how would Tolkien feel about fanfic or RPGs?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Inspired by this discussion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13905), I present you with the following question:

How would Tolkien feel about fanfiction and RPGs?

[Morthoron]

As I stated in that locked-thread-that-shall-not-be-named, it seems based on Tolkien's letters that perhaps early in his career the thought of enhancing Middle-earth through others' works may have been acceptable or even welcomed. Tolkien did indeed indulge in joint projects with his schoolmates and later with the Inklings (Lewis in particular); however, as he grew older and more curmudgeonly it is apparent that the whole idea became anathema to him (his distaste for Zimmerman's film being obvious), to the point where, near the end of his life, he only trusted his son, Christopher, to maintain the lore.

Therefore, it seems reasonable that he would cordially despise Middle-earth fan-fiction or RPG's (considering it perhaps flippant), just as he would more than likely be appalled by P.J. Jackson's rendering of LotR.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

It's hard to know how he'd react. But I suspect since he was so exacting of himself that he might avoid reading other people's work, unless of course it came highly recommended. And if it was up to his standards, I do think he would truly enjoy it.

Yes, I'm going to be one of those people who think there need to be another option. ;)

[Ataralasse]

I picked the first, because I thought he'd like it to be continued, but now that I think about it, there's some Bad Stuff out there based on his works ... :-|

[Kuruharan]

Hypocritically enough, I have to believe that he wouldn't have liked it very much...but maybe I'm feeling guilty for the hand that I have had in the various incarnations of REB. ;)

[Andsigil]

RPGs are nothing more than the adult version of children running through the woods, shouting "I'm Aragorn!" and swinging a toy sword at a tree. And who could be angry at that? ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

RPGs are nothing more than the adult version of children running through the woods, shouting "I'm Aragorn!" and swinging a toy sword at a tree. And who could be angry at that? ;)

The tree.

[Thinlómien]

And the Ents.

[Kitanna]

I find it very hard to say how Tolkien would feel about these RPGs and fanfics. Because there are many RPGs and fanfictions out there that are not only well-written, but keep the facts and histories of Middle-Earth as they were written. Everything is left in the canon Tolkien established. Perhaps Tolkien would be flattered by these lovers of his work who took their time to keep the facts straight and write something for fun because they love Middle-Earth.

On the other hand you run into RPGs and fanfictions that completely bend things. They don't follow the books so much as they follow Peter Jackson's movies and the events added there (such as the Elves at Helm's Deep, Arwen on the verge of death, etc.) Many that follow those lines are nothing more than the writer expressing their crush for an actor in the film. Which is all fine and dandy, but would probably be frowned upon by Tolkien.

Having seen way more fanfics and RPGs that pretty much destroy the canon of Middle-Earth I'm going to have to say Tolkien would probably prefer only his son or others authorized editors should carry on his work.

[ninja91]

Tolkien was a generous and fair man, to say the least. Now, that does not mean that he would fully endorse fanfic and publish it as part of his world, but I do think that he created it so people could enjoy it in different ways.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As I posted on the ex-thread, when Tolkien was confronted with fanfic he got very angry indeed and referred it to A&U's lawyers (he called the author a "young a-s"). I can't believe that the leader right now is Option 1, what JRRT called his "deplorable cultus," and ascribed to young people of culturally impoverished backgrounds getting "quite drunk" on his writings.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The former- I believe the unhappy person in question proposed a 'sequel.' The latter, unlike the former, is far beyond copyright protection; and, after all, it can hardly be claimed that Tolkien invented Elves, Dwarves, and dragons! Derivative and ripoffish as it is, Shannara is not exactly Middle-earth, so Brooks can get away with it (not that I'd insult you by putting your work down on that level!)

[ninja91]

:eek:The former- I believe the unhappy person in question proposed a 'sequel.' The latter, unlike the former, is far beyond copyright protection; and, after all, it can hardly be claimed that Tolkien invented Elves, Dwarves, and dragons! Derivative and ripoffish as it is, Shannara is not exactly Middle-earth, so Brooks can get away with it (not that I'd insult you by putting your work down on that level!)

Do you know whether his anger was directed at people writing stories directly correlated with his works, using his lands, cultures, and history, or was it directed at people writing stories that include merely his races (i.e. elves, dwarves) like authors such as Christopher Paolini and myself? (and many others here, I assume)




I dont want the Fathers of Fantasy working against me...:eek:

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think the order and embedded quotes of the last couple of posts has gotten screwed up.

[Lord Halsar]

[QUOTE=Kitanna;527710]I find it very hard to say how Tolkien would feel about these RPGs and fanfics. Because there are many RPGs and fanfictions out there that are not only well-written, but keep the facts and histories of Middle-Earth as they were written. Everything is left in the canon Tolkien established. Perhaps Tolkien would be flattered by these lovers of his work who took their time to keep the facts straight and write something for fun because they love Middle-Earth./QUOTE]


I agree to that. I would expect him to take a great liking to this site aswell.
Though, i believe he would probably cause another 9-11 if he saw some of the parody-videos that are on the internet. I myself can't beleive some of the stuff that people have put out.

[Thinlómien]

:eek:
Do you know whether his anger was directed at people writing stories directly correlated with his works, using his lands, cultures, and history, or was it directed at people writing stories that include merely his races (i.e. elves, dwarves) like authors such as Christopher Paolini and myself? (and many others here, I assume)Elves and dwarves were not his own. They existed in folk tales long before Tolkien himself was born. And they exist in tales after his death. Tolkien fashioned the archetype Elves and Dwarves for modern fantasy, just as - for example - Finns of old times fashioned Kullervo who Tolkien took to his own and named Túrin (of course changing him like the modern authors have changed his Elves). So I doubt he would disapprove. He would see it as recycling good old ideas, just like he did when making up his wonderful stories.

[davem]

Elves and dwarves were not his own. They existed in folk tales long before Tolkien himself was born. And they exist in tales after his death. Tolkien fashioned the archetype Elves and Dwarves for modern fantasy, just as - for example - Finns of old times fashioned Kullervo who Tolkien took to his own and named Túrin (of course changing him like the modern authors have changed his Elves). So I doubt he would disapprove. He would see it as recycling good old ideas, just like he did when making up his wonderful stories.

Good point. I think Tolkien would have objected to other author's 'lifting' his Elves & Dwarves lock, stock & barrel - as so many writers of fantasy do - but not to other writers going back to the original sources.

Of course the problem is that too many writers of fantasy know that Tolkien drew on ancient sources for his Elves & dwarves, Trolls & Goblins, & think that he used them 'as is' - & that if they write about the kind of Elves in his works they aren't stealing from him but drawing on the old tales themselves. What they don't realise is that he didn't simply take those creatures from the old tales, but effectively made them into new & unique races. Elves & Dwarves may people old tales but they aren't Tolkien's Elves & Dwarves.

That said, Tolkien's works aren't original, & he took many things from old tales but he s made them his own. Too many writers of fantasy think they can 'do a Tolkien' by simply copying him (& too many readers of fantasy seem only to want a copy of Tolkien). I've said (too) many times that if you're looking for something in the same mould as Tolkien's work you should skip past the fantasy section & head for the 'Classics' section & pick up some Sagas - heroes, monsters, magic & epic tragedy: 'cool and clear, ... redolent of our ‘air’ (the clime and soil of the North
West, meaning Britain and hither parts of Europe….)

This is a good piece:
http://www.reflectionsedge.com/archives/mar2005/dtw_sm.html

[davem]

I've found this excerpt from Rayner Unwin: George Allen and Unwin: A Remembrancer p.126 posted over on the Plaza by my friend Geordie (hope he doesn't mind me passing it on...) :

'While Tolkien remained in Oxford he and his secretary still had a lot of correspondence to deal with. He found this less and less amusing and more burdensome. "I came back yesterday to find a mass of letters, nearly all annoying and some troublesome" he told me in March 1966... In particular Tolkien was unable to deal with clashes of creativity. Many correspondents had been stimulated through reading LotR into an imitative and inept creativity of their own, based on some aspect of the book. Tolkien could muster very little tolerance for such misguided forms of admiration. The boisterous good humour with which he could face ridiculous aspects of real life deserted him when his own creation was misused. He would become angry and exasperated, and unless it was otherwise necessary we would try to shelter him from such well-intentioned effusions. He found it particularly difficult to commend, or even to write polite nothings about anything he did not actively approve of...Replies might be drafted but not sent, as after the expenditure of much time silence would seem preferable to hypocrisy'.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Parody videos? Some are funny; some are not. An important point, for me, is that they are not serious and that there is humour.

Some fanfic does take itself seriously, and that's where I guess Tolkien would have the real problem. I'm sure he'd be able to laugh at jokes about Ents or Lorien politics or whatnot. What is far, far more dreadful than that is a straight-faced drama concerning Legolas' romances before the Council of Elrond.

[davem]

For all he might have wanted to produce a mythology that he could dedicate to his country, it seems he was hurt by attempts to 'extend' it. Clearly he felt it was 'his', & not something which belonged to others, which they could add to.

So the question is whether fanfic is technically an addition, or more of a 'tribute'. Tolkien, it seems, felt that what he produced was the story, & only what he produced. I suppose its akin to somebody entering your house & using your things. However respectful they might be of them, they are using them without your permission. He could control what he did with his creation, but not what others did with it. It reflects his values, his vision of the world, & would always be, in some way, him. I think it was, in the end, simply too personal. To find his characters doing & saying things which he hadn't set down would perhaps have felt to him as if they were being manipulated to suit the plans & desires of others. He was, in many ways, a jealous creator, with something of Feanor in him, & in some ways he did, perhaps, love too well the work of his own hands. And yet, it is his creation. For others to take up his characters was perceived by him, rightly or wrongly, to be an attempt to dominate his own creation, & by extension to dominate him. Of course he couldn't authorise other minds & hands to take up the reins.

[Morthoron]

So the question is whether fanfic is technically an addition, or more of a 'tribute'. Tolkien, it seems, felt that what he produced was the story, & only what he produced. I suppose its akin to somebody entering your house & using your things. However respectful they might be of them, they are using them without your permission. He could control what he did with his creation, but not what others did with it. It reflects his values, his vision of the world, & would always be, in some way, him. I think it was, in the end, simply too personal. To find his characters doing & saying things which he hadn't set down would perhaps have felt to him as if they were being manipulated to suit the plans & desires of others. He was, in many ways, a jealous creator, with something of Feanor in him, & in some ways he did, perhaps, love too well the work of his own hands. And yet, it is his creation. For others to take up his characters was perceived by him, rightly or wrongly, to be an attempt to dominate his own creation, & by extension to dominate him. Of course he couldn't authorise other minds & hands to take up the reins.

Great synopsis. I agree whole-heartedly.

[Lush]

I'm one of the few, the proud, the ones who said he wouldn't have cared.

However, I also think that not caring could also imply either a negative or a positive reaction.

I think he had enough going on in his life and in his head to not give the issue a great deal of conscious thought. Although surely he would have reacted in some way - in some small way, perhaps. And this reaction could take on different aspects over time - annoyance, perhaps, or amusement, or even a sense of occasional pleasure.

Writers are moody, after all.

[mark12_30]

I wish there had been an entry for "depends on the quality."

Letter 131: I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and scketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

The defensive ire we see in Tolkien's letters (and elsewhere) seems to me to be directed at the lack of respect for the characters and the "high, purged of the gross" character of the legendarium as a whole. I imagine he would be, or try to be, more patient with one who attempted to respect the characters and the quality of the mythology, than with folk who did not attempt either; say, the movie-adapters in Letter 210.