Are You Writing Serious Fantasy? II [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eruwen

07-08-2003, 08:35 AM

I've always liked writing, mostly short stories, and I must admit once in a while I thought about writing a novel. My problem was that I couldn't think of anything to write. That is, until I read LOTR. Somehow that book inspired me to write the longest piece of work I have yet done. June 5th of 2002 I started to write what I thought would be a short story. After a few days of writing, I decided to extend it and make it into a novel. I had no clue what I was getting myself into.

My story first started out as a fan-fiction of LOTR. I made up my own characters, of course, but I put the settings in Mirkwood at a time after the 4th age. After a few months of writing, I started to talk to people about it. I even talked to a few on this site. They, unfortunately, convinced me to not write a fan-fic but a novel of my own creation.

I sat down and had to re-do the entire thing. I kept most of the characters I made, and some points of the original story, but now it is completely different. This fantasy I am writing has probably taken up most of my free time at home and at school. I would constantly keep coming up with ideas, and no matter where I was, I would have to write them down.

I made up my own world, characters, places, creatures, everything. I had no idea the sort of thing was in me. And now after over a year of when I started this piece originally, I have written 13 chapters. I started out with probably around 6 characters at the beginning, and now I have over 25. I have 7 different types of creatures, 15 names of places, and so many pages of story I don't even know what to do with it...and I'm not done either. Even now after all this time I have finally come up with a title for my novel, and it would be Mirage.

Now...you ask...

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy?

All my life I have been interested in what you would call "fantasy". Pretty much, I have just been fascinated with things that would not happen in everyday life. Sci-fi, mythology, and even just plain fiction has all intrigued my mind in a way I have not been able to escape. I guess writing a fantasy was just a way of making me happy.

What kind do you write?

I used to write short stories on ghosts and aliens and different stuff like that. Now, however, I have been interested more in mythological type writings. Things having to do with magical beings, fairy-tale type lands, and, of course, extraordinary heros like Sam are now my main topic.

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?

How could he not? Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were the ones who inspired me to write fantasy in the first place. I think it was to a point that I envied their works so much that I wanted to write something just as good as them...which we all know is not possible. But Tolkien influence me in giving me the will and determination to write my novel, and not stop writing until I know it comes to what I want it to be.

Estella Brandybuck

07-11-2003, 07:19 PM

Fantasy writing is my main passion in life.

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy? What kind do you write?

Well, it's just the area that I'm the most comfortable in. It's fun and challenging, what more could you want? I love finding the balance between the emotional, physical, and spiritual aspects of the story. Making it fantasical (I'm willing to bet that's not a real word smilies/tongue.gif ) and yet belivable to some extent. And with fantasy, you're able to create so much for the world you're writing in. So many different species, languages, places, and people are possible. The challenge comes in making them all real, bringing them all to life. I love it.

As for what kind - well, I write action, adventure, drama, and romance all in one story. It's tough, writing in so many different genres, but it's necessary for the story; I've got battles I need to write (those are the parts that are hardest for me smilies/tongue.gif ), relationships that need to develop, exposition on past events, and... phew. It's hard, but that's just one of the things that makes writing so fun - the challenge.

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?

Of course. He practically invented the genre, didn't he? I started writing my main fantasy story long before I'd read LotR, but as we all know, ideas develop long after you've started putting things down on paper (or WordPad, as the case may be smilies/wink.gif ), and I think reading Tolkien made me more mature as a writer. He opened my eyes to all that's possible, to all I could be (I sound like an Army advertisement, don't I? smilies/tongue.gif ). Also, a lot of things in the Appendices inspired me - I was rereading the Tale of Ages and thought, "Hey, that looks like fun!" smilies/wink.gif So I wrote a timeline for my world. And it was more than fun, it was insanely helpful. I finally had a synopsis, and I hadn't even intended to write one! smilies/wink.gif And though I'd been developing maps and languages before I read LotR, Tolkien really helped me to improve what I already had. Like I said, I became much more mature as a writer after I read Tolkien's works.

I guess we as fantasy writers are all indebted to Tolkien in our own way. smilies/smile.gif

By the way, I think threads like these are wonderful, giving writers a place to come together, share experiences, and help each other out. smilies/smile.gif

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Estella Brandybuck ]

Estella Brandybuck

07-11-2003, 07:42 PM

Okay, for some reason, the site wouldn't let me edit my last post, so I'll just have to post again...

How about a new question: how do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?

Well, my three main protagonists are based off of people I know in real life, with similar strengths and faults. Ahh, faults - I think that giving your characters a decent amount of flaws really helps the reader identify with those characters. And that, my friends, is why Mary Sues are such a turn-off. smilies/wink.gif Now that's not to say that these people should be complete spazzes, unable to solve any problem and spending most of the story bouncing off of walls. Even if the character isn't human, I think it's good to give them the human quality of making a few mistakes while also having plenty strength of their own. I don't know if I'm making any sense, so I'd better stop now...

My story first started out as a fan-fiction of LOTR. I made up my own characters, of course, but I put the settings in Mirkwood at a time after the 4th age. After a few months of writing, I started to talk to people about it. I even talked to a few on this site. They, unfortunately, convinced me to not write a fan-fic but a novel of my own creation.

Aww, I think you should've continued with the fanfic! Fanfiction is a great way to pratice your writing. It helps you understand and respect proper characterization, character interactions, decent plot continuation, and things like that. Plus, it's really fun. smilies/wink.gif

Kates Frodo Temp

07-12-2003, 11:33 AM

Interesting thread, guys! I flatter myself I am a beginning writer after the style of C.S. Lewis. Time will tell.

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy?
It just came to me. I've always loved creating the characters in my mind, and realized that I was capable of developing a real passion for the person I imagined. When I started reading more fantasy, I couldn't help but try my hand at writing!

What kind do you write?
I have plans for several novels, and have one well underway. I'm starting over, though. I was in a real slump, and couldn't understand what was holding me back. Then it hit me: I ALWAYS write with an outline, but had failed to make one for this work! Aaaaahhhhhhh!!!!

My poetry is truly awful. That's okay, cuz I really don't want to write poetry anyway. I only create it when I'm very bored and want a writing challenge. What I do is think up a complicated rhyme scheme and think up something to fit it. Doesn't make for great writing, but it's great to kill some time!

Has Tolkien influenced your writing?
I'm sure Tolkien's writing has influenced me in some way. It really isn't obvious in my writing, though. I dislike fan fiction, and would never try to copy anyone, but I think the idea of creating my own languages probably came from Tolkien.

How do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?
My current main character is a true antihero. Not the type that gets respect. I don't even like him. smilies/smile.gif I tend to depend on a strong "supporting cast" of characters. Hmmm...Gotta work on that.

My writing has been described as correct and well thought out, but not interesting. I foresee a career as a journalist before me! smilies/evil.gif Thankfully, my lil'sis is helping me with character developement and description. She has a truly artistic mind, and that flavor carries over to her writing.

Can anyone suggest a site where I can get help and inspiration?

Have a great day!
~Kates~

the guy who be short

07-12-2003, 12:39 PM

Lily, don't worry about not being able to think of a title for your book/work/novel. I am three chapters into my poem and still don't know the title.
Well, right at the beginning I named it "The Tale of the Fall of Men into Evil" but I think that sounds terrible. So I want to rename it but I don't know what to call it.
I have heard that the best thing to do is to wait until you've written your entire work and that's exactly what I'm gonna do.

Eruwen

07-12-2003, 12:44 PM

Aww, I think you should've continued with the fanfic! Fanfiction is a great way to pratice your writing. It helps you understand and respect proper characterization, character interactions, decent plot continuation, and things like that. Plus, it's really fun.

Actually I probably should have. It was kinda cool, because I had my character run into Merry and Pippin's grandchildren while she was wandering near the road in Mirkwood. Although, I have to admit I think I might keep my fan-fic writing to only poems. I might write a short story here and there, but I like writing mostly poems. Who knows though...I might get inspired soon to finish writing it.

How do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?

I'm not sure about this one. My hero is pretty much just an average person...who might know how to fight pretty good. Like in my book, my main character I had as one who loves music and poetry and she loved the outdoors. I guess it all depends on what the reader is interested in as if they can relate to it or not. I pretty much just think of a character with traits that I thought would be interesting, and I just hope that others will think the same.

Can anyone suggest a site where I can get help and inspiration?

Well I can recommend this site for inspiration. You can go to the RPG sections or also the fan-fiction section of the Downs. There are so many great writers here that there is no possible way not to get inspired. For instance, Gilthalion wrote a wonderful Fan-fic called "The Hobbits" which I have constantly read and re-read. It inspired me so much. I think it was because of this story that I was inspired to write my first poem about Frodo and Sam.

As for help, I'm sure anyone on this site would be glad to help and also there is breeunderbreehill (http://breeunderbreehill.com),Ringbearer (http://www.ringbearer.org), and Tolkien Online (http://www.tolkienonline.com). I love all of those.

littlemanpoet

07-13-2003, 05:19 AM

Hmmm... I didn't exactly answer Morquesse's questions. I better rectify that.

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy?

Back in '86 I couldn't find the kind of fantasy I wanted to read, so I decided to write my own. I didn't think it would take this long to be halfway through my first novel! smilies/eek.gif

What kind do you write?

I write "transition" fantasy; that's a term coined by Nar in the old "AYWSF" thread. It means that my protag starts out in our modern world and leaves it to go to the faerie realm. So it's part high fantasy and part modern fairy tale, I guess.

Oh! The other category besides transition fantasy is "immersion" - which is when your protag starts out in the world you've created. That's what LotR is.

So - are you writing transition or immersion fantasy?

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?

Heck, Tolkien has influenced my entire life! I was introduced to The Hobbit when I was 8, and finished LotR by the time I was 14. LotR and Middle Earth had a powerful impact on how I see the world. For example, when I was a little kid I was brought up to be very patriotic, but by the time I was 12 I loved Middle Earth instead of my own country. (Watergate and Vietnam didn't help either, but that's another story).

More to the point, does Tolkien influence my writing? Yes. Since he influences my entire outlook, how could he not?

So are you writing transition fantasy or immersion fantasy? smilies/smile.gif

Elennar Starfire

07-13-2003, 01:23 PM

So are you writing transition fantasy or immersion fantasy?

I am writing both, I have several stories that I am currently working on, some transition and some immersion.

I wrote a short story for an english assignment that I think is good, but it isn't very well developed, because I didn't have much time to write it, and it seems more like a segment of a longer story.

I have a really hard time introducing my main characters, which is why I've only written a prologue so far, although I've come up with many ideas for different stories.

Sometimes I like to start with a title that gives me an idea of what the main idea will be.

These are my random ramblings...
I'll stop now.

Estella Brandybuck

07-13-2003, 01:26 PM

I write "transition" fantasy; that's a term coined by Nar in the old "AYWSF" thread. It means that my protag starts out in our modern world and leaves it to go to the faerie realm. So it's part high fantasy and part modern fairy tale, I guess.

Ahh, so there's a word for that kind of fantasy! Yes, my current story is a transition fantasy; four of the main protagonists (the main humans) come from our world and pass over into the world that I created. I'd explain it a bit more, but then I'd end up summarizing the whole story, and I know no one wants that. smilies/wink.gif

Actually I probably should have. It was kinda cool, because I had my character run into Merry and Pippin's grandchildren while she was wandering near the road in Mirkwood. Although, I have to admit I think I might keep my fan-fic writing to only poems. I might write a short story here and there, but I like writing mostly poems. Who knows though...I might get inspired soon to finish writing it.

I think that would be nice. I've found that the more I write fanfic, the more my writing improves, which greatly helps my original story. And who knows - maybe you can incorporate any new ideas or certain lines from your fanfic into your original story.

Eruwen

07-13-2003, 02:06 PM

So are you writing transition fantasy or immersion fantasy?

Well, I never really thought about writing transition fantasy before. I mostly write immersion, though, the idea of transition fantasy does give me an idea for the 3rd sequal to a short story I wrote in 6th grade.

Anyway, yes, I like writing immersion. I guess I just get all caught up in the world I created in my book, that I never even stop to think about "What if I had a character from today's time enter the story?". I did think about having people from a distant land, like and existing land around the time my world would have exitsted, come into the story. But somehow when I started writing it the idea just disappeared from my mind. Thankyou for reminding me of that, littlemanpoet, though I'm sure you did it unintentionally. I think now I have just discovered the ending to my book.

the guy who be short

07-13-2003, 02:13 PM

I dont know what immersion is, but I don't think I write that either. Mine is like Tolkien's Middle-Earth, It's our world, but in ancient times.

Sauron 666

07-13-2003, 02:26 PM

I am currently working on a fantasy quest type story very much inspired by Tolkein's works (especially the Silmarillion and LOTR). I want to create my own fictional universe like Tolkein and Lovecraft have done.

I have no idea what the main story will turn out to be except that it will be a quest of some sort. Right now i'm focusing more o ncreating the background of the story (how the 'world' was created, common legends, different races/cultures, etc). I'm also working on a language though that is proving very difficult since all i have are a bunch of sounds and these sounds must mean something and it must be consistent, unfortunately i'm not a linguist or a philologist like Tolkein so this complicates the task for me (i only know 2 languages fluently). As well I want to make it more morally ambigious than anything Tolkein ever came up with since i feel that the obvious christian tone/message of Tolkein's works are their only weakness. I'll probably be working on this for many years until i feel it'll be published as i'm only 22 and i'll i've ever written are poems/songs and a few short stories here and there.

Gilthalion

07-17-2003, 08:37 AM

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy? What kind do you write?

I liked fantasy very much. Read Tolkien's essay on Fairy Stories for the last word on what fantasy should be. In short, it is an entertaining way to get at the Truth.

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?

Yes. He inspired me to make the most of language, including the practice of poetry. Description is important, and Tolkien was a master of it. Poetry can reach us in ways that prose often cannot, and working at it produces a concision of thought that makes prose even better.

How do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?

In the case of THE HOBBITS, there was some consideration of the audience. I thought that Elediriel, a bookish hobbit lass who gets caught up in an adventure with the very folk she knew so much about from her books, would be quite relatable. As with her friends, I tried to introduce the kinds of emotional responses that a person might really feel in her shoes. (Not that she ever wore any.) Describing how she FELT about what was happening to her induces the reader to sympathize with her.

What kind do you write? (Transition or Immersion)

This was a short novel written in the Immersion style. I don't know if I will ever write another fan fiction, but a Transition tale might be fun, if handled convincingly. The next work I do should be for publication, and it will be a long novel about the forthcoming Millennial Kingdom that, again, is immersed in its own millieu.

ERUWEN: You can go to the RPG sections or also the fan-fiction section of the Downs. There are so many great writers here that there is no possible way not to get inspired. For instance, Gilthalion wrote a wonderful Fan-fic called "The Hobbits" which I have constantly read and re-read. It inspired me so much. I think it was because of this story that I was inspired to write my first poem about Frodo and Sam.

smilies/biggrin.gif This made my day! Perhaps you've seen the banner ad that directs you to my simple fan site, which links back to THE HOBBITS as hosted here on the Barrow-Downs. I highly recommend that you purchase this sort of advertising for your own tales, if you truly believe in them (and in the Barrow-Downs)!

Duncariel

07-17-2003, 04:09 PM

How about a new question: how do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?

My main characters are mostly (ahhh! brain freeze, can't remember how to spell model) models of some of my friends. I don't suggest trying this method, seeing how it is fairly difficult to pull it off without them knowing it. Most of the situations that they "land" in are also taken from real experiences.

I made up my own world, characters, places, creatures, everything.

I have created a world similar to Tolkien's ME, complete with a map and a bestiary. The creation of the world in which the characters exist has taken up most of my writing time. So, now that it is finished, I can get down to business. Although, the "business" part is a lot more fun... smilies/smile.gif

Meela

07-18-2003, 12:18 PM

I am currently working on around five or six novels, or at least the basic ideas. Two are most definitely not based on Tolkien, and a couple are not even fantasy.
One is more comparable to Lord Of The Rings but I am trying to avoid any large similarities. I am also working on a series of short stories, which are largely unrelated to Tolkien.

The only way in which Tolkien has influenced my work is in the way he has portrayed elves. I suppose I never really considered the different ways in which elves could be personified, ie. near-human, pixie, etc.
Other than that, Tolkien has no major influence over my work. I have been writing since I could write, and it has always been fantasy. I generally live in a dream world (in fact, I'm wondering if I have some sort of mental disorder, I spend so much time "out of the real world"), regardless of my love of Tolkien.

littlemanpoet

07-19-2003, 09:09 AM

the guy who be short: Nar classifies Tolkien's - and therefore your story - as immersion fantasy. The reason for this is although it's our world, it's a different time, thousands and thousands of years removed from our own such that it's tantamount to a different world. Of course, there's plenty that is familiar and feels like "home", but that just makes it all the better. It's still immersion fantasy.

Imladris

07-19-2003, 10:21 AM

Ahh, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who has four novels in the works and ideas for more flitting through my mind.

I actually began writing poetry before I started actual stories. Then, to make my e-mails to my Grandma longer, I started to write "short stories" about the life of flowers in our garden...the short stories actually ended up to be a short book. Then the poetry side of me kind of "died out" and I started a sci fi, with a plot that my brother thought out. There is one book that is based on LOTR, but I won't have any elves. I will introduce faeries, but they will be slim little girls full of mischeif (I don't think I spelled that right)! smilies/smile.gif

Of course Tolkien influences my work! The main thing is how he makes everything so deep, bringing in bits of the past into LOTR. That is what influences me. I try to show the past (which I plan on writing one of these days) into my story.

I like to develope my characters so that they have plenty of original sin and are not perfect demi-gods. I also want to make them deep and intricate so that you are really drawn into them and its as if you are really them when you read about them. Of course, I have a really hard time with that. I want to make my characters so real, that if one of them dies, you start to cry.

I am writing in four genres: science fiction, historical fiction, fantasy, and future fiction (a book like 1984 and Brave New World). As you can see, I'm a fantasy nut. Love fiction, love fantasy even more, despise history and biographies because they are usually drier than dust. Actually I did read three that weren't like that. Autobiographies are usually better, but I really love fantasy because it is so different.

The main problem with writing my stories is that I run out of inspiration. Everybody loves my writing (even strangers!). It's just that I run out of ideas, I get out of the writing mode, everything I've written sounds poor and worthless...those are the main problems I need to overcome.

Duncariel

07-19-2003, 12:20 PM

The main problem with writing my stories is that I run out of inspiration

I basically have the same problem that you do, Imladris. A good idea is to copy all of your original ideas into a document on your computer, or into a separate notebook. That way, you can review them and add more as you go along with your story. Worked for me! smilies/wink.gif

Sirithheruwen

07-19-2003, 07:53 PM

I know this sounds really cheesey, but LOTR is what first fantasy book that made me say,"hey! I think I want to write fantasy!" There have been many more since, but LOTR sticks with me as the first one. I'm still working out the plot of a story right now, but I'm thinking it will be pretty good. The problem for me is starting the book!
I've always kinda wanted to write, and this has enhanced my decision. I can't wait to get started. smilies/biggrin.gif

littlemanpoet

07-20-2003, 11:46 AM

Regarding inspiration: I've had my share of troubles in the past, but I got a few helpful pointers from my local writer's group, as well as a certain online writer's group I joined.

1. Look for conflict. Conflict drives plot.

2. Check for implications. For example, do you have a magic item or artefact? What does it do? Who wants it? Who has it now? What might that other person who wants it do in order to get it? How did something your main character did, affect your other characters? Take a look at each one to see what cause and effect stuff is going on.

3. Ask all of your primary and secondary characters what they're up to while the plot you've already figured out is going on. This is a source of unending plot twists for me. It also helps me fill out my minor characters, and don't you know that one or more of them become major characters that are sometimes even more interesting than the original protags.

That's usually enough to get whole new chapters written for me.

Imladris

07-21-2003, 04:10 PM

Wow! Littlemanpoet, that last post about inspiration was excellent! I do have one question thought, what do you mean by conflict? How does conflict drive the plot? I know stupid question...

littlemanpoet

07-23-2003, 08:11 PM

What do you mean by conflict? How does conflict drive a plot?

Not stupid at all, Imladris! smilies/smile.gif

Conflict in a story, as well as in real life, is when two different people do things, or want things, that both can't do or want at the same time. That was too confusing to be worth it. I'll try again, by means of examples.

My two primary protagonists are step-brothers. #1 had his Dad, #2 had his Mom and Mom and Dad got married. #2 and Dad never really developed much of a relationship. #1 and Mom were constantly at war because Mom was always trying to force #1 to take #2 along with him everywhere, which #1 couldn't stand. So there you have conflict between #1 and Mom, between #1 and #2, and between #2 and Dad. That doesn't sound much like fantasy, but it is background.

My magical Society has three factions; the light faction is trying to hold power and the dark faction is trying to take it away. The middle faction is trying to transcend the whole power play thing and get on with practicing the Art.

In my faerie world, it's light versus dark.

My #1 protag is taken to my faerie world by a lady faerie. Thing is, he's engaged. He's not romantically interested in the faerie lady, but #1 looks and acts just like the faerie lady's lost lover. #1 has to choose between the faerie world and his fianceé. There's conflict.

How do these people's desires conflict with each other? Throw a magic sword in the midst of the Society and the power struggle intensifies around the new item.

And so on. I hope that helps. If I'm still being unclear, let me know and I'll try again.

Imladris

07-24-2003, 06:40 AM

Thank you for clarifying that! I wonder if I don't have enough conflict in one of my stories. I mean, there is the good vs bad, but I wonder if there is not enough between the central characters. One has a lot of inner conflict within herself. That's hard to write. smilies/rolleyes.gif

Thank you so much!!!!

purplefluffychainsaw

07-24-2003, 02:35 PM

Hmmm... I guess I'd better tell you what my books are like.
I'm working on a seven part series (Which is definatly NOT about a boy at his magical school smilies/wink.gif God, its taking me ages to do! I was writing a chapter a week, but my computer broke, and even since I got it back havn't got back into that rotine. I've been working on the first book since about easter and I'm not even a sith of the way through! I don't know where I got the idea, I just thought, right. I'm going to write a book and its going to have a mage in it and a cat and... And I worked it out from there!

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy? What kind do you write?

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?

I don't think I ever did decide. I've been writing fantasy since I could. Probably becuase I'm autistic so I find it hard to express feelings, whenever I got really annoyed or something like that I would write a short story with the chacter feeling like I was at the time. They were always fantasy. Probably because its really the only genre I've ever been interested in. The first book I read was a book of myths (I went from not reading at all to reading books years above my age in a half term smilies/smile.gif

I write any books that come into my head. Thats normally fantasy but I think I've done a few sci-fi and comedy ones. But the comedy ones were based on fantasy so...

Tolkien has influnced my writing in so many ways. All the writers I've ever read have (Way to many to list!) I think I valued Tolkiens way of writing becuase its very similar to my own and becuase he used myths and things for his backrounds. The first time I read LotR I could see the edges of myths that I had read over and over again creaping in. I loved his elves. Thats what shows must in my writing. I never liked the faries of fariy tales. If there was ever a fariy party I would always be the one without wands and wings but with a bow; becuase these were the elves I loved and beleived in.

What kind do you write? (Transition or Immersion)

I don't acctually know. Mines based in a time that isn't stated. It has all the modern technology but could easily be in the future. Basically it's set on the Earth which is split into three worlds: the World that Is (A magical world), the Worlds Wood (a place that separates the other two), and the World. The World is the one we're in now.

how do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?

I don't think I have tried. I just split myself into six, but one part in each of the main charaters and then the seventh is me.

Elennar Starfire

07-29-2003, 11:05 AM

I just combined two of the story ideas I have into one, and now I'm not sure if it's transition or immersion. My main character lives in our world, but also belongs to my fantasy world, though she doesn't know it yet.

how do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?

I just make them someone I can relate to/sympathize with. People are more alike than you might think, so if you can relate to a character, there's a good chance other people will too.

littlemanpoet

08-09-2003, 09:46 AM

I've been reading a book about writing fiction, by Orson Scott Card, the author of the Ender's Game and Alvin Maker series. The book's title is Characters & Viewpoint. The subtitle is: How to invent, construct, and animate vivid, credible characters and choose the best eyes through which to view the events of your short story or novel.

Simply put, I wish I had read this book fifteen years ago. It was published fifteen years ago.

It is crucial to my understanding of what I'm doing as a writer, whether I want to get published, or because I just love writing and want to make my story the best I can.

Card uses The Lord of the Rings as an example for many of his points. So there's the necessary tie in. smilies/wink.gif

Just to nail this down with some usefulness to you by way of example: the transition versus immersion versus lizardzone categories are of limited use because they don't really help you know how to write better. Card supplies four categories of fiction that really help you know how to write better. It's MICE. That's a handy acronym for:

M - milieu
I - idea
C - character
E - Event

Every story has one thread that holds the story that you're weaving together, and it's one of the four I've listed above.

LOTR is the best example of Milieu. You love the place! You want to go to Middle Earth. The story is about Middle Earth, and the characters and events and ideas that are there, but the thread is the Milieu.

Detective and Caper fiction (think the movie Bandits are examples of Idea fiction. Some problem (like a murder) occurs at the beginning, or a feat (like a bank robbery) is planned at the beginning, and the story is done when the murder is solved or the bank is successfully robbed and you celebrate with the robbers for pulling it off and getting away with it. (We were all sympathetic and cheered Bruce Willis, Billy Bob Thornton, and Cate Blanchett, did we not?)

Character is the story in which the character herself is the thread, and she is less than she needs to become, and by the end of the book you see how she has become what she needed to. This is typical modern fiction.

Event fiction is the classic kind. Something bad happens, or something bad always happens, and the protagonist of the story is the hero who must set things right, and get the girl while he's at it, and become king at the end, to boot. The modern romance is a good example of this story.

So now for the question: Which of the four MICE categories is the main thread tying together the story you're writing?

Whichever it is, it will help you to know how to START your story and how to END it.

If you want to know more details about this, borrow Card's book from the local library. Better yet, if you're a really serious writer, or want to be, buy it. I'm going to.

By the way, my story is Milieu. And now to go back and rewrite. smilies/eek.gif

LMP

OddEvenstar

08-09-2003, 01:28 PM

Writing is one of the most important parts of my life. Like many of you, I aspire to become at least half the author Tolkien was. As for fantasy, I entered a sci-fi/fantasy writing contest several years ago...and failed miserably. I didn't really expect to win anything; it was a horrible story! It was rather the pixie-faerie type thing, but hey, I was in 3rd Grade! Funny how I haven't thought about writing another fantasy until now...I'm more into realistic fiction writing, and won a couple of awards that way. I don't have any illusions of actual potential in the way of fantasy, but Tolkien has certainly given me a lot to think about. Besides, I'm 13, I've got a long way to go!

Sirithheruwen

05-09-2004, 04:50 PM

Okay, I have just finished reading the old AYWSF thread (all 22 pages! It took me 2 weeks!) and I have decided to resurrect this one, basicly for moral support and to see some new writers here!

I briefly posted on this thread when I first came to the Barrowdowns, but it hardly had anything to do with writing. At the moment, I am writing a fantasy story that could possibly become a duology (phrase coined by LMP. It means "two books") or even a trilogy. I havn't actually started the writing process yet, but I'm very far into the planning stage. I have my protagonists: 4 girls. (This will lead to a question I will post later in this post.) I have maps, a language, and most of the plot sorted out in my head.

The world is called Ola, and it is like one gigantic forest. In this I basicly thought, what would my dream world look like. My immeadiate answer was trees.

I will also address my language, since it has been commented on many times before (not mine, but language in general on this thread.) It is called Isca-augay, which translates directly into "scribe-language". It is only used mainly in old scrolls and ceremonies. Now, I'm no linguist. I, in fact, only speak 2 languages: English and Pig Latin. ( :rolleyes: ) However, I drew from those strengths. My language is mostly a spoof on pig-latin. Here is my complicated process:
1) I turn the English word into Pig Latin.
2) I add and/or remove letters depending on the part of speech of word.
FOR EXAMPLE:
House would translate distantly to Ohay. Similar, yet distant enough to be unrecognizable.

I have written many other things. I have written a few short stories, but I mostly write poetry. One short story I'm very fond, not to mention proud, of is "The Spire of Hope." I wrote it for a Reading assignment, and I think it is the best thing I have written to date. It is uneditted, yet I shan't get around to editing it for a long while. However, it is available on fictionpress.net. I'm under the pen name of Blissfully Unaware, if you want to check me out. You can also find many of my poems there.

Okay, here are my questions:

1) How do you overcome gender barriers? For example: my 4 protags are female, being as I'm female. My problem? I don't know how to write a male character. I've tried, and I've failed miserably. Any advice?

Okay, my mind has completely gone blank, and with this blankness has gone my questions. Oh well.

I await your replies!

Olorin_TLA

05-09-2004, 06:10 PM

Ah, genders...;)...always tricky for peopleto know if a woman/man woulds actually act as they've written it I guess. :) It's nice to hear all your progtags are women: I ugess it's ok that most of mine are men (there are women in abundence in non-main roles, or "everyperson/background roles", just not so manym as main characters) it's simply that I'm a man, and I tend to think of my characters are being somewhat like me, so a lotendup male. :)
Well, what do you mean by failed? Could you give an example of you writing a male charatcer (if you can write female characters I'm sure you can write male ones)? I mean all human beings are varied, so it'd be foolish for anyone to think of them in terms of anything but biology as being easilly sorted into 2 groups (and even then...), so there's a lot of freedom in your characterisation. Make sure you don't go for any stereotypes, unless the charatcer's intended to be one. Well, I can't really think of any tips to give unless you could post or PM an example of your writing of a male character; who knows, maybe they're fine after all?

As for me, to answer the thread-starter, yep, I write serious fantasy. I've been influenced first by "Fanstasy" in general, which I found before Tolkien. It's been in my life for ages, like the air I breathe...I can't place it exactly with titles or dates, but it's always been there. Some clear examples would be some childnres books with dragons and wizards (non-Tolkien inspired It would seem), Enid Blyton, and then post-Tolkien stuff like Fighting Fantasy RPG novels, other Unplacable Fantasy &...Warhammer. But there were mnay earlier ones...:) Hell, even Rupert had a wizard (and talking bears!) It's basically like asking Homer whether he was inspired by Greeks myths! ;) All quite Tolkien & D&D inspired. Then I found Tolkien at 11 years old. But I do think Tolkien has had an even stronger influence over time...his take on magic, for instance. Now my plots are my own, except I do have a dragon-slaying, because I love them :) , and I do have "Dark Lord"-syndrome. HOWEVER: I don't think that's from Tolkien. You see, in books (and RPGs and other plot-driven games) I've never been much moved by a protagonist's desire for gold or fame etc. What I want is to do some good. Whether it be an adventurer in an RPG aving some forsaken prisoners on a hellish island, or the huge (yet small) scale of the War of the Ring and Frodo's sacrifices to save the world, I want the plot to mean something, to not just be some guy out to get glory. And so if it happens on a large scale, you've gotot be up against some great deadly force. And mortal overlords just aren't the same, imho, for the most part. They're not threatning enough, for they are in the end subject to the same weaknesses as everyone else. But a Power that would be a terror to go up against is one way of achieving the kind of...meaningful...chararcters I like. Just one way.
Now I'm trying to introduce some new ideas in without upsetting the world of my stories. I'm aware that a lot of what I have has been influenced to varying degrees - hell, the whole fantasy package with its deities, magic, Elves,medieval-like era, etc, is basically a "template", and once used as a starting point, is nearly impossible to remove from your works it features in! I'm aware that had Tolkien come along today, I wouldnot have used ideas so, but only did so becuase even before I was aware of him those things were so widespread as to seem common-thread ideas, like space-ships and aliens in sci-fi (yeah, I know loads of sci-fi has neither, you know what I mean).
But I'm also aware that in the end it's plot, not setting, that matters. And with that, I'm satisfied. :) Now I just need to twiddle the 'metaphysics'...urgh, headaches. (I'm like the inquisitve reader to myself - always checking if there are situations where so-and-so should or could have done this, or why didn't they simply do this-and-that, etc. :) )

Phew, it's been really nice to get this out. :)

I'm just about to sleep, but I'll try to read your short story. :)

Sirithheruwen

05-10-2004, 04:07 PM

Regarding male characters, you asked for an example. I don't have one on hand, since I scrapped most of them, but they just seem really "flat" or two-dimensional. I don't know reallly how my characters would act in a certain situation, or what they would say, or anything! It's very frustrating! :mad: Unless maybe I wrote a gay character...hmmm...it would probably be a little harder, but it could get interesting!And mortal overlords just aren't the same, imho, for the most part. They're not threatning enough, for they are in the end subject to the same weaknesses as everyone else. What about "Wizard of Oz" type of characters? Where you think they are all great and (possibly) immortal and all-powerful, but they're really just mortals taking up that guise? I think those characters are very interesting and add for a good plot twist at the end. Your thoughts?

Happy Writing!

Aiwendil

05-10-2004, 04:24 PM

Sirithheruwen wrote:
I will also address my language, since it has been commented on many times before (not mine, but language in general on this thread.) It is called Isca-augay, which translates directly into "scribe-language". It is only used mainly in old scrolls and ceremonies. Now, I'm no linguist.

My advice is that unless you are a linguist, or a very knowledgeable amateur, you avoid making fictional languages a critical component of the story. Tolkien was onto something with his idea that a world must be thoroughly self-consistent (which includes the evolution of languages) to be believable - even if the reader doesn't notice it.

Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't use fictional languages at all. I'd just avoid overusing them.

1) How do you overcome gender barriers? For example: my 4 protags are female, being as I'm female. My problem? I don't know how to write a male character. I've tried, and I've failed miserably. Any advice?

Males and females aren't really fundamentally that different. I think you can probably write male characters better than you realize. You may be over-analyzing your own writing.

On the other hand, I'm fairly miserable at writing fiction, so maybe you shouldn't give my advice too much credence.

Sirithheruwen

05-10-2004, 04:31 PM

My advice is that unless you are a linguist, or a very knowledgeable amateur, you avoid making fictional languages a critical component of the story. Tolkien was onto something with his idea that a world must be thoroughly self-consistent (which includes the evolution of languages) to be believable - even if the reader doesn't notice it. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't use fictional languages at all. I'd just avoid overusing them.

Hmmm...well, as I stated above, it's is the scribe-language, used mainly in old scrolls. These scrolls are very crucial to the story, especially the plot. They are not, so far, used in any other part of the story crucially, except maybe mentioned once or twice. So I don't think I am overusing them as of yet, but I'll look out for it! Thanks!

Imladris

05-10-2004, 05:07 PM

Sirithheruwen , do you know any men or boys in your immediate family? If you do, study them, see what makes them tick, and then that might help you write male characters. :)

Olorin_TLA

05-10-2004, 05:41 PM

Ok, random idea! Perhaps you could pretend one of the guys from the Barrowdowns just appeared inexplicably in a story of yours, and write a bit their and everyone else's reactions in a post here. I still thinki you might be being too hard on yourself. :)

As for Wizard of Oz guys...yep, they can be good. So long as the opposition seems like something worth making sacrifices to get rid of (doesn't matter if it is a Wizard of Oz like character, unless it's revelaed in a really, really lame way ("Frodo! The Ring was harmless after all!Sorry about the mental anguish...have a lolly!")) :)

Thinking some more about how Tolkien influenced me...I've always loved ancient myths, but they don't really have much cohesion (right word?) to them - each story makes sense on its own terms, but when grouped together with others can become very contradictory (esp. Greek ones). So I guess, reading all of Tolkein's work on ideas such as fea, etc, that he made me try to make sure my stories all were 'watertight' from that point of view. Unfortunately, it feels like a chore sometimes. :(

Sirithheruwen

05-10-2004, 05:55 PM

Olorin_TLA: Oh yeah, I can just see that...Mr. B-W: "Thread Closed! Thread Closed!"
NO, really, though, that's a good idea, for practice at least. I'll try it out! :)

Imladris: That is a very good idea too. I do have my dad I could study a bit. I can just see it: "Hey, Dad, what would you do if the entire fate of the world rested on your shoulders? How would that make you feel?" ;)

Nurumaiel

05-12-2004, 03:26 PM

Do I write serious fantasy? It depends on how the word 'serious' is being defined. If it means that I take it seriously by working hard and trying to make it good, then yes I do, not just with my fantasy but everything I write. If it means that I intend to at least attempt to get it published, I'm afraid I don't take it that seriously. When I write books I'll do it for the sake of the characters, who are screaming to be brought into a story, and for my sake because I love to write. I don't necessarily care if I have an audience or not. The only 'publishing' I do besides letting family and friends read is on fictionpress.com, hoping against hope that I'll get some constructive criticism, but I've never really thought of real publishing.

How did I decide that I wanted to write fantasy? Everything. A walk through the woods at evening-time, a young laddie talking with his friend, a piece of news on the radio, a little tune on the tin whistle, and a rock over-hanging a stream started the book. I decided I wanted to write fantasy when I was five years old and a brother of mine and I started 'playing' Lord of the Rings and writing what adventures Sam's children had. That's how fantasy-writing started for me.

I don't want to give too much of my book away before it's finished, but it is a fantasy book without a name (actually the first in a few books... I act these things out and they just don't stop), centered around a soldier in a very hideous war and two young boys (and very young, as well, only about eleven or twelve) who just want to go home and see their family again. They live on an island called Enare, which is part of the country Trenia though it is a separate landform. I am working on a language, which is called Trenian because the Trenians speak it. I actually don't really write it out in order, because if I come up with a good scene and I let it go until I approach that point in the book I don't like it anymore, whether it was good or not, and I don't put it in. When there isn't a need to write a future scene I just go in sequence. As far as going in sequence, I'm nearly finished with the first chapter, though I've been working for quite a long time. Before I began the process of actually writing the book, however, I wanted to know what it is. I gave the characters time to develop themselves in my mind, for the geography of the land in the peoples in it to become clear, and so on. After that I pulled random scenes out of my head and acted all the characters out to further understand what they were like. When I was confident I knew them and the world they were in, I began writing.

Has Tolkien influenced my writing? Indeed he has. I don't imitate his writing style, nor do I copy him, so to say, but everything I hear and see influences my writing. Little things that were said or done, whether in real life or in another book, I take and put in, then expand upon it and let my imagination run away with it until it becomes something entirely original.... perhaps even the plot for the book itself, or one of the main subplots. Calling it a 'starting point' would be appropriate, I think. I try to have a notebook and pencil to take down what people say and do. One little smile from someone not a week ago introduced a main character in my book! A lad said 'Thanks' when I handed him a baseball that had gone right by him and a whole scene was created (yes, I know I'm inspired really easily, but I get scared in the dark really easily, too... my imagination takes hold). Now, Tolkien also influences my writing in the way that when I read his works I write better. If I'm reading something that is extremely basic (usually a dialogue-only book) I find myself tempted to write the same way and it's awful trying to keep from it, and worse than that writing doesn't seem fun anymore. If I'm reading a real book, with good description, dialogue, plot, and everything else, writing is absolutely lovely and I can write well.

littlemanpoet asked: "How do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?" I can't makes my heroes do anything. They arrive in my head and take their own views on everything. All I have to do is write down what they're saying and doing. Sometimes it is a bit annoying that I don't have a real control over them but so far they have been real enough personalities, regardless of whether people can relate to them or not. If they are real people I let it go. I don't really care if my readers can relate to them or not, because around my home in this age they probably couldn't. If they can't relate in any way to Tom Playfair or Percy Wynn they can't relate to my characters, because my characters treasure everything Tom and Percy do, and despise everything Tom and Percy do. Most of my readers can't relate to Tom and Percy, therefore they cannot relate to my characters. Most of my readers don't know what real flaws and real virtues are. I'm still learning! As long as my characters are certainly human (or name another race, though I haven't encountered any in my books yet) I let them have their own way. Yes, it is annoying I don't have a control over my character but at the same time it is a blessing, for that way I don't have to worry about making life-like personalities, etc. They have them because they came with them, whether readers agree or not. Now I'll stop talking to myself.

Am I writing transition fantasy or immersion fantasy? It would fit best in the latter, I suppose (except... mine isn't our world in ancient times or in future times, it's a completely different world... I think... that's why I add 'I suppose'). I tried the former once and couldn't make it work. That was where I found a problem with making the character a person one could relate with. Someone who came from modern times was tricky, because while I live in modern times (or I suppose I wouldn't be writing this now) I am awfully old-fashioned and can't fit in with the times. I've not met many people who are old-fashioned like I am, so it was hard to make a modern character work, because if I were to know what I was writing about they wouldn't really be that modern. The other stumbling block for me on that was that people from modern times have to come from somewhere. The only places in the world I really know are places I consider little homes of mine... mine, exactly. I don't want my characters coming from there. I like reading transition fantasy well enough but I'd have to be prepared to seriously work myself if I wanted to write it.

There was some discussion on conflict (though no conflicts in those discussions!.... sorry, couldn't resist), and I thought I'd consider aloud here what the conflict in my book is. One conflict is obvious; it's how the story begins. One nation declares war on another. That's conflict enough. But for the main character's personal conflict (by the way, I'm not quite sure who the main character is... it might be Chirfan or it might be not, but I'm using him for now because he was the original main character), it's the simple fact that he's a Catholic (and that is why I'm not sure if my world is a completely different world or not. Could the Catholic Faith exist in other worlds? I highly doubt the Incarnation would happen twice... so if there was no Incarnation would there be Catholics? I prefer not to touch upon the subject and just cast it aside, and if the reader really wants to know they just can't, because I don't)... he's constantly conflicting with Satan, because he's a rather good Catholic and that just isn't acceptable to the devil. And then oftentimes he'll have to choose God over king and country and that can be a challenge sometimes. I won't go any further... that's the basics of it.

"Which of the four MICE categories is the main thread tying together the story you're writing?" I don't quite know yet... it might change at any moment. For the time it seems Milieu. I'll go through the process of elimination. I know it isn't Idea... there haven't even been any subplots suggesting that yet. Character? Well, of course the characters will grow (please God they won't decide to shrink!! I just put horrible thoughts in my head), but the story isn't centered around that. Event? Chirfan is one of the people who has to try to set things right... he's a soldier. But he isn't do everything single-handed. He doesn't have to 'get the girl,' because she's no princess ever man in the kingdom is out to get or anything. She's just a sweet little farmer's daughter who lives in the tiny village he left behind that he loves... rather like Sam and Rosie, if I'm to give a LOTR example. And he won't become a king at the end, save the little king of his own little family when he gets to go home from the war. That being said, the story would best fit into Milieu.

And looking at another subject that came up, the problem of writing male characters successfully. Nobody's ever complained about my male characters being unrealistic, and I find them a lot easier to do than female characters, though I'm learning the latter. It comes from having grown up in a little isolated place in the middle of a forest with a pack of brothers and no sisters. Besides, the kind of plots I like to write wouldn't seem too realistic with main female characters. In the world I've invented, women don't go fight, and so having one in the war would be uncanon to my own work. I concur with what Imladris said. My brothers and their friends gave me the training. They became characters in my books. Not them, but little aspects of their personalities as the starting point and then off to a delightful characters.

Now I'll go. Sorry for going on so long. I was reading the thread and writing as I went along, and it made it drawn-out (previewing it, it actually wasn't that bad). I had fun, though. Hopefully I wasn't too much of a bore.... or, more than likely, completely confusing.

Sirithheruwen

05-12-2004, 04:09 PM

How did I decide that I wanted to write fantasy? Everything.

Nurumaiel brought up an interesting point. When the question was asked, it was pretty vague. Up until now, people had been answering the names of books and the names of authors that inspired them. While I have nothing against those answers, and I agree with most of what was said, I too have been inspired by "A walk through the woods at evening-time" and such. Actually, my entire world is based on trees. I love trees, and I met many on my frequent walks around town that I wouldn't hesitate to call my friends.
yes, I know I'm inspired really easily, but I get scared in the dark really easily, too... my imagination takes hold

Is that a bad thing? :p

That was where I found a problem with making the character a person one could relate with. Someone who came from modern times was tricky, because while I live in modern times (or I suppose I wouldn't be writing this now) I am awfully old-fashioned and can't fit in with the times. I've not met many people who are old-fashioned like I am, so it was hard to make a modern character work, because if I were to know what I was writing about they wouldn't really be that modern.

Well, consider Tolkein. He wrote LOTR many years ago, and it may be called "old-fashioned" by some, but it is still a huge classic. At the time he was writing the book he might have been called "old-fashioned" because of his views on technology and industry. And yet the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire" is loved by many. (Except Jackson...grrr... :mad: ) I mean, who didn't root for the hobbits? I would say go with what you call your "old-fashioned" characters and not try to adapt to the times.

Could the Catholic Faith exist in other worlds?

Hmmm...that's a toughie... I would say that you might want to try something similar to the Catholic religion...but...Ahhh! Brain freeze! Lost my train of thought there! Well, I'll just say that you might want to try to avoid using any modern religions unless you are writing about the past history of our world (which I can tell you are probably not). That's just my two cents.

Ahhh, yes, the MICE question. I had meant to reply to that, but I didn't have time or some other excuse.

Character is the story in which the character herself is the thread, and she is less than she needs to become, and by the end of the book you see how she has become what she needed to. This is typical modern fiction.

Event fiction is the classic kind. Something bad happens, or something bad always happens, and the protagonist of the story is the hero who must set things right, and get the girl while he's at it, and become king at the end, to boot. The modern romance is a good example of this story.

I think my story (as far as I can tell in the planning stage) is/will be a happy medium between the two. Something bad happens at the beginning of the story, and the protag I start with wants to set it right, except she doesn't consider herself to be the protag at all. She's meek and timid and very afraid of death. By the end of the story she isn't (I hope!) and that is where the "Character" comes in.

Phew! That was a long post (to me at least) but it has inspired me oh so much! Thank you! :)

Lhundulinwen

05-12-2004, 07:19 PM

Well, I enjoy every minute that I write. I'm deep into chapter two, and I know I'll need to do some serious rewriting. But I *love* to write. In between high school, helping my parents farm, keeping up with my friends, (one of which I probably won't see for several months to a year, so I'm trying to spend a lot of time with her), I write every minute I can.
I write characters and stories because I want to; not because I think I'll make a six figure book deal. I have wrote several short stories, short shorts, and a pretty large amount of poetry. Some of which has won some awards and have appeared in a few anthologies.
I think to have a really good story, you need large conflicts (eg. a quest, getting the girl/guy) and smaller conflicts (getting to work on time, not killing fellow people on quest with you). All of these elements must be tied together in a conclusive ending.
I had read Narnia and some other really obscure fantasy books, along with myths and legends before I read LOTR. So, I was writing before LOTR, but after LOTR, my writing had a more epic and grand style to it. I am inspired largely of my own fears: heights, the dark ( I live in the middle of nowhere-woods after dark, wolves, scary!!), the unknown in general. I take these fears and push them to the limit. I model some of my characters off of one or two traits from each of my friends. Can be quite interesting. ;)
Right now my novel is not ready to see the light of day, but when I get done with the first draft, and am aprox. half way through the second re-write, a few (VERY few!!) choice people will get to have a peek. My good friend, who happens to be an English teacher, and another fellow writer, will all have a first row seat to be my cheerleaders and to catch my mistakes. After all, what are friends for? :p

Kitanna

05-12-2004, 08:18 PM

How do you decide to write fantasy? I don't think you really decide it just kind of comes to you and you go with it. Atleast that's how it worked for me. I love to write fantasy because you don't have to stick to facts like historical fiction, you can make up the facts as you go. Not to mention it's kind of a release from boring every day life.

I'm in the middle of writing a series, but not to get it published, but just because it's fun to write. I had always been writing some form of fantasy, but not until I read LOTR did it take on a greater purpose (good vs.evil, stuff like that). So my writing has a lot of parells to LOTR. But hey I figure I'm not hurting anyone because I'm not publishing it.

I figure you can't really write a fantasy nowadays without having something Tolkien in it. Not always the case, but when you think about it most fantasy books can and are compared to his.

Kransha

05-12-2004, 08:25 PM

My, my, this thread has been quite a while in it's existence, and yet I never noticed its presence on this forum.

On a first note, to discuss Tolkeinion influence. I cannot, by right's say that I was inspired per se by Prof. T., but I have leeched my share from his work. I took a lot to develope my own more amateur tales, including the varying realm of character, plot, and miscellaneous developement for most available genres out there. It wasn't hard to borrow a lot, in fact I found myself unable to help it. I have one friend who has never read Tolkein, and seems to have written a slightly mediocre story that is exactly like it, which he says is all foolishness (an issue I must discuss with him at length in the future).

Something I took from the Tolkein archives was a fuller branching system. Since I find that, even though stories told from a solitary first person point of view are still intriguing, going more prominently in depth into a single character, it is best for my more complex storyline to go with 'tree branches' in both plot and character. It is, in all seriousness, the easiest way to make a third person POV more 'grabbing' to both reader and writer, developed or underdeveloped. If a story's plot splits into multiple plots, still centered around a focal point, it works better for more diverse stories. Tolkein's different books within books, focused on the different aspects of each journey, was what did initially inspire me as far as that section of the story. I had to split my story into sections, each storyline rotating almost per chapter to avoid to much resemblance to Tolkein on a whole. Otherwise, I still have plenty of things I've stolen *nervous cackling beneath breath*.

I have two stories in the works that can be classified as fantasy.

Story A would be slightly more fantastical, but with a real root and base. You could say I cheapened the story a little by setting it in an actual era of Earth, rather than formulating a legendarium for the tale. It is set, as best as I could tell for the storyline, in the 16th Century of our world, and has enough twists to knock it into proverbial fantasticity (is that even a word I wonder? As you can see, my writing's prime limitation is the pomposity of my vocabulary, everywhere). Using the legendarium already created by the people of that era, based on religion, belief, superstition flowing around at the time. It works in context, since said context is realistic, but fantastic with the superimposing of fantasy (of that time period) on that period's reality, merging history with the mythos of the past, present, and some futuristic dabblings.

There are many characters in mine, which is genre-less on technicality, but many share generic traits with stereotypes just because the obviousness of their personas is needed, they are meant to be translucent, but others borrow more complex traits from Tolkein legendarium characters and characters from other mythos. There are, as I said, many. Some of them have intertwined pasts, but those who are symbolically related do not actually meet until much later in the story, for developement puposes. I found it more interesting, and, dare I say it, funner to slowly juxtapose the characters who shared the least (both in past history and personality) beside each other on the quest I have them all seeking, though they don't know their counterparts are seeking the same thing they do. The tale is not about intrigue, so I don't dwell on mytery, but I take pride in my twisting plot turns and suspense, so I have utilized that aspect to develope character, just as Tolkein did (Namely as inspired by the chapter from Fellowship involving the Barrow-Wights, a more horrific upheaval from Shire's peace that developed Frodo suprisingly as a character). They all come together at the end, not necessarily at allies, but together all the same, many battling as they do so, thus the dubbing of my story as more of action piece, but tampered with all the philosophy I could muster.

Story B and more on A (character) when I have some time. Please comment, for I am eager for some form of creative criticism. I know I didn't supply much information, but recommendations on the whole plot-branching and practical archive of characters would be much appreciated. Also, more on my in detail responses to the other questions posed by this thread's first post forthwith....too...sleepy...

Nurumaiel

05-13-2004, 12:22 PM

Well, I'll just say that you might want to try to avoid using any modern religions unless you are writing about the past history of our world (which I can tell you are probably not).

And here's where the problem lies... in short, it's because I believe the Catholic Faith to be the Faith. I don't want to make up a religion that can't be better. It's because I'm a Catholic that I don't want them to be non-Catholics... it's horribly difficult to explain. I've decided the best thing to do would be just to leave it rather vague and never actually say one way or another, but let their actions and words give the readers a little idea of what they might be. Besides, I don't want to go too far on this subject, considering not everyone on the 'Downs are Catholics. :)

Lhundulinwen mentioned very briefly drafts in her post, which brings me to ask a question to you all. How do you do second drafts? In all my past works I've only had first drafts. I'm the type of person who is inspired, writes it out, and then loves it too much to change it in anyway, regardless of whether it would be made better or not. I feel more in that case like my story is a well-rehearsed play rather than something actually happening. Aside from that, I also simply do not know how to do a second and third (and however many more one wants) draft... if anyone could give any simple guidelines and suggestions I would be most grateful. Most books around the house tell 'how to write a novel' and never say anything about numerous drafts... There, I've admitted one of my faults in writing. :p

mark12_30

05-13-2004, 12:33 PM

Nuru,

I felt the same as you, til I had people I really, really respected review my work. When lindil questioned my use of a dragon, for instance, and suggested a troll would make more sense, I knew I had believability issues. And I didn't want to give up the dragon! So-- I had to lay a lot more groundwork, and show that the dragon had been around, before he showed up and wreaked his havoc. I had to make the presence of the dragon plausible.

Without lindil's advice I wouldn't have made those changes. But with lindil's changes it is a much better story.

Now, it doesn't work *at all* with someone you don't respect. (Don't bother.)

So-- my advice would be, put a copy of your original story in a very safe place. Then make another copy and hand it to someone you really respect who has a Big Red Pen-- littlemanpoet, at FWW, has a large team of people with Big Red Pens-- and watch them wreak havoc with it. It's a little horrifying-- because you love it so-- and that's why I say put a copy in a safe place so you always have the original.

lmp is on chapter 18 of The Fairy Wife. He's bled all over it! AAAUGH!!! But it is all good. When he is all done, I will "publish" a second edition (the first edtion will not completely disappear.) And it will be much more believable, more bulletproof, tighter, more believable.

Beievability is key to enchantment, which is key to eucatastrophe. So believability is important-- to me, to the reader.

How's that for a ramble? (...join FWW...) ;)

Imladris

05-13-2004, 01:21 PM

Nuru, on religion, this is my advice: Keep it vague, don't name the religion as that will probably be a turn off. I don't know much about the Catholic religion, but keep their customs in the story and if a Catholic comes upon your story, he can mentally smile as he recognizes them. And if one isn't a Catholic, one can look at the story and appreciate how noble, etc, the characters are.

As for second drafts, I read a rule once: Second draft = first draft minus ten percent . I've found that this is extremely easy to do and the best part is that you don't even loose a bunch of the core important stuff or the stuff that you've come to love. After you do your own editing of the ten percent, then have an editor read it and then you'll cut off even more fat from the flavourful meat. :D

Also, before any editing takes place, put the manuscript in a drawer and just let it rest for a few weeks. That way it will be fresh and you can easily see parts that won't flow, etc.

Eowyn Skywalker

05-13-2004, 02:39 PM

Ooooh... I've finally found a thread like this. Very helpful indeed, as I have been working on some fantasy and sci-fi stuff for quite a while in my spare time.

In my main story, and by which I mean it has an awful lot of stories built off of it, the main characters are female, with very interesting pasts, and futures. My problem with this story is it works in the "Three Worlds", and I'm not sure whether the heavy fantasy base works with the other two worlds, of Terra/Earth, and the future, which is very Star Wars like. Does anyone have any good tips on combining fantasy with sci-fi, and not giving the sci-fi characters a heck of an edge, even though their technology is actually a form of magic? Yeah, it's very confusing. But at least there are a few male character to balance the two main lightsideish females, and the one darkside female character.

In the other one, it's straight out fantasy, and the main character's parents die very early on. I mean like chapter two. But I'm not exactly a great writer in that genre, and she hardly reacts, even though another character appears in to destract her awfully fast. I need to expand the scene, and could use tips on reacting to death of her entire family. I suppose the best way for you to understand what I mean by lack of reaction, you'd have to read the story. (PG13 for violence)

If anyone's interested in reviewing, I'm on fictionpress as Elf with a lightsaber.

I quite like this thread, lot's of good advice. Please help me here!

-Eowyn Skywalker

Olorin_TLA

05-13-2004, 02:49 PM

For myself, I write...and as I write, I'll cross out, edit, insert, 3the text. If I readit orcomeback to it later, that'll ahppen again...sometimes I might redo a paragraph, but usually only if I knew I was unhappy with it at the time of writing.

There have been occasions, however, when I've done a section anew (not having the original on me at the mo) and it usually ends up quite different, (eg: more detail & indpeth, as opposed to a semi-summary one time). But generally, I don't have drafts - I have writing, with each line of paper sprouting notes and changes, and sentences and parapgrahs living in the margins with convoluted arrows directing them to their new homes. :D

Olorin_TLA

05-13-2004, 02:55 PM

Well, Éowyn, it might not sink in for her that quick, and might take a whule, as it can in real life. Perhaps soon after something could happen, (or even a moment of silence could happen) which causes it to all sink i for her. :( Also, having her sometimes act as if her parents were still around could be one thing, sometimes - I know when my granny died I had dreams where she was still around, and asked if she was coming to visit once at lunch because I'd forgotten. And someone I knew mum died and the nedxt day he was wondering why she hadn't prepared his breakfast, when he remembered and it all sank in.

Saraphim

05-13-2004, 03:29 PM

I'm going to comment on something that you guys were talking about waaaaay up at the top of the page: gender in writing.

When I was a bit younger and first beginning to write, all my main characters were female. This isn't surprising, considering that I'm female. Anyway, lately, I've been trying out male MC's. The story I'm working the most on has six (or seven, haven't decided yet :D ) MC's and around half of them are male. The "ringleader", I suppose, evolved from a female to a male.

At any rate, I found that my male characters are more believable than my female ones. My female ones either turn out Mary-Sueish, or wimpy, and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Does anyone have any good tips on combining fantasy with sci-fi
Well, it looks like you're off to a good start, with your magic-technology relationship. That sounds quite interesting. I suppose something I could say is not to overload the story with complicated things of either type. This might confuse people who are fans of one and not of the other. Perhaps you might have a character who is illiterate to both technology and magic to sort of introduce things to the reader in a more subtle way.

Hope this helps. If not, then sorry for the time waste. You'll never get it back. Mwahahaha...:smokin:

Olorin_TLA

05-13-2004, 03:38 PM

I'd actually say not to care whether people "get it" at all, because tthey will - iut's only when people start worrying that they dumb down, and then they do it to a ridiculous level. If you don't want them to have some kind of huge advantage in a fight over the fantasy people, itcould be aharsh future where mostpeople are dirt poor with only poor qwuality black-marketweaposn or somehting like that.

Lhundulinwen

05-13-2004, 05:39 PM

As for drafts, I generally edit as I go along, as far as grammar and sentence structure. But when I get done with a piece, I set down and read the entire thing out loud. I ask myself a few questions as I go- Would this character say that? What is his dialect and accent? Can a reader 'hear' my character's way of speaking? Is there clues along the way about the outcome of the story? Are they spaced out? Does the plot have a climax? Is the conflict strong enough?
It takes a while to rewrite the whole project usually, and your project should shrink. I allways take out the irrelevent descriptions, the overwriting, etc. For every ten pages you may end up with 5 - 9 pages. But then again, you may find the need for an entire new character (it has happened before) and your story may grow.
I generally end up doing three to four drafts. It helps to work on something else for a week or two between edits. Some people have more drafts, and others can't bear to cut anything. Its best to find a happy median in between those extremes. You'll know when your on your last draft. It'll just seem as if you won't ever do better, or that the characters have reached "ripeness". Then its time to think about publishing, or not. It all depends on you.
If you want more information on publishing and writing in general, try The Writer magazine, and a book with the dragon from the Hobbit (I think it is anyway) called Writing Sci-Fi and Fantasy. (Please correct me if that's not the whole title!). And two good books on general writing is Escape into the Open by Elizabeth Berg and a book that's shaped like a block, The Writer's Block.

Olorin_TLA

05-13-2004, 05:41 PM

Onew thing I'd like todowould be carry a tap recorder around,since sometimesI have great dialogue or narrative that gets lost in the transition from thought to page. :(

Lhundulinwen

05-13-2004, 06:45 PM

A lot of writers carry notebooks or tablets, even index cards, with them to jot down ideas. I never go anywhere without pen or pencil and generally have a notebook with me. Though I have written on napkins and shoping bags before! Does anyone else carry something with them? Like a special notebook or pen?

Kitanna

05-13-2004, 06:58 PM

I usually carry a notebook of some kind with me, Once I wrote on a receipt so I didn't lose my idea. However my pen is usually running out of ink so I have to run around to find a quick replacement.

Eowyn Skywalker

05-13-2004, 07:04 PM

Well, Éowyn, it might not sink in for her that quick, and might take a whule, as it can in real life. Perhaps soon after something could happen, (or even a moment of silence could happen) which causes it to all sink i for her.
Ahh... that helps there. So I suppose that the fact that Alenece is acting funny now fits. Thanky. Lot's.

Perhaps you might have a character who is illiterate to both technology and magic to sort of introduce things to the reader in a more subtle way.
Tee hee... I have a few of those already. I suppose that should help explain the combined technology with magic, and her lack of skill when it comes to running then. No, my characters aren't Mary-Sues.

I usually carry a notebook of some kind with me, Once I wrote on a receipt so I didn't lose my idea. However my pen is usually running out of ink so I have to run around to find a quick replacement.
I do that too, but I carry a pencil and sharpener... that way I don't have to worry about running out of ink! Jeez, I have a lot paper used up though. You'd be surprised what I'll write on...

-Eowyn Skywalker

Estelyn Telcontar

05-14-2004, 10:00 AM

Since the Books forum is really reserved for discussions of Tolkien's books, I'm moving the writers' threads to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to share ideas there!

Nurumaiel

05-14-2004, 10:52 AM

Keep it vague, don't name the religion as that will probably be a turn off. I don't know much about the Catholic religion, but keep their customs in the story and if a Catholic comes upon your story, he can mentally smile as he recognizes them. And if one isn't a Catholic, one can look at the story and appreciate how noble, etc, the characters are.

Imladris, thank you for that. There are still a few problems I have to work out, the main one being the Eucharist... This ties in with the problem I mentioned earlier. If this is an entirely different world than ours (which it very well may be) then there would be no Incarnation, and therefore could there be a Eucharist? I'll be even vaguer on this, because it isn't something I like to take artistic license with! As for Catholic readers, I fancy they'll have a few hints that won't be obvious to others... the characters' constant pleas to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede for them, though Mary in Trenian would be Mérali... thus far the characters have recited the Hail Mary once, but in their own language. Catholics might be able to guess, but non-Catholics would have a more difficult time.

Writing with the characters having certain religions, or none at all (atheism, unless I'm to throw in a character who as made that be a religion to him?), though not named inside the book, gives me a chance to do interesting things, such as how the characters will relate to each other. A Catholic and an atheist who are grand friends, or a Catholic and a Catholic who greatly dislike each other... the opportunity to put in really devout Catholics and those who are Catholics only by name but otherwise are not because they have abandoned all practice of their religion. Oh, this is grand, I am getting excited now. More and more characters spring into my head!

Thanks, Helen, for your advice. I suppose if I ever get the nerve to do it I'm going to do it the whole way... that means getting someone who won't balance praise and criticism evenly to spare my feelings. If there's more bad than good I want it all told to me. I can't say as much for my story, but as far as that goes my feelings could not be hurt. My story and the characters in it might be devastated, however. ;)

I usually end up writing in my head because I forget to bring a notebook. Ah well... I'm going places today and tomorrow so I'll just use the posts I've read as a reminder to bring a little notebook. I have a darling pen that lasts nearly forever and doesn't show through on the opposite side of the page, and I have a little notebook about the size of a greeting card that is a binder... so I can add and remove paper at my pleasure! The main trouble is pockets. Most skirts are made with pockets. However I've discovered this temporary sling I've got on serves as an admirable pocket... though it hinders typing!

One thing I'd like todowould be carry a tap recorder around,since sometimesI have great dialogue or narrative that gets lost in the transition from thought to page.

I sympathize, Olorin. I had acted out a grand dialogue on the way to a baseball game. It was a bit of speech between two good friends who had grown up with each other and were now serving in the King's court. One was the son of the farmer, the other the son of the soldier. The son of the farmer seemed, as the dialogue went on, a bit insane, saying he was the rightful King of the land, and his friend expressed concern for him but also for his King, fearing the latter might come to harm. He was a bit harsh with the farmer's son, saying that if harm came to the King he would not spare his friend's life, much as it would grieve him. If I had written it down I might have been able to sort through everything weak and flabby and save everything grand and write out a wonderful scene, but it is completely lost to my mind now and even the general idea seems ridiculous. Ah well...

I'm going off to search for that little notebook. :)

Sirithheruwen

05-17-2004, 06:10 PM

LIttle notebooks are a great idea. I don't carry one around with me everywhere, but I do have I notebook that I write all of my stories in, no matter how much the differ from each other. As a matter of fact, I have at least four to five stories that I started, but never finished. My characters become stale and the plot moldy (Well, I already said stale). WHich brings me to several questions:
How do you keep the original plot running smoothly?
I think my problem is, I rush things too much and get (or try to get) from Point A to Point B too fast. How do you avoid that?
Another one of my current problems is that I'm afraid to take the plunge on this story. (Remember, this is still the planning stage.) HOw do you just suck it up and start? WEll, that's all...have fun! :)

Imladris

05-17-2004, 06:41 PM

I have never finished a long story -- just short stories -- but I've heard that you don't write a story. You let the story write itself. If you try to hard, it won't happen. That's essentially what Tolkien did as well. I remember in another letter that he had no idea who Aragorn was, etc. If you like, I will get the letter in it's entirety for you.

As for afraid to take the plunge, you can always re-write. How many times did Tolkien restart LotR? Heck, how many times did he add/change new characters?

As for characters and plots getting moldy, I have no idea.

Edit: If you want good info on writing (and if you don't crude references and bad language :rolleyes: ), read Stephen King's book On Writing. It's very good and has lots of encouragement and tips.

Saraphim

05-17-2004, 08:50 PM

I was as surprised as Frodo and Sam when Faramir rose from the grass in Ithilien
Something like that.

Anyway, this, to me, is a beautiful glimpse of the writing process. To read this, as a fan of Faramir and his exceedingly well-developed character, and to learn that Tolkien himself had no idea of his existence is phenomenal.

It shows that writing is indeed not a job, but an art form, and one I hope to be slightly as good as Tolkien at.

Not nearly to that point, nor will I be for quite a long time. :D

mark12_30

05-18-2004, 07:55 AM

Saraphim-- Yes. I love that quote. This is the quote that inspired me to start writing:

"I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never before been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlorien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horselords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but "Fangorn Forest was an unforseen adventure. I had never heard of the House of Eorl nor of the Stewards of Gondor. Most disquieting of all, Saruman had never been revealed to me, and I was as mystified as Frodo at Gandalf's failure to appear on September 22."

I love this quote, especially the part about Strider sitting in the corner. If Tolkien could be baffled by who and what he wrote, thought I, then so can I. Easily.

I sat at the PC, and the first thing I wrote was a man running down a hill somewhere north of Bree. It went nowhere. The second thing I wrote was about a hobbit in a train station. Thank God. I'd call it a turning point in my life, I think... Two novels later, Bolco remains a huge favorite with me.

Lhundulinwen

05-18-2004, 05:43 PM

I too have never finished a larger work. Of course, I had never thrown myself in heart and soul into a project before now, except a few wonderful poems. I knew how to do a magnificent poem; find a strong emotion, memory or idea and open my mind and let my fingers type or write whatever came out. Editing comes so much later. Editing too soon always sucked the soul out of my poems.

Now I understand how to do larger works also. Its the same process except a lot longer, at least for me. Within the first pages five pages of my quietly growing novel, I got stuck. I had no idea how to move the plot along. I never ouline, (it makes my projects all seem so predictable), so I was staring at a roadblock. I was already in love with my characters, so I couldn't just throw them away.

I set the whole thing aside for about two weeks. I was outside running, (after a cow no less. Ah, the joys of agriculture) and it hit me. I knew who, where, what and when. It all fell into place. I learned a lot about my characters in that flash. A hidden past, a hidden talent, a few new gifts... it really was magic.

Which is why I LOVE to write. I don't understand where the inspiration comes from in most of my projects. It is really hard just to let yourself go, and not listen to your inner critic, but when you do, it is such a wonderful feeling. Its like dreaming while being conscious, directing your own personal movie or floating above the story you are creating. Sure, most of what you write will be edited out, but for me, this is the only way to get the meat of the story and those little details we all love in our stories.

Eowyn Skywalker

05-18-2004, 10:29 PM

I was already in love with my characters, so I couldn't just throw them away.

I set the whole thing aside for about two weeks. I was outside running, (after a cow no less. Ah, the joys of agriculture) and it hit me. I knew who, where, what and when. It all fell into place. I learned a lot about my characters in that flash. A hidden past, a hidden talent, a few new gifts... it really was magic.
Indeed, I truly know what you mean. I too have fallen into ruts with characters that I love, and would never throw away, they have too much to them, too much work put into their past. Aand then suddenly it came to me. I know my character for who THEY are, and not the people that they are based on. Suddenly, they had a past, and a future.

A hidden past began to grow up, and suddenly there was such a difference... suddenly the characters had something to them. A girl from earlier, suddenly she was known as the heir to the throne cougharagroncough. Suddenly, a half-elf became known to who he really was... They fell into place. An Agent... suddenly he was known as the Emperor, explaining sooo much of the plot. It was like magic, as suddenly the worlds began to show themselves, and create an actual world to them. And all it took was setting the story aside for a while... now I'm rewriting it, and the characters actually are characters. I'm writting a sequel for the story that explains so much of the plot.

I have never finished half my stories... to be exact, I have two finished ones... not to count my short short stories. But these were just fanfictions. I have yet to complete my fiction based tales, and I will too! When characters grow so easily, they cannot be easily lost again. Especially when they are not Mary-Sues, but actual people.

All characters have something to them, it just takes time for them to show through. But someday they will, so never give up on them. I'm glad that I never trashed mine... they are actually going somewhere... as soon as I got the idea for magic based technology, I knew I had something, and had to rewrite so much of it, but the work is worth it... this story has a chance at survival.

-Eowyn Skywalker

Sirithheruwen

05-19-2004, 02:56 PM

Well, I started. Last night to be exact.

I was listening to the main theme for Requiem for a Dream when it came to me: the death scene of one of my characters I had been planning for the end of the book. Who knows if it'll even end like that, bu tit seemed a good start. If you happen to be listening to it at the exact same time you are reading this, you will realize it choreographs perfectly with the music. I'm so proud! :D

Well, I'm off to write! :D
Happy Writing!

Saraphim

05-19-2004, 04:42 PM

Almost all of my characters are based, at least loosly, on people I know. The main group of people in my story is based on my group of friends. They may not look the same, or indeed be the same gender, but there they are.

It came to me as I was watching one of my idiot friends light his shoelaces on fire, and another idiot friend spray his Cologne onto the said shoe today.

No, not that I need new friends. That the idiotic, yet lovable characters in my story are based on the idiots I know and love myself.

An odd tale, I know.

Lhundulinwen

05-19-2004, 07:44 PM

Congratulations Sirithheruwen! Starting can be really hard sometimes, even when you know basically where the story is going! Does anyone have a ritual or something they do especially when starting a project? I read about how one author always starts a new novel on January 8th every year. And how about music? I almost allways have some type of music going in the background. (Yes, I confess. It generally is FOTR or ROTK soundtrack, but hey they are really good music.)

Kitanna

05-19-2004, 08:04 PM

I have a little ritual I do when I write. I almost always listen to music. Mostly the ROTK soundtrack, but sometimes the Gladiator soundtrack of Gustav Holz's The Planets. If music cannot be played I'm usually in German class blocking out my teacher's annoying voice. I don't know if that counts as a ritual, but it's how I do it.

Saraphim

05-20-2004, 03:23 PM

Kitanna: I am also plagued by a German teacher with an annoying voice. You have my pity.

Anyway, I get some of my inspiration for stories and especially for fighting scenes from music. I listen to a lot of Tool, which is a great band and quite inspirational, for me at least. I recommend it, if you don't mind cursing.

When I'm writing a particularly profound scene, it often helps me to listen to a song that the scene relates to.

The way I see writing and writers is that they, (and people in general, actually) are genuinly affected by the things thay are exposed to.

My friend doesn't like to read or see movies, because he is afraid it will affect his writing and make it un-original. I keep telling him that whatever he does will affect his writing, but he doesn't listen. It could have something to do with the fact that I tell him to do stupid things with volatile chemicals as well, but oh well.

Imladris

05-20-2004, 03:28 PM

Watching TV does numb your mind...but I think that that is more of the dumb comedy/soap operas that do that...I don't think movies do, though I, too, am becoming a bit paranoid and worry that I'm watching too much TV.

However, if he's still concerned about it, you should tell your friend to read tons of books, because books will increasue and develope the imagination.

Nurumaiel

05-20-2004, 03:43 PM

I know how watching TV can numb your mind. I never watch TV unless there's a really good movie or such on. The worst movie I ever saw in my life was on TV, and if I hadn't kept on the defense while watching it, it might have infested my mind and affected my writing. To write better now I only watch movies that are good without a doubt.

It's the same way with the books I read. If I read books that are badly-written, etc. it influences my writing for the worst. Now I try to stick to only well-written books by trustworthy authors, such as Tolkien, Chesterton, Dickens, etc.

So, Imladris, when you say,

you should tell your friend to read tons of books, because books will increasue and develope the imagination.

I agree, but I suggest you mention to your friend to read good, well-written books unless he's able to resist the temptation of letting bad books influence his writing.

Sirithheruwen

05-20-2004, 04:27 PM

Congratulations Sirithheruwen!

Why, thank you! :)

I don't really have a ritual. I do listen to music, however. I prefer music without any words, it helps me concentrate better. The ROTK soundtrack is really good, as is the Pirates of the Caribbean one. However, I love love LOVE the theme for Requiem for a Dream. I also got an idea for a battle scene from the exact same music I got my death scene from. I don't think it will go in this book though, because there won't be many battle scenes. It also helps to write when I'm in a particularly emotional mood. Mad, sad, happy, whatever. It just helps to get my creative juices flowing. When I wrote said death scene, I was frustrated with my sisters, so I just went upstairs, turned on my music, and wrote.

I try not to watch TV also, and I don't really. Not that I have time to watch TV anyways. :rolleyes: Actually, one of my main characters came from a TV show -- don't laugh -- called Teen Titans. Hey, I told you not to laugh! The show wasn't particularly inspiring, but something triggered my creative juices. Ah well...

Happy Writings! :D

Sirithheruwen

05-23-2004, 01:40 PM

Hmmm....I wonder if LMP knows this thread has been resurrected. I should like to know how his novel is coming...

Lhundulinwen

05-23-2004, 09:10 PM

Nothing wrong with using a TV show like Teen Titans! I once wrote a 3 page journal entry on the first X-men movie. (Don't ask....I still like that movie!!)

Personally, I try not to read or watch television shows that are related to whatever subject I happen to be writting about, unless I'm writing nonfiction. (Which doesn't happen often.) But I read and watch a lot of TV & movies, but all of them must have an emotional strength to them, usually within the first 5 minutes, or I don't get into them.
Ex. The Mel Gibson movie The Patriot. I ended up crying during most of the film, just because it was so sad what all was sacraficed by this one man. So I watched it and obsorbed (sp) those feelings and threw them into a poem. That is the only reason to watch TV or a movie, at least for me.

Imladris

05-23-2004, 10:58 PM

I believe that tv has it's place in the writing area. As with everything else, you need to watch it with moderation, and when you do watch it, watch something that is unique, etc. But I think that the main main thing is that a writer must read. Must read everything: the classics, Shakespeare, etc. The combination of reading and television will fill you with good ideas...a fertile imagination.

I listen to music to primarily get into the mood. I find that music such as Linkin Park and soundtracks such as Edward Scissorhands does the trick very well. I was listening to Edward and I came up with the most awesome death for an RPG character.

Orual

05-24-2004, 02:26 PM

I think that being exposed to a wide variety of influences is a good thing. Of course, I think that when writing a book reading novels and short stories is the best thing to do...especially if you read a lot of different styles and authors. Reading plays can also be beneficial, and not only Shakespeare: Sheppard, Williams, or more modern authors like Jane Martin (Anton in Show Business).

And I agree with Imladris when she says that a combination of reading and watching television, as long as it's good television (no, "The Bachelor" does not count), will help you write. With the rise of 'reality TV', smart shows are getting more and more difficult to find, but there are still some. Some shows I watch to get my creative juices flowing are...

The West Wing. You've got to love a show that doesn't dumb itself down for its audience. If you don't get it, they don't care--the writers are relentlessly intelligent and witty. My favorite characters are the dry, sarcastic C.J., and the often unintentionally funny Josh.

Babylon 5. Another show that won't pander to the lowest denominator. Past the cool, cutting-edge-for-when-it-was-made FX, its web of characters and relationships takes five seasons to play out, and it pays off brilliantly in the end. Favorite character: Londo Mollari, clever and never without a retort.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. I classify them together because they are from the same creator and they share many of their directors and writers. Some of the episodes are a little conceptual and disconnected, but they remain my two favorite shows because of the depth of the characters. Buffy (the character) is my number one inspiration for my heroines...she's a female warrior, but the fact that she's a girl who fights doesn't supercede her personality. Favorite characters: Spike, who evolves through the series more than almost any other character I've ever seen on a television show, and the naive, blunt Anya, who always says exactly what she means.

Sometimes I write fanfiction to get into the mood of writing. Mostly, though, I use television as a springboard for characters.

Lathriel

05-28-2004, 09:12 AM

I have been writing before I ever read LOTR and LOTR wasn't my first fantasy book. I had a whole poetry phase but I gave up since i don't think my poems are that good however I still like it when the poetry unit comes along in english class.

I don't like writing fan fiction and I have only written one. I don't like fanfiction because I want to be original.
For me starting is easy, it is the finishing that is difficult because while I write I am afraid that I would bore whoever reads it. I have only finished my short stories. However now I have written two stories that are 40 pages or a little less and they are far from being done. (That might be about 60 pages in paperback. YEEEHHH!!)

Sometimes I write in class and people ask what i am doing. I tell them I am writing a story and when I tell them that it is 40 pages long they look at me in amazement. I don' think that it is that extroadinary but they seem to think so.

I like to just start writing with no plan so whenever we have to plan in english class for our short story I silently grind my teeth. My story just comes as I am writing, I can't plan ahead.

I don't know about you guys but ideas come to me in the dozen if i had written all my ideas down i would at least have 12 different stories at one time. AAAAAHHHHHHH!

As for T.V, as long as you read lots too I don't think it would affect you too much. Maybe what would help is to get involved in music, you know play an instrument or sing. I think that playing an instruiment gives the brain exercise and therefore you can think of lots of new stuff.

I'm starting to ramble now so i should probably stop.

Imladris

05-28-2004, 10:28 AM

As for T.V, as long as you read lots too I don't think it would affect you too much. Maybe what would help is to get involved in music, you know play an instrument or sing. I think that playing an instruiment gives the brain exercise and therefore you can think of lots of new stuff.

Music is a story. It tells a story. (http://credenda.org/issues/15-6musica.php) And music is stimulating to your mind. Studies have been done that says that young children who listen to the classics are smarter as they grow older, as well.

Maeggaladiel

05-28-2004, 12:34 PM

I always listen to music while I write. It helps me go to my *happy place*. Just kidding. Actually, it does help me write. I write different things, depending on what music I'm listening to. Evanescense usually makes my characters get into depressing situations. Rolling Stones makes my characters tough and adventurous. It's kinda weird, actually.

And I get ideas from television and books. I don't steal the plots, but they inspire me to work on my own stories. Trips to the bookstore always make me want to write and get something published. (Although at this rate, I won't have a finished book until I'm seventy-five!)

Another thing: I have problems with writing my plots. I get this great idea for my characters, and then I'm stuck again. Once I killed off a character, and then I found that I needed her later. Somehow I resurrected her (it's fantasy, they can do that sort of thing, okay?) and now she's stuck somewhere else. I wrote this great scene for her. I loved it. It's so perfect, but now I don't know how to follow it up! Anybody else have this problem?

Tumapa

05-28-2004, 01:02 PM

I think I write serious Fantasy, Tolkien has influenced me.

In 7th grade, the first LOTR movie was released, I was really captured by the way he thought. So I read the books...and I decided that I wanted to try and be just as good as he was, to write something people would love.

I've been working on it for...going on...four years now. It's been really hard.

I think I write serious fantasy because I have created my own worlds, races, languages, but they are complex yet easy to understand :D

I'm taking my time, I hope it goes well...best of skill.

-Tumsy

Nurumaiel

05-28-2004, 01:08 PM

Anybody else have this problem?

Oh yes, Maeggaladiel, most assuredly I do! All the time. In fact I just recovered from being stuck for a week. I was at a very important part in the story. The conflict has just been introduced, the conflict that will be the main driving point for the story. But then... the characters fell silent. They didn't want me to do anything with them, they didn't want me to give them any dialogue... they just remained stubbornly silent.

And then just yesterday they opened their mouths. Two boys going with the soldier? How ridiculous, they cried! Our friend Barin is coming too! And then the second chapter opens up with characters never heard of... characters thousands of miles away from the people I was previously dealing with! A king and queen and their daughter, and her 'Instructor?' Where did they come from. But now they're there and the story has hope again.

EDIT: Yikes! To use a Tolkien example, I can say that one of my characters in the White Horse has told me something very unexpected. He fought in the War of the Ring, and he was Bard to King Theoden?! I'm very surprised but if that is true I suppose... it is.... I guess. These characters will never give me peace of mind!

I never force myself to write when I'm stuck. I get stuck for good when I do that. I've tried it before and good books have had to be set aside until they're rekindled in my mind. When I force myself to write when I'm confused and unwilling to write because I don't know what's happening all that gets put in the book. The book becomes confusing, forced, and boring. I give myself the opportunity to practice the virtue of patience and I wait. I think about it during the night when my imagination is working best. I think out scenes and atmospheres, and I wait for the characters to tell me what they did next. I let the characters be themselves and let them do what they want. I make them become real people and I'm their biographer. They tell me what happened; I write their history. Sometimes they fall silent and won't tell me and if I make up what they say and do they get mad at my faulty interpretations and remain silent for months.

Just wait. Take a walk and think about it, listen to music... something like that. I've mentioned that I act out my stories before, and I'll say now that it helps when I'm stuck. I'll act out a scene already written and oftentimes it will keep going and I'll know what happens next. Patience and time... that's what I need to get past the silence of my characters.

Happy writing to all!

Imladris

05-29-2004, 05:20 PM

I was reading The Chronicles of Narnia and it suddenly occurred to me that you don't really get inside the character's head. You don't hear their thoughts, etc. This is, in my opinion, somewhat true in Tolkien's works as well. You certainly get to know a character better in LotR, but you don't really get inside anybody's head in that story either. So, do you prefer to write grand, historical epics where the story is being told to you, or do you prefer to write stories where there is one character and you draw the reader into his head?

Lhundulinwen

05-29-2004, 06:47 PM

For me, it really depends on how many characters are in the story. Like in LOTR, at some points in the story, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, Frodo and Sam are all in different places. If made more sense to follow each of the groups up to a certain point and then go back and pick up another group. But if a book has a main character who is withdrawn most of the time, or is alone a lot (without monologues of course) there is no way for the reader to really know what is going on during most of the story. Plus, when you're not in a character's head, you can figure out the other characters personalities without having to see it through there eyes. I once read a book where you root for the main character through most of the book, but at the end you find out she was really a horrible person and leader. It was an odd book.

But then again, when you get into a character's head, you can see where they are coming from a lot better, especially if they are acting unrational on the outside. So, if a character is say, beating up their best friend, for example, you won't know why unless you've seen the action that caused the reaction or the character tells someone why. So, in that case it would be better to be in their heads I think.

The Mushroom

05-31-2004, 04:26 PM

Ooooh... I write a bit of fantasy. I guess I like writing fantasy because for me it just comes easiest. I can't see myself writing something like... oh... a historical novel for instance. That's just not what I do. I think Tolkien has influenced my writing a little but not drastically (I don't think).
Anyway, I like it when an author takes their reader "inside the head" of one of the characters. It connects the reader to that character a little more.

Eowyn Skywalker

06-01-2004, 01:28 AM

I find it rather annoying to know exactly what the charactes are thinking, and so on, because, with the style of writing that I do, and like reading, it would give too much of the plot away. You really must think on that, to have the characters thoughts would give away plot lines, and then, later on, things wouldn't come as a surprise. Straying away from Lord of the Rings, I will comment on Star Wars here... if, for example, you had known what Darth Vader was thinking on Cloud City , the fact that he was Luke's father would've never came as a shock. (Couldn't think of a LotR example for my point). So, therefore, I dislike first person, and stories that really let you know what's inside the characters mind. I tend to feature around a group of characters, anyhow, so it would be pointless, and would reveal too much to let you know what's on inside their heads.

Just my two cents. Not that I have any sense, nor do I usually make any sense...

-Eowyn Skywalker

Sirithheruwen

06-01-2004, 06:43 AM

Well, as you know, my story has four protags. The bulk of the story will be in one of the protag's POV (N.). The rest of the story, though, will be alternating chapters between the other three protags (V., E., and F.)

Well, Ms. Skywalker (too tired to type the whole thing), you say that if you get into the character's heads, you destroy plotlines. Well, that's true, you could destroy the plotlines you were thinking of, but you could also open up new plotlines as well. I could tell you an example from my story, but that would be telling. ;)

Well, that's all folks...
(Well, don't blame me, Ms. Skywalker took the good ending! ;) )

Imladris

06-01-2004, 08:46 AM

Usually when you're inside a character's head, it's only one person usually. There are exceptions, of course, for stories with more than one character.

Edit: Yeah mark12_30 *points to mark's post below*, that's what I mean.

mark12_30

06-01-2004, 09:20 AM

Immy, I think you mean stories with more than one POV character.

Consider LOTR: POV is Frodo for quite a while til the breaking of the fellowship; Pippin carries POV in Fangorn etc; POV for Paths of the dead etc is Gimli. Also at Breaking of the Fellowship, Frodo's POV lessens, and begins to slowly shift over to Sam, til Sam carries most of it by Cirith Ungol forward.

So we are really "inside" a few minds, not everyone's mind. We never get inside Gandalf's mind that I am aware. Nor Elrond, nor Galadriel... for those people we see and hear, but do not mind-read.

Firefoot

06-01-2004, 03:07 PM

From my standpoint, it depends on the story whether you should show character's thoughts and feelings. For some stories, like Eowyn Skywalker pointed out, it destroys the plotline. For other stories it is very beneficial and sometimes even necessary so that the reader can understand what is going on.

Something I always have trouble with as a writer is coming up with names for my characters. I have a great plot in mind but I can't start writing because I can't think of names for the characters and as a result the story either a. doesn't get written or b. has names for characters that I'm not satisfied with. Any suggestions on this?

Sirithheruwen

06-01-2004, 04:21 PM

I'm sorry, Firefoot, but I don't know what to say to you. My names come naturally to me, without any trouble at all. I could be sitting in the middle of chemestry or taking a shower, and a name will come to me. I'll scribble it down in my notebook or just say it over and over so I don't forget it. (Once I even wrote a couple names on the back of my algebra test. :eek: ) Usually when I think of one or two names, a lot more come after that. That's all I can really say. Sorry.

Eowyn Skywalker

06-01-2004, 10:55 PM

(Ms. Skywalker is an ok nickname, do not worry)

Okay, about names... well, it depends on the character. With 'Earthling' characters, I usually give them real names, such as Ann-Marie... but, with fantasy characters, they usually just come to me. There's no trick to finding names, just pull out a name generator, or a name book, or something. For future type names, use the BD name gererator, and the Dwarven last names sometimes work... sometimes. For first names, something short, and zippy sounding works... like Zoe, or Luke... or a plant, or bird sometimes, as in Willow, or Raven... those also work nice for past names. With say Elf names, come up with something that sounds cool, as in Arawyn Telessa, and make up a meaning. Names have always been easy for me, I just make something up, and give it some cool meaning.

That's the best I can give on that idea, is those for tips. Hope I made sense, though I'd rather make dollars...

-Eowyn Skywalker

Maeggaladiel

06-02-2004, 09:44 AM

Wow, I wish I could come up with character names as easy as you guys. It takes me forever to think up a good name, and even after I find a name I have to make sure that I really DID make it up. I've had problems with making up character names, only to find that they already exist.

However, I have a list of about thirty five names for pirate ships scribbled on a paper. I was writing a story about pirates, and I needed some ship names. Suddenly, ship names were flying out of my head. I would be doing something completely different, and BAM! A new ship name! If only I needed thirty five ship names. I ended up only using "The Tempest" and "Warhammer" out of the entire list. I'm trying to create new characters so I can use some other names. I've got some cool ones.

Lathriel

06-02-2004, 01:08 PM

I usually don't have troubles of making up names however I always have a back-up for when I do get stuck. I printed out about 50 names of the internet and then I pick out ones I like. I change the ones that I like and then it becomes an original name without me having to spend hours to think of the right name.

Imladris

06-02-2004, 01:22 PM

I do a few things to discover names.

A. Take a word from a foreign language (Latin and Greek for me normally), and "transform" it into a name.

B. For fantastical names, I try to find odd names -- names that aren't too common, and then spell them differently. Sometimes, I'll scramble letters as well.

As for deciding names: I believe that this is an off shoot of letting the story write itself. Sometimes you just *know* the name of your characters and all's well and dandy. Sometimes, as some of you have expressed, you don't. My recomendation would be to just pick a name you are somewhat satisfied and continue to write using that name. When you finally decide the name of your character, you can go to your word processor and replace the name, etc. However, if you don't like writing a character with an unsatisfactory name (like me), I would recommend to hold off writing the story. I've found that when I force a story, it doesn't work at all.

Lhundulinwen

06-02-2004, 08:12 PM

Well, I guess I'm lazy. I finally bought a baby names book. It has foreign names, out of date names, and variations of names. I can take any of the names in the book, and twist them, or put them with regular fiction characters or fantasy characters. I know some writers who use web databases to find names also.

Enorëiel

06-02-2004, 10:21 PM

I like to think of myself as a serious fantasy writer but sometimes I wonder...

My biggest problem is the fact that I'm a hard critic on myself. Others look at my work and think it's great but the whole time I'm comparing my work to others and thinking that mine is really pathetic and immature. :rolleyes: Anyone else have that problem?

I find my characters' names in a really odd way... I type random letters on the computer until they look authentic, unique, or at least somewhat plausible :D .

Eowyn Skywalker

06-02-2004, 11:31 PM

Oh, do I ever have that problem. I write... and most people think it's good... everyone but me, that is. What I'd like to do is actually find someone else who writes, and is about as good as I am, and then we could send each other's stories back and forth, and actually give advice, and correct, and all that. I am one of my worst cridics (sp?).

Back to names for a moment though, I know what you all mean... tha characters can usually find their own names. One of my characters was origanally called Tiffany, after a friend of mine, and she was meant to be the 'girl' of the group. But, as her character went on, she proved herself unworthy of the name, and so I gave her a new name, an 'elvish' name that suited her better... and so the character just found her new name. My first experience with this 'finding' of names was with a halfy character. He had a name in my first scribbled drafts by hand... he was meant to be evil, and all... I called him Yanindil, or something else like that... but, when I started writing the story on my computer, suddenly the character changed, and he had a new name. It was odd. Names just come to me, and come to the character... like Arawyn Telessa... I made that up on the spot, and yet, I already know what her character will be like. She's a human, one of a seafaring race, and her people are slowly dying out... as the lands are growing, and the seas were she was born are receeding. She is not royal, but has some bloodline leading her to the throne, so, if the persent royals were to die, she would have to take leadership. But she is not that type... she is a free spirit. And that just comes from the sound of her name. (PS: This character just came to me, I won't be using her anywhere, anyhow... anyone can borrow her)

Yeah, that's that. I hope I made some sense... I know I didn't make dollars... sigh.

-Eowyn Skywalker

Estelyn Telcontar

06-03-2004, 01:59 AM

When I need names for an RPG, I often take real life names of family and friends and change them to suit the race/people to whom the character belongs. For example, 'Mark' became 'Markal'...

TheBladeThatWasBroken

06-08-2004, 06:35 AM

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy? What kind do you write?

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?

1. I used to write fanfictions for anime and stuff... it was fun when I first began writing, but as I wrote, the feeling of satisfactory lessened everytime I recall that I didn't create the world that my fanfictions took place in. And after reading Professor Tolkien's works, I've decided that I'm going to write in my own world as well... and that's how I began

2. I think Professor Tolkien has influenced, however little, every fantasy writers' writings... after all, you could call him the Father of Fantasy Fiction.

My problems are that I'm extremely lazy, and I just wish that my stories will come out on paper on their own exactly the way that I had pictured them in my mind, so that I don't have to go through all the grammar and stuff. And my other problem is that, being a non-native speaker, my writing skill isn't at its best... you could probably already caught several grammatical errors in this post itself =_=

Argh, I wish I could write better.

And while we're on the subject of names, I find myself disliking real names. So when coming up with names, I use the widely popular word-manipulating method. Only that I manipulate word roots of different languages, and that the meaning behind those roots will have some relationship to the place/object/person with that name.

For ex. the world in which my story takes place is named "Jahanneth" and it came from the Persian word Jahan which means "the World."

Just in case anyone's interested, here's the site that I use: Behind the Name - Etymology and History of First Names (http://www.behindthename.com)

And that's about the longest post I've posted in the Downs so far =_=...

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-07-2004, 12:43 PM

Some good, intelligent and helpful discussion here. On the subject of names; It is not names of characters that trouble me, rather names of places.

It is really troubling me. Does anyone else have difficulty with this, as opposed to character names?

Eowyn Skywalker

07-15-2004, 01:34 AM

Oh yes, the evil art of place naming. I actually have became more adept at places to people, actually... being as I can follow some basic ideas for them. Now, for planets... that is easy, just come up with a name that's two or three syllables (sp?) long, such as Lanathaá... most are like that... Coruscant... Tatooine... Corriellia... many of the Star Wars planets are like that. Cities, on a fantasy world can contain 'fort' or 'tower' or something else of the like, if it is large... such as Fort Aleaon (made up on the spot). Towns tend to contain desriptive words, that are like the town, village, whatever. Such as Willow Creek, or Two Hills, or Rock Hollows... yeah. Things like that. Forests and mountains are easy to name. Here's my tip for creating a world, and that's to draw a map right off the bat, and come up with names, places, etc. That's what I did... drew a few maps... and now I have *counts on fingers* Akk... I can't even remember all my worlds... heh. :rolleyes:

-Eowyn Skywalker

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-15-2004, 12:06 PM

Oh yes, I love drawing maps! I keep putting off the actual task of writing because I want to refine the maps.

Lathriel

07-22-2004, 01:44 PM

What makes naming places for me easier is to look where they are situated on your map. If the place is far north I tend to give it a simple northern name like for example ice town or I look for celtic like names.

If the place is south than I try to find a somewhat southern name.

Elennar Starfire

07-22-2004, 01:55 PM

For names, I usually think of someone I know that's like the character I'm trying to name, and scramble up the letters in their name until I get something I like.

Place names are a nightmare... :eek:

Encaitare

07-29-2004, 02:47 PM

I currently just write fanfiction, but I have a couple of concepts for original fantasy that I'd like to use someday. Of course Tolkien is an influence, being the Master of all things Fantasy, but I only fear that I can never create anything to do my source of inspiration justice. Oh well, I'll give it a shot and see what happens... maybe when the new school year starts and I have plenty of time to slack off.

Sirithheruwen

08-03-2004, 08:57 AM

On the other AYWSF thread, there is a very good tip for names (any).

1) Take the name of anything: your name, your town's name, anything.
2) Write countries, states, or towns to the side of it.
3) Look at the names you have created, and throw out the ones that don't make sense.

EX:

South Africa
Iceland
Rhode Island
India
Tibet
Holland

Names: Rl, Ochnio, Ueodbl, Tldiel, Haeata, Anin, Fdsd, Ia, Cn, Ad. (Usable names in italics. All names are up for grabs.)

I personally don't use this tactic because I don't have any trouble with coming up with names. I just write down the first thing that comes to mind, and that usually works.

Maps. You brought up something I dread doing, and haven't yet done for my story, which I am a good 150 pages in. I am no good with maps, and while I enjoy looking at finished ones, I fear making them. Don't ask me why, for I can't tell you. If anyone has any good maps suggestions, please come forth! (Please...)

Isowen

08-03-2004, 11:00 AM

I write a lot of fantasy, it is very private though, i do show it to a few lotr fans. Tolkien has really inspired me and I get a lot of ideas from his work. I get a lot of the personality traits from Tolkien, though I don't copy his ideas and I think of all my own names. There are dwarfs, elves, and men in my stories, though no hobbits! And also I create various creatures. I think the best part is making up all the kingdoms and cities etc. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who writes fantasy! and sirithherewn, I agree that maps are hard and I like your technique for names. I usually just think of words which sound like the names in lotr. almost like a rhyme! ;) hope tht helps

Eomer of the Rohirrim

08-03-2004, 11:06 AM

I guess drawing maps just comes naturally to some people. I like drawing an island and slicing it up into different bits, adding forests and rivers and whatever. Do rough maps to start with, really simple things. Don't start with any great detail.

Elennar Starfire

08-03-2004, 07:53 PM

1) Take the name of anything: your name, your town's name, anything.
2) Write countries, states, or towns to the side of it.
3) Look at the names you have created, and throw out the ones that don't make sense.

I'd forgotten about that, but I've used it to come up with some very nice names. I usually use one of my friend's names and make up a random sentence. Like this:

E-elephants
L-like
E-eating
N-nasty
N-noses
A-and
R-raspberries

Elephants like eating nasty noses and raspberries. :rolleyes:

Liaona...oooh, I like that one, no stealing it!

Gothbogg the Ripper

09-17-2004, 06:38 AM

I decided to write a story because I've always loved writing of all sorts, I'm actually an award winning poet so I've got a lot of experience.
I am writing a fantasy book and one of my main inspirations was Lord of the Rings, it just struck me as the benchmark of fantasy and originality.
It's so hard to be original when Tolkiens done almost everything already. :)

Avie

09-17-2004, 11:24 AM

Completely agree there Gothbogg. So much fantasy writing is terribly derivative, the dreadful "Shanarra" series being a case in point.
I think that Tolkien covered the major themes so well that the LOTR books are almost impossible to better.
One fantasy writer is distinctively different though...has anyone read anything by Gene Wolfe?

Imladris

09-17-2004, 02:12 PM

I think that Tolkien covered the major themes so well that the LOTR books are almost impossible to better.

It's so hard to be original when Tolkiens done almost everything already.

Wow. You guys make it sound as if Tolkien and LotR was the ultimate fantasy, that it was fantasy, that it is the end all of fantasy, and that is the king of fantasy. I feel really sorry for those pitiful authors out there, trying to scrape together a fantasy story for people who seem to think that there is nothing after Tolkien.

You two seem to be operating under the thinking that there are only a few major themes and that Tolkien incorporated them all. I almost seem to be getting the impression that there is only one way to write those themes. Well...hate to break it to you, but there are a zillion ways to write those themes. Tolkien did a theme in a very basic way that had never been done in quite that way before. That's why it's popular. He took the theme of a dark lord and hero trying to take over the world and how a nobody peon defeated him (he even put quite a twist on that) and another theme that is called the Cinderella Theme and he wrote the story from there. Sure, Aragorn isn't a girl but he's still a nobody. A ranger. A ranger who is frowned upon. And then he becomes king. It's so brilliant its hardly recognizable.

What I'm trying to say is that there are only a few handfuls of themes in this world (the Cinderella theme and the peon defeats big bad lord theme are two of the major ones) and they are everywhere, even in history (Joan of Arc). What makes a story is how you wrote the theme, the spins and twists you put on the theme, the reality of the setting, and many more factors. To say that Tolkien's way is the only way to write fantasy or that he already did it is like saying there is only one method to do math, and we all know that that is a lie.

Saying that Tolkien did all there was to do, or that there is only one way to write fantasy is denying the genius, the intricacy, the creativity, and the imagination of the human mind.

Diamond18

09-17-2004, 08:18 PM

Fantasy can be anything that has even only vague supernatural or speculative elements. You can write Fantasy without Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Trolls, Orcs, Ringwraiths, Hobbits, Balrogs, Ents, talking Eagles, Wargs, Dark Lords, magic objects, vast cosmologies, catastrophic wars, Quests, or anything else that takes a forefront in Tolkien’s books. (That isn’t to say that anything which does have one or more of those elements is automatically Tolkienesque, but I mean that those things are not the heart and soul of fantasy). I agree with Imladris, fantasy doesn’t begin and end with Tolkien’s words, and his is certainly not the only method. Or even the best for some people’s tastes. I have come across (to my initial surprise) many aspiring fantasy authors who have Tolkien low on their list of favorites or don’t even like him that much. A year or so ago I would have just thought that they had no taste or were denying their Lord of the Fantasy, but now I have just come to realize that people are varied enough that some can like fantasy but prefer methods other than Tolkien’s. And more importantly, aspire to something other than Tolkien.

I can honestly say there’s nothing in my writing repertoire that is Tolkienesque, and here I even like him. I just don’t buy into the idea that there’s only one way to write fantasy and that it’s Tolkien. I have seen too much proof otherwise. There will always be copycats of great stories, or stories told in a similar format, but that doesn’t mean that there is not and never will be anything else which is still yet worthy of the title “great fantasy”.

Oh, and by the way….

D E T R O I T
I L L I N O I S
A L A B A M A
M O N T R E A L
O N T A R I O
N E V A D A
D E L A W A R E

Hmmm… Ellonee, Tlantvl, Ribtaaa, Onarrdw, Iomeiaa, Tiaao.

S A C R E M E N T O
A L B A N Y
R A L E I G H
A R K A N S A S
H A C K E N S A C K

Alara, Cblkc, Raeak, Enine, Myhas, Esa. I think the second try had better results. That is kinda interesting. :)

Elennar Starfire

09-18-2004, 08:02 PM

It really works! Gets you unstuck when you can't think of any names. I have a list of names somewhere, I make up new ones whenever I feel like it, then write 'em down to use when they're needed.

Suffering from a major case of writer's block at the moment...stupid persuasive essay for english class... :mad:

Nimrodel_9

09-25-2004, 05:52 PM

I have never really liked writing. In school when we are required to write a story, I put to much detail and events into them, and they end up being at least 8 pages long while everyone else has 1-2 pages.
However, I was in school a couple weeks ago, and on an impulse of my own, I felt like writing. I began jotting down ideas, and it is now coming along nicely. It is fantasy, my favorite kind of story because you can make anything happen, and it seems possible.
And yes, Tolkien has influenced my writing very much. Especially with names. Like Elennar Starfire, I have a list of names that I take from whenever I need to. Many of them sound like they could come straight from Tokien`s works. ;)

Elennar Starfire

09-25-2004, 07:26 PM

In school when we are required to write a story, I put to much detail and events into them, and they end up being at least 8 pages long while everyone else has 1-2 pages.

I think my record for a school-required writing was six pages, double-spaced...I got extra credit for writing more than necessary. (Loved my eighth grade English teacher!) I wanted to make it longer, but didn't have time. I may add details and improvements someday...my main problem with school writing is finishing in time, since I tend to write on with many details and plot twists. Though I rather pity the people who think eleven pages is a book rather than a longish short story...

*Leny realizes she's rambling*

Ok...I'll stop now...

Encaitare

09-25-2004, 09:12 PM

I'm suddenly filled with inspiration for some new characters... I already have a few drawn but I really have very little idea what's going to happen to them. However, I went to the New York Renaissance Faire today and there were so many interesting and unusual people about that I just want to write about them all! Now all I need is a plot... ;)

Elennar Starfire

10-01-2004, 07:02 PM

Ah, I at last am rid of my Writer's Block! *sighs happily* Now, to find those papers I wrote it all on...

Imladris

10-01-2004, 07:25 PM

Ah, but how did you break the block? ;)

Nimrodel_9

10-02-2004, 12:16 PM

I do that too, Encaitare. I am inspired by the things I see or hear, and create people or ideas from it. In the story I am writing right now, I really don`t have a plot. I make it up as I go, though sometimes I get ahead of myself and dream up ideas to put in later. My Literature teacher has been trying to stress the importance of brainstorming, clusters, and prewriting lately, but very seldom do I use them. I store all my ideas in my head.

Elennar Starfire

10-02-2004, 07:41 PM

Ah, but how did you break the block?

I don't really know...it just went away.

Encaitare

10-02-2004, 07:51 PM

Once I was complaining about my writer's block to one of my favorite fanfiction authors, and she told me that writer's block is just a state of mind. Surprisingly, thinking on her words of wisdom helped lift the block! Maybe it'll work for someone else too...

Imladris

10-02-2004, 08:53 PM

Yes, I have heard that too, Encaitare, and when you view Writer's Block as an illusion, it does help wonders. Unfortunately, it's easier to say that than do it.

I have found that if you do have writer's block, it pays to write about anything. I consider it the equivalent of an artist's doodlings...only you're writing the doodlings.

Elennar Starfire

10-03-2004, 07:19 PM

Maybe it was the strange journal prompt my English teacher gave us...she put a strange picture on the board, of a man about to hit a lump under the carpet with a chair (meaning he was going to use the chair to hit the lump, not that the lump had a chair) and said to make up a story for what's going on. I had a bit of fun with that...the really great thing is that she's got lots of these pictures. :D Tales of accidental toadification, baby rocks that come skipping back...

*is rambling again* Sorry about that...

Anyways, I suppose I would recommend thinking of something amusing and writing about it.

Sapphire_Flame

12-17-2004, 02:07 PM

I just read through this entire thread, and decided it needed resurrecting. :D

How did you decide that you wanted to write fantasy? What kind do you write?
I'm not sure, really. One day, when I was about thirteen, my mind suddenly said, "Hey, wouldn't it be interesting to write a fantasy story?" My mind has refused to shut up about it since.

I write action fantasy! Lots of running around and battling with creepy things. 'S most fun. I actually have started out by writing fanfiction, which is brilliant practice for original work. ('M working on one story at the moment which is a very odd crossover between LotR and Alien! Should be quite good. *crosses fingers*)

Has Tolkien influenced your writing? If so, how?
Oyez. Mostly with names; a lot of the names in the novel triplet I'm working on are drawn from Tolkien's works. I do change the meanings and spellings, so it's not exact, and it's not just Elven; I have names taken from Black Speech, Westron, and Rohirric as well. Plus, Tolkien's style is just so brilliant, I try to give my work some of the same depth and meaning.

How do you make your protagonist (hero) somebody your reader can relate to, or like, or at least sympathize with?
Ditto what has been said before; I try to write them so I identify with them, and hopefully others will identify as well. We really are more alike than we are led to believe.

Even the baddies can be identified with, to a certain degree. Best example? Gollum.

What I'm actually doing with my current triplet is making my protagonist not be the most important person involved in the war. He's a knight, one of many, and is just trying to help protect his land and his people. I think having a protagonist be "perfect" and the most important piece on the board, so to speak, is a real turnoff for many readers. They don't want to read about amazing, perfect people doing amazing, superhuman things. Like with the hobbits. They are "little people", in every sense of the word, which is why readers identify with them.

What kind do you write? (Transition or Immersion)
Immersion, definitely. *nodnod* Personally, I don't like having to explain everything to the main character in order to explain it to the audience. I always feel like I'm in better hands if the protagonists actually know what they're doing (or seem to know ^_~).

Although I did get a weird idea to do "The Hitchhiker's Guide to Middle-earth", involving a modern teen/young adult falling into M-e and needing help from a friendly Arda denizen and his/her Hitchhiker's scroll. Yes, I know I need help. And no, you can't have that idea. :p It's mine, my own, my preciousss.... >.>

How do you overcome gender barriers?
Carefully. ^_~

I actually don't have much trouble with this; even though I'm a girl, I seem to have an easier time writing male characters... o.O; Yeah, 's odd. Just try your best; but don't fall into stereotyping; this creates Designated Misogynistic Idiots, which is, as a general rule, a bad thing, especially in a protagonist.

How do you do second drafts?
This took me forever to work out. I used to refuse to change anything I've already written. Now rewriting is one of my favourite parts of the writing process! I'll agree with what has been said previously; make a copy of your work and hand it over to someone with a Big Red Pen to mark it up and make suggestions. It is very useful. *nodnod*

Does anyone else carry something with them? Like a special notebook or pen?
My Insanity Folder. It never leaves my person. I keep all my writing ideas, maps, excerpts, quotes, everything, in this one little folder. The poor thing gets very beat up; I've had to replace it three times already. O.O For a writing utensil, I keep a mechanical pencil, extra lead, and an eraser with me at all times.

(writing rituals?)
Music. Lots of music. *nodnod*

Studies have been done that says that young children who listen to the classics are smarter as they grow older
Another study has shown that if you listen to rap, your IQ drops. *snicker*

Which of the four MICE categories is the main thread tying together the story you're writing?
I'm thinking my current triplet is more of an event story, but I'm not sure. It's a battle/magic kind of thing (with spiders! :D) so it kind of just goes from event to event; but I also like to put in detail and background for my characters. Can a story be in two categories?

Something I always have trouble with as a writer is coming up with names for my characters. I have a great plot in mind but I can't start writing because I can't think of names for the characters and as a result the story either a. doesn't get written or b. has names for characters that I'm not satisfied with. Any suggestions on this?
I hate when that happens. -_-; I usually just stick in names of friends or something until I get to know the characters better. Then I can usually pick a name. If you write modern fantasy, you can pick a name by deciding on a meaning you want it to have, then checking a names book to find something that fits. Or you can write it as an in-joke (someone who loves disco with a name that sounds rather like Boromir? ^_~).

Then there are those lovely characters that pop up with a name already supplied. One of my characters waltzed into my head with a little wave and a nametag that read "Hello, my name is Maura!". It was so perfect. ^^

It is not names of characters that trouble me, rather names of places. It is really troubling me. Does anyone else have difficulty with this, as opposed to character names?
Place names... -_- Horrid, quite horrid. I will give you a tip that my friend uses, to great success; maybe you can use it. She gets an astronomy book and goes through the names of stars, constellations, and nebuli. She has discovered some brilliant names by doing that. I've used a few myself.

Anyway, my question is this: connecting pieces. Say you get a lot of ideas, but you have trouble linking them all together coherently. How would you fix that problem? I hate doing the "time skips" and "trudge trudge trudge" that turns up so much. Any suggestions?

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

Elennar Starfire

12-17-2004, 09:02 PM

Another fun way to come up with names is to spell things backwards and change a few letters so it's not obvious to those weirdos (like me) who often read names backwards to see if it's a word.

Remember Aksarben, Saphy? ;)

I also think of a person I know that acts somewhat like the character, spell it backwards or twist it around and come up with a name. Like Deshaune...(my 7th/8th grade French teacher).

Encaitare

12-18-2004, 09:48 AM

I found a million great ideas for names in my SAT prep book. They put some very curious words in there:

maudlin -- which could easily, and probably will be, converted into Maudelyn

scintilla -- an word which sounds like some sort of evil vegetation to me

legerdemain -- since many of my characters are court jesters, and this word means "sleight of hand," I may very well make it a last name, LeGerdemain.

I also came across the name Quigley in there, which I immediately loved, so much so that I had to create a character for it. He's a little juggler who's very mischievous.

EarthBound

12-20-2004, 02:16 PM

I've only been published in science journals/magazines but I'm writing my 2nd novel (I'm waiting a good spell before trying shop my first one) that is a Sci-Fi with plenty of humor. Sometimes it takes inspiration to get through a block, but that can take time. Time is not on our side, usually, so I've found, by experience, that 'working through' is the best remedy. By which, I mean, just making myself work forward on the story (thank goodness for computers! ;) ) and only saving the good bits. I will usually find a new thought or thread to carry on the story, or even just come up with new ideas to incorporate into the story at some later juncture.

Plus a real kicker is a timeline....nothing inspires like a deadline, eh! :p

Kitanna

01-26-2005, 09:34 PM

I don't know who first suggested taking the first letters of various names and places to form new words, but that has been a most helpful hint!
I finished writing a fantasy story earlier this year and I had no problems coming up with the places for it, but as I started to write the second part I needed more names for it. And so I used that first letter method and it was such a huge help when I was drawing the map and trying to name the various landmarks. So thanks to the person (or people) who brought that up!

Assasin

01-27-2005, 03:35 PM

Once, in a fantasy story I was typing on the computer I couldn't come up with a name, so I looked around for ideas, I actually found it on the back of a cerial box. So, when in doubt, look around. I also think Sirith's idea was cool. :)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

01-27-2005, 04:02 PM

So what type of scene comes most naturally to you guys? I must say that I particularly love writing about a diminishing mental state of a person. Whether this character has been weakened by some terrible news, or is descending into madness, that's what I really enjoy writing about.

Encaitare

01-27-2005, 10:13 PM

Whether this character has been weakened by some terrible news, or is descending into madness, that's what I really enjoy writing about.

Ohhhhhh, yes. I absolutely love writing madness, and the more tragic it is, the better. That's why nearly all my fanfiction, poetry, and short works of original fiction are categorized as "angst." The great thing about mentally upset characters is that you can make them act in the most unpredictable and random ways to ordinary things. So that sort of angsty business comes very naturally to me, not sure why. Perhaps it's got something to do with my astrology...

Another idea I like that just popped out of nowhere is the idea of characters who personify different things. I've got these characters called the Virtues, and they have names like Faith, Hope, Mercy, Chastity, etc. The super-fun twist is that they are the exact opposite of their names. So Hope is always depressed; Mercy is a sadist, and so on. Very fun stuff.

And anything surreal. Surreal is good.

Kitanna

01-28-2005, 05:44 AM

I've got these characters called the Virtues, and they have names like Faith, Hope, Mercy, Chastity, etc.
I used those names to create a group of angels in one of my fantasy stories (obviuosly called the Angels of Virtues), only unlike yours their names were what they are. But I also had the angel Death who was a woman, which is supposed to be a twist because women are associated with life.

I'm not much for a certain scene I like to write, but I'm really love introducing someone for the first time. Describing them and so on.

aelithes

01-28-2005, 05:30 PM

I do quite enjoy creative writing and writing fantasy, but am a bit more into constructing my own cultures and especially constructing languages. Being somewhat of a linguist myself (only somewhat because I'm a Classicist, but more in the philological/literary sense), I'm fascinated with etymologies and the development of languages and the pure sounds of words. I don't suppose there's anyone around here with the same interests?

Encaitare

01-28-2005, 07:06 PM

I do love learning about the origins of names, something I've acquired since becoming immersed in Tolkien. I'm dorky; I like looking at the Latin-English dictionary and spotting word roots. :D

Soronumë

01-29-2005, 06:03 AM

Ok, so I am writing fantasy, trying at least. But Ireally don't knowhow good I am...
I have account in Elfwood, where I have few stories written...
(http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/libr/o/r/orion88/orion88.html)
But, they may be little weird.... Blame that I'm a Finn, and not native speaker/writer of English. :S

Assasin

01-31-2005, 05:12 PM

Eomer, I love writing action scenes. With every detail of a fight. I also like writing about crazy people. It's fun trying to think up mad thoughts. My dad gets quite disturbed when he reads my writing, too much blood and gore.

THE Ka

01-31-2005, 07:15 PM

When I ever find the chance to write, fantasy for that matter, I tend to enrich it with poetry, something I love as a hobby. When I do this, I end up proof-reading it over a million times, even though they are always short stories. Another thing I love to do is encorporate historical fantasical items such as one I used, a spiegeltent which played an important role throughout that story.

Also, I have a bad habit of being a Poe, I always have something of maniacal or of dark humour happen. Another habit is giving characters very detailed backgrounds - Which end up taking a whole page... None if my characters are "goodie-two-shoes" either, I don't know why. Sometimes it would be nice to have some to liven up the text a bit. :rolleyes:

Tolkien has effected how I see or specifiy fantasy in some ways, mostly structure. His works are indeed high fantasy works of genius, which most tap insperation out of like a fountain. I don't think I have based any of my works on similar topics and ideals as Tolkien, but it would fun to try.

Well, that's all. Really.

~ Poe Loving Ka~

Assasin

02-01-2005, 05:08 PM

The Ka, I never write about goodie two shoes either. If the people are kinda bad, it adds drama. My stories always have the worst things that can happen to people, but I at least can still make it funny. (Without being like Leggy and Gimli) ;)

Encaitare

02-01-2005, 06:56 PM

Mmm, Poe. One of my idols. Except I don't want to die a drunk. ;)

I too like to write flawed characters, or nasty or annoying ones. People don't want to read about all these perfect characters... at least I don't.

Kitanna

02-01-2005, 07:11 PM

Flawed characters are always more interesting. They seem to endure the most conflictwise. Atleast mine do. They always have to fight two battles. One for whatever cause and then one within themselves. Good stuff. That's what Kitanna is in my story. She's my most flawed character I've ever had and everythings always about questioning if "this is really who I should be fighting for" or "is it really worth helping when the world will crumble" I love her so much which is why I picked that name to be my Barrow Downs name.

Encaitare~ I also hate reading about perfect people. They're ok as minor characters but a good story can't have a super perfect person as the main character. There's no conflict in that. My friend's story characters are all perfect and like superhuman with no flaws and I can't stand reading about them.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

02-02-2005, 10:32 AM

Blood and gore is quite good. I usually like to write about that from the perspective of a horrified onlooker. I don't think I've ever glorified it.

Nurumaiel

02-02-2005, 11:36 AM

I'll agree that nobody wants to write (well, maybe they do, but they oughtn't to want to) a perfect character. But you have to be careful of how you're defining perfect and how you're defining flawed.

I've stumbled across a few people who seem to think if a heroine has anything even similar to good looks, it means she's perfect, and the author is under obligation to counter-act that good point by making her selfish, or some other flaw. If the main character is talented at something, then she (the poor young women are mostly picked on, but mostly by young women, so the gentlemen still retain their gallantry ;) ) must certainly be perfect. If she is unusual she must be a Mary-Sue (but if everyone else were as unusual as she, she wouldn't be unusual anymore).

I'm not in any way saying that you have these ideas, but some people truly do.

The word 'flaw' is often misinterpreted, as well. I've stumbled across people who think a person must have a flaw for every virtue they have, which is most realistic. I know many people, in fact and fiction, who have only one or two flaws against their many virtues... but these few flaws spoil everything else to a certain extent. I've heard that if your main character is selfish enough to not want to help her (again... it's always the females who are picked on) family and friends with something but not so selfish as to watch her friend die so she won't have to, she isn't selfish enough.

I once read a book about a fellow who had quite a few flaws... he was obstinately stubborn, he was accustomed to use slang, etc., etc. But even these flaws weren't actual flaws. They were un-refined virtues. Near the end his stubbornness was refined into determination to stand for what is right, and his use of slang developed into a real grasp of humour. This character didn't have any flaws, but only un-refined virtues. And yet almost every young lad I know who knows him adores him.

I'd be interested in hearing how others on this thread define 'perfect' and 'flawed.' How bad does a person have to be to be flawed? And when is it that they're pushing the limits and becoming perfect?

And here's something to think about...

If you have a good character, without many serious and wicked flaws, and perhaps only un-refined virtues, don't make everyone else around him really bad, to show up his goodness. Surround him by characters who are just as good as he is, and maybe even a character whose better.

And if you have a bad character that you really want to show up as mean and selfish, put at least one very good character alongside him who will show, just by being the opposite, how bad this character really is. It worked in Gone with the Wind with Scarlett O'Hara and Melly.... or at least it worked for me.

Encaitare

02-02-2005, 04:50 PM

When I think of a flawed character, I think of most characters, since most are not perfect in every single way. They can be good people and still have a few things about them that are not ideal: little idiosyncrasies or problems that may arise and sometimes get in their way.

Or perhaps I used the word "flawed" incorrectly in the first place...

You were talking about Mary-Sues, Nuru, and in the fanfiction realm we see the same story time and time again. A beautiful, talented-at-everything young woman who just isn't appreciated by anyone at home and leads a tragic life magically meets handsome hero from a fandom of the author's choice. Extra points if she's got naturally purple hair in a world where everyone else has brown. This does not necessarily mean that a beautiful female lead is this type of character, or that there aren't quintessential sorts of people in the world on which she could be based. The character, in the end, is what the author makes of it. The seemingly perfect woman can either be annoying in her perfection, or a deep and genuinely good person.

Now about being flawed or not, I think that maybe "flawed" is not always the best word for what I meant. What I meant was more along the lines of a character not always having all the answers, or not always being sure of exactly what to do, or not always getting along with certain other characters, or being a bit snappish at times, etc. The characters I would prefer to write about would be more realistic (except if they are purposely meant to be a personification or embodiment of something, some virtue, vice, or what have you). We all have things about ourselves that we wouldn't mind changing but sometimes can't help. Maybe we'd like to be nicer or more sure of ourselves. Still, this doesn't make us bad people.

Hope this made some sense!

And if you have a bad character that you really want to show up as mean and selfish, put at least one very good character alongside him who will show, just by being the opposite, how bad this character really is.

An interesting concept... must think about that one!

Kitanna

02-02-2005, 05:38 PM

Mmm, I don't know how I would explina my idea of flawed. So I'll have to think about how I want to say it and still make sense, but I can say what I think a perfect character is.
When I say perfect I mean they have nothing wrong with them. Such as their physical form is top notch. They're fit, they're strong, they can do anything. Pretty face, and never a hair out of place. But also I mean personailtywise, everyone loves them except the bad guys of the story. They never get angry, they never falter and they never question their own motives. They're nice, funny, and smart and always have the answer to every question.
I want to say a "flawed" person is on the opposite end of that. But not quite. I'm just gonna stick with this as my definition of flawed (though after reading what Nurumaiel said I'm going to change my word choice.) Every person is flawed in some way. Maybe they're not smart, maybe their not fit, they can't answer every question, and they're not always nice and they get angry. Stuff like that. That's at least what I think.

Nurumaiel

02-02-2005, 06:05 PM

Enca,
The seemingly perfect woman can either be annoying in her perfection, or a deep and genuinely good person.

Very good point. On the one hand you have a character who is rather like Elsie Dinsmore... she's very good, very pretty, etc. Why did I dislike her so much when I read the book? Why would I dislike a girl who is good, as Elsie is? The conclusion I came up with was this: it's because of the author's overwhelming presence. I don't exactly like Elsie just in herself... but the way the author uses all the other characters as puppets to make Elsie look better, and the way she obviously presents Elsie as an ideal character that everyone else isn't and should be living up to.

On the other hand, you have a character like, as one example, one of the saints. They're very good, and often reach the highest point of goodness that anyone can reach, but so very often they're surrounded by people who are also good and saintly, and rather than standing there to 'set an example' for everyone, they concern themselves with being good, and the example comes with it. Though I have read some stories of saints where the author portrayed them as the annoying kind of good person.

We could take another example from Tolkien's books. Frodo is a very good person, that cannot be denied. He even has that oddness that can be found in many Mary-Sues. He's an Elf-friend and all that, when a typical hobbit is nothing of the sort. But I haven't yet met a person who will complain that Frodo is 'too perfect.' And again I think it's because of the author. Frodo exists along with many other good characters, and that helps greatly. But I think the greatest thing that makes him a realistic character rather than the absolutely perfect character is that he is in the story as a character, existing in his own way. Whilst Tolkien is writing of him he doesn't pause every few moments to sigh: "Ah! how ideal Frodo is! I have personified the ideal hobbit. I must show him to the world and try to show these immoral people how they really should behave. Ah, precious, precious, holy, saintly Frodo!"

From what I gather from your posts, Enca and Kitanna, we're much in agreement of what 'flawed' actually is. 'Flawed' doesn't mean they have to be murderers, or be at the extreme of any vice. But they still have places to go. There's a possibility of becoming better. They still have something to fight for, even if it's merely inside of themselves.

Thanks for all your interesting input so far. :)

Atarah

02-03-2005, 04:51 AM

I've always loved writing, and a few years ago (two years ago on Feb 14th in fact) I decided I'd write a book and go about it properly. I started by coming up with a rough idea for a plot, then drew a map. Strangly the next thing I did was come up with a language for one of the races to speak. I was really into writing the book and so far it's 49 pages of A4 long, font size 12 (i think). I have so many ideas for it, and even ideas for other books set at different points along the time line of the wolrd I created, but unfortunately I'm too lazy to add to it. I also think that the style I've written it in needs to be changed. I put in too much dialogue and not enough description. I also think my main character is a bit Mary Sue... Oh well. I'm sure I'll get round to finishing it one day. I think I mentioned this book on the old thread when I used to be active a few years ago under a different name. I've called it "Eidu Are" which is the name of the "country" the book is set in. I really want to finish it and start work on the sequels. Plus I really want to know if it's good enough to publish :rolleyes:

Aiwendil

02-03-2005, 10:41 AM

Some very interesting discussion of perfect and flawed characters. I quite agree with Nurumaiel that it is a mistake to overcompensate and, in an effort to avoid perfection, to pile all kinds of flaws upon a character. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there really is nothing disastrously wrong with a perfect character. That is, the mere fact that a character is perfect is not itself detrimental to a work. However I think that there are three dangers with such a character:

1. The work will suffer if the character is annoyingly perfect. There is a natural human tendency to simultaneously admire and dislike those that we perceive as better than us. To an extent, you may be able to inspire admiration for the character in the reader. However, if the perfection of the character is dwelt upon, this can easily turn to dislike.

2. A perfect character is less likely to be believable. Now there are people who are incredibly talented at a wide range of things and who have no discernible flaws. But there are not many of them. Populating one's story with such characters is therefore simply not realistic. There are exceptions - if you provide some reasonable explanation for the fact that your world is filled with this kind of person, you may make it believable. For example, Arthur C. Clarke's The City and the Stars dealt with an incredibly advanced and incredibly stable society the inhabitants of which had long ago eliminated most flaws. To take perhaps a better known example, look at the characters in Star Trek's semi-Utopian future (particularly in The Next Generation).

3. Perhaps most importantly, a perfect character is less interesting than a flawed character. Now this is not necessarily a problem unless your story relies on its characterization to provide interest. A strongly plot-based story can get by with less interesting characters than a character-based story (obviously). Minor characters also need not be profoundly fascinating if that burden is shouldered by the major characters. But all too often, I think, inexperienced writers rely too much on uninteresting characters to provide interest. Worse, some actually expect that the reader will be interested in a character precisely because that character has a long list of talents and virtues and no flaws (though it does occur to me that one might generate an interesting character by taking perfection to the extreme - that would be a special, and curious, case).

I also don't think that it is necessarily flaws that make a character interesting. Flaws can be just as boring as talents if they are simply facts. My theory is that what makes a character interesting is complication. A character who is an incredibly good swimmer and has a fear of heights is not particularly interesting. But a character who is an incredibly good swimmer and has a fear of water is. The interest, then, is not generated by the mere fact that the character is flawed; it is generated by the complexity of a character with two apparently contradictory features. Complexity need not involve flaws. A character can also be made interesting by giving him or her complex views on some important subject, complex or contradictory desires, disparate conscious and subconscious opinions, and so forth.