Arwen vs. Galadriel

[MatthewM]

Two beautiful Elven ladies-

Éomer chose Arwen, Gimli chose Galadriel.

Who would you say is fairest? (Keep your axes at home!)

[Ghazi]

After I see them I'll let you know.

[Finduilas]

After I see them I'll let you know.

Lol!

Well, movie wise, Galadriel. In the books, probably Arwen, because I like Eomer better than Gimli;). Actually, I think that dark hair is very beautiful, so, yeh.

[Andsigil]

Movie-wise, I'll say Arwen. There was one part in the film where she was particularly beautiful: in the "Fellowship", when Aragorn was replacing the shards of Narsil and Arwen walked in to comfort and advise him.

That maturity reflected her age and (certainly) her accumulated wisdom from such a long life. For the rest of the trilogy, she sat around on a couch, brooding and crying, unfortunately. But that part with Aragorn, somehow, made her incredibly beautiful.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

In the movies: Deffinitly Galadriel. . .

In the books: GALADRIEL ! ! ! I am like Gimli here. . .if anyone says a anything against me beloved Galadriel, then I shall hunt them down and make them eat their own words.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Movie-wise I was annoyed by Arwen, especially in the 'ranger caught off his' --- no I won't say it! ;) Book wise, Arwen was a bit of a sook who really only made a banner and sacrificed her immortality (pfft, anyone can do that :D) Galadriel, however, was a butt-kicking, intelligent, powerful temptress, who could rebel against the Valar and woo dwarves! The latter being the more impressive and sacrificial...

Anywho, Galadriel all the way.

[Raynor]

Arwen's beauty is akin to Luthien's
So it was that Frodo saw her whom few mortals had yet seen; Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undomiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.
while Galadriel is simply described as beautiful
Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful.
True enough, the Silmarillion mentions Galadriel as the most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.

[Morwen]

In the movies: Deffinitly Galadriel. . .

In the books: GALADRIEL ! ! ! I am like Gimli here. . .if anyone says a anything against me beloved Galadriel, then I shall hunt them down and make them eat their own words.

Now Rune, even Gimli, he of the "Three Hairs", had to concede that Eomer had a point when the latter pointed out that Galadriel, when seen in Arwen's company, had to take second place. :)

So as far as the books go - Arwen, though given how unusually beautiful Galadriel's hair colour is said to be (gold with silvery highlights as if it had trapped the light of the Two Trees ) she might stake a claim to having the world's most beautiful hair.

[Finduilas]

Movie-wise I was annoyed by Arwen, especially in the 'ranger caught off his' --- no I won't say it! Book wise, Arwen was a bit of a sook who really only made a banner and sacrificed her immortality (pfft, anyone can do that :D) Galadriel, however, was a butt-kicking, intelligent, powerful temptress, who could rebel against the Valar and woo dwarves! The latter being the more impressive and sacrificial...

Anywho, Galadriel all the way.

For the first part, I agree with you entirely.

As to the second part, at least half of it was false. (Butt-kicking? Wooing Dwarves?:eek:) Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(even though that many exclaimation points in a row are gramatically incorrect...:rolleyes:)

Not to make an arguement of it, you are free to have your own opinions, Galadriel didn't do much more than Arwen in the LotR, and mostly what she did in the Silm was act like a silly adventure seeker who wanted to see new lands. ( I realise this may sound mean, but don't take it that way. Galadriel's is cool, and I'm not even totally sure which I like better, Arwen or Galariel.)

On an other hand, mayby not THE other hand, I also understand that you may not have been entirely serious when you wrote that, or you may have been a very small amount sarcastic( and I don't mean that sarcasticly(sp))

Am I making myself at all clear? I always feel as if I sound ticked off or fault finding when I write these kinds of posts, while that's not at all how I mean them. I just happen to like silly little debates about nothing.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Arwen's beauty is akin to Luthien's

while Galadriel is simply described as beautiful

True enough, the Silmarillion mentions Galadriel as the most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.

These quotes will do you no good as this thread is about who we think is the fairest. . .not who is described as being the most beautiful.

and you must not forget that beauty is a subjective thing. . . so even though Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.

Now Rune, even Gimli, he of the "Three Hairs", had to concede that Eomer had a point when the latter pointed out that Galadriel, when seen in Arwen's company, had to take second place

Gimli forgave Eomer of his words, but I do not think that he admited to Arwen being fairer. . . and neither will I !

[Finduilas]

These quotes will do you no good as this thread is about who we think is the fairest. . .not who is described as being the most beautiful.

and you must not forget that beauty is a subjective thing. . . so even though Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.



Gimli forgave Eomer of his words, but I do not think that he admited to Arwen being fairer. . . and neither will I !

It wasn't forgiving Eomer, it was mearly understanding what you said in your second paragraph. Beauty is a subjective thing.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It wasn't forgiving Eomer, it was mearly understanding what you said in your second paragraph. Beauty is a subjective thing.

exactly! and after realising this he forgave him :smokin:

[Raynor]

Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.
Hm, but without any image of either of them, what would make particular "ratings" differ? After all, this "universal" standard of beauty does seem to exist in Arda. As for Gimli, it may be that he liked Galadriel more due to their... "history"/empathy. Well, not that I want to spoil your guys' fun :).

[Lindale]

They are beautiful in their own rights. Movie and book. Although the part of me thinking that Galadriel is really superior to Arwen in many ways (like the wisdom of many ages) makes me biased in favor of the Lady of the Golden Wood. :)

[Boromir88]

Finduilas, actually Rune wasn't joking about Galadriel's powerful butt-kicking temptress. Tolkien says Galadriel is the most powerful of the Noldor save for Feanor...must be a pretty good butt-kicker to get that award....
'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; History of Galadriel and Celeborn
This might be inconsistant with what is in The Silmarillion, because Christopher remarks that his father revised Galadriel and Celeborn's story a bit more and made them 'more important.'

Now as far as Gimli's fatuation with Galadriel...I think it is a classic example of 'amour courtois' or 'courtly love.' The amour courtois was a popular style of poetry starting in France around the 12th century and going on for nearly 200 years. It is the classical story of a lowly, or 'inferior' person's admiration for an aristocratic lady who he knows is unobtainable. The amour courtois is actually seen as one of the truer love, as it is about the love and admiration between two people. It is not someone who only falls in love with another, because of another term of the time...'chanson de geste' (or 'songs of war.')...meaning someone falls in love because of another person's 'greatness' or 'feets of courage in war.'

Interesting as we can apply Eowyn's 'love' for Aragorn falling under 'chanson de geste.' Eowyn doesn't love Aragorn because of Aragorn himself, she loves what Aragorn is, not who he is. She sees Aragorn as this great man that could give her what she wants...and that is getting her out of 'her cage.' But, as all happy endings go Eowyn finds her own boy toy Faramir. :p

Where Gimli's admiration for Galadriel is sparked because of Galadriel's beauty and kindness to Gimli, not because he sees Galadriel as someone who could be used to his own glory/benefit. Hence why Galadriel gives Gimli three strands of her hair when he asks, and why she sends Feanor packing.

[Sir Kohran]

Movie-wise, I'll say Arwen. There was one part in the film where she was particularly beautiful: in the "Fellowship", when Aragorn was replacing the shards of Narsil and Arwen walked in to comfort and advise him.

That maturity reflected her age and (certainly) her accumulated wisdom from such a long life. For the rest of the trilogy, she sat around on a couch, brooding and crying, unfortunately. But that part with Aragorn, somehow, made her incredibly beautiful.


I agree, though I think she's most beautiful either when the Fellowship are about to leave Rivendell (http://www.warofthering.net/quintessential/decipher_cards/008_arwenladyundomiel.jpg), or when Aragorn has the flashback (http://www.warofthering.net/quintessential/movieshots_ttt/comingsoon_arwenwhitedress.jpg).

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Hm, but without any image of either of them, what would make particular "ratings" differ? After all, this "universal" standard of beauty does seem to exist in Arda. As for Gimli, it may be that he liked Galadriel more due to their... "history"/empathy. Well, not that I want to spoil your guys' fun :).

Even if Tolkien had written "Arwen is the fairest, it is not up for debate", this thread asks you to look beyond that!

Who did you find to be more beautiful in the movies?

And if you can still remember how you pictured the two when reading LotR for the very first time. . .who did you imagine to be most beautiful?

[The Sixth Wizard]

But, as all happy endings go Eowyn finds her own boy toy Faramir.

Heheh, when some beautiful powerful elf comes along and steals your secret love, swallow your pride and go for his best man.

On an other hand, mayby not THE other hand, I also understand that you may not have been entirely serious when you wrote that, or you may have been a very small amount sarcastic( and I don't mean that sarcasticly(sp))

Sarcastic? Moi? :D I'm never sarcastic, never...

[Raynor]

For me, it's Arwen, in both cases. Interestingly enough, an article in the Psychology Today, (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20070622-000002&print=1) argues that there are "objective" reasons for us to like blond girls, that is, we interpret the color of the hair to mean that person is younger. Of course, in this particular case, it couldn't be further from the truth...

Anyway, I would still like to mention that there really is no base for personal comparison, regardless the subjective/objective position, as there is simply is too little information. I presume that, like Gimli, we simply have to set aside our beauty standards, as we cannot apply them, and resort to how their story affected us each. That is, it seems to me that this thread is about who we liked most, not a beauty contest. But nevermind me now :D

[Rikae]

...Galadriel's hair colour is said to be (gold with silvery highlights as if it had trapped the light of the Two Trees ) she might stake a claim to having the world's most beautiful hair.

Gold with silver highlights?
*looks at own hair*

I never knew that going grey was a good thing! :D

I think that the way I pictured them, and also the way they were both depicted in the movie, represent such different types of beauty, it's almost an apples/oranges comparison. Galadriel is older; more powerful; more exotic; more elvish (genetically, even!); Arwen is youthful by comparison and more transitory (by choice) - she is a second Luthien in this sense, although Luthien was certainly more heroic. Galadriel is noon, Arwen is evening, I suppose; Galadriel seems to represent the glory of a time that is passing away, Arwen the ending itself and the transition.

I have to give my vote to Galadriel; but only for such subjective reasons as being a link to the Silmarillion and sharing my hair color. :p
Plus, she had a cooler house...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm... it's true that we don't have actually any solid information in the books which would seem to be enough for influencing our personal, subjective views. All we have is "This one was the fairest..." etc. One would say a reader can say who was fairest according to the book, but it seems very strange to think that a reader could form his own personal opinon (it will be interesting to ask f.ex. Rune on what he bases his choice). If we had a picture, then of course, you can say about a picture of Arwen that you think it more beautiful than that of Galadriel (or vice versa :) ). It may be that people are influenced in their subconscious by some illustration they have seen (not speaking at all of those who saw the film first), but someone may not? And in that case, is it just that people have formed in their mind the images of Arwen and Galadriel based on the narration, and so they in fact choose between their own two creations? Isn't that interesting?

And now to my answer to the main topic question, which will be probably more seen in the contrast of what I said above.. My opinion is formed very clearly. I'm all for Galadriel :p In the movie as well, but especially and mainly in book. Which brings an interesting question, if the opinion on the movie characters - whatever the actresses may look like - is "pre-influenced" by the choice made on the book characters? (of course only for those who have read the book prior to seeing the film)

[Finduilas]

Finduilas, actually Rune wasn't joking about Galadriel's powerful butt-kicking temptress. Tolkien says Galadriel is the most powerful of the Noldor save for Feanor...must be a pretty good butt-kicker to get that award....



My arguement was against the term "butt-kicking". I personally find this, though occasionally amusing, generally degrading and not at all the way I want to see a character. So if Galadriel was "butt-kicking" all the more reason to dislike her.

But also, was she a temptress? I mean really, if she was, she would have taken the ring.

Is it just me, or are people picking who they like better, or who they think are more pretty? It seems as if many are saying which they like better.

Oh, and I beleive it was Sixth Wizard not Rune who first said that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Is it just me, or are people picking who they like better, or who they think are more pretty? It seems as if many are saying which they like better.
Can you divide it like that? But this far I think only Six (and you, and some who reacted a little to it) made a discussion concerning other things than their looks...

[Finduilas]

Can you divide it like that?

Well I think so.

But this far I think only Six (and you, and some who reacted a little to it) made a discussion concerning other things than their looks...

Well yes, discussion, but my vote was for Arwen in the books and Galadriel in the movie, totally regardless of the characters of either.

[Lalwendë]

Heheh, when some beautiful powerful elf comes along and steals your secret love, swallow your pride and go for his best man.


Eowyn. Always the bridesmaid and never the bride ;)

Anyway, have you guys thought about how Galadriel's power might be a bit scary? She's always reminded me just a tiny bit of Maggie Thatcher. Not that there were communities of miners to smash in Lothlorien or a Liverpool to lay waste to, but that she was frighteningly powerful and enjoyed that power too. Celebrimbor tried to impress her with something that would give her even greater power. A bit like the Geoffrey Howe of Middle-earth? Meh-heh-heh...

Or do you find that kind of female power thrilling? ;)

Maybe she's also a bit like Hillary Clinton or Cherie Blair? Arwen is more like Sarah Brown. The inspiration behind Gords'/Aragorn's mission... :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

We, simple once-eastern-bloc folk, know Maggie only from second-hand rumour (twisted?) and from the songs of Roger Waters, therefore I will not even come to think of her when I imagine Galadriel's possible misuse of power... however, as Six said, there is that terrible image of Galadriel as temptress able to control everything she wants. However, the very important thing on her is that she rejected that choice - while the choice depended only on herself. In that I find, so to say, some sort of redemptive power, or how should I describe it. Some sort of an example, you know. I don't know, but I find that aspect very important. A beautiful lady who at first wants, but later rejects the power (in this case of the Ring, leading even to the rulership of whole Middle-Earth) is really stunning character, literally even more interesting than just someone who does not want the power in the first place (thus has it easy to reject it).

But I think we are getting faar off-topic here. This is exactly what Finduilas said about discussing characters and not looks. We should indeed discuss just who is the fairest. And even considering all I have said above about Galadriel's character, I still find her the one more beautiful just for the sake of it.

[Finduilas]

This seems to me as if it aught to be a poll.

Is there any Skwerl for off topicness?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

For myself, I never found Cate especially beautiful, and Liv is OK but no great shakes. I propose:

G- Grace Kelly or Ingrid Bergman
A- Hedy Lamarr or Liz Taylor (or Isabella if you cast her mama as G)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This seems to me as if it aught to be a poll.

Is there any Skwerl for off topicness?

I think it is an off-topic owl. ..

[MatthewM]

Just wanted to point out that I was referring more towards your own image of the characters from the books than the movies, but I see no wrong in comparing (through personal preference and opinion) the beauty of Liv vs. Cate - in which case I would have to go with Liv. Cate is not too far behind, however. :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien tells us the basic facts about the two ladies, but beauty is a factor that can't be described. Therefore, when reading the book, we can only see them through the eyes of the other characters. The words of the humblest of the Fellowship, Samwise, describing Galadriel, have always fascinated me: Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffydowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with flowers in her hair in springtime.
TT, 'The Window on the West'

I rather agree with those who think that comparing the two is like apples and oranges, but if I had to choose, it would probably be Galadriel because of the above passage.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

If, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien says that Galadriel was fairest of the House of Finwë, then that suggests that there must be a definite answer out there somewhere, and that it is not a matter of different opinions. Tolkien seems to say that the two are equally fair when he makes the analogy between morning and evening, so that would be my answer: equals.

(Although that raises the issue of who wrote the Silmarillion!)

[Knight of Gondor]

I honestly do not hold up either actress from the movies as a model of beauty. (Now Miranda Otto on the other hand...)

In the book, it's hard to say, having not seen either of them. I am sure that many of the impressions (such as of Eomer and Gimli) come not so much from appearance as from presence.

Galadriel had issues of her own from earlier Ages, and is obviously made of sterner stuff than Arwen. As a Ringbearer, her responsibility and experience was so much greater than Arwen, who was but a maiden of Imladris. She bore no Ring, nor responsibilities of leadership.

Arwen's love and devotion for Aragorn is to be admired, although her actions after the death of King Ellesar are a bit selfish. (Abandoning her children to wander Lothlorien in grief.)

[MatthewM]

Arwen's love and devotion for Aragorn is to be admired, although her actions after the death of King Ellesar are a bit selfish. (Abandoning her children to wander Lothlorien in grief.)

Were they really, though? I do not see her actions as selfish.

That would be a good question for a new topic, indeed.

[Knight of Gondor]

I was certain it had been already discussed, under a title like "Arwen not a good mom?" but a forum and a google search did not turn up anything.

[Boromir88]

Just a quick little correction if I may...I'm not as good at French as I used to be, it's been a while. Anyway:

'chanson de geste' actually translates to 'songs of heroic deeds.' In my post I said 'songs of war' but the French word for war is 'guerre.'

Just a little correction, I think this can still be applied to Eowyn, as she is more infatuated with Aragorn's impressive elven and dunedain friends...and she believes Aragorn can give the 'heroic/courageous' life she desires:
"Shall I always be chosen?" she said bitterly. "Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown find food and beds when they return?"~The Passing of the Grey Company

[Lalwendë]

What would be the male equivalent of an Arwen Vs Galadriel face-off?

Faramir Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Legolas?

:Merisu:

[Finduilas]

What would be the male equivalent of an Arwen Vs Galadriel face-off?

Faramir Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Legolas?

:Merisu:

Aragorn Vs Legolas.

[Boromir88]

None of them Lal...It would be

Denethor vs. Faramir

The hottest Steward vs. The hottest Steward's steamy son soaked in oil

:rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

No brainer then ..... Faramir..... soaked in oil or not ..... poor love, makes him seem like a cormorant in an oil slick ...however I have detergent.... :p

PS If it is a choice between (half) elf boys - then the Finrod/ Elrond choice would be tricksy...

[Lalwendë]

How about an Elrond/Faramir dilemma for you then, Mithalwen? :P

I think my choice would be the Faramir Vs Boromir face-off. T'would be no contest in terms of the films, but as for the books...flip...that's just too tough to answer....:confused:

I just wonder how many guys would prefer Arwen (or Xenarwen to give her the proper name as this is the film I am talking about now) if she had been played by say.......Keira Knightley? She seems so much more suited to Xenarwen than the lovely placid Liv.

[Andsigil]

How about an Elrond/Faramir dilemma for you then, Mithalwen? :P

I think my choice would be the Faramir Vs Boromir face-off. T'would be no contest in terms of the films, but as for the books...flip...that's just too tough to answer....:confused:

I just wonder how many guys would prefer Arwen (or Xenarwen to give her the proper name as this is the film I am talking about now) if she had been played by say.......Keira Knightley? She seems so much more suited to Xenarwen than the lovely placid Liv.

Hmmm... I wouldn't have preferred her.

Kiera Knightly has a chin like a boot-toe and one of the largest underbites in the film industry. Add to that her complete lack of feminine curves, and I don't see what people find attractive in her.

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm... I wouldn't have preferred her.

Kiera Knightly has a chin like a boot-toe and one of the largest underbites in the film industry. Add to that her complete lack of feminine curves, and I don't see what people find attractive in her.

Andsigil has the ladies flocking to his door now :D

I just couldn't believe Liv being a Warrior Princess - it didn't work for me. Maybe as she was so good at being ethereal it didn't seem right when she was being a Riot Grrl? Or maybe it's down to PJ having messed with the original roles too much? But Keira (however you spell her name ;) ) seems to have that tough/pretty thing down in spades - as seen in King Arthur and Pirates.

[Andsigil]

Andsigil has the ladies flocking to his door now :D

Married 16 years with 4 kids. Having successfully hunted my trophy, I am now free to be bluntly honest. :smokin:

[MatthewM]

Did someone say Keira Knightley?

...:)

[Andsigil]

Yes. But she's not really worth talking about for the above-listed reasons. ;)

A friend of mine told me that Claire Forlani was first considered to play Arwen. She has sufficiently "elvish" looks to her- and no boot-toe chin or underbite.

http://www.hissandpop.com/celebrities/f/claireforlani/photos/001.jpg

[MatthewM]

Yes. But she's not really worth talking about for the above-listed reasons. ;)

A friend of mine told me that Claire Forlani was first considered to play Arwen. She has sufficiently "elvish" looks to her- and no boot-toe chin or underbite.

http://www.hissandpop.com/celebrities/f/claireforlani/photos/001.jpg


Haha, I beg to differ about good Keira.

I could picture Claire as Arwen.

[Thinlómien]

Galadriel is more beautiful. Maybe Arwen's face is prettier, but she's nothing like her grandmother. Because it isn't just the features that (for me) tell how beautiful someone is, it's how she bears herself and how is her presence and what "shines through". Taking these things into account, Galadriel sure is more beutiful. Her powerful spirit, charisma and person just clearly override Arwen the Just-A-Prettygirl. Arwen is too passive to be a real striking beauty, if you ask me.

As to Keira Knightley... She is over-rated. I can't deny she's pretty, but she's no goddess (and I agree she's way too thin). I wouldn't have liked to see her as Arwen, because she really is a quite poor actor. Besides, I don't want anyone who says she will go to have plastic surgery at the age of 25 ("because then you start to get wrinkles") :rolleyes: to have anything to do with ME! (No, I don't hate KK, sorry if I sound like that... :))

[Lollipop010900]

I definatly think that Arwen is prettier, but Galadriel is fairest. Arwen has beautiful dark hair and dark blue eyes where Galadriel has blonde hair and pale eyes. They are both prety and i think Arwen is better because Galadriel just sits at home and does nothing where Arwen goes to Gondor and saves Frodo from the Nazgul (in the movie) Arwen 4ever:)

[Galadriel]

Galadriel, hands down. Even in the movies - I found Arwen to be rather bland, with little to no personality in her looks. Plus, Galadriel actually does stuff - a definite plus in attraction (at least to me).

[Galadriel55]

I agree with Gimli. (obviously! :rolleyes: 55 times, even! :p)

[Galadriel]

I agree with Gimli. (obviously! :rolleyes: 55 times, even! :p)

Any particular reason you like the number 55?

[Galin]

Any particular reason you like the number 55?


I like it because you have a five after a five, and a five before a five.


Try getting the same with 44 :p

[Galadriel55]

Any particular reason you like the number 55?

Because it's a whole number that comes after 54 and before 56, a multiple of 5 and 11, half of Nerwen's current age, five more than half a hundred, the number of bottles of beer on the wall after 1x45 of them have been "taken down and passed around"*...

ie, no particular reason.

*a very anoying song that goes "a hundred bottles of beer on the wall, a hundred bottles of beer! We take one down, pass it around, ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall! Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall, ninety-nine bottles of beer! We take one down, pass it around..." I haven't yet met anyone who has gotten to 1.

[Lollipop010900]

Book wise, it's Galadriel for me! Not because she is pretty but because she is powerful and actually does something. Arwen is a bit of a sook in the book because all she does is become a mortal and make a banner. In the movies, Arwen is way prettier, but Galadriel again is way more awesome.

[Glorthelion]

Arwen, because she is descended from Luthien the fairest elf to ever live. It says somewhere in the Lord of the Rings books that Arwen was the fairest since the time of Luthien.

[Galadriel55]

Arwen, because she is descended from Luthien the fairest elf to ever live. It says somewhere in the Lord of the Rings books that Arwen was the fairest since the time of Luthien.

Thing is, Galadriel is also said to be the fairest. It's like the competition between Treebeard and Tom B about who is older. ;)

[elbenprincess]

Yes, it is said that Galadriel was the "mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves" and IMHO Arwen was an elf, ntil she decided to become mortal and Gimli thought also that Galadriel was fairer and if Arwen really would look like Luthien, which she didn´t, she is said to walk in the likeness of Luthien, then there should be no doubt left who is fairer.

And beside the fairest thing, Galadriel is much more powerful and awesome and in one league with Feanor.

[cellurdur]

Yes, it is said that Galadriel was the "mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves" and IMHO Arwen was an elf, ntil she decided to become mortal and Gimli thought also that Galadriel was fairer and if Arwen really would look like Luthien, which she didn´t, she is said to walk in the likeness of Luthien, then there should be no doubt left who is fairer.

And beside the fairest thing, Galadriel is much more powerful and awesome and in one league with Feanor.

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

[Galadriel55]

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

She's certainly very beautiful, and those who know what they talk about say that she's Luthien reborn (not literally of course). However, she is not as potent as Luthien.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Certainly. I think that Arwen has an innate power of her own, albeit a lesser one than that of Luthien and Galadriel. The reason I prefer Galadriel over Arwen is not because one is more beautiful or has greater power. I just like Galadriel's portrayal better - and better than Luthien's too, by th way. To be honest, I like Morwen Eledhwen better than either of them, and, though she's beautiful and powerful in her own right, she's no match for an elf or even half-elf. But I absolutely adore her because of her role and her story.

[cellurdur]

She's certainly very beautiful, and those who know what they talk about say that she's Luthien reborn (not literally of course). However, she is not as potent as Luthien.
Yes Luthien was exceptional at everything and stands alone.

Certainly. I think that Arwen has an innate power of her own, albeit a lesser one than that of Luthien and Galadriel. The reason I prefer Galadriel over Arwen is not because one is more beautiful or has greater power. I just like Galadriel's portrayal better - and better than Luthien's too, by th way. To be honest, I like Morwen Eledhwen better than either of them, and, though she's beautiful and powerful in her own right, she's no match for an elf or even half-elf. But I absolutely adore her because of her role and her story.
The thing with Arwen is that we don't know much about her. Considering she was very much like Luthien in personality, I would probably like her more than Galadriel, but not much evidence.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.


Oddly enough Morwen and Turin are my two favourite characters. Morwen more than Turin, because despite everything that happened to her she remained unbroken.

[Galadriel55]

Oddly enough Morwen and Turin are my two favourite characters. Morwen more than Turin, because despite everything that happened to her she remained unbroken.

Yes!!! I have an ally!!! :D

I'm a bit obsessed with tragic heroes and just tragic characters in general, and more FA than the later Ages, and especially COH, though The Sil is good also. But I have endless arguments about Hurin's family (can you go more tragic?) with nearly everyone. :p

Before I get cast out of the Doors of Night to keep Melkor company for going off track...

The thing with Arwen is that we don't know much about her. Considering she was very much like Luthien in personality, I would probably like her more than Galadriel, but not much evidence.

I'm not the biggest fan of Luthien either. As you can tell, I'm more of a fan of tragic endings than love stories.

The way I see Arwen and Luthien differs from yours. I think that Luthien is much more forward and charismatic, more rough, more First Age. Arwen is, for lack ofa better word, tamer. Between them, there are times when I prefer Luthien because of her wild and rebellious touch (but that's not to say that I see her as a willful teenager, I'm just pointing out the difference what I see her as compared to Arwen). Arwen is gentler, quieter, but you can still feel that backbone in her at times. And both ladies are certainly mysterious, though in different ways. Arwen, because we know so little of her, and Luthien, because, as you well put it, she stands alone.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.

It's one of my favourite bits of Galadriel history when she refuses the Ring in Lorien. She has a bit of that wild First Age streak in her too in The Sil, but in LOTR she has gained more greatness, more inner power, and curbed her ambition.

[elbenprincess]

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Arwen is said to walk in the "likeness of Luthien", but not that she resembles her looks. Unless I forgett something, there is no evidence that Arwen is the fairest in ME, I believe Tolkien at least meant Galadriel and her to be equally beautiful.

And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women.

I prefer Luthien because of her wild and rebellious touch

I really don´t see her as wild and rebellios, I mean it wold have been good, but everything what she did was for Beren and not because she was freeminded and felt confined in Doriath.

And for Luthien I´m really not impressed by her even if Tolkien said that she was the greatest of the Eldar, everything what she did was for the sake of her love to beren but not for the greater good. Would Beren not have come to Doriath Luthien wold probably still dance under a tree. Don´t get me wrong her deeds are impressive, but not Luthien, would she have went to Morgoth to free some people, Finrod for example then I would be impressed or if she became active before she met Beren, that for me would be an example of a strong women but she did that cause she couldn´t life without Beren.

That´s why Galadriel for me is greater (even if Tolkien sees it differently), she chose to stay in ME (if we leave out her pride, which was one reason) for the greater good to see Sauron fall and help where she could.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.

I speak now only for Galadriel but did she leave Aman only for power, I see it rather as need for responsibility and there is nothing wrong with it. She wanted to have her own kindom to have something to do, to accomplish something and not just sit singing under a tree. In the UT she is disribed as being "brilliant in mind and swift in action", so like all hugely intelligent people she was looking for a challenge but she still wanted only good for her people (she never would have suppressed someone (unlike Sauron or Morgoth) and every society needs a leader. So I see nothing negative in Galadriel wanting a realm of her own, as long as she doesn´t force the elves to accept her.

but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Yes, but that was nothing she accieved in her own, it was because of her marriage to Aragon, if she had fought for it and went through many dangers (like Aragon) then I would be impressed but she was only lucky that Aragon loved her, otherwise we maybe would have never even heard of her.

[Galadriel55]

I really don´t see her as wild and rebellios, I mean it wold have been good, but everything what she did was for Beren and not because she was freeminded and felt confined in Doriath.

Yes. Once again, I do not see her as a daredevil teenager. But compared to Arwen, who sits at home and weaves a banner, she is quite the daredevil. Also, everyone in The Sil has a bit of wild to them compared to those in LOTR. Perhaps because the whole book is more desperate, or perhaps the whole world is new so you don't have the ancient anything to balance out the new and wild.

[cellurdur]

Arwen is said to walk in the "likeness of Luthien", but not that she resembles her looks. Unless I forgett something, there is no evidence that Arwen is the fairest in ME, I believe Tolkien at least meant Galadriel and her to be equally beautiful.
Arwen is called the fairest woman in the world several times in the books.

Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate.

There can be no doubt that Arwen looked a lot like Luthien.

'"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."


'"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near."

But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me.


And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women.
It is very simple. Arwen and Elrond were immortal Half-Elven. Again Tolkien clarifies this clearly.

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154


"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345

Arwen and Elrond were never elves. Nothing more can be said about it.

I speak now only for Galadriel but did she leave Aman only for power, I see it rather as need for responsibility and there is nothing wrong with it. She wanted to have her own kindom to have something to do, to accomplish something and not just sit singing under a tree. In the UT she is disribed as being "brilliant in mind and swift in action", so like all hugely intelligent people she was looking for a challenge but she still wanted only good for her people (she never would have suppressed someone (unlike Sauron or Morgoth) and every society needs a leader. So I see nothing negative in Galadriel wanting a realm of her own, as long as she doesn´t force the elves to accept her.
Yet power was still one of the main reasons she left and was consequently banned from Aman. Her father was wise and brilliant, but had more wisdom.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them.

Yes, but that was nothing she accieved in her own, it was because of her marriage to Aragon, if she had fought for it and went through many dangers (like Aragon) then I would be impressed but she was only lucky that Aragon loved her, otherwise we maybe would have never even heard of her.
Arwen is Queen of Elves by her right and plays a huge part in running Aragorn's kingdom. Not only that, she was keeping watch on him from Rivendell, arranged for him to receive the Elessar and made his kingly banner.

Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Númenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

[elbenprincess]

'"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."


'"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near."

This is not Tolkiens view, that´s rather seen through the eyes of Gilraen and Aragon. Gilraen probably never meat Galadriel and therefore can not even judge that and Aragon is biased cause he is talking about his own wife, furthermore Galadriel wast in ME anymore when he said that.

The quote I provided was Tolkiens general view and not filtered through his characters.

For this lady is the noblest
That is debatable too, I would say Galadriel is more noble, being the daugther of a king (Finarfin), Granddaughter of a king (Olwe) and great niece of two kings (Ingwe and Elwe, if we assume that Elwe held kingship in Aman) Arwen is much more removed. But that´s just me. Arwen has of course the plus being decended from Melian, but for me that doesn´t make her necessarily more noble. Is just Gilraen not knowing better.

I´s like Sam saying for example that Rosie is the fairest in ME, that wold e Sams opinion, bt not neccessarily Tolkiens, or Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME, that is her opinion but probably not Tolkiens, cause he once said that abot Cirdan.

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154


"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345


I´m very much aware that Tolkien said that Arwen isn´t an elf but half-elven, I was just trying to explain why I think that both are included in that statement, when Tolkien is talking in general of the third age eldar Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves They are several thousand years old and living among elves. They are more elven than mortal. I think it´s quite obvious, Arwen is even listened as one of the Eldar.

There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn"


She was genetically not an elf, but still included when generally speaking of them, until she wedded Aragon. With Elrond it´s even more explizcit, even if he´s half-elven, since "he chose to be counted among the Eldar"

I don´t know how to explain, but isn´t she seen as an elf (I´m not saying the she IS full elven) until she decided to become mortal? After her decision she stays half elven too, but then is no longer seen as an elf but a mortal women.

Yet power was still one of the main reasons she left and was consequently banned from Aman. Her father was wise and brilliant, but had more wisdom.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them

I´m not saying that Finarfin wasn´t wise returning to Valinor or that the other elves were cowards, it´s just that every person has other goals in life (for Galadriel being influential or powerful) and not everyone is content in just singing and writing poetry, but I wouldn´t say that Galadriel was unwise or stupid for going to ME, she had her purpose, without her things may have ended worse.

Galadriel and Feanor are the only elves described as being brilliant, I don´t think that there a dumb elves anyway, but they are seemingly extraordinary in that area, that´s the reason they weren´t content in living in Aman anymore, Galadriel even more than Feanor is seems.
I see nothing bad in her departure, I see a curious, knowlege- (slightly power) hungry "young" women who is looking for responsibility and something important to do. Even if she was looking for power, I don´t understand why some people see that in negative light. It´s the method how someone craves for power which is cruicial and Galadriel wanted always the best for ME, that sets her apart from the likes of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. You can have the need for being powerful and still be a good person if you know when you have to stop. Galadriels "stop" was when she refused the ring.

Arwen is Queen of Elves by her right and plays a huge part in running Aragorn's kingdom. Not only that, she was keeping watch on him from Rivendell, arranged for him to receive the Elessar and made his kingly banner.


I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.

[cellurdur]

This is not Tolkiens view, that´s rather seen through the eyes of Gilraen and Aragon. Gilraen probably never meat Galadriel and therefore can not even judge that and Aragon is biased cause he is talking about his own wife, furthermore Galadriel wast in ME anymore when he aid that.

The quote I provided was Tolkiens general view and not filtered through his characters.
What about Eomer's quote? Besides I have explained and given you lots of information where Tolkien shows the Half-Elven are not included among the Elves.

That is debatable too, I would say Galadriel is more noble, being the daugther of a king (Finarfin), Granddaughter of a king (Olwe) and great niece of two kings (Ingwe and Elwe, if we assume that Elwe held kingship in Aman) Arwen is much more removed. But that´s just me. Arwen has of course the plus being decended from Melian, but for me that doesn´t make her necessarily more noble. Is just Gilraen not knowing better.
Arwen is a descendant of both Earendil and Luthien. The two most beloved, most powerful and most respected out of the Children of Illuvatar. That trumps everything.

I´s like Sam saying for example that Rosie is the fairest in ME, that wold e Sams opinion, bt not neccessarily Tolkiens, or Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME, that is her opinion but probably not Tolkiens, cause he once said that abot Cirdan.
Except more than one character says it and they have no reason to be biased. She is also compared to Luthien in looks, the fairest out of all the Children of Illuvatar.

I´m very much aware that Tolkien said that Arwen isn´t an elf but half-elven, I was just trying to explain why I think that both are included in that statement, when Tolkien is talking in general of the third age eldar They are several thousand years old and living among elves. They are more elven than mortal. I think it´s quite obvious, Arwen is even listened as one of the Eldar.
Well there are many reasons why this is not the case.
1. Elrond is called a Elf friend.
"The Master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men of the North.

[Elrond] was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

"‘And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.'"

She was genetically not an elf, but still included when generally speaking of them, until she wedded Aragon. With Elrond it´s even more explizcit, even if he´s half-elven, since "he chose to be counted among the Eldar"
No quite the opposite, Tolkien in virtually every panel retains the distinction between Elrond/Elrond's children and true Elves. He is only LIKE or AS an elf lord.


I´m not saying that Finarfin wasn´t wise returning to Valinor or that the other elves were cowards, it´s just that every person has other goals in life (for Galadriel being influential or powerful) and not everyone is content in just singing and writing poetry, but I wouldn´t say that Galadriel was unwise or stupid for going to ME, she had her purpose, without her things may have ended worse.

Galadriel and Feanor are the only elves described as being brilliant, I don´t think that there a dumb elves anyway, but they are seemingly extraordinary in that area, that´s the reason they weren´t content in living in Aman anymore, Galadriel even more than Feanor is seems.
I see nothing bad in her departure, I see a curious, knowlege- (slightly power) hungry "young" women who is looking for responsibility and something important to do. Even if she was looking for power, I don´t understand why some people see that in negative light. It´s the method how someone craves for power which is cruicial and Galadriel wanted always the best for ME, that sets her apart from the likes of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. You can have the need for being powerful and still be a good person if you know when you have to stop. Galadriels "stop" was when she refused the ring.
Knowing when to stop is returning when the Valar place a curse on your errand. Finarfin was wise and knew when to stop and that was when the Valar cursed them. This is why Finarfin is the ONLY Noldor Prince/Lady to not inherit the weakness of pride the others did including Finrod and Galadriel.

If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had.

In him(Feanor) she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor and upon her own.

I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.
No for whatever reason it seems the Noldor had a form of Salic Succession. The throne was only passed to males through a male line. So with the death of Gil-galad not only was there a lack of elves to have a High-King, but there was nobody with a right to the throne anyway.

However, Arwen has right to claim the Queenship through Thingol. That apart the elves did not just accept leaders, because of a birth right. They rejected Finrod, Feanor and Galadriel herself even though they were the rightful rulers by birth. Arwen therefore must have displayed qualities for the elves to except her rule.

[Galadriel55]

I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.

You talk only of political power. I think that it is only surface-deep and is based on status, not on the person. I was talking abut innate power, of which even Aragorn has lots - and Arwen probably has just as much (though of a different kind/"direction") at least.

Arwen is a descendant of both Earendil and Luthien. The two most beloved, most powerful and most respected out of the Children of Illuvatar. That trumps everything.

According to me it doesn't. Being a descendant does not necessarily trump a separate quality. It's comparing apples to oranges - being less powerful than the other's ancestors, but in your own right, or not being as special by yourself but having inherited something due to your ancestry.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them.

There is a difference between doing nothing peacefully and doing something peacefully. The only problem is that the something turned quite bloody, but not by Galadriel's will.

If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had.

And if everyone acted perfectly we would not have a story. *sigh* But that's beside the point. Thing is, we see so few of Arwen's actions that we can't really judge her. Galadriel does things imperfectly. Arwen doesn't do much at all. Galadriel learns wisdom and humility. Arwen becomes mortal. You decide which is the apple and which is the orange.

[elbenprincess]

Knowing when to stop is returning when the Valar place a curse on your errand. Finarfin was wise and knew when to stop and that was when the Valar cursed them. This is why Finarfin is the ONLY Noldor Prince/Lady to not inherit the weakness of pride the others did including Finrod and Galadriel.

If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had

I anyway don´t understand why they were banned, the Valar said that they are free and could leave if they want but they still banned them, even those who were not guilty in the kinslaying. Galadriel had the right to go, she was no prisinor. Pride is not always a weakness, it saves ones self-respect. If you are convinced that what you do is the right thing, then you should fight for it and maybe even refuse forgiveness, if that "pardon" includes that you have to admit you were wrong. Never should anyone act against his or her believes.

IMHO Galadriel was right when she refused the pardon, because for what should she need to be forgiven? For leaving Aman?
The Valar were wrong.

"The Master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men of the North.


"Elrond's character had yet to be fully developed when The Hobbit was first published. Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit has a detailed section on Elrond's character, as Rateliff notes:

...and the very presense of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside to 'see the elves' dance and sing) and seems to not have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long lived at this point, - The History of The Hobbit: Mr. Baggins; Ch III, Rivendell.

And in The Annotated, in A Short Rest: note 9, Anderson refers to a 1964 letter where Tolkien called Elrond's naming a "fortunate accident":

Tolkien wrote to Christopher Bretherton in a letter of July 16, 1964, "The Passage in Ch. 3 relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology...I made him half-elven."

"Tolkien needed a name for this character in The Hobbit who was an "elf-friend" and the master of Rivendell, and it appears he casually plucked the name Elrond. This would become a fortunate accident, because Tolkien realized Elrond was already a character in his mythology, and already the "half-mortal and half-elfin" child of Earendel and Elwing ("Sketch of the Mythology"). I'm not sure when Elrond's full character gets fleshed out, but it would not be anytime before LOTR."

That all is copied from someone who wrote that in another forum.

Well, I wouldn´t read too much into it.
Elrond "chose to be counted among the Eldar" and therefore is included in that quote despite being half elven, with Arwen it´s a little more difficult, but alone the fact that Tolkien said that her and Aragons wedding was the third between the Eldar and Edain is prove enough for me.
They are called called half - elven, not half-man, so it is reasonable if they would be included in such a general statement.

What about Eomer's quote?

Yes, Eomer thought Arwen was fairer, Gimli Galadriel, so now, what was Tolkiens opinion on that? Maybe he wasn´t sure. Whose opinion has more weight?

They rejected Finrod, Feanor and Galadriel

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.

[Galadriel55]

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.

I would agree. Yes, only men were Kings, until Numenor changed that. However, when there are no more men left of the line, who else to follow? Moreover, Galadriel is such a figure that people would follow her regardless of her gender. She has charisma. Lots of it. And even in LOTR, whenever she appears with Celeborn, she demonstrates that he is great, and never tries to show otherwise. Yet you get the feeling all the time that despite that she is much greater than him. Even the people who follow her rule defer to her before Celeborn.

[cellurdur]

IMHO Galadriel was right when she refused the pardon, because for what should she need to be forgiven? For leaving Aman?
The Valar were wrong.
No the Valar were right. The Valar cursed the Noldor for leaving, because of their actions. The right thing to do would be go and ask pardon. Ultimately the Valar would have sent a force. Finarfin acted in the correct manner and you will note he was the one that gained everything. He gained the High Kingship of all the Noldor, he was the one who led the Noldor to victory. If his children and relatives had listened then things would have turned out much better.

"Elrond's character had yet to be fully developed when The Hobbit was first published. Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit has a detailed section on Elrond's character, as Rateliff notes:

...and the very presense of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside to 'see the elves' dance and sing) and seems to not have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long lived at this point, - The History of The Hobbit: Mr. Baggins; Ch III, Rivendell.

And in The Annotated, in A Short Rest: note 9, Anderson refers to a 1964 letter where Tolkien called Elrond's naming a "fortunate accident":

Tolkien wrote to Christopher Bretherton in a letter of July 16, 1964, "The Passage in Ch. 3 relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology...I made him half-elven."

"Tolkien needed a name for this character in The Hobbit who was an "elf-friend" and the master of Rivendell, and it appears he casually plucked the name Elrond. This would become a fortunate accident, because Tolkien realized Elrond was already a character in his mythology, and already the "half-mortal and half-elfin" child of Earendel and Elwing ("Sketch of the Mythology"). I'm not sure when Elrond's full character gets fleshed out, but it would not be anytime before LOTR."

That all is copied from someone who wrote that in another forum.

Well, I wouldn´t read too much into it.
Elrond "chose to be counted among the Eldar" and therefore is included in that quote despite being half elven, with Arwen it´s a little more difficult, but alone the fact that Tolkien said that her and Aragons wedding was the third between the Eldar and Edain is prove enough for me.
They are called called half - elven, not half-man, so it is reasonable if they would be included in such a general statement.

What does that have to do with anything? Tolkien comments on how he was fortunate he used Elrond's name, but it does not change his status as one of the Half-Elven. The Half-elven are their own separate group. I have given several quotes distinguishing Elrond from other Elf-lords and his children too. None of the Half-Elven were elves. There is only one slip up when he talks about the marriages of the Eldar and the Edain and he quickly corrects this one letter. Through out the Lengendarium he is consistent in showing the difference.

In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power.

Yes, Eomer thought Arwen was fairer, Gimli Galadriel, so now, what was Tolkiens opinion on that? Maybe he wasn´t sure. Whose opinion has more weight?

Except we have Aragorn's, Gilraen's and the references to Arwen's similarity to Luthien.

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.
They rejected Finrod when Curufin and Celegorm convinced them to abandon the king. The elves of Eregion by one story rejected Galadriel in favour of Celebrimbor.


According to me it doesn't. Being a descendant does not necessarily trump a separate quality. It's comparing apples to oranges - being less powerful than the other's ancestors, but in your own right, or not being as special by yourself but having inherited something due to your ancestry.
In Tolkien, nobility is not just down to actions, but to descent as well. Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent. The rest was in her actions.

There is a difference between doing nothing peacefully and doing something peacefully. The only problem is that the something turned quite bloody, but not by Galadriel's will.
The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor DID do something. They were the ones who won the war. They regained the Silmarils. Being wise and not too hasty is a virtue.

And if everyone acted perfectly we would not have a story. *sigh* But that's beside the point. Thing is, we see so few of Arwen's actions that we can't really judge her. Galadriel does things imperfectly. Arwen doesn't do much at all. Galadriel learns wisdom and humility. Arwen becomes mortal. You decide which is the apple and which is the orange.
That is true, but it does not matter when judging characters. Tolkien himself says that people have to fall, to give us the story, but falling is a failure.

I agree we do not really know enough about Arwen to judge, but we only know that she was very similar to Luthien.

I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor.

All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir.

[elbenprincess]

Oh yes, Thingol was of course not flawed:rolleyes:

That Elrond distances himself from the Noldor because of their past, makes me almost not liking him (almost!) If it wasn´t for the Noldor leaving Aman despite the Valar cammanding them to stay, there would be no Elrond. One could ask for a little more respect regarding his Noldorin ancestors.

I wouldn´t call them flawed (except Feanor and his sons), I would call them people with character.

Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent

Oh please really, where was Arwen "so great", she just happens to marry the King of Arnor and Gondor. Origianlly he would even have married Eowyn.


In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).


It says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself, so was Elrond, maybe even to a greater degree.

That doesn´t make Elrond more powerful than Galadriel, actually i think it´s very unlikely that Elrond has more innate power, when you have in mind what Tolkien has written about her in comparision to Feanor.

[Galadriel55]

In Tolkien, nobility is not just down to actions, but to descent as well. Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent. The rest was in her actions.

I do not disagree. Both have great ancestors, but Arwen has the greater ones. Both do great deeds, but Galadriel does the greater ones. How do you balance it out? You can't. It's apples and oranges.

The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor DID do something. They were the ones who won the war. They regained the Silmarils. Being wise and not too hasty is a virtue.

That's beside the point. They won the war - after an Age of doing... what? Sitting at home, carving jewels, watching the stars... Life in Valinor is good when you are weary and seek rest. But what about when you are still young, vigorous, ambitious? When you don't want to just take and enjoy what the Valar have provided, but want to build yourself? Enjoyment wears off together with appreciation.

That is true, but it does not matter when judging characters. Tolkien himself says that people have to fall, to give us the story, but falling is a failure.

Alright. Sure. It's failure. But it makes a character more interesting to read about. I love Galadriel (who has fallen and risen again) as a character more than I do Arwen, who has neither fallen nor risen. She not only does little in the physical sense, but her character is pretty stagnant, other than perhaps her decision to become mortal.

And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst.

I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor.

We don't know much of Arwen's character. We need deeds to judge character. Arwen does very few things that are her choice (I mean, she can be beautiful, but it's not really her credit); she visits Lorien. She weaves a banner. There's the look she gave Frodo in Rivendell that he always remembered afterwards, as well as giving him the necklace. And she became mortal. Coincidence or not, but many of her deeds originate in this choice. It's the most important thing to me in judging her character.

All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir.

Elrond distances himself from the Noldor and would rather be Thingol's heir? Where did you get this from? I can't seem to recall any such, but I may have forgotten this bit since my last read.

[cellurdur]

Oh yes, Thingol was of course not flawed:rolleyes:

That Elrond distances himself from the Noldor because of their past, makes me almost not liking him (almost!) If it wasn´t for the Noldor leaving Aman despite the Valar cammanding them to stay, there would be no Elrond. One could ask for a little more respect regarding his Noldorin ancestors.

I wouldn´t call them flawed (except Feanor and his sons), I would call them people with character.
Thingol had his flaws, but disobeying the King of the World was not one of them. Of course Elrond respects them, but disobeying the Valar and receiving a ban is no small matter. Worse still they were kin slayers in Aman itself. I know Galadriel and the House of Finarfin did not take part in this. Rather Galadriel in most accounts defended her kin, but then she STILL left with the Noldor.

I like the Noldor and they certainly did have character, but just like Turin and Morwen, whom resembled them so much; they had too much pride.

In retrospect distancing himself is perhaps too harsh. He rather traced his heritage to Elwe over Fingolfin/Finwe.

where as Elrond remained among the elves and carried on the lineage of Elwe.
and then the note adds
And Turgon; though he preferred that of Elwe, who was not under the ban that was laid on the exiles.

Oh please really, where was Arwen "so great", she just happens to marry the King of Arnor and Gondor. Origianlly he would even have married Eowyn.
Originally Aragorn was a hobbit with a peg leg.

It does not distract from Galadriel's greatness, that Arwen was great in her own right. Aragorn actually uses Arwen's greatness to praise her.

O lady of Lorienof whom sprung Celebrian and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say more

Arwen was great and this reflects on Galadriel not just, because she was her grandmother, but also due to the tutelage Arwen received.

It says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself.

That doesn´t make Elrond more powerful than Galadriel, actually i think it´s very unlikely that Elrond has more innate power, when you have in mind what Tolkien has written about her in comparision to Feanor.

I too don't think even Galadriel could defeat Sauron in person with the ring. That is not to say she would not defeat him in other ways. Like even lesser powers she would just command huge army and defeat Sauron that way. As powerful as Sauron was, Numenor alone was too great for him to handle in might alone.

However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers.

[cellurdur]

I do not disagree. Both have great ancestors, but Arwen has the greater ones. Both do great deeds, but Galadriel does the greater ones. How do you balance it out? You can't. It's apples and oranges.
In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

That's beside the point. They won the war - after an Age of doing... what? Sitting at home, carving jewels, watching the stars... Life in Valinor is good when you are weary and seek rest. But what about when you are still young, vigorous, ambitious? When you don't want to just take and enjoy what the Valar have provided, but want to build yourself? Enjoyment wears off together with appreciation.
They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Alright. Sure. It's failure. But it makes a character more interesting to read about. I love Galadriel (who has fallen and risen again) as a character more than I do Arwen, who has neither fallen nor risen. She not only does little in the physical sense, but her character is pretty stagnant, other than perhaps her decision to become mortal.
I agree from a literary point of view a fallen character is more interesting. Tolkien himself says this. He goes further; here are his thoughts on the matter in a letter.

There cannot be any 'story' without a fall....So proceeding the elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial.

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst.
Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

We don't know much of Arwen's character. We need deeds to judge character. Arwen does very few things that are her choice (I mean, she can be beautiful, but it's not really her credit); she visits Lorien. She weaves a banner. There's the look she gave Frodo in Rivendell that he always remembered afterwards, as well as giving him the necklace. And she became mortal. Coincidence or not, but many of her deeds originate in this choice. It's the most important thing to me in judging her character.
I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Elrond distances himself from the Noldor and would rather be Thingol's heir? Where did you get this from? I can't seem to recall any such, but I may have forgotten this bit since my last read.
Distanced himself is too strong I feel. It was my mistake to use that word. It's better to say he favoured his Sindar descent over the Noldor and considered himself Thingol's heir.

[Galadriel55]

However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers.

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:

Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more deeds and purposes of his enemies that even the wisest of them feared, save Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.

--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)

"But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see my thought. But still the door is closed!"

--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.

[cellurdur]

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:



--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)



--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.
It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.
It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.
We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.
They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.
You are confusing being a boring person, with a boring story. It seems strange to me that you cannot respect someone for being good. We have very different views. Being good is harder and better than being bad.

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.
What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.
You canot say she has the same character as Luthien, but Tolkien can and he does. As the author of the story he can gives us definitive statements. Like when he tells us Sam, Frodo and Bilbo still eventually die in Tol Eressea. He tells us outright Luthien and Arwen had a similar character. Luthien too sat at home and respected the authority of Thingol. It was only when things became desperate for Beren and he was days away from death did she interfere. Arwen on the other hand did not have Luthien's power or the need to rush out and save Aragorn. She helped him as she could and had faith in him.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.
If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.

[elbenprincess]

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

It is stated that Galadriel Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.

It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring

Elrond was not even the original bearer, the three were given to the tree greatest of the Eldar (of this time) Galadriel, Cirdan and Gil Galad.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.

Galadriel was contemplating to steel the ring

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.

Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.

If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.
and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration
They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).


The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?

They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

[elbenprincess]

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?

We also know that ban, per Letter # 297, was lifted because she refused the Ring

Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.

So she was able to return because of that, was there more?

[cellurdur]

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?
So she was able to return because of that, was there more?
No she was banned for her part in being one of the leaders in the rebellion. Tolkien later on was considering changing her significant role in leading the Noldor, but she was always going to under ban for disobeying the Noldor.

It is stated that Galadriel

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.
No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.
Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

So did everyone else just like Boromir. You defense of Galadriel is becoming to desperate. Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.
No, but she was considering stealing it from Frodo if he passed through her land.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.
No she was unsure of what she would do until the moment itself happened.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.
You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.
The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.
Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.
It matters in the manner. Leaving in toe with a mad man, who had broken the Valars laws and sworn a destructive oath was there choice. They then doubled their misery by committing murder before they went.

They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).
No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?
Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.
Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

If thraldom it be you cannot escape it: for Manwe is king of Arda and not Aman only.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

The whole world is under Manwe. As Mandos said you cannot escape his kingship. Tolkien outright states they were corrupted by Morgoth and repeated his lies. They may have loved the Valr, but they broke their laws and had to make their own bed.

Nor did the Valar punish them in any undue way. They refused them help and banned them from Aman. If the Valar had not shown mercy then the Noldor would have been wiped out by Morgoth and quickly returned to Aman to sit in the halls of Mandos. The ones, who remained would become a rustic people and slowly fade away. The Valar were more forgiving than they could have been. In the end it is the Noldor, who are desperate to come back and constantly pine for Aman.

[elbenprincess]

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

"But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien."

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.


Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents. ... This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, know to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë

I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.

If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor

People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

[cellurdur]

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.
It's because Gandalf cared about everything good in ME and wanted to save it all, not just one place as he tells Denethor. It was not only down to duty, but love as well.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

Yes she was joking about it, but at the same time it was something she had considered.

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.
Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.
The Sindar were safe in Doriath for a while and Men had rejected Eru; a worse crime than the Noldor had committed.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.
That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning. Many of them regretted leaving their great works behind. It was due to pride and arrogance. They wanted to be the greatest people around, rather than the lowest as they were in Valinor.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand. If they wanted to show what they could do against Morogth they got what they wanted. If they wanted realms of their own without the power of the Valar they got it. They all died except Galadriel and all of their realms were destroyed. That's what they got without the Valar.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.
The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Yes and this is why they were punished. They not only left at an evil time, but under a banned leader and the majority committed even great crimes.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?
Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor. That reasoning is how Morgoth came about. The Noldor did not except Manwe as ruler of the world. That apart they insulted the Valar in their own homes.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.
Yes it does. They may have followed Fingolfin, but urged on by Feanor and due to the lies of Morgoth.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.
Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy. Similar to when the Numenoreans started returning to ME and conquering lands. It was the first sign that they were beginning to fall.

I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.
[QUOTE]
Pride mastered Galadriel and the other Noldor. They knew they had acted foolishly when they followed Feanor. They knew it was the wrong time Galadriel included, but they could not conquer their pride. That was their failing.

I repeat that it is no coincidence than the only descendant of Finwe, without the intense pride of others, Finarfin is able to return.

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon
[QUOTE]
People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.
Those are the same words that that Morgoth used. Pride always leads to a fall. The ones, who are humble always end up better. Finarfin faired better than his brothers, Tuor faired better than Turin, Aragorn faired better than Isildur, Faramir better than Boromir.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

It is not Galadriel alone, I constantly reference all the Princes/Ladies of the Noldor except Finarfin, because they all had the same weakness and were consequently all died (except Galadriel) who lost everything.

[elbenprincess]

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly. Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned deep in shadow; or "I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home." That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

Men had rejected Eru

How that? I should read the Silm again:rolleyes:

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëonor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration."

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

[cellurdur]

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.
That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament or That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

It is due to the fault in her. Only after she rejects the Ring is her ban lifted. It's only then that she has realised why she was wrong and repented.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.
Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

How that? I should read the Silm again:rolleyes:

It goes into deeper depth about this in Morgoth's ring. Men are not innocents abandoned by the Valar and corrupted by Morgoth. They had the fortune of Eru himself speaking to them, but they chose Morgoth.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.
Thingol was not happy with it and they did not respect him as the High King. The sons of Feanor even called him erroneously a Dark Elf, forgetting he had seen the light of the trees.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.
You want it both ways. If you refuse the council and advise of the Valar then why should the Valar help you? If you choose to leave the home they granted you, why should they give you a chance to return? The elves are lucky the Valar are merciful. By all rights the Valar could just abandon the Noldor to fade in Middle Earth.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.
That was not the sole reason. They wanted power and wide lands to rule, they believed the lies of Morgoth. This cannot be escaped. The reasons the Noldor left were tainted.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO
NO city on ME was as fair as Tirion, which they built in Valinor.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

Yes wanting to rule is selfish. The kings should be there to serve the people. The Rangers are the perfect example. Even when they are denied the glory, prestige and honour they deserve, they never stop protecting their subjects. That is true nobility.

Slightly off topic, but I was reading why Cirdan had greater foresight than even Elrond. Tolkien being the sort of writer he was, needed to explain why Cirdan would have greater foresight than Elrond, who had divine blood. The answer is Cirdan greatly wanted to go to Valinor, to see the Two Trees and to meet his kin and close friend Olwe. Yet at the request of the Valar he stayed and helped those in Middle Earth. That is why the Valar rewarded him with such great foresight.

The Princes of the Noldor were thinking about themselves and not what was best for their people. This was selfish and based on pride.

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.
Yes, but they should have done what was best for their people and not only to extend their power and glory.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.
Yes, because she knew in her heart even in this version she should have gone back to seek council from the Valar about what should be done. In this version her pride leads her to leaving Aman to thwart Feanor. Either way pride led her to an unwise decision.

This is the difference between Glorfindel and the other princes like Fingon and Turgon. Glorfindel left only out of his kinship to Turgon and a desire to help his people. Though he was wrong to rebel his motives were selfless and he was rewarded.

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.
No I am saying she KNEW it was the right thing to return, but was to proud to do the right thing and did what she wanted.

It's not a coincidence in Tolkien that people without pride ending up ruling.

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

That said Galadriel was very great and very powerful. She suffered for her mistakes and learned from them. She played a pivotal role in the destruction of Sauron and is rightly held in high esteem.

[Mithalwen]

Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.

[cellurdur]

Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

[Galadriel55]

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

In my opinion, being (hypothetically) perfect in a perfect society/environment is much easier than preserving even a strand of goodness in the midst of moral chaos and destruction. This applies to all characters. But for Fingolfin vs Ingwe the respect matter is more that just that. For all that Ingwe is the High King and a good boy, he is not great. Fingolfin's greatness trumps Ingwe's with no question. And so does Feanor's - if he's not the most flawed Elf of all times I'll eat my socks, but he is also the greatest, and in my eyes that is cause for respect.

However, most of the above is beside the point, and, as you said, we won't agree anyways, so I'm willing to drop the subject.

If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

I would disagree here. I think that Galadriel really did contemplate about the Ring, perhaps even the taking of it by force. And she did make her decision then and there with Frodo and Sam present. But there is nothing bad about it.

I do not like going Biblical, but I can't for the moment think of a better example. Adam and Eve were good people in Eden. Was it hard? Not really, because it was the only thing available. In essence, they could not have been otherwise until the apple story. Do you admire them for being good when they just stepped into the world? It's like saying you admire a baby for being small.

Some many years later, though, it is much harder for people to be good, because they are not anymore living in paradise; they are surrounded by less than good things. And now you really do appreciate good people and good deeds. It's not to be taken for granted.

However, there are no people that are so pure they don't even consider it. They can't not consider it, because they live in it. You might say "He did not even think of betrayal", but what that really says is "He thought of it and rejected it immediately without further consideration". It is impossible to be absolutely pure. And if a person considers the wrong thing, but still does right, that speaks of perhaps a more tainted but a stronger person, because it requires a stronger will to overcome a greater moral dilemma and still do right.

Moral of the story, firstly, this relates to why I respect the tempted and undefeated Galadriel more than the untempted Arwen. Secondly, that everyone who had a connection to the Ring was tempted in some fashion, even if it is not written.


I still have some posts to read from this thread, but I have to go now. I think that we are just saying the same thing over and over again, and we won't even agree on it because we're looking at it from opposite sides. I propose this: I will not repeat what I've said before because we're just standing on different streets and it's not getting anyone anywhere. At least this way I hope we will be able to bring the discussion back to the original question.

I must say, however, it's a pleasure to debate such things here with you!

[cellurdur]

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.
Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something :)

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.

[cellurdur]

Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.
I agree and it is a shame Tolkien does not expand her role, but the story is very Hobbit centric.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.
I think there would be quite a big change. At Rivendell as much as she would help Aragorn, she could not help but be overshadowed by Elrond and Galadriel. She also had no real right to interfere with Dunedain.

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something :)
There is so much to Tolkien's work that even the greatest experts occasionally find something else they had missed.

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.
I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

Though it was dropped from the Appendix, Tolkien wanted to point out that Eldarion inherited all the elvish lands of the West through his mother.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

I agree and Arwen is not near Luthien in power. I was only pointing out why Luthien's innate power far exceeded Galadriel's and giving the comparisons.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

This is true and the Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth, but rejected him.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

I would agree with this. Though I would add Faramir there too.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

Not necessarily, but I would agree it took greater strength of will for her to resist than say Faramir etc.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.
Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath. I will give you the quotes if you want.

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.
Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

[Galadriel55]

Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

"With that power I should have power too great and too terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a powerstill greater and more deadly."..."Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to weild it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."

Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.

[cellurdur]

Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.
The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

Yet there is more to it.

Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.
Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME

I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.
I think the point is being power hungry often leads to a lack of power. Those who don't desire it are granted it.

Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.
No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

It is Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men."

Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.
Aragorn's words about the people differing on the exact distance suggest it is not mere geography. The fact that many people, who have been there cannot give you an accurate account of how many miles it takes to reach their shows there must be some enchantment about the place. Even Gandalf, who had been to Rivendell many times struggles to find it again.

You are right there is no direct quote that Elrond strove with Sauron mentally, but it is implied that all the wielders of the 3 rings did so.

Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.
Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.
There is a difference between the temptation when you have the ring in your possession and merely just using it. The greater you are the greater it's hold on you when you actually have the ring. This does not apply if it is just sitting there. All through out the story we see people, who do not desire power having no problem rejecting the ring. It is only those, who desire power that are most tempted.

Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.
Apart from Feanor, I think a lot of the wiser ones DID realise they could not win. Fingolfin is one of them, who knew it was a hopeless journey. Then Mandos tells them it is hopeless. They knew what they were getting into and were too proud to turn back.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.
The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.
Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.
Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME
I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

[Galadriel55]

The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.

[elbenprincess]

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath.

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding,

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

[Mithalwen]

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

[cellurdur]

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.
Legolas stayed until the death of Aragorn. I would imagine the majority of his folk would stay at least as long as he did and maybe longer.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.
I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:


Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).
Yes, but no time frame is given about how long they take to diminish and depart. Legolas's colony was still around for the entirety of Aragorn's reign. Celeborn did not rule over Avari, becuase they had begun the journey west.

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.
I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively. The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age. Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)
This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.
The elves had never been ones to accept leaders based on birth alone. I have pointed out how many an elvish leader, even exceptionally strong ones like Feanor and Galadriel had been rejected by their people. So Galadriel had more than just her birthright to hold them together.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.
Arwen showed wisdom, patience and self sacrifice in her dealings with Aragorn. To give up immortality for the one she loved and in part to enrich Gondor was something important according to Tolkien and worthy of reward.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Well by first seeing the flaw arranging for the Valar to be asked how did she not arrange it? She sought and got permission granted. Just because the Valar had the final say does not negate her role in anyway.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.
I don't see anything to suggest he was more strongly tempted than Galadriel. He never contemplates stealing ring and never says he desired to use it. You are reading things that are not their in the text. The ring appeals more to those with certain flaws, most notably pride.

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.
Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.
Galadriel was weaker than Sauron by such a great margin, that even if she took the One Ring she could not defeat him. Sauron is no fool and would not be broadcasting his thoughts out like you wish to imagine. Galadriel had great deductive skills and given Sauron's actions both past and present could predict the way he was going to act. He though, being blinded by evil could not predict the same about her.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.
Again you are mistaken. Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them. It's not just elves, but the Numenoreans had the a similar ability.


Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

I don't agree at all with your interpretation that it is similar to what Frodo calls Mrs Maggot. Arwen was a real Queen of men and put alongside her title is that she was Queen of Elves too.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.
I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.

[elbenprincess]

Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them

Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a struggle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"When they passed Dol Guldur in Mirkwood - where Sauron dwelled in secret - a darkness emanated from the fortress, and Eorl turned westward to avoid it. But then a white mist came from the woods of Lothlorien that stood across the River from Dol Guldur, and the Riders were hidden and continued safely on their way and, under the protection of the mist, apparently made the journey unwearyingly at an extraordinary rate of speed. "

Apparently Galadriel was able to conquer Saurons shadow, so why not able to read his thoughts?

[cellurdur]

Originally posted by cellurdur:


I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.

Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.

[cellurdur]

Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.


Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.

Sauron was much greater than Galadriel and greater even than Gandalf the White.

As I said before not even using the One Ring could Galadriel realistically defeat Sauron. What chance would she have without it?

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

There are several statements from Gandalf implying that only Sauron was more powerful than him in ME.

"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

And so I am, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the seat of the dark lord.

Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a sturgle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"There were dark glooms flowing out of Dol Guldor, and I'm sure Sauron sensed Eorl's host approaching. Yet the white mists from Galadriel was able to drive back Sauron's darkness? Why is this? Does this mean that in his Necromancer state, Sauron is weaker? Being a maia, he could've easily pushed back Galadriel's enchanted mists and done away with Eorl and his host, but he was overpowered."

That are not my own words, I copied that.

Sauron wat not yet at his full power when this occured, because he was busy rebuilding his power that he had lost. By the time of the One Ring he had regained his former strength.

he was none other than Sauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.


2060-The power of Dol Guldur grows




So yes he was much weaker, before his full powers were recovered. After they were recovered he was far too powerful for Galadriel or anyone else on Midddle Earth to deal with.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.
See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):
Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.
It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.
As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age.
No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.
Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own.

I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

You accused me of not considering facts objectively, but here you are fabricating arguments. So do not do that if we want to remain on objective basis.

This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?
Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.
"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.

[elbenprincess]

Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.


Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that: it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.
That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

[cellurdur]

See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):
A lot of the wood elves were made up of Sindar and Nandor elves, all of whom excepted the Lordship of Thingol.

Luthien never tried to claim any form of queenship. Even after the death of Thingol she did not try and claim the kingdom of Doriath. She instead left it for Dior.

It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).
Arwen was not a foreigner. She was the granddaughter of the their former Lords and had spent lived among them.

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!
If you read Tolkien's work you would see Aragorn is Lord of the West and held as leader of a confederation made up of several kingdoms.


Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it.


Then Bard II, Brand's son, became king in the Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dain's son, became the king under the mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship, with Gondor, and they under the crown and the protection of the King of the West.

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.
Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...
No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.
If they were leaving half the woods empty it would hardly be an expansion and worth moving. We are told they actually remain largely untroubled.

Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.
I don't think the untroubled line was talking about war. There was still danger from orcs, which you seem to have dismissed.

Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Why would they leave when we are told that whilst the Silvan folk of Lorien were leaving, the elves of Mirkwood extended their kingdom and had a colony in Ithilien? At the time of Hobbit a conservative estimate has the Elvish population of Mirkwood at around 5000.

"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.
Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

[cellurdur]

Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.
I have already shown you it was impossible to read the thoughts of another individual the way you like to think.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:
That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

[Boromir88]

Well, Arwen after all was the grand daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn who had spent time in Lorien. But after they depart, I agree with Legate that based on Galadriel and Celeborn not claiming direct rule over the Silvan elves in Lorien, then I can't see why they would suddenly take Arwen as their "Queen."

It reminds me of a peculiar line in The Hobbit which caused much discussion in the CBC thread:

In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.~A Short Rest

This is strange because it seems to imply an official ruling position over his own Elven house and the Dunedain (people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors). I positted that it was an informal courtesy to Elrond, as his close friendship to the Dunedain and vital role in keeping Isildur's line alive. I mean, Elrond even calls Aragorn "my son" at one point.

But calling Elrond "their chief" would still be a courtesy title, because the Kings of Arnor, and then Chieftain of the Dunedain is an official hereditary position, being what is left of Isildur and Elendil's line. Elrond has no claim to the throne of Gondor, but his kinship and close bond to the Dunedain means he is a revered figure and is informally seen as "a chief" to them.

This is how I read Arwen as "Queen of Elves and Men." It is a courtesy as one of the most respected and high lineage elf remaining in Middle-earth (also her marriage to Aragorn). Being the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, I can surely imagine she was well received in Lorien, but this doesn't mean had an official rulership title as their "Queen." And of course through Elrond she would have his claims.

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death, for there is no point. It's like when Arnor ceased to be a political entity, Amlaith had a claim to be the next "King of Arnor" but fell into dispute. Arnor split and Amlaith had every claim to give himself the title of "King of Arnor" but Arnor no longer existed. So, it really becomes moot and an empty title.

[elbenprincess]

No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.



But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring (because ONLY Gandalf could master the ring) and so is especially Elrond, it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

By the way, when was he rejecting the idea of creating the rings, he wasn´t even asked ;-)

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death

Now it depends which version you believe, but it was CT´s take his father intended Orodreth (sp?) to be father of Gil Galad, so he never could claim the kinship, cause Galadriel would be in the line for queenship.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:
Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.
I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:
And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.
Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?

[cellurdur]

But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring and so is especially Elrond it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

Tolkien is saying this, that out of the others(the good guys) only Gandalf can be expected to master it.
Galadriel thought she could master it too.
If Galadriel could master it then so could the others.
Especially Elrond.
But the ring deludes people.
So Galadriel was probably deluded.

Tolkien has never used greatest to mean the most powerful. In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.

Earendil is the mightiest mariner.
Maglor is the second mightiest singer.
Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor.
Beleg is the mightiest woodsman.
Ar-pharazon is the mightiest Numenor King
Hurin is the mightiest warrior of men.
Hurin is the mightest of men.

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

That aside Tolkien likes to explain his power.Elrond is a descendant of Melian and this means a lot according to Tolkien.

Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.

"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three."

I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Eärendel) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Eärendel, and so the great-grandson of Lúthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder.

It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

Frodo asks:
"What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?"
Gandalf replies:
"Yes, at present, until all else is conquered."

He is the greatest healer in Middle Earth.

Only Cirdan has greater foresight than him and Cirdan has this as a reward from the Valar.
This is what is said about Cirdan's foresight.
This does not include the Istari(who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.

Notice it the fact that he has superior foresight to Elrond is especially highlighted.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar


We have been over this and I have shown how the High Kingship of the Noldor was only passed to males through a male line. Consequently it skipped Elrond, Fingolfin's heir through Turgon and went to Gil-galad the heir of Finarfin. By going to Gil-galad it skipped Galadriel and her daughter Celebrian.

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

[cellurdur]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:

Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?

Yes I do think it is significant that it did not make the Appendix, but no reason is ever given for it. In the Appendix Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is brought up. In other letters it is made apparent that Aragorn would rule over an empire with many kings such as Thorin and Bard pledging allegiance and being placed under his protection. He would then fight many wars in the East all the way to the sea of Rhun. To think the elvish communities in a similar did something similar to Thorin and Bard does not seem a stretch given Arwen's title as the Queen of Elves.

The quotes can be found on Page 196 and 211, The Heirs of Elendil, The Peoples of Middle Earth,

[Galadriel55]

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.

But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! :) I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.


Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words! :eek:

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.

I would argue my points further, but I would just be repeating what has been said multiple times by other posters.

[cellurdur]

Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.
Arwen is not Luthien, but she reminds the elves of her great ancestress. It's not that they are praising Arwen for Luthien's deeds, but in honour of Luthien acknowledging Arwen's right to rule.

You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?

You are wrong about there being no organised war.

Aragorn was forced to fight in many wars.

For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and the evil he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And where the King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South...

There was plainly lots of fighting left to do and near often close to Mirkwood.

Again there is no answer to Tolkien's words that Aragorn soon had an empire.

There is nothing said about his title as King of the West.

You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?

Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?

That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.

Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.
Of course she would she was the Queen of Gondor and other realms.

But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!
No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.

Aragorn is King of the West. Arwen is Queen of Elves and Men.

Bard and Thorin are both said to be under the crown.

Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! :) I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.
I have never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel. I pointed out she was more beautiful and less flawed. I never argued she was greater or more powerful. I simply defended Arwen and pointed out that she was powerful and great in her own right.

I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.
Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.

About Faramir

He (Faramir) read the hearts of men as shrewd as his father.

I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?

You mean like Melian played no role in ruling Doriath? Arwen was very great and queenly.

Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.

Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?

Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words! :eek:

The Dunedaid did not have the money, the power or the opportunity to restore their kingdom. When Sauron was defeated and they had peace they were once again able to restore their previous lands. If the lands of Lindon and Eregion were being abandoned by the elves, who had rights to them? They come down to Aragorn and Arwen and this is why he was King of the West and not just Arnor and Gondor or even the Reunited Kingdom.

But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.
I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.

She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.
Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.

It is nonsense to use the Helcaraxe as an example since it was never an Elvish Kingdom.

What do you think happened when Elendil and his sons arrived in ME? What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do? Seeing a great and fair ruler like Elendil he humbly accepted him as his overlord. The Numenoreans of Gondor and Arnor accepted that Elendil as the heir of Elros had a right to the kingship and submitted to his power.

It would seem a similar thing happened when Arwen was appointed Queen as with Elendil's return. Or do you think it is strange that the Faithful in ME readily accepted Elendil as their king and wanted to be part of his empire?

[elbenprincess]

It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar


It´s Galadriel who holds Saurons army out of Lorien and the Witch King feared her, sauron percived at once that she would be his chief obstacle and there is no proof that Elrond was the mightiest elf out of the non Maia, (more powerful even than Fingolfin and Feanor, or just third age?)that is very far fetched, as a equal of Feanor and the greatest of the elves of Valinor with Feanor and Galadriel being more older, having seen the the light of the trees and being tutored by Melian would make her innate more powerfl. And I think greatest to a degree means the most powerfl too, Sauron was Morgoths greatest servant and we know he was the most powerful.

Galadriels seems to have more effect in Lorien than Elrond in Rivendel, time flew differently

Yes, he defeates all 9 together, with the flood but IMHO, if Galadriel is able to bring down walls and send a mist (so she has power over elements too) she would be able to do the same.

IMHO you read this "especially Elrond" the wrong way, and even if you read it right, it was probably written before Galadriels might emerged in Tolkiens mind.

In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.

Elrond is never called the mightiest, so assuming that is only your opinion. Galadriel however is said to be the mightiest of the elves in the third age and because Elrond chose to be conted among the Eldar he is included in that quote.

Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.


Only if you read the passage like you do and true, he holds the mightiest of the three, but he wasn´t even the original bearer and it was coincidence that he got the ring, would Gil Galad haved survived, Elrond would´t have a ring.

[elbenprincess]

It seems to me you main argument is that he is decended from Melian (so would Elwing and Dior more powerful than Galadriel too? I seriously doubt that) and teh passage, which meaning is not very clear and debatable. But he doesn´t show some deeds so one could assume that he has more power, Galadriel makes the more magical impression in Lotr. Galadriels home is next to the home of the enemy, while Elrond is hidden in a valley and not easy to find, nothing indicates that he uses the same magic Galadriel does to defend his home. He is shown to have control over the river, he is the best in healing, very wise and fought in a war, but sorry I see no evidence that supports your claim. Like I said, Galadriel did simarlar deeds with her destroying the walls of Dol Goldr and sending the mist, furthermore she gave the fellowship lembas, which was a magical deed to do and the phial, and from he phial I got the impression that this is not something everyone could do. Not to forget the mallon seed, there was some power in the dust and seed so that the shire was beautiful again.

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

She wanted Gandalf to be the head of the council which she summoned, not Elrond, but it seems that she was the one who wanted that. Already at that early point she sensed that Saruman would betray them and so mistrusted him from the beginning.

I don´t think Elrond or Cirdan (even if he have him his ring) would have voted for Gandalf, because that would go against the wishes of the Valar, but Galadriel, like always did not care, and was proven right.

For me it is really impressive that she was able to see the potential evil in him, which the Valar couldn´t, save Varda, she seemingly sensed the same.

Not to forget the mirror of Galadriel. She was able to see the past, the presend and the future, that is a powerful tool. All that claims that she is inherntly more powerful than Elrond.

Actually there is no need in proving that, you just have to look what Tolkien wrote of her in his later days, like for example the equal of Feanor, greatest of the Eldar of Valinor and mightiest and greatest of the Eldar in the third age quote and Elrond, even if half-elven, is included in that, because he made the decission to belong to the elves.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.
So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

[cellurdur]

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?
Who said Elrond wanted to be king? Did Elrond even have the means to be a king? You might as well as why Luthien did not become Queen of Doriath.

That apart circumstances change. Being united to a great confederation is a great pull. Just look at how keen people are to join the European Union.

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).
There is much Tolkien does not mention except in the Appendices. This was a development that would begin in the fourth age. It is still an idea Tolkien retains and we have further evidence of other kingdoms willingly joining .

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.
Well the relationships between each kingdom and Aragorn seemed depended on what they wished. Rohan and a lot of the Shire were not under the crown, but Dale was and Umbar. You are too keen to dismiss Arwen's royal title and ignore the many other examples of kingdoms desiring to be linked to King of the West.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.
Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

Why would all the Sindar have left? As I said it would take perhaps a 100 years for all the elves to leave and this was if they wanted to leave immediately after the end of the fourth age.

The Sindar kings of the wood elves are in a similar position to the Numenoreans in ME, when Elendil arrived. What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do when Elendil had established a kingdom? He accepted Elendil's position as the faithful heir of Elros and consequently ruler of the Numenoreans. Why wouldn't the Sindar now that Arwen was Queen of a great kingdom?

Even if Eregion and Lindon were emptying, the land was hers by right. Aragorn was a just king and would not expand into land, which did not belong to him. What other kings did after was there business, but Aragorn would only take lands, that wished to join or were his by right.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.
Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).
Yes, but not immediately and many would remain until the death of Aragorn.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.
Yes, but Arwen also inherited the lands, which were hers by right.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.
There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.
If being the Queen of Elves meant nothing, then why was Arwen given the title, when Galadriel and Elrond never took royal titles? It must have had some significance and we can see that other kingdoms including even dwarves wished to be under the crown.

[cellurdur]

It seems to me you main argument is that he is decended from Melian (so would Elwing and Dior more powerful than Galadriel too? I seriously doubt that) and teh passage, which meaning is not very clear and debatable. But he doesn´t show some deeds so one could assume that he has more power, Galadriel makes the more magical impression in Lotr. Galadriels home is next to the home of the enemy, while Elrond is hidden in a valley and not easy to find, nothing indicates that he uses the same magic Galadriel does to defend his home. He is shown to have control over the river, he is the best in healing, very wise and fought in a war, but sorry I see no evidence that supports your claim. Like I said, Galadriel did simarlar deeds with her destroying the walls of Dol Goldr and sending the mist, furthermore she gave the fellowship lembas, which was a magical deed to do and the phial, and from he phial I got the impression that this is not something everyone could do. Not to forget the mallon seed, there was some power in the dust and seed so that the shire was beautiful again.
The passage is very clear and even more so if you take into account the context of character. Elwing and Dior were powerful, but we really do not know much about them. Elwing was able to learn to fly and Dior dies very early before they can mature and grow in power. Dior at the least was a great warrior and one of the best elvish fighters.

Elrond has an enchantment around Rivendell making it difficult to find, is the greatest healer, has the second greatest foresight, the most lore and himself was a great warrior.

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

You are just making things up. She had no authority over the eagles. No one did.

She wanted Gandalf to be the head of the council which she summoned, not Elrond, but it seems that she was the one who wanted that. Already at that early point she sensed that Saruman would betray them and so mistrusted him from the beginning.

I don´t think Elrond or Cirdan (even if he have him his ring) would have voted for Gandalf, because that would go against the wishes of the Valar, but Galadriel, like always did not care, and was proven right.

For me it is really impressive that she was able to see the potential evil in him, which the Valar couldn´t, save Varda, she seemingly sensed the same.
Going against the Valar's wishes is not a good thing. Elrond was the one, who constantly argued against Saruman's council.

He said he felt the ring would be found.
He urged them to attack Dol Guldur earlier.

Elrond, however, respected the hierarchy the Valar had put in place as did Gandalf.

Not to forget the mirror of Galadriel. She was able to see the past, the presend and the future, that is a powerful tool. All that claims that she is inherntly more powerful than Elrond.
Nope Elrond had greater knowledge about the lore of the past and greater foresight of the future.

We have been over this and will not get into it again. I have shown and given countless quotes showing Elrond was not one of the Eldar, but one of the Half-elven.

[QUOTE=elbenprincess;677815]It´s Galadriel who holds Saurons army out of Lorien and the Witch King feared her, sauron percived at once that she would be his chief obstacle and there is no proof that Elrond was the mightiest elf out of the non Maia, (more powerful even than Fingolfin and Feanor, or just third age?)that is very far fetched, as a equal of Feanor and the greatest of the elves of Valinor with Feanor and Galadriel being more older, having seen the the light of the trees and being tutored by Melian would make her innate more powerfl. And I think greatest to a degree means the most powerfl too, Sauron was Morgoths greatest servant and we know he was the most powerful.

Galadriels seems to have more effect in Lorien than Elrond in Rivendel, time flew differently
The same with Rivendell, but Elrond held off the armies of Sauron.

Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.

Yes, he defeates all 9 together, with the flood but IMHO, if Galadriel is able to bring down walls and send a mist (so she has power over elements too) she would be able to do the same.

IMHO you read this "especially Elrond" the wrong way, and even if you read it right, it was probably written before Galadriels might emerged in Tolkiens mind.

Elrond remained a great power through out Tolkien's legendarium. You cannot make an argument on things Tolkien may have done. We have the myths as they are laid out.

Elrond is never called the mightiest, so assuming that is only your opinion. Galadriel however is said to be the mightiest of the elves in the third age and because Elrond chose to be conted among the Eldar he is included in that quote.

Again Elrond was never an Elf. We have a direct comparison in their innate power in wielding the ring and Sauron is said to be more powerful.

Only if you read the passage like you do and true, he holds the mightiest of the three, but he wasn´t even the original bearer and it was coincidence that he got the ring, would Gil Galad haved survived, Elrond would´t have a ring.
Gil-galad gave Elrond the ring long before he died. So yes he would still have received the mightiest of the rings.

[elbenprincess]

Nope Elrond had greater knowledge about the lore of the past and greater foresight of the future.

What, Elrond has greater knowlege about the past than Galadriel who actually experianced that??!! And who was a match for the loremaster in Valinor, so that would include Rumil An Elven loremaster, the inventor of written letters. His invention was later bettered by Fëanor, but Rúmil remains famous as the originator of writing.
And could look more into the future like Galadriel, who is said to be able to look in the future via her mirror? Forsight is kinda different than looking into the future.

I have shown and given countless quotes showing Elrond was not one of the Eldar, but one of the Half-elven.

He chose to be counted among the Eldar and is included if Tolkien talks about elves. Even Arwen was acounted as Eldar, i.e. third marriege between the Eldar and Edain. He had to chose for one and all, beacuse there should be no in-between race, that however doesn´t change what he is genetically.Where´s the problem? He belongs to the elves, Arwen belongs to men, Elros belogs to men, Tuor belongs to the elves, more be precise to the Noldor.

Really, I don´t understand! Galadriel + Feanor = equal (according to Tolkien) and greatest of the Noldor (whatever greatness means) So how can Elrond be more powerful than Galadriel if Galadriel was equal in might to Feanor.

Going against the Valar's wishes is not a good thing. Elrond was the one, who constantly argued against Saruman's council. Where and when?

Ah OK, even if Galadriel know for sure that she was doing the right thing, because Saruman was not trustworthy, she shouldn´t do it because it´s against the valar wishes. If that is true, why had she got a brain?

It´s hopeless.

[cellurdur]

What, Elrond has greater knowlege about the past than Galadriel who actually experianced that??!! And who was a match for the loremaster in Valinor, so that would include Rumil
And could look more into the future like Galadriel, who is said to be able to look in the future via her mirror? Forsight is kinda different than looking into the future.

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.

Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.

He chose to be counted among the Eldar and is included if Tolkien talks about elves. Even Arwen was acounted as Eldar, i.e. third marriege between the Eldar and Edain. He had to chose for one and all, beacuse there should be no in-between race, that however doesn´t change what he is genetically.Where´s the problem? He belongs to the elves, Arwen belongs to men, Elros belogs to men, Tuor belongs to the elves, more be precise to the Noldor.
Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.

Elrond is never called an elf lord.

Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.

Tolkien took great pains to never mention Elrond as an elf. If you really want then I will provide several quotes showing you Elrond was never an Elf.

Really, I don´t understand! Galadriel + Feanor = equal (according to Tolkien) and greatest of the Noldor (whatever greatness means) So how can Elrond be more powerful than Galadriel if Galadriel was equal in might to Feanor.
1. Elrond was not of the Noldor.
2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.


We have a direct comparison between the two and Elrond is shown to be stronger. You cannot refute this direct comparison.

Ah OK, even if Galadriel know for sure that she was doing the right thing, because Saruman was not trustworthy, she shouldn´t do it because it´s against the valar wishes. If that is true, why had she got a brain?

It´s hopeless.

Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.

[elbenprincess]

2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.

How do you know that, Tolkien didn´t write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.
Today 09:29 AM

Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didn´t want there to be a in-between race, that´s the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I can´t remember where.

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories.

Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesn´t mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.

Elrond was not of the Noldor

Of course he is not, but he can not match Feanor and if Galadriel is short behind Feanor, or even his equal then logic says us that Elrond is inferior to Galadriel. Method of elimination.

[cellurdur]

How do you know that, Tolkien didn´t write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.

Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.
This is my fault, I accidentally put the comma in the wrong place. I meant Gandalf the wisest of the Maiar accepted Saruman as the head.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didn´t want there to be a in-between race, that´s the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I can´t remember where.

I don't remember reading anything of the sort and the Half-Elven are their ow separate race, at least until the elvish blood thinned to a great extent. Earendil especially just gets the best qualities from both races.

Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesn´t mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.
The previous quote about Cirdan's knowledge of the future surpassing even Elrond in Middle Earth is enough to show he had greater knowledge of the future.

As for Lore he is said to be

Wise in all Lore

about the lay of Luthien.

and there are none now , except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.


where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt greatest of lore masters

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

[Galadriel55]

You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?

Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?

They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.

Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?

She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.

Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.

No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.

At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.

Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.

Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?

Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.

Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?

For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.

This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.

Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.

Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.

Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.

Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.

There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.

Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.

Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.

Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?

Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.

Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.

Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.

Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.

Elrond is never called an elf lord.

And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.

Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.

Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.

Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.

Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.

Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.

[Galadriel55]

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.

[Boromir88]

Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:

"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlorien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you." he answered.~The White Rider

Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

"They answered a summons, as you heard" said Gimli. "Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred! Let the Dunedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess."
"Nay, Galadriel," said Legolas. "Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company through the North?"
"Yes, you have it," said Gimli. "The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires..."~The Passing of the Grey Company

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.

There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.~Appendix B: Tale of Years

The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say. :D

[cellurdur]

The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.
Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

The other part of it is that Lothlorien is the elves in their own element. In their own natural kingdom. Rivendell is just a refuge.
As Sam puts it.

They're all elves enough, but they are not all the same. Now these folk are not wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than the Hobbits in the Shire.-LOTR

That said the magic in Rivendell is different. It is a perfect house.

“Rivendell was the perfect house, whether you liked food or story-telling or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all. Merely to be there was a cure for weariness, fear and sadness.”

Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

Of course Aragorn would protect them no matter what, but at the same time people want to be associated with his kingdom. There is one thing being a family friend, but it is another thing being adopted into the family.

With Arwen the Sindar are likely to view it as a continuation of Thingol's rule. The Numenoreans on ME did a similar thing with Elendil. Accepting Elendil as king was a way to hark back to the days of Elros.

They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.
When it comes to Dale and the Mountain, it is outright stated they accepted Aragorn's sovereignty.

Arwen is Queen of the Elves. A title not claimed by anyone since Thingol. It obvious has more meaning than the a courtesy.

I have already mentioned how being part of a kingdom is often more attractive than just being a friend. If only for a short while being ruled under Thingol's heir would remind the Sindar of the old days, of Dior and Thingol.

She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

Well that was her title and it means she was in a realistic way. To dismiss the text when it clearly spells it out is to go against what the author is telling us. Nobody had claimed such a title on ME since Thingol.

Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.
Tuor leads the exiles of Gondolin and rules them.
Turin all but in name rules Nargothrond.
Dior one of the Half-elven actually is king in name and actuality of Doriath.

The elves are not rushing to become part of Gondor. They are joining the united alliance and accepting Arwen as their Queen.

Tuor and Turin despite ruling had no legitimate claim to the kingship. Dior does and all the Sindar acknowledge him as Thingol's heir and king. The same applies to Arwen.

Elendil and the Prince of Dol Amroth is the perfect example. Actually the Princes of Dol Amroth even accept Isildur and Anarion due to them being heirs of Elros. Arwen is the heir of Thingol, the heir of Finarfin, the Heir of Elwe and the heir of Fingolfin.

At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.
No Rohan and the Shire had mutual relationships, without being under the crown. This seems to be a different case with Dale and the Mountain. They want to be under the crown. People have their pride and they want to be associated with winners. For hundreds of years after the fall of the Roman empire, any claim to rule most of western Europe was based on descent from Rome.

As for the elves they would not just be accepting a winner, but harking back to their glory days. By accepting the heir of Thingol, who had once taken the title King of Elves.

Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?[/QUOTE[
No, but it does not mean what you think it does. Though in that context the 'hearts' and 'minds' of men mean the same thing. It is the ability to read men and judge how they act and want to act. Galadriel had a special talent for this.
[QUOTE]
For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

Simply, because she is great, noble and fair is a reason to let her rule. The elves of Nargothrond give Turin the rule of the city for such reasons. That apart there is also her rightful descent as heir to Thingol and the memory of Luthien.

Why did Thingol adopt Turin if not for the bravery of Hurin? Why did the elves accept Dior as king if not for the deeds of Luthien, Beren and Thingol.

In Arwen even for a briefest of moments was a chance to recall the glory of Doriath when Luthien was there. The palace in Mirkwood, is but a cheap copy of Menegroth.

This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.
Power no matter whether it being innate, political or physical is in the what you can do in a certain area. It means being the best in the field.

Greatness is linked to more to what you achieved, how you are perceived and power is mixed in there too. The next Prince of Dol Amroth will immediately become a greater noble than Faramir when he takes the principality.

Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?
The difference is that Arwen is not some neighbouring monarch. She is the rightful heir Thingol. She looks like Luthien.

Many times in history countries have accepted kings from other lands, because they were the rightful heir. England and Scotland were eventually united, because King James was heir of England and Scotland. England happily accepted a Scottish King. There are many examples of this across history.

Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.
Mirkwood is ruled by the Sindar and would have a mixed population. They accepted a Sindar to rule them once, why would they complain when an even greater Sindar accepted by their king. To see Arwen is to be reminded of Luthien. The hatred Thranduil bears for the dwarves is linked to the fall of Doriath.

Look at the modern example of Prince Michael of Kent and how he is courted in Russia due to his resemblance to the Tsar. The situation is infinitely greater with Arwen, who resembles the greatest and most loved out of all elves.

Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.
Yes and so why would they argue if Thranduil wanted to accept Arwen as his queen? Though again this is moot, because Arwen IS the Queen of Elves. Arguing about how this happened and why is another thing, but it is a fact. Arwen was the Queen of Elves. Not a particular area, but of elves.

Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

No it was not attacked, but we are told that it has enough power to withstand him for a while. So if Sauron had reached Lindon then they would be able to hold out. Since they did not have an powers as great as Glorfindel, Elrond or Galadriel there or a great elven ring, it says a lot about the numbers they must have had.

Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.
You could say that, but you would be going against the text. Silmaril enraged Carcharoth is mightier than Glaurung and the mightiest thing that Morgoth let loose until Ancalagon. We have no idea of how mighty Ancalagon's spirit, but overall he was the most powerul thing.

Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?
The point is he was involved in deeds she had no part. He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?

Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.
This is true, but the abilities are certainly linked and even more so when it comes to elves. Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood. The Dunedain of the North have this ability too. They are able to see the future. Aragorn sees that Elrond will soon leave ME, Gandalf will die etc. Only Cirdan exceeded Elrond, because of a special gift he received by sacrificing his desires, honour and happiness for th Valar.

When talking about Cirdan, who had this gift to see the future further than Elrond this is said.

'He (Cirdan) is said to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth- Later Writings, The Peoples of Middle Earth

From that moment Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other elves in Middle Earth-Later Writings, the People of Middle Earth

So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.
No I look at the text and try to examine what it says without bias. Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.

Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.
And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.
Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.
Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.
Again if you want to discuss this in detail I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar. I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.

Aragorn was not completely a man and this is solely why he can perform Elvish magic. It is why he can see into the future and his ancestors could make blades with spells. Why else do you think Aragorn takes the sons of Elrond with him to heal? Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.
Saruman was the leader of the Istari. For good or for ill he was Saruman the White. For Gandalf to take over leadership even of the White Council without any reason would be usurping power that did not belong to him. You will notice it is a theme of Tolkien that trying to gain more power than is yours naturally is evil and usually backfires. While those that are humble often end up gaining more.

[cellurdur]

Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:
Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.
Yes and Tolkien actually does talk about this.

The quote I provided was from Page 398, Myths transformed Morgoth's Ring.

I will provide the full quote, but will have to type it up.

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.

He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it. Galadriel had an exceptional and the greatest skill for the first aspect.

Here are the quotes from Page 338 Shibboleth of Feanor, the People of Middle Earth.

From her (Galadriel) earliest years she had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

He continues about how pride stopped her tuning back and she was still too proud to return. He goes on about how only when the One Ring came into her possession did she finally have the means to gain what she wanted in her youth.

It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion over Middle Earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test she departed from Middle Earth forever.

What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.




There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say. :D
Lothlorien still has a much greater population and army than Rivendell. That apart people ignore how Sauron DID actually come to Rivendell and was still unable to conquer it. This was Sauron with the One Ring and Elrond without Vilya.

That apart the quote does not take into account Sauron unnaturally empowering one of his servants. The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.

[elbenprincess]

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.

That´s right she is never called the mightiest of the Noldor, but it is strongly implied. In what else should she be his equal then? Proabaly Tolkien just don´t got arond saying she was with Feanor the mightiest or thought that the "greatest" term says it all.

He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?

"How could she possibly no more about Gondolin" maybe becasue she visited?!!? There is no prove and even if she didn´t visit, King of Gondolin was her cousin, so one could assume that she knew alot abot it.

Galadriel spoke to people Elrond never spoke to, the Valar and that surely leaves a deeper mark than Elrond talking with some men.

I´m pretty sure she knew the sons of Feanor very well, growing up with them.

Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood.

Quote please. :)

So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.

Where is it stated?

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents.

Oh I so much agree.

Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.

I agree with Cirdan but I really don´t know what makes you think that Elrond has this power. Where is it stated or implied? Only being a decendant of Melian does not make you stronger than other elves (if we leave Luthien out). Elwing and Dior obviosly were not more mighty, same goes with Arwen and the twins.

I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar

I can show you a quote that he was counted as one of the Eldar!

When Tolkien was finishing his Lord of the Rings in the early 1950s he fell back again on his manuscript of the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s. In the last version of this text “Elrond Halfelven” finally decides – “as was grantet to him” – (HoMe V, p. 332) to be counted among the Eldar while Elros decides to be counted among men.

It was so hard to find it.

I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.

Wow, that would be really new to me.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

Well, I never saw him writing: The elves of the third age and Elrond half-elven. It´s just always the elves or Eldar.

One example: But the promise made to the eldar (the high elves – not to other varieties, they had log before made their irrevocable choice, preferring ME to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime dark lord had still to be fullifield: that they should always be able to leave M E, if they wished and pass over sea to the true west, by the straight road and so come to eressea.

I would gues that Elrond could go too, but he didn´t wrote "The promise made to the Eldar and the Peredhil..." so Tolkien is talking in generel in these aspeks and even if he really wants to avoid calling him an elf, in this matter it is correct, cause this Peredhil belongs to the elves.

What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.

"To me it seemed exceedingly strange," said Boromir. "Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose;" Boromir

Boromir said that she was reading his mind and he shold now it.

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.


It seems Tolkiens proved himself otherwise or he just changed his mind on this matter.

And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head.

At length the Lady Galadriel released them from her eyes, and she smiled. 'Do not let your hearts be troubled,' she said. 'Tonight you shall sleep in peace.' Then they sighed and felt suddenly weary, as those who have been questioned long and deeply, though no words had been spoken openly.
'If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn't got nothing on, and I didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own.'

There was more going on than just guessing.

The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.

But still he wold not be able to conquer Lothlorien, for only Sauron in person would have the needed power to do so.

He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it.

I´m not saying that Galadriel did that, cause Sauron in clearly not a lesser mind, but it would be an explanation if one really sticks to the these that Galadriel read Saurons mind (which I do, cause she said so). But would it still be considered evil if the person has a good purpose? I don´t think so, if the outcome is good, it cold be seen as an exceptional case.

certain parts of their thoughts

"Certain parts of their thoughts" would explain why she only knew ... "or all of his mind that concerns the Elves

I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.

Yes, I did not express myself well, she has no authority. I think it´s just nice to see that Gwaihir "is working together with her in that case" regardless her past and him being an eagle of Manwe.

[cellurdur]

That´s right she is never called the mightiest of the Noldor, but it is strongly implied. In what else should she be his equal then? Proabaly Tolkien just don´t got arond saying she was with Feanor the mightiest or thought that the "greatest" term says it all.

No it is not strongly implied. She is said to be mighty among the Noldor, but not one of the mightiest.

"How could she possibly no more about Gondolin" maybe becasue she visited?!!? There is no prove and even if she didt visit, King of Gondolin was her cousin, so one cold assme that she knew alot abot it.
Gondolin was a secret city, that no one was allowed to enter. Galadriel did not visit the place.

Galadriel spoke to people Elrond never spoke to, the Valar and that surely leaves a deeper mark than Elrond talking with some men.
Yes it has a mark, but we are talking about all lore. The Noldor actually were not as close the Valar as were the Vanyar. They tended to stay in Tirion.

I´m pretty sure she knew the sons of Feanor very well, growing up with them.

She did not associate with them. Elrond was raised by them especially and Galadriel's time with them was before there deeds in ME.

Quote please. :)

Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children to part either with you or with Middle-earth."

In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men. And from these brethren alone has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda; for they were the sons of Elwing, Dior's daughter, Luthien's son, child of Thingol and Melian; and Earendil their father was the son of Idril Celebrindal, Turgon's daughter of Gondolin" -War of Wrath, Silmarillion

Aragorn's 'healing' might be considered as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not a pure 'Man', but a long remove on of the 'children of Luthien'-letter 155

But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Lúthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.-Silmarillion

Pengolodh here elaborates (though it is not necessary for his argument) this matter of "foresight". No mind, he asserts, knows what is not in it. All that it has experienced is in it, though in the case of the Incarnate, dependent upon the instruments of the hröa, some things may be "forgotten", not immediately available for recollection. But no part of the "future" is there, for the mind cannot see it or have seen it: that is, a mind placed in time. Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose (such as the Ainur who are now the Valar in Eä). An Incarnate can thus only know anything of the future, by instruction derived from the Valar, or by a revelation coming direct from Eru. But any mind, whether of the Valar or of the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass. This is not foresight, not though it may be clearer in terms and indeed even more accurate than glimpses of foresight. Not even if it is formed into visions seen in dream, which is a means whereby "foresight" also is frequently presented to the mind.
Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called "foresight" in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be "foresight" at second hand-Vinyar Tengwar

True foresight where one really sees the future can only come from the Ainur. Usually it is from divine revelation from the Valar. The foresight in just predicting the future; all of the Wise have.

Where is it stated?
I thought it was obvious from the quote that Cirdan's foresight exceeded EVEN Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel.. Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.

I agree with Cirdan but I really don´t know what makes you think that Elrond has this power. Where is it stated or implied? Only being a decendant of Melian does not make you stronger than other elves (if we leave Luthien ot). Elwing and Dior obviosly were not more mighty, same goes with Arwen and the twins.
Dior defeated one of the strongest sons of Feanor and we know litte else of his deeds. Elwing learns to talk to birds and can fly. Have you seen any elf fly?

As for Cirdan, I have already provided the quote, that his knowledge exceeding Elrond in particular was noted.

I can show yo a qote that he was connted as one of the Eldar!
It was so hard to find it.

No that quote just shows he would have eternal life, in the same way Elros would be mortal.

Wow, that would be really new to me.
Good good. It is always nice to learn something new.

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : THERE ARE ONLY 2 CASES only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all. -Letter 153

The part in capital is my own.

Well, I never saw him writing: The elves of the third age and Elrond half-elven. It´s just always the elves or Eldar.

One example:

I would gues that Elrond could go too, but he didn´t wrote "The promise made to the Eldar and the Peredhil..." so Tolkien is talking in generel in these aspeks and even if he really wants to avoid calling him an elf, in this matter it is correct, cause this Peredhil belongs to the elves.
No he is speaking about the promise made to the Elves. The promise was not the one given to the Half-Elven. Perhaps you should read full the entire quote, before you provide it, because it might actually come back to disproof what you are tempting to proof.

The full quote actually shows that Elrond and the Half-elven are once again separated from the Eldar.

"But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea - but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-letter 154

Quite clear he mentions the Eldar and then address Elrond and Arwen separately showing he does not include them with the elves.

"To me it seemed exceedingly strange," said Boromir. "Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose;" Boromir

Boromir said that she was reading his mind and he shold now it.
It seems Tolkiens proved himself otherwise or he just changed his mind on this matter.
Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things. He had let superstition cloud his judgement. Tolkien's words on reading the mind come after LOTR was published.

Tolkien was influenced by Christianity in his work and one key part of Christianity is that only God can read a person's mind. This is why he went to great pains to clarify the situation after LOTR.

[elbenprincess]

I thought it was obvious from the quote that Cirdan's foresight exceeded EVEN Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel.. Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.

I never disagreed about Cirdan, but there is no prove Elrond has the greatest foresight after Cirdan just becase of that:

Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him

Again, you have not proven that Elrond is the one with the greater foresight and knowlege in lore than Galadriel, who already was a match for the loremasters in Valinor. It just says that the foresight of his kindred came to him, besides the Maiar, his kindred is also Noldor, Sindar and men.
You just have to look on their actions and you see who is inhernently more powerful.

Gondolin was a secret city, that no one was allowed to enter. Galadriel did not visit the place.

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.

Yes it has a mark, but we are talking about all lore. The Noldor actually were not as close the Valar as were the Vanyar. They tended to stay in Tirion.

The Noldor in generel were pupil of Aule and furthermore Galadriel is said that she was pupil of Yavanna.

Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose

Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.

THERE ARE ONLY 2 CASES only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil

That tells us that Arwen and Aragons union was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Arwen is a decendant of Earendil and maybe he just forgot one union, dunno makes no sense for me. Arwen is as much as an elf as Luthien, even more. I don´t know yet what he tries to tell us with the biological differneces, but why should he suddenly come to the conclusion that the Union between Arwen and Aragon was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Because Arwen was one of the Eldar!

Eldar:
At first, the name was applied to all Elves, but after the summons of the Valar, it came to be used only of the peoples who followed the summons and began the Great Journey.

The term "Eldar" is applied for those who have seen the two trees, or at least began he journey. Furthermore it seems that the elves inherented it from their ancestors. Thingol, saw the two trees and was therefore an Eldar, Luthien did not see the two tress but was also accounted Eldar, so she inherented that from her father, so Arwen would inherent being one of the Eldar not only from Thingol, but also from Galadriel.

If he is explaning to us that it is biological not possible because they are not so similar as we thought always, then Arwen and Aragon match more then the other unions (because Arwen has more mortal blood than Idril or Luthien).

Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Where because of that?: Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him His kindred besides the Maiar are the Noldor and Sindar too, it doesn´t say that he has greater foresight than Galadriel.

Where is Elrond singled ot ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel? Maybe I have overseens omething, but I read no quote that indicates that.

Elwing learns to talk to birds and can fly. Have you seen any elf fly?

Yes, but only because of Ulmos help, I gess he could make very elf fly if he wants.

Perhaps you should read full the entire quote, before you provide it, because it might actually come back to disproof what you are tempting to proof.

You have a point, I don´t have the letter for me and just saw the passage. But I think that could be a coincedence, he just points out that before leaving for Aman they have to make their choice. Arwen wasn´t even born at that time after the War of Wrath so was Elrond. I´m sure there are simililar passages, where Tolkien doesn´t make a difference.

No that quote just shows he would have eternal life, in the same way Elros would be mortal.

It doesn´t show that he would have eternal life (which he doesn´t have at all, they just have long lifespans) it shows that he Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar

I have found this quote:

'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring

I again don´t have the compleate letter but Elrond was urged too, like Gil Galad and Celimbrimbur but they denied, and in that what I see at this point Elrond is not excluded. Like I said, the first quote was coincidence.

Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things. He had let superstition cloud his judgement. Tolkien's words on reading the mind come after LOTR was published.


sure Boromir was wrong on many things, but Tolkien says through Boromir that she read his thoughts. Even it it´s illegal, it´s possible.

Tolkien was influenced by Christianity in his work and one key part of Christianity is that only God can read a person's mind. This is why he went to great pains to clarify the situation after LOTR.

Bt still Tolkiens said No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings The Valar are not able to read the thoghts of other Valar, but of lesser being, like Elves or Men.

You just have to read the chapter, there is no question if she read their thoughts or not.

[cellurdur]

I never disagreed about Cirdan, but there is no prove Elrond has the greatest foresight after Cirdan just becase of that:

The quote shows that Elrond is especially held in high regard in foresight. He alone is singled out as the most surprising that Cirdan had greater foresight.

If that is not enough here is another one from Gandalf implying that Elrond has the greatest foresight.

“He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” -LOTR


Again, you have not proven that Elrond is the one with the greater foresight and knowlege in lore than Galadriel, who already was a match for the loremasters in Valinor. It just says that the foresight of his kindred came to him, besides the Maiar, his kindred is also Noldor, Sindar and men.
You just have to look on their actions and you see who is inhernently more powerful.

The quote was about Aragorn and his kin were the Children of Luthien, of whom Elrond was the oldest, the greatest and the most powerful.

As for lore, this is what Tolkien had to say.

Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore – the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection.-Letter 131

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.
No she cannot.

The Noldor in generel were pupil of Aule and furthermore Galadriel is said that she was pupil of Yavanna.
Elrond was instructed by Eonwe, but that is besides the point. Elrond was renown for being the greatest lore master.

Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.
Elrond could see more of the future than Galadriel and so could Cirdan. The mirror is not something you could use at will to see whatever you wanted. Nobody knew what they would see and the visions did not always come true.

That tells us that Arwen and Aragons union was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Arwen is a decendant of Earendil and maybe he just forgot one union, dunno makes no sense for me. Arwen is as much as an elf as Luthien, even more. I don´t know yet what he tries to tell us with the biological differneces, but why should he suddenly come to the conclusion that the Union between Arwen and Aragon was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Because Arwen was one of the Eldar!

Eldar:


The term "Eldar" is applied for those who have seen the two trees, or at least began he journey. Furthermore it seems that the elves inherented it from their ancestors. Thingol, saw the two trees and was therefore an Eldar, Luthien did not see the two tress but was also accounted Eldar, so she inherented that from her father, so Arwen would inherent being one of the Eldar not only from Thingol, but also from Galadriel.

If he is explaning to us that it is biological not possible because they are not so similar as we thought always, then Arwen and Aragon match more then the other unions (because Arwen has more mortal blood than Idril or Luthien).

In the full quote he goes on to mention Aragorn and Arwen. In fact he repeats there being only two marriages in another letter.

There are thus two marriages of mortal and elf – both later coalescing in the kindred of Earendil, represented by Elrond
the Half-elven who appears in all the stories, even The Hobbit. -letter 131

As for biology he is actually basically saying he does not care if Elves and me should not be the same, because in his story they are.

Where because of that?: His kindred besides the Maiar are the Noldor and Sindar too, it doesn´t say that he has greater foresight than Galadriel.
The kin was the Children of Luthien, the Blessed foremother as Tolkien calls her.

Where is Elrond singled ot ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel? Maybe I have overseens omething, but I read no quote that indicates that.
When it says EVEN ELROND in the quote I have previously provided.

Yes, but only because of Ulmos help, I gess he could make very elf fly if he wants.

No that was the first time, but after that she learned the tongue of birds and the ability to fly, which is a great display of her innate power.

You have a point, I don´t have the letter for me and just saw the passage. But I think that could be a coincedence, he just points out that before leaving for Aman they have to make their choice. Arwen wasn´t even born at that time after the War of Wrath so was Elrond. I´m sure there are simililar passages, where Tolkien doesn´t make a difference.
No there really are not. He always likes to differentiate. For instance Earendil is called the greatest of the Half-elven.

Or when he receives a letter claiming that Arwen was an elf he quickly dismisses this.

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights. Galadriel
('Glittering garland') is the chief elvish woman mentioned in The Lord of the Rings; her daughter
was Celebrían ('Silver queen'). There was also Nimrodel.-letter 345

It doesn´t show that he would have eternal life (which he doesn´t have at all, they just have long lifespans) it shows that he Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar

I have found this quote:
I again don´t have the compleate letter but Elrond was urged too, like Gil Galad and Celimbrimbur but they denied, and in that what I see at this point Elrond is not excluded. Like I said, the first quote was coincidence.

Where does it even remotely suggest Elrond was under the ban or urged to comeback? In fact the story implies the opposite. Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth. Elrond to ensure that men could come into their own in the fourth age. Why else would the Valar send Glorfindel to personally aid him if he was still defying their orders?

sure Boromir was wrong on many things, but Tolkien says through Boromir that she read his thoughts. Even it it´s illegal, it´s possible.
Bt still Tolkiens said The Valar are not able to read the thoghts of other Valar, but of lesser being, like Elves or Men.

You just have to read the chapter, there is no question if she read their thoughts or not.

As I said it is not possible. Read through the book and there are several circumstances of the same thing being said about Gandalf, Aragorn and even Denethor.

That apart by equal beings, he meant all rational creatures created by Eru from Hobbits to dwarves all the way up to the Valar. I can provide the quote if you want extra proof.

Elrond in particularly was a great power that alone without any ring, was able to create and enchantment around Rivendell (along with his army) that not even Sauron with the one ring could break.

The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme westshores,
where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind
of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the
western lands.-Letter 131

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.

No she cannot.

Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.

Elrond could see more of the future than Galadriel and so could Cirdan. The mirror is not something you could use at will to see whatever you wanted. Nobody knew what they would see and the visions did not always come true.

Actually, the Mirror was only completely random when she allowed it to be.
From The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel:
"Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal," she answered, "and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wise cannot always tell."
She clearly had enough control over the Mirror to see what she wished to see, mixed in with other images. The problem was in sorting them out, making sense of them once they were seen. And of course, images of the future might or might not come true.
"Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds."

[elbenprincess]

The quote shows that Elrond is especially held in high regard in foresight. He alone is singled out as the most surprising that Cirdan had greater foresight.

“He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” -LOTR

Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I don´t know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.

You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"

Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore – the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection.-Letter 131

Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesn´t mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.

Where does it even remotely suggest Elrond was under the ban or urged to comeback? In fact the story implies the opposite. Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth. Elrond to ensure that men could come into their own in the fourth age. Why else would the Valar send Glorfindel to personally aid him if he was still defying their orders?

'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring

I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldn´t find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesn´t differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.

"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.

Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind
of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris

It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I don´t get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesn´t go further into detail, it´s not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

No that was the first time, but after that she learned the tongue of birds and the ability to fly, which is a great display of her innate power.

Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I don´t think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesn´t show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I don´t think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.

That apart by equal beings, he meant all rational creatures created by Eru from Hobbits to dwarves all the way up to the Valar. I can provide the quote if you want extra proof.

That would be nice.

Even if she didn´t visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.


No she cannot.

Yes she can.

'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?'

So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she want´s to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and that´s all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.

[cellurdur]

Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I don´t know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.
Gandalf has no problem referring to people Frodo has not heard of like Saruman. Anyway besides that there is the other quote again specifically saying EVEN ELROND. Twice when it comes to foresight Elrond is placed before Galadriel.

You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"
I have already provided you the quote showing he was the greatest lore master. Here it is again. I feel like I am just repeating myself.

This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the elves of a far norther dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." -LOTR

Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesn´t mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.

I have already shown you a quote showing he is the greatest lore master. Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.

I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldn´t find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesn´t differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.[?QUOTE]
Elrond was one of the Half-elven. You seem to miss this fact. How do you think his children were allowed to stay in Middle Earth until he left if the Valar did not wish for him to remain?
[QUOTE]
"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.

Yes many people helped in the overthrowing of Sauron including Galadriel and this was why her ban was overturned. The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.

It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I don´t get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesn´t go further into detail, it´s not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person.
Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Rivendell is special, because Elrond dwells there. You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.

Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I don´t think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesn´t show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I don´t think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.
Have you actually read what happened? Ulmo once turned her into a swan, but later in Aman she spoke with the birds.

"And it is said that Elwing learned the tongue of birds, who herself had once worn their shape; and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver-grey. And at times, when Eärendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the far-sighted among the Elves that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven."
-Silmarillion

Just like with Luthien the power comes from her innate strength.

That would be nice.


'equal beings'*
*[marginal note] All rational minds/spirits deriving direct from Eru are equal-in order and in status-though not necessarily 'coeval' or of like original power.-Morgoth's Ring

Yes she can.

Not in the way you are implying. She could flashes of images with not sound and that is all.

So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she want´s to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and that´s all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.

The quotes are all before you and you can make up your own mind. I have shown that Elrond was not one one of the Noldor or even the Eldar, he was one of the Half-Elven and consistently implied or stated to have the greatest power. No point arguing when all the facts are now bare.

[elbenprincess]

During the council in Rivendell Boromir recalls a dream his brother told him where Faramir hears a voice singing to him. Boromir tells the council that “we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. [B]This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275). Here we can see that Denethor, a Man, was a lore-master or at the very least a master of the lore of Gondor. We also see that Elrond is a lore-master, not only a lore-master but the greatest lore-master in Middle-earth, at least in Boromir’s opinion.

Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things.

You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.

[cellurdur]

You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.

Once again I gave you part of the relevant quote and not the whole thing. Boromir was a man like the Rohirrm. He was a brilliant fighter, a great general, handsome and charismatic, but not interested in lore and other such details.

Look at the quote again. Boromir repeats it, but it does not come from him. It comes from Denethor. A man, who had often used the Palantir was wise and a throw back to the Numenoreans of old. Not only that, but it is something recorded in ancient Gondor history, not the opinion of Boromir the man.

[elbenprincess]

Even if it is Denethor who said it, it is still only his opinion and it´s not even clear if Denethor knows Galadriel, if his son thinks that Galadriel is an evil witch. That is Denethors opinion, but not Tolkiens. It´s the same like Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf, that is her opinion but not neccessarily Tolkiens.

[elbenprincess]

Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.

I can´t remember reading such a quote provided by you and anyway how can he alone remember the anchient stories better or more in detail, than a more ancient person (Galadriel) or do you mean the quote, that his house represents lore? That is hardly convincing.

The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.

Galadriel stayed too becase she wanted see Sauron fall and because Men were important to her. Of course she was banned but even if not, she would not leave ME.

But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor, had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains

In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him

So, she had the same reason to stay as Elrond.

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Actually I thought I know pretty much what happened in the 2nd age but that Sauron came in person to Rivendell is new to me. I searched the Sil and the Internet but I couldn´t find that it was Sauron himself, I just found that:

Angered by this setback, Sauron loosed the hordes of Mordor, six hundred years in the building, and overran Eriador, destroying the land of Eregion where the Rings were made. The Elves called on Númenor for aid, though, and the army of Tar-Minastir put Sauron's forces to rout. After this reverse, Sauron sought instead to build power in the eastern countries, and left the Westlands in peace for many centuries.

True, Elrond and his troops were able to drive Saurons host away, but that happened in many other regions of ME also under Gil-galad, the havens for example were safed. I think the defeat of Saurons troops was more a military act and not very much magic (the rings were not made for war anyway). It´s not like in the third age, where not many elves were left, Elrond would have an army in the second age.

I don´t found anything that indicates that Sauron was in Rivendel.

Many more refugees joined Elrond's host as Sauron ravaged Eriador during the course of the war. By S.A. 1700, Imladris, despite being besieged, was the only part of Eriador not under Sauron's control. It was liberated after Gil-galad's forces, strengthened by the armament sent by Tar-Minastir, routed Sauron's armies and drove him out of Eriador.

Yes, it says that Rivendel was besieged but not that Sauron was there in person and could not enter.

In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.


He wanted to destroy Lindon anyway, together with the havens, independent of Rivedell.

Sauron besieged Imladris, battled Moria and Lothlórien, and pushed further into Gil-galad's realm.

He can hardy be everywhere at the same time, so if it says Saruron besieged Imladris it would be his troops in his name, unless there is a quote which says "Sauron was in person in Rivendel".

You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.

There is no indication that he is the greatest power, unless you accept this "expecially Elrond" in this one letter. But that letter is debatable, many have differnet opinions regarding that. Also again, it´s vague.

This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275) -Boromir

It almost logic that Elrond would be considered the greatest loremaster, he is the most well known, while hardly no one knows Galadriel or has a completely wrong image about her.

In this case I can´t take Bormiers/Denethors opinion serious. Had Gandalf said it, then it wold be another matter but that is not the same as the "not even Elrond can fortell!

I have no problem accepting it but all the quotes you provided one can interpret differntly, there is no explicit statement, such as "Elrond was the greatest power besides the Maiar in ME" or something like that.

Elrond can never be superior to the equal of Feanor, (Galadriel) cause Feanor was the mightiest of the children of Eru (save Luthien). The top 3 of Erus children are definite!

Number 2 and 3 are Feanor and Galadriel, number 1 is Luthien.

'These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,* were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

That I would call a explicit statement. There is no wiggle room.

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the elves.

[cellurdur]

I can´t remember reading such a quote provided by you and anyway how can he alone remember the anchient stories better or more in detail, than a more ancient person (Galadriel) or do you mean the quote, that his house represents lore? That is hardly convincing.

No that was just one of several quotes I have provided. Here it is again.

'I will tell you the tale of Tinueviel.... and there are none now except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.

Galadriel stayed too becase she wanted see Sauron fall and because Men were important to her. Of course she was banned but even if not, she would not leave ME.

That is the difference. Elrond stayed probably in accord with the Valar's wishes much like Cirdan. Galadriel was banned.

So, she had the same reason to stay as Elrond.

Partly, but she also greatly desired to rule Earth and it was not with the Valar's blessing she was staying.

Actually I thought I know pretty much what happened in the 2nd age but that Sauron came in person to Rivendell is new to me. I searched the Sil and the Internet but I couldn´t find that it was Sauron himself, I just found that:



True, Elrond and his troops were able to drive Saurons host away, but that happened in many other regions of ME also under Gil-galad, the havens for example were safed. I think the defeat of Saurons troops was more a military act and not very much magic (the rings were not made for war anyway). It´s not like in the third age, where not many elves were left, Elrond would have an army in the second age.

I don´t found anything that indicates that Sauron was in Rivendel.

Yes, it says that Rivendel was besieged but not that Sauron was there in person and could not enter.

He wanted to destroy Lindon anyway, together with the havens, independent of Rivedell.

He can hardy be everywhere at the same time, so if it says Saruron besieged Imladris it would be his troops in his name, unless there is a quote which says "Sauron was in person in Rivendel".
I hope this does not come across as rude, but you shouldn't just search the net looking for quotes, but read through the entire text. This way you can get the whole picture.

Sauron personally killed Celebrimbor and personally drove Elrond back to Rivendell, where he was unable to break through.

Leaving a huge army on your back is awful tactics in war and Sauron only did so, becaue he wanted the Elvish rings to strengthen his position. When the Numenoreans attacked, Sauron himself almost was killed personally.

In th letters Tolkien clarifies that Elrond's enchantment is what kept Rivendell safe.

There is no indication that he is the greatest power, unless you accept this "expecially Elrond" in this one letter. But that letter is debatable, many have differnet opinions regarding that. Also again, it´s vague
There are many other quotes.

-Boromir

It almost logic that Elrond would be considered the greatest loremaster, he is the most well known, while hardly no one knows Galadriel or has a completely wrong image about her.

In this case I can´t take Bormiers/Denethors opinion serious. Had Gandalf said it, then it wold be another matter but that is not the same as the "not even Elrond can fortell!

I have no problem accepting it but all the quotes you provided one can interpret differntly, there is no explicit statement, such as "Elrond was the greatest power besides the Maiar in ME" or something like that.

Elrond can never be superior to the equal of Feanor, (Galadriel) cause Feanor was the mightiest of the children of Eru (save Luthien). The top 3 of Erus children are definite!

Number 2 and 3 are Feanor and Galadriel, number 1 is Luthien.



That I would call a explicit statement. There is no wiggle room.

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the elves.
Gondor's ancient records and Denethor were well aware of Galadriel. If they praised Elrond, then it was because he was worthy of such praise.

You keep brining old quotes, which have been dismissed.

Greatest does not mean the mightiest.
Elrond is not one of the Noldor or even the Eldar.
We have gone full circle now and there is no point continuing. You are bringing up quotes I gave reasons against right at the start of the discussion.

[elbenprincess]

you keep brining old quotes, which have been dismissed.

Greatest does not mean the mightiest.
Elrond is not one of the Noldor or even the Eldar.
We have gone full circle now and there is no point continuing. You are bringing up quotes I gave reasons against right at the start of the discussion.

Greatness does include many things, it depends on how a person would define greatness. For me greatness contains innate power, political power, deeds, intelligence and might as well.

I pretty much aware that Elrond is not one of the Noldor or Eldar, but if Galadriel bestes the likes of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and every other elf of Valinor and is on par with Feanor (in many things, not only greatness, but even might) then that says everything or would you claim that Elrond is superiour to all the great Noldor like Fingolfin or on par with Feanor himself, whose only equal it is said is Galadriel?

[cellurdur]

Greatness does include many things, it depends on how a person would define greatness. For me greatness contains innate power, political power, deeds, intelligence and might as well.

I pretty much aware that Elrond is not one of the Noldor or Eldar, but if Galadriel bestes the likes of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and every other elf of Valinor and is on par with Feanor (in many things, not only greatness, but even might) then that says everything or would you claim that Elrond is superiour to all the great Noldor like Fingolfin or on par with Feanor himself, whose only equal it is said is Galadriel?

I actually DO think Galadriel is supposed to have more innate power than all those princes with the exception of Feanor, who is the most powerful save Luthien. I also think the text supports Elrond as well being stronger than them.

Nothing in the text has ever suggested Fingon and Turgon had more power than Elrond or Galadriel. Even Fingolfin's greatest skills are in battle.

[Elyna of Rivendell]

I think Arwen in the movies was prettier, don't get me wrong Cate Blanchett is gorgeous too, but Arwen is amazing! However, Galadriel seems to be more powerful and 'elfy' and she also is a seriously awesome woman.

So I think Arwen is prettier, but I think Galadriel is cooler. :D

[Mithalwen]

I think Liv Tyler has one of those faces you love or hate. My young male cousin claimed she looked like an alien and literally couldn't bear to watch her. For me she looked sulky a lot of the time though I have warmed to her in interviews. I thought Cate Blanchett waa perfect. She is a truly great actress and her slightly feline looks give her beauty an otherworldly quality. However to be fair I have never quite decided who I qould have preferred as Arwen.

But beauty is subjective. In objective categories there is no contest. Galadriel wins!;)

[Pervinca Took]

However to be fair I have never quite decided who I qould have preferred as Arwen.

I have, but it's academic because they would have been too old by the time the films were made. I could have seen Jane Lapotaire in the role, or possibly Cherie Lunghi. Madeleine Stowe would probably still have looked young enough, and is closer to the kind of beauty I would associate with Arwen.

Thinking about it ... hasn't occurred to me before, but there's Rebecca Pidgeon (from The Winslow Boy). She would have been excellent. I also think Sandra Bullock is a good actress, and could have conveyed the depth and maturity of Arwen (thinking of her other roles).

But all subjective, as Mithalwen said, and just my own opinions.

I agree that Cate Blanchett was excellent casting, though. There is a kind of translucent quality to her.

[Mithalwen]

Yesxacyoung Madeleine Stowecis the right type. The nearest right age in looks for me is the singer Sophie Ellis Bextor

[Morthoron]

Arwen v. Galadriel?

*blinks*

I wouldn't kick either out of bed for eating crackers.

*shrugs*

[Belegorn]

If I would pick an Arwen it would be Eva Green. She is hot hot hot. Maybe a bit too sexy to be Arwen, but she's still beautiful anyway.

[Mithalwen]

She woud be perfect as Aredhel though. Slight bad girl look.

[Belegorn]

I also think the text supports Elrond as well being stronger than them.

I'm not even sure that Elrond was the most powerful Elf in his own kingdom.

[Snowdog]

Two beautiful Elven ladies - Who would you say is fairest? (Keep your axes at home!)
Galadriel. From my 1st reading of Lord of the Rings I had a thing for Galadriel. That same reading gave me Arwen in the Appendices, and I thought her fair, but I never really had the connection.

[Belegorn]

Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.

[cellurdur]

I'm not even sure that Elrond was the most powerful Elf in his own kingdom.

He wasn't that would be Glorfindel, but he is an exceptional case. His powers were greatly enhanced after his return.

Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.
Elrond was first sent by Gil-galad to help Celebrimbor. He arrives too late and it's here where his forces are about to be destroyed if not for the dwarves. The attack from Moria gives Elrond time to escape and found Imladris.

It's at this point that Sauron forgets about Lindon and goes around securing complete control of Eriador. He has complete control of Eriador except for Rivendell alone. It's only after he still cannot take Rivendell that he then sets his mind on invading Lindon. It's at this point the Numenoreans arrive. His inability to take Imladris is precisely why he had to leave a large part of his army back. It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon.

[Belegorn]

It's only after he still cannot take Rivendell that he then sets his mind on invading Lindon. It's at this point the Numenoreans arrive. His inability to take Imladris is precisely why he had to leave a large part of his army back. It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon.

I don't see it this way. Why did Sauron start the war? He wanted to take the work of the Smiths of Eregion, "the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures... but the Seven and the Three he could not find." . When he realized the Three were not there he tried to torture their location out of Celebrimbor. Sauron did not attack Lindon because he could not take Rivendell. Lindon was where he felt the Rings were being held;

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;" [p. 250]

It is true that Rivendell and Lindon alone of all the lands of Eriador Sauron never took. As he ravaged the lands many fled to Rivendell and it appears Sauron's biggest interest in Rivendell at this point was, "leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" as he "marched west towards the land of Gil-galad" [p. 250]. This detachment was able to lay siege to Rivendell and keep them in check even though Rivendell itself was not overcome. Rivendell itself without the aid of other armies could not take out said detachment, "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed." [p. 251]

You say, "It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon." Sauron's invasion of Eriador began in 1695. Rivendell was not even established until 1697. If you ask me, the process westward was slowly developing. Besides, when Rivendell was founded in 1697 Sauron was chasing the Elves and Dwarves back to Moria.

From the [U]Tale of Years:

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.

[Belegorn]

He wasn't that would be Glorfindel, but he is an exceptional case. His powers were greatly enhanced after his return.

I can't say who exactly is the most powerful Elf in Rivendell. Certainly there were few left for;

"here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269]

Gandalf expounds on the qualities of some of these lords dwelling in Rivendell to Frodo. There were Elves from Aman of great power dwelling there. Who the greatest of them is I cannot guess. Glorfindel points out to Aragorn and the Hobbits;

"There are few, even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south." [bk:1, ch. 12, p. 256]

[cellurdur]

I don't see it this way. Why did Sauron start the war? He wanted to take the work of the Smiths of Eregion, "the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures... but the Seven and the Three he could not find." . When he realized the Three were not there he tried to torture their location out of Celebrimbor. Sauron did not attack Lindon because he could not take Rivendell. Lindon was where he felt the Rings were being held;

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;" [p. 250]

It is true that Rivendell and Lindon alone of all the lands of Eriador Sauron never took. As he ravaged the lands many fled to Rivendell and it appears Sauron's biggest interest in Rivendell at this point was, "leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" as he "marched west towards the land of Gil-galad" [p. 250]. This detachment was able to lay siege to Rivendell and keep them in check even though Rivendell itself was not overcome. Rivendell itself without the aid of other armies could not take out said detachment, "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed." [p. 251]

You say, "It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon." Sauron's invasion of Eriador began in 1695. Rivendell was not even established until 1697. If you ask me, the process westward was slowly developing. Besides, when Rivendell was founded in 1697 Sauron was chasing the Elves and Dwarves back to Moria.

From the [U]Tale of Years:

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.
Leaving a huge army at your back is a terrible mistake. Sauron only left the dwarves behind, because he could not get into Moria.

His aim was to take the rings, but he wanted to destroy everything in his path.

"But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."


"By that time Sauron had mastered all of Eriador save only besieged Imladris."

Sauron did not wish to leave a huge force behind and knew it would weaken his army.

It does not take 2 years to march an army to Lindon from Eriador. The implication of the text was that Sauron was at the siege of Imladris and then finding it too difficult to take, left a large portion of his forces there to go and take Lindon.

[cellurdur]

I can't say who exactly is the most powerful Elf in Rivendell. Certainly there were few left for;

"here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269]

Gandalf expounds on the qualities of some of these lords dwelling in Rivendell to Frodo. There were Elves from Aman of great power dwelling there. Who the greatest of them is I cannot guess. Glorfindel points out to Aragorn and the Hobbits;

"There are few, even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south."

Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

[B]"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."

[Belegorn]

It does not take 2 years to march an army to Lindon from Eriador. The implication of the text was that Sauron was at the siege of Imladris and then finding it too difficult to take, left a large portion of his forces there to go and take Lindon.

Certainly not. I would say he wanted to consolidate his military hold on Eriador before marching further west which is why he had to keep an army back to keep Elrond from attacking his rear after all else was in his hands. It took him 2 years to take Eregion and a further 2 years to consolidate his hold on Eriador. I would not say that in those years for any great length of time he was at war with Rivendell as there was a good deal of migration to it during this period in which "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."

"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250]

If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador?

To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.

[Belegorn]

Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."

I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.

[cellurdur]

I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

[cellurdur]

Certainly not. I would say he wanted to consolidate his military hold on Eriador before marching further west which is why he had to keep an army back to keep Elrond from attacking his rear after all else was in his hands. It took him 2 years to take Eregion and a further 2 years to consolidate his hold on Eriador. I would not say that in those years for any great length of time he was at war with Rivendell as there was a good deal of migration to it during this period in which "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."

"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250]

If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador?

To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.

Consolidating his military hold of Eriador would mean taking out Rivendell. From a strategic point, taking out Rivendell was key and equally key from a personal point of view. Sauron hated Luthien more than anyone else and never forgot that she shamed him. He had a vendetta against all of her descendants. Earendil calling down the power of Valinor would only increase his hatred for Elrond. To think he would spend 2 years without personally trying to take Rivendell seems highly unlikely.

Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first.

It does not say Sauron sent a strong detachment to contain Rivendell, but he left one already in place. It also says he called together his scattered troops and then marched West.

Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador.

It makes no sense for Sauron himself to focus on small groups of elves, whilst his most hated enemy is left alone for two years.

[Belegorn]

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?

[Belegorn]

Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first.

<snip>

Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador.

Here I cannot take you seriously. Do you see the contradiction in your thoughts?

[cellurdur]

Here I cannot take you seriously. Do you see the contradiction in your thoughts?

There is no contradiction.
Sauron takes out Eregion and then turns to drive back the dwarves.
During this time Elrond flees North.
Sauron cannot get through Moria so turns back to conquer Eriador.
He heads North with the bulk of his army to Rivendell.
Elves and men in line of his march start fleeing to Rivendell.
Gets to Rivendell with the bulk of his army and puts it under siege.
Sends out other troops to take areas in Eriador whilst he sieges Rivendell.
After a year or so realises taking Rivendell is too hard and would have a better chance with the rings.
Has to leave a sizeable force at Rivendell and sets out for Lindon.
Calls up another southern army.
Numenoreans arrive.

Fairly straight forward and logical.

Now let's compare it with your version.

Takes Eregion.
Heads back to take out the drawves. Cannot get past Moria.
Decides to take over Eriador.
Sauron personally leads the bulk of his army destroying small groups of men and elves, whilst his most hated enemy is unchecked.
For 2 years he completely ignores his most hated and biggest threat in Eriador.
Decides to invade Lindon.
Suddenly remembers he has left his most hated and biggest threat unchecked in Eriador and only then sends part of his force to siege Rivendell, leaving his army weakened.

Now which seems more logical and makes the most sense?

EDIT

In addition Tolkien meant to develop how Glorfindel was specifically sent by the Valar to help Elrond deal with the wars against Sauron in the second age.

[cellurdur]

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Physical battle is not the only indicator of power. Curufin could capture Luthien, but she was leagues above him in power. Nor did Sauron take out Finrod and Beren by himself in armed combat. How can you say having the help of a very powerful Numenorean Lord like Elendil did not matter?

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.
Only three elves ever slew Maiar. Gil-galad worked in tandem with Elendil. The difference between Glorfindel and the others is that he became MUCH more powerful afterwards.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?
A great deal of power is needed to fight a Maiar of any sort and that is only three elves were able to do so, but defeating someone physically does not mean you are of equal power. Power is not just physical, but also spiritual. Galadriel the mightiest of the elves, who remained is still not likely to be able to defeat Gil-galad in a battle despite being a great warrior herself. Not all power is used just for fight.

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.
It is not a definitive statement, but it implies he was. Added with the all the other bits then he seems to be the most powerful.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.
I never said it was a reference to power alone, but also a place of honour. Elrond as Head of the House would have the head seat. Other indications that Gil-galad was the most powerful is that he is given command of the forces of Rivendell.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?

That would be great except Glorfindel did not remain in Middle-Earth. He died, repented and was greatly enhanced before being sent back alongside the Istari to fight against Sauron.

EDIT
Some further quotes about Glorfindel.

He talks about how Glorfindel being a hero of the first age would be suited to come back then says this.

"This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel."

After talking about his reincarnation.

"We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure almost 'angelic'."

Talks about his friendship with Gandalf and then once more mentions his power.

"he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell..."

[Morthoron]

elf beat other elf? tom not care.

all elf sissy. tom beat elf.

tom have power. tom bot.

tom make sissy elf cry.

Tom Tom's grammar could be neater,

Of that one can't deny;

But worse, he's muddled Bombadil's meter --

For that he should be tried.

[Galadriel55]

Ok, seriously, who is this? Nerwen? Boro? sally? Someone else?

[Morthoron]

tom prose poet.

Tom Tom, a prose poet?

I certainly wouldn't know it.

To capitalize like ee cummings

Takes poor Bomby down a-dumbing.

So please, forsake the ungainly rhyme

And post again some other time.

[Inziladun]

Ok, seriously, who is this? Nerwen? Boro? sally? Someone else?

It's the t(remendously) o(nerous) m(osquitobot) program, determined to suck the fun out of every corner of the 'net and cover us all with imitation Rolex watches and time shares to oceanfront condos in Kansas City!

To stay sort of on-topic in this thread, I'll go with Galadriel as the greater. Standing up to Melian and not giving a straight answer about the flight of the Noldor, forming the White Council, throwing down Dol Guldur with her bare hands, all without mussing her hair, gives her the edge over Daddy's Little Girl™. ;)

[Blind Guardian]

elf girl ugly.

lucyyenic beat elf girl.

lucy siren of cyberspace.

I am stalking your posts now Boro. Keep this up! :smokin:

[Fey]

arwen (and luthien) would probably been considered the most beautiful by most people in middle earth (that is by humans and elves, valar and maiar probably too, but i would think that for example hobbits have different beauty standards. and what would orcs think? do they even find anything beautiful?)

but galadriel actually does something to influence the big events and in her hair is light of the trees, even if her face was ugly, i would still choose her.

[Inziladun]

You know, I think what really would give Galadriel an edge in physical beauty was the fact that she was born in Valinor. That experience had a notable impact on the returning Noldor, and the differences between them and the Moriquendi were visible.
The attractiveness Galadriel would have possessed genetically would have been enhanced by the light of Aman.

[jallanite]

Tolkien in writing The Lord of the Rings was consciously writing a romance, in the traditional sense, in which female beauty is very, very, very important, far more important than male beauty. Compare Tom Bombadil with his wife Goldberry.

But in reality, even in our world and time people have different standards of beauty. I have found that someone whom one person thinks is extraordinarily beautiful another person thinks is only so-so or even worse, and vice-versa. But in a story each reader or listener can insert his or her own ideas of physical perfection. But not in a dramatic representation.

To make it worse, in The Lord of the Rings, female beauty is directly related to a person’s position in the class system. There seems to be no such thing as dirt-poor and powerless, but insanely beautiful. And apparently a female’s moral and spiritual stature is directly related to that female’s beauty and hereditary class position.

This is quite suitable to the genre of romance of course. Things are quite different in the anti-romance Father Giles of Ham.

[Inziladun]

To make it worse, in The Lord of the Rings, female beauty is directly related to a person’s position in the class system. There seems to be no such thing as dirt-poor and powerless, but insanely beautiful. And apparently a female’s moral and spiritual stature is directly related to that female’s beauty and hereditary class position.

You're not counting Ioreth, then? ;)

The point is taken, but maybe Tolkien switched up things with Aldarion and Erendis. She was descended from Bëor, but not royalty, and initially thought Aldarion too high for her station. They married anyway, and of course their union had some unpleasant consequences. Maybe that's why we see the beautiful and powerful women most: they are associated with the more powerful and high-blooded males.

[jallanite]

You're not counting Ioreth, then? ;)

No I am not.

Nor am I counting Éowyn, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, or Shelob or various females mentioned only in the Appendices. Éowyn would fit, as of royal kin and very beautiful.

The point is taken, but maybe Tolkien switched up things with Aldarion and Erendis. She was descended from Bëor, but not royalty, and initially thought Aldarion too high for her station. They married anyway, and of course their union had some unpleasant consequences. Maybe that's why we see the beautiful and powerful women most: they are associated with the more powerful and high-blooded males.

The story “Aldarion and Erendis” appears to me to be somewhat removed from the more romance tale of The Lord of the Rings. It seems to me to be closer in style to the Icelandic sagas.

Yet here too Tolkien writes of Ancalimë, the daughter that Erendis bore to Aldarion:
Even from birth the child was fair, and grew ever in beauty: the woman most beautiful, as old tales tell, that ever was born in the line of Elros, save Ar-Zimraphel the last.
By attributing this information to  “old tales” Tolkien may be suggesting some exaggeration by poets and tale-tellers. Yet here again Tolkien indicates two of the most highly born women are the most beautiful, those famed in story.

As to Erendis daughter of Beregar herself, Tolkien at first only indicates:
There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear, grey eyes of her kin.
But later he writes of Erendis:
… in time she [Erendis] ceased to be abashed, and became aware that men looked with wonder upon her beauty, now come to its full.
It is indeed reasonable that powerful men or elves should take beautiful women as their wives but I feel Tolkien somewhat overdoes the emphasis on beauty.

[cellurdur]

You know, I think what really would give Galadriel an edge in physical beauty was the fact that she was born in Valinor. That experience had a notable impact on the returning Noldor, and the differences between them and the Moriquendi were visible.
The attractiveness Galadriel would have possessed genetically would have been enhanced by the light of Aman.

The biggest enhancer of beauty seems to have been descent from Melian: Luthien most beautiful out of all the children of Eru, Dior second most beautiful out of all the children of Illuvater, Elwing second most beautiful maiden.

Earendil another with surpassing beauty had not see the trees either.

[Morthoron]

Dior second most beautiful out of all the children of Illuvater, Elwing second most beautiful maiden.

Meh. Who wants seconds?

[Galadriel55]

Meh. Who wants seconds?

Seconds? Yes please! I'm still hungry! :D

[Faramir Jones]

When Fëanor married the sculptress Nerdanel, people wondered why he did so, due to her being not particularly beautiful.:confused: But she was creative, strong and wise, the only person whose advice he listened to; and they became the most prolific elvish couple ever, having seven children.:D

[Belegorn]

Sauron takes out Eregion and then turns to drive back the dwarves.
During this time Elrond flees North.

Actually, after Sauron sacked Eregion and could not find what he was looking for [that being "the chief object of Sauron's assuault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures." -249, but not finding all the Rings Sauron tortured Celebrimbor to learn of their whereabouts.] & he could not get Celebrimbor to tell, he "turned upon the forces of Elrond" [p. 250] He was only able turn on the Dwarves after his "host had been attacked in the rear" [250] by them as Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed" [250] if not for their intervention. Interestingly this is basically the same force you claim was able to keep Sauron himself from invading Rivendell, the same Sauron who not only bore the One Ring, but would surely have overthrown Rivendell had he gotten the Ring back in the 3rd Age. Elrond did not even have Vilya at this point. In any case, let's continue.

He heads North with the bulk of his army to Rivendell.
Elves and men in line of his march start fleeing to Rivendell.

After leaving south-eastern Eriador [check a map] he does set out to conquer Eriador, most of which is to the North of where he is which is why anyone running from him would probably flee to the north, as he is coming from the South, and Rivendell being way up to the N-E of the region. But Rivendell is not his goal.

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250]. Why Lindon? Because at Lindon "he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings".

Gets to Rivendell with the bulk of his army and puts it under siege.
Sends out other troops to take areas in Eriador whilst he sieges Rivendell.

The siege is placed on Rivendell so that he can at once set out to his immediate purpose "to take Lindon" and to avoid being taken by surprise from his rear again.

"leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."

It is when he "marched west towards the lands of Gil-galad" that they "ravaged as they went"[ 250]. They also ravaged the lands as he moved from the south back up into the north of Eriador. Again, since fleeing north is a logical thing to do for the Elves as Sauron was coming from the south of Eriador to "gain the mastery of Eriador" [remember, most of Eriador was to the north anyways from his southern position].

After a year or so realises taking Rivendell is too hard and would have a better chance with the rings.

This is the same Elrond whose forces he could have destroyed earlier. Not only that Elrond is not even bearing a Ring of Power and Sauron has the One. Also we know that Sauron could have destroyed Rivendell in the 3rd Age as well. So how is it that with the Ring, being there in person himself, with his armies he can't do it now, against a force we are told not so long ago he would have overwhelmed?

In addition Tolkien meant to develop how Glorfindel was specifically sent by the Valar to help Elrond deal with the wars against Sauron in the second age.

And they got routed by Sauron. If not for the Elves and Dwarves that attacked them from behind Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed".

My point is that Sauron

Invades Eriador, to take the Rings
Fights off Elrond and Celeborn until he sacks Eregion "he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough BOTH to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion." [p. 249]
Chases Elrond and his forces which he could have destroyed had not Elves and Dwarves from Khazad-dûm and Lórinand saved him. "He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear" [p. 250]
Leaves Elrond and chases his saviours to the mines of Moria. "turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back"
Heads north, not to lay a siege on Rivendell, but because most of Eriador is to the north which is where he has to go if he plans on gaining the mastery of it. No clear statement is made that he went North to lay a siege on Gondor, other then that he laid siege to it in order to go west and prevent an attack from his rear. Otherwise it is quite clear that when Sauron went to invade Eriador he, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [p. 249]
He gathers his forces together since he really wants the Rings and leaves a strong force behind to prevent an attack from the rear.
They march west continuing their assault on Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.
They are routed when the Númenóreans arrive and his force at Imladris is trapped between Elrond and Gil-galad's forces and destroyed.
Sauron barely makes it out.

Physical battle is not the only indicator of power. Curufin could capture Luthien, but she was leagues above him in power. Nor did Sauron take out Finrod and Beren by himself in armed combat. How can you say having the help of a very powerful Numenorean Lord like Elendil did not matter?

I never said physical engagement alone indicates one's power. You're trying to act like I'm comparing apples and oranges. You made a point that Glorfindel took out a Balrog because he is a strong Elf. I said that there are also other great Elves who could fight Maia and win, as in the case of Gil-galad, and Ecthelion. You clearly say, "Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer" and I tell you that others have fought Maia as well and won. But when I say this you claim I'm trying to say physical fighting is the only indicator of power. Not so, I'm saying that Glorfindel is not the only Elf who is a Balrog slayer and that Gil-galad took out the greatest of Melkor's servants. The point is how did Gil-galad take out the Balrog, through the power of his mind, spells? He used the tools of war and engaged in physical combat with it and he was not the only Elf to engage a Maia and win this way. That is my point, not that physical strength is the only indicator of power. That, it seems, you pulled out of thin air.

The difference between Glorfindel and the others is that he became MUCH more powerful afterwards.

Where you and I differ in this is that you claim as a result he is the most powerful Elf in M-E at this point. I believe Galadriel is the superior by any standard, and that there are possibly others as well. Btw, just because other Elves did NOT GET to kill a Blarog or some Maia does not mean they couldn't. Please keep that in mind as you give Glorfindel the title, Balrog slayer.

It appears to me you are trying to bring various excuses up to bolster your arguments. Sauron was also beaten in tandem by Luthien and Huan earlier in the first Age, and it is you I believe, who believes Luthien to be the most powerful of all the Elves. So we have Luthien + Huan [The Lay of Leithian; 2726-89] beat Sauron, and Gil-galad + Elendil beat a bolstered Sauron with the One Ring. Why are you trying to belittle Gild-galad's efforts? Sure Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man, but Huan is no cupcake either.

A great deal of power is needed to fight a Maiar of any sort and that is only three elves were able to do so

3 powerful Elves got the opportunity to do so. Again, I want to make it clear, that unlike you, I do not believe that because some other powerful Elf did not get the opportunity does not mean they could not. One of the most incredible things to me was how Fëanor was able to fight against MULTIPLE Balrogs and was only stopped when Gothmog knocked him senseless. He fought hard and long in that affair, fearing not his enemies.

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds" [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125] Though he did not win, and died of his wounds after his sons saved him, he and he alone " was made the mightiest... of all the Children of Ilúvatar" [ch. 11, p. 112]

defeating someone physically does not mean you are of equal power

I said that? I do not recall. If I did I was surely mistaken because I know I do not think that because someone beats another that it necessarily means they are more powerful. Many get their day in the Sun. Éowyn & Merry defeated the Witch-king for instance.

Galadriel the mightiest of the elves, who remained is still not likely to be able to defeat Gil-galad in a battle despite being a great warrior herself.

Possible. She is compared in ways to Manwë and with Melian, but I'm of the opinion that even in her youth she was trained to fight, did fight, and was extremely skilled at it. I think, personally, should could have fought with Gil-galad in a purely physical level [although one needs mental toughness in such endeavors] and won even though we are generally given the view that his was not necessarily her thing, which funnily enough also applies to Sauron.

it implies he was

No it doesn't. Galadriel was. You even mentioned that of the Elves who remained in the 3rd Age from the 2nd [which included Glorfindel because he clearly remained] she was the most powerful.

"she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370]

he seems to be the most powerful

I disagree, that is, "added with the all the other bits" concerning Galadriel. He is powerful, do not get me wrong, but I think there are still others who are like that who "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power" FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 1 p. 269]

Other indications that Gil-galad was the most powerful is that he is given command of the forces of Rivendell

I'm not sure what you mean here, but clearly there may be captains who have mightier officers in their train. Take for instance Glorfindel and Elrond. Was not Elrond in command of forces that included Glorfindel, sent by Gil-galad to aid Celebrimbor? Don't you think the latter is mightier than the former?

Glorfindel did not remain in Middle-Earth

Yes he did. He came back around 1200 of the 2nd Age probably and remained in the 3rd Age. In fact the portion in which Galadriel is said to be the mightiest says "all the Elves" not just of the Eldar who came from Aman.

[Belegorn]

When Fëanor married the sculptress Nerdanel, people wondered why he did so, due to her being not particularly beautiful.:confused: But she was creative, strong and wise, the only person whose advice he listened to; and they became the most prolific elvish couple ever, having seven children.:D

Fëanor had a lot of energy to burn in all spheres, sexual and otherwise, that's why when he died his body turned to ash. He was too hot to trot. :)

[Belegorn]

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor.

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

[cellurdur]

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].



Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.



From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]
Nothing here says he was an elf. Quite the opposite. He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

The Halfevel are never included when the elves are mentioned. Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf. Legolas does not fear the Paths of the Dead, but we must assume the Sons of Elrond did.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]
There's the point. Elrond and Elros always remained Half-elven and had powers of both races. Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man, but a descendant of Luthien.

'Anyway, a difference in the use of ‘magic’ in this story is that it is not to be come by by ‘lore’ or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s ‘healing’ might be regarded as ‘magical’, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and ‘hypnotic’ processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure ‘Man’, but at long remove one of the ‘children of Luthien’-letter 155

[cellurdur]

Actually, after Sauron sacked Eregion and could not find what he was looking for [that being "the chief object of Sauron's assuault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures." -249, but not finding all the Rings Sauron tortured Celebrimbor to learn of their whereabouts.] & he could not get Celebrimbor to tell, he "turned upon the forces of Elrond" [p. 250] He was only able turn on the Dwarves after his "host had been attacked in the rear" [250] by them as Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed" [250] if not for their intervention. Interestingly this is basically the same force you claim was able to keep Sauron himself from invading Rivendell, the same Sauron who not only bore the One Ring, but would surely have overthrown Rivendell had he gotten the Ring back in the 3rd Age. Elrond did not even have Vilya at this point. In any case, let's continue.
The difference is Rivendell had decreased in power with other elves leaving and dying in the Last Alliance. At the same time whilst Sauron would have eventually taken Rivendell in the War of the Ring, it would have been one of the last if not the very last place to fall and would be after everything else had been take. Nothing suggest it would be taken in a short time.

After leaving south-eastern Eriador [check a map] he does set out to conquer Eriador, most of which is to the North of where he is which is why anyone running from him would probably flee to the north, as he is coming from the South, and Rivendell being way up to the N-E of the region. But Rivendell is not his goal.

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250]. Why Lindon? Because at Lindon "he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings".
Except you ignore that his first goal was to gain the mastery of Eriador. You don't just leave a large force undefended at your back. Sauron would have been very foolish to do this without attempting to take Rivendell and we know he did lay siege to it.

The siege is placed on Rivendell so that he can at once set out to his immediate purpose "to take Lindon" and to avoid being taken by surprise from his rear again.

"leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."

It is when he "marched west towards the lands of Gil-galad" that they "ravaged as they went"[ 250]. They also ravaged the lands as he moved from the south back up into the north of Eriador. Again, since fleeing north is a logical thing to do for the Elves as Sauron was coming from the south of Eriador to "gain the mastery of Eriador" [remember, most of Eriador was to the north anyways from his southern position].
What you are saying makes not sense. It says he ravaged the lands first as he was heading North to Rivendell. Secondly we know it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon. Do you really think that Sauron was taking 3 years wiping out small groups of Elves and men, whilst ignoring his biggest threat in the area?

This is the same Elrond whose forces he could have destroyed earlier. Not only that Elrond is not even bearing a Ring of Power and Sauron has the One. Also we know that Sauron could have destroyed Rivendell in the 3rd Age as well. So how is it that with the Ring, being there in person himself, with his armies he can't do it now, against a force we are told not so long ago he would have overwhelmed?

The difference is that Elrond was fighting in open battle. Rivendell was a defensible place and Elrond could call such things as the River to his assistance. We know Sauron would have taken Rivendell eventually, but you seem to think it would have happened at the drop of the hat. Even with the One Ring he could never take Minas Tirith. Anarion not only halted his invasion, but managed to drive him back. Taking Rivendell is something that would require a lot more time that you are implying. Sauron obviously got impatient with the siege and tried to take Lindon immediately.

And they got routed by Sauron. If not for the Elves and Dwarves that attacked them from behind Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed".
Once more open battle is not the same as defending a strong hold out, which you can enchant to help you in the fight.

My point is that Sauron

Invades Eriador, to take the Rings
Fights off Elrond and Celeborn until he sacks Eregion "he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough BOTH to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion." [p. 249]
Chases Elrond and his forces which he could have destroyed had not Elves and Dwarves from Khazad-dûm and Lórinand saved him. "He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear" [p. 250]
Leaves Elrond and chases his saviours to the mines of Moria. "turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back"
Heads north, not to lay a siege on Rivendell, but because most of Eriador is to the north which is where he has to go if he plans on gaining the mastery of it. No clear statement is made that he went North to lay a siege on Gondor, other then that he laid siege to it in order to go west and prevent an attack from his rear. Otherwise it is quite clear that when Sauron went to invade Eriador he, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [p. 249]
He gathers his forces together since he really wants the Rings and leaves a strong force behind to prevent an attack from the rear.
They march west continuing their assault on Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.
They are routed when the Númenóreans arrive and his force at Imladris is trapped between Elrond and Gil-galad's forces and destroyed.
Sauron barely makes it out.
I have already explained why your view does not make sense. You have Sauron spending years fighting small groups of Elves, whilst he ignored his biggest threat.

You have Sauron happily weaken his forces and leave a large part of his army behind, instead of trying to take Rivendell first.

I never said physical engagement alone indicates one's power. You're trying to act like I'm comparing apples and oranges. You made a point that Glorfindel took out a Balrog because he is a strong Elf. I said that there are also other great Elves who could fight Maia and win, as in the case of Gil-galad, and Ecthelion. You clearly say, "Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer" and I tell you that others have fought Maia as well and won. But when I say this you claim I'm trying to say physical fighting is the only indicator of power. Not so, I'm saying that Glorfindel is not the only Elf who is a Balrog slayer and that Gil-galad took out the greatest of Melkor's servants. The point is how did Gil-galad take out the Balrog, through the power of his mind, spells? He used the tools of war and engaged in physical combat with it and he was not the only Elf to engage a Maia and win this way. That is my point, not that physical strength is the only indicator of power. That, it seems, you pulled out of thin air.
Where is it implied that Gil-galad was greater than Glorfindel at the fall of Gondolin? Gil-galad fought Sauron with the help of Elendil.

Only two three elves have ever been known to have killed a Maiar and in the case of Gil-galad it seems like Elendil got the final blow. All three died. Once more Gil-galad did not fight alone, but had the help of the equally powerful and mighty King of Arnor and Gondor.

When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one. Glorfindel would have had to use both to win. However, the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return.

Where you and I differ in this is that you claim as a result he is the most powerful Elf in M-E at this point. I believe Galadriel is the superior by any standard, and that there are possibly others as well. Btw, just because other Elves did NOT GET to kill a Blarog or some Maia does not mean they couldn't. Please keep that in mind as you give Glorfindel the title, Balrog slayer.
Other elves have tried and failed including Feanor and Fingon amongst others. You believe Galadriel is superior, but you don't really back it up. Glorfindel had the power near Olorin, which is much superior to Galadariel and any other elf in Middle Earth.

You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves, has his powers significantly increased and is now almost an equal to Olorin. Not Gandalf the Grey, but Olorin in Aman.

It appears to me you are trying to bring various excuses up to bolster your arguments. Sauron was also beaten in tandem by Luthien and Huan earlier in the first Age, and it is you I believe, who believes Luthien to be the most powerful of all the Elves. So we have Luthien + Huan [The Lay of Leithian; 2726-89] beat Sauron, and Gil-galad + Elendil beat a bolstered Sauron with the One Ring. Why are you trying to belittle Gild-galad's efforts? Sure Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man, but Huan is no cupcake either
Luthien did a little more than just beat Sauron. She put the whole of Hell to sleep. She had the power to put Morgoth, the Balrogs, the orcs, the Maiar, the dragons etc all to sleep. It's you who are trying to downplay the help that Elendil gave. Elendil was also the last to fall in the duel.

3 powerful Elves got the opportunity to do so. Again, I want to make it clear, that unlike you, I do not believe that because some other powerful Elf did not get the opportunity does not mean they could not. One of the most incredible things to me was how Fëanor was able to fight against MULTIPLE Balrogs and was only stopped when Gothmog knocked him senseless. He fought hard and long in that affair, fearing not his enemies.
Feanor was not alone and there were only ever around 5 Balrogs ever. Other elves had the opportunity, but none of them are ever recorded as having the ability to defeat a Maiar.

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds" [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125] Though he did not win, and died of his wounds after his sons saved him, he and he alone " was made the mightiest... of all the Children of Ilúvatar" [ch. 11, p. 112]
Those are from an early text and things have been rewritten. There is equal evidence that Fingolfin was stronger and had the greater valour, whilst Luthien had unmatched power since she was able to put ALL the Balrogs and Morgoth to sleep.

I said that? I do not recall. If I did I was surely mistaken because I know I do not think that because someone beats another that it necessarily means they are more powerful. Many get their day in the Sun. Éowyn & Merry defeated the Witch-king for instance.
Exactly.

Possible. She is compared in ways to Manwë and with Melian, but I'm of the opinion that even in her youth she was trained to fight, did fight, and was extremely skilled at it. I think, personally, should could have fought with Gil-galad in a purely physical level [although one needs mental toughness in such endeavors] and won even though we are generally given the view that his was not necessarily her thing, which funnily enough also applies to Sauron.
This is your view, but it seems like you are overrating Galadriel. She was a match for the athletes of the Eldar, but she was not noted as being the strongest. Gil-galad is especially praised for his martial skills.

No it doesn't. Galadriel was. You even mentioned that of the Elves who remained in the 3rd Age from the 2nd [which included Glorfindel because he clearly remained] she was the most powerful.

"she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370]

Glorfindel obviously did not remain, because he died and had to return. It's an attempt to twist what Tolkien wrote. All through out LOTR Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf.

I disagree, that is, "added with the all the other bits" concerning Galadriel. He is powerful, do not get me wrong, but I think there are still others who are like that who "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power" FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 1 p. 269]
Yes and Glorfindel is said to be the strongest of them. Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates and it is Glorfindel that is comparable to Olorin in power.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but clearly there may be captains who have mightier officers in their train. Take for instance Glorfindel and Elrond. Was not Elrond in command of forces that included Glorfindel, sent by Gil-galad to aid Celebrimbor? Don't you think the latter is mightier than the former?

No I don't think Elrond had the greater power, but he did have the greater rank. I never said it proved that Glorfindel was the most powerful, but it was an indicator. Tolkien himself pretty much confirms Glorfindel was the most powerful elf in Rivendell.

Yes he did. He came back around 1200 of the 2nd Age probably and remained in the 3rd Age. In fact the portion in which Galadriel is said to be the mightiest says "all the Elves" not just of the Eldar who came from Aman.
Yes, because most of the elves are dead and how can he have 'remained' if he died and returned? It's not logically possible to remain if you die and go back to Aman.

[Belegorn]

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."

Nothing here says he was an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.

Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.

The difference

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?

it would have been one of the last if not the very last place to fall

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.

Except you ignore that his first goal was to gain the mastery of Eriador.

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".

You don't just leave a large force undefended at your back.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

says he ravaged the lands first as he was heading North to Rivendell

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?

whilst ignoring his biggest threat in the area

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]

it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.

you seem to think it would have happened at the drop of the hat.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.

Sauron obviously got impatient with the siege and tried to take Lindon immediately.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]

open battle is not the same as defending a strong hold out

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?

You have Sauron spending years fighting small groups of Elves, whilst he ignored his biggest threat

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

Where is it implied that Gil-galad was greater than Glorfindel at the fall of Gondolin?

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.

When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?

the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?

You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.

Other elves have tried and failed including Feanor and Fingon amongst others.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]

It's you who are trying to downplay the help that Elendil gave.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Luthien did a little more than just beat Sauron.

She sure did.

Feanor was not alone and there were only ever around 5 Balrogs ever.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.

Those are from an early text and things have been rewritten.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

Luthien had unmatched power since she was able to put ALL the Balrogs and Morgoth to sleep

Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.

Exactly.

Surely. Then, now, show me where I said defeating someone means you are of equal power. Thanks.

Glorfindel obviously did not remain

So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.

he died and had to return

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?

All through out LOTR Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.

Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates

No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.

but he did have the greater rank

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank. :)

Yes, because most of the elves are dead and how can he have 'remained' if he died and returned?

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.

It's not logically possible to remain if you die and go back to Aman.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.

[cellurdur]

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."
Please point to me where he is called an Elf? I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves. Look at the quotes you are providing. Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are. Anymore than it would be correct to say that Luthien was now a WOMAN in the sense she was a female of the Race of Men. I have provided quotes several times here showing that Elrond was never called an elf so I am going to leave it there. Choose to ignore them if you wish.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.
He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

No it does not, because Elrond is given similar description. Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves. Abandoning your elvish rights as Tolkien says did not make Luthien anything other than an Elf. The Half-Elven would remain Half-elves no matter what their fate was.

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.
You are ignoring what Tolkien. Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal. Luthien was a mortal Elf, Tuor an immortal man and Elrond and immortal Half-elf.

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?
Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress? Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.
Does not matter we are told that it would be one if not the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there, but you don't seem to be keen on actually going by what Tolkien tells us.

'Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes at present until all else is conquered.'

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".
Yes and where they wanted to go was Rivendell. It does not take 3 years to ravage a small group of Elves. You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

A better rule is never leave an army at your back. The text implies that Sauron was besieging Rivendell from the amount of time we know he spent in Eriador.

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?
How do you gain the mastery of an area without defeating your enemies. How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]
It's just common sense. You think the small bands of men he was facing were a greater threat than Elrond? Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.
The Lhun is the borders of Lindon, Sauron was invading when the Numenoreans drove him back.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.
So you do think Sauron took 3 years clearing up small groups of men? You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]
You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell? Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?
His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind. He was not happy to leave enemies at his back, but attempted to take Moria. He could not get in and only then did he move on. You now want Sauron to abandon the tactics he employed prior and suddenly leave Rivendell unmolested. Ultimately not taking Rivendell almost cost him his life. It was being caught in the pincer that led to him narrowly escaping. Ironically history repeated itself with the Witch King of Angmar. He too failed to take Rivendell and was caught between a hammer and an anvil.

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

I said in Eriador. No quote is needed unless you truly believe that groups of men and small bands of elves were a bigger threat than Elrond.

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.
Greatest does not mean more powerful. Tolkein makes many distinctions between the two.

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?
Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?
Yes Ecthelion would be boosted, but not to the same extent as Glorfindel, because Glorfindel's sacrifice played a vital part in Earendil' survival.

'More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape, and seek refuge in the Mouth of Sirion. Though he could not have known the importance of this ( and would have defended them had they been fugitives of any rank) this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.'-POME

Glorfindel unwillingly had played a vital part in saving ME and therefore was rewarded.

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.
Well if he was one of the stronger elves already close in power to the strongest and then had his powers GREATLY enhanced it's no wonder he becomes the strongest of the Elves alive.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]
Feanor was not jumped and had companions. He was dying of his wounds. Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective. Elendil was a highly capable man equal to the princes of the Noldor.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.
And as you said either was Feanor. In the end he was defeated and unable to kill them.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power. Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

In his latest works there is no doubt, who i the greatest of the Eldar.

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME

Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.[/QUOTE}
Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.
[QUOTE]
So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.
Twisting Tolkien's words to try and fit your meaning is not going to help. Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath. He died prior to it and only came later as an emissary to help in the wars against Sauron.

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?
You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age? Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.
Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel. As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

Even very late on Tolkien still had Glorfindel returning at in the 3rd Age after spending 'from the First Age, through to the Second Age to the end of the First millennium of the Third Age; before he returned to Middle Earth.'-POME


No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.
I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate, because the text obviously states that not even Glorfindel could do this, but it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

'and was one (the most powerful one it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell'-POME

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank. :)
It's a mixture of both and with Tolkien the two were usually entwined. More often than not the greatest captain is also the one with the highest rank. There are some exceptions like with Maeglin, but for the majority of the time it will be true like with Fingolfin, Fingon, Elendil, Aragorn etc

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.
This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.
AS I have said this was not the case at the time Tolkien wrote the other note. Nor have you mentioned anything about Glorfindel having power close to Olorin. Glorfindel was a special case alongide the Istari and was sent to battle Sauron.

He had an 'air of special power and sanctity' around him.

It's for this reason we can understand 'why Glorfindel seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'.

'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

[Ivriniel]

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?...<--snip-->...'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

Shelob was more beautiful than Arwen. Treebeard was more beautiful than Shelob, and Galadriel smelled of Dwarves, so that made her short. Maia can be smelled into Shelobs if Ungoliant did have a bottom to her bottomless greed. So, Shelob must have been more bottomless (therefore beautiful) than Arwen.

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

After reading 100, billion pages about Feanor being the 'every-thing-est', only today, some 30 years later, I go and find all this stuff about Galadriel now being Feanor's rival -- as the 'everything-est' but in different areas.

I highly don't recommend getting stuck on the '-estest' or '-ighty-est' or best-est-test-est- *screams* because now Arwen is the 'fairest' but I thought it was Luthien. Then I saw Galadriel was that--so I got so confused, that I decided that Shelob was the fairest. It's not fair, really, that spiders should be so discriminated against. I'm sure Shelob would rank fairly high in the arachnid world's equivalent of 'Miss Universe'

*screams*

[Belegorn]

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?

It is said that he is an Elf, or of the Eldar.

"Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind" [RotK, App. A]

"Elrond chose to be among the Elves." [Letter #153]

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves.

This is the quote you gave:

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

First of all, Arwen never chose to be an Elf, which makes your quote irrelevant. Secondly, the quote you gave about Arwen, who never chose to be an Elf, is not about Elrond NOT BEING an Elf. Try again please.

Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Again, they were both Half-elven due to their descent, ""in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] However, since they were given a choice to choose their doom, that of Men or of Elves, Elrond chose that of Elven-kind and Elros that of Man-kind. Here's an interesting passage to that effect about the effect the choice had on the Half-elven, at least in the case of Elros:

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the 'seeking else-whither,' as the Eldar called it, the 'weariness' or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

In effect, Elros became a Man, and in like manner Elrond an Elf. Even still they were Half-elven due to their ancestry, they came from both Men and Elves, but they were given the choice to become either Man or Elf, and both chose one of these Dooms or Fates.

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Although you are quoting texts from the Hobbit that are written before LotR was conceived, if you want to be fair, Elrond is given various qualities in that quote, even of Dwarves and of Summer.

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." [The Hobbit, ch. 3, p. 51]

In the History of the Hobbit, by John Ratliff it is said,

"The reference only two chapters before to Beren and Lúthien’s activities of less than a century ago – a mere nothing in the elvish scheme of things – and the very presence of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside ‘to see the elves’ dance and sing) and seems not to have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long-lived at this point, argues against a long gap in time between Gondolin’s fall and Mr. Baggins’ adventure... By that scheme, Mr. Baggins’ unexpected party would have occurred no more than 14 years after the fall of Thangorodrim, which is clearly exceedingly improbable. These difficulties probably led to Tolkien’s deletion of the references to Beren and Lúthien’s adventure, which together with Elrond’s undefined status and nature enable Gondolin and its ruin to recede into the distant, legendary past." [ch. 3 Rivendell]

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are.

I have no idea what this has to do with the quoted portion of my text you responded to. I never even made mention of anyone changing their destiny after death.

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

He remained Half-elven by ancestry, but he became an Elf when he chose his Doom or Fate, just as Elros became a Man after he chose his Fate.

Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves.

Elrond is said to be an Elf.

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal.

Half-elven by ancestry, but a Man.

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress?

No, you're saying I am, nothing new there.

Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Like Prato in 1512? What mean you?

Does not matter

Yes it does, so I repeat, "Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien."

the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there

Where? Quotes please. It is said, "and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power too, of another kind, in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege" [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 1, p. 269] There is no mention of Rivendell standing last due to its power.

You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

Sauron was marching his way across Eriador to "take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings" [UT, part ll, ch. 4] Though he "attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" as he made his way from the south of Eriador, his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon" which was basically what he was on his way to doing while clearing a path and "ravaging as he went".

A better rule is never leave an army at your back.

Which is why he left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] He was not going to sit there and focus all his energies on a siege of Rivendell when "his immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] The siege was not laid to overrun Rivendell. So, I'm not saying he did not leave a siege but rather he left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." You're saying he left it to overrun Rivendell, I'm saying he left it "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear."

Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

Because their immediate and main purpose was to take out Sauron, who was there.

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon

Which is not the same as "it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon". Fighting on the borders of Lindon is not invading Lindon. Again I ask you where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon. Sauron, "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Lindon was across the river. He did not invade Lindon.

You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

It is said, "in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." This even with a weakened force that Sauron brought to get the Rings. That was his immediate purpose, and the reason he left another force besieging Rivendell was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take over Rivendell. Show me where it says the purpose of the siege was otherwise.

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take Rivendell.

Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] since "his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind.

To take the Rings.

Greatest does not mean more powerful.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

I have no idea where you are going with this. You're bringing all this other stuff up when all I said was that Glorfindel was not the only Elf to slay a Maia. You don't need to defend so hard that he was a powerful Elf. I never denied he was. All I said was, "I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this." You're going on Glorfindel being the most powerful because of a text that says he "was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandlad had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer." [POM-E, ch. 8] This indicates uncertainty through the use of "it would seem". I'm of the opinion that all this means is that even though Glorfindel is reborn there were still others of comparable power who were not reborn, so far as we know, who were sent out with him and it does not definitely mean he was the most powerful.

Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

How was it a stalemate when he got killed and Gothmog beat him? Do you know what stalemate means? Gothmog and the other Balrog won hence no stalemate. He was alone, they jumped him, Gothmog crushed his skull and they partied on his corpse.

"Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective.

It most certainly does as it implies he was not a Man to be messed with, and if he was it was to your detriment.

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power.


Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

Luthien is the greatest due to her deeds with Beren and all the descendants of Luthien, whose line shall never fail as Legolas says, & "Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112]

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME

This being a note appended to, "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor" [POM-E, The Shibboleth of Feanor] in reference to Fëanor/Galadriel.

[Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

Beren took a Silmaril from Morgoth, not Luthien, "he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril." [Sil., ch. 19, p. 219]

Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath.

The quote was not about those who remained from the War of Wrath. In fact the quote comes several pages after we begin with, "Thus began the third Age of the World" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 365] Glorfindel was one of the Elves who remained in M-E, and those who remained in M-E either were born there, or came from Aman as Galadriel and Glorfindel did [twice].

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age?

You do realize that not only myself, but you, are taking the texts that have Glorfindel coming early in the 2nd Age? You're backed into a corner. Please don't squirm, work what we came to the party with. Let's be open and honest, you are consistently bringing up how Glorfindel played a huge part in the battle with Sauron in the 2nd Age where he came to aid Elrond. Or do you really want to drop all that to switch it all up and now only work with "up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age"? It's up to you buddy.

Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

Show me that the quote referred to Elves who remained after the War of Wrath exclusively.

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel.

To Frodo who had met Glorfindel, correct? Also an audience only familiar with about 3 Elves by name in LotR until that point.

As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

So you're going to switch from his heroics and helping Elrond in the 2nd Age to he only arrived in the 3rd? Really? You're trying to confuse me more with your nonsense? In POM-E we have C.T. say,

"The second essay, Glorfindel II, is a text of five manuscript pages which undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval; but a slip of paper on which my father hastily set down some thoughts on the matter presumably came between them, since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf, 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.' At the end of this note he wrote the words 'Numenorean ship', presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea."

I believe you said in one of your posts, I'm not sure where I saw it, that you actually subscribe to this view, that he arrived in the 2nd Age to aid Elrond. Now you're switching it up.

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate,

That is, however, what you said.

"Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates"

it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

I'd say it's Glorfindel used because he is the Elf Frodo is familiar with, with whom his experience associates a great Elf to this point.

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

You're flip-flopping.

[Ivriniel]

*screams*

[Belegorn]

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

The superlatives are certainly there and made use of.

[Ivriniel]

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is? I've read the stuff you've posted, and much of it makes sense.

But, some of it is Lobelia-Sackville-Bagginses's Lotho-lorien-dorenan-ish tra la la lally Goldberry cooks Lembas, but Lego-gimli sailed East over sea...... :)

I'm pretty sure you're both on the same, basic page, that no-one disputes. That is, that whether you call the Peredhil Elves or Men or Meno-Level-Elves-o-Rama, Mandos catches 'em all when they get downed. And what seems to happen to the Peredhil (is that) their Choice allows their Spirit to be partitioned to either Fate of the Eldar or the Followers. That Mandos...thing....had very big halls and some folk turned left at the Junction that read "Firstborn" and others had to stand in the other immigration queue that read "The Followers--Stand here and wait to be called at the End of Time"

What makes an "Elf" an "Elf" and a "Man" a "Man"? When the genomes are all mixed up? The Half Elf is both-and-neither, I've always said. The body of Arwen, bearing Celebrian's parenthood, has more Elf than Man. I'm sure she looked very Elf-y :) but I'm sure she still might have grown a beard because she had some human blood.

Wait, I mean, that her children were Half Orcs if she married Shelob's Ungoliantified Unlight, web, thing, whatsit, that Morgoth was a bit weirded out about when The Silmarils ate Morgoth's big toe....:)

[cellurdur]

I began to reply Belegorn, but there is no real point, because you keep ignoring what' in the text. Elrond is called the Half-Elven so many times, but you refuse to accept it. There is no point continuing on this matter with you.

[Morthoron]

This is what I got out of the last debate:

Daffy Duck: Let's run through that again.

Bugs Bunny: Okay.

Bugs Bunny: [in a flat tone] Wouldja like to shoot me now or wait till you get home?

Daffy Duck: [flat tone] Shoot him now, shoot him now.

Bugs Bunny: [flat tone] You keep outta this. He doesn't hafta shoot you now.

Daffy Duck: [with sudden passion] Ha! That's it! Hold it right there!

Daffy Duck: [to audience] Pronoun trouble.

Daffy Duck: [to Bugs] It's not: "He doesn't have to shoot *you* now." It's: "He doesn't have to shoot *me* now." Well, I say he does have to shoot me now!

Daffy Duck: [to Elmer Fudd] So shoot me now!

[Elmer shoots him]

When, in actuality, if we lay aside all the pedantic semantics and hypothetical hurdles, we should follow this line of reasoning:

- So, logically--
- If she weighs the same as a duck...
- she's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- A witch!

Therefore, using this means of deduction in Middle-earth logic, I propose Elrond is made of wood, ergo he is an Ent.

Oh, don't thank me, I am always happy to assist in making Middle-earth meaningful.

[cellurdur]

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is? I've read the stuff you've posted, and much of it makes sense.

But, some of it is Lobelia-Sackville-Bagginses's Lotho-lorien-dorenan-ish tra la la lally Goldberry cooks Lembas, but Lego-gimli sailed East over sea...... :)

I'm pretty sure you're both on the same, basic page, that no-one disputes. That is, that whether you call the Peredhil Elves or Men or Meno-Level-Elves-o-Rama, Mandos catches 'em all when they get downed. And what seems to happen to the Peredhil (is that) their Choice allows their Spirit to be partitioned to either Fate of the Eldar or the Followers. That Mandos...thing....had very big halls and some folk turned left at the Junction that read "Firstborn" and others had to stand in the other immigration queue that read "The Followers--Stand here and wait to be called at the End of Time"

What makes an "Elf" an "Elf" and a "Man" a "Man"? When the genomes are all mixed up? The Half Elf is both-and-neither, I've always said. The body of Arwen, bearing Celebrian's parenthood, has more Elf than Man. I'm sure she looked very Elf-y :) but I'm sure she still might have grown a beard because she had some human blood.

Wait, I mean, that her children were Half Orcs if she married Shelob's Ungoliantified Unlight, web, thing, whatsit, that Morgoth was a bit weirded out about when The Silmarils ate Morgoth's big toe....:)
Belegorn will have to answer for himself why he thinks the matter is important.

As for it's not just a question of semantics to decide whether Elrond or Galadriel are more powerful. It's something, which runs through Tolkien's entire work. The Half-elven are neither elves nor men, but in reality a mixture of both. The mixed heritage they have leaves them with qualities unique to them and them alone.

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.
The Half-elven even as diluted as Aragorn have the ability to use 'magic' men do not.
At the same time even as Elvish Half-Elven as the Sons of Elrond are afraid of the shades of men, which Legolas is not.
The Half-elven even in the case of Elwing( who is 3/4 Elf/Maiar) grow up and have children much quicker.

There is a very real difference uniqueness to the Half-Elven, whether mortal or immortal which does not fit either Men or Elves.

This is before we get into how Tolkien always keeps the Elves separate from the Half-Elven in terms of language.

[Morthoron]

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.

Please provide a direct quote from Tolkien. Which Half-elf grew a beard in the third age of their lives, or, better yet, which Half-elf even reached the third stage of life like Cirdan? Did Tolkien ever talk about Half-elven hairiness?

The Half-elven even as diluted as Aragorn have the ability to use 'magic' men do not.

Aragorn possessed healing ability, not "magic" ability. This has to do with what Ioreth said: "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." We discussed this in another thread wherein there is a direct tie to historical English (and French) kings and queens who were believed to have healing ability based on their god-given right to the throne.

There is no basis to say that "Half-elven" blood is a prerequisite for healing, nor was it stated that Aragorn could perform magic. Again, on the Paths of the Dead Aragorn demanding the spirits to fulfill their vow has more to do with Aragorn being the rightful king and wielding the appropriate sword of Isildur. For instance, Elrond, even though he was Half-elven, could not wield Narsil/Anduril and command the dead.

At the same time even as Elvish Half-Elven as the Sons of Elrond are afraid of the shades of men, which Legolas is not.

Again, please provide a direct quote that this is the case. The words never came out of Elrond's son's mouths, nor did Tolkien imply it. Legolas' fearlessness is contrasted to Gimli's fear. There is no mention of Elrohir or Elladan in that sequence.

The Half-elven even in the case of Elwing( who is 3/4 Elf/Maiar) grow up and have children much quicker.

Quicker than whom? Are there Half-elven maturation charts you wish to share?

There is a very real difference uniqueness to the Half-Elven, whether mortal or immortal which does not fit either Men or Elves.

This is before we get into how Tolkien always keeps the Elves separate from the Half-Elven in terms of language.

Not on the mortal side. Elros is described as Half-elven, but his descendants are not because they do not have the choice. Only those who must make the choice between Elf and Man are given that title. Just like Aragorn and Arwen's children would never be called Half-elven because Arwen had already renounced her elvishness.

Silly semantics aside, the term "Half-elf" is really is more a family title or honorific than a genomic designation, particularly once a choice as to which race is made: you are that race irrevocably; hence Eärendil chose to be an Elf (at the behest of Elwing, who also made the choice to be Elvish and are thereafter referred to as such), Elros was a mortal man, and Arwen was a mortal woman.

[cellurdur]

Please provide a direct quote from Tolkien. Which Half-elf grew a beard in the third age of their lives, or, better yet, which Half-elf even reached the third stage of life like Cirdan? Did Tolkien ever talk about Half-elven hairiness?

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.



Aragorn possessed healing ability, not "magic" ability. This has to do with what Ioreth said: "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." We discussed this in another thread wherein there is a direct tie to historical English (and French) kings and queens who were believed to have healing ability based on their god-given right to the throne.

There is no basis to say that "Half-elven" blood is a prerequisite for healing, nor was it stated that Aragorn could perform magic. Again, on the Paths of the Dead Aragorn demanding the spirits to fulfill their vow has more to do with Aragorn being the rightful king and wielding the appropriate sword of Isildur. For instance, Elrond, even though he was Half-elven, could not wield Narsil/Anduril and command the dead.
I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.

Again, please provide a direct quote that this is the case. The words never came out of Elrond's son's mouths, nor did Tolkien imply it. Legolas' fearlessness is contrasted to Gimli's fear. There is no mention of Elrohir or Elladan in that sequence.
Actually there is. Only Legolas remained without fear out of the company.

The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.-LOTR

Legolas alone amongst the company had no fear, because he was a pure elf.

Quicker than whom? Are there Half-elven maturation charts you wish to share?
Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All

Not on the mortal side. Elros is described as Half-elven, but his descendants are not because they do not have the choice. Only those who must make the choice between Elf and Man are given that title. Just like Aragorn and Arwen's children would never be called Half-elven because Arwen had already renounced her elvishness.
Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.

Silly semantics aside, the term "Half-elf" is really is more a family title or honorific than a genomic designation, particularly once a choice as to which race is made: you are that race irrevocably; hence Eärendil chose to be an Elf (at the behest of Elwing, who also made the choice to be Elvish and are thereafter referred to as such), Elros was a mortal man, and Arwen was a mortal woman.
Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.

Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking elsewhither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world.

Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.

[Morthoron]

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.

This is not specific to the Half-elven, and could include any number of Numenoreans related, however indirectly, to Elros (as it was to heirs of Dol-Amroth). You made this statement:

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.

Where is that statement? It is not in the quote you provided, therefore, you made it up.

I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.

Meh, I'll give you that one. Good research. However, Tolkien equivocates and uses such words as "might" be regarded as magical, and "in theory" reported by unscientific hobbits. Tolkien is equally ambiguous regarding "magical" properties supposedly unattainable in Men. For instance, he also states the Mouth of Sauron learned "great sorcery" under the tutelage of Sauron. There is no equivocation from Tolkien that he was unable to perform the Dark Arts; in fact, to say MoS learned "great sorcery" clearly shows he wasn't playing at parlor tricks.

Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All

Even you use the word "usually". There are only generalizations that cannot be applied across the board, particularly in times of terrific war and strife when customs bend to reality. Earendil and Elwing lived in a time of great upheaval, and they were both 29 when Elros and Elrond were born -- I don't see that as being an immature age, do you? And the Elvish mother Idril didn't bicker about customs, did she? Besides, mortals can and have given it a go regarding childbirth as soon as puberty hits at 11 or 12. :eek:

Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.

Not true? Ummm...sorry, we must be reading a different book. Elros' descendants were not Half-elven, and neither were Aragorn's. The direct line of Earendil and Elwing were given the choice (Given that Luthien made a choice of mortality, it seems likely that Dior might also have that gift, but he died young), and once a choice was made, like in Arwen's case, the offspring are no longer Half-elven, but mortal and unable to make a choice. Obviously, the offspring of Imrazor and Mithrellas were mortal without benefit of the Half-elven choice, just as Elros offspring were mortal and not "Half-elven". Again, the term is titular to the line of Earendil until a choice of mortality is made.

Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.

Did they remain the same? I would suggest they did not remain the same, or at least Elros didn't. Elros could no longer produce Half-elven children, while Elrond could. Obviously, Eru the Galactic Geneticist fiddled with their chromosomes. Earendil and Elwing chose to be Elves, per Tolkien, just as Elrond did.

Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.

Is Elrond immortal (having lived over 6500 years)? Check. Does he possess an Elven Ring? Check. Is he the master over all the Elves (including Glorfindel) at Rivendell? Check. Can he command the waters at the Ford of Bruinen? Check. Does he leave for the Undying Lands at the end of the story? Check. Is he, per Tolkien, parted from his daughter Arwen, who chose to be mortal, until the end of time? Check.

If it quacks like a duck, it is not a semantic piece of wood. And please don't refer to The Hobbit for canonical references.

[Belegorn]

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is?

There are several things.

(1) Is Elrond, or any of the Peredhel, Elves or not due to their title "Half-elven".

(2) Is Glorfindel the strongest Elf in M-E, especially since he is reborn.

(3) Did Sauron make a serious attempt to invade Rivendell.

[Belegorn]

because you keep ignoring what' in the text.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure of course. :) For example you claim I ignore the text, but you told me, "I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves." as it relates to the quote below.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

This piece of text, as I told you, is irrelevant. For one I never claimed Arwen [and I know of this because she never chose to become an Elf] was an Elf and for another this text does not even make your case that Elrond is not an Elf.

Elrond is called the Half-Elven so many times, but you refuse to accept it.

I have not denied that he was called Half-elven, "they were both Half-elven due to their descent", and "Even still they were Half-elven due to their ancestry" for instance. What I do not except is that because they are Half-elven, that in their choice to choose a Doom they did not become either Elf or Man. I showed you a text that showed how after Elros made his choice he became a Man.

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

[Mithalwen]

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

[Ivriniel]

There are several things.

(1) Is Elrond, or any of the Peredhel, Elves or not due to their title "Half-elven".

(2) Is Glorfindel the strongest Elf in M-E, especially since he is reborn.

(3) Did Sauron make a serious attempt to invade Rivendell.

I'm gunna add some info. Now, remember bois/guyz/woman/glaz - it's really all just tralla Lalla Feanor unfriended Galad-goliant because Unlight is Light with an 'un' and Tolkien loved Un-lordifying-lally lembo lembas and doin' funny things with words.....he was a word smith, unlike the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, who were just naughty Elves workin' with the resident bad boi, Annatar, and Tolkien loved 'un' doing words with an 'un' :)

Okay:

to 1:

1. Aren't they just the Pereldar or Peredhil? Elf blended with Man - and so, I've always said, a synergy race "both and neither", and so, at times beyond either, whilst also being less than either - oh my god, I'm about to break into song! Would we have called Luthien a 'man'? Coz she died a mortal life? Um--if she had a beard, I'd have thought about it. Not sure she came back with one when those interfering busy bodies, the Valar, shunted her and Beren back to life. She, no doubt, still looked "elfy" (well actually, she was part Maia, yeah :) ), but Mandos gave her another Passport, for the Edain Immigration cue, so that she could hang out with Beren in the Halls til the end of days? This all says to me that there were 'rules' about the Spirit and where it went, that, somehow, were not *intrinsically* linked to genes/body/look. But to something 'else' and what that 'else' actually is, I have no *bleep* idea. But--does that make Luthien a 'Man'? Hmm, not sure we have a best-fit word for what happened to her. I think I'd still call her 'of Elvenkind'

2. About Glorfindel the reborn, who slew a Balrog (shunting aside the reincarnation stuff--I did read the materials, and know a little about the Glorfindel debate. Reborn, boated out of Numenor and all that was interesting to read). Is he uber-Elrond and uber-Galadriel, assuming he was the 'same' being?

I don't think being reborn would, necessarily, imply he is the greatest. I'm not sure of his power quotient, whatever that means, but he wasn't afraid of the nine, and he didn't get an Elven Ring. Does that mean he was lesser in the stature of 'power' or more that he was just less of a noble line? Who knows.

Unfortunately, though, Tolkien had a terrible habbit, um I mean hobbit, woops, habit of (as I said in jest), of 'lordifying bestest, then unbesting the lord, who was then unlordified and undefeatedly bestified by the new VFF, BFF or Rugby League sports hero, who was the Lorewisest but dumbest. Which all means: I have a headache here. *rubs temples* *screams*

But, if I had to pin one of the "greatest-est-esty-estest-great-not-un-grate, woops ingrate, no, I mean, un-great-ified, I'd go for Feanor, and Galadriel, first [who was unfriends forever with Feanor :) because they invented Facebook]. Then, Enerdhil that jeweller about the Elessar making (he was best-est at jewell smithery, assuming he ever lived), then Fingolfin, Beren, Luthien - wait, now I do have a headache.

3. On Three. I guess so. He pressed in to surround Imladris didn't he?

[cellurdur]

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

Dior getting a choice is wishful thinking on my part, but not without a little bit to be hopeful for. Dior was immersed in the Elvish lifestyle was married to an Elf and ruled over an Elvish kingdom. He also choice to marry an Elf before he knew the consequences of his actions. It seems very harsh to me that the Valar would not give him a choice, but nothing in the text suggest they did.

Perhaps that's a better analogy, but your friend in question will always have some of the traits associated typically with Japanese ethnicity. Whatever, his or her nationality she will remain of mixed heritage.

[Ivriniel]

Forgot Celebrimbor. He was pretty lore-wise. Very Aule-ish he was....which brings me to some terms to breakdown 'power' and how Tolkien saw it.

When he described Feanor, he refers to Lore, stature, body-heath/athleticism, mind. (He missed personality. Feanor had a very unfortunate personality). When he describes Galadriel (materials about her are fresh in my mind, after recent review, so sorry if I'm being Galadriel-o-centric)--Tolkien refers to her as gifted, athletically and mentally, and as Feanor's equivalent in best-est-tra-la-la-lally-iests. But her assets were in other domains of mind, and so, *qualitatively* (not *quantitatively*) distinct.

Here then, is where it's very hard to say and respond to power questions.

[Ivriniel]

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

I've always thought this way about Dior, also.

Coz he was born after a resurrection. This all happened before the Choice of the Peredhil, and Luthien's exception was a Mandos decree-one-off, for her heroism and to acknowledge, I've always thought, great love of Beren and Luthien. I do love that story. :)

I forgot to add, in post prior "strength" "weapon-mastery" "emotional fortitude" omg, etc, I have a TOTAL headache

[Mithalwen]

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

[cellurdur]

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

On the last point I disagree with you with. Earendil and Elwing had a swift maturity too, it seems to be a trait of the Half-Elven. They age like Men, but once reaching maturity slow down to the rate of Elves up to their deaths. Half-Elves are also seem to be free from disease and other troubles of Men.

Tolkien still makes clear distinctions between the two such as his comments about Arwen or using similes to compare Elrond with Elves. So even when the Peredhil choose the race they wish to belong there is still that distinction between the two.

As for Dior he was without debate the first of the Peredhil. He himself announces this and Tolkien confirms it. I personally and this is just personal choice, don't buy the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. I don't think there were ever any other marriages between Elves and men than: Luthien and Beren, and Tuor with Idril. Consequently it's easier for me to accept that Dior and his sons were given a choice in the Halls of Mandos and the two branches of Peredhil were united in the children of Earendil and Elwing.

Just to illustrate the point look at the description about how fair Legolas is.

'cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. '

There is no need for a simile or a comparison. Now compare that with Elrond or his sons.

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord


'they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell’.

By rank, by heritage and by might, Elrond and his sons should be Elf Lords, but are not.

[Ivriniel]

As for Dior he was without debate the first of the Peredhil. He himself announces this and Tolkien confirms it.

Not quite. He also had quite a good splash of Maia blood. Luthien could shape change. It's not at all clear what powers he would have had.

We'll never know what would have happened to him, and how long he would have lived, were he ruler of Menegroth, indefinitely. Though, given Elwing's fate, I'm sure Tolkien could have weaved in another 'Mandos-exception' twist about Dior. Though, Mandos tended to do that only for particularly heroic, heroically-heroin-isation of the hero-est-est. Best. Est. Heroishly heroic.

My instincts warn that he would have died, a mortal life, without the heroism intervention. When you compare Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen, and that Eldar-ishness was lost easily, quickly and readily, rather than the converse. That is, even when one's blood ran in one's vein's three part elf and one part man--that was no guarantee. One way ticket stuff. Once you choose, even if you marry an Eldar (i.e. you meet someone after you choose). Too bad, off to Mandos you go.

I personally and this is just personal choice, don't buy the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas. I don't think there were ever any other marriages between Elves and men than: Luthien and Beren, and Tuor with Idril. Consequently it's easier for me to accept that Dior and his sons were given a choice in the Halls of Mandos and the two branches of Peredhil were united in the children of Earendil and Elwing.

I know all the dirt on her Silvan (as Mithrellas, i.e. lesser stature and....?) She was still Elvish (there are ways the Peredhil choice is caste where its association with the Line of Earendil is not imputed)-->so this Peredhil (was still a Half-Elf) died mortally. But, my only addendum is that we don't know what would have happened if Mithrellas snatched the kids, tossed them on a Straight-Road boat and trundled them off to Valinor (sorry, Eressea). It was my sense that this half-brood leaned towards mortality, having a domineering Numenorean dad who scared his gf off, but kept the kids....

[Mithalwen]

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

[cellurdur]

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Sharing fully in the fate of an Elf does not make you one and nor does sharing fully in the fate of Men. The example I used prior is the case of Luthien. Luthien forever remained an Elf, even though she was mortal.

Dior himself used the term and learnt both languages, because it is what he was.

'Dior their son it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's and his mother's the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredhil (halfelve); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.

[Morthoron]

On the last point I disagree with you with. Earendil and Elwing had a swift maturity too, it seems to be a trait of the Half-Elven. They age like Men, but once reaching maturity slow down to the rate of Elves up to their deaths. Half-Elves are also seem to be free from disease and other troubles of Men.

They were 29 years old when Elrond and Elros were born. That in no way indicates some kind of swift maturity, particularly when considering that in ancient eras girls bore children while in their early-to-mid teens. There is no indication that the Half-elven's maturity rate sped up and then slowed down, or that they died at all, unless you are referring to those who chose mortality like Elros and Arwen.

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord


'they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell’.

By rank, by heritage and by might, Elrond and his sons should be Elf Lords, but are not.

Elrond chose not to have a title that would indicate kingship or lordship, seemingly for political reasons. Although he could claim kingship of the Sindar through direct lineage to Elu Thingol, there was a large contingent of Noldor residing in Rivendell, and their kingship lay vacant since the death of Gil-Galad. Why exacerbate old wounds? Why refer to himself as a lord? He was Master of Rivendell and acknowledged leader of both Sindar and Noldor in that place.

Politically astute, really, in the same way Galadriel did not refer to herself as a queen either. Was she an Elvish Queen? By both lineage and power she could certainly make the claim (after all, her father Finarfin was still king of the Noldor in Valinor), and don't believe she hadn't considered it:

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

[Ivriniel]

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

This would place Dior as about fifty years of age, or thereabouts, with minimum-time assumptions. I'm not sure if Elwing was younger or older than Elured and Elurin. And I'm rusty on measures of quanties (years) between Elu's slaying, Dior's ascension and the sack of Mengroth. And assuming that Elwing was about 20-25 when she and Earendil left Beleriand on Vingilot. I have no real idea....really. Is your real idea, a 'really', or a 'really' or--did I mention 'really'? I'm not sure, really. As in--really--I'm not sure about much at all.....really....truly....

Meaning--a retrofitted un-mortal-ified Dior--(for the Dior in the alternative universe that actually lived), is getting long-shot ish.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Imrahil. Beardless. Over 20 generations later. In-text citations, LotR referring to this, (Legolas). Elf-y blood. Somewhere, don't you think. And obviously more than Elendil's line, recalling that by the time Elendil or one of his brood got the hots for an Imrahil distant ancestor, whoz-its, he wasn't very Elfy anymore. Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)? This is one of the reasons I favour the Imrazor/Mithrellas citation.

[Ivriniel]

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

:) "....like less than half of you half-[elves half] as much as you deserve..."

[cellurdur]

They were 29 years old when Elrond and Elros were born. That in no way indicates some kind of swift maturity, particularly when considering that in ancient eras girls bore children while in their early-to-mid teens. There is no indication that the Half-elven's maturity rate sped up and then slowed down, or that they died at all, unless you are referring to those who chose mortality like Elros and Arwen.
I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

Elrond chose not to have a title that would indicate kingship or lordship, seemingly for political reasons. Although he could claim kingship of the Sindar through direct lineage to Elu Thingol, there was a large contingent of Noldor residing in Rivendell, and their kingship lay vacant since the death of Gil-Galad. Why exacerbate old wounds? Why refer to himself as a lord? He was Master of Rivendell and acknowledged leader of both Sindar and Noldor in that place.
Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

Politically astute, really, in the same way Galadriel did not refer to herself as a queen either. Was she an Elvish Queen? By both lineage and power she could certainly make the claim (after all, her father Finarfin was still king of the Noldor in Valinor), and don't believe she hadn't considered it:

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"
Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".
This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

[Mithalwen]

When was Beren not a man?

[Galin]

In an early version [or versions, can't remember how many times Tolkien changed his mind here] of the Beren and Luthien tale, Beren was an Elf.

[Morthoron]

I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ;)), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.:D

[Mithalwen]

Oh I see, actually, Morth, Tolkien says in LaCE that Elves don't reach physical maturity until 50 and some not til twice that. He may have changed his ideas in different versions but if he didn't a 22 year old elf would be equivalent probably to a human child of eight or nine. Also I doubt Idril would have left Earendil had he not been properly grown up.

[cellurdur]

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ;)), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.
Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.
You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.
Yes she could have given herself the title of Queen of Lorien, but that was, because she and Celeborn did not consider Lorien their kingdom by right. Rather they considered themselves as guardians of the land after Amroth drowned.
If Galadriel had founded a land by herself she may have indeed called herself Queen.

Off topic, but Galadriel's decision to never crown herself speaks very well for her humility and reminds me of the Stewards of Gondor. Unlike the Stewards, I doubt there would be any resistance in such a great and might Lady as Galadriel claiming Queenship.


Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.:D
As for Aranel it appears it could just as easily mean 'King of Elves', which fits in very well with him being Thingol's heir the Eluchil and being the King of all the Sindar.

[Morthoron]

Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

What in god's name are you talking about? Earendil and Elwing were born in 503, and they married in 525 when they were each 22, but did not have children until they were 29. Often in ancient and medieval cultures, a boy and girl were married, but do not consummate the marriage until some years later. Where did you come up with 11? Are you being insanely literal again?

You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Where is that quote? Is it in Lord of the Rings? If not, I question the validity.

[cellurdur]

What in god's name are you talking about? Earendil and Elwing were born in 503, and they married in 525 when they were each 22, but did not have children until they were 29. Often in ancient and medieval cultures, a boy and girl were married, but do not consummate the marriage until some years later. Where did you come up with 11? Are you being insanely literal again?

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.



It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Where is that quote? Is it in Lord of the Rings? If not, I question the validity.
Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

[Mithalwen]

Morth, again Laws and customs of the Eldar make it clear that that kind of childhood arrangement is not possible for the elves, though they may choose each other as children but for elves although they do make vows the act of sexual union constitutes marriage. Again I say that elves were not physically mature until at least fifty and tended to marry soon after. So by this yardstick it is clear that Dior and Elwing and Earendil were on a mortal timetable marrying in young adulthood ( very young mortal women maybe capable of childbearing in early adolescence but it isn't a great idea for health reasons, also the average age of menarche has got progressively earlier) . I concede HoME wasn't. Published in Tolkien's lifetime but then neither was the Silmarillion and it seems more valid to use a coherent Tolkien essay on the subject than to extrapolate from medeaeval history. Lace indicates that men reach mortals reach maturity two to two and a half times quicker than elves.

[Morthoron]

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.

It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

Oh, I can follow along just fine, sir and/or madam, and if you care to be rude, believe me, we can play that game as well.

So, what you are holding desperately onto in such an inanely literal fashion is LACE, an unfinished document written in both A and B succession at different times and which was supposedly translated by the mortal Aelfwine? Is that it? Christopher Tolkien was quite succinct regarding the essay:

"It is clear in any case that is presented as the work, not of one of the Eldar, but of a man..."

If you accept the conceit, how then can you accept that the text is completely reliable -- unfinished and heavily modified as it was?

The Earendil story is among Tolkien's oldest tales, and one nearest to completion and dearest to Tolkien himself. Do you think he rectified his time line in lieu of LACE? Documentation does not show this to be the case. Therefore, your entire rant is based on incomplete data that more than likely would have been rewritten after Tolkien abandoned the Aelfwine character altogether. But it never came to that, ergo, your assumptions are just that, merely assumptions and not the Gospel according to Saint John Ronald Reuel.

[Galin]

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you. Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.


And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter ;)


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

[Galin]

Here's my fuller argument...

Morgoth's Ring provides 50 years, for some 100 years (as just noted), and while this has proved to be popular on the web, it's not the only idea Tolkien had in my opinion, nor even the latest idea he had. Other examples include:

'They' are the Númenóreans: 'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'):

Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70

This text is quite a bit later than Laws And Customs Among the Eldar (Morgoth's Ring), which generally dates to the late 1950s early 1960s.

Anyway these two texts appear [to me] to say that the Eldar grew at about the same rate as Men.

But even this is not the complete story, as there is another indication, from other texts published in Morgoth's Ring (still later 1950s however), that the Eldar, at least early in the history of Middle-earth and in Aman, matured much slower than 50 to 100 years -- and actually the notion seems to be that it took roughly 3,000 years for an Elf-child to become an adult! and possibly (based on a further text written at this time called Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) in Middle-earth (not in Aman) this rate dwindled*, meaning that it took less time to grow to be an adult in Middle-earth as time passed, suggesting Elven children reached maturity faster and faster until at least Finrod's conversation with Andreth.

This idea is wound up with possible drastic changes in the internal chronology, as well as the notion of 144 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year (not roughly 10 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year, as formerly).


It might be 'remotely' possible that all these ideas could be parts of the same idea, the notion being: a rate of growth that dwindled in Middle-earth as time passed, if the rate rather drastically altered in Middle-earth over time that is: thus 3,000 or so years very early on (and in Aman), but after time the Elves matured faster and faster, and at some point this rate reduced to 50 or 100 years, perhaps at the time of Finrod's conversation with Andreth* -- and even later, the Eldar ultimately grew at much the same rate as Men.

I think that's much less likely than Tolkien simply changing his mind however, as 3,000-ish to about the same rate as Men is quite the change internally! It was probably easier to keep track of chronology if Elves simply matured at the same rate as Men, but that's a total guess as to why Tolkien seems to have later headed that way.

_______________

*'This I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'That your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda is tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only Aman before he came there. For know it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change* [*the word change was an emendation to the typescript B (only); the manuscript has growth -- footnote by CJRT] of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.'

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (and see Author's note 7 on the Commentary)

[cellurdur]

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter ;)


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

[Morthoron]

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Cellurdur, you merely want to pick and choose the mortar for your literal brick wall, when Tolkien chronologies are not necessairly set in stone. Taking Sador's statement at face value, yes, mortal children DO age faster than Elves; however, as I said before, that could mean having children in one's teens and then being considered middle-aged by the time one hits 30, and then suffering old age and dying before 50, as is certainly a known fact in recorded history for large populations of people over thousands of years.

Again, Earendil and Elwing did not have children until 29, which would be certainly much older - perhaps ten to fifteen years older - than mortals of any time in real history up to the 19th or 20th century. Don't you find it all all odd that Earendil and Elwing did not have children until 7 years after their wedding? Do you think about that at all? Or do you not think about things that you don't want to think about?

You want to base everything on LACE which was heavily emended and incomplete, and most certainly would have to be rewritten again considering Tolkien completely abandoned the whole Aelfwine story line. Yet you also wish to completely ignore Galin's quote from Tolkien regarding Numenoreans, or the author's notes from the Vinyar Tengwar which are nearly 20 years more recent and trumps LACE.

What you need to do is to drop the magisterial tone and the condescension and realize your assumptions are not set in stone, and what you BELIEVE to be true is not necessarily canon, and that Tolkien cannot even be counted on to be wholly orthodox in his own canonicity.

[Ivriniel]

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

Cellurdur, Galin's materials quote and cite competing materials about the subject of aging. Yours resume a focus on Morgoth's Ring. You can't esteem or weight those as the primordial uber-duber est-est, best-est, ungoliantified beauty means that Morgoth's unlighted web was what he married Manwe, which made Varda look blue, not green (because Valar don't get jealous, but bothered) and so the Silmaril ate him, therefore, Elven children age like Shelob.

You're going to have to quote competing citations. That, as I read this, at this point, is your recourse for re-validating your argument, by quoting the competing ages of the various citations, and then see what various editors, (e.g. chris, daddy's son) have to say about what this means, and about what it means when the Silmaril eating Morgoth, when Galadriel and Feanor were unfriends forever.

At this point, I'm leaning with Galin's and Morthoron's interpretations as the most influential/authoritative on the point of the rate of aging elves. Galin is extremely thorough in how he accesses and comments on matters. There's a great deal of work in the effort to quote the actual prose from competing texts. There are actual quotations, which is a lot of extra work. Sometimes, shifting in a personal opinion means having to surrender to a point, with generosity, at those times it's time to enjoy a refresher course on a matter. It's not personal. :)

So, whilst you're saying unlight eats Valinor's return from Mandos's undecree of Fea-galadriel's friend-unfriending, to the extent I buy your argument, Morgoth's Ring has something to say about this. But, as Galin points out, popularity of an opinion sometimes does not guarantee authenticity of an opinion.

[Nerwen]

I don't think the age at which Earendil and Elwing married and had children tells us anything.

On the one hand, it doesn't have to mean they were maturing *slower* than garden-variety mortals- marriage customs, life expectancy and so forth should not be confused with the actual biological clock. Perhaps they'd just waited so as not to scandalise their Elvish relatives...

-On the other hand, it makes them "eleven" only if you assume that the version in "Laws and Customs" was what Tolkien had in mind when he was writing Earendil and Elwing's history (or, for that matter, Dior's). The question, then is- do we have any good reason to believe this is the case? (I'm not at all sure Sador's words do count as "corroboration", since he gives no specifics.)

EDIT: in case of misunderstanding, "eleven" refers to age and is not a typo for "elven"!

[Ivriniel]

I take your point....that's the other way to get at this. I like that style of analysis, which is about making an inference, from the way the story was told, in text, as a narrative.

I haven't had a chance to wade through the narratives we have (e.g. The Silmarillion, and how the actual story was told, and what that might mean. For hints about the rate Elf children age).

I can't recall, off the top of my head, in UT, or other materials, LotR, The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales what essays say in text about elf kids. This is unlike Aragorn, where, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, text specifically says several important things about Numenorean maturation.

Aragorn "...was new to manhood, early", i.e. about 20/21, at most, as was the way Numenorean kids could/did, though they live 'thrice the span' of other Men (though this, in Letters, even has been cited at 'twice' not 'thrice'). But *in text* it is stated, "thrice" many times. We also know Aragorn met Arwen when he was around 50ish in Lorien, where she got all swoon-y about him and starry eyed, and all like "oh, he's lordly-est of lordified, look at him and how hot he is".

Relevance of this? ....of the Line of Elros... and the supposition that early maturation does not imply shorter longevity. I'd never heard of anything different to that for Elfy folk.

Certainly, the half-elven do not appear to mature more slowly. Are there any in text stories about Elf kids, and how early they matured? I can't think of any. I'm going to return to The Silmarillion and have a look....

[Ivriniel]

There's another mode of analysis available about the rate of maturation of Elves. Beleriand's history in FA is relatively short, some 500 years, it would seem.

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?) Maeglin is born in 320. Gondolin falls 510. He was 190. Definitely fully mature.

Earendil and Elwing born 503, depart for Valinor 525. This one, in my reading is pretty influential (Elwing was 3 parts Elf, 1 part Man). They didn't get to Valinor until 542 - I didn't realise that journey took them so long :) Anyhooz, she was 22 by the time she was on a boat with her beloved.

Dior Born 470, weds Nimloth 497 (27).

I am annoyed that significant elfy births aren't so prominent, and with the notable absence of indications of their maturation, so, we have a lot more half-elfy ideas. I'm not sure this should be taken as a problem. Wombs. Gestations. Etc seem pretty similar as do developmental trajectories.

The elfy materials are somewhat less definitive, but do have some implications about maturation, in a "not greater than" statement. Aredhel, 104 years.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

------------------------------------

On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

[Galin]

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs. The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion. Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

As far as I'm aware this section of the Narn was written in the later 1950s, thus it would not be surprising if it seems to agree with Laws And Customs.

:shrug:

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.


Distinction: generally speaking I give precedent to texts or stories published by Tolkien himself. And with respect to posthumously published writings, I generally give latest date heavy weight.

But each scenario has its own considerations.


I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.


In my opinion there is nothing else in the fuller context to change the meaning of the citation I posted above. I didn't re-read the whole text again today, but as far as I recall the growth of Elves is here more of a sidenote with respect to the rest of the text.

It's a brief, late statement, but notable.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

Yet the consideration that [I]Laws And Customs is more extensive than something else in no way means a different idea cannot replace it, so not only do we still have both citations to unsimplify matters [not one text taken as a 'given' for example], but various opinions about how to weight posthumously published material.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

Are you using 144 Sun Years to equal 1 Valian Year? And even if you are, can we be certain Tolkien was not going to adjust any dates in the already existing annals, to help make certain new ideas work better?

And anyway the idea from Vinyar Tengwar is certainly later than the notion of 3,000 years -- which itself was written in the same general 'phase' as L&C.

I think things remain more complicated than before ;)

[Orphalesion]

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?)

Yes I dispute this; Aredhel was born in Valinor, long before Gondolin was founded and was a fully grown woman by the time of Feanor's rebellion.

Aside from that yes, it seems Elves did not mature that much slower than men in the chronologies (though 50 years still seems feasible). But then, the essay stuff Tolkien wrote often did not mesh with the actual stories.
I think he tried to give the Elves a slower maturation rate to explain why there were only four generations by the time of Feanor's rebellion and not six or seven or more.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Moreover, Idril also was born in Tirion; Turgon's wife died in the Helcaraxe and Turgon barely saved his daughter.

[Orphalesion]

Moreover, Idril also was born in Tirion; Turgon's wife died in the Helcaraxe and Turgon barely saved his daughter.

Exactly, and a lifespan of 190 years is more than enough for Maeglin to mature at a pace of 50 or even 100 years. He was a fully grown adult for some 90-140 years. Tragically short by Elven standards, but still longer than most humans even get to live. If he had not been fixated on Idril to an unhealthy degree Maeglin could have been a father or even grandfather by the time of his death. The Siege of Angband alone would have been enough for at least 3-4 generations to mature and reproduce.

[Ivriniel]

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

------------------------------------

On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

Cheers wch. The 'beard' comment goes to the other debate. Imrahil's lot didn't have 'em, I understand it, coz they were elf-y. About the competing idea that Elendil's bloodline influenced princes of Dol Amroth....

[Ivriniel]

Yes I dispute this; Aredhel was born in Valinor, long before Gondolin was founded and was a fully grown woman by the time of Feanor's rebellion....

Cheers Orhpalesion,

That makes my comment about Aredhel and her 100 years, and making an inference about rates of elfy maturation, like Entwive wombs grow corn, because Aredhel unValinored her Eolisation, when Maeglin vomited the Silmaril...up...again...backwards :)

It has been a very long time since I re-read the Silmarillion--probably 15 years, and I got all tra la la lally, Goldberry Ungolients Lembas, and so, womb-ed elf children, about Aredhel :)

I just re-read "Of Maeglin", here's something interesting....

...but his father gave him no name until he was twelve years old. Then he called him Maeglin, which is sharp glance.

The Silmarillion, p. 160, paperback, Allen & Unwen, 1979 Edition (it's good 'n old, nice yellowed pages

Not this tells us definitively a great deal, but there was no reason to presuppose that we're to think of anything other than your 'average 12 year old' as we read this prose. Surely JRRT would have said something about differentials in maturation rates for this, were we supposed to think that Maeglin was 'younger' developmentally, than a human. Just a thought.

On an aside, I'm sorry, but how on Valinor can Maeglin be a 'Dark Elf'. The text says "he was kinsman of Thingol of Doriath!" And bangs on, several times, about Eol being proudly Telerin, cross, bothered and spitting chips about all the Noldor-ish Elfy things ruining his Telerin party. Though, he has dark hair! Ha? Telerin, and all that! Poor Maeglin, though. I mean, what chance have you got - ma is poisoned to death by a javelin, by dad, who was trying to kill Maeglin. Then, the Noldor-ish idea about 'justice' was to - um WHAT - TOSS EOL off the CLIFFS! OMG! Then, Maeglin gets his first cousin all increasingly weirded out coz he has the hots for Idril, who just gets weirder in her behaviour towards Maeglin, which weirds Maeglin out further and makes him all dark and--evil? Ha?

Sorry, Tolkien's got a few problems here. Maeglin is a product of perverse Elfy conventions, who think it's okay to toss relatives off cliffs, but who think Maeglin's a great weirdo for thinking what he did about his first cousin. I mean, Eru-have mercy! Maeglin wasn't socialised with his first couz and so, to his perspective, she's just a beautiful Elf. He wouldn't have the same kinds of feelings as would be expected for close co-rearing and growing together as children. Really! Those Elfy conventions were harsh and would have warped Maeglin, leaving him vulnerable for warping by Morgoth.

[Mithalwen]

They didn't chuck him of the cliff for nothing though did they? If the Silmarillion teaches us anything it is that elvenkings are a bit touchy about their daughters and their privacy...

[Ivriniel]

They didn't chuck him of the cliff for nothing though did they? If the Silmarillion teaches us anything it is that elvenkings are a bit touchy about their daughters and their privacy...

[lighthearted]hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact). And never mind that just about every bloodline in Arda of the elfy lord-ified, elfy people kept interbreeding!

I mean, come on Elu, really? You ar *that* uptight? Oh my god! I've got a headache just thinking about you. Poor Melian, you blockhead! Beren and Luthien need to go to the 12th dimension with a trans-warp drive (not yet invented--you know that batwing cloak she flew as in disguise of a 'vampire' or something--pretty creepy in a way), then sings the Dark Lord to sleep, coz he's just, really, down deep misunderstood and likes a lullaby.[/lighthearted)

*pulls self together*

I do love the mythology, and I love Tolkien's style, and I will still tear up at the old tales. But, as I've aged, I grow more forgiving of some of the characters, like Frodo at Orodruin, and Maeglin, who...

*turns to Turgon* *furrows brow, and points finger* Man!--sorry--Elf!--what on earth did you think would come of ur elfy justice! You should have been much kinder to ur son in law. And as for your grandson--ah dah--u taught him 'do as I say not as I do, young man!'. Never works Turgon. So don't go getting all 'it's all Melkor's fault' about all this. You should have cautioned ur precious granddaughter to be a little more kind to her cous, and maybe, if you all just chatted about it, rather than tossing elfy people off cliffs, you'd still have ur lovely city.

[Mithalwen]

Losing you here...don't give a stuff about Beren and Luthien ( or the drip and the canary as I call them in in my more charitable moments), but Idril is one of my favourites and her judgement is usually sound. But I am confused because Turgon's son in law was Tuor and grandson was Eärendil and was fond of both, Aredhel was his sister not his daughter in the published Sil at least. And I thought Celeborn was descended from Elmo.... bringing that crucial divine Muppet strain into Telerin bloodlines...

[Ivriniel]

Losing you here...don't give a stuff about Beren and Luthien ( or the drip and the canary as I call them in in my more charitable moments), but Idril is one of my favourites and her judgement is usually sound. But I am confused because Turgon's son in law was Tuor and grandson was Eärendil and was fond of both, Aredhel was his sister not his daughter in the published Sil at least. And I thought Celeborn was descended from Elmo.... bringing that crucial divine Muppet strain into Telerin bloodlines...

hahaha :) :)

I did love reading about Aredhel in Valinor. She was a really gung-ho, strong woman, and pretty gutsy. I shouldn't get too serious about Idril, except to say, I suppose if your cous who you're not into is giving you lecherous, creepy looks, you'd be a bit weirded out. Idril is pretty awesome, you have to say....Tuor was a very lucky guy. I love Idril's heraldic device--(but I'd have imagined, that she should have outed it all--the covert themes--so that they could have ironed out Maeglin [who had daddy issues] and help him grow truer. I'd have liked to see Idril chatting to Maeglin and matter-of-factly, without being a psycho, helped out with it all, if possible, and for Maeglin to have been mentored by warm, supportive others and set straight)

Still, *points at them all in Gondolin* you should all have just talked more openly and done something else. :) Fools the lot of you!

[Ivriniel]

.....I didn't read all ur post right.

Yes, generally, its Elmo, younger bro of the freak Elu, who is, I think grandson of Elmo who is grandsire of Celeborn (another freak). Placing, as you note Elmo as a more distant relative of Galadriel (still in bred. So Irdil, get a life and deal with it). But, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there's a very late essay, written by Tolkien, and a month before his death, noting that Celeborn--known also as Teleporno-very unfortunate phonetic (Telep-orno 'silver tree' is okay, but you get my drift). On Alqualonde, the essay points out that They share the same granddaddy. Creepy. And explicitly points out their exemption from the Kinslaying, and notes they made no anti-Mandos-y vow thing, nabbed a boat, got to Beleriand ahead of Feanor (Galadriel's 'unfriend forever'), and fought "valiantly" against the Kinslaying and made another of those stupid "I'm your enemy forever" promises to thwart cousin Feanor, for Feanor's freak show and murderous impulses.

[Mithalwen]

Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them. Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....

[Ivriniel]

Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them.

I laughed out in a roar!

*note to self* I suppose silver hair would add a splash of head turning and so, the alpha elven bois get a bit of leeway to allow some of their crappy behaviour. Still Galadriel smelled of dwarves (I mean, she loved Khazad Dum and sang dwarf songs with them...Did that make her short?) and Celeborn didn't ditch her, even though he vomited tacks and his head turned at the sight of a dwarf.

Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....

I mean, daddy made black swords out of meteorites (remember that bit about Beleg and one of Eol's swords) that he learned to forge from Dwarves for Eru's sake! Now Idril must have thought that cous really was all a bit weird! I mean, what use is a black sword at an elfy feast where Silmaril-y songs about the Drip and the Canary (being charitable) are told!

[Galin]

[lighthearted] hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact).

This illustrates my 'canon considerations': late-has-weight fails for me here, utterly, as Celeborn the Teler of Swanhaven contradicts author-published description. And we know Tolkien's memory was not 'retentive' in his later years, nor do we have any indication here that he was aware [at the time of writing] that he was stepping on already published material, and didn't mind.

Plus, if it helps, that gets rid of Teleporno the unfortunate name [by association] as there is no need for a Sinda of Beleriand to have a formerly Telerin name.

Or at least, maybe Telporno is better [not Teleporno], which occurs in a very late letter dated December 1972 [the very very late adumbrated tale as paraphrased employs Celeborn I think]. The loss of the vowel in question might possibly be due to syncope...

... although a trained linguist me is not :D

Also, in general for the thread, maybe the history falls in step with the idea that Elves matured at about the same rate as Men.

Sorry ;)

[Mithalwen]

Well with his background a "We need to talk about Maeglin" situation was perhaps always going to be a possibility. Galadriel was said to be tallest of elven womem estimated at 6"4 and Celeborn of like height. Maybe not exceptional for an elf man though the Teleri were meant to be generally less tall than the Noldo..though the most prominent Thingol, Círdan, Celeborn are all described as tall. Who knows, maybe they are being sarcastic (cf Celeborn the Wise :p ), maybe it is a euphemism:Merisu:

[Mithalwen]

I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course... :cool:

[Ivriniel]

snip<--utterly-->snip

That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.

Though, really, I'm not utterly utterly-est sure he (Tolkien) was so void of neuronal integrity at 73 that he would have forgotten good ole crazy alpha boi Celeborn and all that!

The distinct lineage, of Alqualonde carries some weight, imo, coz Galdriel (even as feanor's unfriend forever) was one of the Great-est uber-est. Even ranked as nigh to Feanor......so.....I've always been uncomfortable with her partnering a Teleri who never saw The Trees. It seems to me that Teleporno, for that reason, and of such high lineage, made a better match.

do u have Tolkien's ct and fMRI scans handy? Post em and let's see how much grey matter was left :)

[Ivriniel]

I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course... :cool:

:cool:

When you invent a time machine (and someone helps out with a parallel universe thing), I'll put Turgon on Ritalin to calm him down when Eol comes into Gondolin.

[Galin]

Incidentally, if one is dealing with the 3,000 concept, while the rate to maturity seems to have diminished in Middle-earth over time, I interpret that it remained constant in Aman however. So for those Elves born in Aman, 3,000 actual years must fit [again unless Tolkien was thinking of changing the Annals to reflect this new idea, as it doesn't seemingly work that well for all events, the flight of the Noldor for example].

Tolkien makes it somewhat 'easy' however, as an Elf of 20 Valian Years is almost 3,000 years old. So for Aman the numbers will seem like a normal enough human period, by comparison. That is, if Galadriel seems to be an adult, around 20 'years' old at least, let's say, according to something in the tale, that's still enough real time.

Arwen half-elven was married when she was about this age, in Valian Years that is, or Elvish Long Years [since they are equivalent using 144].

[Galin]

That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Am I sure Tolkien himself published that Celeborn was a Sindarin Elf?

Yes :D twice; although one mention fell out in the second edition.

This late version also contradicts Galadriel's role in the Rebellion in The Road Goes Ever On. And while not an impossible thing to explain, it makes me wonder why Celeborn, if 'really' from Aman that is, seemed not to want to part with Galadriel when he remained, for a time, in Middle-earth.

He didn't want to go back to Swanhaven 'so soon'? Ahem. Possibly, but it seems odd...

... and even when Tolkien spoke to why Celeborn remained for a time, part of his statement The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien but was published by Hammond and Scull] included that Celeborn had never been to Aman.