Dwarf-phobia?

[Cúdae]

Did Celeborn have dwarf-phobia? I was just looking through Unfinished Tales and I can't help but notice that Celeborn didn't exactly like Dwarves. At all. He didn't want anything to do with them. Later, in the Lord of the Rings, he spoke almost angrily with Gimli. Is there any explanation for this anti-dwarf attitude?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Celeborn was from Doriath.

Doriath was effectively destroyed by Dwarves from Belegost.

Diagram anyone?

[Cúdae]

Good point. But Celeborn needs a more open mind. The dwarves from Moria had nothing to do with the destruction of Doriath and most certaintly Gimli did not!

Besides, it doesn't seem in Celeborn's nature to hold a grudge for so long. But then again, exactly how long is long to an elf?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Who's to say that the Dwarves of Moria/Erebor weren't all refugees of Belegost?

And I don't think we had enough examples of Celeborn's actual personality to know what he's like...

[akhtene]

By the way, dwarves don't usually display much affection to elves either (Gimli being a fine example) His attitude only changes after meeting Galadriel. Just an example of racism??

[Cúdae]

Interesting, I was really only looking at the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales and the notes that accompany it. Take this for example:
Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlorien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sarn Arthrad. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear of its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dum. Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.
So that explains Celeborn anti-Dwarf feelings (although he is holding a grudge against all the Dwarves when most aren't even the race that deserve it). And it explains that the Nogrod Dwarves and the Belegost Dwarves were not close kin.

You can find that little quote on page 246 of the Del Rey paperback edition of Unfinished Tales. It is located in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in the section entitled "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn."

[Frodo Baggins]

Well,

Thingol king of Doriath was killed by the dwarves on the assult on Doriath. Thingol was Celeborn's great-uncle, and from what I gather, those two were pretty close. I can have some sympathies for Celeborn.

[Cúdae]

All right, all right, so Celeborn had some good reasons for not liking Dwarves. But now I have a new problem! Up there somewhere, Manwe seemed to imply that the Dwarves of Belegost destroyed Doriath. But the quote I just took from Unfinished Tales says it was those lovely Nogrod Dwarves. I'm not too familiar with which Dwarves did what, so if some one wants to clear this up, it would be appreciated.

I have now officially confused myself.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Cúdae ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

Err...I was speaking from (stretched) memory. It could have been Nogrod, I don't even remember.

Not that it's even relevent to this discussion, but...hey.

[Arwen Imladris]

Didn't Celeborn eventually let Gimli through? comon, give the, er elf some credit here!

[Cúdae]

I am giving Celeborn some credit! He did let Gimli through (he really had no other choice by that time). I am just trying to find the root of the problem and what happened afterwards.
That was the understatement of the year.

In any case, I am quite sure it was those Nogrod Dwarves that ruined Doriath.

I'm still confused--and I have no idea about what.

[Vanya]

It can also be discussed that Thranduil showed no great love for Dwarves either, and niether did his son, Legolas, until he devolped a friendship with Gimli. Thranduil, or at least his family, came also from Doriath. smilies/wink.gif

[Kuruharan]

In any case, I am quite sure it was those Nogrod Dwarves that ruined Doriath.

Yes, it was the Nogrod Dwarves.

Didn't Celeborn eventually let Gimli through? comon, give the, er elf some credit here!

Just because his wife made him! smilies/tongue.gif

[lathspell]

Well, you've talked about Doriath being destroyed, and about Gimli. I find the quote of Cudae very useful. About the Dwarves going from the Blue Mountains to Moria. For afterwards it was in Moria that 'they dug to deep' and there they awakened Durin's Bane. The Dwarves were killed and the Elves of Eregion, where Celebrimbor had made the Rings of Power, had to flee away from that land. According to the UT Celeborn and Galadriel had lived there for some period.
So two elderly homes of Celeborn were directly or indirectly destroyed by the Dwarves.

Yet for Galadriel it is the same. She lived long in Doriath, and with Celeborn she went to Eregion and recieved an Elven Ring. Two elderly homes of her were destroyed as well.

I think the greatest distress to Celeborn must have been the fact that Thingol was killed by the Dwarves. Three great disasters struck him because of the Dwarves. And that's why he was filled with angre and doubt against all Dwarves.
Yet another question is: why was Galadriel not like Celeborn. I think that was because she was one of the Wise, and therefore understood the need of the Fellowship better than Celeborn. Another reason maybe that she held Nenya, ring of Adamant.

This is my view on these things.

greetings,
lathspell

[Lady_Báin]

Well, we could say that there a few elves that held grudges but those who did held them for ever, making silly oaths and things(*cough*fëanor*cough*). But i think the main point is that he just didn't like dwarves (racism?) for the aboved named reasons, Gimli was in no way personally responsible for the destruction of their relatives and land, but the general dislike between the races did not help.

[Dimaldaeon]

Lathspell did you just say thatthe dwarves awakening the Balrog in Moria led to the elves fleeing Eregion.
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!
Do you fail to remember the small matter of Sauron pretty much wiping Eregion off the face of the map in the second age? The dwarves didn't awaken the balrog until mid third age, long after the elves had left Eregioin and for the most part Middle Earth

[Atariel]

It's hardly surprising that Celeborn hated dwarves: all dwarves are related to the dwarves of belegost, because they're all in-bred, aren't they? besides, if Celeborn was married to the second most beautiful being ever to live (after Luthien), it's hardly surprising that he was phobic of ugly, stunted men.

[Kuruharan]

they're all in-bred, aren't they

So is everybody else if you want to get right down to it.

besides, if Celeborn was married to the second most beautiful being ever to live (after Luthien), it's hardly surprising that he was phobic of ugly, stunted men.

Just because he was married to a beautiful elf (I expect that Arwen was the second most beautiful since she was almost a reincarnation of Luthien) does not necessarily mean that he would have a seething hatred of dwarves.

[Cúdae]

I am still very confused, but I am going to try to make some sense of everything everyone has said.

So basically, Celeborn had suffered a lot at the hands of Dwarves--ancestors of the Dwarves in the Lord of the Rings, but Dwarves nonetheless. All right, I have got that part down. smilies/smile.gif But where in the world is this discussion going? Galadriel and Arwen are equally beautiful, end of story, neither side can yell at me. smilies/smile.gif

And I have another Celeborn-and-Dwarf question: Did Celeborn not say something along the lines of, "If I had known you had awakened the Balrog in Moria, I would not have allowed you to enter." I don't have my books close at hand, so I can't tell you what the exact quote is or what comes after it, but does it not show that the anti-Dwarf thing took over a little too much of his mind right at that moment? I could be wrong, since it wasn't just Gimli he was talking too though.

I've confused myself yet again. smilies/smile.gif

[Kuruharan]

But where in the world is this discussion going?

Hee, hee, hee, hee... smilies/wink.gif

Galadriel and Arwen are equally beautiful, end of story, neither side can yell at me.

Bawh, hawh, hawh, hawh, hawh! If only you knew! smilies/evil.gif

Celeborn had suffered a lot at the hands of Dwarves

I'm not even sure that Celeborn himself had suffered so much at the hands of Dwarves. He just happened to be in the area seemingly every single time there was any conflict between Dwarves and Elves and he naturally sided with his own people.

Well, maybe the Balrog thing was not exactly a conflict, but anyway...

but does it not show that the anti-Dwarf thing took over a little too much of his mind right at that moment?

Yes, the Elf was clearly prejudiced against my folk.

However, being the kind forgiving people that we are we stuck a whoopee cushion in his chair, spraypainted DWARVEZ RULE!! on the side of his tree, tore up his golf course, and then ran away laughing like fools! HA! "Dwarves breathe so loud we could shoot them in the dark," my foot!

*Ahem!* Anyway, I hope that the above allayed your fears about where this thread was going...

[Legolas]

The dwarves demolished Doriath.

The dwarves awoke Durin's Bane. Durin's Bane causes Gandalf to pass away. Gandalf is a friend of Celeborn/Galadriel and vital to the opposition of Sauron, as Galadriel was well aware (and probably shared with Celeborn).

Still no redeeming qualities for the dwarves that Celeborn is aware of.

The diagram Manwe spoke of documents Celeborn and his relations with the dwarves. Observe:

http://ulmo.onestop.net/celeborn.jpg

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[WarBringer]

Its a stereo type- after doriath was destroyed,celeborn began to hate-not fear-all dwarves. if u think about it, he has a right to hate dwarves

[Kuruharan]

Very cute. However, I meant that the Dwarves had not ever really personally harmed Celeborn. They just wrought (some) incidental havoc that affected Celeborn in one way or another.

[lathspell]

Dimaldaeon: You are right. It was nonsense what I was saying. Quite stupid indeed. It must have been late smilies/wink.gif

*feeling as stupid as he hasn't felt for a long time*

[Man-of-the-Wold]

This all seems a bit silly of a discussion.

As the UT quote rightly shows Celeborn had an understandable grudge from the part that the Nogrodrim played in the destruction Doriath. That is clearly the greatest of calamities between the Drawves and Elves, since their they killed many, including Thingol and later Mablung unjustly.

But among the Wise, they would recognize that the Dwarves involved were somewhat excused anyway, because Thingol bears some blame for what happened, and the curse on the Silmirils was as work. Nevertheless, Celeborn may be excused for not always remembering this or that not all of the Houses of the Dwarves were directly at fault.

Still, troubles between the Dwarves and the Elves ran much deeper. Before then, there had been conflict, and it seems that some of Thranduil's issues related to things that had happened during the Second and Third age with groups of Dwarves, perhaps Houses other than Durin's that had had mansions elsewhere in the Rhovanion. His halls were built by Dwarves, or stolen from.

I think in many ways Tolkien shows the enmity between Dwarves and Elves to be very much a reaction first and foremost to how different they were from one another. While we may praise Celebrimbor, Galadriel and Finrod for trying to bridge the gap, and appreciateing Dwarves for who they were.

But clearly Celeborn is as capable of error and stubborness in such matters as Thorin and his companions were. Both sides are guilty of greed. Where the Elves are less so the make up for with arrogance.

[Cúdae]

All right then. My perpetually confused mind seems to be grasping all this. In other words, it is reaching the part of mind that actually thinks.

To clear up something: When I said that Celeborn had suffered much at the hands of Dwarves, I did not mean physically, but more psychologically.

Let's not get started on Thranduil. He has way more issues than just some anti-Dwarf feelings. Unfortunately, I went through a frightening stage of obsession with Thranduil a few years back. So, in other words, don't get me started. smilies/smile.gif

[Kuruharan]

This all seems a bit silly of a discussion.

Silly? smilies/wink.gif smilies/tongue.gif

they killed...Mablung unjustly

I fear I must politely take exception to that. While the reasons that the Dwarves were there may have been unjust, it's a bit much to say that Mablung was killed unjustly. They were in combat after all. It's not as if it was murder (as in the case of Thingol). Mablung had his chance to defend himself, and no doubt did so well. However, since he was trying to take the head off the Dwarf that killed him I don't think that one can say he died unjustly.

My complements on the rest of your post.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Granted, I didn't mean unjust in the sense of murder vs. combat. Clearly, Mablung was in a combat situation. But despite Thingol's errors and the work of the Doom, the Dwarves involved I feel were unjust in both their attacks, first on Thingol and then later. I do not think that the Elves wrongly initiated violence either in hounding Thingol's killers or the attack at Sarn Asthad led by Berren. I think the refusal of the Dwarf House at Belegost to seek vengence points to the unjustness of what the Nogrodrim did, but still Celeborn's grudge is not wise or just either, especially after so much time, and in view of the great bravery and sacrifices by the House Durin. But compared to the Sons of Feanor, the Drarves were fricking saints.

[Morsul the Dark]

I wouldn't be fond of a people who destroyed my home, as men we usually have several generations separating us from such horrors, but elves being immortal were there and therefore the hurt is more personal