The plants of middle earth

[Alfirin]

Greetings,

As the title suggests the purpose of this thread is to hear as to what you think the real species of some of the plants of middle earth are. I will start with the plant I take my own screen name from Alfirin and its sister plant Mallos.

These two are a little difficult I have always imagined Alfirin as looking a little like a yellow flowered lily-of-the valley as that would meet the requirement that the flowers be bell shaped. The only problem is that lily of the valley is a deep woods plant and would be unlikey to be growing in a spot as open as the Plains of Lebbenen. Some sort of wild asphodel would work as well but their flowers are not particualry bell shaped. I imagine that mallos has larger flowers than alfirn and as being more upright but this is proably because Mallos sounds so much like mallow so I keep imagining a wild hollyhock.

Culumalda- I really don't know, there are so many red foliaged trees. Maybe the copper beech?

Evermind- the rohirrim grave flower. I think that this and niphridel are the same thing in which case its a kind of anemone (Tolkien said explicity that niphridel resembed the wood anemone but was smaller and whiter)

Gallows Weed- This is probably spanish moss

Lairelosse- another tough one. Maybe some sort of giant white flowered lilac?

Laurinque- This is almost certainly the koleurainia or golden rain tree. though if Numenor was a tropical place other choices like the golden shower tree (Cassia fistulosa) are possible. I believe both have good wood.

Lissuin- since this is described as being the most fragrant flower I beive it is prably meant to be something like mingionette.

Nessemelda, Oiolaire, Taniquilasse and Vardarianna- There it little said about these trees except that they are fragrant. However I am fairly sure that a least one if not all would be in the laurel family. one or the other of the latter two is probably some kind of Cinnamon tree since both are said to have fragrant bark as well as leaves. Oiolaire may be a kind of bay since it stays green for a long time and would be a good choice for a safety token

Seregon-The "blood snow" plant that grew on Amon Rudh. I think that given the rokiness of the blad hill Seregon, is prably some kind of sedum with dark red flowers

Yavannamire- Possibily some kind of citrus (though I would not describe a citrus fruit as being "luscios") other possiblities include some sort of persimmon (though this is in fact a more likely identity for lebethron the Gondor wood of which the hobbits staffs and the case for Aragorn's crown are made of since persimmons are the temperate member of the ebony family)

[Bêthberry]

Interesting conjectures, Alfirin, and welcome to the Downs. Surprisingly, there aren't many gardeners here. Perhaps since we are all dead in the Barrow (a running joke, somewhat hobbled from overuse) most of us tend to be more among the compost than the flourishing plants. ;)

Alfirin could also be a bellflower, which comes in a variety of colours and which has both low, ground-hugging varieties and taller forms. At least, I think this plant conforms to the bell shape and white is a predominate colour for it. It is also a willowly, whispy plant that shimmers in the wind.

For some images of the peach leaf bellflower, see here (http://images.google.ca/images?gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=peach+leaf+bellflower&spell=1).

[Morthoron]

Excellent summary, Alfirin, and welcome. As I am no horticulturist or arborist, I would be flippant if I attempted any descriptive exposition. However, you can add pipeweed (nicotiana, tobacco in description) to your list of plants, as well as athelas (kingsfoil, an herb by all accounts), and lebethron (a black wood) to the discussion on trees. I will sit back and watch, as around my home I am only allowed to mow the grass and trim the verge.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Laurinque- This is almost certainly the koleurainia or golden rain tree. though if Numenor was a tropical place other choices like the golden shower tree (Cassia fistulosa) are possible. I believe both have good wood.

I'm pretty sure that Laurelin herself, and thus laurinque, are explicitly based on the laburnum.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Welcome! I do not possess your knowledge of plants and gardening, and I am not sure if this will help you (indeed, you may already have seen it), but there is a wonderful letter (#312) where Tolkien discusses some of the flowers in LotR. He is looking through the Cape Flower Book and says this:

I have not seen anything that immediately recalls niphedril or elannor or alfirin: but that I think is because those imagined flowers are lit by a light that would not be seen ever in a growing plant and cannot be recaptured by paint. Lit by that light, niphedril would be simply a delicate kin of a snowdrop' and elanor a pimpernel (perhaps a little enlarged) growing sun-gold flowers and star-silver ones on the same plant, and sometimes the two combined. Alfirin ("immortal") would be an immortelle, but not dry and papery: simply a bell-like flower, running through many colors, but soft and gentle....

I am always amazed at how much practical knowledge Tolkien had about flowers and how he obviously loved them. At the same time, when he writes about flowers, even those that have equivalents in the "real world" he describes them in such a way to become "more" than they were before......we see shadows and nuances that are only hinted at when we look at a real blossom on earth.

Have you seen the book "The Plants of Middle-earth: Botany and Subcreation" by Dinah Hazell? Lalwende has mentioned this before, but it is a lovely, lovely book. What makes it unusual and a joy to read are all the plates: replications of pen and ink sketches and watercolors. I have just dipped in and out of it, but will be going on a plane trip and am taking it along for a "serious" read.

Haskell makes an interesting point. She talks about how, in the middle of a world filled with strange and fantastic beings, Tolkien used "familiar" grasses and forests and flowers to create a landscape we feel comfortable in. Although there are fantastic, magical plants that have no earthly equivalent, most of the flora actually came from Tolkien's England. There's a fascinating chapter where JRRT surveys female hobbit names and, looking closely at each flower, tries to identify the characteristics that the parents were emphasizing when they gave their child that particular name.

So much Tolkien criticism nowadays is just "same old, same old". But this book shows a different way of looking at things. It also reminds us just how unusual a man Tolkien was.....that we can't just pigeonhole him as "Christian" or "medievalist" or "philologist". The minute we do that another piece of Tolkien---in this case, botanist, gardener, and lover of plant lore--surfaces and gives us a big surprise.

[Alfirin]

Thanks to all who have responded so far

I agree that laburnum is a far more likely identity for laurinque than either of the ones metioed if for no other reason than tolkien would have been familar with laburnum but probably not with either of my two. since the cassia is tropical and kolurenia was not a popular tree planting back when tolkein was alive. I would point out however that it would have to be a kind of laburnum which grew to far larger proportions than the current type as the currnet type is too short and spindy to produce wood planks of the size that would be needed for ship building

I did not put pipeweed on the list for the same reason I left out brethel (beech) region (holly) and many other still extant trees, everyone knows thier identites so no speculation could ensue.

I actually did mention lebethron its in the secion on Yavannamire. As I stated my money on some sort of persimmon which would have black wood (i.e. ebony) and which does have finger like leaves.

I have no clue as to what plat Athelas is based on. I though it might be somewhere in the Lamiacae (mint family) since a lot of members of that family are medicinal (including some with the telling name of "heal all") though such mints do not generally have leaves that could be described as long.

I had never heard of that Tolkein letter before thank you for pointing it out. Its intersting that tolkein envisioned a yellow/white pimpernel as being eleanor since european pimpernels usually only come in pale blue or orange (the orange is the famous "scarlet pimpernel" though both are in fact the same species.) I guess tolkein chaged his mind a some point about what niphredel was since he as Imentioned had said elswhere it was a kind of wood anemone (which does not look like a snowdrop at all)

The real problem with getting the identitiy of Alfrin right is that Tolkien seem to have used the same for two different plants. I think based on the context that Tolkein is using Alfirin in its other sense as a synonym for Uilos (as he does in bits of the Silmarillion. If this is the case than it means that evermind is an imortelle (I have now idea what an imortelle is but it think it may be the same thing as a strawflower if tolkien says it's papery) A bellfower is a good guess for the Lebennen alfrin, though it also tends to like shady woods (maybe Lebennen doesn't get a lot of sun)

[Rumil]

Hi all,

nice topic Alfirin, the Middle Earth herblore is rarely touched on apart from Athelas and Elanor.

as a total non-gardener these days (I killed off my last plant in the flat -must get another!) I wonder if you could all post links to pictures of the possible RealWorld(TM) equivalents of the Middle Earth plants? It would help!

Cheers,

[Lalwendë]

Alfirin you must get hold of the book Child mentions, it's really good - not only as a Tolkien book but because it has some great stuff about real world plants.

Tolkien was of course a very keen gardener. This was only intensified during WWII when he had to dig up much of his garden in order to grow veg - the Dig For Victory campaign. One of the many jobs he did around the house and garden at Northmoor Road was to put up a Trellis on the front fence for Edith, with some help from one of his sons (I think....Michael, but will have to look that up). Anyway, I was over at the house last year and while gazing at it suddenly realised - the trellis is still there! This is quite amazing as the house sold for somewhere around one million pounds not long ago and you'd think the first thing the new owner would do is to remove a very weather beaten old trellis, but no! Have to say you could see the owner pottering in his garage - he was a pensioner and had an ancient VW Golf so he certainly was not a Flash Harry. I hope that trellis is protected by law....

But anyway... story over....

One plant I think I can place is Athelas - I'm sure this is a combination drawn from both Comfrey and Mint. The latter of course is well known for releasing fumes in the form of menthol, but the latter is one I'm learning more about as I have too much of it in my own garden - it is a great plant for healing bruises, but it also has incredible properties as a fertiliser apparently, if steeped in a watering can! I've also discovered it has regenerative powers as mine has sprung up again from yearly death after the snails (ugh) bred in it.

As for trees with drooping flower stems - wisteria! The traditional variety has really tough stems with tree-like qualities and it would take the lifetime of an Elf in some cases to see the stuff flower! Grrr!

I am of course an overkeen gardener as davem will tell you - you currently cannot get round my garden due to all the pots in it...cannot resist new plants (especially mystery ones) and now all my seed grown ones are potted out too...

[Alfirin]

I think I've got you beat on obssesive gardening, Lalwende. One of my hobbies is taking the errant "weed seeds" that I find in bags of imported beans and spices that i purcase for cooking and planting the in pots, just so i can see what come up. (pots so they don't get out and spread all over the place). I current have amongs other things a pair of barrels cotaining assorted vetches, and a stump full of bur gourds, wild horned melons assorted african cucumber relatives and a smattering of wild oats. I had wild peas and wild soybeans earlier in the year too but the former have all been harvested and the latter were eaten by squirrels

As to the picture posting I'm afraid i'm not very good at computer functions and getting pictures posted is probably beyond my skills. If you give me a few days I can prably make a list of links to pictures of the plants being discussed and post that if that would be of any use.

I hand though of comfrey for Athelas. What a good idea it's in the daisy family so it would have longish leaves. I think the mintish qualities however are less like common mind and more like those of the more medicnal min realives like pennyroyal or horehound especally becuse Athelas is supposed to smell "wholesome" but not "sweet"

I suppose wisteria might cover some of the hanging white flowers though I'm more used to thinking of that as a vine than a tree and it doesn't really have an odor.

I also have a new one the undietified vine bearing star shaped white flowers which frodo sees growing on the decaptated statue at the crossroads in Ithiilien. My bet its white flowered cypress vine (Imponomea qualicomit) in the morning glory family.

[Lalwendë]

NOt sure where you are, but most Wisteria grown in the UK is strongly scented! This is the lilac flowered variety - grow more than two or three stems of it and it could pull your house down it's so woody. You get some unusual varieties though and there is one in a front garden near my house that has indeed been trained into a tree! A White flowered, non-scented one - this year is the first time it has flowered.

Now there's a kind of Eastern balm or sage that could also be a good candidate for Athelas....but I can't locate the name yet....

EDIT - Found! What I was thinking of was Tulasi or Holy Basil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_basil), as used in the Ayurvedic tradition of medicine. Not sure about the leaf shapes but the traditions make it sound appropriate.

[Bêthberry]

First, many thanks to Child for telling us about Dinah Hazell's book. Definitely a must-find! I know of at least one little, independent gardening store that would probably like to add that to its small library of gardening books, which are sold mainly before Christmas in an effort to expand sales beyond the gardening season, which is limited here.

I'm fascinated by the comment quoted in one review, that Hazell refers to "Tolkien as preserver and transmitter of English cultural expression." The Empire might have passed but the empire of cultural hegemony remains? Anyhow, thoughts most likely for another thread.

Of course, letter # 312 raises all kinds of scientific questions--enough that I'm sure alatar could pose another thread as successful as the elven snow prints one! Would Tolkien's comment that those flowers contain a light--the same light that the Simarils trapped, the Light of the Two Trees?--suggest something about the botany of Arda? We know that two trees were elevated above others. Now he suggests that some flowers were, well, closer to the original music than others? Or does all of Middle-earth's plant life sustain this special light, which now for us is gone? What does it mean to extend the special effect of the Two Trees to Two Flowers?


If this is the case than it means that evermind is an imortelle (I have now idea what an imortelle is but it think it may be the same thing as a strawflower if tolkien says it's papery)

I think what you are describing is called in North America an everlasting (http://images.google.ca/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&q=everlasting+flower&btnG=Search+Images).


Now there's a kind of Eastern balm or sage that could also be a good candidate for Athelas....but I can't locate the name yet....

EDIT - Found! What I was thinking of was Tulasi or Holy Basil, as used in the Ayurvedic tradition of medicine. Not sure about the leaf shapes but the traditions make it sound appropriate.

There's no telling what Tolkien might have learnt in his study of philology. Who knows what he could have found in his studies of the sources of Indo-European languages. Is there anything in his letters to suggest that in family illness he sought out Ayurvedic traditions of medicine?

[Alfirin]

I think what you are describing is called in North America an everlasting (http://images.google.ca/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&q=everlasting+flower&btnG=Search+Images).


YES That is exactly what I meant by a strawflower. This lends strenth that tolkein was refrerring to the Uilos Alfirin as these flowers are not even remotely bell shaped but are star shaped (okay sun shaped but that's pretty close)

I'm actually located in the NE corner of North America so it is quite possible that we are talking about diffent wisterias (I meant the old W. Chinensis) I agree that two or three vines will pull down a house. One on its own has already smothered several trees on my property and another one was recently cut down before it snapped a telephone pole in half!

I agree that tulsi is also a good athelas choice. for the record the leaves are shaped much like convential sweet basil but are grey an a little fuzzy the smell is somewhat liquorice like. It makes a very tasty and relaxing tea. If tsulsi is athelas I am only glad that Tolkein did not add a version of its orgin story to the lore. since the Indian legend of where tutsli came from while interesting is a little on greusome side. (Basically the legend says that the gods honored the first Indian woman who threw herself on her husbands funeral pyre by making tulsi from the charred remains of her hair.) you can find a picture at www.nilacharal.com

okay here's the list as promised


mallow-www.humeseeds.com
lily of the valley-www.merliannews.com
copper beech-www.gardenplansireland.com
wood anemone -www.naturephoto-cz.com
spanish moss -www.crowleymuseumnaturectr.org
white lilac -www.people.cornell.edu
Cassia fistulosa-plants.usda.gov
mingionette-www.artvilla.com
Cinnamon tree-www.comfsm.fm
bay laurel-groups.msn.com
sedum-www.directgardening.com
persimmon tree-The American persimmon tree
ebony-www.sfrc.ufl.edu
laburnumthe-plant-directory.com
Koelreuteria-www.lacity.org (please note corrected spelling)
scarlet pimpernel-www.kenbowles.net
snowdrop-www.valhallagardens.com
bellfower-ppng.home.comcast.net
pennyroyal-www.djroger.com
horehound-kaweahoaks.com
wisteria-www.nps.gov

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I actually did mention lebethron its in the secion on Yavannamire. As I stated my money on some sort of persimmon which would have black wood (i.e. ebony) and which does have finger like leaves.

Persimmon is in fact a true ebony (diospyros). It would be a stretch, though, to find any member of the genus which would grow straight enough for a good staff! Just maybe Macassar ebony (which however is striped). Perhaps one of the darker rosewoods, like African blackwood, or the really old (and unobtainable) nearly-black examples of jacaranda: but then the leaves would be wrong.


Note: Telperion, and thus the White Tree of Gondor, was in the form of a cherry-tree.

[Alfirin]

There's also Australian Blackwood (Acacia Melanoxylon) but that, like the African ebonies in Dalbergia (the rosewoods) is a compound leafed legume and therfore a bit unlikely. Jacaranda(Bignoacae, the trumpet creeper family) is also compound as you noted and thefore not a good choice. Good for noting that persimmon is a true ebony very few people know that! Because of that ebony fruit is actually edible. it's called caca-poule (yest that means exactly what it sound like) or more often now chocolate pudding fruit. One of the things I kick my slef for daily is that i passed on my once chace to buy some of this fruut and hence to have my own ebony tree in a pot for one of the pits. IF you are a UK resident and want to try it about the only place i would gess its obtainable is in the food halls of Harrods and even there only seasonally.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sorry- by jacaranda I meant Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra). Bloody vernacular names!

Australian "blackwood" isn't black at all- like most acacias it's a honey-gold- in fact it's increasingly being used as a substitute for Hawaiian koa.

[Alfirin]

Yeah the names can be a nightmare. I had a nightmre with "amaranth" (I was looking for seed for the tree i.e. for purpleheart and kept being redirect to seed for the grain/vegetable. Or more pertinent to the discussion at hand the Cassia (the spice usuall used for cinnamon) versus Cassia (the genus with the golden shower tree now more often called Senna).

By the way thanks for the cherry identity for thye White tree of gondor/ Nimloth. I always though there was a probelem with the image I'd see so often of an Oakish tree (most particularly in the old Rankin Bass-cartoon version) namely Isulad stole a "fruit" from Nimloth and oaks of corse have nuts not fruits (well botanically a nut is a fruit/seed but we sorta know that if Tolkein said fruit he meant somthing flesh which a cherry certainly fits.

[Bêthberry]

I agree that tulsi is also a good athelas choice. for the record the leaves are shaped much like convential sweet basil but are grey an a little fuzzy the smell is somewhat liquorice like. It makes a very tasty and relaxing tea. If tsulsi is athelas I am only glad that Tolkein did not add a version of its orgin story to the lore. since the Indian legend of where tutsli came from while interesting is a little on greusome side. (Basically the legend says that the gods honored the first Indian woman who threw herself on her husbands funeral pyre by making tulsi from the charred remains of her hair.)

Well, that is even more fascinating, given Arwen's death. Granted she does not exactly throw herself on her husband's funeral pyre and we do have that monument to the madness of self-immolation in the macabre steward. ;) However, it is true that Aragorn's death produces a depression in her that removes her will or desire to remain living. She withdraws from her children, from Gondor, and from life and dies upon the green hill which is the monument to hers and Aragorn's love. It is a green byre, if I may be allowed to play upon bower and pyre. Emotionally or psychologically, there are similarities with the tulasi tale.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I know that technically mushrooms aren't plants, but I've always been a little curious as to what kind of mushrooms Hobbits have available, and more particularly which variety or varieties Farmer Maggot gives Frodo.

[Alfirin]

The common european white mushroom would be the most obvios choice but I've always though that a more fitting choice would be morels(members.fortunecity.com) They are tasty enough that someone might very well poach them, rare enough that it would make sense for someone to keep guards dogs to protect their crop, and most tellingly, one of the tradtional ways of eating them is fried with bacon just as Maggot served them to the hobbits.

[Lalwendë]

Ordinary British Field Mushrooms are now so rare that if there are any growing in a given area, the locals will be sworn to secrecy! Even in the 50s when organic cow farming (the type of pasture which produces the best mushies) was common, my dad was keen enough to get some from the fields on his RAF base that he risked riding his bike over the runway in the early morning fog in order to get his mushies. Nobody would have seen him sneak off for them - so nobody else would find out his source, but he also risked getting into serious trouble! ;)

And I've just remembered a post I wrote (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=524281&postcount=19) about the Germanic custom of the Symbel - and it's links to the word Simbelmyne.

[alatar]

Of course, letter # 312 raises all kinds of scientific questions--enough that I'm sure alatar could pose another thread as successful as the elven snow prints one! Would Tolkien's comment that those flowers contain a light--the same light that the Simarils trapped, the Light of the Two Trees?--suggest something about the botany of Arda? We know that two trees were elevated above others. Now he suggests that some flowers were, well, closer to the original music than others? Or does all of Middle-earth's plant life sustain this special light, which now for us is gone? What does it mean to extend the special effect of the Two Trees to Two Flowers?
It had always been a dream of mine to see the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurelin. That not being possible, I once years ago considered making my own (when you study molecular and cellular biology, you tend to think thus, having glimpsed a few bars of Eru's song book.). In the lab we used luciferase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferase) to determine the amount of ATP (read 'cell's energy') in some reaction. You'd mix the stuff in a tube, give a laugh like, "Heh heh heh," (scientists are required to do this to continue the stereotype that we're all mad) then watch the contents glow. Also, as a matter of practice, and I'm sure that school children are now doing the same, we would cut and splice pieces of DNA into these little loops then trick bacteria into sucking them in and mass-producing our DNA (note that this was BP - before Polymerase Chain Reaction).

It occurred to me that the same fun could be used to get other organisms to make luciferase (would that be considered doing the Devil's handiwork?), taking the gene from a firefly and using retroviruses to lock it into the host's DNA. The host then would churn out the bioluminescent substrate and all would be bliss - unless that killed the host. My idea was to get shrubbery to do this, then one could light one's walkway without a bulb in sight. Actually watched people add genes to individual mice cells in order to make transgenic mice, so newer methods are available, but...

My professor, long suffering, countered my enthusiasm as he knew that I hadn't considered the energy requirements. Even if it were possible to have a shrub glow, how much ATP would it take to keep the thing going - scientists can be such killjoys. Trees, like a maple, produce a sweet sap that can end up on flapjakes, and so my counter counter was that if these trees could go on living after being tapped to make my breakfast syrup, then surely they could glow if we left them their sap. Also, some plants actually ate bugs, such as the Venus Fly Trap, and so that could also be the added ATP source.

It was then decided that I should get back to work as neither of us dealt with plant cells, and there were human cell lines to be cultured, and my professor always started to worry when I was outlining my plan for designing large carnivorous glowing trees (formerly I had a similar plan to get them walking, but that too required too much energy). :rolleyes:

Anyway, while I dreamed away of one day seeing a glowing tree, nature was working on its own version, which, demonstrating that hobbits do rule, ended up being, of all things, a mushroom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalotus_olearius).

Anyway, if someone wants to take the idea and run with it - have at it, just give me an acknowledgment and let me know how fast I need run.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

ATP- isn't that the stuff behind firefly lights?

[Lalwendë]

So what Alatar actually was trying to bio-engineer was a mad combo of Telperion-Ent-Old Man Willow?

Or, errr, a Triffid. :eek:

[Bêthberry]

My professor, long suffering, countered my enthusiasm as he knew that I hadn't considered the energy requirements. Even if it were possible to have a shrub glow, how much ATP would it take to keep the thing going - scientists can be such killjoys. Trees, like a maple, produce a sweet sap that can end up on flapjakes, and so my counter counter was that if these trees could go on living after being tapped to make my breakfast syrup, then surely they could glow if we left them their sap. . . . and my professor always started to worry when I was outlining my plan for designing large carnivorous glowing trees (formerly I had a similar plan to get them walking, but that too required too much energy). :rolleyes:

Anyway, while I dreamed away of one day seeing a glowing tree, nature was working on its own version, which, demonstrating that hobbits do rule, ended up being, of all things, a mushroom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalotus_olearius).



Having recently had the sad misfortune to watch a 125 year old oak felled because of structural damage in a storm, I can say that roots are integral to a fully functioning tree. In fact, even once the trunk was sawn off, the stump persisted in pumping up/out sap/water for the now-nonexistent tree.

Which raises an interesting point about ents. If roots are the 'heart' of a tree, pumping the essential life fluid through all the limbs, what fulfils that function in ents? Or are their feet hairy, like hobbit feet, but hairy with roots, which can immediately dig down into the earth once an ent stops walking? Or have ents developed a sort of secondary heart where their limbs meet at the trunk, which ensures the free flow of sap? I recall some dinosaurs actually had second brains to control the movement of their tail...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is the sort of fantasy conception that doesn't really bear strict scrutiny- like flying, talking, firebreathing dragons- but I'm not sure Tolkien really envisioned Ents as animated trees, i.e. made of wood. Rereading the initial description of Treebeard one gets the impression of a flesh-and-blood troll-like creature that *looks* tree-ish, like a walking-stick insect on a much larger scale.

[alatar]

ATP- isn't that the stuff behind firefly lights?
Think that that's the luciferase, which is powered by adenosine 5'-triphosphate - ATP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate) ("ATP is the main energy source for the majority of cellular functions."). It's pretty ubiquitous. My friend used to joke that wouldn't it be cool to drink a glass of ATP; the closest we came was drinking Mountain Dew syrup (no water). Don't try that at home.


So what Alatar actually was trying to bio-engineer was a mad combo of Telperion-Ent-Old Man Willow?
Guess that the good thing in that combination is that light travels faster than sound, so you'd see'm coming before he caught you with his singing.


Having recently had the sad misfortune to watch a 125 year old oak felled because of structural damage in a storm, I can say that roots are integral to a fully functioning tree. In fact, even once the trunk was sawn off, the stump persisted in pumping up/out sap/water for the now-nonexistent tree.
My thumb is black, not green, but I heard that many plants/trees store up a lot of 'food' in their roots for the winter, which dictates when you can safely prune a tree - not sure when that is.

Which raises an interesting point about ents. If roots are the 'heart' of a tree, pumping the essential life fluid through all the limbs, what fulfils that function in ents? Or are their feet hairy, like hobbit feet, but hairy with roots, which can immediately dig down into the earth once an ent stops walking? Or have ents developed a sort of secondary heart where their limbs meet at the trunk, which ensures the free flow of sap? I recall some dinosaurs actually had second brains to control the movement of their tail...
Again, my 'specialty' was human biology, and things smaller than a cell, but thought that trees 'pump' fluid by a process called transpiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpiration), which sounds a lot like you think it might. Water kinda 'sweats out' the leaves, and this mini-vacuum draws water from the roots upward. Heard that this is a pretty important thing as if it weren't available, plants would be very flat.

Treebeard may or may not have a physical heart. He may use transpiration. My question, getting back to my mad days, is what exactly does he eat? Plants do not move because via photosynthesis they don't make a whole lot of 'food.' Another mad idea was to add chlorophyll to human skin cells so that when you're vacationing at the beach you could skip an over-priced meal or two. But that same professor made me figure out how much energy it took to walk, and how much is gathered from the sun via chlorophyll, and the answer is that you'd still need to eat - and having that green tinge to your skin, nobody would order the same dish.

Anyway, I can see Treebeard drinking most of his energy requirements (think that it would be 'heavy' even for a hobbit's taste), but can't see him setting down roots with every footfall as Ents walk just too fast.

[Bêthberry]

Another mad idea was to add chlorophyll to human skin cells so that when you're vacationing at the beach you could skip an over-priced meal or two. But that same professor made me figure out how much energy it took to walk, and how much is gathered from the sun via chlorophyll, and the answer is that you'd still need to eat - and having that green tinge to your skin, nobody would order the same dish. . . . Treebeard may or may not have a physical heart. He may use transpiration.


Or, errr, a Triffid

Sounds more like Shrek or Gumby to me now with this latest bit of info. Where's Esty? She might be interested. ;)

This is the sort of fantasy conception that doesn't really bear strict scrutiny- like flying, talking, firebreathing dragons- but I'm not sure Tolkien really envisioned Ents as animated trees, i.e. made of wood. Rereading the initial description of Treebeard one gets the impression of a flesh-and-blood troll-like creature that *looks* tree-ish, like a walking-stick insect on a much larger scale.


They found that they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high.

I think this gets us perilously close to the 'like shadows of wings' debate for those other creatures of fantasy conception who for our own good shall not be named here. ;)

It's a good point to make, that the Ents are not precisely trees, but the exact nature of the relationship between Ents and trees is, like many things in Middle-earth, made deliberately obscure, or, in the words of Tolkien about that other fellow who seemed a shepherd over Old Man Willow, an enigma.

some random passages:


Whether it [Treebeard] was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. . . .

Treebeard lifted up first one large foot and then the other, and moved them to the edge of the shelf. The rootlike [that word 'like' again!] toes grasped the rocks. . . .

The trees and the Ents . . I [Treebeard speaking] do not understand all that goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you. Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enought in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the tree are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. That is going on all the time. . . .

Some of my kin look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. . . .[

When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts. . . .

A bit evolutionary, eh? ;) Frankly, I think ents are Tolkien's revenge upon Shakespeare with his dissatisfaction with Burnham Wood and so to be wondered at but not pondered down to their taproots. . . . but we could wonder which trees might make the best potential Ents.

[alatar]

I agree that tulsi is also a good athelas choice. for the record the leaves are shaped much like convential sweet basil but are grey an a little fuzzy the smell is somewhat liquorice like. It makes a very tasty and relaxing tea.
Sorry that I didn't do this sooner, but 'Welcome to the Downs, Alfirin!' Must been all them lab fumes gone to my head and all.

Anyway, found a list (http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa061403a.htm) of plants with medicinal uses - not too hard to do - when trying to find one with analgesic properties similar to those of athelas. Sure, it takes a king's hand to get the full effect of the plant, but methinks that this is mostly legend. There's the whole placebo effect, meaning that just by being in the presence of the King (Aragorn or Elvis) was temporarily therapeutic in itself, and/or the King carefully cherry-picked those cases in which his 'healing hands' would have the greatest PR effect.

"Sire, there're injured here. One poor soldier with no arm, and another with a case of the Black Breath."

"Sorry, but I little time. Bring athelas - kingsfoil - to room #2 and I'll see what I can do."

Was watching my favorite show the other night Man vs Wild (http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/manvswild/manvswild.html) where Bear Grylls was escaping the Amazon. He'd cut himself - minor- but showed how one could use the blood red sap of a particular tree as an antiseptic. The other name for Croton draco (http://www.rain-tree.com/sangre.htm) is Dragon's Blood. The simbelmynë-like scions of Smaug's kind perhaps?

[Lalwendë]

Trees need roots eh? Try telling my old Gaffer that. He had a few of his old Willows blow down in a storm a few years back. He chopped them up and stacked the wood, then a while later decided to use it to make a new fence.

It grew.

:eek:

[Alfirin]

Alatar, If they did they must have left a lot of them as there are dozens of plants called "dragons blood" most famously Draceana draco (www.mgonlinestore.com) the dragons blood of medicine and violin manufacture. As a warning I would also point out not to go smearing croton sap on you wounds unless you know what you are doing as Croton is in the Spurge family (Euphobiacae) most of whose members are famous (or more acurately infamous) for having unbelivablly corrosive sap.

by the way check out this plant www.infojardin.com. Its called Chiranthodendron pentadactylon or in common name hand flower, anyone think that this could be a vegitative remmenent of Saruman's legacy?

I'm not surpised your grandfather's (that is what gaffer means right?) williow fence took root and grew. Willow is famous for doing that. It's one of the main reasons whiy some cultures used williow trees as symbols of immortality and resurrection.

By the way a though ocurred to me with regards to wether a true ebony could yield a piece of wood staight and large enough to yield a staff of hobbit size. As I recall an ebony staff is the badge of office of the so called "Black Rod", the king or queen's liason to Parliament. However never having seen a Parilamentary opeing I have no idea as to how large this staff is. If any of our UK members are here and have perhaps they could enlightent us. If it really is a full size staff that would prove that a solid ebony walking stick could at least be possible.

[Lalwendë]

A question that can only be answered by one of Her Madge's servants like me ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/81909.stm

The 'rod' is what gives him his title - Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. It is more like a fancy long, slender walking cane than a staff - it is made of ebony topped with a Lion's head. He has to tap it on the door of the Commons three times before they will let him in - after having already slammed it in his face of course.

The State Opening is worth watching for quirky old things and posts such as The Cap Of Maintenance, The Earl Marshall, The Sword Of State - all ancient symbols.

Nice image below:

http://www.parliament.uk/about/images/people/blackrod.cfm

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I notice that to make up the length the woodwright had to join two pieces together- also that it's (to my mind) too skinny to be much of a shilleleagh.

[alatar]

Alatar, If they did they must have left a lot of them as there are dozens of plants called "dragons blood" most famously Draceana draco (www.mgonlinestore.com) the dragons blood of medicine and violin manufacture.
Would explain what happened to all of the Worms, especially the ones that consumed the Dwarven Rings of Power. ;)

As a warning I would also point out not to go smearing croton sap on you wounds unless you know what you are doing as Croton is in the Spurge family (Euphobiacae) most of whose members are famous (or more acurately infamous) for having unbelivablly corrosive sap.
Noted; however, hope to never find myself lost in the Amazon, and as I live in a dying former steel town, probably experience rain that is more caustic (and have evolved to think it quite normal).

[Alfirin]

I notice that to make up the length the woodwright had to join two pieces together- also that it's (to my mind) too skinny to be much of a shilleleagh.

Thanks, well there goes that theory for Lebethron, along with one of my short story ideas (there was a short story I was writng (non-tolkein) where a minor plot point involved a whisky barrel made of persimmon heartwood.)

By the way since the question of the mushrooms was broached I have another agricultural question which came up in a disagreement I had with someone. Though not stated implicity do you think that Tolkein meant to imply that hops are grown in Middle-Earth, based on the fact that beer and ale are made an drunk there. I am aware of the fact that hopping of beer is near nearly unversal but I am also aware that it is possible to make beer without hops. (as in St. Peters King Cnut) Hopping became a common practice in english beer around the late middle ages so its a bit unclear as to whether Tolkiein meant for middle earth beer to be hopped or not. What do you all think?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

My deduction is that Tolkien intended the Shire to feel like a late-Victorian English village- that's why hobbits drink beer, and I would expect that beer to be hop-flavored English ale, not lager, nor any ancient-world concoction.

[Lalwendë]

Yes you can make beer without hops - the hops simply add bitterness and extra flavours; without them, beer would be quite sweet and very yeasty. They were introduced to Britain around 1400, but beer-drinking was a well established pursuit before then ;) Prior to the introduction of hops, other things would be used to add flavours, from the innocent such as Heather to the hallucinatory such as Wormwood and Henbane. Unhopped beer used to be known as 'ale' but in modern times 'ale' means beer that has been made with yeast that ferments 'at the top' in warm temperatures as opposed to 'lager' which uses the opposite process.

Almost all beer and lager now has hops in it including Ale - but you can get 'revival' beers which are brewed with herbs instead if you really search - you can sometimes find Heather Ale in Scotland, usually marketed by also telling you the tale of the last Pict who hurled himself to his death from the Mull of Galloway rather than tell the invading Scots the secret recipe for Heather Ale...

[alatar]

I know that this is off-topic, not being about plants and all, but I just wanted to finish off my thoughts about genetically engineering glowing trees (note that we would want the leaves to glow as the bark is like dead skin). You can see here (http://www.glofish.com/default.asp) how some 'mad' scientists are using glowing genes to make fish that detect clean water - or make cool pets - and so theoretically it's possible.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

All true, lal: I was just saying that *Hobbit* beer was in all probability very like what the goodfolk of Sarehole quaffed ca. 1900.

[alatar]

I know that this is off-topic, not being about plants and all, but I just wanted to finish off my thoughts about genetically engineering glowing trees (note that we would want the leaves to glow as the bark is like dead skin). You can see here (http://www.glofish.com/default.asp) how some 'mad' scientists are using glowing genes to make fish that detect clean water - or make cool pets - and so theoretically it's possible.
And the madness continues. Seems that some scientists have created cats that express proteins that glow red under UV light, as seen here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316592,00.html). Not exactly sure why, but I suspect that it has something to do with the possibility of Sauron returning, as His Ring actually is a cat (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=412059#post412059).

What other explanation even makes sense?

[Bêthberry]

And the madness continues. Seems that some scientists have created cats that express proteins that glow red under UV light, as seen here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316592,00.html). Not exactly sure why, but I suspect that it has something to do with the possibility of Sauron returning, as His Ring actually is a cat (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=412059#post412059).

What other explanation even makes sense?

Sounds like the sort of market development strategy underwritten by Noma (http://www.noma.co.uk/n/index.html) or by Hallmark Decorations (http://www.hookedonhallmark.com/2002-Christmas-Tree-With-Decorations_p_0-6192.html).

Everyone knows cats have a predilection for exploring Christmas trees. I think these companies are simply exploring ways they could capitalize on this interest by turning cats into lit up tree ornaments themselves. Perhaps there could also be some sort of throwback to the light of the Two Trees being generated by the static electricity of cat hair.

Of course, if you want to associate Sauron with such companies . . .

[alatar]

Of course, if you want to associate Sauron with such companies . . .
Santa, Sauron - made that connection elsewhere, and all because of cats. ;) And the genetic engineering is just to help people avoid the messiness from dyeing the cat's hair red.

Is the fireweed noted by the Hobbits journeying through the old forest a relative of Butterfly milkweed (http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/prairie/plantx/btf_milkweedx.htm) (Asclepias tuberosa) ?

There's another native plant for which I cannot find the name that has orange leaves in the fall that reminds me of the fireweed. As kids we used the dust on the leaves to paint our skin orange (not recommended, as it's probably poisonous to normal humans).

[Laurinquë]

Hmmm... this is a very interesting and original thread, I wish I knew more about the plants of Middle Earth so I could say something witty here, but as of now I just want to say that you guys are amazing to know so much about the plants of Middle Earth. :D

[zxcvbn]

This one's from the movies so I suppose it doesn't belong here, but Brian Sibley's The Lord of the Rings - The Making of the Movie Trilogy had an illustration of a herb called 'Autumn Crocus' used for treating gout. It was created as a prop for the Houses of Healing scene(gotta love the detail in those films).

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie/herbal_small.jpg

You can read the writing and its translation here.
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_otherinscr.htm#herbal

[Alfirin]

Not that anyone today would want to use autumn crocus on themselves, it's a powerful carcinogen. It is however beloved by plant breeders as it's where we get colchecine; the odd chemical that, when dabbed on flowers, can muck-up the division of the gametes and create ones which are polyploid (having more than 2 copies of each chomosome). If this number is odd (3n, 5n [n is the sybol for the number of copies of a chromosome an organism has. most complex lifeforms are 2n and thier gametes {sperm and eggs} are 1n] etc.) this tends to result in sterile plants which will produce seedless fruits (this is where seedless watermelons, as well as some kinds of seedless grape, come from). Even usually result in fetile but bigger fruited versions (commercial stawberries are usually hexaploid) Wheat is sorta an octoploid but sorta not. They was it works (as I was taught) was this.
The oldest wild wheat is called eikorn. Eikorn can naturally from time to time become a tetraploid (4n) called emmer. Emmer was the kind of wheat the Greeks and Romans were using. At some point a plant called goat grass managed to cross with an Emmer and produce the grain we call spelt. Spelt later crossed with other grasses to form modern wheat (8n). This last cross appprently happed many times and created many sorts of wheat. Bread wheat ( Triticum sativum var. sativum [/I) is high in gluten and is therefore good form making leavened things. Durum or hard wheat ([I]var. durum) is used for semolina and pasta (it s is also the whate you sometimes see ears of in floral arraghments since it has the steroypical "ear of wheat" shape with the boxy long-bearded head and bread wheat usally doesn't) other more obsucre crosses yeild such things as Poulard wheat (var. polonicum ), which looks more like a bunch of of oats than a wheat ear, club wheat (var. compatum ) which has a tiny compressed beadless head (if you've ever seen Quaking grass basicaly one of its seed heads blown up 10x and mounted singly on a stalk upright) and shot wheat (var. sphaerococcum ) which as very rounded grains and is only still grown in a tiny region in northwest India.

By the way the plant below the crocus in the picture is common tansy (Tagetes Vulgare [the traslation left out the final "e"]) also used tradinally as a cure for joint problems, as well as a flavoring agent and dye.

Though of herbs actually brings up a interesting point. In "Of herbs and stewed rabbit" Sam orders Gollum to find him sage, thyme and bay leaves to stew the conies with. Now I would understand if there was wild thyme and sage growing around (though not why Sam assumes Gollum would know what they looked like) but bay would be lot more unsual to find. Bay laurel requires a subtropical or at least Medditerean climate to grow well. Ithillien would have to be a fairly warm country to expect to find bays there (unless something in mordors blight has raised the temperature a lot.) To the UK poster does bay laurel grow in England?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Hmmm... this is a very interesting and original thread, I wish I knew more about the plants of Middle Earth so I could say something witty here, but as of now I just want to say that you guys are amazing to know so much about the plants of Middle Earth. :D
Oh, Robi. Don't be sad, and you thought I knew so much!:D

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Now I would understand if there was wild thyme and sage growing around (though not why Sam assumes Gollum would know what they looked like) but bay would be lot more unsual to find. Bay laurel requires a subtropical or at least Mediterean climate to grow well. Ithillien would have to be a fairly warm country to expect to find bays there

In fact a Mediterranean climate was exactly what Tolkien intended; His description of Ithilien includes not only such plants as bay laurel, but also tamarisk and terebinth. Indeed, if you take Hobbiton to be at the latitude of Oxford, then Osgiliath is roughly at that of Tuscany (as he pointed out himself). After a vacation in Italy he wrote a letter referring to his return from Gondor!

[Alfirin]

I was reading another post and much talk was made of longbows. This leads me to a new question to post does Middle Earth contain yew trees? We know that it has beeches, ashes, willows, oaks, hollys etc. along with a lot of trees now long gone (mallorn, lebethron, etc.) But the question is can one assume that all trees native to Great Britan and europe in or times were present in Middle earth whether mentioned (implcitly or not), or are there actually trees we have that they didn't?

[Alfirin]

I know this thread is postively ancient by now, but I realized that there was one more thing to say with regards to my Aethelas arguments. In the time since I wrote it, I have discovered that there are mints with very long, grass like leaves. The one that really springs to mind (mostly becuse I grew it once) is Habek Mint Mentha longifolia (In England I believe it is called horsemint). I'm not saying this is Athelas but at least it does sew up that particular loophole.

[Bêthberry]

I was reading another post and much talk was made of longbows. This leads me to a new question to post does Middle Earth contain yew trees? We know that it has beeches, ashes, willows, oaks, hollys etc. along with a lot of trees now long gone (mallorn, lebethron, etc.) But the question is can one assume that all trees native to Great Britan and europe in or times were present in Middle earth whether mentioned (implcitly or not), or are there actually trees we have that they didn't?

Yews are named directly in the poem "Kortirion Among the Trees", from "Cottage of Lost Play", BoLT 1.

[Galin]

Add, just for another example...

to bend whose bow, Balthronding named,
that the black yewtree once bore of yore

From the Lay of the Children of Hurin

[Alfirin]

Yes I found out about the yews in the time between when I wrote the question and now. I probably should have mentioned that.

[Selmo]

Is the fireweed noted by the Hobbits journeying through the old forest a relative of Butterfly milkweed (http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/prairie/plantx/btf_milkweedx.htm) (Asclepias tuberosa) ?


The Hobbits' fireweed is almost certainly to be Rosebay Willowherb, Chamaenerion angustifolium, also known in the UK as fireweed and sparkweed. Tolkien would have been very familliar with it.

Like the fireweed in the Old Forrest, rosebay willowherb rapidly colonises disturbed ground, particularly favouring cleared woodland where wood has been burned. It became something of a UK national symbol of defiance because of the way in which it quickly covered areas blasted by German bombs in 1941.
.

[Alfirin]

Sorry to ressurect this truly Ancient thread again. But a thought just ocurred to me, I think I may have finally figured out a candidate for Yavannamire (albiet one that Tolkein would never have though of). The genus Santalum divides into two major branches. On one side are the Indian Santalums which tend to have fragrant leaves bark and wood, of which the most famous is Santalum album (sandalwood). On the other are the Australian Santalums which often have large and tasty fruit (which is red), of which the most familiar would be Santalum acuminatum (Quandong). It occurs to me that, if you imagined a tree that was in the middle of these two (so that it had the fragrance qualities of the Indian Branch of the Genus, and the fruit qualities of the Australian) and added on a few common to 1st age middle earth tree traits, like enhanced height (sandalwoods in our world are really more of shrubs than trees and when they are trees are pretty short) and a fertility in Erresea and Nisimaldar that allowed them to live independantly (real sandalwoods are actually parasite trees) youd get something pretty close to Yavannamire.

[Faramir Jones]

Alfirin, you began a thread I found very nice indeed, despite not being a gardener, although many of my family are gardeners.

William Cloud Hicklin is right in terms of the comparison of Ithilien to Tuscany:

If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy. (Letters, Letter 294, p. 376.)

There is a lovely description of the fauna of Ithilien ('the garden of Gondor') here:

All about them were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress, and other kinds unknown in the Shire, with wide glades among them; and everywhere there was a wealth of sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs.
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Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and majorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. The grots and rocky walls were already starred with saxifrages and stonecrops. Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin.
(The Lord of the Rings, Book 4, Chapter IV: Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit.)

:)