Seven: Four From Five or One?

[alatar]

What happened to the Seven Dwarven Rings? We have this:
"He knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine, for they are accounted for."
"Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed."

Seven Rings of Power were created for the ensnarement of the Dwarves; four were destroyed and three were with Sauron at the end of the Third Age.


"The Seven are lost to us - if Balin has not found the Ring of Thrór, which was the last; naught has been heard of it since Thrór perished in Moria. Indeed I may now reveal that it was partly in hope to find that ring that Balin went away."
"Balin will find no ring in Moria, said Gandalf. Thrór gave it to Thráin his son, but not Thráin to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thráin in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late."

Smaug doesn't get Thrór's Ring; Sauron aka the Necromancer reclaims it in the pits of Dol Guldur from Thráin, although this isn't known to the Dwarves until Gandalf informs them during the Council of Elrond. So the Dwarves had some knowledge of the disposition of the Seven, though that knowledge wasn’t complete. Although the secretive folk may not have announced to the rest of the world where the Seven may be stowed, seemingly some Dwarves knew.


"It is said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for it was made by Sauron himself."

A dragon could, in theory, melt/consume a Ring of Power, excepting the One.


Regardless, we have four that aren't reclaimed, and if Sauron can't find something*, you can pretty sure that it's no longer available. This means that four were indeed melted or consumed by Dragons. I can't see the Dwarves feeding the Rings to the Dragons, but more likely the Dragons biting and eating the five-fingered hand that bore the Ring - that or completely cooking the Dwarf that held the Ring on one of its five fingers (assuming that Dwarves have five digits). The Dragon would then have to destroy the Ring completely, as a Dwarf wouldn’t leave the valuable item lying about - or sit on it like a hen to keep Durin’s folk from having it. If it ate the Ring, I would assume that the Dwarves would make a go of performing some type of medical procedure via an axe to see if the Ring remained with the gullet of the Worm (assuming that Dragons had gullets).

Also it can be assumed that these four Rings weren't born by your average run-of-the-mine Dwarf, but some Dwarf-lord with quadra-forked beard.


So, to recap: Four rings, four Dwarf-lords, four Dragons of some repute. Why then do we not read anything about the massive battles that obviously must have taken place in each of these four cases?



*Unless hidden by a witless hobbit.

[Bêthberry]

"He knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine, for they are accounted for."


Seven of Nine was assimilated.

Oh wait. Wrong story.

Possibly the fire of the dragons was so strong that not only were the rings vapourised but even the paper upon which the story was written was singed.

On the other hand, perhaps CT has more stories to bring out.

[alatar]

Seven of Nine was assimilated.
I must respectfully disagree. Annika Hansen was assimilated; Seven of Nine was reassimilated by the Federation's Catsuit cabal.


Possibly the fire of the dragons was so strong that not only were the rings vapourised but even the paper upon which the story was written was singed.
Borg = Bolg? Are you saying that Azog and kin get a chapter, but four Dragon battles are of little worth, mirth and content?


On the other hand, perhaps CT has more stories to bring out.
One can only hope. "Florin SmokingFingers and the Battle of Four Dragons..."

[the phantom]

Did Kuru give you permission to start this thread?

[alatar]

Did Kuru give you permission to start this thread?
I believe that I filled out the appropriate form, and am awaiting his input.

[Bêthberry]

I believe that I filled out the appropriate form, and am awaiting his input.

But was that in triplicate and did you fill out the cheque yet?


Regardless, we have four that aren't reclaimed, and if Sauron can't find something*, you can pretty sure that it's no longer available. This means that four were indeed melted or consumed by Dragons.

Well, from what I recall, dwarven women were pretty hard to find, so I wouldn't be surprised if the rings were hidden with them. Piercings might have been quite popular with them--something which those beards deflected.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, to recap: Four rings, four Dwarf-lords, four Dragons of some repute. Why then do we not read anything about the massive battles that obviously must have taken place in each of these four cases?

I think there are quite many important things we are not told about, for example there must have been many important battles between Gondor&Harad or Rhun and we are told nothing precise about them. Also, counting in the fact that Dwarves were pretty secretive folk, in the chronicles of Men/Hobbits there couldn't be much about it. After all, Gandalf only knew about the Ring because he was... well, Wise, and Thráin still repeated "last of the Seven, last of the Seven" when he met him. Otherwise, I am pretty sure the Dwarves would be more quiet about their heritage, and even more about their doom. Also, if all the Ring-dinners took parts somewhere in Withered Heath, and were somewhat alike the Lonely Mountain incident, and, in contrary to the Lonely Mountain incident, no one survived or escaped, even the Dwarves themselves could have had trouble in reconstructing the incident.

There were lots of dragons in the North in those days, and gold was probably getting scarce up there, with the dwarves flying south or getting killed, and all the general waste and destruction that dragons make going from bad to worse.
And so it seems, there were many dragon incidents, and no one bothers with long narrations. "Some dragon came and ate Dáin I." The fact that there were two hundred other Dwarves around at that time doesn't concern anyone.

[The Might]

Of the original possesors of the Rings we know very little.
According to Dwarf legend, the first of the Seven to be forged had already been given by the Elves to Durin III, so Sauron could not find it. But Sauron took the remaining six Rings and distributed them to other Dwarf lords.

Firstly, we don't even know who these lords were, though it is in my opinion a tempting idea to think they belonged to each of the other six houses, since this way, Sauron could corrupt more at once. But, of course, this is only speculation.

But the possessors of the Ring did not display it or speak of it, and they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed. Some thought that it had remained in Khazad-dûm, in the secret tombs of the kings, if they had not been discovered and plundered; but among the kindred of Durin's Heir it was believed (wrongly) that Thrór had worn it when he rashly returned there. What then had become of it they did not know. As we see, it would have been hard to even know when who had these Rings, even if you belonged to his own folk.
It could be their possessors had wandered off driven by the need for more gold, more treasure and were lost in the wilderness and then attacked by Dragons.
I don't think we have to necessarily think of large battles against dragons, and if some did take place, they might have taken place in far away lands, as Legate already said.

[alatar]

I think there are quite many important things we are not told about, for example there must have been many important battles between Gondor&Harad or Rhun and we are told nothing precise about them.
Nothing precise and nothing at all aren't as close as we may think.


Also, if all the Ring-dinners took parts somewhere in Withered Heath, and were somewhat alike the Lonely Mountain incident, and, in contrary to the Lonely Mountain incident, no one survived or escaped, even the Dwarves themselves could have had trouble in reconstructing the incident.
We did read about the Dwarves taking on the Dragon in the Dagor Bragollach, and they weren't fighting for a Ring there. Sure, maybe it was the elves that reported that event, but couldn't some elf, eagle, raven, thrush or other being have reported the fall of a Dwarven Lord under the foot of a Worm?

You'd think that someone would have survived, and, of course, that has me thinking of any event in ME history where there were no survivors ("If a hero falls alone in a forest..."). Thorin never lets Smaug have a pass, though no lord or Ring was lost in the Erebor incident.

Methinks that given a few hundreds years, Tolkien would have filled these tales in as well - and Peter Jackson could have filmed them. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Bêthberry]

There's several reasons why I've been fascinated by the dwarves: first, their creation story and second, the absence of much story about them. (And another one too, that derives from the nature of their language, but that's less germane here.) I suppose I get bored with all the elves and their nostalgia because they've left substantial evidence and much narrative about them. But of those who pass without long memorial, well, there's so much more to imagine, poignantly.

I think alatar is right about the potential for wonderful dragon stories. After all, we read in OFS Tolkien's confession of his great longing for stories about dragons and so we can imagine that there would be a strong attraction there: his imagination was with dragons.

But there is a problem, too, in writing too much about the destruction of rings. If the One Ring and its end in Mount Doom is the ultimate story, would 'precursor' stories merely take away some of the . . . fire . . . of the final destruction? Then, how would one maintain narrative interest in a back story--four of them--of the other rings' destruction? How many times can a ring be melted before it becomes impossible to maintain interest? (Now, I say this and remember that Scheherazade kept up her storytelling skills over a good many nights.)

And I suppose another quandry might be the place of dragons in Middle-earth. Do they belong to the lore of TH or do they belong to the less fanciful LotR? Recently an Old English scholar known for his admiration of Tolkien complained in his blog about talking foxes in Lot R. How would dragons have to be handled to satisfy such wits?

I can imagine an ironic tale about a dragon's lust for the ring, only for him--are dragons all male?--to be cheated of his prize at the end by his unknowingly destroying it with his fire.

On the other hand, the elves were given three rings and those were not destroyed until they lost their power with the destruction of The One. Why were the dwarven rings lost? Were the dwarves, with their greater resistance to the power of the One, able to understand something which the elves could not?

[alatar]

But there is a problem, too, in writing too much about the destruction of rings. If the One Ring and its end in Mount Doom is the ultimate story, would 'precursor' stories merely take away some of the . . . fire . . . of the final destruction? Then, how would one maintain narrative interest in a back story--four of them--of the other rings' destruction? How many times can a ring be melted before it becomes impossible to maintain interest? (Now, I say this and remember that Scheherazade kept up her storytelling skills over a good many nights.)
That makes sense. Just how many dragon stories can we have? One everyone knows; the other everyone may be reading (or rereading) soon. Still, it might be helpful to read a one-liner about either the fall of a dwarven stonghold because of a dragon's interest, or the fall of a dragon due to a dwarven vendetta. And it's not like the Sil isn't cyclical.

"The Dwarven capitol of Southwestern Khand, ZiggyMarleyHall, overrun by DepecheMode the Goth."


And I suppose another quandry might be the place of dragons in Middle-earth. Do they belong to the lore of TH or do they belong to the less fanciful LotR? Recently an Old English scholar known for his admiration of Tolkien complained in his blog about talking foxes in Lot R. How would dragons have to be handled to satisfy such wits?
Smaug and Glaurung talked, and it didn't come off as does the fox, which stood out bombadilicly. Again, the lengthy story would be appreciated, but the blurb would be welcome as well.


On the other hand, the elves were given three rings and those were not destroyed until they lost their power with the destruction of The One. Why were the dwarven rings lost? Were the dwarves, with their greater resistance to the power of the One, able to understand something which the elves could not?
The dwarves knew that sometimes...it's better to burn up than to fade away.

[Lalwendë]

When Tolkien tells us that some of the Dwarves' rings were 'consumed by dragons' it could be taken one of two ways: they may have been eaten by the Dragons, or they may have been 'consumed' by Dragonfire as they were burnt up and destroyed. That second idea is very exciting!

Now, Dragons love treasure as much as Dwarves do, and the Rings brought to their bearers even more treasure - each was associated with a hoarde. Given that the Dwarves and the Dragons shared much of the North between them the chances of conflict must have been high. That some of the Dragons 'consumed' some of the Dwarves' rings must mean that there were independent Dragons, free of the control of Sauron and hence not terribly worried about destroying his Rings of Power in order to get their claws on that treasure (does this mean there were also female Dragons and Dragon babies?).

It conjours up all kinds of possibilities for truly Northern myths - tales of Dwarf Lords and their hoardes of treasure, glittering mountains of gold and gemstones hidden under the mountains; their power and wealth increased by the Rings they held, but their minds not fully corrupted. Then into the caverns came the Wyrms and the Drakes, some bold and brassy, some small and sneaky and concealing their literal firepower. There would be battles of course, and maybe at times stealth attacks, the clever Drake coming across the Dwarf Lord sitting proudly on guard outside the vault housing his hoarde and just blasting him to dust, having worked out that he needs to destroy the Ring in order to get hold of that hoarde.

:cool:

And another thing that fascinates me...Why did Sauron want his Dwarf rings back?

[alatar]

When Tolkien tells us that some of the Dwarves' rings were 'consumed by dragons' it could be taken one of two ways: they may have been eaten by the Dragons, or they may have been 'consumed' by Dragonfire as they were burnt up and destroyed. That second idea is very exciting!
I guess we should assume both possiblities. Did the Dragon eat the Dwarf - armour, boots, Ring and all? Or did it torch the Dwarf, and, seeing the Ring, eat that?


Now, Dragons love treasure as much as Dwarves do, and the Rings brought to their bearers even more treasure - each was associated with a hoarde. Given that the Dwarves and the Dragons shared much of the North between them the chances of conflict must have been high. That some of the Dragons 'consumed' some of the Dwarves' rings must mean that there were independent Dragons, free of the control of Sauron and hence not terribly worried about destroying his Rings of Power in order to get their claws on that treasure (does this mean there were also female Dragons and Dragon babies?).
Could a Dragon wear/use a Ring of Power? Did a Ring inside the Dragon beget anything more than indigestion? Could a Dragon detect that these Rings, even the least of them, contained something more than just ornamental value?

Were the Dragons located/designated so that each would spoil a specific treasure hold (which usualy was surrounded by a Dwarven community), or were they more freelance, foraging for treasure wherever they could find it? Does this mean that Dragons fought one another? Would one Dragon try to take the Ring of another?

Why were there no Dragons in Moria? It had treasure, the possibility of a Ring and Dwarves - what's not to like? Sure, there was a Balrog running about, but given enough avarice (especially if the Dragon held a Ring), that fear could be surmounted.


And another thing that fascinates me...Why did Sauron want his Dwarf rings back?
My thought has always been so that he could regift them. Without arms to work the forge, he had to make due with what remained.

Or maybe he saw how much they would bring on eBay...

[Kuruharan]

This is a topic that becomes increasingly awkward the more one investigates it.

Virtually all the information we possess about the Dwarf-rings contradicts some other information we possess about the Dwarf-rings. Keeping this in the context of the story, I suppose this is attributable to the secretive nature of the Dwarves.

In spite of what is said…

…so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed.

…this secret was pretty obvious and apparently not all that well kept.

Michael Martinez in his essay “Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves, Part II” said that it was by no means certain that all seven Dwarf-rings were given to kings, and Tolkien never explicitly said that in his capacity as author. However, the implication is thick in the air…Seven Rings and Seven Houses with Seven Kings. Who else would have gotten the rings except for the kings? As alatar noted above, Gandalf believed that the Dwarf-rings had gone to the kings. Of course, it could be argued that Gandalf would not be as knowledgeable about dwarf matters as he would be about, say, elves. However, Thrain, who would probably be expected to know, was positive that his ring was the last, and everybody we ever come across holds the same opinion.

So, taking this as a starting point, anybody who knew about the Rings would probably have a pretty good idea who had them. The mystery, as far as the Longbeards are concerned, didn’t start until they abandoned Khazad-dum and then was aggravated when Thror went batty and ran off and nobody except Thrain knew that Thror had given him the ring.

All this indicates one of two things, either after the rings were lost the dwarves didn’t have a problem telling outsiders about their loss or that knowledge about who had the rings was pretty common among people in the know about such things.

The next oddity is the way in which the fates of the various rings are divided up. Three return to Sauron and four are destroyed. Durin’s Ring is one of the ones that returned to Sauron. Which two the others must be is not too difficult to guess. According to my personal view, almost by default these have to be the rings that belonged to the Firebeards and Broadbeams. We know very little of these peoples after the end of the First Age. The Firebeards were probably permanently broken and there were probably very few of them left in subsequent ages. The Broadbeams did not suffer a catastrophic population loss in battle, but they must have lost a large portion of their homes in the destruction of Beleriand and depending on how the destruction happened they may have lost a lot of people in this event. There is some talk about the Broadbeams going to Khazad-dum…but then what? Nothing more is said of them. They may have merged with the Longbeards or simply lived with them as a separate people. If they merged we don’t have seven houses anymore and then things get really messy. I personally, upon no evidence whatsoever, tend to the idea that what few Firebeards survived never left the Blue Mountains and they never recovered their power in a meaningful way. Since the Broadbeams are mentioned as having gone to Khazad-dum, I have to accept that. However, again based upon no particular evidence, I think they probably went back to the Blue Mountains before too long. I think their population must have dropped at the end of the First Age…or if you prefer, not many of them went back to the Blue Mountains. On the other hand, there is also no reason to suppose that they went back to the Blue Mountains, assuming a hypothesis that they left Khazad-dum. They could have gone anywhere. But the fact remains that we never hear of them again. I personally think they did go to the Blue Mountains because the Blue Mountains were safe.

This gets us into difficulties because there were never any dragons in the area of the Blue Mountains. This leads to a division of the three western Houses had their rings repossessed and the four eastern houses had their rings eaten…which seems a little arbitrary. However, if a dragon had gone to the Blue Mountains and eaten a dwarf-king I think we would know about it because the dragon would probably have remained in the area and caused all the usual problems in the neighborhood. Orc raids, on the other hand, could have come down from the far north into the Blue Mountains and not have been known to any of our chroniclers or at least not have excited any attention until after it was known that a king had been killed and a ring taken.

(Please don’t mention that it is quite likely that a bunch of the dwarves probably lived south of the Gulf of Lune).

This leaves wondering why the eastern dwarf rings were eaten by dragons. For that, we have that reliable old standby of an explanation, “we don’t know what went on in eastern middle earth.” For those among you who exhibited excellent taste in reading my third arcane topic, you know that I think the eastern dwarves fell into evil of a kind, but were not necessarily subjugated to Sauron. Sauron might at some point have used dragons to try to bring the more independent minded in line. I personally think that the dragons were largely free actors outside of Sauron’s direct control and that they went rampaging about eating what they wanted. On the whole, I suspect the dragons ate the rings not realizing what they were, and not necessarily noticing that they’d eaten a ring at all.

[alatar]

This is a topic that becomes increasingly awkward the more one investigates it.
You should have known that it would have been exposed by a much too curious wizard with an overfull bag of questions.


Virtually all the information we possess about the Dwarf-rings contradicts some other information we possess about the Dwarf-rings. Keeping this in the context of the story, I suppose this is attributable to the secretive nature of the Dwarves.
I can accept that the information contains both intentional and inadvertent noise. The secretive Dwarves, like Thorin, may have run a dis-information campaign to put off both the curious and malevolent. Dragons, though not able to make use of a Great Ring, possibly would know that where one existed, a gold horde lay hidden as well. Also, though secretive, surely there was at least one Dwarf of the Ioreth make who spoke without knowing all of the details.


Michael Martinez in his essay “Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves, Part II” said that it was by no means certain that all seven Dwarf-rings were given to kings, and Tolkien never explicitly said that in his capacity as author. However, the implication is thick in the air…Seven Rings and Seven Houses with Seven Kings. Who else would have gotten the rings except for the kings? As alatar noted above, Gandalf believed that the Dwarf-rings had gone to the kings. Of course, it could be argued that Gandalf would not be as knowledgeable about dwarf matters as he would be about, say, elves. However, Thrain, who would probably be expected to know, was positive that his ring was the last, and everybody we ever come across holds the same opinion.
Are there, in Middle Earth in the Third Age, three Houses of Elves? Regardless, it does seem convenient that there are Rings for each House of Dwarf. This makes some sense as how big could two piles of gold be? Wouldn't one of the two bearers want there to be only one? So if the Rings weren't in the hands of the Seven Kings, then to me at least the Seven would not be in the same places - no two would be in the same kingdom or city. Note that the Three were dispersed, and only came into close proximity in the end, and that because one roamed and had no home.

And the Nine were forced together.


So, taking this as a starting point, anybody who knew about the Rings would probably have a pretty good idea who had them. The mystery, as far as the Longbeards are concerned, didn’t start until they abandoned Khazad-dum and then was aggravated when Thror went batty and ran off and nobody except Thrain knew that Thror had given him the ring.

All this indicates one of two things, either after the rings were lost the dwarves didn’t have a problem telling outsiders about their loss or that knowledge about who had the rings was pretty common among people in the know about such things.

There may have been a time when the information was more freely or less freely given. Initially the receivers sent thank you's; after they realized (or not) that the Rings were somewhat cursed, then either consciously or subconsciously, they started hiding them.


This gets us into difficulties because there were never any dragons in the area of the Blue Mountains. This leads to a division of the three western Houses had their rings repossessed and the four eastern houses had their rings eaten…which seems a little arbitrary. However, if a dragon had gone to the Blue Mountains and eaten a dwarf-king I think we would know about it because the dragon would probably have remained in the area and caused all the usual problems in the neighborhood. Orc raids, on the other hand, could have come down from the far north into the Blue Mountains and not have been known to any of our chroniclers or at least not have excited any attention until after it was known that a king had been killed and a ring taken.
Could a dragon have killed an entire Dwarven community and, having received a mortal wound, died in the process, therefore leaving no witnesses? Could another strain of dwarves destroyed the Ring bearing ones, then, before using the Ring, fall into the hot maw of a Worm? Were the Rings fed to dragons as the dwarves knew that the Rings did no one any good, and thought that the Ring may slake the worm's thirst for treasure, if consumed?

And what about the petty dwarves?


(Please don’t mention that it is quite likely that a bunch of the dwarves probably lived south of the Gulf of Lune).
Surfing dwarves? Dude...


This leaves wondering why the eastern dwarf rings were eaten by dragons. For that, we have that reliable old standby of an explanation, “we don’t know what went on in eastern middle earth.” For those among you who exhibited excellent taste in reading my third arcane topic, you know that I think the eastern dwarves fell into evil of a kind, but were not necessarily subjugated to Sauron. Sauron might at some point have used dragons to try to bring the more independent minded in line. I personally think that the dragons were largely free actors outside of Sauron’s direct control and that they went rampaging about eating what they wanted. On the whole, I suspect the dragons ate the rings not realizing what they were, and not necessarily noticing that they’d eaten a ring at all.
The dragons, after more thought, would have to be free agents. What benefit would it be to Sauron to have the Rings destroyed? Also, if they were destroyed, the Rings either weren't important or visible to the dragon. Smaug was able to rout the Lonely Mountain dwarves yet was able to preserve their halls and treasure, and so it seems that if a dragon wanted not to destroy something, it had the capacity for restraint.

Excellent post, Kuruharan, and thanks for your very informative input.

Not that you answered the question... ;)

[Kuruharan]

Could a dragon have killed an entire Dwarven community and, having received a mortal wound, died in the process, therefore leaving no witnesses?

Possibly, but somebody would have eventually figured out that something had happened. The dwarven reliance on trade for food would mean it would be likely their neighbors would know they were there, and the area was rather populated.

And what about the petty dwarves?

They were long dead.

[alatar]

Possibly, but somebody would have eventually figured out that something had happened. The dwarven reliance on trade for food would mean it would be likely their neighbors would know they were there, and the area was rather populated.
So it would be safe to say that, as we have no information about the Dragon attacks, stupendous battles, Dwarven Camlosts and other artifacts of missing Rings, that it simply just wasn't written and so glossed over.


They were long dead.
Think that you meant 'they were short dead'. ;)

[alatar]

Appendix B, The Tale of Years, of The Return of the King, gives us a hint regarding when the Dragons may have consumed the four Rings of Power.


The Third Age: Year 2570 - About this time Dragons reappear in the far north and begin to afflict the Dwarves.
and


Year 2589 - Dáin I is slain by a Dragon.
At this time Sauron's already in Dol Guldur, Sméagol-Gollum is in hiding with the One Ring in the Misties, Brego's built the Golden Hall, Elrond's widowed (no, she didn't die, but he has the remote all to himself), Thrór and his Ring return to Erebor and his brother, Grór heads off to the Iron hills (and whats does he have in his pocketses?).

So, to me, with the fall of Dáin, we know the fate of one. Three to go...