'Pre-baptised'

[davem]

So I was thinking. CS Lewis once said that his intention in the Narnia books was to 'pre-baptise' children's imaginations - they would first read the Narnia books, & when they later encountered Christianity they would be in some way prepared for what they would encounter in the Christian story. What he meant, I think, was that Jesus would remind them of Aslan & so he wouldn't seem so 'strange' & unfamiliar to them. Perhaps he also meant that the Narnia stories would create a 'longing' in them for a 'bigger' story.

Now, was there anything that 'pre-baptised' you for Middle-earth?

For me, believe it or not, it was a Monty Python sketch. I was about 12 or 13 years old & I had flicked across onto BBC1 & Python was on. There was a panning shot of a bleak Icelandic landscape & a voice intoned the following:

"Erik Njorl, son of Frothgar, leaves his home to seek Hangar the Elder at the home of Thorvald Nlodvisson, the son of Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce ... "

Now, up to then, I'd never come across the Eddas or thee Sagas, & this was totally strange to me, yet at the same time it awakened a desire in me that was fulfilled three or four years later when I discovered The Hobbit & LotR. I went on to read the Eddas, the Sagas, Beowulf, The Mabinogion, Kalevala - & many of the other works that inspired Tolkien himself, but looking back on it, it was those Pythons that awoke the desire for Middle-earth. Of course the sketch was meant to gently mock Saga literature, but even in that form it touched me on a very deep level.

What was it for you? Was there something that made you realise there was something you were looking for - some 'gap' that you hadn't been aware of up till then - & suddenly, when you found Middle-earth, you realised 'That's what it reminded me of!'

[Boo Radley]

Probably for me, it was all the Sword and Sorcery books I had read back in Jr. High. Conan, Fahfred and the Grey Mouser, Elric, Kull of Valusia. I devoured those books.
But they were all short stories and I wanted to immerse myself in something a bit grander in scale.
Then, in my Junior year of High School, a buddy of mine told me about LoTR.
And then, there was no looking back.

[Bêthberry]

Now, was there anything that 'pre-baptised' you for Middle-earth?

For me, believe it or not, it was a Monty Python sketch. . . .

What was it for you? Was there something that made you realise there was something you were looking for - some 'gap' that you hadn't been aware of up till then - & suddenly, when you found Middle-earth, you realised 'That's what it reminded me of!'

Funny you should mention the Python sketch, davem, as I often instinctively associate Balin and Dwalin, Kili and Fili, and Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin and Gloin with that sketch, to say nothing of Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin. To be honest, I'm not sure which came first in my 'baptism, Tolkien or Python. Certainly, the 'gap' in this picture of the viking headpiece absolutely created a horns of dilemma about the origins of northern humour. To be honest, if only Cleese had had a beard, I think my image of dwarven women would have been secured.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/MimsyBorogroves/pythonviking.jpg

[Formendacil]

Um... does anyone else see Legolas in that picture?

I realise it's totally offtopic, but my first thought was that something had photoshopped movie-Legolas into that Viking...

Anyways...

Ironically enough, if anything pre-baptised me for the Lord of the Rings, it was those selfsame Chronicle of Narnia of which you speak.

[narfforc]

Strangly I was also Pre-baptised by the Chronicles of Narnia, along with Thor the God of Thunder (Marvel Comics), I was in a play at school (1970) as Fili and the year after started to read about The Saxons and Vikings I went on to read about more Norse and Celtic mythology after reading Lord of the Rings. One of the other set of books I read was the John Carter Mars series with it's strange names of Barsoom and Tars Tarkus, however it was Narnia that set the joy in my heart.

P.S Did Erik ever find Hangar the Elder?


.

[davem]

The 'pre-baptism' idea is also found in Niggle (Niggle's Parish is 'the best introduction to the Mountains'). I wonder if Tolkien & Lewis were trying to 'pre-baptise' readers into the same thing, though?)

What interests me re the Python sketch is that it is basically a list of strange (though evocative) names - there isn't much of a 'story' there. Except....

There is - the names themselves imply great events: Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce ...

Where was Ljosa water? How come Harviyoun a 'half-troll'? This 'list of names' - didn't one critic describe The Sil as an 'Elvish telephone directory? - is fascinating in itself, without knowing anything more of the story.

BTW a friend has mentioned that it may have been Terry Jones, himself something of a medievalist, & Tolkien fan (he recorded the audio books of Tolkien's Gawain, Pearl & Sir Orfeo) who was responsible for that particular sketch. And I think I'm right in saying that Jones was responsible for the 'Python' movie Erik the Viking.

P.S Did Erik ever find Hangar the Elder?

I always wondered that too. I remember feeling very disappointed when they went off to do 'something completely different' at that point...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What a fun topic, davem! There's another Tolkien reference to something similar in Smith of Wootton Major - the fairy queen on the Great Cake: Better a little doll, maybe, than no memory of Faery at all. For some the only glimpse. For some the awaking.
If anything in particular paved the way for LotR for me, it was probably the reading of fairy tales as a child. After all, many of them are short story versions of quests, and there are dragons, talking animals, kings and queens, magical items - and fairies! I read a lot of "advanced" fairy tales after the usual assortment of Grimm's etc. - international or literary stories that took me away from the familiar world of folk tales.

What also prepared me for an epic tale of this magnitude was the fact that I began reading huge historical novels in my early teens. LotR does read like an historical story, and anyone who has already read War and Peace can't be fazed by a mere 1000 pages or so... ;) Of course, I read LotR at a later age than many others here, and 'The Council of Elrond' was fascinating, not boring to me!

[alatar]

I'm thinking that it was due to an interest in mythology. Can remember reading (and recently purchased for my kids), D'Aulaires Book of Greek Myths (http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-DAulaire/dp/0440406943/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/103-8428711-1002266?ie=UTF8&qid=1175617640&sr=1-2), which is an oversized books filled with stories of Zeus, Heracles and other gods, demigods and heroes of old. Of course I branched into the Norse myths with hammered Thor and all, and drank up anything on the subject that was available in our local school library, which was pretty small. Note that the librarian made sure that you were able to read the books that you requested, as we'd hate to have children try and read beyond their expected grade level, now would we? :rolleyes:

Can't discount the water that came from motion pictures that featured Harry Harryhausen's work, such as Jason and the Argonauts and the Sinbad flicks.

Once the 1980's hit with D&D, AD&D and the various fantasy movies (The Sword and the Sorcerer, Ladyhawke, Krull and Hawk the Slayer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080846/)), if not already, I was then drowned.

Hmm, but for the presence of damsels in distress, would I now be reading the sports pages? ;)

[Elfchick7]

Ooh! Fun thread.

Fairy tales definitely paved the way for my LOTR experience.

Actually I watched the Hobbit and ROTK cartoons when I was little but I never made the connection. So when I picked up the books I was constantly saying, "Oh my gosh! This is the same as those movies!!!"

B/c of that the movies are still close to my heart even though they are NOT how I imagine Tolkien's wonderful world to be.

Now someone is going to thwack me over the head for bringing up the cartoons. haha. Oh well

[Lalwendë]

I was set up for it by being born into my family - they like telling tales of this and that and the Boggart loomed large all the time.

As a child my favourites were Rupert the Bear (I have just retrieved all those old annuals going back to the 1940s with the lovely pictures) and his friends Algy the Pug, TigerLily, Podgy Pig and most of all that humanised bundle of firewood, Raggety! I must, as a result, be one of the only people in the whole world to enjoy Paul McCartney's Frog Chorus with accompanying Rupert video ;) Then I loved Brer Rabbit too, and the tales of him getting stuck to the Tar Baby, and Alice In Wonderland (my book had a lurid, technicolor Alice and she was very cool indeed), which my dad refused to read to me because he thought it was "Silly" (yet talking bears in checked trousers are not?). There were also the usual fairy tales, and Richard Scarry picture books, and all manner of mad things, like my mum reading me Goblin Market.

Then of course there was TV with things like the very odd Noggin The Nog, Ivor The Engine (all them Welsh dragons), Rentaghost, Catweazle, Worzel Gummidge, etc.

The 70s were a good time to be a kid, everything was slightly crazed, psychedelic, multi-coloured and fantastical. Even toys were mad - I mean, Space Hoppers?! And what about Space Dust? Then you'd get your brother blasting out Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd from his room. And your dad thought nothing of donning a paisley cravat and wallpapering your bedroom in purple and peacock blue paisley wallpaper (this actually gave me nightmares).

After all of that, Hobbits were quite normal really. ;)

[davem]

Its odd, but for me, its almost as if I was yearning for Middle-earth before I even knew Middle-earth existed. Or at least as if, on some level, what Tolkien created was what I desired - not Beowulf or the Sagas, or the Kalevala or the Eddas - but what Tolkien himself created from those sources. As if someone or something was tapping me on the shoulder to change the TV channel that night, catch that Python episode, so that I'd become conscious of that 'need' I had felt without even knowing it was there. Because it was Middle-earth I was looking for - the sources never touched me in the same way when I did finally read them. No, it was Middle-earth itself that I wanted & only Middle-earth.

But what if Tolkien hadn't created M-e? What if I hadn't been able to find it because Tolkien had never brought it into existence - would I still be looking for it? Or would I have just 'made do' with the 'glimpses' I found in the Sagas & books of fairy stories?

[MatthewM]

The Ralph Bakshi cartoon when I was younger, if that counts :/

[alatar]

Its odd, but for me, its almost as if I was yearning for Middle-earth before I even knew Middle-earth existed. Or at least as if, on some level, what Tolkien created was what I desired - not Beowulf or the Sagas, or the Kalevala or the Eddas - but what Tolkien himself created from those sources. As if someone or something was tapping me on the shoulder to change the TV channel that night, catch that Python episode, so that I'd become conscious of that 'need' I had felt without even knowing it was there. Because it was Middle-earth I was looking for - the sources never touched me in the same way when I did finally read them. No, it was Middle-earth itself that I wanted & only Middle-earth.
It may be of interest to define the need that ME fills. Is it common amongst enthusiasts - why are we here? Or is it something random? Guess this will be hard to explore as we don't have easy access to those that have read LotR yet did not get on the bus.

Anyone want to take a turn on the couch?


But what if Tolkien hadn't created M-e? What if I hadn't been able to find it because Tolkien had never brought it into existence - would I still be looking for it? Or would I have just 'made do' with the 'glimpses' I found in the Sagas & books of fairy stories?
It's been said that if the gorilla did not exist that we would have created it. Likewise, eventually someone would have put forth the theory of General Relativity. Middle Earth would have been/would be created as well (i.e. by Robert Jordan of WoT fame perhaps? :rolleyes: ). You see this Middle Earth and think it 'good,' yet have not read the version created by the doubleplusgood Tolkien using the word processors invented in 1902 (in another timeline). Reading that one, you would think that this version that we currently have leaves you feeling a bit empty.


As if someone or something was tapping me on the shoulder to change the TV channel that night...
Busted! Sorry...blame it on bad time machine calibration and a local negative reality inversion. ;)

[Lalaith]

Where was Ljosa water?

It is in north-east Iceland, and pretty it is too. (http://www.veidikortid.is/?PageID=74)
Thorgeir Ljosvetningagodi aka Ljosa water priest, was cool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Eorgeirr_Lj%C3%B3svetningago%C3%B0i). By meditating under a blanket like that, Iceland's conversion took place peacefully, with no evangelical bloodshed, unlike the rest of the Nordic region.


But I am most obliged to you. I thought I'd seen every Python sketch ever but this Viking one passed me by completely. Of course, silly Terry, they never wore horned helmets.....The rest is pretty authentic, however.....

[davem]

It is in north-east Iceland, and pretty it is too. (http://www.veidikortid.is/?PageID=74)

Verily it is very pretty, but I'm not sure its as pretty in reality as it was 'mysterious' when it was just a name in my head, like Cuivienen....

That's the thing about strange names - Ljosa Water, Cuivienen, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Magnificent - every name implies a story - what does 'Ljosa' mean? Why is the mountain 'lonely'? But sometimes the mystery is more attractive than the solution....

[The Might]

Guess good old Romanian fairy stories might have pre-baptised me for Tolkien's work, and perhaps other myths and legends from other cultures.
But The Hobbit probably was the first book of its kind that I read.

[Lalaith]

It means lake of light - hope that restores some of the mystery, Davem...
...and I've found a much more mysterious picture for you, too....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkvam/128213508/

[Rulavi]

Verily it is very pretty, but I'm not sure its as pretty in reality as it was 'mysterious' when it was just a name in my head, like Cuivienen....

That's the thing about strange names - Ljosa Water, Cuivienen, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Magnificent - every name implies a story - what does 'Ljosa' mean? Why is the mountain 'lonely'? But sometimes the mystery is more attractive than the solution....

C.S.Lewis "On Stories" agrees:

"To be stories at all they must be series of events: but it must be understood that this series—the plot, as we call it—is only really a net whereby to catch something else. The real theme may be, and perhaps usually is, something that has no sequence in it, something other than a process and much more like a state or quality. Giantship, otherness, the desolation of space, are examples that have crossed our path [earlier in the essay]. The titles of some stories illustrate the point very well. The Well at the World's End—can a man write a story to that title? Can he find a series of events following one another in time which will really catch and fix and bring home to us all that we grasp at on merely hearing the six words? Can a man write a story on Atlantis—or is it better to leave the word to work on its own? And I must confess that the net very seldom does succeed in catching the bird."

(For me fairy stories, Howard Pyle, CSL's Narnia and space trilogy, George MacDonald, the Old Testament, retellings of Greek mythology, the Iliad and Odyssey, SciFi including early Heinlein and Poul Anderson, were pre-baptisms for Middle Earth or verce visa. And inoculations against certain other things.)

--Rulavi

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Guess good old Romanian fairy stories might have pre-baptised me for Tolkien's work, and perhaps other myths and legends from other cultures.
But The Hobbit probably was the first book of its kind that I read.
Seconded (only remove the word "Romanian"). But actually, I was pre-baptised the most very closely before reading the Hobbit, it was about year and a half before it, if I remember correctly. These were not books, however, but roleplaying games. Funny enough, I was about 7 or 8 years old at that point. I didn't encounter fantasy literature in any form before that, and on summer holiday, my cousin persuaded us (me, his younger brother and his sister - about 11-15 years old they were at that time, I think - and our parents :p ) to play a roleplaying game called "Dračí doupě"*. I was fascinated by the elves, orcs and all that stuff... and also, in the game there were hobbits. Not just "halflings" as they are in all other fantasy books and games, but "hobbits". (it would interest me if Tolkien has a trademark on this word, possibly this is why the word "hobbit" does not actually appear anywhere? Also, the out-of-ME halflings appear often quite different from the "true" hobbits. Bleagh. But anyway, in Czech the word is spelled only with one "B", so probably no trademarks applied? :p ) Uh... what was I saying? Yes, hobbits. You must agree that it is not such a normal word, is it? And so, do you think that I'd overlook a book named "The Hobbit"? Of course not. But it was still a long time after that when I first read the Hobbit, and also I didn't know yet about any "Lord of the Rings" at that moment.

This happened one year later. Next summer after the event described above, I got a Polish board game "Bitwa na Polach Pelennoru" (not necessary to translate, I think). Merely an A3-size hex paper, with seven walls, one field labelled "Citadel", and on the corners of the map three arrows labeled "to Rohan", "to Mines Morgul" and "to Pelangir" (the authors were nuts). But my cousins, when seeing it, swarmed (there were two of them, but the word describes pretty well what they did) around the board and with cries "Pelargir! Mines Morgul!" (well, they had better in spelling than the authors) started to talk about some "Lord of the Rings" I never heard of. It was later then I learned it was some sort of a book (my grandmother, who was working in a library, had the opinion that it's a three-volume book, where the first was named "Lord of the Rings" and the second "Lord of the Tower". How would she name the last one, I don't know. Possibly "Lord of the King"). I didn't do anything about it, though. Until later that year, in autumn, my older cousin (the very same one who forced us to play that RPG) got Iron Crown Enterprises' "Lord of the Rings roleplaying game" as birthday pressent... uh, present. It was in a lovely red box with Angus McBride's picture of Éowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul. I had to have it. So I murdered Deal... oh, no, no, that was another story. My parents just came with that wonderful idea of giving me the LotR roleplaying game as a Christmas present. (Warning: plot details follow) There was a story of some folks from Bree going after a dangerous troll who wandered too close to Bree. But the authors did a wonderful job of describing Tolkien's world and I totally fell in love with it.

So here you go. I think this is what you might call "pre-baptised" in the very sense of the word. I was pre-baptised by the same water, by Tolkien, though it was actually a "fake water" not written by Tolkien. My first reading about ME was not written by Tolkien. Quite unusual, uh? Hope this does not make me a heretic. Well, I think the point is that I read the Hobbit and LotR after that, even if it was not the first.

*A cheaper, less sophisticated Czech version of "Dungeons and Dragons" (even the name means more or less the same). It was shortly after Velvet revolution when some guys learned about D&D in the West and then they came back with an idea of providing our country with something like that - the market wasn't so connected still at that time, so D&D didn't appear here. They made quite a good job with it, and it became No.1 in the Czech RPGing world. Well, not that any RPGing world existed here before. Possibly, if there wasn't a delay with them making 3rd edition of the rules, Dungeons&Dragons would stand no chance on Czech market. Dračí doupě was not a mere clone, actually it was pretty inventive, though less sophisticated (and maybe this was actually why it was so popular), it contained some ideas the D&D makers didn't think of.

[davem]

The Well at the World's End—can a man write a story to that title? Can he find a series of events following one another in time which will really catch and fix and bring home to us all that we grasp at on merely hearing the six words? Can a man write a story on Atlantis—or is it better to leave the word to work on its own? And I must confess that the net very seldom does succeed in catching the bird."


You know, I find the same thing with the cover paintings on fantasy novels - so beautiful, mysterious & evocative...yet when you read the synopsis on the back, or skim the pages, its the usual stuff about 'Dark Lords, hapless heroes, magical talismans' & such. If only the story lived up to the cover.....

(And to be honest, I don't suppose Erik's story would have lived up to that wonderful set up.....

[Rulavi]

You know, I find the same thing with the cover paintings on fantasy novels - so beautiful, mysterious & evocative...yet when you read the synopsis on the back, or skim the pages, its the usual stuff about 'Dark Lords, hapless heroes, magical talismans' & such. If only the story lived up to the cover.....

(And to be honest, I don't suppose Erik's story would have lived up to that wonderful set up.....

We must have read different fantasy novels ;) . I usually have had the opposite experience: if there's a book that speaks to me, it's despite the cover (and any other illustrations) not because of it. And often in such cases it's the content that's "beautiful, mysterious & evocative"; the pictures fail because they are too (and wrongly) specific. Movies similarly, natch, though it's somewhat easier for a movie: it doesn't need to capture it in a single scene and can take longer to get you used to their vision. Two exceptions: many of Pauline Baynes' illustrations for Narnia seemed just right, and the Shire in the LOTR movies was immediately, and continues to be, very satisfying to me.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Actually, when I was nine or so, we went to our Christmas dinner, and my cool-but-wierd D&D-playing uncle (who incidentally, also formed his own grunge rock band, went to Poland for a couple of years, and is just generally interesting...) bought along a LOTR board game.

It kinda ticked me off because everyone else knew the characters and I had only read the Hobbit, wondering why in the world they were trying to destroy the Ring, and who the hell Frodo was. And that spurred me a bit to read about Frodo as all four of my uncles told me a watered-down version of the story.

I started LOTR when I was nine, and only finished it a year later. (Phew!) And of course many years later NOW I know a heap more about Middle-Earth than them. I can still brag about how I know what 'Gondolin' means in three different languages... hehehehe...

[davem]

It means lake of light - hope that restores some of the mystery, Davem...
...and I've found a much more mysterious picture for you, too....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkvam/128213508/

It looks wonderful, & I'd like to go there. Mind you, I've always wanted to visit Iceland (though I might be disappointed when I got there, because I have this 'fantasy' Iceland in my mind). I wonder why its called lake of light?

I spent an hour last night googling away (they can't touch you for it, missus!) & found a couple of pics of the same place, Stetind in Northern Norway. First is a photo:http://earth.boisestate.edu/home/cjnorth/images/stetind2.jpg
Second is a painting of the same place http://www.artsmia.org/mirror-of-nature/nordic-art-detail.cfm?nor_art_cat=8&lng=2.

I think looking at the first one would make you want to visit Norway. Looking at the second would perhaps make you want to visit Middle-earth - if that makes sense. The first image isn't as 'magical' as the second, because while the first shows a beautiful place, its a place you can get on a plane & visit, while the second image has a power, a terrifying beauty, which makes you catch your breath - the mountain seems not to belong in the world of the foreground of the picture, with its gently rolling waves lapping against the rocks. Its as if the fog had parted & revealed another reality, bigger, more mythic. I think that's what happened to me, all those years back - suddenly, for a moment, in a sketch show of all things, the fog parted & I glimpsed something much bigger, something which I had always, on some level, known was there.

[Lalaith]

The first link, the photo, looks beautiful...just like the Lonely Mountain. The second, Middle-earth one, won't open. :confused:

[davem]

The first link, the photo, looks beautiful...just like the Lonely Mountain. The second, Middle-earth one, won't open. :confused:

I know - site is slow. Try this - right at bottom of page http://homepage.mac.com/federoncik/federoncikh/schede/montidelmale.html

[Lalaith]

Fabulous...yet quite scary.

[davem]

Fabulous...yet quite scary.

That's what I thought at first. Perhaps rather 'awesome', or 'sublime' even. Imagine standing & looking out across the lake into the foggy sky, not knowing the mountain was there. Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.

We can see it in characters like Bilbo & Sam, yearning to see Elves & Mountains. Strange, terrifying things (for a Hobbit), but symbols, as much as anything else, of a larger world.

[Lalaith]

Yes, and also perhaps of the mariners yearning to glimpse Tol Eressea and Valinor.

[Lalwendë]

That's a bit like the odd feeling I got when we were in Scotland in March. One evening we went for a walk along the cliffs north of Portpatrick and the sun was setting. Across the sea you could see mountains and hills in Ulster, some closer and some more distant, and a really eerie looking tower. This will have been a lighthouse, but from that distance it could have been anything. It was exactly like looking at the tower of Avallone on Tol Eressea, with the distant Valinor further off in the background.

I tried to take photographs but I don't think they have captured the oddness of this scene at all well, and we had to stay and look at it until it disappeared. Very odd indeed, especially as it was so utterly silent apart from the wind and the birds.

Then at night, you can see across an inky black sea just lots of little lights, and several lighthouse beams, with the stars brilliantly bright above.

[Rulavi]

Fabulous...yet quite scary.
That's what I thought at first. Perhaps rather 'awesome', or 'sublime' even. Imagine standing & looking out across the lake into the foggy sky, not knowing the mountain was there. Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.

We can see it in characters like Bilbo & Sam, yearning to see Elves & Mountains. Strange, terrifying things (for a Hobbit), but symbols, as much as anything else, of a larger world.

This discussion is ringing all sorts of bells with me.

As I've thought about what "awe" is, it is clear to me that it (paradoxically, if you like) includes generous doses of what we tend to think of as antithetical ingredients: namely the two you mention in the quotes above —fear/terror and love/desire. You called it a "desire to know more", Davem, and there's something right about that. But it is not a desire to know as our culture desires to know, a Sarumanian desire to subjugate and control and use through our science/knowledge. It is rather a desire to experience, a willingness to be overwhelmed by and caught up in, what we love and fear. "Perfect love casts out fear", or perhaps transforms it into the joy that is awe, but, a love that knows no fear because it does not even respect what is loved is a pretty shallow love. Awestruck love is totally humble when it is not feeling frankly terrified.

I think awe, although it is in my view central to true humanity, is a very dangerous and subversive attitude or emotion for the values of our culture. It is inherently contradictory to the self-sufficient, I'm-as-good-as-you-are, I-demand-my-rights, I-will-not-bow-down, lese-majestic stance so prevalent in our society and so encouraged by our political philosophy. By nature it leads to a kind of worship of what is high above us, while our culture loudly insists there is nothing high above us in that way. We may be permitted to feel awe if we want to or get a kick out of it (there's freedom of religion, after all), but we must not believe, much less say out loud or insist, that it corresponds to anything real, or ought to be felt by everyone. The "fear of the Lord" which "is the beginning of Wisdom" is precisely what the wisdom of our world cannot stand.

(fwiw, it was the culturally voguish debunking of awe that prompted C.S. Lewis to write "The Abolition of Man", his major contention being that such debunking turns us into sub-human "men without chests".)

Someone asked earlier in the thread if Tolkien and Lewis were trying to "pre-baptise" (as they would spell it :) ) us for the same thing. I think they were. They were both Christians, of course, and believed the Reality they wanted us to respond rightly to is ultimately God in Christ. But much more than most Christians, I think, they saw and loved the fearsome beauty of that Reality, and saw that fearsomeness and beauty wonderfully reflected down through the many levels of creation below the One. And they talked to each other for years about these sorts of things and discussed their writings, including LOTR, in the light of them. In their experience the desire for the Awesome Reality was often wakened through mythology, most definitely including the kind of mythology they aspired to write. The notion of pre-baptism of the imagination was [first?] used by Lewis to describe the effect on him of George MacDonald’s myths. Lewis speaks of "the Numinous", and has Merlin (in That Hideous Strength) speak of even the knowledge of the existence of Numinor and the True West as dangerous knowledge. (Numinor, as the preface makes clear, is Tolkien's Númenor.) Narnia fans may remember the bedragoned Eustace’s encounter with the Lion: “I was terribly afraid of it. You may think that, being a dragon, I could have knocked any lion out easily enough. But it wasn’t that kind of fear. I wasn’t afraid of it eating me, I was just afraid of it--if you can understand.”

Lewis' essay/sermon "The Weight of Glory" (which is one piece of prose I can hardly read without wanting to weep and shout--it has the same effect on me as seeing Saturn through a telescope) is full of this theme. Forgive (/enjoy) the long quote:

[following discussion of Glory as "fame" or "recognition", being acknowledged and accepted into the heart of things] "this brings me to the other sense of glory—glory as brightness, splendour, luminosity. We are to shine as the sun, we are to be given the Morning Star. I think I begin to see what it means. In one way, of course, God has given us the Morning Star already: you can go and enjoy the gift on many fine mornings if you get up early enough. What more, you may ask, do we want? Ah, but we want so much more […] We do not want merely to see beauty, though, God knows, even that is bounty enough. We want something else which can hardly be put into words--to be united with the beauty we see, to pass into it, to receive it into ourselves, to bathe in it, to become part of it. … That is why the poets tell us such lovely falsehoods. They talk as if the west wind could really sweep into a human soul; but it can't. They tell us that "beauty born of murmuring sound" will pass into a human face; but it won't. Or, not yet. For if we take the imagery of Scripture seriously, if we believe that God will one day give us the Morning Star and cause us to put on the splendour of the sun, then we may surmise that both the ancient myths and the modern poetry, so false as history, may be very near the truth as prophecy. At present we are on the outside of the world, the wrong side of the door. We discern the freshness and purity of morning, but they do not make us fresh and pure. We cannot mingle with the splendours we see. But all the leaves of the New Testament are rustling with the rumour that it will not always be so. Some day, God willing, we shall get in. When human souls have become as perfect in voluntary obedience as the inanimate creation is in its lifeless obedience, then they will put on its glory, or rather that greater glory of which Nature is only the first sketch. ... We are summoned to pass in through Nature, beyond her, into that splendour which she fitfully reflects.”

I think Lewis and Tolkien hoped their works might a pre-baptism for that, not of course for Lewis’ words, but for the Reality they believed lay behind them.

[Rulavi]

We must have read different fantasy novels ;) . I usually have had the opposite experience: if there's a book that speaks to me, it's despite the cover (and any other illustrations) not because of it. And often in such cases it's the content that's "beautiful, mysterious & evocative"; the pictures fail because they are too (and wrongly) specific. Movies similarly, natch, though it's somewhat easier for a movie: it doesn't need to capture it in a single scene and can take longer to get you used to their vision. Two exceptions: many of Pauline Baynes' illustrations for Narnia seemed just right, and the Shire in the LOTR movies was immediately, and continues to be, very satisfying to me.

Another case I should have mentioned: Howard Pyle, where the pictures are at least as good as the text.

[davem]

Can't help thinking of Simone d'Ardenne's reminiscence, where she said to Tolkien: `You broke the veil, didn't you, and passed through?' and she adds that he `readily admitted' having done so."

It seems she was referring to language, but Tolkien may have understood her question differently. 'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it. There is an awesome realm beyond, & our own smallness is revealed to us by what we are shown. Yet, as Lewis states, it is not a place that is forever denied to us - we are given that glimpse because whatever it is that lies beyond is somewhere we have a right to be - if I understand him. The original glimpse is brief - we may even miss it, but if we are open to what we see the next glimpse may be longer & clearer.

Managed to find a better pic of the painting ('Breaking the Veil' as I shall call it from now on) Hope it works

http://www.artsmia.org/mirror-of-nature/images/e/cat_008_49917.jpg

[Rulavi]

'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it. There is an awesome realm beyond, & our own smallness is revealed to us by what we are shown. Yet, as Lewis states, it is not a place that is forever denied to us - we are given that glimpse because whatever it is that lies beyond is somewhere we have a right to be - if I understand him. The original glimpse is brief - we may even miss it, but if we are open to what we see the next glimpse may be longer & clearer.

Managed to find a better pic of the painting ('Breaking the Veil' as I shall call it from now on) Hope it works


Another Lewis tie-in: the whole story of his Pilgrim's Regress centers on a boy drawn by ineffable longing to a beautiful Island that he glimpses far in the West. He abandons his native Puritania, with the frowning Landlord's Castle overlooking it from across the river to the east, and travels westward in search of the Island. When he finally stands on the far sea-shore and can see the Island clearly across the waters, he realizes it is the Landlord's Castle seen from the other side, and he travels back around the world to cross the river to get there. A rather Chestertonian conceit grafted onto something like the Breaking-The-Veil vision. (With a lot of undoubtedly clever but often esoteric and obscure allegory and satire grafted onto that. Quite unlike Lewis' other writings.)

(Lewis & Tolkien, I'm pretty sure, would say not that we have a right to be there, but that through the Mercy we may be given that right.)

[davem]

(Lewis & Tolkien, I'm pretty sure, would not say that we have a right to be there, but that through the Mercy we may be given that right.)

Hmmm... well, I'd say it was our birthright, but is ours to accept or reject. But then, I don't share their faith....

[Durelin]

I think my "pre-baptising" sort of deal for my love of Middle-earth and fantasy worlds in general was the way I used to play when I was younger. Actually, my dad used to play with my brother and I quite often, and there were times when we'd do humongous (at least as I remember them) "set ups" that would spread through our living room or the downstairs room, or sometimes over both. We'd combine all sorts of toys, like Playmobil and Legos and Star Wars action figures, or sometimes Barbie dolls and large super hero figures (Barbie was always taller than the super heroes, though, which I guess might be why I hate it when women feel like they should be with men who are taller than them and when guys get all weird about tall women...well, that and I was taller than all the boys my age until they finally hit their growth spurts in late junior high and high school...but anyway...). My dad would even make things himself to look like various scenery. I'm sure it was all incredibly simple but it was so real to my brother and I back then.

And we'd...have adventures. Those "set ups" became little worlds to me, and I played as a character or characters, as a little Playmobil person or as Johnny Quest or Mara Jade or someone, and I loved being that character in that world. And I guess as we get older our worlds need to get a little more elaborate than Legos and Styrofoam and such.

I suppose that just the way I played as a child is behind my love of fantasy and particularly of such vastness as Middle-earth (and of roleplaying).

That was probably more information about my life than you needed, but it's all memorable stuff....

[drigel]

nice thread :)

For me way early was Tales of Alladin and Sinbad. RE Howard (Conan) a little later... cinema would have to be The 300 Spartans. A total cheese movie (for even back then really), but there I was in the backyard - trashcan lid for a shield and a broom for a spear..... :rolleyes:

[Rulavi]

I think my "pre-baptising" sort of deal for my love of Middle-earth and fantasy worlds in general was the way I used to play when I was younger. Actually, my dad used to play with my brother and I quite often, and there were times when we'd do humongous (at least as I remember them) "set ups" that would spread through our living room or the downstairs room, or sometimes over both. We'd combine all sorts of toys,

Right! I suppose most of us were thinking of more literary precursors to ME, but this sort of thing was certainly important for me and probably a good many others. Thank you for bringing it to mind!

[Rulavi]

Can't help thinking of Simone d'Ardenne's reminiscence, where she said to Tolkien: `You broke the veil, didn't you, and passed through?' and she adds that he `readily admitted' having done so."

It seems she was referring to language, but Tolkien may have understood her question differently. 'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it.

If you think about it, "breaking" the veil is an odd collocation of words, a kind of mixing of metaphors. "Breaking through the veil" is better, perhaps? But even there you expect more of a solid barrier than a yielding one. Frodo didn't "break through" Shelob's webs, but had to cut his way through. "Parting", or if violence or impatience is needed, "tearing" or "rending" the veil?

The picture, to me, is more of a parting of the veil/clouds: the viewer is, in that sense, passive (though in another sense gloriously participative). If any rending is going on, it is someone else who is doing it.

Actually, you'd already said it that way, Davem: Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.

[Rulavi]

Hmmm... well, I'd say it was our birthright, but is ours to accept or reject. But then, I don't share their faith....

Yes, our birthright, but a birthright we have spurned and lost. The Good News is that it is offered to us again.

[Sir Kohran]

There was this old computer game, called Asghan The Dragon Slayer. Basically, it involves a big tough warrior with a big sword (what else?) going around this enemy island killing various baddies to eventually kill his evil uncle, the sorcerer Morghan, who had killed Asghan's father. Although it sounds very generic hack'n'slash (and frankly it is) I enjoyed it a lot as a kid, and now I see it as my first real introduction to the fantasy genre, and also to Middle-Earth itself - looking back on it now, one of Asghan's friends was called 'Capon the hobbit', he drank 'elvish drink' to keep his health up, many of the monsters were called orcs, and here's the big one - the company that made it was called 'Silmarils' :eek:

That game was simple and nothing very big, but it made me want to do more with this wonderful, magical world I had found and Tolkien was the real deal that it led to.

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

Excellent Question. I would have loved to have discovered that Norse mythology had primed me for Tolkien, just has it had originally inspired Tolkien himself.
Note: "inspired" = in - spirit = indwelling spirit
But no, yet just as comically what primed me for Tolkien was old Godzilla movies.
The image of the dragon, you see.
I did not explore Norse mythology until much later, and actually, have rejected my former religion in favor of Wotanism. My place in Vahalla is assured. I am a Warrior of the Rainbow Bridge, Acoltye of Hiemdoll, and Bezerker of Wotan, Wielder of the Divine Bolts. :mad:

[Lalwendë]

I used to love the Japanese Godzilla cartoons they showed on kids telly in the 70s. Of course Godzilla was an awesome goodie, as he's supposed to be (despite the Hollywood abomination of the nineties which made me really cross) in those so he may well have primed me for dragons too.

Then again, in the 70s there was also Ivor The Engine by the amazing Oliver Postgate, which had kindly Welsh dragons.

And yet again, there was Oliver Postgate's weird Northern/Icelandic myth Noggin The Nog, which I also loved. This is essential viewing for any Tolkien fan, as I've never yet met a fan who didn't like it (if they'd seen it!).

[The Might]

After reading Lalwende's post I suddently (don't really know why) remembered of something else.
As a kid I very much enjoyed watching Ivanhoe and Robin Hood cartoons. I really liked the whole chivalry, medieval thing, and I think that "prepared" me in a way for Tolkien's works.

[Lalwendë]

After reading Lalwende's post I suddently (don't really know why) remembered of something else.
As a kid I very much enjoyed watching Ivanhoe and Robin Hood cartoons. I really liked the whole chivalry, medieval thing, and I think that "prepared" me in a way for Tolkien's works.

What about Robin Of Sherwood? I'll bet that inspired some! For me, it came along post-Tolkien, and I was entranced by it all, convinced this was the closest thing to Tolkien we'd ever get on the screen. And it's still a fantastic Robin now!

[Bêthberry]

So I was thinking. CS Lewis once said that his intention in the Narnia books was to 'pre-baptise' children's imaginations - they would first read the Narnia books, & when they later encountered Christianity they would be in some way prepared for what they would encounter in the Christian story. What he meant, I think, was that Jesus would remind them of Aslan & so he wouldn't seem so 'strange' & unfamiliar to them. Perhaps he also meant that the Narnia stories would create a 'longing' in them for a 'bigger' story.


Okay, so I'm going to have to admit up front that Lewis' Narnia is not as interesting to me as Tolkien's Middle-earth. That said, what intrigues me is this idea that a story has to prepare children's imaginations for another story. (I don't think I'm taking this topic off-topic, just wondering about a different tangant.)

Baptism in its most literal sense involves a washing or submersion in water, a purification marking entrance into witness or membership in the community. For the sake of the original quotations from Lewis, I'll limit my thoughts to Christian ideas about the ritual.

Now, traditionally baptism means the washing away or remission of sins in preparation for receiving Christ. What sins could Lewis imagine his story would be washing away? Or was he merely being allegorical (as was his wont) in suggesting some kind of precursive experience with purification which would enable children (in this case) to perceive the holy story? Or was he thinking of Catholic ideas of baptism, a desire to be part of the Church founded by Christ?

I guess what I am getting at is this idea that one needs to be cleansed of error and mistake, prepared to accept the greater meaning of a fulsome text, whether it is Lewis or Tolkien.

So, first of all, could there be texts which in fact prepare us not to understand and accept those of Lewis and Tolkien? Is our reading such that we have to be purged of some of our tastes and familiar favourites before we can appreciate Narnia or Middle-earth? What are these texts? Are there truly sins in reading that must be purified?

Secondly, what does it mean to hold secular texts as needing rituals before they are fully appreciated? Why can't the books themselves reach out to us? Why would they be dependent upon precursor texts?

Now, Lewis was not a Catholic, but Tolkien was. Catholic doctrine says that we must be cleansed of the taint of original sin before we can enter the Christian community. Is this a concept in keeping with Tolkien's Legendarium? Do readers really have to experience a rebirth or forgiveness of error in order to receive Tolkien's story?

Forgive me if I am being pedantic here, but I think that's a trait Tolkien himself would have allowed his readers.

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

Do you need to get washed up to take a bath?
Worse yet, do you need to clean the water afterwards?
Tolkiens morality is fundamentally different from Christianity in several key pionts, I am very interested in your pedantic enquiry, and would like to try to match your pedantry, but it deserves a topic unto itself. And it should be long indeed. Many pages and everyone should have now, or should begin presently, to form a thoughtful opinion about it.

[Bêthberry]

Do you need to get washed up to take a bath?
Worse yet, do you need to clean the water afterwards?


Very funny, Neithan Tol Turambar. I've never been asked if I am part of the great unwashed before. Usually people just address the points of my posts and my discussion.

;)

Oh, and, by the by, my pedantry pales before that of the illustrious Squatter and the highly English lettered davem and the astute Aiwendil, so perhaps you can set yourself a higher bar.

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

Wow! You have alot of Posts!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem -

This is an enjoyable thread, and I can definitely point to personal things that I felt "prepared me" to accept and love Tolkien.

The part of Middle-earth I first connected with was Tolkien's depiction of trees and the land, the Shire and Lorien especially. LotR became a crash course in appreciating the natural world. All the rest--characters, medieval texts, and the depths of the Legendarium-- only came later.

The reason I could see and appreciate that natural beauty was that I spent a chunk of my time in the sixties protesting environmental issues and rambling in the countryside through the Appalachian Mountains, along the shores of the Great Lakes, and then in south Wales and the West Country of England. When I read Tolkien, I could feel the grass poking up between my toes.

Yet, to be honest, when I first read this thread and saw the word "pre-baptism", part of me reacted the way Bethberry did.....

So, first of all, could there be texts which in fact prepare us not to understand and accept those of Lewis and Tolkien? Is our reading such that we have to be purged of some of our tastes and familiar favourites before we can appreciate Narnia or Middle-earth? What are these texts? Are there truly sins in reading that must be purified?

I've always had this problem with Lewis. It's not just a matter of one thing preparing us for something else. And it goes beyond Bethberry's question of texts (though that is definitely part of it). I've always felt that Lewis is asking us to strip off a chunk of who we are, in effect to purge some of our "modern" tastes in order to comply with his perceptions of what the ideal reader should be. I get less of that sense from Tolkien. He seems to paint with a wider and less dogmatic brush. But even with Tolkien I sometimes catch just a whiff of that.

I remember once reading a passage --- can't say specifically where it came from -- in which Tolkien and Lewis were talking about themselves as the final "true" remnents of "Western Civilization"....the fact that they were two grand old men who approached texts and ideas from a different vantage point than the readers who would come after them and that meant they had a very different way of looking at things. I'm not even talking about Christianity here, though that could be part of it. Rather they were talking about an acceptance and appreciation for "traditional" western culture and having a certain kind of education. At the time, the discussion rubbed me the wrong way a bit and I still have that image in my head when someone talks about somehow "cleansing " us to prepare for something else.

Probably a crazy reaction. I don't know if anyone else has had a response like that.

[davem]

Bethberry: Lewis was not aiming to teach children Christianity with the Narnia books. He wanted to introduce similar ideas that would make it easier for children to accept Christianity: what he called "a sort of pre-baptism of the child's imagination." (George Sayer, Jack: A Life of C S Lewis) Article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/people/cslewis_9.shtml

So Lewis seems to have meant something along the lines of 'preparation for baptism'. I'm reminded of something Tolkien said about his stories being aimed at those readers with a 'still undarkened heart' (or something along those lines). 'Purged of the gross' also seems to come into it. Tolkien is writing for those whose hearts are still undarkened, & I suppose those 'surviving' in that state will respond to any glimpse of light they see.

[Lalwendë]

It's not enough these days to just find something beautiful. It all has to have a purpose. It's so utilitarian and depressing.

That's the problem which makes so many people hate Tolkien and fail to appreciate what he created. They feel that what they must read must mean something, that their spare time was not wasted in merely enjoying an adventure. And that's what sticks in my throat about Lewis. His work has fallen prey to the modern need for utilitarianism as it has to have this 'higher purpose'. Ugh. I knew there was something iffy and stilted about his work when I was trying to read it and then I found out what it was and it was like a revelation - of the kind he would not have expected. Steeped in fairy tales as a child, I was well aware of what 'magic' looked and smelled like and it smelled a bit 'off' in Narnia.

But Neil Gaiman says it better:

For good or ill the religious allegory, such as it was, went entirely over my head, and it was not until I was about twelve that I found myself realising that there were Certain Parallels. Most people get it at the Stone Table; I got it when it suddenly occurred to me that the story of the events that occurred to Saint Paul on the road to Damascus was the dragoning of Eustace Scrubb all over again. I was personally offended: I felt that an author, whom I had trusted, had had a hidden agenda. I had nothing against religion, or religion in fiction -- I had bought (in the school bookshop) and loved The Screwtape Letters, and was already dedicated to G.K. Chesterton. My upset was, I think, that it made less of Narnia for me, it made it less interesting a thing, less interesting a place.

What Tolkien produced was a work of Art, comparable to Ulysses. It's a complex interplay of plot and structure and words, like one huge poem. It mystifies us modern folk who are used to purpose and meaning and definition and all those kinds of restrictive things. We can't just sit back and enjoy the trip. So we have to find some meaning to define it all by, when there isn't one. Even Tolkien himself struggled to assign some kind of 'meaning' to his texts (often I think, influenced by people like Lewis) but from all his contradictory statements its clear that there wasn't one beyond wanting to discover 'what really happened'. It's a story. That's it.

That's the essential joy of Tolkien. You open this book and enter this other world immediately. It doesn't exist to teach you anything, it is just there. Like Tom Bombadil, it just 'is'. That makes you feel as though when we close the book, that world goes on without us, regardless of us, in spite of us. It's real because it's not made for us, it's going to exist without us.

All you need to love Tolkien is an open mind, one that's open to magic and Art and adventure. One that doesn't expect any revelations or lessons. That's what a 'still undarkened heart' is.

[The Might]

Lalwende...I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
Is this a movie you are talking about...Robin of Sherwood?
If yes, I think I might have seen it, but I'm not so sure.

[Lalwendë]

Lalwende...I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
Is this a movie you are talking about...Robin of Sherwood?
If yes, I think I might have seen it, but I'm not so sure.

I have found you a linky: Robin of Sherwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Of_Sherwood)

It was on TV in the mid-80s. The first series starred Michael Praed, and later ones Jason Connery as Robin after Praed left to join the cast of Dynasty (the fool). You'll also find Ray Winstone as Will Scarlett! It was a huge hit and remains a huge cult. Written by Richard Carpenter who also did the seminal Catweazle (about an 11th century wizard travelling in time). Clannad did the music. It manages to combine genuine British folklore with adventure and peril, and it can also be really funny (not least looking at all those 80s mullets!). It had a mystical feel to it and had a lot of really scary moments - The Swords of Wayland springs to mind as one of the best, with its scary witches and ancient British mythology.

There are loads of clips on YouTube! And if tempted its often repeated on satellite channels and the DVDs are available. I could watch it over and over.

Robin in this is what a Ranger is to me. ;)

Watch it if you can, it's awesome!

[Bêthberry]

I've always had this problem with Lewis. It's not just a matter of one thing preparing us for something else. And it goes beyond Bethberry's question of texts (though that is definitely part of it). I've always felt that Lewis is asking us to strip off a chunk of who we are, in effect to purge some of our "modern" tastes in order to comply with his perceptions of what the ideal reader should be. I get less of that sense from Tolkien. He seems to paint with a wider and less dogmatic brush. But even with Tolkien I sometimes catch just a whiff of that.



Quote:
Lewis was not aiming to teach children Christianity with the Narnia books. He wanted to introduce similar ideas that would make it easier for children to accept Christianity: what he called "a sort of pre-baptism of the child's imagination." (George Sayer, Jack: A Life of C S Lewis)

. . . .

So Lewis seems to have meant something along the lines of 'preparation for baptism'. I'm reminded of something Tolkien said about his stories being aimed at those readers with a 'still undarkened heart' (or something along those lines). 'Purged of the gross' also seems to come into it. Tolkien is writing for those whose hearts are still undarkened, & I suppose those 'surviving' in that state will respond to any glimpse of light they see.

Okay, so what I am seeing here is a certain condition or predisposition. You know, this begins to sound suspiciously like predestination of a literary kind.

Augustine, Calvin, Lewis, Tolkien . . . brrrrrr!