Damned if you do, kablammed if you don't

[Elmo]

In the tale of Adanel, Eru damned men for eternity with shortened lives for worshiping at the temple of Melkor and ignoring the Voice of Eru. When the temple is first built, Melkor asks the men if anyone still speaks to the voice. Some do but are too afraid to say and they all worship at the temple.

Let's just say some decided to say, 'Hey, Great Demon God of Evil, I enjoy a good chinwag from time to time with that voice you seem to hate so much, hope you don't mind and also be a dear and let me off today's 3 o'clock worship.' By saying this they would proably be doing Eru's will but then Melkor would smite them. So that's all the good members of the human race gone, leaving all the evil ones creating an even worse race then the one we have at the moment. Is that what Eru really wanted?

He gave a choice to the human race, death or evil worship and damnation for eternity. Why would Eru just create a race just for them to have those two choices?

[The Might]

Well...everything is life is actually just making choices, same in Tolkien's creation.
Nobody can predict what would have happened had they disobeyed Melkor, it could be that the sacrifice of the faithful would have impressed the others and moved them to making the same choice.
However, we see these people still were capable to change, since not all Men followed Melkor in the end.
Anyway, the story is if I remember well quite old, and so shouldn't be considered as important as Tolkien's later thoughts on such matters.
And also I remember seeing some quote of Tolkien's, from the letters I believem where he way pointing out that if Men weren't mortals, they would just be something very close to Elves, and there wouldn't be much point in creating them as Secondborn as such.

[Folwren]

By saying this they would proably be doing Eru's will but then Melkor would smite them. So that's all the good members of the human race gone, leaving all the evil ones creating an even worse race then the one we have at the moment. Is that what Eru really wanted?

Do you honestly think that if people started standing up and obeying Eru, he would have left them to Melkor's devices and kablamming? I think not. I don't know what you're referring to in this post, I don't remember any temple worshiping, but if Eru gave the men who worshiped Melkor a punishment, then I believe that if they didn't worship Melkor, there would not be punishment, but a reward. Eru's big enough for Melkor, isn't he?

Can't comment further. As I said, I haven't read what you're referring to.

-- Folwren

[The Might]

Good point there Folwren, which makes me have another idea...
Was this really..."kablamming"?
Death was the Gift of Men, something that, as stated in the Silmarillion, would make the Elves and even the Ainur will envy Men for as time passes.
A life under Melkor's rule on the other hand...isn't that great is it?
So if you ask me, I think that by disobeying Melkor and getting killed Men would actually do themselves a favour.

[Raynor]

As I said, I haven't read what you're referring to.I believe he is reffering to a text in HoME X.
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.
...
- Now build Me a house upon a high place, and call it the House of the Lord
…
The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying:
- Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him. And also I remember seeing some quote of Tolkien's, from the letters I believem where he way pointing out that if Men weren't mortals, they would just be something very close to Elves, and there wouldn't be much point in creating them as Secondborn as such.A very interesting point is found in this text too:
...their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function. He gave a choice to the human race, death or evil worship and damnation for eternity. Why would Eru just create a race just for them to have those two choices?It wasn't just these two choices since, as pointed previously, many (though not all) that wanted managed to escape. However, there is a considerable amount of salt to be taken with this story, considering that Men thought they should have been immortal, and also because Melkor appears in a fair form - of which he was not capable anymore after his evading from Valinor
Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought [Ungoliant] out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.

[The Might]

Yes Raynor, that's the quote I was talking about, wasn't sure where I had seen it though. ;)

[Lalwendë]

By saying this they would proably be doing Eru's will but then Melkor would smite them. So that's all the good members of the human race gone, leaving all the evil ones creating an even worse race then the one we have at the moment. Is that what Eru really wanted?

We know that had anyone stood up to Melkor and refused to worship him then they'd get their 'gift' of Death and all that. That's a given, surely. But I think that what hewhoarisesinmight (hewhohasalongscreennametotype ;)) is saying is that if everyone did that, then there would be no good guys left at all to 'resist' anyway! It's a good point to make about the very practical matter of mankind simply surviving.

I hope Folwren is right and that Eru would step in and save some of the men before they all got wiped out! :eek:

[Raynor]

I hope Folwren is right and that Eru would step in and save some of the men before they all got wiped out! :eek:I agree
If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. Although this is stated in relation to estel, it is consistent with the depiction of Eru.

Has anyone figured yet the purpose of the merisu smilie?:D

[Elmo]

I don't really understand your point, Melkor smiting the children will not deprive Eru of them, they will in fact be closer to him (apparently)

[Raynor]

Melkor smiting the children will not deprive Eru of themI believe your tongue is firmly placed in your cheek ;). Eru had far greater plans with the Children than to allow this species to be crushed
And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.
...
[] of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.Some of the reasons of creating the Men is for them to bring their part to Creation, to inherit Arda, and that their deeds should redound to the glory of Eru.

[Elmo]

As is mentionied in this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12761), it doesn't seem to be Eru's style to step in and protect men. (to smite them on the other hand... ;)) If he wouldn't step into his creation and protect men from Sauron why would he protect them from Melkor in this case?

[Raynor]

it doesn't seem to be Eru's style to step in and protect men.Matters of style can be debated endlessly, however, even if we don't see burning bushes and the likes, the hand of Eru is ever present, esspecially since everything depends on him (cf Silmarillion & Athrabeth).