief effort.

Eärnil lacked the insight and experience to deal with the Nazgûl

I don’t believe this description of him lines up with his description in the book.


· The Ringwraiths could move invisibly through the lines to spy upon their opponents.
· The Ringwraiths could move invisibly through the lines to attack or assassinate their opponents.
· The Ringwraiths could terrify their opponents. Tolkien says, in fact, that this was their primary advantage, and that they had not other particular physical advantages, aside from invisibility.
· The Ringwraiths possessed Morgul-knives, a weapon apparently well-known to the Northern Dúnedain, well enough that Aragorn knew about them and how to deal with them 1,000 years later. The effect of these weapons must have been frightening and demoralizing to the soldiers of Gondor.


I doubt they could assassinate while being invisible. I think they had to have a form to be able to do things like that.

As for the terror they generated, I don’t think that at this time it would have been as great as it became later. As I said in my above post, their master was still rebuilding his power. Also, it does not seem to have done much for the Angmarian forces at Fornost.

You also seem to be conveniently forgetting that the Gondorians gained successful experience fighting against Nazgul commanded forces at Fornost. Nothing breeds confidence like success.

In any case, I believe Tolkien indicates that the reason the complete victory of the allies over Angmar was because the Witch-king erred in coming out into the plain to meet their attack rather than waiting for them to approach Fornost, which he held: it seems that he might have been more successful had he waited for them there.

True, but the terror he inspired doesn’t seem to have done him much good. For some reason he did not choose to appear until it was too late. (As an aside, I’ve never been particularly impressed with the military ability of the Witch-king, but that is a topic I’ve discussed elsewhere.)

You are in error about the Persian victory at Thermopylae. Xerxes never broke the Greek blockade of the pass despite repeated frontal assaults. The Greeks were betrayed by Ephialtes of Trachis, who is remembered as one of the great traitors of history.

*groan* Oh please! A win, is a win. It doesn’t matter how it comes.

a well-trained, well-prepared, well-led group can often fend off repeated attacks from a much larger force because it is impossible for the larger force to bring its numbers to bear.

Have any Mordorian forces ever impressed you as being well-trained, well-equipped, and well-led? They are the ones who rely on numbers. It could possibly be argued that such tight fighting in the pass would work to Gondor’s advantage because they would have the better soldiers.

I think you are overlooking the outcome of any fortifications

You mean their aggravating propensity to fall to sustained pressure if not relieved? No, I have that outcome firmly in mind, along with the nagging issue of where did the volume of supplies for the allegedly substantial Mordorian forces come from.

I don’t understand your point. The initial attack was a surprise, and a two-year siege followed.

I don’t see how it could be clearer. If the initial attack was a surprise, the fact that there was a two year siege indicated that the initial attack was a failure. The two year siege would give Gondor ample time to assemble a relieving force if that was their inclination and I believe it was in their power and they would have done so if it was a conventional military challenge.

Tolkien’s explanation makes perfectly good sense to me.

Tolkien gave no real explanation, hence the lively discussion.

I’ve also had another thought. Earlier CaptainofDespair mentioned that the Witch-king would be in the mood for a violent and quick victory. His later behavior at Minas Tirith gives some indication of what he liked to do in war. Yet this is exactly the sort of thing that did not happen. It was a loooong drawn out process.

I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people.

I don’t recall reading that before. Maybe I missed something.

[Farael]

About the "invisible" Nazghul attacking and killing their foes... there was one little detail. While the Nazghul might be invisible, their swords are very much real. A walking sword is likely to be seen. Sure, they COULD carry along just a smaller weapon and kill one or two people... but how long until they are cornered and attacked (even if you can't see them, if enough people gather around a spot and hack away they are bound to hit some mark)

And it seems we forget that the Nazghul were very much "killable" (meaning, they can be killed). The seer said that the Witch King would not be killed by a man (but he was killed by a Woman and with a Hobbit drawing an "assist") but the other eight might have been killed. I'm not sure they'd dare to attack an army by themselves. Sure, they might kill ten people each... but eventually they will be found, cornered and ultimately killed.

With regards to the catapults, keep in mind that the Gondorian army could also fortify their positions... Dig a trench, put up a palisade... and THEN assemble the catapults. Even if the Nazghul have catapults themselves, they can get out of catapult range and then engineer stronger catapults. They have two years to do so. On the other hand, we have all agreed (I believe) that the Nazghul had limited resources, so how likely are they to be able to build new catapults and the like? or for that matter, how likely were they to have catapults at all? I think we are all discussing a siege that the Nazghul did not mean to break by force... So why bring along complicated machinery if you are going to sit and wait them out anyway?

Furthermore, about the bandits in Mordor not daring to disturb the plans of the Nazghul... I think it is a clear theme in Tolkien's work that the efforts of the bad guys were never concentrated, unless clear orders came from a higher-authority. And even then, there is a lot of dissension and discontent among the ranks. At this point in time, the only authority high enough to command ALL bandits would have been Sauron himself, who we all know was not back in Mordor and commanding the peoples there. Therefore it is possible (if not likely) that the supply caravans would have been waylaid by bandits that fought for no other than themselves, as we see they often do.

Finally, while Minas Ithil could not re-supply until the siege was lifted, the forces from Gondor COULD and MUCH more easily than the forces from Mordor (if they could re-supply at all, which I'm not conceding since I still think they couldn't). In my opinion, if Gondor had had a mind, they would have lifted the siege for they had the numbers, better supply routes, better fighting skills and they had some experience, for even in these times the peoples of Gondor were likely to live longer than 30 years, were they not? The defeat of Angmar, with a fraction of Gondor's forces, had not happened THAT long ago at all. Therefore the question is "why didn't they do it?" rather than "why couldn't they do it?".

So I still stand by my theory, even though your arguments are perhaps better expressed than mine. I blame it on English being a Second Language, or my science background rather than Literature :p

If Minas Ithil was besieged, without a large force (for we all agree that there was no large force in Mordor available at this time) and yet Gondor did not lift the siege it is because it was in some way "unconventional". To me, it'd be better explained by a haunting and guerrilla-type warfare (For example, like Faramir did before the War of the Ring) to discourage the garrison and small population at Minas Ithil than by a conventional "YOU (supplies and reinforcements) SHALL NOT PASS" siege.

[Břicho]

In the Two Towers, doesn't Faramir mention something about treachery having been Gondor's greatest foe in the long wars with the Enemy?

I think treachery could have very well helped yield up the Tower to the Nazgul--and all the more demoralizing if so.

[CaptainofDespair]

I’ve also had another thought. Earlier CaptainofDespair mentioned that the Witch-king would be in the mood for a violent and quick victory. His later behavior at Minas Tirith gives some indication of what he liked to do in war. Yet this is exactly the sort of thing that did not happen. It was a loooong drawn out process.

But we must remember, at Minas Tirith the Wiki had essentially all of Sauron's power at his finger-tips. Since Sauron is still rebuilding out of Dol-Guldur (if my memory is correct), it makes sense that the Lord of the Nine would not have such powerful resources at his command. While he would love to just break the gate and kill everything inside as he had done at Fornost, he did not have the siege machinery capable of crushing such fortifications quickly, hence the siege.

I would also like to bring up a semi-new point against the idea of a haunting/guerilla campaign: that guerilla warfare does not win wars, or even sieges, by itself. We see this throughout history, from Napoleon in Iberia to Vietnam. Guerilla forces are guerillas because they do not have resources or manpower to deal with a larger threat. While they may control the countryside (as with Vietnam) through terror, it cannot be used to take cities (there are exceptions I suppose, but even then the besiegers are aided by more conventional means).

With Vietnam, Saigon did not fall until the US left, which allowed the conventional North Vietnamese army to march in unopposed. With Napoleon, his forces held numerous cities, while the Spanish and British pestered the French in the countryside, moving from hot spot to hot spot. Eventually, more conventional British and Spanish troops were deployed to reconquer Iberia. While the guerillas played a major role, they cannot lay siege without conventional assistance.

If the Nazgul and a small force were using guerilla warfare, at some point a larger conventional army would have to be used to actually take Minas Ithil.

And while I do not outright dismiss the potential for guerilla tactics to be used in some way in conjunction with conventional means, I do not think using it as the reasoning for Tolkien's use of 'siege' is correct.

When do we actually see the forces of the Enemy using such tactics in instances of warfare that are more than just skirmishing? And what types usually do this? The Haradrim would seem to be most in-line with this tactic, while Easterlings and Orcs seem to be more of the backbone infantry types of a traditional army. I cannot see the Nazgul being able to deploy these troops, especially in a desolate land such as Mordor, in such a fashion. It seems to go against the very way the Enemy fights in every other major confrontation.

[Kuruharan]

While the Nazghul might be invisible, their swords are very much real.

Hmmm…for some reason I seem to have some vague recollection of some reference that Nazgul had to have a visible form to affect the visible world i.e. they had to have a visible form to hold a sword. I might be mistaken in this recollection.

In the Two Towers, doesn't Faramir mention something about treachery having been Gondor's greatest foe in the long wars with the Enemy?

Hmmm…there definitely might be something to this, although we still have the two year siege to ponder.

Since Sauron is still rebuilding out of Dol-Guldur (if my memory is correct), it makes sense that the Lord of the Nine would not have such powerful resources at his command.

Which is exactly the reason why he couldn’t conduct a two-year long formal siege in the conventional sense.

I would also like to bring up a semi-new point against the idea of a haunting/guerilla campaign: that guerilla warfare does not win wars, or even sieges, by itself.

A good point. However, my theory always encapsulated a final attack by Mordorian forces that were significant enough to quickly overrun the weak garrison already crippled by two years of Nazgul inspired malaise and hit-and-run attacks by small forces. I find Břicho’s suggestion of treachery to be particularly appealing as a potential end game here.

When do we actually see the forces of the Enemy using such tactics in instances of warfare that are more than just skirmishing? And what types usually do this? The Haradrim would seem to be most in-line with this tactic, while Easterlings and Orcs seem to be more of the backbone infantry types of a traditional army. I cannot see the Nazgul being able to deploy these troops, especially in a desolate land such as Mordor, in such a fashion. It seems to go against the very way the Enemy fights in every other major confrontation.

I’m afraid I disagree with you on this, particularly on the use of orcs. They are in many places portrayed as raiders and I believe that this was the area of warfare in which orcs excelled. They are not such great stand-and-fight soldiers, by and large.

[CaptainofDespair]

I’m afraid I disagree with you on this, particularly on the use of orcs. They are in many places portrayed as raiders and I believe that this was the area of warfare in which orcs excelled. They are not such great stand-and-fight soldiers, by and large.

I'm not quite saying they couldn't raid, and nor am I really saying that standard infantry types don't engage in raiding. However, orcs do not seem to be very good at guerilla warfare. Guerilla warfare and raiding, while not mutually exclusive, are different in certain respects.

Raiding is very much a piece of guerilla warfare, but it is not the entire puzzle. This sort of activity can be engaged in by traditional armies, and actually is quite often. It serves as a method of procurring provisions and loot when both are low in supply. I agree orcs could excel at this particular piece of the puzzle. And while they are able to terrorize, they are not so good at carrying at the other aspects of a guerilla war.

Guerilla fighters are not entirely self-sufficient. They often resort to using a sympathetic populace to feed them when they are on the move. Orcs, in contrast to this, are brutal, and in-fight amongst each other even when united by a power like Sauron. This greatly reduces their effectiveness in garnering supplies from a partly willing populace. And with Mordor mostly desolate, I see it being very difficult for them to win over Easterlings or Haradrim. That sort of thing is left to the Nazgul.

The Nazgul, too, I do not see being very good at guerilla warfare. It is rather difficult for them, it would seem, to engage in it effectively with their...unique...physical properties. And this manner of warfare goes against the very tactics we see the Witch-King using time and again.

Based on the types of forces he might have at his disposal, and the way the Witch-King himself is portrayed, I find the proposition of a "Haunting" to be highly improbable. Maybe the action was part of a lesser form of intimidation, but his tactical mind does not seem to be set for a guerilla-type war. The most probable explanation of Tolkien's writings, to me, then seems to be what he wrote, that it was certainly a siege in the traditional use of the word.

[Farael]

I honestly do not see where you find that the Nazghul would not have been inclined towards using subtler tactics. I think that the Witch King was a very competent military leader and thus he would have used the best tactic according to the situation. If he did not have enough forces and supplies for a conventional siege, I'm sure he would have opted for something else.

If you are thinking about either the fall of Arnor or the Siege of Minas Tirith later on (which I'm sure we all agree WAS a conventional siege, until broken) in both cases the WK had superiority in numbers and he was fighting a disheartened, weakened foe. While the garrison in Minas Ithil was certainly weak and disheartened, Minas Tirith and Osgilliath were close enough that he knew he would have had to deal with them. Therefore, it's completely plausible that he chose an alternative method.

Furthermore, with regards to your comments on supplies for guerrilla warfare, they did not need to win the love of the Haradim or other evil men as long as they could scare them into doing what they wanted. And I'm sure both orc and Nazghul can be rather scary.

[CaptainofDespair]

Furthermore, with regards to your comments on supplies for guerrilla warfare, they did not need to win the love of the Haradim or other evil men as long as they could scare them into doing what they wanted. And I'm sure both orc and Nazghul can be rather scary.

Unless I am mistaken, I thought there was an entry in regards to the orcs and Easterlings, and their hatred of one another.

As another thought on orcs, are they ever really effective when they don't have great numbers over their foes? In most cases, no. They are mainly a mass attack group, whether in raiding or standard combat. Their effectiveness in combat seems to be diminished when in smaller numbers.

And about Wiki's 'plausible' alternative: Cite sources of where the Witch-King, as a military commander, chooses subtler methods over his favored option of traditional combat. In most, if not all, of the Witch-King's mentioned confrontations that are military in manner, he favors overt over subtle action.

[Farael]

And about Wiki's 'plausible' alternative: Cite sources of where the Witch-King, as a military commander, chooses subtler methods over his favored option of traditional combat. In most, if not all, of the Witch-King's mentioned confrontations that are military in manner, he favors overt over subtle action.
As well, in all situations but this one, as far as I know, he has superiority in numbers, has he not? Cite sources of where the WK, as a military commander, chooses overt action over subtler methods when he does not have superiority in numbers (and when he is choosing the way of engagement... when Angmar is destroyed he was overpowered but he was put in a defensive position, reacting to the forces of Gondor and not choosing how and when to attack).

Also, Břicho is dead on with his mentioning of treachery... I'd say that that is a clear indication that at least at some point in time, subtler tactics were used.

[CaptainofDespair]

As well, in all situations but this one, as far as I know, he has superiority in numbers, has he not? Cite sources of where the WK, as a military commander, chooses overt action over subtler methods when he does not have superiority in numbers (and when he is choosing the way of engagement... when Angmar is destroyed he was overpowered but he was put in a defensive position, reacting to the forces of Gondor and not choosing how and when to attack).

Also, Břicho is dead on with his mentioning of treachery... I'd say that that is a clear indication that at least at some point in time, subtler tactics were used.

Treachery does not have to come in accord with the Enemy's plans. Such things can happen rather randomly, as an act of good fortune for the besiegers...by, in WW terms, a Cobbler type person. Thus, is not a clear indication of any subtle tactics being exercised.

As for your rebuttal for sources: We do not know how many troops the Witch-King had under his command. It is only assumption one way or the other. Thus, he could very well have had an advantage in numbers. The beset could have just made things difficult. These were different Men than what he would face at Minas Tirith.

[Wayland]

I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people. Couldent they just turn the city people agaisnt them selves. Then in the end wouldent the nazguls just have to walk in.
Good point. Whatever mechanics were employed outside, an equally important process of demoralisation, corruption and treachery was doubtlessly occurring within. We need only to look at Sauruman, Denethor and Theoden to see how good men, in Tolkein’s world, are almost imperceptibly brought down.
No doubt the end was ushered in by some small gate opened by the hands of a traitor in the dead of night, some poor orders from the captains and downright self-serving foolery or cowardice by others.
Would it not be in character to speculate that the place was as much ‘lost’ by those entrusted with its defence as it was ‘taken’ by those who wanted it?

[Kuruharan]

Guerilla fighters are not entirely self-sufficient. They often resort to using a sympathetic populace to feed them when they are on the move.

You are not taking the circumstances of the situation into account.

There was no "sympathetic" population for the orcs to impress and gain supplies from. There were targets to be scared and killed. Orcs were good at scaring and killing.

Raiding is very much a piece of guerilla warfare, but it is not the entire puzzle. This sort of activity can be engaged in by traditional armies, and actually is quite often.

Which is what I was talking about. Besides, are not orcs frequently spoken of ambushing people?

The Nazgul, too, I do not see being very good at guerilla warfare. It is rather difficult for them, it would seem, to engage in it effectively with their...unique...physical properties.

Would you care to explain why?

I think they would be uniquely suited to it because creating terror was what they did best.

Unless I am mistaken, I thought there was an entry in regards to the orcs and Easterlings, and their hatred of one another.

I can't remember reading anything like that. While I doubt that the orcs and Easterlings liked each other very much, they would definitely been on the same side.

Cite sources of where the Witch-King, as a military commander, chooses subtler methods over his favored option of traditional combat.

He tricked Earnur.

Treachery does not have to come in accord with the Enemy's plans. Such things can happen rather randomly, as an act of good fortune for the besiegers...by, in WW terms, a Cobbler type person. Thus, is not a clear indication of any subtle tactics being exercised.

True, but the other side of that coin is at least as likely. I don't think there is any fodder for either side to gain from this issue.

Thus, he could very well have had an advantage in numbers.

And where did these troops come from and how were they supported? Up to this point you've failed to give an adequate explanation for this.

[CaptainofDespair]

He tricked Earnur.

I would consider that more like taunting him into performing a foolish action. He never truly tricked him. Earnur was stupid enough to think he might actually get a fair fight.

And where did these troops come from and how were they supported? Up to this point you've failed to give an adequate explanation for this.

And I disagree with you there. I think I have given adequate explanation, and that you are just requiring an immense degree of evidence for support. And I do not see you requiring the same of your own side of the argument.

In any case...Parts of Mordor, Rhun, and Harad could provide both troops and supplies. Anywhere that Sauron might have held some sway. They can be supported entirely by traditional means via supply lines reaching into Rhun and Harad, and maybe Nurn. And if Mordor is so "desolate", there are not many bandits to worry about in that last leg of the journey. The only part that must be secured is the Rhun area, and by simply sending shipments with reinforcement contingents or using outposts as waypoints they could easily transport the needed supplies to the Ithil besiegers.

There was no "sympathetic" population for the orcs to impress and gain supplies from. There were targets to be scared and killed. Orcs were good at scaring and killing.

Exactly my point. Which is why I think guerilla warfare is not a viable option. That type of warfare has many different factors that extend beyond simply 'scaring' and 'killing'. Orcs are best suited for the traditional army type, which more than allows for the raiding that they would enjoy.

I can't remember reading anything like that. While I doubt that the orcs and Easterlings liked each other very much, they would definitely been on the same side.

We have seen that orcs go after one another when from different 'tribes', and even amongst singular tribes they in-fight. And that comes during times of war, as well. Thus it is entirely plausible that they would attack Easterlings, and vice versa, if tempers boil over. And they certainly would in such a situation of duress.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW
I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people. Couldent they just turn the city people agaisnt them selves. Then in the end wouldent the nazguls just have to walk in.

Good point. Whatever mechanics were employed outside, an equally important process of demoralisation, corruption and treachery was doubtlessly occurring within. We need only to look at Sauruman, Denethor and Theoden to see how good men, in Tolkein’s world, are almost imperceptibly brought down.
No doubt the end was ushered in by some small gate opened by the hands of a traitor in the dead of night, some poor orders from the captains and downright self-serving foolery or cowardice by others.
Would it not be in character to speculate that the place was as much ‘lost’ by those entrusted with its defence as it was ‘taken’ by those who wanted it?

What I like about this suggestion is that it gives a
reasonable explanation of how the palantir was captured. If
the fortress was captured by stealth then the palantir would have been
valuable as a communication device with Minas Tirith for the
Gondorians who, presumably, did not think that their fortress
was in iminent danger of being lost.

[Kuruharan]

I would consider that more like taunting him into performing a foolish action. He never truly tricked him. Earnur was stupid enough to think he might actually get a fair fight.

The principle I was articulating is the same.

“Insult the enemy with subtlety where and when you can insult him; degrade him where you can degrade. Offer fool’s bait and entice him to display his stupidity.”
The Art of War, Chapter I

And I do not see you requiring the same of your own side of the argument.

Specify on what is unclear and I will expound at length, believe me.

And if Mordor is so "desolate", there are not many bandits to worry about in that last leg of the journey.

I agree with you there. I don’t think bandits would have been a big problem in Mordor.

The only part that must be secured is the Rhun area, and by simply sending shipments with reinforcement contingents or using outposts as waypoints they could easily transport the needed supplies to the Ithil besiegers.

Again, this is a loooong supply line compared to the one the Gondorians had to use.

Exactly my point. Which is why I think guerilla warfare is not a viable option. That type of warfare has many different factors that extend beyond simply 'scaring' and 'killing'. Orcs are best suited for the traditional army type, which more than allows for the raiding that they would enjoy.

I believe you are attempting to create a straw man here.

We have seen that orcs go after one another when from different 'tribes', and even amongst singular tribes they in-fight. And that comes during times of war, as well. Thus it is entirely plausible that they would attack Easterlings, and vice versa, if tempers boil over. And they certainly would in such a situation of duress.

You do realize that by saying this you are making an even stronger case for the side of the argument that says that the Gondorians could have overrun the pass in a straight military encounter (particularly that bit about “under duress.”)

[CaptainofDespair]

Again, this is a loooong supply line compared to the one the Gondorians had to use.

But if the supply line goes unhindered for the most part, it is no problem to constantly ship things along it. Napoleon mananged to have couriers, at various points, reporting daily from France when he was moving into and through Russia. Although his situation deteriorated rapidly as it progressed, the Nazgul would not be faced with the Russians...or their winter. And their distance to send supplies along is not so great as that.

Thus, if the supplies are readily available and in fairly constant transport for the most part, the distance, so long as it goes unimpeded, is not much of a problem. I would think the Gondorians might have more difficulties having to haul things over the Anduin, while worrying about potential raids on the shipments from orcs and other baddies.

You do realize that by saying this you are making an even stronger case for the side of the argument that says that the Gondorians could have overrun the pass in a straight military encounter (particularly that bit about “under duress.”)

History is full of interesting moments like that, where the one side does not act (or in some cases does act) at a time when they could easily achieve victory. This, it seems, often leads to defeat for those who do not act (Archduke Karl waiting against an isolated Napoleon outside Vienna, allowing reinforcements to arrive).

Dissension would not be tolerated by the Nazgul, who would put things into line. But since the Nazgul must worry of their personal safety they would not go off on guerilla affairs for fear of being surrounded and outnumbered. Yet, at the same time, keeping the troops in line requires their presence. The only way to keep the various groups in line is to force them to by being constantly around, and that requires mass supervision.

While they could have the orcs and Easterlings act only amongst their own, they must also worry of another factor. Guerilla attacks on cities/outposts/forts require timed assaults by various units working in consort. Distraction and division are some of the best tactics for these fighters. But if the groups involved truly do not like each other, and would rather see the other dead, they may very well not attack at the designated point. The Nazgul would need to prevent this, but there are only nine of them, and thus they cannot be everywhere. Factor in that the Witch-King seemingly doesn't go into the field himself until he feels he has mostly won the day, and you have eight available for baby-sitting duty.

Thus, based on the potential fractured relations of the groups involved, it would be easiest, methinks, to keep them together in large contingents that are more easily managed by the few Nazgul.

I feel as if I am becoming incoherent...possibly from ranting. I shall end this post here before something goes amiss in my brain. :)

[Kuruharan]

But if the supply line goes unhindered for the most part, it is no problem to constantly ship things along it.

Unhindered by sentient beings does not mean totally unhindered. Broken transports, weather delays, the necessity of feeding the ones doing the transporting, rock slides, mud volcanoes...these problems become more inevitable and substantial with every mile you have to cross.

Let's take the time to look carefully at the map.

In an act of generosity on my part, we'll say that there are sufficient settlements just to the east of the Sea of Rhun, that is a distance of at least 600 miles.

The distance from Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil is about 45 miles.

Are you starting to see where we are coming from here?

I would think the Gondorians might have more difficulties having to haul things over the Anduin, while worrying about potential raids on the shipments from orcs and other baddies.

Nonsense. It was their river and they were a river people.

As for orcs and other baddies, there were no orcs or other baddies in that particular area at the time. That is part of why we are finding it so hard to accept that the Witch-king just created an army out of nothing and then laid siege for two years unopposed.

[CaptainofDespair]

Are you starting to see where we are coming from here?

No. You offered very little support for your own argument. I do not think that you can support the idea of a 'Haunting' without going into the unreasonable.



Nonsense. It was their river and they were a river people.

As for orcs and other baddies, there were no orcs or other baddies in that particular area at the time. That is part of why we are finding it so hard to accept that the Witch-king just created an army out of nothing and then laid siege for two years unopposed.

Just because they are a river people does not mean there are inherent difficulties in hauling supplies over water. The relatively dry lands of Rhun are more easily crossed in general.

I will not say that weather and terrain problems cannot cause problems, but I find it highly unlikely that they could not be fixed. And especially by a people like the Easterlings, who would most likely be able to cope with such set-backs. Rhun is vast, as is Mordor. It would not be hard to..."go around"...the obstacles.

As for there being no orcs or other baddies:

I'm not saying they were naturally there. Once the siege starts, the Witch-King could easily dispatch units to the periphery of his theater of war to way-lay the Gondorians who would be attempting to reach Ithil. And if the Haradrim are part of this, all the easier to acquire good troops for this sort of action, as well as any supplies they bring to the table.

And really, if you think that I'm saying that the Wiki created an army out of nothing and laid siege unopposed, you have not been reading what I'm posting. If that is the case, then it may be useless to debate this further.

I have never said that the Wiki created an army out of nothing, nor that he went unopposed. Easterlings, Haradrim, orcs...they do have other homes than just Mordor. It's not hard to see the Witch-King or Khamul conscripting these groups into combat. What I find hard to believe is that anyone would think that the Witch-King went into this without planning this out ahead of time.

The Witch-King certainly would not have gone unopposed at Ithil. The Gondorians would send troops. But, without any proper intelligence coming out of the city, it would be very difficult to gauge the strength of the enemy force. Thus, at least for the first few months, the Gondorians may not have had the intelligence they needed to field a force capable of defeating the Witch-King. Another factor is that the King and his commanders may have felt Ithil might not be the full attack. Being the defender, they could not afford to make a mistake that could not only lose Ithil, but other important fortresses. While such a situation may not have happened, they would have to plan for it. Thus, they could not send the fullness of their might against the Wiki. Just one of many potential factors that may have hindered Gondor's response to the Ithil situation.

Now, if you continue to misinterpret my posts, then you may consider yourself alone in continuing this discussion.

[Kuruharan]

No. You offered very little support for your own argument.

I'm terribly sorry, but I don't understand what else there is to say in support of the argument about the supply lines. I find that, according to your theory, the Witch-king's were impossibly long. Compared to this the Gondorian were very short. These considerations weigh heavily against the idea that this encounter was a conventional siege.

Just because they are a river people does not mean there are inherent difficulties in hauling supplies over water.

One other point you might want to consider is that the river was still bridged at this point.

The relatively dry lands of Rhun are more easily crossed in general.

For every mile an army’s supplies must cross the “teeth to tail” ratio becomes ever more heavily weighted to tail. I think that even the process of moving the supplies across to Minas Ithil from Rhun would have been prohibitive in terms of manpower, especially if you are envisioning the supplies arriving on a frequent basis.

I will not say that weather and terrain problems cannot cause problems, but I find it highly unlikely that they could not be fixed. And especially by a people like the Easterlings, who would most likely be able to cope with such set-backs.

Yes, the Easterlings being the great pioneers in weather-control and terraforming technologies.

Rhun is vast, as is Mordor. It would not be hard to..."go around"...the obstacles.

Adding to the amount of time it would take the supplies to get where they are going.

I'm not saying they were naturally there. Once the siege starts, the Witch-King could easily dispatch units to the periphery of his theater of war to way-lay the Gondorians who would be attempting to reach Ithil. And if the Haradrim are part of this, all the easier to acquire good troops for this sort of action, as well as any supplies they bring to the table.

And for them to be able to do that against a major relief force (which I think it highly likely the Gondorians would have dispatched had they understood the situation as conforming to conventional norms) there would have to have been a major battle that we know nothing about.

I have never said that the Wiki created an army out of nothing, nor that he went unopposed. Easterlings, Haradrim, orcs...they do have other homes than just Mordor. It's not hard to see the Witch-King or Khamul conscripting these groups into combat. What I find hard to believe is that anyone would think that the Witch-King went into this without planning this out ahead of time.

I’m not saying that he could not have done this. I am saying that it does not fit the situation.

But, without any proper intelligence coming out of the city, it would be very difficult to gauge the strength of the enemy force.

Just as an aside, and this is not particularly directed at you, but isn’t it amazing how a palantir can at one moment be the most useful thing in the world and in the next moment serve no useful function whatsoever. Odd that…

Anyway…

Being the defender, they could not afford to make a mistake that could not only lose Ithil, but other important fortresses. While such a situation may not have happened, they would have to plan for it. Thus, they could not send the fullness of their might against the Wiki. Just one of many potential factors that may have hindered Gondor's response to the Ithil situation.

They could have thought this in the early months at most. Remember this siege lasted two years.

[CaptainofDespair]

I do not refer to supply lines, but of your general argument in support of a 'Haunting'.

One other point you might want to consider is that the river was still bridged at this point.

Even bridges become difficult to cross if a large number of men, war horses, supply train horses and wagons, and any siege materials they might try to take along are being sent across. Backups are a definite problem.

For every mile an army’s supplies must cross the “teeth to tail” ratio becomes ever more heavily weighted to tail. I think that even the process of moving the supplies across to Minas Ithil from Rhun would have been prohibitive in terms of manpower, especially if you are envisioning the supplies arriving on a frequent basis.

And since when does Rhun not have the manpower? Numerous military commanders throughout history have been able to march their troops to war, and maintain immense supply lines. It is not as impossible as you seem intent on making it.

Yes, the Easterlings being the great pioneers in weather-control and terraforming technologies.

It's not exactly very difficult to create patch-work fixes for a supply line. And it's not very hard to go around other obstacles.

Adding to the amount of time it would take the supplies to get where they are going.

Time is something the Wiki had, and the Gondorians did not.

And for them to be able to do that against a major relief force (which I think it highly likely the Gondorians would have dispatched had they understood the situation as conforming to conventional norms) there would have to have been a major battle that we know nothing about.

And the Gondorians just cannot be lacking in knowledge of the situation? They were not exactly expecting something out of the desolation. You seem to expect a lot of things out of Gondor. They cannot have an off moment? Perhaps you think too highly of their abilities...

I’m not saying that he could not have done this. I am saying that it does not fit the situation.

A rather weak rebuttal. Why don't you try expanding your argument? How does it not fit the situation? The Wiki was defeated in Angmar years before his return to Mordor. He could very easily spend that time in the East, in communication with the other Nazgul and the Easterlings/Haradrim/Orcs, planning an assault.

Just as an aside, and this is not particularly directed at you, but isn’t it amazing how a palantir can at one moment be the most useful thing in the world and in the next moment serve no useful function whatsoever. Odd that…

Perhaps the tower's commander was not authorized to use the palantir? Such an awesome tool could not be left idly in the hands of a lesser...

They could have thought this in the early months at most. Remember this siege lasted two years.

And this threat could not linger at all times? It would seem that if Gondor got bogged down at Ithil, it would become even more likely that the Wiki might to go around Ithil and attack Osgiliath, if only to draw off the Gondorians at Ithil.

And a side thought to this: Maybe the siege did not go unbroken, but was rather an off and on again affair based on the ability of the Witch-King to maintain enough supplies, and to prevent a large relief force from attacking.

[Kuruharan]

Numerous military commanders throughout history have been able to march their troops to war, and maintain immense supply lines.

A supply line of 600 miles through desolate landscape to an equally desolate battlefield…hmmm…can’t think of any example like that off the top of my head during a comparable period of our history.

Time is something the Wiki had, and the Gondorians did not.

They had two years. That is enough time to do plenty of things.

And the Gondorians just cannot be lacking in knowledge of the situation? They were not exactly expecting something out of the desolation. You seem to expect a lot of things out of Gondor. They cannot have an off moment?

They can have an off moment. Two years is a bit too much to swallow. King Earnil was no idiot.

Perhaps you think too highly of their abilities...

Perhaps you think too little of them…

Why don't you try expanding your argument?

Fair enough. I’ll give you a step-by-step account of what I think is a reasonable chronology of how things went down.

I think that when the Nazgûl launched their assault against Minas Morgul they did so by moving into the area unclad for the express purpose of causing terror and driving people away.

Note what Tolkien said…

[T]heir chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible; and it was also greater when they were gathered together.
-The Hunt for the Ring text B

-and-

They passed slowly and in stealth, through Anórien, and over the Entwade, and so into the Wold, and rumor of darkness and a dread of men knew not what went before them.
-The Hunt for the Ring text A

-and-

They rode through Rohan in haste, and the terror of their passing was so great that many folk fled from the land, and went wildly away north and west
-The Hunt for the Ring text A

Is it really so very hard to believe that the prolonged presence of the Nazgûl could cause the inhabitants of Minas Ithil to start going out of their minds and fleeing in droves? The king wouldn’t know what to do because the city was not under attack, its people were just collectively going insane. After a fairly short time of this exposure, I think the more faint-hearted residents would start heading west. Given more time and the stout-hearted would start to have the urge as well. Eventually, I think that the only people in Minas Morgul would be the garrison soldiers. They too would have experienced their share of desertions, but we’ll give them some credit for bravery or a devotion to duty that was greater than their fear. The king still wouldn’t understand what was happening because nothing intelligible was happening. Undoubtedly he would send reinforcements, but they would suffer just like the rest of the troops. After two years of this process, I imagine that the garrison would be in utter shambles and reduced in strength. The Nazgûl would then summon up a strike force sufficient to storm the (probably ill-manned) walls one night, or they would induce some terror-stricken individual to open the gates for them…and PRESTO!! City fallen.

I also think that this manner of conquest could go a long way toward explaining the unique properties of Minas Morgul. The rest of Mordor was not like that (although we admittedly don’t know what Barad-dûr was like, but Shagrat and Gorbag talk about serving in the city as if it is a unique experience). I think this haunting manner of conquest could explain a lot about why the city turned out the way it did.

Perhaps the tower's commander was not authorized to use the palantir? Such an awesome tool could not be left idly in the hands of a lesser

Even if the city were under heavy siege and in danger of falling? I doubt that.

It would seem that if Gondor got bogged down at Ithil, it would become even more likely that the Wiki might to go around Ithil and attack Osgiliath, if only to draw off the Gondorians at Ithil.

How? His passage was blocked.

[CaptainofDespair]

A supply line of 600 miles through desolate landscape to an equally desolate battlefield…hmmm…can’t think of any example like that off the top of my head during a comparable period of our history.

I can think of several examples of long supply lines being maintained. The degree of success may vary in the individual cases, though. Napoleon maintained long supply lines (though at the very end of what was a several thousand mile long line) in both Egypt and in Russia. While he ended up losing both, that was more to his own faults and declining mindset than to the fault of his supply line. He could have realistically held both, but he made poor choices that ended up cutting them up. The Crusaders, a comparable period of time, managed to do much with a combination of stretched supply lines and 'living off the land' tactics.

While Mordor and Gondor were certainly no Levant, Ithilien could have been foraged in for some supplies, especially early in the campaign.And while Rhun and Mordor were desolate, Napoleon had managed to ship supplies (but his mistakes ruined any good that could have happened with the logistics) in both the cases of Egypt and Russia. The Witch-King had a smaller line of supply, then, and could thus do it as well (and I doubt he was as foolish as Napoleon in the case of logistics).

Perhaps you think too little of them…

No, I give them credit where credit is due. But there are several decades between Angmar and Ithil, and I do not think they were quite the same force. I also think that you might be placing on them an aura of greatness that they in truth may not have had.

Is it really so very hard to believe that the prolonged presence of the Nazgûl could cause the inhabitants of Minas Ithil to start going out of their minds and fleeing in droves? The king wouldn’t know what to do because the city was not under attack, its people were just collectively going insane. After a fairly short time of this exposure, I think the more faint-hearted residents would start heading west. Given more time and the stout-hearted would start to have the urge as well. Eventually, I think that the only people in Minas Morgul would be the garrison soldiers. They too would have experienced their share of desertions, but we’ll give them some credit for bravery or a devotion to duty that was greater than their fear. The king still wouldn’t understand what was happening because nothing intelligible was happening. Undoubtedly he would send reinforcements, but they would suffer just like the rest of the troops. After two years of this process, I imagine that the garrison would be in utter shambles and reduced in strength. The Nazgûl would then summon up a strike force sufficient to storm the (probably ill-manned) walls one night, or they would induce some terror-stricken individual to open the gates for them…and PRESTO!! City fallen.

How imaginative. But where is that stout heartedness you earlier attributed to the Gondorians, and not just their soldiers? Hadn't they only decades before faced the Witch-King, who not only caused fear himself but infested the Barrows of Cardolan with evil spirits from Carn-Dum? Should not Gondor have had some sense of what was happening, then?

Now, how is two years good enough for the Gondorians to get over the shock of a "siege" and the possibility of attack from elsewhere, and yet not enough for them to come to grips with something they had recently just seen in the Wights, which was a comparable situation? And add to that they know about the Nazgul, or at least the Witch-King, and the properties he brings to the table.

I also think that this manner of conquest could go a long way toward explaining the unique properties of Minas Morgul. The rest of Mordor was not like that (although we admittedly don’t know what Barad-dûr was like, but Shagrat and Gorbag talk about serving in the city as if it is a unique experience). I think this haunting manner of conquest could explain a lot about why the city turned out the way it did.

I think the properties of Morgul are not so much changed by the manner of conquest, but by the inhabiting that followed. The Nazgul, I agree, can haunt places. But I do not think their effect is enough to drive the 'stout' defenders of Gondor, especially at this time, into abandoning the city of Ithil. Abandonment, I think, does not fit with the use of "Siege", as well.

How? His passage was blocked.

There are other ways into Gondor besides the Morgul pass, ya know. ;)

[Kuruharan]

Napoleon maintained long supply lines (though at the very end of what was a several thousand mile long line) in both Egypt and in Russia. While he ended up losing both, that was more to his own faults and declining mindset than to the fault of his supply line.

Collapsing supply lines had a lot to do with why Napoleon retreated. But…Age of gunpowder. Incomparable periods of history. Irrelevant.

The Crusaders, a comparable period of time, managed to do much with a combination of stretched supply lines and 'living off the land' tactics.

Except for that irritating fact that the sea was right there and the Crusaders were supplied by sea (and wouldn’t have taken Jerusalem in the first place without it.

The Witch-king had no such option.

Try again.

Ithilien could have been foraged in for some supplies, especially early in the campaign.

Supposing the Witch-king even had access to it. Yet again your theory rests on the utter and complete inertia of Gondor, something I find difficult to believe in.

and I do not think they were quite the same force.

Even if they were not, they must have still had sufficient force to make a powerful effort at rousting the besieging forces.

Hadn't they only decades before faced the Witch-King, who not only caused fear himself but infested the Barrows of Cardolan with evil spirits from Carn-Dum? Should not Gondor have had some sense of what was happening, then?

Not necessarily. And I doubt that the Gondorians had much to do with or heard much about the Barrow-downs. They had other things on their minds when they were there.

and yet not enough for them to come to grips with something they had recently just seen in the Wights

As I said, I doubt they had any contact with them.

And add to that they know about the Nazgul, or at least the Witch-King, and the properties he brings to the table.

I’m not sure how much the Gondorians of that day and age would have known about them. Only the Wise seemed to be deeply versed in the lore and much of the past was forgotten in Gondor as the ages wore on. True, they had just defeated the Witch-king, but I’m not sure that experience would give them a realistic assessment of Nazgûl capabilities. Remember by the time we see the Gondorians talking about the Nazgûl they have had centuries of experience with them.

I certainly think that they would not have been clearly versed in what the Nazgul were capable of doing if they were unclad (which is what my theory rests upon). At some point the Gondorians may have had some inkling about the Nazgul, but what are you supposed to do against an enemy that you can’t see?

[CaptainofDespair]

Collapsing supply lines had a lot to do with why Napoleon retreated. But…Age of gunpowder. Incomparable periods of history. Irrelevant.

Quite foolish of you. Whether it is the Age of Gunpowder or not makes no difference. They still relied on horses to pull everything from cannon to supply wagons.

Except for that irritating fact that the sea was right there and the Crusaders were supplied by sea (and wouldn’t have taken Jerusalem in the first place without it.

The Witch-king had no such option.

You are not listening, again. I never said he'd use the sea. I was focused mainly on the ability to forage. Also, the Crusaders received very little in the way of supplies, especially in the First Crusade. I don't suppose you got the message that they were starving when they were sieging Antioch, as well as other fortifications. Had the Muslim armies managed to actually join together and isolate the Crusaders, what little aid the Byzantines provided wouldn't have helped either.

Try again.

Perhaps you should "try again". ;)

Supposing the Witch-king even had access to it. Yet again your theory rests on the utter and complete inertia of Gondor, something I find difficult to believe in.

No, it does not rely on the complete inertia of Gondor. You only think that.

Even if they were not, they must have still had sufficient force to make a powerful effort at rousting the besieging forces.

Perhaps, but that does not mean they, the Gondorians, could not be beaten. They are not invulnerable. You seem to be attempting to give them an aura akin to that.

Not necessarily. And I doubt that the Gondorians had much to do with or heard much about the Barrow-downs. They had other things on their minds when they were there.

Why? Because Tolkien doesn't mention it? People did not stop traveling in this time period. Word would get around, and I imagine it would not take too long.

Remember by the time we see the Gondorians talking about the Nazgûl they have had centuries of experience with them.

And yet no mention of a 'Haunting' of Ithil. How odd...

[Kuruharan]

Whether it is the Age of Gunpowder or not makes no difference. They still relied on horses to pull everything from cannon to supply wagons.

A valid point. And the fact that since Napoleon's campaign also failed has nothing to do with me conceding this point. ;)

You are not listening, again. I never said he'd use the sea. I was focused mainly on the ability to forage. Also, the Crusaders received very little in the way of supplies, especially in the First Crusade. I don't suppose you got the message that they were starving when they were sieging Antioch, as well as other fortifications. Had the Muslim armies managed to actually join together and isolate the Crusaders, what little aid the Byzantines provided wouldn't have helped either.

I’m afraid I have to strongly object to this. You are the one who is not listening and failing to comprehend the situations.

Of course, you didn’t say the Witch-king would use the sea. He had no access to the sea, it would be irrelevant to the campaign. My point was that he couldn’t where as the crusaders had access to the sea and the First Crusade would probably have failed without it (see the arrival of the Genoese and English ships on 17 June 1099). The mere presence of the sea utterly changes the strategic situation and makes the siege of Minas Ithil and the siege of Jerusalem utterly different in nature (Now there’s a statement I never thought I would have to utter).

No, it does not rely on the complete inertia of Gondor. You only think that.

As far as I can tell, you don’t think Gondor did anything except hunker down for fear that the assault on Minas Ithil was some sort of bizarre two-year diversion. Perhaps you have some different definition of the words “utter inertia” in mind.

They are not invulnerable.

No, but I think the strategic situation heavily favored them in a conventional military campaign at that time.

People did not stop traveling in this time period. Word would get around, and I imagine it would not take too long.

The Gondorians that were there were not there to sightsee. They were soldiers on campaign. And why would anybody mention the Barrow-downs. Who would have been interested in it at the time?

And yet no mention of a 'Haunting' of Ithil. How odd

By that time they understood what had happened.

[CaptainofDespair]

A valid point. And the fact that since Napoleon's campaign also failed has nothing to do with me conceding this point. ;)

That he ultimately failed in the campaign in Russia (or Egypt) is irrelevant, I think. For thousands of miles, either by land or sea, the French had managed to keep the supply lines fairly open. It was only after Napoleon made the mistake of marching towards Moscow, rather than St. Petersburg (which could ended the war if it fell, as the Czar was there), that he stretched his lines too far. Regardless of his own failure with the situation, Napoleon had managed to keep supplies coming in until his fateful choice of attack. With Egypt, he failed to take in even more logistical problems (such as checking for bread ovens) before arriving. Why, despite being across a sea which the British controlled, the French managed to get some supplies past.

If Napoleon could do that, over a much greater distance for a much larger army, it is then feasible that the Witch-King could have done so with a smaller distance, and then properly maintained it, as he had no worries of the Gondorians encircling him effectively, as the Russians had done to Napoleon after he fled Moscow on the Death March.

Of course, you didn’t say the Witch-king would use the sea. He had no access to the sea, it would be irrelevant to the campaign. My point was that he couldn’t where as the crusaders had access to the sea and the First Crusade would probably have failed without it (see the arrival of the Genoese and English ships on 17 June 1099). The mere presence of the sea utterly changes the strategic situation and makes the siege of Minas Ithil and the siege of Jerusalem utterly different in nature (Now there’s a statement I never thought I would have to utter).

I still think you are ignoring what I am looking at (which actually may not have been entirely clear, for which I apologize). I am certainly not looking at the entire Crusade period, only a select few moments, which is all I need. The arrival of the Genoese/English ships does not concern my argument, because they were not present at Antioch (which is my main example for this). When the Crusaders arrived and laid siege to city, they were already low on food. Over the course of the siege, they ran out of food, and were forced to forage what they could in the countryside or were forced to eat dogs/horses/other pack animals. Also, the situation at Antioch (location, ect) is similar enough to Ithil to provide a decent comparison.

I do not see the orcs having much of a problem with this (and it might be preferred over their usual food). I also do not see them having a problem with eating the bodies of the dead if need be. And there would be plenty, either of their own side or of the Gondorians. Of course, Ithilien would provide a small amount of forage material in the early weeks and months of the campaign.

As far as I can tell, you don’t think Gondor did anything except hunker down for fear that the assault on Minas Ithil was some sort of bizarre two-year diversion. Perhaps you have some different definition of the words “utter inertia” in mind.

Hunkering down requires something more than being inert. But that is not the point. I'm not saying the entire siege was a diversion, but with the thought in their minds, they still had to plan for it early. As the siege wears on, and it becomes clear it is not a diversion, the planning then must shift to defending the relief forces that are trying to dislodge Mordor's forces. A small force coming out of the Morannon or elsewhere might very well be able to do that under certain circumstances, or if not, at least inflict enough confusion and casualties that the Gondorians need to withdraw some troops to cover their flanks and rear. Gondor does not have the potential numbers for conscription that Mordor and Rhun do.

No, but I think the strategic situation heavily favored them in a conventional military campaign at that time.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I do not think so highly as you do of the Gondorian "advantages". Most of their victories seem to be very lucky. With the later siege of Osgiliath, it is Boromir that maintains the defense. In his absence, the city fell much more easily than it might have. At Minas Tirith, it was the arrival of Theoden and the Rohirrim. Had they not come, or had arrived but an hour later, the Witch-King certainly could have taken the city.

It seems that without a superior warrior, such as Boromir, in their midst, Gondorian soldiers of the later Third Age don't seem to fair so well. While the same certainly goes for the Mordor armies, they did have the Wiki and the other Nazgul at Ithil.

The Gondorians that were there were not there to sightsee. They were soldiers on campaign. And why would anybody mention the Barrow-downs. Who would have been interested in it at the time?

Not necessarily the Gondorian soldiers. Several decades passed between Angmar and Ithil. I think that is quite the reasonable amount of time for word to spread around.

By that time they understood what had happened.

Yet, no mention of some unconventional method of taking the city.

[Farael]

Gondor does not have the potential numbers for conscription that Mordor and Rhun do.
There, that's the whole issue. At least with me, I can't speak for Kuruharan. As far as I know (which admittedly is not everything) there was no possible conscription from Mordor. I believe I have read that Mordor was desolate until the coming of Sauron and desolate means very few, if any, inhabitants. The WK cannot conscript orcs from Mordor quite simply because there are none.

And following up on that "desolate" idea... while you chose to use Napoleon and the Crusades as an example, let me use a more modern one. World War 2, Hitler's attack on the USSR. They too had an extremely long supply line, and that was their downfall. When winter came around, it acted pretty much as a "scorched earth" policy. The Russians retreated and left behind no resources for the Nazi armies, who had to ship everything from Germany. In the end, this turned out to be impossible, even though they had trucks and trains and airplanes.

What does this have to do with all of this?

Oh, very simple... Mordor was constantly desolate, it wasn't just one season in the year, it was a barren wasteland all year round.

Not to mention that the same thing happened to Napoleon, winter came around and all of a sudden his (already stretched thin) supply line just couldn't cut it.

So you chose to look at the "possitive side" but you are ignoring the fact that these armies fell... within a year!! How could the WK hold such long supply lines to support his siege for twice as long?

And also...
Yet, no mention of some unconventional method of taking the city.
There is almost no explanation for whatever happens. We just get one brief line of text and a lot of guesswork. Yet what is a "conventional" method? In Middle Earth we have seen situations such as the "gods" coming down from "heavens" (ok, Valar coming from Valinor) to smack the hell out of Morgoth in his fortress... we have seen dragons and balrogs, we have seen little rings that keep whole realms safe and sound... We have seen weird tree-creatures tossing boulders as if they were pebbles... so howcome all of a sudden "conventional" can only be an army camped out outside a fortress' doors?

And in the light of those "unconventional" situations, what is so rare about a haunting that demoralises the troops and leads a few scared souls to open the doors to an enemy that, otherwise, would not have been enough to besiege the city without being driven off by near-by Minas Tirith/Osgiliath forces?

[CaptainofDespair]

Oh, very simple... Mordor was constantly desolate, it wasn't just one season in the year, it was a barren wasteland all year round.

When we come to the War of the Ring, there are thousands and thousands of troops there. All of that is despite the desolation. And the mountains surrounding Mordor could very well harbor the orcs in their many caves. I doubt the Ephel Duath or the Ash (?) Mountains are places the Gondorians want to check.

Not to mention that the same thing happened to Napoleon, winter came around and all of a sudden his (already stretched thin) supply line just couldn't cut it.

Napoleon's supply lines were only broken after being stretched to Moscow. Had the French not gone towards Moscow, and had rather gone towards St. Petersburg, that breakage may very well not have occurred. The line to the Russian capital, while still thousands of mile long, could have held. Going to Moscow, however, leads one deep across long stetches of nothingness. Both Napoleon and Hitler made that mistake. That is an error the Witch-King would not have to contend with.

So you chose to look at the "possitive side" but you are ignoring the fact that these armies fell... within a year!! How could the WK hold such long supply lines to support his siege for twice as long?

The Wiki's supply line was nowhere near as long, and nor did he have to contend with armies nipping at his lines, as those only ran through Sauron-dominated regions. It's not hard to maintain a longer supply line if you only go through friendly territory. Combined that with the larger potential manpower over Gondor, and it becomes much, much more feasible for the Nazgul to lay siege for a longer time, and resist the relief efforts.

There is almost no explanation for whatever happens. We just get one brief line of text and a lot of guesswork.

I think Tolkien's mentioning of the fall of Ithil is quite enough explanation. The word "Siege" says it all. There is no guesswork in that, to me.

And in the light of those "unconventional" situations, what is so rare about a haunting that demoralises the troops and leads a few scared souls to open the doors to an enemy that, otherwise, would not have been enough to besiege the city without being driven off by near-by Minas Tirith/Osgiliath forces?

What is rare about it? That is the point. It is rare, to the point of being unheard of. And I do not recall a haunting being another meaning for the word 'siege'.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. While there are some pitfalls in explaining the fullness of either argument, the idea of a traditional "siege" fits more easily with what Tolkien wrote, and is thus the simplest explanation (in going with exactly what Tolkien wrote). A Haunting requires so much more flushing out and it does not really fit with the definition of the word that Tolkien chose. I doubt Tolkien would have come up with an entirely new meaning for "siege" without explaining it. And Tolkien obviously did not write anything to the effect of the situation of a Haunting occurring. Thus, it is far more likely that the simplest idea, that of the traditionally defined siege, is the most correct and feasible one.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Nazgul: (knocks on the door)

gatekeeper: who is it??

Nazgul: um courier...

gatekeeper: (opens gates)

Nazgul: (quickly jump in and storm the place)

[The 1,000 Reader]

Nazgul: (knocks on the door)

gatekeeper: who is it??

Nazgul: um courier...

gatekeeper: (opens gates)

Nazgul: (quickly jump in and storm the place)

Isn't it obvious that the Nazgul just sat outside the gate while the Witch-King used the tech tree he made in his Angmar Campaign to constantly bombard Minas Ithil with Avalanches, swarm with Summoned Orcs and Wights, and sick the Ice Wolf on the city? The reason it took two years was because there was a lot to conquer and the spells needed to recharge! ;)

[Kuruharan]

All of that is despite the desolation.

Sauron had his tribute system up and running by then.

Combined that with the larger potential manpower over Gondor, and it becomes much, much more feasible for the Nazgul to lay siege for a longer time, and resist the relief efforts.

We still seem to not be communicating on this.

the idea of a traditional "siege" fits more easily with what Tolkien wrote

Not really, as we have been explaining for quite some time now.

[Rhod the Red]

There's no mention of a battle to take Minas Ithil, so I imagine the Nazgul used their power of fear (magnified by their combined number) to drive out the guards/population.

[tom the eldest]

Finally!i've searching for this thread even before i join the forum!

Now,maybe at the time minas ithil is besieged,gondor's atention was diverted to somewher else.could the corsair maybe distracting gondor while the nazgul attack?with the plalantir,ithil could communicate with the king,but if they do not know what attacking them,the king's answer maybe 'hold on,we are curretnly busy.we will send troops as fast as we can'.but then,the king and the steward forgot it,and then its too late.

Ah,im so happy now that i found this thread.:)


PS: old thread get really long,much longer than the new one,isnt it?