High Elves and the Balrogs

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!). Why is this? Were the maia that joined Morgoth extremely weak that a high elf can slay them? I don't understand because Balrogs are great spellcasters and just totally on a different level. Would this mean that someone like Galadriel could take on that Balrog in Moria even without Nenya? 'Cause it would make sense since she's a high elf and the greatest next to Feanor. And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

[Raynor]

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!).
Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs.
And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?
Myths Transformed estimates that they would be reduced to impotence (or at least those that practiced procreation).
In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

[Galin]

Also, Ecthelion was not (likely) to slay three Balrogs in my opinion.

Tolkien seemed to be thinking of reducing the number of Balrogs to at most seven. The earlier numbers of The Book of Lost Tales (and specific numbers killed therein) refer to an earlier version of Balrogs.

High numbers persisted even in the texts of the early 1950s. The timing according to Christopher Tolkien (despite that he can't be certain about it) seems to be: Tolkien wrote Annals of Aman (AAm) and Grey Annals (GA) at about the same time, early 1950's (lots of Balrogs in both). JRRT expresses in a later letter that he intends to get copies made of copyable material and has copies made by a typist, of AAm, LQS, GA (with carbon copies), dating about 1958. He makes a marginal note on a typescript of AAm -- he revises 'host' of Balrogs and explains the reduced numbers in the note.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs
Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

[Morthoron]

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

The physical manifestation of a Balrog could obviously sustain damage (Gandalf uses the word 'smote' as in strike when speaking of how he defeated Durin's Bane); therefore, it is entirely possible for an Elf of Ecthelion's stature to defeat a Balrog, or more than one given favorable circumstances. Consider also that Ecthelion was an exceptional Noldo of Valinor in full flower of youth, whereas Gandalf, even as a Maia, was constrained in the mortal body of an old man (however vigorous). Remember as well that Morgoth himself was wounded badly by Fingolfin, and Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated Sauron, and one would have to admit that Morgoth and Sauron were indeed more powerful than a Balrog.

[Raynor]

When they realised they are facing a balrog, Gandalf deplored that he was already weary, from the fight with the orcs and his contest of magic at the door of the Mazarbul Chamber.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

[Hammerhand]

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

aye thats a solid point, but what about Rog in the fall of Gondolin, apparently he and his fellows defeated a few of them there... it doesn't specify that they died via the Balrog.

I never really dwelled on the fact that all the key charcters that fought them died - Glorfindel died in a similar circumstance to Gandalf, in that he was dragged down. Ecthelion was already mortally wounded when he took on Gothmog, and died in the fountain with him - Nearly brought a tear to my eye reading that for the first time!

[Galin]

The Fall of Gondolin from The Book of Lost Tales concerns the early version of Balrogs.

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

If there was to be no more than seven then the Balrogs arguably slain by Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf count for three. And probably some were to be slain in the War of Wrath.

[Boromir88]

Galin, already mentioned this, lets not mix two different periods of time here where Tolkien began altering and changing his Balrogs.

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs)~Gorthaur
I think this is where the 'unbelievability' is coming from. As when Tolkien first started writing about his Balrogs, they were an entire race of their own. There were 'armies' and 'hosts' of Balrogs and they were much weaker than what the Tolkien's 'final' Balrogs became.

I don't know when Tolkien decided to switch things around, but eventually he made the Balrogs corrupted Maiar and as Galin remarks reduces their number down to at the very most...seven (HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed).

So, the time you are talking about when Ecthelion slew 3 of them, was an earlier time when Tolkien had the idea that the Balrogs were an entire race of their own (not Maiar) and therefor far less powerful. That might be where part of the 'unbelievability' is coming from, because I agree that it would be unbelievable for any elf to slay 3 Maiar! ;)

However, it's not so unbelievable that an Elf could take down a Balrog. Tolkien wrote a story where the lines of 'power' always mix and mingle together and there is no clear 'hierarchy' of who is more powerful. And we have to remember when we generally say that 'Elves are more powerful than Men' that doesn't mean we can assume that every elf is more powerful than every man. Just as I dont think one can assume every Maiar is equal in power, and every Balrog was equal in power. Just keep that in mind too, we're not dealing with a strict, rigid 'hierarchy of power,' but one that is just all meshed together. That is why Elves end up slaying Maiar, and Hobbits end up doing serious damage to a giant kick butt spider...etc.

Lets also not forget that Ecthelion and Glorfindel are extremely powerful Elves in their own right. They were Noldor Elven Lords, not your simple ordinary elf. They had also both seen the light of the two trees, and any elf who did, we are told grew in power.

Now if a Man slew a Balrog (even a 'great man' such as Turin) I would say that is 'unbelievable.' As it appears to take more than being a skilled and powerful fighter to slay a Balrog. Gandalf was locked in a 10 day battle with Durin's Bane and there was more than two foes who were crossing swords (or in this case one with a whip and the other with a sword):
'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark...'

'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him...'
and...
'Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough?'
(All quotes come from The White Rider).

This was a 10-day struggle amongst two Maiar. And as Gandalf says to the Fellowship 'This is a beyond any of you.' (Aragorn and Boromir are no chumps when it comes to 'fighters' amongst mortals). Gandalf was already weary, however in this case he could use his full Maiar powers. Gandalf was just restricted from showing his true form/powers when there were Elves and Men around...well here he's battling a Balrog under and on top of mountains. There is no one around to see it, and as I think is clear from Gandalf's description, he let loose his Maiar abilities in this great 'Battle of the Peak.'

I guess the bottomline here I'm trying to get at, is it's not so unbelievable for some of the most powerful Elves around (Glorfindel and Ecthelion) to slay a Balrog...as these two chaps were right up there in that 'greatest elf' category. However, if a mortal slew a balrog, than I would say that is rather unbelievable, because I think it takes a certain power that mortals don't possess. :)

[obloquy]

Only three Balrogs need to exist: Durin's Bane, Gothmog, and Glorfindel's Bane. These are the three that receive solid canonicity by being included in writings that Tolkien himself saw published. Tolkien reduced their early multitude, as has been mentioned, and indicates that he might have removed all but just these three principals ("3 or at most 7"). This adjustment ought to be seen as an implemented change, since none of the texts that conflict with it were ever published by Tolkien himself, and were, per his written intention, obsolete with particular regard to balrog numbers. The Fall of Gondolin has almost no bearing on balrog discussion.

Edit: it occurs to me that Gothmog may not have had his canonicity cemented as the other two, but I don't have time right now to check. In any case, there's no indication that Tolkien intended Gothmog's fate to change.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

[Hammerhand]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

She was high in magic.. but i don't know what Galadriel would have been like with a blade :P And they were all fought with weapons i believe

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

Ok so the later Balrogs were of a different breed perhaps, i know nobody has said it, but would that make Gothmog less powerful than Durins Bane? High Captain as he was, he was surely one of the first Balrogs...or is it that the other Balrogs of the time were not Maiar? or maybe that they were just not as powerful? I don't know, and alot of you chaps have more knowledge than i on this.

On Rog, he was reputed in the book to be the "strongest" of the Lords of Noldor in Gondolin, strong in strength? or magic? I think it is possible to assume strength, seeing as he isn't really a key player in Middle Earths history. Yet, though he alone might not have slain a Balrog, his people the "Hammer of Wrath", a medley of the most skilled Noldor were responsible for multiple Balrog casualties.

This is confusing me!

We have Fingon fending off one, and then being defeated by the two. Feanor who held his ground against several until he was overcome. Other counts of High Elves of the first degree being slain. Yet others were successful against one alone; Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf.

To reiterate Fingolfin's achievements... he eternally wounded Morgoth, one of the most powerful Valar. So it is possible to say that by fighting capabilities, one can impair or defeat a Maiar... maybe even a Valar if they're that hardcore? Taking into consideration Fingolfin's status, Noldorin King of immense fighting skill (ranked above Feanor in valour) and undoubtedley in magic also.

The slaying of Sauron, by Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur.. though he didn't actually completely decease... it's possible to admit he was defeated...

I remain inquisitive on the subject and eagerly await the shedding of light from other members!

[Boromir88]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?~Gorthaur
Well it's not so much that Galadriel would not fear a Balrog (I think even Gandalf displayed fear towards Durin's Bane). As no matter how powerful you are, a Balrog is a tough nut to crack and not a foe anyone would look forward to facing.

But, if you are asking would Galadriel be able to slay a Balrog, I'd say she's got a pretty good shot. As Galadriel is tough in her own regards...not just 'magically' but also as far as fighting abilities go too:
'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
and...
'Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in the defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.'~ibid
So, I would say Galadriel was someone who also knew how to use a sword. Giving her a 'pretty good shot' in my opinion. :)

[obloquy]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

[Hammerhand]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.:cool:

[Hammerhand]

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.:cool:

So we're all in agreement that no she-elf could possibly threaten a Balrog? :P lol
She'd probably be late for the duel anyway!

lol, well i suppose there would be a different concept to fighting to what we know with the addition of "magic" and species. No average human woman has ever been given any recognition, which can only mean that Elvish women were as competant as the men.. or close to, as regards physical exertion. Therefore, saying Galadriel was as we have defined her, i see no reason why she wouldn't be able to defend herself aptly - i just find it hard to believe, mainly because of the real world... and because she isn't depicted so much as a fighter, but more of a wise and majestic speciman :)

[obloquy]

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

[Boromir88]

Hammerhand, you are right that Galadriel isn't shown to be a fighter, especially by the Third Age. But I think the statement from UT of her being a match for both 'loremasters and athletes of the Eldar' goes to show that not only does she have 'mental toughness' but she is also physically strong.

Also take into consideration this...
Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age
Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself. Galadriel may not be imagined as much of a fighter (since there isn't much said about her actually 'fighting.') But she was an extremely powerful Elf (the most powerful of the Third Age and one of the greatest period). So, she just wasn't some wise lady that gave out gifts and read people's thoughts. ;)

[Raynor]

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself.
Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

I agree. Nevertheless, that does not undermine what Boro said about Galadriel. She was surely capable and powerful - in whatever means you think. I also think no one contested this. I think the only problem we have with her is that it's hard to imagine her with a sword (and in armor???) fighting against, let's say, even Fëanor's hordes at Alqualondë (hmm... was that even canonical? I think this is but one of the versions in UT, from whose no one knows which one to choose as granted...) Though, as I said, we have evidence that she was mighty even in that, as Boro said, so it's our limited imagination in which the problem lies.

[Boromir88]

Well Raynor, I think Nenya is part of 'that power' that dwells in Lorien. As the Elven Rings were made to sustain and protect against the 'weariness of time.' But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.

[Hammerhand]

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

No need to be offensive mate - don't forget Galadriel isn't actually real. My inability to picture Galadrial as a warrior comes from todays image as a woman not being a fighter, they still don't let women into the infantry... Also, never to my knowledge, which isn't law, has Galadriel ever fought an enemy with a lance in her hand, so to speak. I don't doubt her capability in mind, as we have already seen and heard from various people and book references. That is where i struggle to see Galadriel as a warrior.

To say i'm folly i think is quite rude, i shall refrain from retaliating, i didn't come here for an argument, i prefer debate.

[Raynor]

But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.
I agree. However, I doubt that Galadriel "alone" would come close to the same results if she didn't have her ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age The fact that Celeborn led the host of Lorien while Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur has always suggested to me that she was wielding 'magic', while Celeborn led the physical assault.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The fact that Celeborn led the host of Lorien while Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur has always suggested to me that she was wielding 'magic', while Celeborn led the physical assault.
Eexactly. Nevertheless, it's a wonderful demonstration of her power...

But let's not forget our main topic. I think, as much as Galadrielist I am, you can see her not expressing any fear of the balrog of Moria when she hears the news (actually, I sort of suspect her of knowing more than she says, and so maybe even knowing about the presence of the balrog), quite differently from Celeborn, for whom it's not only a new information, but also a thing that scares him, or at least that's how I always took it.
"Alas!" said Celeborn. "We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria."

[Morthoron]

In regard to Galadriel throwing down the walls and laying bare the pits of Dol Guldur, this is more extraordinary in the fact that she accomplished the feat after the One Ring was destroyed; thus, I would think the power that demolished Dol Guldur was innate and not necessarily due to her wielding the ring Nenya, whose power would have waned after the One Ring's destruction.

[Boromir88]

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.

Just as I would argue the benefit of Gandalf bearing Narya was not in giving him extra power to fight the Balrog, but assisting him in his 'weariness,' exactly as Cirdan said the Ring was for:
'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Exactly. Nenya was in the first place the thing that caused Lórien not to wither; and as Sam felt it:

Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning. It's wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there's any magic about, it's right down deep, where I can't lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.
(...)
Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away.
It was also what kept its borders safe - I'd also think that for example the white mist that covered Eorl's ride to keep them secret and safe from Dol Guldur was the work of the Ring.
(...) but other powers also were at work. For when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it, and then he rode on within sight of Anduin. Many of the riders turned their eyes thither, half in fear and half in hope to glimpse from afar the shimmer of the Dwimordene, the perilous land that in legends of their people was said to shine like gold in the springtime. But now it seemed shrouded in a gleaming mist and to their dismay the mist passed over the river and flowed over the land before them.
Eorl did not halt. "Ride on!" he commanded. "There is no other way to take. After so long a road shall we be held back from battle by a river-mist?"
As they drew nearer they saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur, and soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily; but under its canopy all things were lit with a clear and shadowless light, while to left and right they were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy.
"The Lady of the Golden Wood is on our side, it seems ,” said Borondir.
But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings, as Elrond says to Glóin:
[The Three] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.
Where is the evidence of Tolkien stating this? It's hard to believe because he'd always seem to downplay Galadriel while he augments much of Elrond's power.

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.
But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings
Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin. Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...). Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right? For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien? And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

[Raynor]

I believe obloquy is referring to HoME XII:
Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.
...
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.*
...
* Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

[obloquy]

Yes, thanks Raynor. The quote obviously refers to a time before the exodus of the Noldor (Feanor and Galadriel were still "of Valinor"), so we know that it even includes the Vanyar. The wording leaves room--possibly but not necessarily--for Elwe somewhere below Luthien. Besides him, I can think of no other candidates in Beleriand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin.
If you read what I wrote, then I was saying that particularly this one was probably coming from the Ring's power.
Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...).
If you are suggesting "Finrod was a loser", then I have to strongly disagree. His contest with Sauron was not some stupid loss, quite the contrary, I believe we can sort of compare it to Fingolfin vs. Morgoth. Or Gandalf vs. Balrog when he was closing the door to Chamber of Mazarbul. And I doubt you would call Fingolfin a loser.
Nevertheless, what you said, for example the "reading mind" thing, does not need to have, I think, anything in common with the Ring itself. Quite the contrary, I think it's exactly the example of how powerful she was. After all, Galadriel is mentioned as the most powerful in mind right after Fëanor, and that's exactly what you see here. And yes, Finrod was therefore probably not as powerful as her - as all the Elves (but he was not a loser).


Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right?
Just one note before start - Galadriel, as neither of the Elf lords, was not able to use the power of the Ring openly. Just rhetorics, I know - but let's not confuse it.

Okay. Now to the main point. What the Three do I already mentioned in the post before where I quoted Elrond, and I'm not going to return to it, it's all there. Just your claim now does not in any way contest it. The words "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" mean no more and no less that the Rings give less power when a less powerful person wields them, greater power when a more powerful person wields them. Less powerful person can make a mosquito flee away from him, more powerful person can stop the Ringwraith. But it does not, as you deduce, based with no evidence, enhance the innate strength of their bearers. Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right - that's okay. But these powers are for making, healing... whatever. Nothing about boosting own powers.

For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien?
Lórien is something else than Rivendell because a different person is it's - let's say, ruler. But surely you don't say that Rivendell didn't have its own atmosphere? It had, just a different one. I don't actually understand what are you going to say with this. The only difference could therefore stem from the Ringbearers' attitudes and personal aims. If for example a Balrog had an Elven Ring and wanted to use it to preserve his own realm, it would have also a different atmosphere: let's say burning fires and everlasting darkness. If the Witch-King did something like this, his realm would have been a moonlit freezing place full of fear. The same it is with the Rivendell-Lórien difference.

And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.
I believe that surely she would be able to face the balrog, but because of her own strength in battle (whether physical or spiritual), Nenya has nothing to do with it. Galadriel could shroud Lórien in mist with Nenya to cover it from the Balrog descending from the mountains, but in battle, the Ring won't help her much. It was made for understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained - and surely nothing of that could be of any use in a duel.

[Bêthberry]

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!). Why is this? Were the maia that joined Morgoth extremely weak that a high elf can slay them? I don't understand because Balrogs are great spellcasters and just totally on a different level. Would this mean that someone like Galadriel could take on that Balrog in Moria even without Nenya? 'Cause it would make sense since she's a high elf and the greatest next to Feanor. And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

Perhaps wings weakened them, a physiological defect. After all, the energy involved in flapping them and flying must deflect from the energy/power available to produce fire and bat around arms.

[Lalaith]

No average human woman has ever been given any recognition
Hmm...I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you do, then let me say three words to you....Joan of Arc. Led a national army before she was seventeen...good enough?

Anyway, I wonder if part of the problem in these discussions isn't that they are taking place among people who are used to the logic of computer games. This weapon plus that armour plus so many power points and that experience level gives you strength to defeat this monster....
I'm not sure how useful this very logical, gaming-type viewpoint is to understanding Tolkien's world. It was a literary creation, which as many here have pointed out, underwent many changes over the years. So one minute you can have a High Elf defeating a Balrog in just a short battle, and in another, a mighty maia like Gandalf take a week to defeat one in underground combat.
Why - because it makes a good story, I suppose, and Tolkien was a storyteller.

But that is not to say that Tolkien's power hierarchies are not intriguing. How, I always wondered, did a mere Maia like Melian create a stronghold that could keep out Melkor, mightiest of the Valar? Because Tolkien willed it so, is the obvious answer, but still, it did always puzzle me....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyway, I wonder if part of the problem in these discussions isn't that they are taking place among people who are used to the logic of computer games. This weapon plus that armour plus so many power points and that experience level gives you strength to defeat this monster....
I'm not sure how useful this very logical, gaming-type viewpoint is to understanding Tolkien's world. It was a literary creation, which as many here have pointed out, underwent many changes over the years. So one minute you can have a High Elf defeating a Balrog in just a short battle, and in another, a mighty maia like Gandalf take a week to defeat one in underground combat.

I thought about that too, though I think in this discussion it was not as evident from the start, so I didn't bring it up. When you look up, unless you yourself get dragged down in thinking in these "level lines", the question is well posed: the Balrogs are something - and that is clear enough from the Legendarium - completely qualitatively different from the Elves, they are Maiar, Ainur. This is evident and everyone who thinks about someone who was with Eru performing on the Music can be somehow puzzled about all this. I think it's about realizing the different story changes, as you said, and also - very importantly, I think - realizing what the "coming to flesh" in Arda means: that as they are once there, you are technically as capable of slaying a Balrog as a human (no high "lives" here - though he probably is tougher than common man, there are mainly other things that prevent you from killing him). I saw the "game-thinking" problem emerging in many different threads, but particularly in this case I think our problems lie somewhere else. Good you brought it up, though, as it allows people to realize if they are thinking like that, preventing possible misunderstandings.

[Lalaith]

realizing what the "coming to flesh" in Arda means:
Yes, absolutely, I think that's a very interesting point. Did Gandalf's corporeal form, as an old man, lay "heavier" on him than Melian's, do you think, despite the fact that she bore a child while a physical, Middle-Earth presence?
The Valar and the Maia took physical forms while in Valinor, also. Were these forms somehow different to those they took when not there? Is there anything in HoME about this?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, absolutely, I think that's a very interesting point. Did Gandalf's corporeal form, as an old man, lay "heavier" on him than Melian's, do you think, despite the fact that she bore a child while a physical, Middle-Earth presence?

Well, I am not a female, so I cannot judge ;) whether it's more exhausting for the body to give a birth to a child or not to, but be much more aged.

Nevertheless, Melian, I believe, had her "Valinorean" form on her (cf. below) when she met Elwë(is this where your train of thoughts has been going?), so maybe here is the answer to what you wondered about her powers like the Girdle and so on. Also, she was not intentionally bound by the body - that was her own body as she chose it (unlike the Istari, who were given it to reduce their own powers not to contest Sauron by force) or even the Balrogs, who were in fact "forced to hold Melkor's standards", so to say.

The Valar and the Maia took physical forms while in Valinor, also. Were these forms somehow different to those they took when not there? Is there anything in HoME about this?

As I foreshadowed earlier, I believe that surely they were different; as mentioned above at least with the Istari who took the forms of old men for their journey to Middle-Earth, but surely were not like that back there. The difference would be that probably mostly, in ME the Maiar were limited in their forms - in Valinor they could take on whatever form they wish (the one they chose when coming down to the world). The "dark" Maiar, like the Balrogs, or even Sauron later, as it is well known after some time lost their ability to change their forms and literally degraded as "imprisoned" in the flesh.

I'm not much of a HoME-runner, so to say, but considering the appearance in Valinor, at least I remember in UT Gandalf (Olórin) is mentioned:
And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council
and in the Silmarillion, resp. Valaquenta:
But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
(emhasise mine) Taking in mind the context of the latter, I'd say the form of Elf refers to Olórin during his stay at Valinor, and not Middle-Earth. The interesting thing is that he was "clad in grey", still, on both sides of the Sea. I'd also like to see what happened when he returned at the end of the Third Age: if he kept his form of Gandalf the White, or changed into something else (Olórin the Gray, Olórin the White...).

[Raynor]

Nevertheless, Melian, I believe, had her "Valinorean" form on her (cf. below) when she met Elwë
I doubt she retained her cloak-like body after felling in love with Thingol. In Myths Transformed, it is said:
...by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.
However, more to the point:
For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwe Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Iluvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda.
I'd also like to see what happened when he returned at the end of the Third Age: if he kept his form of Gandalf the White, or changed into something else (Olórin the Gray, Olórin the White...).
I don't think he had any reason to keep his embodied, severely limiting form, other than sentimental reasons :D

[obloquy]

I don't think he had any reason to keep his embodied, severely limiting form, other than sentimental reasons
The Valar may have been able to restore Olorin, but it's likely that he had many years of recuperation in Aman ahead of him after separating from his corporeal form. He may not have had much reason to remain incarnate, but the return to his natural form was no small thing.

[Hammerhand]

Hmm...I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you do, then let me say three words to you....Joan of Arc. Led a national army before she was seventeen...good enough?

I think it was fairly obvious i was refering to Tolkien's work actually... off the top of my head only Eowyn and Morwen were ever depicted in a 'powerful' role - that is ofcourse in reference to humans, there are quite a few Elvish women depicted in such a light also.

Off topic, Joan of Arc only co-led the army i think you'll find with a certain Duke. Furthermore she was burned at the stake for heresy before she managed to finalise her aims - that said, she is an extraordinary example of female leadership, being so young and also, being a woman.

[Morthoron]

I think it was fairly obvious i was refering to Tolkien's work actually... off the top of my head only Eowyn and Morwen were ever depicted in a 'powerful' role - that is ofcourse in reference to humans, there are quite a few Elvish women depicted in such a light also.

Here's another: Haleth of the Haladin was a woman considered the equal of any man in battle and led her people courageously.

Off topic, Joan of Arc only co-led the army i think you'll find with a certain Duke. Furthermore she was burned at the stake for heresy before she managed to finalise her aims - that said, she is an extraordinary example of female leadership, being so young and also, being a woman.

She did complete her primary aim, the reversal of France's fortunes in the 100 Year's War and almost single-handedly had Charles VII crowned king of France at Rheims. Without her vision and valor, the ineffectual Armagnacs would have eventually crumbled against the English/Burgundian alliance. As far as her heresy trial, it was a political sham, a mockery of justice that circumvented numerous ecclesiastical court procedures. The heresy charges were nullified by Pope Calixtus a mere 25 years after her death (astounding in the fact that the Catholic Church usually takes centuries to overturn previous rulings -- as in the case of Galileo).

[Hammerhand]

She did complete her primary aim, the reversal of France's fortunes in the 100 Year's War and almost single-handedly had Charles VII crowned king of France at Rheims. Without her vision and valor, the ineffectual Armagnacs would have eventually crumbled against the English/Burgundian alliance. As far as her heresy trial, it was a political sham, a mockery of justice that circumvented numerous ecclesiastical court procedures. The heresy charges were nullified by Pope Calixtus a mere 25 years after her death (astounding in the fact that the Catholic Church usually takes centuries to overturn previous rulings -- as in the case of Galileo).

You just proved what i said lol... almost being a key-word. Alot of what Joan of Arc achieved is hypothetically speaking, "would have" and so on. She did not achieve everything that she set out to do. I'm not trying to make her appear weaker because she is a woman, i'm just trying to prove a point. She was never granted full military control, she had to confer with the Duke of [insert] before any major decisions were made.

She was burned at the stake, whether it was anulled or not, the "mockery" was successful and the mighty Joan of Arc was made a martyr... get over it.

[obloquy]

If I had posted either of the two previous responses it would have been deleted.

[Hammerhand]

If I had posted either of the two previous responses it would have been deleted.

Just clearing up a misunderstanding mate :)

[Morthoron]

You just proved what i said lol... almost being a key-word. Alot of what Joan of Arc achieved is hypothetically speaking, "would have" and so on. She did not achieve everything that she set out to do. I'm not trying to make her appear weaker because she is a woman, i'm just trying to prove a point. She was never granted full military control, she had to confer with the Duke of [insert] before any major decisions were made.

She was burned at the stake, whether it was anulled or not, the "mockery" was successful and the mighty Joan of Arc was made a martyr... get over it.

Not wishing to go too off-topic here, but please reread what I said. I stated "She did complete her primary aim, the reversal of France's fortunes in the 100 Year's War and almost single-handedly had Charles VII crowned king of France at Rheims." The 'almost' you are referring to does not mitigate her achievement. She did get Charles crowned king, which was her aim, and she did so 'almost' single-handedly (incredible for a teenage girl of the era).

As far as conferring with Duc de Alençon, yes she did, what of it? She eventually became co-commander of an army with him. She also had many heated arguments with Dunois of Orleans over tactics. Had she not prevailed with her strategy, Dunois was ready to retreat before the taking of les Tournelles and the raising of the siege of Orleans would have failed. She completed in nine days what the French army did not do in five months. Bluntly, the French achieved victory because of her choice of tactics over the established leadership's cautious and defeatist attitudes. The raising of the siege of Orleans marked the turning point in the Hundred Year's War. There are no hypotheticals about it.

As far as 'getting over it', please watch your tone. I would hate to see this thread locked because of unnecessary attitude.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Back to Tolkien, please.

[Hammerhand]

Not wishing to go too off-topic here, but please reread what I said. I stated "She did complete her primary aim, the reversal of France's fortunes in the 100 Year's War and almost single-handedly had Charles VII crowned king of France at Rheims." The 'almost' you are referring to does not mitigate her achievement. She did get Charles crowned king, which was her aim, and she did so 'almost' single-handedly (incredible for a teenage girl of the era).

As far as conferring with Duc de Alençon, yes she did, what of it? She eventually became co-commander of an army with him. She also had many heated arguments with Dunois of Orleans over tactics. Had she not prevailed with her strategy, Dunois was ready to retreat before the taking of les Tournelles and the raising of the siege of Orleans would have failed. She completed in nine days what the French army did not do in five months. Bluntly, the French achieved victory because of her choice of tactics over the established leadership's cautious and defeatist attitudes. The raising of the siege of Orleans marked the turning point in the Hundred Year's War. There are no hypotheticals about it.

As far as 'getting over it', please watch your tone. I would hate to see this thread locked because of unnecessary attitude.

Please do not talk to me in such a condescending tone - i actually feel quite annoyed now. Half of the information and debate gathered here is without cause, i havn't commented on Joan of Arc's bad military tactics because i think they were quite excellent - so why would you bring it up like i've disputed it? My only argument against Joan of Arc was that she is given recognition as the sole force that changed the fate of the French Monarchy and decisively won the French victories in the 100 Years War - when in fact she was in no way working alone, she depended on the support of others, being a teenage girl what would you expect?

Actually, alot of the issues concerning Joan of Arc are hypothetically speaking, check your sources again. Because certain things were achieved after her death that she fought for, it does not mean that she alone made it happen.

So i'll beg you again to refrain from the pretentious statements and the argument altogether, i've had my say, as have you - Joan of Arc isn't particularly relevant so i'll carry on with the thread now.

I think it is all very well saying Galadriel could defeat a Balrog by herself, what with the amount of quotations supporting her being the "Greatest" of the Noldor behind Feanor, but whenever a mortal has faced a Balrog, it has been a weapon-in-hand job - Interestingly with Olórin which i now feel compelled to read again, he appears to resume his former shape and do a "power" battle with Durin's Bane. Is it possible to say that Galadriel could equal the Maiar's efforts in power? I'm not sure. I still remain confident that Galadriel would not best a Balrog with a blade, the quotations given just don't define her as a warrior,we have ones of her "greatness" which i believe refer to her mind, and ones of her "athletic ability" and so forth, i could be wrong, but Galadriel only wielded a blade on the odd occasion over the course of thousands of years.

Compare her to Fingolfin, Ecthelion or Glorfindel, each are continuously reputed with their battle skill. Galadriel is in reference to her beauty and mind. I can't see it myself, but their is some evidence there to suggest her military capability, it is just not as clear as with other characters - and so it leads to what we are all doing now, speculating.

Besides, i feel sorry for Celeborn if Galadriel had the power to crush a Balrog :P

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Please keep personal comments out of public posts. Any points on which two members conflict should be resolved in private messages. Thank you!

[obloquy]

I don't think anyone said she could "crush" a Balrog.

Is it possible to say that Galadriel could equal the Maiar's efforts in power?Yes, in fact. We have a handy example in Glorfindel, whose duel with a Balrog went much the same as Gandalf's did. His power was actually increased through his reincarnation and recuperation in Aman, and he returned to Middle-earth almost a peer of the Maiar. Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.

Relevant text from HoMe XII Late Writings: [Glorfindel] then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

What, Tolkien? "Spiritual power"? Why, we have never heard of this before!

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I don't think anyone said she could "crush" a Balrog.

Yes, in fact. We have a handy example in Glorfindel, whose duel with a Balrog went much the same as Gandalf's did. His power was actually increased through his reincarnation and recuperation in Aman, and he returned to Middle-earth almost a peer of the Maiar. Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.

Relevant text from HoMe XII Late Writings:

What, Tolkien? "Spiritual power"? Why, we have never heard of this before!
So if Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel, that means the curse of Mandos hasn't harshly affected her (except for weariness). And wasn't it said that the Eldar diminished in their spiritual powers eventually, or become weary to that effect? And if she was still more powerful than Glorfindel even after his rebirth, that would mean she was the closest to a Maia, right? But then Tolkien is confusing. He says that Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves (including the mighty Glorfindel) in the 3rd age. But he seems to suggest that Elrond was inherently more powerful than Galadriel in one of his letters:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

[Raynor]

Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.
Why would you say that?

[Hammerhand]

...And if she was still more powerful But he seems to suggest that Elrond was inherently more powerful than Galadriel in one of his letters:
[/I]

I think Elrond doesn't get enough positive recognition. Although everyone knows he is the son of Earendil and descendant of Melian and Thingol - he is relatively young as far as the history of ME goes, or rather, he has much to be compared to. He is never really given a "the fairest" "the strongest" or the "the wisest" title, moreso that he's good with wounds, is clued up on topical issues and has alot of experience in which he can relate situations to.

Personally, from the day i read his name in the Hobbit, i thought he was a fantastic character, but thats opinion. I see no reason why he shouldn't be considered "very powerful" His family tree is impressive is it not? and we all know how important family ties are in Middle Earth. He was present at a fair few of the decisive battles, Last Alliance for one, i apologise for not having any references with me at the present.

So though it never really states it, i see no reason why Elrond's power cannot be close or beyond Galadriel's. A positive in regard to Galadriel is that she has always been active with her power, the number of quotes in this thread prove that, whereas Elrond, taking into consideration his age and location, does not gain as much recognition. I hope that makes sense, i feel like i'm dying lol

[Morthoron]

So if Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel, that means the curse of Mandos hasn't harshly affected her (except for weariness). And wasn't it said that the Eldar diminished in their spiritual powers eventually, or become weary to that effect?

Galadriel's diminishment would not have occured until after the destruction of the One Ring and her going into the West (as she herself prophesies in her dialogue with Frodo in Lothlorien); nevertheless, as I stated previously, she demolishes the walls of Dol Guldur after the One Ring was destroyed, which represents an act of immense innate power above and beyond being a bearer of Nenya, which would have lost its potency with the One Ring's demise.

But then Tolkien is confusing. He says that Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves (including the mighty Glorfindel) in the 3rd age. But he seems to suggest that Elrond was inherently more powerful than Galadriel in one of his letters:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

There is no confusion really; I believe you might be misreading Tolkien's quote. He is stating that Galadriel believed herself capable of wielding the One Ring, but also the other guardians of the Three (that would be, at various times, Gil-Galad, Cirdan, Gandalf and Elrond) could also be capable of wielding the Ring as well, and of those other guardians, Elrond in particular. I don't believe the statement gives precedence to either Galadriel or Elrond.

It must also be remembered that Celebrimbor originally gave the Three Rings of Power only to his High-King, Gil-Galad, and to Galadriel (Gil-Galad then giving one each to Elrond and Cirdan, who in turn gave his to Gandalf). This, I believe, infers the status of Galadriel amongst the Elves.

[obloquy]

Why would you say that?

Because of references already posted in this thread. You may believe that Glorfindel, in his enhancement, exceeded what was previously the upper limit of Eldarin power (Luthien, Feanor, Galadriel) but I do not, and can see no support for the idea.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

Tolkien evidently does not share Galadriel's opinion of herself, since "others" in the first sentence appears to include the Elves, and he clearly names only Gandalf as having sufficient spiritual stature. He also becomes confusing at the end, saying that among the other guardians of the Three (other than Galadriel; i.e. Gandalf and Elrond), Elrond is especially capable. Elrond is more capable than Gandalf? I think Tolkien misspoke here, unless he was referring to who would yield the most desirable outcome from becoming the new Lord of the Ring. In which case, power alone is not the only consideration.

Edit: Or, as Morthoron mentioned, he refers to the ring bearers of all ages. Good post.

[Boromir88]

Actually the original quote was taken out of context and not given in full, which greatly alters the meaning of the entire part:
Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.~Letter 246
To set up the scenario here Tolkien was talking about Frodo claiming the Ring and a hypothetical 'Frodo ringbearer' scenario. He goes onto say that Frodo would not have been able to do much, he would have been taken back to Sauron, tortured and Sauron would have the Ring back. He goes on to say that no mortal could possible beat Sauron for mastery of the Ring. And the only reason Aragorn beat Sauron in the contest with the palantir was because it took place at a distant and Aragorn was the rightful owner.

He then moves onto 'the others' (which like obloquy I assume as Maiar and Elves)...to which he says only Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron for mastery of the Ring. He then talks about the 'other guardians' of the Elven Rings (which I think he would only be referring to Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf as those are the only ones he mentions).

What's important here is Tolkien doesn't say what he thinks, but what his characters think:

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord.

He then goes onto say that if Galadriel 'conceived' this herself so did the other Guardians...specially Elrond: If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

This quote is talking about what the bearers felt they could use the One Ring for, and that's why the last part of the quote (which seems to be conveniently left out) is important to the understanding. As he then talks about the 'essential deceit of the Ring.' Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf were all smart enough to know that the Ring was deceiving them with visions of 'supreme power' and were able to reject their own thoughts of using the Ring against Sauron. It has nothing to do with power unless you use it to show why Gandalf was one (if not the) most powerful person on Middle-earth. It is more about what various people thought they could do with the Ring (but the Ring being the evil little deceiver it is fills people with ideas of grandeur and power) and what they could actually do.

[obloquy]

Great post, Boromir88. My reputation button is not functioning, so I have to just tell you here that I appreciate your contribution.

[Raynor]

You may believe that Glorfindel, in his enhancement, exceeded what was previously the upper limit of Eldarin power (Luthien, Feanor, Galadriel) but I do not, and can see no support for the idea.
I wouldn't equate Galadriel being capable of wielding the ring with her being more powerful than Glorfindel in battle. In letter #246, Tolkien talks even about Frodo possibly becoming capable of wielding the ring, should his will be given enough time
Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. However, even if it occurred, I doubt that Frodo (without his ring) would be more powerful than Glorfindel, in battle, since his will (which is implied to be the one ingredient necessary for controlling the ring) and the battle skills of a hobbit would simply not suffice to take down an Elf Lord (or a balrog, for that matter).
Great post, Boromir88. My reputation button is not functioning, so I have to just tell you here that I appreciate your contribution.
I got the same problem; instead of clicking the reputation button, I opened it in a new window (or tab) and I was able to rep.

[obloquy]

I wouldn't equate Galadriel being capable of wielding the ring with her being more powerful than Glorfindel in battle.

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.

[Raynor]

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.
I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.
But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

[Raynor]

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.
I don't deny that she has some cool tricks; however, that doesn't guarantee she can best Glorfindel in battle.

[Hammerhand]

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

The last sentence was a good summary, however, i'm inclined to agree with Raynor on the point of her battle "abilities" - somebody made the statement earlier about her achievements being more "political", and that is the basis for the title "greatest". I think it has more to do with her perceptive abilities, strength of mind and will. To arrive at the conclusion that because she was dubbed "greatest" by Tolkien, she is a battle hardened war veteren of unmitigated power (exaggerated) i think is taking what Tolkien said and basing it on practically anything that can have a hierarchy. We have little evidence she could actually fight, and only a few scenarios whereby she is destructive through magic. For me, evidence is against her completely.

[obloquy]

Tolkien uses the same unqualified "greatest" to describe Galadriel as he does to describe Sauron (greatest of Melkor's servants). Please tell us why you refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle. It certainly isn't based on anything in the books. As I outlined in my "Sauron vs. Your Mama" thread, Middle-earth battles are more about spiritual stature than anything else. Maybe you can come up with an example of an exception to this rule, but I can't.

[Raynor]

At least on the general level, Galadriel, as an Elven woman, is rather guaranteed to deal some serious damage in battle:
Indeed, in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.
Edit:
And more specifically, I am reminded of her role in the battle of Alqualonde, as envisioned in the last version of the rebellion of the Noldor, set down in Tolkien's last month of his life:
In Feanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them.

[Hammerhand]

Tolkien uses the same unqualified "greatest" to describe Galadriel as he does to describe Sauron (greatest of Melkor's servants). Please tell us why you refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle. It certainly isn't based on anything in the books. As I outlined in my "Sauron vs. Your Mama" thread, Middle-earth battles are more about spiritual stature than anything else. Maybe you can come up with an example of an exception to this rule, but I can't.

I refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle simply because she fought maybe once or twice in the history of ME, by "fought" i refer to fighting - whether that includes a degree of spiritual works or sword, i mean a confrontational bout. She may have attacked Dol Guldur and broken its walls... with her power, and yet, has she ever claimed a significant life? not to my recollection. Celeborn led the host against Dol Guldur, whilst Galadriel stood atop a hill and fashioned some devilish hocus pocus.

What can magic do for you in a one on one bout? when there is a scant second between each parry? Not a great deal.

Ecthelion slew 3 Balrogs, and Gothmog (Maiar?) - It was achieved through his sword and helmet. Glorfindel slew a Balrog - He fought with a blade also. The Hammer of Wrath all bore weapons when they collectively slew several Balrogs. Fingolfin wounded the most powerful Valar with a blade. Infact, only Gandalf weaved magic into his combat (that with Durin's Bane) and he was Maiar. Conclusion - it doesn't take a spell to defeat a being of immense "power". It just takes a really skilled combatant.

So though magic may well be a prominent player in battle, in a one on one bout, it has little bearence, in my opinion. It is usually the case that those equipped with great power are also cunning fighters, which is why we associate that power with their battle prowess.

Unfortunately i don't have my books on tap at the moment, so i can't quote anything.

I think that the notion of "power" not being a key weapon in a duel is altogether plausible. So much evidence backs it up, and it is realistic. All of the greatest warriors bore a weapon, was it a means of channeling the "power"? i doubt it. Its just because they were great warriors, nothing more. Maybe with the lack of heroes during the third age, it is harder to determine the gravity of people in ages past. That is my level of thinking anyway, is it totally unbelievable?

[Raynor]

Well, there are other instances when magic was essential in a battle. Finrod and Sauron fought each other in songs of power and Luthien was capable of putting down even Melkor through her song. The valar battled Melkor in the beginning of Arda, and they dealt disastrous damage to the earth, much of which I would attribute to magic, rather than mere weapons.

[obloquy]

I never said anything about Galadriel's magic.

[Hammerhand]

I never said anything about Galadriel's magic.

Then i see even less reason as to why she'd be an able fighter to be honest.

[Boromir88]

I refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle simply because she fought maybe once or twice in the history of ME~Hammerhand
It doesn't matter how many times we are told Galadriel fought (with a 'blade')...what matters is that we know she could and that she did indeed fight with a 'blade' before. And my understanding that when she fought with a blade (as Raynor has provided with the Unfinished Tales quote) that she was quite good.

I say 'times we are told Galadriel fought' because as CT points out the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was being 'refashioned', their roles were becoming greater, and not everything was known.
There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn; and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistancies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.~Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Hammerhand]

It doesn't matter how many times we are told Galadriel fought (with a 'blade')...what matters is that we know she could and that she did indeed fight with a 'blade' before. And my understanding that when she fought with a blade (as Raynor has provided with the Unfinished Tales quote) that she was quite good.

I say 'times we are told Galadriel fought' because as CT points out the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was being 'refashioned', their roles were becoming greater, and not everything was known.

I'll concede that she had the ability to use a blade. I do believe it is important that she seldom fought, and that she never fought anyone of significance. The reason being that we know little about her physical abilities, so to claim she could best a Balrog or even Glorfindel... or many others, to me, is hypothetical and unfounded.

The roles of Galadriel and Celeborn only became more important because they were two of the few Elven Lords still in charge of a settlement in Middle Earth and because they bore a large degree of power and influence - I can't see many other reasons besides, unless ofcourse Tolkien had some other purpose for the characters.

[CSteefel]

Another possible argument against one of the three Rings like Nenya making a big difference is that Gandalf was wearing one himself. Here you have a Maia pitted against a Maia, but with one holding one of the 3 Rings. To the extent that the contest between the Balrog and Gandalf was a draw, then it would seem the Ring didn't make a large amount of difference.

However...

Perhaps another way to view the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog is that Gandalf did win finally, but that the mortal part of himself (the form he took on coming to Middle Earth) was the casualty. From this interpretation, Gandalf is really made up of two components: the Maiar (that later becomes Gandalf the White) and the human, which suffers heat and cold and injury like the rest of men.

Where this leaves Galadriel or Glorfindel is less clear, but neither seems to have a clearly human form in the same sense that Gandalf has (for example, Glorfindel still appears as young as a spring chicken despite his 6,000 year age, while Gandalf appears more aged, even if he does age slowly).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It must also be remembered that Celebrimbor originally gave the Three Rings of Power only to his High-King, Gil-Galad, and to Galadriel (Gil-Galad then giving one each to Elrond and Cirdan, who in turn gave his to Gandalf). This, I believe, infers the status of Galadriel amongst the Elves.


While there's little doubt about her native power, this I think also was a question of 'legitimacy:' Gil-Galad and Galadriel were the only fully-Elven members of the House of Finwe left in Middle-earth.


Hammerhand: I' think you're confusing the meaning of 'early' and 'late' Balrogs. What folks are trying to say is that Balrogs *in JRRT's early writings* are more numerous and less individually powerful than they would become *in Tolkien's later writings*- not that from an internal perspective Balrogs became more powerful over time.


Canonicity: If we're going to confine ourself to works published before 1973, then the Balrog of Moria is the *only* one. If on the other hand we take the more reasonable approach of trying to deduce from existing writings what Tolkien's considered opinion was, then we see that as late as ca. 1970 Glorfindel's duel was still in effect; and as late as the work on 'Maeglin' Glorfindel and Ecthelion are paired as the great captains of the Hidden City. What we can't do is conclude that the old Tale remains canonical, notwithstanding certain elements of Tuor's journey which would endure: the heraldry of 1917 was gone by 1951, as were (almost certainly) the mechanical dragon-tanks, and any linguistic structure that would allow an Elf to be named "Rog."

[Hammerhand]

Hammerhand: I' think you're confusing the meaning of 'early' and 'late' Balrogs. What folks are trying to say is that Balrogs *in JRRT's early writings* are more numerous and less individually powerful than they would become *in Tolkien's later writings*- not that from an internal perspective Balrogs became more powerful over time.


Canonicity: If we're going to confine ourself to works published before 1973, then the Balrog of Moria is the *only* one. If on the other hand we take the more reasonable approach of trying to deduce from existing writings what Tolkien's considered opinion was, then we see that as late as ca. 1970 Glorfindel's duel was still in effect; and as late as the work on 'Maeglin' Glorfindel and Ecthelion are paired as the great captains of the Hidden City. What we can't do is conclude that the old Tale remains canonical, notwithstanding certain elements of Tuor's journey which would endure: the heraldry of 1917 was gone by 1951, as were (almost certainly) the mechanical dragon-tanks, and any linguistic structure that would allow an Elf to be named "Rog."

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane? Furthermore, if there were only seven Balrogs at a time in ME, how come we never hear of any besides Durin's Bane in the third age? and why didn't they help Sauron? Doesn't really make sense to me.

My previous point concerning Fingolfin was solid. If a powerful elf can wound a Valar, why wouldn't one be able to wound or kill a 'later' Balrog? Say for example that Ecthelion fought Durin's Bane, would you conclude that Durin's Bane would triumph? Swap Ecthelion with Glorfindel or Fingolfin, would you draw the same conclusion? Alot of this topic is hypothetical, being that half of the people being debated never fought a Balrog, and most of those that did, fought 'early' Balrogs.

I also think personally, that if there is an elf named "Rog", and it was published, we can only assume it was meant to be - maybe Tolkien, the lawmaker, didn't want a Nordic representation of him? I am not a linguistics expert, it just seems to me that though most of the names in ME have a 'meaning' as such, does it make it obligatory?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane?

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Rog: The name never has appeared in print, except in HoME. He's a leftover from a very primitive stage in what would become Sindarin, when it was still called Goldogrin or Gnomish.

[Hammerhand]

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

Ahh i understand where you are coming from now, thanks alot for explaining your perspective.

I think its interesting how Ecthelion managed to stay Gothmog with conventional equipment, as did Glorfindel, whereas Gandalf the Maiar was dependent on his hocus pocus to kill Durin's Bane after days of combat.

The lesson in this: Do not mess with an angry Elf.

It leaves many questions unanswered though if we choose to not necessarily include some of Tolkien's earlier work in evalutions.

[Mithadan]

I've not gone back to read this entire thread so I may simply be repeating what some other member has said here. The relative strength of the Balrog's opponent may be entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the combatant can survive. There appears to be an unwritten rule in the Legendarium that "he who slays one of the people of the Ainur must also perish." Indeed there is no case known where one who defeats any of the few Maiar reported as slain manages to survive. Ecthelion and Balrog, both died. Glorfindel and Balrog, both died. Gandalf and Balrog (or Balrog and Gandalf), both dead. Wormtongue and Saruman, both dead. Elendil/Gil-Galad and Sauron, all dead.

My, isn't this just so pleasant?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Balrogs vs. Noldor: it's tragically the case that Tolkien only wrote an account of Gondolin's fall twice: the very early Tale, in fact the first one he ever wrote; and the version which perforce was used in the published Silmarillion, which dates from 1930. He never returned to it. Had he finished the 'Long Tuor' (in UT) we might have had a completely new take on Ecthelion and Glorfindel.

It is perhaps worth noting that Gandalf, like these two, had a Gondolin-made sword.

[Mithadan]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.

[Hammerhand]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.

I would love to see a more detailed version of Ecthelion Vs Gothmog aswell, it would be fantastic. I second your notion sir! Two of the most renown warriors of Middle Earth, how glorified, yet how satisfying.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).
And the recovery of the hero's body by a Great Eagle... and the fact that both were reincarnated.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Ok, so Lothlorien would be in trouble in trouble if the Balrog or Smaug came there and attacked? What about "the power that dwelt there that was too great for any to overcome unless Sauron came there himself"? Shouldn't this apply to any power lesser to Sauron (which would include Smaug & the Balrog)? And if Galadriel was indeed more powerful than Glorfindel spiritually, then wouldn't it be obvious that she was more like to the level of a maia than Glorifindel who was enhanced?

[CSteefel]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.
Yes, in fact I believe I posted something to this effect earlier. The parallels between Gandalf and Glorfindel are pretty striking, even beyond the Balrog fight.

As to the Balrog coming to Lothlorien, this seems to make no sense. Certainly the Balrog would not be able to overcome the protection of Lothlorien, since only Sauron (and probably then with the Ring) would be able to do so. In fact, it seems noteworthy to me that the Balrog stayed hidden in the deep recesses of Moria. There is no record of him ever venturing forth that I know of...

[Mithadan]

The parallels between Gandalf and Glorfindel are pretty striking, even beyond the Balrog fight.


I read somewhere, perhaps here, the theory that there exist in the Legendarium a class of "heroes" known as White Riders. That theory included both Glorfindel and Gandalf within this category, based upon their apparent power over opponents while on horseback and the fact that both seemed to possess an inner white light.

[LadyBrooke]

Ok, so Lothlorien would be in trouble in trouble if the Balrog or Smaug came there and attacked? What about "the power that dwelt there that was too great for any to overcome unless Sauron came there himself"? Shouldn't this apply to any power lesser to Sauron (which would include Smaug & the Balrog)? And if Galadriel was indeed more powerful than Glorfindel spiritually, then wouldn't it be obvious that she was more like to the level of a maia than Glorifindel who was enhanced?

I think that the reason that it would be a very dangerous thing for a balrog to come to Lothlorien has less to do with Galadriel’s ability to fight either of them, and more to do with the fact that Lothlorien is a forest and balrogs are ancient demons of flames. Whatever other powers she had, I doubt automatic sprinkler system was one of them. ;)

Being slightly more serious, a tightly packed forest is probably not the best place to fight a large beast, simply because of the lack of maneuverability. By the time you would have been able to get close enough to take a swing at it with your sword, half the land you’re fighting on might be on fire. I feel it important to note that most of the places where balrogs were fought were either mountains, cities in mountains, or barren desert-like places. So, as long as you dodged it’s whip you weren’t up in flames. Plus, with Lothlorien the balrog wouldn't even have to enter to destroy it.

[arathorn]

The elven rings don't enhance their bearers in terms of "individual powers". That being said Galadriel, who stood along with Melian much more time than Glorfindel with any Maiar, was capable of destroying a fortress and eradicate all darkness in that place, said to be the greatest Eldar of the Third age and the greatest of all times save Feanor would be more powerful than Glorfindel for sure.
Galadriel in the Third Age would use Magic against a Balrog and would probably demolish him.

[Belegorn]

Perhaps wings weakened them, a physiological defect. After all, the energy involved in flapping them and flying must deflect from the energy/power available to produce fire and bat around arms.

I lol'ed at this one, haha.