Morgoth and Doriath

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I don't understand why Morgoth didn't just invade the Kingdom of Menegroth. It wasn't like Melian was ultra powerful. Besides, an army of Balrogs and a couple of Orcs and even Glaurung could breached inside Dorith. Melian wouldn't be able to stay the Balrogs. She got lucky with Ungoliant..

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What do you mean by "she got lucky with Ungoliant" ?

I doubt that Glaurung would be able to pass the gridle of Melian, in fact the only one I am sure could do so is Morgoth. Melian just seem like a very powerful Maia. She mannaged to lift the spell of Morgoth from Hurin and that does not seem like an easy task, I doubt that any other could have done it. (amongst the Noldor and Edain in Beleriand)

I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.

Maybe a host of Balrogs could have entered, but I doubt that Morgoth would risk an assault has he would have had very little knowledge about the power of Doriath.

[arcticstorm]

The question that arises though is did Morgoth even need to invade them. Despite everything, i do not think Morgoth was a fool. Look at it like this, Morgoth manipulated Feanor to cause him to raise his hand against Fingolfin and thus get banished. Afterward, Morgoth's lust led him to steal the silmarills knowing full well that it would cause Feanor to leave Valinor and rebel against the Valar. If the teleri were to follow Feanor, it would have sertved his purposes by having more rebel against the valar, but since they did not, his purposes were served even better.

The Noldor's slaughtering of the Teleri drove a wedge between the sons of Feanor and the kingdom of Thingol, thus causing the isolation of Doriath. Morgoth did not need to invade Menengroth to achieve his purposes, all he had to do was keep them out of the fight until his victory over the Noldor was guaranteed. In a war it is always a good strategy to let the neutrals remain neutral until your enemy is dealt with. You do not want to attack someone who is going to sit out anyway unless victory is guaranteed.

It is even better to use someone else to do your dirty work for you, and this is what Melkor did by manipulating Hurin, and then setting off the snowball that would lead to the dwarven attack. He also knew that when the girdle was broke, the sons of Feanor would have no choice but to take the silmarill from them by force. When you can get your enemies to fight eachother, you have no need to use your own manpower.

[Raynor]

In Myths Transformed, HoME X, we learn that Melkor's purpose became utter destruction. To that end, he was impeded by the Noldor (first and foremost), and secondly, by the Girdle. In that sense, he did need to destroy the girdle. I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves. He sown seeds, and they gave fruits, rather independently, as they did even after his death (as the last paragraph of the Silm. tells us
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
In the Silmarillion, we even know that he was surprised to see the noldor coming to knock on his door; I also doubt he planned or foresaw the fight between the dwarves and Thingol, if that is what you referred to.

[Lindale]

Melkor is a good strategist, but he isn't the best. He did achieve to sow discord amongst the Noldor under the very nose of the Valar, and that for me is either a huge feat or the Valar were just too stupid. And the thing with Hurin and his kin. However I think there are things Melkor overlooked, like Beren and Luthien, and there are stuff that he didn't plan that just worked for him, like the Kinslaying of Feanor and the curse and other discords among the Noldor that followed.

He saw that he didn't need to attack Melian, as Melian did nothing to oppose him other than guard her realm, Melian was no threat to him. I mean, before the time of the Noldor the Elves of Doriath didn't go to open war or march against Angband. And what purpose would Melkor get? He probably foresaw the discord that shall follow the Kinslaying, as a proof that he still had a measure of wisdom. If he attacked Melian and Doriath that would be a good reason for the Doriath Sindar to forge an alliance with the Noldor even just for the sake of having a common great enemy, either if he attacked before or after the Noldor came, because I think that it would take a lot to destroy all the Sindar--he still had only orcs and no dragons till after the Noldor arrived.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

You might be right that Morgoth did not fear Melian and Thingol and that they where no real threat to him, but I am confident that he would eventually seek to destroy Doriath with military force if it had stood long enough.

As I understand it Morgoth did not only wager war against those that where a threat to him, he sought to defeat and enslave the whole world and even thought Doriath could not challenge him it was too great to be ignored.

[Kuruharan]

I think Doriath was probably next on Morgoth's hit list by the time it fell, if for no other reason than he'd run out of other targets.

As for why he didn't do it before, he didn't really have an opportunity. There were several kingdoms in between him and Doriath.

[Macalaure]

I think it's interesting that Morgoth did wage war against Doriath, as we see from the many battles over Dimbar, but still never dared to attack the Girdle.

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out and leaves Sauron and the Balrogs.


Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked.
~ Of Beren and Lúthien

This gives me the impression that Melian's power and Sauron's sorcery is approximately equally strong. So, even though we would consider Sauron to be more powerful overall, it is doubtful to me whether he would have been able to break through the Girdle with his sorcery. It's not overall power which counts, but specific powers. Maybe Sauron would have been able to, maybe not, but I don't think it would be certain. We also know how patient Morgoth is and how calculating with his resources (except Orcs). He wouldn't have risked his most mighty servant in an attack of questionable success. Gothmog and the balrogs are lesser Maiar than Sauron (esp. in sorcery), so an attack of them would be at least as much of a risk.

In the end, Morgoth would probably have had to break the Girdle by himself, but he was extremely reluctant to even leave Angband. I don't think he would have dared to, unless Doriath was the only realm left in all Beleriand. Morgoth basically restricted the power of Doriath to Doriath itself, to the effect that he didn't have to fear it anymore. This way he was able to delay the problem to whenever he felt the time had come to deal with it.


A minor tangent:I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and LúthienIt was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

[Raynor]

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out
Hm, is there any specific reason for that?
You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.
In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

[Rikae]

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I never said that the silmaril increased his powers. . .it increased his furry no doubt.

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

There was only one time he could enter and that was when he had the silmaril in his stomache. . . .I belive that the fate quote referes as much to the fate of the silmaril and Beren as it does to Cacharot, or rather that these cannot be seperated.

[Rikae]

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

[Raynor]

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...
I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.
If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?
Maybe. But Melkor did not put his power upon you, neither are you related to Draugluin, nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you ;).

[Macalaure]

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?Well, to be honest, I couldn't think of any quote from the text which explicitly states that. It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.You might be right. I just noticed that, when Beren enters Doriath, Tolkien uses the word "doom" while here he uses "fate".
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has. I mean, sure, the Silmarils contain the light of the two trees and were hallowed by Varda, but nevertheless they remain the work of only an Elf.
I think Rikae is right by pointing out the "and".

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

[Rikae]

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you ;).

Mac might disagree...

[Raynor]

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?
Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.
It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.
Well, I guess all it's left to imagination alone in this case.
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has.
Well, I would say this would be similar to the one ring: it increases the power according to the measure of the possessor.
(edit: cross-posted like crazy)
Yeah, it looks like it's BD happy hour now :D

[Rikae]

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Fair enough. Do you have an example of a case where there was no fate or doom involved?

[Raynor]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ;); judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.

[Rikae]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ;); judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.

I believe the burden of proof is on you, as you are the one claiming that something which never appears in the books and which the explicit mention of "fate" in the instances that DO appear implies could not happen, could.
Of course, it is possible. It's also possible that a troop of hobbits with spears could defeat the fleet of Numenor - but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Raynor]

As I stated, my position is that the quote cuts both ways. If you are arguing that only a single interpretation is valid, you need to provide that elusive qualifier.

[Rikae]

As I stated, my position is that the quote cuts both ways. If you are arguing that only a single interpretation is valid, you need to provide that elusive qualifier.

Certainly not. I would never argue such a thing. I'm merely saying that one interpretation is more probable; but such matters are always, ultimately, ambiguous.
(I would say that's what makes them worth discussing, actually...:))

[Raynor]

I'm merely saying that one interpretation is more probable
You may be right :).

[Rikae]

You may be right :).

Of course. The question is, which interpretation is more probable? ;)

[Morthoron]

I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

But you wouldn't. . .there would be no reason for Tolkien to put you in his works.

Anyways unless you are willing to bite of Berens hand and enter a mortal combat with Huan, then no :P

Actually for me the main thing is that the faith of Arda rests in the silmarils and are bound to their faith, which means that when the fell beast Rikae swallows the silmaril she becomes a part of that faith. . . .if she was not already in advance.

[Rikae]

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves.

Oh, I disagree. I think the whole elaborate hounding of Hurin's family was only indirectly about them: Morgoth's purpose was to twist Hurin and reforge him into a weapon against Doriath, one who could bring his malice inside the Girdle. Remember, Melkor strove thoughout to show Thingol in particular in the worst possible light. He bloody well knew where Hurin ultimately would go when he got out, a proud, bitter old man bent on vengeance. Revealing Gondolin's location and destroying Brethil were side benefits. Doriath was the target.

[Raynor]

My point was that Melkor did not and could not have prepared the strife between the elves to the level of detail that was mentioned; he sowed seeds of evil, which later developed rather independently. As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

[Rikae]

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

Then the question remains - why didn't he?

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.
I never said you said that.
Raynor said:
I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.

about Rainor's quote: Well, it does not say that the silmaril transfers the power to the holder. . .as I see it Carcharoth was an instrument used for bringing the silmaril to Doriath (and some other stuff). The reason Carcharoth can enter is not that he has become more powerful than Melian, but because the Faith of the Silmaril is greater than her enchantment.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

But that 'version' of events was Christopher's invention; in any event the doubly-cursed Treasure of Nargothrond is what precipitates the strife with the Dwarves.

[Raynor]

But that 'version' of events was Christopher's invention
It wasn't necessarily an invention, since there is a variant of the story where Hurin takes the necklace, casts it before the king and reproaches him.
in any event the doubly-cursed Treasure of Nargothrond is what precipitates the strife with the Dwarves.
I am not aware that Morgoth cursed the Nauglamir. Anyway, I believe you are now arguing along my line of reasoning. A curse is a seed of evil which develops rather independently, and is different from saying that this chain of events was planned by Morgoth.

[Rikae]

very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.


Yes; it also occurs to me: doesn't Tolkien quite rarely make the outcome of the opposition of two beings depend on raw power? He seems more interested in scenarios where the apparently 'weaker' character wins through stealth, wisdom, luck, courage etc.
Not, of course, that Melian "won", but Doriath was successfully protected until she ceased to do so; and I agree with your post above - Morgoth wouldn't have ignored Doriath simply because it was no threat to him.
I also had the impression Doriath was the target he intended to use Hurin against; though the ultimate course of events would not have been one he foresaw, that doesn't change his intent; and the fact that he would have to use such elaborate methods speaks in favor of Melian being very powerful indeed.

[Rikae]

As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. .

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.


In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

[Raynor]

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.
I am aware of that, and it doesn't constitute an object of contention :D. I previously referred to the same paragraph, where I argued that Morgoth's expectations with Hurin was not the destruction of Doriath, but something far less ambitious:
But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

[Rikae]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the possible destruction of Doriath; he could at least foresee that it would be Hurin's destination, and probably intended that Hurin would in some way betray it or break down its defenses, albeit not in the exact way he did.

The sentence you quoted is general and, by itself, implies he had no specific goal, but the previous lines make it clear that he did, and the last line doesn't deny that.

[Morwen]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the later destruction of Doriath...


I don't know that it can be said that Doriath is his primary target. After all, Hurin was captured alived in the hope that he would provide Morgoth with info on the whereabouts of Gondolin and Hurin shortly after his release unwittingly provides Morgoth with a general idea of its location. I don't see how his entry into Doriath and even his initial insults to its rulers can be part of some "Morgothian" plan for its destruction. Unless Morgoth was somehow using Hurin as vehicle to get Nauglamir to Doriath, knowing that its coming would start a chain of events leading to that Kingdom's destruction. But I don't recall this ever being mentioned.

[Raynor]

We are going in circles. I am not saying that Melkor did not want to destroy Doriath - he wanted to destroy everything (including his minions, according to Myths Transformed) - , but what were his tools in this particular case: a specific plan or planting seeds of evil which develop on their own.

[Rikae]

(in reply to Morwen)
By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian. (Not that he was unhappy to also learn the location of Gondolin!)

I'm not claiming that Morgoth planned events to the last detail; I would assume he expected only that he was sending someone who would make his way into Doriath with evil intent. Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

[Raynor]

By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian.
Please, the quote you are apparently referring to mentions that Morgoth distorted the facts concerning Thingol and Melian, not what you have stated.
Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.
Again, the purpose of sending out Hurin to further his hatred between Men and Elves; a pretty general purpose. As far as foreseeing, it is based on knowledge of the music, of which Morgoth did not have much, as he was too busied at that time with his own distorted theme (even Sauron had more knowledge in that respect), and more less so in terms of the Eruhini.

[Rikae]

No, the quote says what it says - again:
In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.
and makes it quite clear he had more than simply a general purpose. Your quote implies that only taken out of context.
But you may now have the last word, since you've successfully killed my interest in this "discussion".

[Raynor]

Unhappy was the lot of Hurin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Hurin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them, and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.
The quote with "sought most" reffers to what Morgoth let Hurin know. It is further in the paragraph, the bolded part, that deal with his intent in releasing Hurin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think perhaps you're underrating the intelligence and power of the self-styled Master of the Fates of Arda. I just read a very lucid amateur review of CoH, which likened Morgoth to a chessmaster playing an amateur: seeing the board a dozen moves ahead, anticipating everything his victim might do and having a counter ready.* I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.


NB: There is no authentic JRRT text associating Hurin with the Nauglamir: in all versions pre-Christopher Thingol has the Necklace made from the hoard after Hurin departs. Nor did JRRT ever say anything about Hurin being healed.




* I've been that amateur, and it's a horrible, suffocating feeling, like being Kaa the Python's prey.

[Morwen]

Rikae, I am sorry that you are no longer interested in the discussion. However, I also don't think that Morgoth casting Melian and Thingol in a bad light has anything to do with any plan by Morgoth to destroy Doriath.
Doriath's doom is set in motion by Thingol's demand of a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Melian points out soon after that he has doomed either his daughter or himself and "now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm" (Of Beren and Luthien, Silm) Doriath's doom is effectively sealed once a Silmaril finds its way into Thingol's possession. Hurin or no Hurin, Nauglamir or no Nauglamir, Doriath is doomed.
However, does Hurin provide a catalyst for Doriath's destruction? Evidently so. His gift of Nauglamir sets off the chain of events which will end with Thingol's surviving grandchild living as a refugee by the sea. Is this all some part of grand scheme cooked up by Morgoth? I would argue no.

(1) The quote that you have cited that "in all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" has to be read in light of the preceding paragraph:

So ended the tale of Turin Turambar; but Morgoth did not sleep nor rest from evil, and his dealings with the house of Hador were not yet ended. Against them his malice was unsated, though Hurin was under his eye, and Morwen wandered distraught in the world.

So despite the fact that Hurin's children are at this point dead, Morgoth is still intent on punishing Hurin. Not only will Hurin grieve the loss of his children but because Morgoth "sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done" he will also be angry and bitter toward the people who at one point sheltered them. Perhaps Morgoth's lies led him to believe that the rulers of Doriath could have done more to protect Turin and Nienor and so not only are Hurin's children dead but they died because Thingol and Melian failed to do enough to prevent it. Potraying the rulers of Doriath in a bad light therefore is not about unleashing Hurin on them as weapon (what could he hope to do to them?) but about compounding his grief over the loss of his children.

(2) I also do not think that Morgoth foresaw the indirect role that Hurin would play in Doriath's destruction. Raynor earlier mentioned that the foresight of the Valar is based on their knowledge of the music and alludes to this passage from Of the Silmarils concerning Morgoth's knowledge of Men - "Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do? Fetching Nauglamir, the gift of which is connected to Doriath's ruin, sounds like Hurin's idea to me. I don't know of any passage that suggests that it isn't. And if Morgoth is not involved with the retrieval of the necklace then I don't think that he can be said to have used Hurin to further the destruction of Doriath.

[Macalaure]

Unhappy was the lot of Húrin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Húrin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The way I read this, Morgoth had indeed only a very general aim when he released Húrin. But, since he cast the worst light on Thingol and Melian, because he hated and feared them, it would be quite reasonable for him to assume that, among all realms, Húrin might do his greatest harm to Doriath.

I, too, can hardly believe that Morgoth planned the whole Nauglamír incident. But that does not mean that the release of Húrin has not been done in order to, among other things, further the destruction of Doriath. As has been said before, Morgoth's ultimate goal was to destroy everything, and so, everything he did was meant to further this. Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it. There was no real long-term plan in what he did, but the intention is more important, I think.

[Morwen]

In LotR there is a passage where Gollum observes that Sauron hated Isildur's city, to which Frodo replies "What does he not hate?" One can easily ask the same of Sauron's predecessor. Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see. After all, Morgoth had attempted in vain to get Hurin to divulge the location of that city. Having failed to daunt Hurin into giving him that info, Morgoth releases him (new tactic) and Hurin then unwittingly does what he resisted doing for close to three decades: he gives the Dark Lord a clue as to Gondolin's location. So for me there is better link between the release of Hurin and Morgoth's plans to find and destroy Gondolin than there is between releasing him as a way of somehow furthering the destruction of Doriath.

Originally posted by Macalaure
Furthering the hatred between Elves and Men in general, and Doriath and Men in particular, by releasing Húrin was one step in it.


The rift between Elves and Men (apart from the three Houses of the Edain) had already been achieved by the treachery of Ulfang and co in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men? If that is what Morgoth was aiming for then it would underline his inability to grasp the concept of pity and his underestimation of the power of Melian. It is pity that restrains Thingol's wrath when Hurin appears in Doriath speaking his "wild and bitter words". It is in Menegroth "defended still by the Girdle of Melian" that Hurin is able to see the truth concerning what has happened to him and his family.
That said, for me Hurin's visit to Doriath has more to do with Hurin than Morgorth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?

Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.

And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.

[Morwen]

Quote:
"Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Iluvatar". In any event Men have the power to shape their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur". Taking these things together, how can Morgoth foresee what Hurin may or may not do?


Because Morgoth is hyperintelligent. Like the chessmaster- he doesn't have a crystal ball, but he can predict with accuracy how his opponent will react in various situations. Simply deduction, not prophecy.





How would hyperintelligence allow Morgoth to deduce that Hurin's visit would be to Doriath's detriment? It doesn't inevitably follow that because Hurin visited Doriath that it would somehow be ruined.


And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention. Whetehr Morgoth anticipated the specific manner or not, he knew that Hurin would infect Doriath with hate and malice. Hurin by the time he was released had become Morgoth's creature without knowing it- although he thought he was opposing him, doing evil from from evil motives redounds to the Devil's triumph.


If it is your contention that the bringing of the Nauglamir is not properly part of the story, then Hurin's contribution to Doriath's destruction moves from being indirect to non existent.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh, come on. It was always part of the story that Hurin brought the hoard of Nargothrond, from which the Nauglamir was made- cursed by the dragon, by Mim, and by Hurin himself.

How could Morgoth see that Hurin would bring evil with him within the Girdle? Because that's how Tolkien's moral universe works. The taint of Melkorism is rather like a virus- see Aldarion and Erendis. Morgoth's seeds and lies take root and grow. Hurin would do evil, or precipitate it, because he was by now an evil creature: Morgoth had made him that way. His actions in Brethil make that perfectly clear. Even a non-hyperintelligent being could see that Hurin's approach to Thingol wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy. And if you accept the 1977 text as authoritative, then Melian's 'healing' necessarily implies that Hurin needed to be healed of something.

[Morwen]

As I stated earlier, I don't regard Hurin's presence in Doriath as the sine qua non of its destruction. Doriath's doom arises through its connection with the Silmaril. If we leave aside the question of the Nauglamir, I don't see how anything that Hurin does or says has any bearing on Doriath's eventual fate and his 'taint' is therefore is irrelevant.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

hmmm Doriath might have fallen anyways. . .probably would have actually, but we do not know.

The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".

[Macalaure]

Doubtless Morgoth wanted Doriath destroyed. I just don't see that as his reason for releasing Hurin. If we are talking about the destruction of Gondolin, that I can see.
Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?


Could Hurin, angry and insulting, have widened the rift to include the Edain (or at least the remnants of the Houses)? What could he have done, one man against a powerful Elf Kingdom? Was Morgoth hoping that Hurin's anger all by itself could change Thingol's evolved opinion of Men?
As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).

[Raynor]

I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.

I believe you are overestimating him at that time. The closer we get to the end of the first age, the more we find Melkor in a more fallen state. One of the very reasons why the valar attacked is that Melkor became weak in mind. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien comes close to equating evil with stupid (when discussing how Sauron could not understand Gandalf). He is described as consumed by hate and having no plan but a destruction of everything (including his own "creatures"); at times, Sauron achieves some of the things that Melkor "did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice". Although Melkor started very endowed, we really cannot discard the increasing negative effect of his malice upon all his gifts, his reason first and foremost.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by Rune
The fact is that Hurin brings the Naulamir to Doriath and had he not done that. . .well everything could have happened. I know that you wanted to look aside from this, but I don't think it is possible to do so. You cannot just cut the most important part away and say "other than that there is nothing of importance".


That is a point that you'll want to take up with William Cloud Hickli

Originally posted by William Cloud Hickli
And again- Tolkien never wrote that Hurin brough the Nauglamir to Menegroth. That was CT's invention.


Not the only reason, of course. I certainly wouldn't say that Morgoth foresaw the destruction of Doriath as it came to be, no matter how intelligent he was. He didn't even know that the Silmaril sealed Doriath's doom, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said, just because he lacked a clear plan it doesn't mean that furthering the destruction of Doriath, in a general way, was not the main goal.

I think there is no mention that Morgoth expected Hurin to show him the way to Gondolin. He had scouts following him and was more than happy to hear the news, but the purpose of the release remains to further the hatred between Elves and Men. Maybe Hurin's going to Gondolin was more than Morgoth hoped for?


Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Originally posted by Macalaure
As WCH said, Hurin did manage to cause quite some trouble in Brethil. I don't think it would be farfetched for Morgoth to assume that an angry and insulting Hurin would cause Thingol to think different of the Edain. This wouldn't have caused the ruin of Doriath (not in the actual way it happened anyway), but advanced it - a little.


It's interesting that you bring up Sauron and Gollum and the concept of pity. There are certain parallels between Gollum and Hurin, I think. Both are released from their respective Dark Lord with similar goals: Finding the way to Gondolin (yes, I'm contradicting myself here - for analogy's sake) and causing whatever troubles to Elves and Men, and helping the Ringwraiths find the Ring and causing whatever troubles to the ringbearers. Of course, Sauron's hopes were betrayed more than Morgoth's, but in both cases they were betrayed due to pity (Frodo/Thingol). I have the impression that the inability to grasp the concept of pity is one main trait of evil in Tolkien's world, maybe even in general (but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread).



(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I'd like to avoid the whole Nauglamir argument that's going on, because I'm the chess amateur William Cloud Hickli mentioned before, and skip back to what the Dark Elf contributed to the conversation a while back.
I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.
One also has to wonder about Melian's awareness of these things. If it were fate for Carcharoth to pass the Girdle, would she have precognition of it: i.e. was it impossible for her to stop it, because she knew it would happen no matter what? She predicted that Beren would arrive in Doriath, so he was not hindered when he arrived, alone and unintentionally trespassing. Much the same, she might have known that Carcharoth was heading into Doriath, but (look out! a digression!) like Beren, he was unwitting in his trespass, and didn't need to be hindered, and wasn't directly attacking the kingdom.
That ties into something Rikae said earlier:
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?
Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth. I think that has quite a lot to do with Beren and Carcharoth (not to draw too many parallels between the two) unwittingly wandering into Doriath, without knowing specifically that they had crossed the Girdle of Melian. They were alone and, for the most part, unarmed. Now if Morgoth, on the other hand, had gathered all his forces and directly attacked Doriath, Melian's Girdle would have been strengthened for war, and she could have held back at least some of Morgoth's forces. It wasn't just one lone Man or Wolf wandering in through the mists.
It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.

[Raynor]

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth.
I believe it has already been mentioned before that Melkor feared for his body, that is why he avoided combat.
It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.
I don't think that this analogy is valid. Defense lines can be crossed it there is a lack of awareness, something I doubt can applied to matters of enchantment. The text is rather specific in that respect (emphasis added):
Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia.
Beren passed because fate was on his side:
And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.
A rather similar case has been made for Carcharoth, with the mentioning that the power of the silmaril was a factor in his trespassing.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight, or more likely, being the wolfish predator he was, Morgoth would have had to exert far more of his own personal power in overcoming the Girdle than merely relying on his minions to circumvent it. Such an extravagant exertion of personal power might have been beyond Morgoth's ability as he had expended it lavishly in previous ages.

P.S. With a grin I note this is my one-hundred and eleventieth post. Cheers to Bilbo!

[Raynor]

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight
I agree
And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.
Another interesting aspect of this quote is this: Hurin tastes the fullness of woe. This reinforces the quote I gave regarding the purpose of Hurin's release: to further Melkor's hate of Elves and Men, not to act as weapon in the actual fall of Doriath as it has been argued.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

But Tolkien didn't write that passage. There's no suggestion of any healing at all- this whole business was written by Christopher (in consultation with Guy Kay).

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:
Who now knows the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, the dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding far more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest among them feared.

The chessmaster indeed! And it continues...save Melian the Queen. To her often his thought reached out, and was foiled

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover, Gondolin still stood, but it was hidden. Doriath he knew, but could not enter yet

[Morthoron]

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover,

Gondolin still stood, but it was hidden. Doriath he knew, but could not enter yet

Well, a 'girdle' by its very nature is restrictive and tends to hide that which the wearer would prefer not to be seen. Another uplifting use of a word by Tolkien.

[Raynor]

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:
Why is it "still very great"? And I really don't see how this helps your case; Myths Transformed mention that he couldn't finnish several of his actions due to the fury of his malice, and Sauron had to do them instead. Although the wise may be impressed by what he achieved, not all the credit goes to him. And even if it did, you still have to prove that he figured out and planned all the fall of Doriath. Even if it were possible for him to do that, it doesn't mean he actually did it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Why is it "still very great"?

Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.


I don't believe he planned the Fall of Doriath in detail. But he did know that Hurin would bring hate and malice with him, which would bear fruit; and far more powerfully than did young Turin, who only precipitated the death of Saeros and his own exile. And if the Oath and the Kinslaying played roles, well, Morgoth was behind those too.

[Raynor]

Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.The quote first appears in the Silmarillion, in Of Turin Turambar. I am not aware it appears in Tolkien's own writings.
I don't believe he planned the Fall of Doriath in detail. But he did know that Hurin would bring hate and malice with him, which would bear fruit; and far more powerfully than did young Turin, who only precipitated the death of Saeros and his own exile. And if the Oath and the Kinslaying played roles, well, Morgoth was behind those too.We are going in circles. Hurin himself brought little if any malice, as it has been covered more than once already. As for the hoard, oath and the kinslaying arguments, they are, as I mentioned from my first post, seeds of evil which develop independently from Melkor's will. One could even argue that there is no evidence that Melkor planned and caused the hoard to be cursed, the oath to be taken and the kinslaying to occur; nor that he continue to control their chains of events towards the destruction of Doriath.

[Macalaure]

Yes, it's possible that Morgoth may have had such a plan, but from my reading of the text I have to ask "Is it likely?"

Well, I've read the text, too, and my reading tells me that it is. ;)

As I said, I don't argue that Morgoth planned or foresaw the ruin as it came to be, just that he sent out Húrin with the intent to harm in particular Doriath.


As for the Gondolin question I don't think it's coincidence that Morgoth, who knows or at least has good reason to suspect that Hurin knows the whereabouts of Gondolin, has him followed. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for Morgoth to assume that Hurin, alone and friendless, might possibly seek out aid from those in the Hidden Kingdom. I don't think that Hurin going to Gondolin is more than Morgoth hoped for. I think it is precisely what he did hope for.

Of course Morgoths suspects Húrin of knowing the whereabouts of Gondolin. But Húrin managed to conceal his knowledge from Morgoth for decades. Was it reasonable for Morgoth to think that Húrin would now be so unwise? The fact that Húrin is followed isn't necessarily evidence, because he would have spied on him in either case, and other than that I don't see anything in the text that suggests this was Morgoth's hope.


(1) What trouble in Brethil are you referring to?

Oh, I'm sorry. :) It's from the HoME 11, The War of the Jewels. To put it very short: After Morwen died Húrin goes to Brethil, where his grief and his stubbornness trigger events that lead to the end of the descendants of Haleth.


(2) I would have to think less of Thingol if one angry man is enough to change his view of an entire people, especially as Hurin at that point can't be said to be speaking for any of the Edain.

Sure, from our point of view. But we're talking about Morgoth's one.


(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

It is very relevant, I absolutely agree. And I think that Morgoth did miscalculate exactly that.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

(3) I do think pity is very relevant. If Morgoth is indeed relying on Hurin's anger as a 'weapon' then he miscalculates, failing to see that when confronted by the anger of a man who has lost everything, Thingol and Melian might see past that anger to the fact that he has lost everything.

It is very relevant, I absolutely agree. And I think that Morgoth did miscalculate exactly that.



Arrrgghhhhh! How many times does it have to be repeated? Tolkien never, ever, said that! Not once in any authentic writing did he suggest that Hurin was met with pity or healing. Indeed, in the original Tale and again in the Qenta Noldorinwa, the only narratives written, Thingol treats him with scorn and contempt. In the last version of the incident Tolkien himself ever wrote, the Later Annals of Beleriand, "Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words." And if you think Tolkien's view of his character mellowed over time, you'd be dead wrong- this is where The Wanderings of Hurin (ca. 1960) are important. Hurin there is a bitter, vengeful old man, watching with sardonic amusement the fratricidal bloodbath he precipitated in Brethil. If he enjoyed the destruction of the House of Haleth, how much more must he have wished harm on Thingol!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Quote:Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.

The quote first appears in the Silmarillion, in Of Turin Turambar. I am not aware it appears in Tolkien's own writings.

Much of Ch. 21 was perforce taken from the Narn papers, which are the source-material for The Children of Hurin. But Christopher today thinks that the Christopher of the 1970s took far too many liberties with his father's manuscripts, and has said many times, in print and out, that the Children of Hurin is with a few minor exceptions his father's words verbatim- much more so than was the case with the Narn in Unfinished Tales. I would accord the Children of Hurin canonical status above Unfinished Tales and just below HoME- and of course far, far above Chapter 22 of the 1977 text, which Christopher largely made up from whole cloth.

[Raynor]

Well, if we are going canonical, then whatever Chris wrote, it has the full, official, backing of the professor. He can modify, publish, or delete anything and everything. Anyway, even if, for the sake of argument, we disregard Tolkien's position regarding Chris, you still have to prove that Melkor planned and controlled the chain of events. However, by and large, you already admitted that was not the case.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

My position is straightforward and hardly complicated- Morgoth released the twisted, ruined Hurin to become a moral Typhoid Mary directed principally at Doriath. Is that not the case?

[Raynor]

My position is straightforward and hardly complicated- Morgoth released the twisted, ruined Hurin to become a moral Typhoid Mary directed principally at Doriath.
"Straightforward position" and "moral Typhoid Mary" in the same phrase? That is a bit amusing for a non-native speaker like me ;). On the topic: that Hurin was released to be a "hate factor", I agreed with back when I quoted the reason why he was released. The case in point is the degree of control that Melkor had over the fall of Doriath. You previously argued he was "hyper intelligent", and thus he had the means. However, as I pointed previously, the horde, oath and kinslaying that you invoked were correlated to Melkor, but he did not create and control them. I'm afraid that, at this point, I said as much as I could on this subject.

[Morwen]

Arrrgghhhhh! How many times does it have to be repeated? Tolkien never, ever, said that! Not once in any authentic writing did he suggest that Hurin was met with pity or healing. Indeed, in the original Tale and again in the Qenta Noldorinwa, the only narratives written, Thingol treats him with scorn and contempt. In the last version of the incident Tolkien himself ever wrote, the Later Annals of Beleriand, "Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words." And if you think Tolkien's view of his character mellowed over time, you'd be dead wrong- this is where The Wanderings of Hurin (ca. 1960) are important. Hurin there is a bitter, vengeful old man, watching with sardonic amusement the fratricidal bloodbath he precipitated in Brethil. If he enjoyed the destruction of the House of Haleth, how much more must he have wished harm on Thingol!

I'm aware that there are those who believe that Of the Ruin of Doriath doesn't have a legitimate place within the Tolkien canon. However, whatever handwringing and agonising that Christopher may have done post 1977 he has never sought to revise the tale and at this point it is unlikely that he will do so. So what are we left with? Am I to understand that I cannot discuss a view of Doriath's destruction presented in a thirty year old work edited by Tolkien's literary executor?