The Valar and Men

[EnglishCountrySide]

Having read LOTR a couple of times and having some exposure to the other related materials, one thing seems to always make me scratch my head – the relationship between the Valar and non elfish races of ME. It just seems that the Valar would be hard pressed to care less about the struggles of other races. I know that they held the elves the most dear, but was there even much thought to condition of the other races? Are they not the protectors/overseers of all of ME? All of this leads me to series of questions –

Could they not have handled the Numenorians themselves or why did they feel that they must turn to Eru, especially since they handled the Morgoth situation?

If the elves had just come over the seas and not tallied in ME, therefore not exposing themselves to Morgoth’s evil, would there ever have been a war of wrath?

If Sauron had reclaimed the ring, and the remaining elves had safely made it off ME, would the Valar have done anything about his terrible reign or figured “oh well”?

Did they grieve for the losses suffered by all races or was it - lose a 100 elves, terrible – lose 10,000 Men, sh*t happens?

If they did not have a great love for Men, was it bound to jealousy in that Men were not bound to ME, while they must remain in it till the end?

If they envied this gift of death, did that play a part in their actions toward the mannish races?

Was the inaction of the Valar in the third age purposefully done due to other reasons than just because most elves were already with them safe in Aman? (And would they have reacted differently if many more elves had been at risk?)

Were they really guardians of ME or just guardians of elf kind?

As stated above I am not a Tolkien expert and some, if not all, of these have probably been debated in other threads. They are just some questions I have in reconciling how the races of middle earth were held in relation to the Valar. Maybe I am wrong in some of my points, but whatever answers anyone can give would be helpful.

Thanks

[Orald]

Wow, lots of questions.

I will answer a few that I know off hand only with the exception that these are not debatable answers.

Could they not have handled the Numenorians themselves or why did they feel that they must turn to Eru, especially since they handled the Morgoth situation?

True. Under the Leadership of Sauron, Tolkien states the Valar would have had grievous losses.(From Letters)

If the elves had just come over the seas and not tallied in ME, therefore not exposing themselves to Morgoth’s evil, would there ever have been a war of wrath?

It didn't happen, why bother asking? But yes, there would have been because they were exposed to Morgoth via the Black Rider at their Awakening.

If Sauron had reclaimed the ring, and the remaining elves had safely made it off ME, would the Valar have done anything about his terrible reign or figured “oh well”?

Yes, they were trying to get the peoples of ME to do it themselves with as little intervening as possible, but remember the Istari were still sent, and even after Gandalf died, he came back stronger than before.

Did they grieve for the losses suffered by all races or was it - lose a 100 elves, terrible – lose 10,000 Men, sh*t happens?

Why was this asked? you should know the answer.

If they did not have a great love for Men, was it bound to jealousy in that Men were not bound to ME, while they must remain in it till the end?

This is pointless because they had great love of men.

If they envied this gift of death, did that play a part in their actions toward the mannish races?

Yes and No, they didn't bring them to the undying lands because they died, but that was the extent.

Was the inaction of the Valar in the third age purposefully done due to other reasons than just because most elves were already with them safe in Aman? (And would they have reacted differently if many more elves had been at risk?)

What inaction? They sent the Istari. If comparing this to the First Age rescue, I think you can see that it was a last resort and it would have also occurred if Sauron would have received the ring again.

Were they really guardians of ME or just guardians of elf kind?

It says in the books, don't it? why ask here? Guardians of all Ea.

[Kiara]

I will not be of much help as my thought is a question along similar lines:

What about Tolkien's attitude toward men? And hobbits and dwarves for that matter?

If elves were the Valar's special charge, and yet Tolkien has an obvious regard for Hobbits (and clearly compassion for Aragorn, if not all the other men...) then what was the original intent in the Valar's design in ME--never to have such other interesting creatures? (not to mention the also obvious traits that Dwarves and the men of Rohan share with many of the Valar described in the Silmarillion).

Isn't more fuel to this fire fun?

[Aule]

I think i might be able to answer one of the last questions.
You said that the Valar took no action during the 3rd age to help the races of ME. But they did, they sent the wizards to provide assistance to Men and Elves. But they were sent back in a deliberately weakend form so that they would have to find other ways to help in the fight against Sauron other the brute force.
The Valar had bad experiances when dealing with men in the past. ie When the numenorians began to rebel and eventually did. The Numenorian didn't pay attention to Manwes Herald (i forget his name) when he came to talk to them and council them on the reasons why they were not allowed to enture to Erresea (spelling?).
The Valar found that direct intervention in the lives of men only led to misunderstanding and further trouble. That is why the Istari were sent in a form of lessend power and majesty.

I have sometimes wondered why the Valar never took a more active interest in the lives of Men when the first awoke. If they had done so then, men would not have come under the influence of Melkor and would therefore not fear death (as it was Melkor that first put the idea into there minds that death was to be feared), without this fear of death Numenor would never have rebeled.
I'm not good at getting my ideas across but i hope i have been of some help in answering a few of your questions

[EnglishCountrySide]

Thanks for replies. I really didn’t want to make it sound like the Valar didn’t care for Men or not love them, maybe just treat them differently. Kind of like how a parent may treat a favorite child (Elves) versus another (Men, Dwarves, etc) Trying to look at it from the Valar perspective, how can you weigh an immortal life against one or more mortal lives. The Valar obviously would feel a special bond with the elves, as they are both bound to the fate of Ea, but it just seems like a greater degree of indifference exists when it comes to Men, Hobbits, etc. Enough of a degree that it just makes me curious. Maybe because they realize the value of the gift of death and knowing that Men are maybe going to a “better place” (though I don’t know if it is said exactly where they go). Though extraordinarily powerful and wise, I don’t know if the Valar are above envy, pettiness, or some other traits. One of their own and several other lower Ainur had “fallen”. I can also understand why they would want to take an advisory role if possible (via the Istari). I just wonder how the events of ME would have shaken out after the fall of Numenor had the Valar taken more of an active interest in ME. Not just even in the direct ways, but in also in the “hey we are the powers of ME, we exist and can maybe help you with wise counsel, just give us a call” kind of way. (though maybe via fewer channels, since everyone could ask for advise on everything)

Thanks again for the replies.

[Kuruharan]

and even after Gandalf died, he came back stronger than before.


Excellent post Durelen. One minor note that has some relevance to the topic at hand. Iluvatar was the one who intervened and sent Gandalf back, not the Valar. Tolkien states that the Valar's plan for the Istari failed in the moment of Gandalf's death. However, Iluvatar stepped in and enlarged the plan of the Valar. (Letter 156)

What the Valar would have done if Eru had allowed their plan to fail must remain opaque to us mere mortals.

I have sometimes wondered why the Valar never took a more active interest in the lives of Men when the first awoke. If they had done so then, men would not have come under the influence of Melkor...

Alas, they were rather preoccupied at the time by the mischief of Melkor.

And also they were having a nasty spat with the Noldor who had just returned to Middle earth and they did not really want to get involved there again.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Maédhros]

Could they not have handled the Númenóreans themselves or why did they feel that they must turn to Eru, especially since they handled the Morgoth situation?
I guess that they could have handled the situation themselves, but since Manwë has direct resort to Eru, he thought that it was better. Maybe Manwë wouldn't have had the "resolve" to destroy Númenor as Eru did.
If the elves had just come over the seas and not tallied in ME, therefore not exposing themselves to Morgoth’s evil, would there ever have been a war of wrath?
I would hope that the Valar had intervened a lot earlier, preventing a lot of damage done by Melkor.
If Sauron had reclaimed the ring, and the remaining elves had safely made it off ME, would the Valar have done anything about his terrible reign or figured “oh well”?
Sadly, I think that they would have done nothing. I think that in some letter it states that Sauron was a problem that Men had to deal with.
Did they grieve for the losses suffered by all races or was it - lose a 100 elves, terrible – lose 10,000 Men, sh*t happens?
I think that they cared too for the other races, just that they couldn't be involved in the same way that they could of the elves.
If they did not have a great love for Men, was it bound to jealousy in that Men were not bound to ME, while they must remain in it till the end?
I think that they had a great love for Men, especially Ulmo.
If they envied this gift of death, did that play a part in their actions toward the mannish races?
While even Manwë could envy this gift, he wouldn't do anything to hamper Men.
Was the inaction of the Valar in the third age purposefully done due to other reasons than just because most elves were already with them safe in Aman? (And would they have reacted differently if many more elves had been at risk?)
Not really, Men where the ones to inherit ME, so they were the ones who had to deal with Sauron.
Were they really guardians of ME or just guardians of elf kind?
Of the world, one would think. smilies/wink.gif

[Orald]

Did I imply the Valar gave Gandalf the supercharge? I am sorry if I did, I did not mean too.

Also, there is an excellent quote I have for the evils of Melkor and Sauron.

And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.


Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.