RE: Elrond/ next high king of the Noldor.

[Dloomis494]

After Earendil, Elrond was next in direct descent from Turgon for High King. He never became the High King. Any ideas why Elrond never layed claim to the crown?

[Alcuin]

I believe the order of the Noldorin High-Kings in Middle-earth was Fëanor Fingolfin Fingon Turgon Gil-galadI think that you are correct that Eärendil was, through his mother Idril, properly the heir of his grandfather, Turgon. There is considerable disagreement about the lineage of Gil-galad, the last High-King of the Noldor in Middle-earth. The most obvious explanation for the discrepancy is that the exact lineage had not been resolved (see Peoples of Middle-earth, “Shibboleth of Fëanor”, “The parentage of Gil-galad”). Other explanations that fit within the story might be that Gil-galad was named successor of Turgon before Eärendil and his parents arrived in the Havens of Sirion; that Gil-galad was named king because the very survival Noldor was questionable, and he was an adult, while Eärendil was a child; or that Eärendil’s status as a Noldo was in question because of his mortal father, Tuor. But the best explanation may be that the Noldor followed a rule of agnatic succession.

From a genealogical point of view, there are a few interesting things about Gil-galad becoming High King. The only survivor of the House of Fingolfin was Idril; but her son, Eärendil, was technically a member of the Third House of the Edain by patrilineal lines. I believe Elros, his son, was recognized as the Lord of the Third House as well as High King of the Númenóreans. (Whether or not the survivors of the First House had a recognized lord is an interesting subject that touches on the Lords of Andúnië and Elendil and his descendents in Middle-earth.) By making Gil-galad High King, the Noldor moved the High Kingship a second time, to the House of Finarfin. (The first move was from the House of Fëanor to Fingolfin and his heirs.) Thus Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin ruled the Noldor in Middle-earth, while his forefather Finarfin was High King of the Noldor in Eldamar. Galadriel does not seem to have been considered as ruler of the Noldor in her own right. Perhaps that is because she and Celeborn had already crossed over the Ered Luin into Eriador. (But see the discussion of Eregion below.)

If the Noldor followed a rule of simple primogeniture (that is, of the first-born), then Idril would be “Ruling Queen” and her son Eärendil would be High King after she and Tuor departed Middle-earth. If they followed agnatic succession (succession by patrilineal seniority), then the High Kingship would by rights fall to Gil-galad, the last remaining male descendent of Finwë in Middle-earth.

If the Noldor followed a rule of agnatic succession, Elrond could not become High King of the Noldor: the patrilineal line of Finwë became extinct in Middle-earth upon the demise of Gil-galad; moreover, Elrond was, like his brother Elros, by patrilineage technically a member of the Third House of the Edain.

There is good evidence that the Sindar, at least, did not follow a rule of agnatic succession: Dior Eluchíl became King of Doriath after his grandfather Elu Thingol was slain through his mother, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Thingol and Melian. In that sense, Elrond could have claimed a title like “King of the Sindar,” claiming lineage through his mother Elwing, since his grandfather Dior had claimed the throne of Doriath through his mother, Lúthien; but there is no evidence that he did this, either.

Celeborn, Elrond’s wife’s father (and also Elrond’s great-granduncle, apparently, a relationship genealogically equivalent to being second cousins), had a better claim by agnatic succession to the rule the Sindar through his father Galadhon to his grandfather Elmo, in some tellings the ticklish younger brother of Elu Thingol and Olwë, who ruled the Telerin in Alqualondë. (War of the Jewels, “Tale of Years”; Elmo is also listed in the index. Such close relationships are not uncommon in old genealogies where people were few in isolated communities; and a similar situation arose among the crowned heads of Europe toward the end of the nineteenth century: almost all of them were closely related to one another, most famously George V of Britain, Nicholas II of Russia, and Wilhelm II of Germany, who were all grandchildren of Queen Victoria and so first cousins. I’ve always though that George V and Nicholas II bore a striking resemblance to one another.) But there is no evidence that Celeborn took any such title, either; however, in one telling of the Tale (in Unfinished Tales, “History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”), Galadriel founded the “(primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion” about II 700 and ruled it until under the influence of Sauron, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain revolted and seized power between II 1350 and II 1400.

Rivendell was founded by the (mostly) Noldorin survivors of Eregion under the leadership of Elrond who led them in retreat when they were cut off from Gil-galad by Sauron’s armies in the war between the Elves and Sauron in the late seventeenth century of the Second Age after the forging of the One Ring (op. cit.: II 1697; see also Rotk, “Appendix B”), and it became the chief dwelling-place of the Noldor in Middle-earth after the death of Gil-galad. Since Celebrimbor in defiance of Gil-galad (and Galadriel?) had set himself up as ruler of Eregion under the influence of Sauron, and that turned out so badly, it might be that the Noldor were not keen to take another lord other than Gil-galad; but there is no question that Elrond was their leader as Master of the Last Homely House, the only title that seems to be associated with him (“Master Elrond”), and that not of his own choosing.

Interestingly enough, Arwen took the title “Queen of Elves and Men” (RotK, “Appendix A”, “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen”). Her queenship must have derived from her ancestor Thingol through Lúthien through Dior through Elwing through Elrond her father; the title has implications about the fates of Elladan and Elrohir, but I am not certain that any strong indications about them can be drawn from it. It does strengthen the notion that the Sindar did not follow a rule of agnatic succession.

I think that if Elrond had assumed a royal title, it would have to have been one based upon his descent from Thingol, rather than from Finwë; however, had he done so, it would have put him conflict with Oropher and later his son Thranduil who had established a kingdom under his rule in Greenwood the Great (later Mirkwood); as well as with Amroth of Lórien, who ruled there in his own name, and later with Celeborn and Galadriel, who took no title there other than “Lord and Lady,” perhaps in imitation of the successful strategy taken by Elrond. It seems that Elrond chose to eschew any royal title: everyone among the Elves knew who he was anyway, he was ruler in Rivendell in his own right, and he avoided all kinds of difficult diplomatic questions and potentially destructive power struggles by avoiding a title. Not for naught did people in Middle-earth consider him wise.

It is noteworthy, too, that after the ruin of Arnor when Arthedain was destroyed and Fornost taken by the Witch-king, Aranarth son of Arvedui dispensed with the title King of Arnor (or Arthedain) and began to use the title “Chieftain of the Dúnedain of the North.” I think that the influence of Elrond can be seen here: humility, practicality, and quiet dignity.

[CSteefel]

I recall there has been some discussion on this point, but I seem to remember that Gil-galad was also described as the son of Fingon, at least in the Silmarillion... So this would have placed him before any son of Turgon...

[Alcuin]

I recall there has been some discussion on this point, but I seem to remember that Gil-galad was also described as the son of Fingon, at least in the Silmarillion... So this would have placed him before any son of Turgon...You are correct, CSteefel. That was my reference to, “The most obvious explanation for the discrepancy is that the exact lineage had not been resolved.” I should have been more explicit. Thank you for correcting me; but I was trying to avoid that subject. One reason is that even the original lineage, or the lineage that Christopher Tolkien used when editing Silmarillion, would not answer Dloomis494’s question.

And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth.The citation is from Silmarillion, “Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin”. The other reason to avoid the subject is that it rapidly becomes very complicated. In “Shibboleth of Fëanor”, Christopher Tolkien says thatMy father originally supposed that Gil-galad was the son of Felagund King of Nargothrond. … it remained his belief until after the completion of The Lord of the Rings… in the published text (The Silmarillion, p. 286) Fingon is an editorial alteration of Felagund.So the discussion starts with “an editorial alteration”, but not what we usually call a “typo”: I think it means that it was deliberately altered while Silmarillion was being edited. Was “Fingon” for “Felagund” right or wrong? I don’t know. Christopher Tolkien goes on to note that in Silmarillion, Galadriel was Gil-galad’s sister. It emerged, however, … that Felagund had no wife, for … Amarië whom he loved had not been permitted to leave Valinor. So unless Gil-galad and Galadriel popped out of Felagund’s forehead like Athena from Zeus’s headache, they aren’t his kids.

There follows a paragraph on Orodreth, who started off as Felagund’s brother, becomes his son and Finduilas’s father, while “Rhodothir” (Gil-galad) becomes Felagund’s nephew. That isn’t all the information in just that one paragraph; and there are six more, each dense as uranium, before there is a discussion of the Dwarvish origins of the name “Felagund.”

In short, after several more transpositions in the Finwë family tree, Ereinion Gil-galad, son of Fingon son of Fingolfin in Silmarillion, becomes Rodnor Gil-galad, son of Orodreth son of Angrod son of Finarfin, ending with the mea culpaMuch closer analysis of the admittedly extremely complex material than I made twenty years ago makes it clear that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon … was an ephemeral idea.I suspect there is a thread on the subject someplace on Barrow-downs that one of the more experienced participants will recall and might helpfully point out for us. It certainly deserves – nay, requires – a thread of its own.

Since it came no closer to answering Dloomis494’s question – but mostly because it is both mind-numbing and the subject of sometimes heated debate in some venues – I tried to skate around it. You caught me.

[littlemanpoet]

Since Celebrimbor in defiance of Gil-galad (and Galadriel?) had set himself up as ruler of Eregion under the influence of Sauron, and that turned out so badly, it might be that the Noldor were not keen to take another lord other than Gil-galad; but there is no question that Elrond was their leader as Master of the Last Homely House, the only title that seems to be associated with him (“Master Elrond”), and that not of his own choosing.I was not aware that the rulership of Celebrimbor was a usurpation. Is that supported in the text? If it is, it certainly fits the patterns and would explain a lot.

[Dloomis494]

Thank You Alcuin. As deep and scholarly a discussion as any could want. Some would think Elrond was hiding in Imladris so as not to be obliterated like Gil-galad and others of his brethren; as he would have been with the title High King.

[Idril]

By LITTLE MAN POET:I was not aware that the rulership of Celebrimbor was a usurpation. Is that supported in the text? If it is, it certainly fits the patterns and would explain a lot.

I believe it was an usurpation, however I need to go back and look it up...
something about the liking of Sauron by Celebrimbor and the disliking of him by Galadriel. I think that was what led to it, quite fascinating really.


~Idril Celebrindal~

[Raynor]

I agree it was an usurpation:
Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mirdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mirdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dum to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian.

[Idril]

That was the passage I was looking for, thankyou, you saved me some work :D

I always found that very interesting.

I am not a scholar of Tolkiens works, I have only read them, however I was thinking (I know it's dangerous for me to do that, but lifes about risks :p )
is another reason that Elrond didn't take up high King ship the fact that the Noldor were scattered? Some were in Valinor, some were in Lasgalen, some were wanderers, and there were some in Loth-Lorien. To my way of thinking, the Noldor were fading, they were leaving, they didn't need a high king, they needed a ship!

Anyway you are welcome to try and change my way of thinking if you wish.


Namarie,


~Idril Celebrindal~

[yavanna II]

It is noteworthy, too, that after the ruin of Arnor when Arthedain was destroyed and Fornost taken by the Witch-king, Aranarth son of Arvedui dispensed with the title King of Arnor (or Arthedain) and began to use the title “Chieftain of the Dúnedain of the North.” I think that the influence of Elrond can be seen here: humility, practicality, and quiet dignity.

Isang gagong sagot:
Elrond did not choose to take up any royal title because think of it: every king, from Finwe to Gil-Galad, had died violent deaths.

And who would Elrond rule anyway? Some Noldor came back to the West, some were under Celebrimbor (were there some under Galadriel?). It's enough he had Imladris... and he did not need such a title, he pretty had much power over the Elves and the other races, anyway.