Where did all the goblins go?

[Sardy]

Forgive me if this has been covered before, or if there's an explanation in the books that I somehow missed?

At the end of the Third Age, after the defeat of Sauron, what became of all the goblins and orcs? Were they bound to Sauron and the ring, and so faded after its destruction? Did they retreat to the deep places of the earth, never to be heard from again? Did they become second-class citizens?

I'm curious whether their fate was ever addressed...

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

didnt they just scatter all around ME

[MatthewM]

I believe a lot retreated to the woods where they were crushed by the Huorns and the Ents...at least after the battle of Helm's Deep. I'm pretty sure many did still retreat to the woods after the fall of Sauron, and they were either consumed by the Ents/Huorns or the soldiers of Gondor. This is all speculation however, I have no evidence...pure speculation.

[Rhod the Red]

Wiped out, as the Renunited Kingdom formed.

[goldfinger]

They were hunted down by the reunited kingdom and it's allies, until none could be found but in the deepest places of the world and elsewhere.

[Thinlómien]

Makes me pity the cute little orcseys...

[littlemanpoet]

Assuming that this is feigned history, one would expect that some goblins, orcses, trolls, and whatnot, survived, or there would be none left to fill the later folklores of the Northern Europeans from approximately 2000 B.C. until such folklores stopped being produced. That would mean no Grendel for Beowulf to fight, for example. So I am supposing that some did escape to the depths of the mountains and to the far nothern wastes beyond the reach of the King of Gondor.

[Elmo]

'Feigned history' :eek: So Middle Earth isn't real then... :(


































:p

[ninja91]

Also pure speculation...

This is Mordor, so there are not too many forests nearby besides Ithilien. I am guessing that the fled into Khand and beyond or just hid in the mountain ranges of Mordor.

[mhagain]

...and re-emerged several thousand years later as door-to-door insurance salesmen. :D

On a more serious note, I don't really see how it could have been much different to the situation at the end of the First, when Thangorodrim was broken. I could easily imagine nests of them hiding out in more secluded places, probably engaged in petty banditry and thuggishness.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

On a more serious note, I don't really see how it could have been much different to the situation at the end of the First, when Thangorodrim was broken. I could easily imagine nests of them hiding out in more secluded places, probably engaged in petty banditry and thuggishness.
...and the same way as in the First, they were forced to go more further to the East... further to the East... further to the East... until they, finally ,were forced to settle down at Kalormë, the Mountain of the Rising Sun :D

Where did all the goblins go, long time passing?
Where did all the goblins go, long time ago?
Where did all the goblins go?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

(But no, I don't want to think what would have to be in the last but one strophe. It's really disgusting.)

[The 1,000 Reader]

With a united, peaceful kingdom being Aragorn's goal, and with no evil being to rally under, it is likely that the orcs all died. As for crossed myths and such, beings such as Grendel could just be like the Watcher in the Water.

[Rhod the Red]

I bet they fought amongst themselves a little, in the panic of leaderless hordes after an ambush to 'punish' 'stupid' scouts, etc.

[Selmo]

After the destruction of the Ring and it's power over the minds of the Orcs, I can imagine the Orcs of the Misty Mountains becoming useful members of the Reunited Kingdom.

Aragorn's forces would be too strong for them to take up their old ways of making a living. To survive they would have to take up a more honest trade. They could start by opening up their tunnels through the mountains to provide safe, all weather routes for the ever-increasing trade between East and West, for heavy tolls, of course.
They could then branch out into providing other services for travellers: a chain of inns along the main roads, ending in a hugh hotel in Fornost; a nation-wide pony-hire service; fast food outlets across the North.

Building on their experiences in Isengard and their profits from road-houses, the Orcs could go on to develope steam engines, leading eventually to OrcRail, a transport network spanning the whole of Middle Earth, creating an era of peace and prosperity, binding the Reunited Kingdom to it's neighbours in alliances of mutual trade.

The orcs become the glue that holds Middle Earth together.
.

[Sardy]

Where did all the goblins go, long time passing?
Where did all the goblins go, long time ago?
Where did all the goblins go?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?


Believe it or not, I was actually humming that as I started this thread..! :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ah! Then it starts to make sense to me. And did you hum it before, or after you named the thread? Because this popped up in my mind just after I saw the title.

[littlemanpoet]

With a united, peaceful kingdom being Aragorn's goal, and with no evil being to rally under, it is likely that the orcs all died. As for crossed myths and such, beings such as Grendel could just be like the Watcher in the Water.
Nyet. Grendel's lineage is, in Beowulf, traced from Cain, eldest son of Adam and Eve. At least that's the mythological construction the author of Beowulf uses.

But I have proof that orcs outlived Sauron: Tolkien in his Letters to his son Christopher repeatedly referred to "orcs on both sides of the war" and such like; apparently, they merged with the races of Men. :p

And Selmo, are you sure you haven't been reading any "Assigned to Mordor" rpgs lately? "Orcs as the glue of society" is just plain hilarious. :D

[mhagain]

But I have proof that orcs outlived Sauron: Tolkien in his Letters to his son Christopher repeatedly referred to "orcs on both sides of the war" and such like; apparently, they merged with the races of Men. :pOh you wit. :D

On a serious note, the only hard evidence we seem to have is that orcs were certainly capable of outliving Melkor (when Sauron had also - initially - surrendered).

In the absence of any statement either way, it's quite reasonable to assume that if they were capable of outliving Melkor, outliving Sauron would have been a relative doddle. If one were able to pin down JRRT today and put the question to him, I suspect he'd answer either "preposterous! of course they obviously did!" or "preposterous! of course they obviously didn't!" :D

Hmmmm - I wonder does "The New Shadow" have anything to say on the matter? Plus I seem to recall either a letter or essay where he said straight up that there would not have been a direct cut off from Sauron's reign to Aragorn's, and that there was still a lot of evil to be rooted out and destroyed.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have a hard time beliveing that the orcs was completely killed off by Aragorn and his forces. . .It simply could not be done!

Middle-Earth is just to big, it is not like they where all gathered in one place and could be trapped. There was plenty of places to seek refuge and to hide and if a Balrog can hide for ages then surely small groups of orcs could have done the same.

I belive that the orcs was destroyed as a power, but not as a race. They would probably have been scattered into small groups seeking refuge in mountains and such and probably also migrating east.

I don't know how long they would survive, but I suppose they would be able to hide for a fair amount of time before dying by sword and because a lack of numbers. Kind of like the Petty-Dwarves.

[Thenamir]

I'm not so sure that orcs don't exist today. You see them pop up from time to time as leaders of places like Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, North Korea...:D

[Bêthberry]

I'm not so sure that orcs don't exist today. You see them pop up from time to time as leaders of places like Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, North Korea...:D

Given Tolkien's interpretation of WWII in the Forward, I would think that any country which glorifies the machine would be powerfully under the sway of orcs.
:(

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, when you quote Tolkien, maybe it is not only about this, wars or machines, but if I take what he says, then the Orcs are far more common than it seems. Or "Orc-minds", at least. In the Appendix to LotR, in the part about the translation of LotR to English - which means also telling what the Orcs said there - Tolkien wrote:
But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.

(I think I'll leave this without comments.)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I'm not so sure that orcs don't exist today. You see them pop up from time to time as leaders of places like Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, North Korea...:D
I am sorry, but I do not see the fun in comparing a democratical elected president with dictators.

[Kuruharan]

I am apparently alone in thinking that Tolkien described the end of the orcs quite well.

The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them...

-and-

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or bease spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.
-The Field of Cormallen

When Sauron went *poof* they had to more master to guide their will and they became little more than beasts and that was pretty much the end of them.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Well, when you quote Tolkien, maybe it is not only about this, wars or machines, but if I take what he says, then the Orcs are far more common than it seems. Or "Orc-minds", at least.

...they're democrats and liberals who spend hours whining about everything and don't do anything every day?

[Rhod the Red]

They're all wiped out, the books and notes don't coreograph continuation of their existance.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

When Sauron went *poof* they had to more master to guide their will and they became little more than beasts and that was pretty much the end of them.
Yeah, exactly like what happened after the War of Wrath, and they survived then (Sauron was not present at that time! And they were bound by the will of Morgoth, not Sauron, and as you can see, there was no problem). Or after the war of the Last Alliance, and they survived again. The only thing that differed from the Fourth Age, I think, is that from what Tolkien said, there was no other power which would put the Orcs together. But they'd survive, diminish, go into the East and remain Goblins. ;)

The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them...
Context, please. Anyway, this only means that Sauron no longer controlled them. He did no longer "support" them by his will, he ceased to care about them. His will was no longer enslaving them, as well.
As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.
This speaks, I think, only on the moment (or the time period, not exact, but not reaching too far, not like for all the Fourth Age or something like that) when the battle was won. The suicidal or mindless acts, I think, do not refer mainly to the Orcs. The "beast spell-enslaved", definitely. The trolls, from what we know, surely. But Orcs? They were "normal" free-willed (now really) beings. The Power that ruled them was gone, yes. Their leader and shiny future (for the carieristic or fanatically devoted Uruk-hai) was gone. What a shock for them. I can imagine the more fanatic of them making suicides, or maybe more of them when facing the totally victorious enemy - but this would apply just for those in the army in front of the Black Gate. There were surely yet some (maybe little, but some) Orcs in Mordor who did not fight, and yet more in the Misty Mountains etc. And what happened to them? I think we might get a very good picture of it, if you take in mind Gorbag and Shagrat:
'I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier.'
'It's going well, they say.'
'They would.' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? – if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah! ' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
They were not dependant on the will of Sauron, and they seem to be pretty happy even if he weren't around. Now when I come to it, I feel a little bit sorry for Gorbag and Shagrat, that they didn't outlive the fall of Sauron. I don't make myself any illusions: their "vacation" would've probably been represented by forming a self-sufficient raiding party, but still, who knows? (smiles at the idea of Orc-version "Shire" where old Gorbag and Shagrat sit under a tree, performing a contest in making smoke rings :smokin: )

[Kuruharan]

Yeah, exactly like what happened after the War of Wrath, and they survived then (Sauron was not present at that time! And they were bound by the will of Morgoth, not Sauron, and as you can see, there was no problem).

There is some question presented in the books about whether his repentance was genuine. In any case, there was still a great force of primordial evil present in the world capable of chaining the wills of the orcs.

It may also have something to do with the fact that Sauron was the one who created the orcs in the first place.

Or after the war of the Last Alliance, and they survived again.

The Ring still existed. Sauron still existed. What is your point here?

But Orcs? They were "normal" free-willed (now really) beings. The Power that ruled them was gone, yes. Their leader and shiny future (for the carieristic or fanatically devoted Uruk-hai) was gone. What a shock for them.

There is a lot to question about what exactly the orcs were and whether the bulk of them were "rational." It is ultimately an unanswerable question because Tolkien changed his own mind on the subject a number of times.

Here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12857) is a cursory treatment.

If you really want to get into some nitty gritty (and delve into the bowels of the site, waaaaay back into its earliest days) click here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4437)

[mhagain]

'I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier.'
'It's going well, they say.'
'They would.' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? – if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah! ' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
I think "Like old times" is the key element of this quote. There was once a time when orcs acted as free agents without any "big bosses", and so - unless their nature has been changed dramatically in the interim - they would subsequently be able to do so again.

It's also blindingly obvious from this that orcs are - and I must emphasise this - rational free-thinking beings. Whatever version of their origin you may subscribe to, it must go without saying that rational free thought can only derive from Eru.

Think of Aule and the Dwarves - when he first created them, they were only able to move and act at his command. Now, this was a small number of Dwarves and one of the mighty of the Valar.

Now contrast. Sauron is a Maia, still powerful, but Aule would be off the scale by comparison (in fact, Aule was Sauron's original "master"). And it's not a small number of orcs, it's tens of thousands.

So no question about it, the orcs would have easily survived Sauron's downfall, no differently to the Haradrim, Variags or Easterlings.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is just what I wanted to say. Mhagain, you saved me the trouble :)

Kuru, I never wanted to start any speculations on Orcs, the Downs have had their share of it. I was only presenting the fact that Orcs, unlike Trolls or spell-enslaved beasts, were not dependant on Sauron. Which mhagain already said pretty brief and clear, I think.

[littlemanpoet]

But I have proof that orcs outlived Sauron: Tolkien in his Letters to his son Christopher repeatedly referred to "orcs on both sides of the war" and such like; apparently, they merged with the races of Men.Believe it or not, someone lacking the intestinal fortitude to identify himself :rolleyes: challenged me on this, claiming there was no such evidence in Tolkien's Letters for it. So, From a letter to Christopher Tolkien dated 6 May 1944 (FS 22):

...For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs. Not that in real life such things are as clear cut as in a story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side . . . . Well, there you are: a hobbit amongst the Urukhai. Pish. That was too easy. :rolleyes:

[Kuruharan]

Kuru, I never wanted to start any speculations on Orcs, the Downs have had their share of it. I was only presenting the fact that Orcs, unlike Trolls or spell-enslaved beasts, were not dependant on Sauron.
-Legate

Alas, I’m afraid that this discussion virtually requires said speculation.

I think "Like old times" is the key element of this quote. There was once a time when orcs acted as free agents without any "big bosses", and so - unless their nature has been changed dramatically in the interim - they would subsequently be able to do so again.
- mhagain

Just because an orc is not being directly commanded by Sauron (in a formal sense) at a given period, does not mean that the orc was not ultimately dependant on Sauron.

Going back to Legate’s statement for a moment…

unlike Trolls
-Legate

Here we have a bit of an inconsistency, at least on Legate’s part. Tom, Bert and William were obviously trolls. When we met them, they were evidently operating on their own. Why are trolls different?

Think of Aule and the Dwarves - when he first created them, they were only able to move and act at his command. Now, this was a small number of Dwarves and one of the mighty of the Valar.

Now contrast. Sauron is a Maia, still powerful, but Aule would be off the scale by comparison (in fact, Aule was Sauron's original "master"). And it's not a small number of orcs, it's tens of thousands.
-mhagain

Indeed, the comparison here is very interesting. Let us consider it in greater detail.

We don’t know (because we are not told) how much of a strain it would be for a Vala to control the will of another being. However, I think about how Melkor “spent his spirit” on the domination of his minions to the point that after the Battle of the Powers Manwë almost didn’t recognize him. After his return to Middle-earth he continued this process until he was a shadow of his former self. This sounds similar to what Eru was warning Aule would happen in his creation of the dwarves (although I think what Melkor was more extreme in that he, in a manner of speaking, broke off bits of himself and made his minions little Melkor’s). What if Sauron was able to tap this Melkor element present in the orcs. That would make it easier for him (a lesser being) to provide direction and control. Once the last being capable of providing this direction disappears, the orcs would wander “mindless” and quickly die out.

Pish. That was too easy.
-lmp

Never complain about “things” being too easy. “Things” have a way of getting revenge. ;)

[Raynor]

In a draft letter, Tolkien noted:
Until much had been done by the restored King, the Prince of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost – and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul).
Therefore, at least these "lost territories" would be cleared of orcs.
We don’t know (because we are not told) how much of a strain it would be for a Vala to control the will of another being.
Tolkien did speculate in HoME X:
In any case the number of orks that were thus 'absorbed' was always only a small part of their total. To hold them in absolute servitude required a great expense of will. Morgoth though in origin possessed of vast power was finite; and it was this expenditure upon the orks, and still more upon the other far more formidable creatures in his service, that in the event so dissipated his powers of mind that Morgoth's overthrow became possible. Thus the greater part of the orks, though under his orders and the dark shadow of their fear of him, were only intermittently objects of his immediate thought and concern, and while that was removed they relapsed into independence and became conscious of their hatred of him and his tyranny.

[The Might]

What they did?
They went into politics.
Turn on the TV to see them. :D

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I expect that at all times, at least after then breaking of Thangorodrim, a greater or lesser proportion of the Orc population were free agents. Their natural tendency, after all, is towards anarchy and entropy! Even after Sauron hung out the "Grand Re-Opening" sign on Barad-dur, there was a considerable lag time involved in whatever bribes, threats or cajolery were involved in 'recruiting' orc-tribes to the Red Eye, and it's unclear that those of, say, Moria were ever working for him. I expect there were any number of "Avari" Orcs in the remoter parts of Middle-earth even during the War of the Ring. When Sauron went down his surviving Orcs returned to their previous sort of existence.