Elves don't belong in Valinor?

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I am posting this thread to explore some ideas about the Firstborn's presense in Valinor. I got this idea while reading debate in another thread over which elven race, the Vanyar or the Noldor, was greater. The Exile was used as evidence against the Noldor, which made me think about whether it really was wrong for them to leave. That led me to question whether the Elves should have ever been in Valinor in the first place.

The Valar brought the Elves to the Undying Lands after much deliberation amongst themselves:

Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts.

The Sil. goes on to talk about the Valar's reasons for bringing them in. One of those reasons had a selfish motovation:

But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship.

Mandos' comment didn't exactly give the plan a ringing endorsement:

At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever;and Mandos broke his silence, saying: 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.

That portion of the Sil. cites the summons as the origination of the woes that happened afterward.

The Elves initially didn't even want to go to Valinor:

But the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone; and they were filled with dread.

When the Valar finally did convince the Eldar to travel to Valinor it caused the divisions of the Elven race. A people that was once whole became separated into the Caliquendi and Moriquendi, groups that were themselves even further subdivided.

To theorize that the Valar were wrong to bring the Quendi to Valinor means to accept the fact that they were not perfect and could make mistakes.

Before the gates of Valmar Melkor abased himself at the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon, vowing that if he might be made only the least of the free people of Valinor he would aid the Valar in all their works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had done to the world. And Nienna aided his prayer; but Mandos was silent. Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.

The Valar mishandled this entire situation, showing they were capable of making mistakes. Melkor himself embodies the potential fallibility of the Valar. Thus, it is possible that they made the wrong decision in bringing the Elves to Valinor.

Perhaps this thought should be another thread entirely, but I find it unconscionable that the Valar did not toss Melkor into the Timeless Void when they had their hands on him this first time. He had already done enough to show he was beyond redemption.

Eru created the Quendi to be born in Middle Earth. Let me know what you think about the Valar's presumtion to move them to Valinor.

By extension, if it was wrong to bring the elves to Valinor, it was not wrong for the Noldor to leave. The "Fall of the Noldor" then should refer not to the fact that they left, but to the manner in which they left(the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, abandonment of Fingolfin's people, burning of the White Ships at Losgar) and the things that happened to them as a race afterward.

I realize this probably sounds a bit like the "black lies of Morgoth" smilies/evil.gif, but I just wanted to get some of your thoughts on this different view of the elves in Valinor.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[Maédhros]

The Valar mishandled this entire situation, showing they were capable of making mistakes. Melkor himself embodies the potential fallibility of the Valar. Thus, it is possible that they made the wrong decision in bringing the Elves to Valinor.
Definitely that the Valar had made mistakes, they are not perfect. I personally believe that leaving the elves in ME would have been better. I usually go with Ulmo in these things.
Perhaps this thought should be another thread entirely, but I find it unconscionable that the Valar did not toss Melkor into the Timeless Void when they had their hands on him this first time. He had already done enough to show he was beyond redemption.
I think that if the Valar had done that, they would have taken the element of Redemption away from Melkor. That is what made Manwë, royal and the most noble of the Ainur, the fact that he gave Melkor a chance even thought Melkor didn't deserve it.
If you read Bolt1, Chaining of Melko you would see that Manwë himself was willing to bow to Melko in hopes of having him return to Valinor and avoid "unpleasantries"; of course Tulkas interfered and it never happened.
But I believe that it gives us something of his character that is lacking in the Sil, although it's only Bolt.

[burrahobbit]

It's good that you are thinking about this stuff (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000380), but this thread has been started before (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000380). Check it out (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000380), it might help you along (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000380).

As to your question about why the Valar didn't get rid of Melkor right away, try to look up an essay called "osanwe-kenta." You can find some info on this board if you do a search, PM me if you need any help finding the actual text. In short, Melkor could keep his mind totally walled off and project only what would win him Manwe's good favor.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Damn. I thought I had come up with a good one. It is hard to do with so many good minds on this board. Thanks for the links burrahobbit. I am not familiar with the "Osanwe-Kenta". I will look it up.

I read the other thread, and there is some discussion. Maybe this thread will revive it. The ideas of even Melkor having the right of Redemption make sense, but how much is enough? Was it really necessary for all that came after the Valar's first chance to be rid of Melkor to happen in order to establish he was beyond saving?

In thinking more about this I get the idea that the restraint of the Valar in regard to Melkor makes them accomplices in all that took place via Feanor and his Oath.
Even more, the Valar are accomplices in all that went wrong after the attack on them during the time of the Pillars. I can appreciate the portion of the Osanwe-Kenta that was quoted in the other thread which talked about the fact that evil will always make use of the constraints that good places on itself.

..he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth

However, I don't think that relieves good of the responsibility to destroy evil when it reveals itself. Melkor revealed his evil when he destroyed the Pillars. There is a saying "If a dog bites you once, it's the dog's fault. If he bites you twice, it's your fault."

The only thing, in my mind, that would absolve the Valar of guilt would be if they did not have the ability to apprehend Melkor after the destruction of the Pillars. Surely the combined might of the Valar would have been enough had they chosen to exercise it, even though Melkor was still at or very close to the height of his power.

[burrahobbit]

Something to keep in mind when thinking about what the Valar did and didn't do is that they lack free will. Everything that they do was determined During the Music. Once they enter into Arda they become a part of it and bound to its fate.

[Galorme]

I think that i greatly respect Manwe for his decision. He was a good, kind leader, who saw a fallen comrade who needed healing, who's soul was damaged but not irreparable. This ability to see good in even the greatest of evil is an admirable trait, even if it could be seen as foolish.

[akhtene]

This ability to see good in even the greatest of evil is an admirable trait
Then how about the Curse of Mandos, quick and irrevocable? (for quite a time anyway) How about Numenor destroyed with all its women and kids for the folly of the king? And the culprits both time escape with no more than burned hands or loss of fair looks.
IMHO the clear case of “dog doesn’t eat dog”. smilies/evil.gif

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Those that were destroyed with Numenor were, chiefly, the fallen and bad-hearted of the Numenoreans. The survivors under Elendil were actually, as I remember, most of the island's inhabitants who still held on to the light. Thus the Valar spared them.

If I may add... do they then belong in Middle-Earth? Perhaps at first, but not now. It is too Men dominated, and the time of the Elves is over. Since Elves are mostly true-hearted and those that are left cannot really be evil, at least to nothing like the same extent we can, Valinor may well suit them better than Middle-Earth. When they had it to themselves things were different. The expansion and domination of Men was Eru's design, and so the Elves too must have their place; so it must be Valinor.

[Aralaithiel]

Excellent question, Gwaihir (forgive me if I have butchered the spelling of your most noble name, oh Windlord!)!
I would also like to add that IMHO, I felt that in the 3rd Age, many Elves felt a call upon them to return to Valinor. Obviously, Eru had placed a desire among them to return, especially after the destruction of Sauron. But, that is merely my opinion.
I'll check back later & see how this discussion has progressed.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

greatly respect Manwe for his decision. He was a good, kind leader, who saw a fallen comrade who needed healing, who's soul was damaged but not irreparable

Not irrepairable? From before the beginning of time Melkor did nothing but screw things up. The Song, the Pillars, etc. Melkor was the mechanism of the Marring of Arda.

I see your point, Gwaihir, about Elves no longer belonging in Middle Earth. I don’t think that precludes the argument that they didn’t belong in Valinor before Men even awoke in Middle Earth. It does make sense that Eru intended Valinor to be the Firstborn’s eventual home, however I think the Valar jumped the gun.

Something to keep in mind when thinking about what the Valar did and didn't do is that they lack free will. Everything that they do was determined During the Music. Once they enter into Arda they become a part of it and bound to its fate.

I’d guess there is probably a thread already dealing with this, but I’ll toss this out there anyway. Something to think about regarding fate, free will, and the Music: How tightly do you think the Music preordained the actions of the Valar and the Elves? Did it describe their lives down to the smallest detail or did it define the broad course the movements the world would take up to the time of Men? As far as I can see from this discussion, the complicity of the Valar hinges on that issue.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[akhtene]

The Valar were most probably preordained by the Music, as the themes were given to them by Eru himself and they were to be the tools (if I may use the word) to carry out Eru’s design. But then weren’t it they who created the MUSIC on Eru’s THEMES? “Behold YOUR Music,» said Eru. That doesn’t allow me to think that everything was planned to the smallest detail from the very start, at least not by Him. IMHO Eru outlined the course for the Valar (he didn’t tell them all his designs, right? so they couldn’t reflect them in their Music which was the instrument of Creation). The Valar could direct the fates of elves (maybe because they had taken part the Second Theme) by their actions – eg. by summoning them to Valinor-, or inactions – by allowing the Marring of Arda or the theft if Silmarils. The Men in turn seem to be led by elves – those ones who dared to entwine their fates with Firstborn. The Valar stand as rewarding or punishing forces – the aftermath one has to think of.

As for elves going to Valinor… Wouldn’t they be happier in M-E if they didn’t know of a marvelous place awaiting for them somewhere beyond the seas? I’ve got the feeling that M-E lost elves the moment they were invited to Valinor. The ones who departed – well, they departed. And the lives of those ones that stayed were marred by thought of Paradise Lost (or the lost chance to find it). Men dominate Arda because it’s their one and only home, and they have to make the best of it (as well as they can).
And anyway what would have happened if the Valar took ALL elves to Valinor in the First Age as they had intended? Were the Men meant to fight Melkor or redress his wrong alone and unaided?

[Orual]

Men dominate Arda because it’s their one and only home, and they have to make the best of it (as well as they can).

Akhtene, I think you're right--Men were satisfied with Arda because it's all they'd ever had, and all they could ever expect to have. But, I also wonder if the Elves would have (by way of some racial memory) remembered Valinor, and yearned for it anyway?

~*~Orual~*~

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I also lean toward akhtene's "broad constructionist" view of the Music. The overall fate of Valar and Elves is preordained but the road they take to their fate is in their own hands. That leaves a huge amount of room for speculation, which in a way stinks because speculation is sometimes hard to prove or disprove.

If you accept the idea that the Valar had room to manuver within the constraints of their fate as defined by the Music, then my question remains: Were the Valar covetous and presumtive in bringing the Quendi to Valinor when they did? I say yes.

And anyway what would have happened if the Valar took ALL elves to Valinor in the First Age as they had intended? Were the Men meant to fight Melkor or redress his wrong alone and unaided?

My argument is that they should have taken NONE of the Elves to Valinor at that point. Ulmo agreed with me:

For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts.

The Valar should have gotten off their butts and gone to ME to teach the Elves. All of the Elves would have then been around to assist Men when they awoke. Instead the Valar coveted the work of Eru and talked them into coming to Valinor before they should have. And then failed to protect them in their own back yard. That last sentance comes straight out of the mouth of Feanor, but I think he had a good point there.