Greatest Man of Middle-Earth??

[Mattius]

Okay, I know there has been a topic like this regarding elves and I would have prefered to have who is the greatest dwarf topic but they do not feature as heavily in the stories as Men do. So I ask you, who was the greatest man. A few spring to my mind; Aragorn, Tuor, Isildur? I think I will go for Turin though, despite that nasty little business with his sister. He has been my favourite, possibly because he is so damn cursed. Sympathy and awe, he was so tall and mighty looking he was often mistaken for an elf, or I think he was, haven't read the Silm. for a while. But he did kill a Dragon so there you go. Plus his dad was hard too.

[Legolas]

Húrin. smilies/cool.gif

Beren had great potential, but only utilized it in his quest for...well...guess.

This matter actually was discussed here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001618).

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Galorme]

Tuor was counted as an elf I believe. Does that mean he was not a man? How about Agmar? He was the most powerful man i believe. Beren, if only because i would love to be like him. He is so brave and carefree, "Go invade angband" "k". To be able to just decide things like that, and the way they always work out. I think Beren was just lucky, thats why he always won. I mean his luck (or fate whatever) was stronger than Death, which was a gift from Eru. So his fate can contest with the will of Eru.

Ah theres an interesting question. Fate definatly plays a part in Arda. Was Fate controled by Eru, or was it an a priori power that was there before him? Is Eru subject to fate?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Fate in Arda, I think, involves the powers of Light and Dark and such. I believe that Eru is fate.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Beren:

1. Married the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, Luthien Tinuviel.
2. Traveled Dungortheb by paths not dared by any other Man or Elf.
3. Could not be barred by the Girdle of Melian.
4. Faced Morgoth and stole a Silmaril (with help of course).
5. Only Man to go to the Halls of Mandos and come back.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[WarBringer]

Isildur-By cutting the ring from saurons hand, he eventually ended his reign of terror

[Kuruharan]

Only Man to go to the Halls of Mandos and come back.


I don't see what this has to do with it. He had no say in the matter. That was because of Luthien.

This is going to be a first but I agree with Legolas. Húrin's the Man.

Faced Morgoth and stole a Silmaril (with help of course).

Actually, Beren did not exactly "face" Morgoth. Slunk underneath the throne is more like it.

Húrin not only faced Morgoth, he defied Morgoth to his face for a couple of years. (That's years mind you.) And he was utterly powerless to do anything about it and he still refused to break.

Compared to that the other of his numerable feats of arms, including but not limited to fighting alone against an army, breaking the siege of Eithel Sirion, etc..., all seem rather puny.

As the only Man who ever personally faced and defied The Great Enemy of the World, I don't understand how anyone could make any other nominations.

[Orald]

I would like to believe Hurin was, but he seems to be all too similar to Fingolfin in relation to what he is good at. Beren is more parallel to Luthien, and he rightfully deserves it. As do many, but just like in real life, not everyone gets what the deserve.

[burrahobbit]

A couple, Kuruharan? More like a couple dozen!

Hurin was hard core.

[Legolas]

Galorme - who is this Agmar you speak of?

WarBringer - Isildur cut the Great Ring from the hand of a dead Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad defeated Sauron, and in doing so, were slain themselves. The dirty work was already done for Isildur. The movie portrayal is inaccurate.

[the drumk høbbit]

what about beorn, can change shape n was abel to tourn around the whole battle of five armies

other. turin, hurin and aragorn

[Rimbaud]

Hurin gets my vote.

[Atariel]

It was totally Aragorn, or Beren. no doubt about it. and have you READ the last page of the Aragron-Arwen appendice? his speech is SOOOOO beautiful. i cry every time i read it.

[Legolas]

The end of the Third Age and beginning of the Fourth saw men that weren't on the level of those in the First or Second Ages. Aragorn stood out simply because he was one of the last reflections of those great men of FA/SA. His circumstances were different - he had more chance to shine. When placed in an earlier period, I'm sure he still would've proved successful, but without so much surrounding glory.

[Kuruharan]

Durelen:

but he seems to be all too similar to Fingolfin in relation to what he is good at.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean that all Húrin was good at was fighting and such, while Beren aspired to a higher plane? Is that close to what you mean?

Atariel:

and have you READ the last page of the Aragron-Arwen appendice? his speech is SOOOOO beautiful. i cry every time i read it.

No doubt. However, aside from what Legolas has already capably stated, his ability to make beautiful speeches is not the issue. The issue is the greatness of their souls. While nobody doubts that Aragorn was a fantastic and splendid guy, he did not personally face The Great Enemy of the World, or hopelessly defy said Great Enemy of the World for years (remember Morgoth prevented Húrin from dying so there was no escape for him at all!)

With all due respect to Aragorn, when compared to Húrin he falls far short, despite his ability to move everyone to tears with his eloquence.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Galorme]

Agmar (is that spelt right?) was the leader of the Nazgul. Well actually he wasn't, as it wasn't a he, it was a place. But he ruled there, and was known as the Witch Kind of Agmar (have i spelt that right????). So yeah i say that because he had a lot of power. It might not have been "his" technically, but he weilded it, and it made him powerful. I still say Beren, as he was just wonderful in every way.

[the mortal elf]

Does Beorn actually count as a man? If he does, my vote goes to him. I would say Hurin or Beren, but all (or most) of the men in the Sil just seemed...so corrupt as compared to the elves. I know that's unfair because elves are immortal, but that's just the way I picture it. Beorn at least doesn't have such high standards to live up to, so he doesn't have to be perfect to be a great man (that is, if he counts as one, being part bear...) smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Actually, Beren did not exactly "face" Morgoth. Slunk underneath the throne is more like it.

And then cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown after Luthien sung him to sleep. You did note that I said with help? Beren (and Luthien) accomplished what the Noldor with all of their armies could not. One thing I forgot for my list before- Beren reclaimed a Silmaril twice: once from Morgoth, and once from the Dwarves of Novgorod after they murdered Thingol and stole it with the Nauglamir.

The fact that Luthien got Beren out of the Halls doesn't change the fact that he went and came back.

I do see the case for Hurin as well though. For single acts of heroism amongst Men, defying Morgoth to his face for years has tp be the top. Let's not forget, however, that Hurin was the one who led Morgoth to the location of Gondolin.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Candidates in alphabetical order are:

Aragorn
Beren
Earendil
Elendil
Elros
Hurin
Tuor
Turin

Some might question Turin, but despite his doom and mistakes, he was truly a great leader, and in many respects combined the best of Hurin, Tuor and Beren. It's clear that despite everything, the Elves consider him among the very greatest of the Elf-friends, which would include Hador, too, based on Elrond's ending speech at the Council in praise of Frodo. And lets not forget Barahir and Beor.

If one consider all of the diverse aspects of Beren's stories, he is truly special, and perhaps the noblest and most admirable of the ancient Elf-friends.

Hurin is clearly the greatest warrior of all time, and his selfless act will forever stand amoung the greatest of deeds.

Earendil and Elros might be disqualified for being too Half-Elven as it were, but they are counted among Men, and were certainaly tremendous personages, perhaps, unrivaled among any other mortal man.

Tuor was a pureborn Man, even if as is suggested, he was given the life of an Elf to live with Idril in enternity somewhere/somehow, which is probably perfectly unique among all mortals, including the ringbearers. He is perhaps the tallest, maybe second only to Thingol and Turgon among all the Children of Iluvatar. But he in many ways is the model for the future Numenoreans, and clearly the most special and perfect of all Men in Tolkien's depiction. In some ways the Anti-Turin, but then again Fate was clearly kinder to Tuor.

Elendil is in many ways the return of Tuor, probably as tall, and as able to win the loves of both kindred. Clearly, in Elrond's eyes, he was incredible as a leader and King.

Finally, I vote for Aragorn, as the culmination of his ancestors, and the ultimate vindicator of all of their successess and shortcomings. His Wisdom shows that so much was learned, and he clearly walks in the shoes of Elendil, Elros, Earendil, Tuor, Turin and Beren.

[Kuruharan]

One small note before we get started.

Dwarves of Novgorod

Novgorod is an ancient and culturally significant city located in northern Russia.

Nogrod, on the other hand, was the citadel in the Blue Mountains of the Firebeard Dwarves. Its real name was Tumunzahar.

There's a small difference between the two cities.

And then cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown after Luthien sung him to sleep.

Let me re-emphasize, after Luthien sung him to sleep. She did all the hard work of beating the Will of Morgoth, while Beren cowered before the throne. While it undoubtedly required great strength of character to approach even the unconscious form of Morgoth and cut the Silmaril, it simply does not bear comparison to Hurin's ordeal. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth of it.

One thing I forgot for my list before- Beren reclaimed a Silmaril twice: once from Morgoth, and once from the Dwarves of Novgorod (Nogrod) after they murdered Thingol and stole it with the Nauglamir.


And recovered it from the Great Wolf Carcharoth. I hate to say this about something as grand as these feats, but color me unimpressed. He was not alone when he went to Angband. He had the aid of the greatest child of Iluvatar (who as I said earlier actually did most of the dirty work from the time she rescued him from Sauron down to the very end). And they had a goal that they could accomplish, obtaining a Silmaril, even though that goal looked absurd.

Hurin was alone with Morgoth (Great Enemy of the World, you remember him). Faced the greatest primordial spirit ever created, eye to eye (no small feat), and basically spat in Morgoth's eye. Hurin had no goal but resistance to the Will of Morgoth, for all that Hurin knew, for the rest of Time. A MUCH more difficult task than anything Beren and Luthien ever faced. (Well maybe with the exception of Luthien facing Mandos since she was actually challenging the Will of Iluvatar, but that had nothing to do with Beren. More on that later.)

About taking the Nauglamir (why is it that when Beren takes the Nauglamir by force its "taking" but when the Dwarves of Nogord, who actually made the blasted thing, take the Nauglamir by force it's called "stealing?") Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, it does not require extraordinary and spectacular courage to fight a battle against one of the normal races (Dwarves, Men, Elves, Orcs...) of Middle Earth. Not to say that it does not require courage, but literally thousands and thousands of people in the stories displayed the same type of courage. It does not show that Beren had and unusually large amount of it. Especially since Beren was being helped by walking trees, and those stuck-up, pointy-eared, tree-huggin' twits, uh-I mean Elves. So while this incident clearly showed that Beren was a murderous barbarian who needed to learn respect for his betters, it does not particularly show the greatness of his soul.

(Notice how this guy can't ever seem to do anything alone, while Hurin's claim to fame is his enduring while alone.)

The fact that Luthien got Beren out of the Halls doesn't change the fact that he went and came back.


No, but it changes any claim that may be made for him that the alleged greatness of his spirit was the reason why he got out.

Luthien was obviously the best thing that happened to Beren. What she got out of this deal I haven't quite figured out yet.

Let's not forget, however, that Hurin was the one who led Morgoth to the location of Gondolin.


Not totally. And not of his own free will.

Finally, I vote for Aragorn, as the culmination of his ancestors, and the ultimate vindicator of all of their successess and shortcomings. His Wisdom shows that so much was learned, and he clearly walks in the shoes of Elendil, Elros, Earendil, Tuor, Turin and Beren.


*Sigh* So many to convert, so little time.

As I have said a few times before, Greatest of all the Ainur vs. puny little mortal Hurin for years upon years, and Hurin did not give in. What exactly did Aragorn do? He went gallivanting about the countryside with Hobbits. His leadership of the Fellowship after Gandalf fell, er...(how to put this delicately) did not go so well. He then went charging across country with an Elf and a Dwarf chasing after Hobbits. He fought quite well at the Battle of Helm's Deep. Stove with Sauron's spirit, (no small feat). Had the brilliant strategic idea to halt the Enemy's fleet to prevent reinforcement. Had the even more brilliant tactical idea to use dead guys to scare the crap out of the Enemy's troops (using the Enemy's own power-troop type against him, if only Aragorn had kept them around longer.) Rescued Minas Tirith. Fought glorious Battle of Morannon. Was a Great King for a good long time. Obviously this was a wonderful guy.

However, the only thing that come close to Hurin is the struggle with Sauron. This was a spiritual struggle against a Sauron that was considerably weakened from his prime. Facing some enemy physically is much worse than just spiritually. When faced with a being like Morgoth or Sauron, then you have to face their spirit and their massive physical might at the same time. Hurin physically faced a Morgoth, who admittedly was not what he once was, but was still more than overwhelming in his majesty and terror. Hurin was a helpless prisoner. Hurin was not even going to have death as a means of escape from his torment. Hurin gave Morgoth a verbal spit in the eye.

If the category is the power of their spirit, their "greatness of soul" I still feel that the obvious choice to make is Hurin.

My complements though! I haven't enjoyed a Tolkien debate this much in months!
smilies/smile.gif

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Mhoram]

Man, you hit the nail on the head Kuruharan. Absolutely. I was thinking pretty much all of that before I read your post, thanks for typing it up for me.

Clearly, Beren is way overrated.

[Legolas]

For those of you who missed this part of the story, Eärendil was half-elven, and chose to share the elves' fate.

[the phantom]

Hurin is either #1 or #2 on my list. My other possibility is his son Turin.
Turin lived his entire adult life under the curse of the greatest being on earth, and also got on the bad side of the father of dragons. I think it's amazing what he accomplished despite being screwed from the very start.
First, he made a name for himself on the northern marches of Doriath, being named with Beleg as the greatest of Doriath's warriors.
Then he went into the wild and took over a band of men and did more harm to Morgoth's armies, once again making his territory feared by enemies.
After that he went to Nargothrond, and even though Orodreth was "in charge" it was clear from the books that Turin was basically ordering things the way he wanted. And I believe that is extremely telling, the fact that he rose to the absolute top of a powerful elvish kingdom, where there were great elf lords in abundance. He rose above even them. And once again, he did some serious damage to Morgoth while there.
After a run in with Glaurung, during which he showed no fear, he went on to Brethil and quickly established himself as the top dog there, and once again knocked Morgoth's forces around. And this was where he accomplished perhaps his greatest feat by slaying Glaurung.
Then finally, after having his eyes opened by Mablung, he basically realized that he was a plague everywhere he went because of Morgoth's curse, so he decided he would do no further harm and take his fate into his own hands, whereupon he took his life.
Considering how tragic his life was, losing his first sister, being seperated from his father, then being seperated from his mother, being wrongfully accused in Doriath, accidentally killing his best friend Beleg, losing Finduilas, and finally marrying his sister, I think what Turin still managed to do was amazing. I would've snapped under those same circumstances. I think if he would've been given a better chance, such as being born before his lands and people in Dor-lomin fell, he would've become the greatest lord of men ever known.
I also think it's interesting that in early writings of The Last Battle (at the end of the world), Tolkien said that it would be Turin with his black sword that would deal Melkor his death blow, and called Turin the conqueror of fate, and named him among the Gods. Apparantly, Tolkien thought he was pretty special.
Forgive my long post, but I just love the tragic hero that tries his best to rise above his human flaws and less than perfect circumstances.
Like father, like son. Hurin and Turin are on top of my list.

[Mhoram]

Isildur cut the Great Ring from the hand of a dead Sauron.

I just want to clairify, I think my good friend Legalos here misspoke. Sauron wasn't really dead persay, defeated was the word used by Tolkien. I don't think we know if Sauron was concious or not, infact he may have already 'forsaken' his body, gone off into spirit form.

[Legolas]

Indeed - his physical incarnation had passed in the same manner that Gandalf's body had when he passed from exhaustion after the duel with Durin's Bane.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

There are actually only two possibilities, Húrin Thalion and Túrin Turambar. Nothing done by Aragorn is anything compared to them.

Beren of course stole the Silmaril from the Crown of Morgoth, but actually it was all done by Lúthien. Beren done almost nothing, except got caught up by Sauron.

Húrin was a great warrior. Remember his deeds when he defended Turgon. When everybody else were slain, he still fought and believed that Morgoth will face his end. Even though the Orcs would have been trying to kill him, I don't think they could have done that much sooner. I think that Gothmog would have met his end much sooner, if fought with Húrin.

And after taken to Angband, he defied Morgoth for 28 years, spat on his face, and I think would have lasted even longer, if would not have been released. As somebody said, there was no escape for Húrin, for he couldn't move or even die, so it was an eternal doom. But I think Húrin would have given up anyways. He defied the Greatest of the Beings of Arda. It was no small deed.

I don't think that many elf could have done better.

Túrin was the second choise. But unlike his father he really feared Morgoth and his doom, and instead of facing his destiny he ran from it. Anyways he did great job in killing Glaurung, though like a thief, without even giving Glaurung a chance. Húrin would have faced Glaurung on open. That would probably have been his doom, though. But the destiny of Túrin - to slay Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath was great, and gives him more points.

But still I must say that it's Húrin Thalion. The Greatest of the Warriors of Men, and I think, also the Greatest of Men.

[Kuruharan]

I also think it's interesting that in early writings of The Last Battle (at the end of the world), Tolkien said that it would be Turin with his black sword that would deal Melkor his death blow, and called Turin the conqueror of fate, and named him among the Gods. Apparently, Tolkien thought he was pretty special.


Agreed. However, I believe that Tolkien ultimately discarded that notion. Although I'm not sure that he ever really replaced it with anything. I think that he left the events of The End rather up in the air.

However, I still have to go with the father over the son. Certainly Turin lived a rough life. Even if Tolkien discarded the notion that Turin killed Morgoth in The End, Turin was clearly an important figure possessed of great strength of spirit.

Alas, he didn't use it very well. He was emotionally volatile, prone to wild outbursts, and rash actions.

Hurin was more, well, steadfast.

And there's that nagging issue about actual physical presence of The Greatest Enemy in the History of the World and so forth. For me that takes the cake!

Absolutely. I was thinking pretty much all of that before I read your post, thanks for typing it up for me.

I live to keep others from getting carpal-tunnel syndrome! smilies/wink.gif

[Beren87]

To bring this up from absolutly nowhere because it's very late, I found these words in HOME 4.

Yet Thingol would not take the hoard and long he bore with Húrin, but Húrun scorned him, and wandered forth in search of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth; and some have said that he cast himself as last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.

Thats says he was the greatest of all warriors. I'm not sure if that would qualify him for greatest period, but it does make a point.

However, Turin is prophicised by Mandos to stand next to Tulkas in the last battle and strike the blow of death against Morgoth. That might be just the revenge of the line of Húrin against Morgoth however. But Húrin could just as easily stand beside Tulkas.

[Maédhros]

Húrin is the man. After what he did in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and defying Morgoth the way he did, he has no rival. (Maybe his son Túrin). But Beren cannot be compared to him.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I certainly appreciate the strong cases for Húrin and Túrin. Clearly, Tolkien and the Elves recognize them as Great, and lets not forget Faramir's reverence for Húrin more than 6,000 years later.

I also like the points about Isíldur. What he did in Númenor in saving the scion of the Tree, with the Men of Dunharrow, and reaching Elendil in the North are all tremendous, and in contrast to the Film (which does give a defensible portrayal), I see the cutting off of the One Ring to be much less inadvertent, but rather an assertive act, even if Gil-Galad and Elendil had already landed blows. Actually, I've always seen Elendil has having already cut Sauron down, which seems rather unparalleled. As for Isíldur, however, his subsequent failure was so profound that it seems to knock him out of the running, although he is redeemed by his contrition and humility, as shown at the Gladden Fields.

Still, I must say that Beren and Aragorn get a bum rap above. Also, though Eárendil chose the life of the Elves, it was only at Elwing's behest. He felt closest to Men, and seems to have been more like one, before making his choice. So, I count him and Elros as Men. But first let me bring some perspective to Húrin and Túrin.

Húrin showed great wisdom, being more patient than many Elves. Arguably, Gwindor's rashness is the beginning of the problem that day, as much as the Easterling's treachery. Ironically, Gwindor later criticizes the rashness of Húrin's son. Without argument, Húrin is the greatest Warrior, but is the greatest Warrior necessarily the greatest Man?

His courage in front of something like Morgoth is awesome, but I'm sure that like Beren he was afraid. And who's to say that Beren in the same situation wouldn't have been as steadfast. Wisely, Beren was trying to be undiscovered. So, cowering seems quite excusable. Had he no place to hide like Húrin, who can say how he would have done. Húrin finally fell under a spell easily broken by Melian. While again understandable, it remains lamentable that he could not see lies for lies, and was so quick in his pride to assume that the Morgoth's enemies had not actually aided his family at every turn.

Turning now to Túrin, it is rewarding to see others not dismiss this tragic figure, whom Tolkien wisely interprets as incredibly valiant. Although he had opportunities to break from his fate, it was an incomparable burden, under which he could have shown far less nobility than he did. Ironically, though about the Elves, the Silmarillion often comes across casting Men to be better leaders. Nevertheless, Túrin did have chances to not be so rash, not so easily beguiled, and not so prideful; it was not entirely Morgoth’s curse that causes his character flaws, but as with Boromir, who is much like Túrin, he is clearly redeemed in the end, not necessarily by suicide itself, but there I think the morale is that though normally wrong, it is at that point for Túrin an Act of holy catharsis.

Now, we turn to Beren, who is somehow less of a Man because he turns to others for help, because he lets Lúthien do great things, because he listens and trust in others and does not always put his pride first! My, my, my … we seem to be putting old Beren down for rather “Macho” reasons. I don't see why it is necessarily better to go it alone like Túrin or Clint Eastwood!

I agree that Beren's Leadership at the Battle of Sarn Asthad was not necessarily a super great moment, and it is not treated as such in the books. His forces had the element of surprise, and may have been evenly matched with the Dwarves, who may have had a claim to what they stole, but not to the extent that simply attacking Thingol and later Doriath was any way justified, whereas Beren’s attack was. Still, the Green-Elves were not the most formidable of fighting forces, despite the colors of their Berets.

But lets look at a selective list of Beren's accomplishments, which to his credit go far beyond one fine day of axe swinging, and were not all by use of Arms, but entailed matters of character:

1, His deeds among Barahir's companions

2, His rescuing of the Ring of Felagund

3, His deeds as a solitary outlaw

4, His unrivaled traverse over Ered Gorgoroth, through Dungortheb and into Doriath

5, His tireless pursuit of Lúthien

6, His wooing of Lúthien

7, His nobility in front of Thingol

8, His persuasion of Finrod and others to his aid

9, His saving of Lúthien from two sons of Féanor (Leap of Beren)

10, His attempt to go to Angband alone, but willingness to accept Lúthien’s power

11, His unwillingness to give up the quest, because of his and Lúthien's honor

12, His secreting into the pits the Hell

13, Protecting Lúthien from Carcharoth

14, Surviving and returning to Thingol and gaining his blessing

15, The final hunt and saving of Thingol's life.

16, Tarrying in the Halls of Mandos

17, Living a life of peace, in obedience to the Valar, thereafter and siring the first of the great lineage.

Now, there's poor Aragorn who has become a mere baby-sitter of Hobbits, and for which a few moments of indecision in leading the Fellowship are a major problem.

Lets consider how over his long life he not only redeemed his own few failings, but redeemed all the race of Men and the failings of his ancestors through Arnor, Isíldur, the Kings of Númenor and even the tragic Édain like Túrin.

Or, don't forget that he acted prudently but bravely his whole life, resisted the lure of the Ring, was steadfast in his pursuit of the Evil Powers, escaped their attempts to capture him, wooed one nearly as lofty as Lúthien, gave her the Ring of Felagund, acquired the great Elfstone, and through to his dying day exhibited wisdom and humility.

For seventy some years prior to meeting Frodo, he had become the greatest Hero of that Age of Men, traversing the world and foiling works of the enemy. Think if he had not destroyed the forces at Umbar in the raid he led under Denethor's father. If not for that, the forces of Umbar would have been much stronger by the time of War of the Rings. They could have overwhelmed Gondor's coastal navies, and launched a real expeditionary force. As it were, they could only break up the Lower Anduin and engage in a blocking maneuver. (Southern Gondor was not really under threat ruin from them directly, but only unable to aid Minas Tirith sufficiently, because of this diversionary tactic which Aragorn brilliantly countered) And through all that, he found time to be the Chieftain of the Dunédain of the North, which provided selfless and indispensable security to the Shire and other places.

Now, lets look at what he did during the War of the Rings, before becoming the first King of the Fourth Age, and a Lord of all Free Peoples for more than a hundred years, in which he delivered peace and prosperity, and saw to the destruction of Sauron’s military legacy. Túrin and Húrin may not have had such an opportunity, or Elendil for that matter, but I think Aragorn was more than just lucky.

1.He protected four still naïve Hobbits from the Nazgûl, fought them directly, and cured others such as Faramir affected by the Evil Breath

2.Brought back and renamed the Sword that was Broken.

3.Always saw the Ring for what it was, and did not try to claim his crown too quickly

4.Made the right decision in using the Palantír, and seriously weakened Sauron’s confidence and the carefulness of his hitherto plans.

5.Led the three runners across the fields of Rohan

6.Successfully led forces at the battles of Helm’s Deep, Pelargir, and Pellennor Fields, and didn’t just go down in glorious defeat. Sometimes winning is better than losing, and all the more remarkable when outnumbered.

7.But he was prepared to fulfill the ultimate sacrifice before the Gates of Mordor, where he might have equaled Húrin.

8.Oh yeah … the Paths of the Dead.

So, my vote remains with Strider.

[burrahobbit]

Hurin stared down Sauron's boss for 28 years. Aragorn would probably pee himself if that ever happened to him. Hurin killed 70 trolls in one night, how many did Aragorn kill ever? How many did he run away from?

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Who knows, but I think Aragorn could have remained unenthralled by Morgoth, and perhaps succeeded in not be duped by him. Didn't it occur to Hurin how he was able to see so much?

As for the Trolls, surely the greatest feat of any Warrior, but is that the only measure of a Man? Perhaps Aragorn tried to avoid such situation, and actually win the day and reign in peace.

[burrahobbit]

Aragorn was tuckered out after a spiritual battle with Sauron that only lasted a few hours. I couldn't see him lasting against a more powerful spirit (Morgoth) for one hundredth of the time that Hurin went for. And Hurin only stopped lasting as soon as he did because he was let go. Morgoth gave up trying to beat him.

[Mattius]

I disagree that "Morgoth let him go", there is a quote in the Silm. (I haven't got a copy with me) that says something like, Morgoth would take prisoners and then after years of torture simply let them go to create rumours between the Men and Elves. It goes on to say that the realised would be shunned. I believe that this is what happened with Hurin.

To pick up on an eailer point, greatness does not always have to be measured with might. Perhaps it took much more courage for Beren to cut the Great Jewel from the Iron Crown than it ever did for Hurin to stand up to Morgoth. However, if it was in Hurins character to defy the Evil One then surely he is the greatest.

Sorry about going in circles, I have started a topic that has so many answers!

[Beren87]

On the matter of the number of Orcs killed by Aragorn, I believe the number to be in excesses of Húrin's 70. The stand at Moria, then at Amun Súl, the again at Helm's deep, , then again in front of the gates of Mordor itself.

However Orcs, as men have, dwindled in size and strength throughout the ages (with the exception of the Uruk Hai which were killed by Aragorn) which means Húrin's Orcs were much "tougher" than Aragorn's.

[Legolas]

There were orcs at Amon Sûl?

[burrahobbit]

Who is talking about orcs, Beren87? It certainly wasn't me. It was trolls that Hurin killed 70 of. As far as I can tell Aragorn never killed a single one.

While physical prowess is not the measure of greatness, Hurin fought a spiritual battle with Morgoth for nearly three decades, and won. Spiritual prowess is the measure of greatness.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Hurin's immediate bravery in encountering Morgoth and being unswayed by will of the Mightest Vala is remarkable, and such resistence incredible, but his choices were few, and it was probably quite draining, but he didn't quite keep it up for thirty-some years. Rather he sat there and lapped up what Morgoth chose to show him.

Aragorn for his part chose to confront Sauron, and not only resisted Sauron's will, but overcame it, wresting the Palantir from Sauron, and making Sauron see what Aragorn wanted him to see.

Trolls and Orces, slice & dice.

This snippets are great way to build up Posts!

[Legolas]

On Aragorn's victory over Sauron, Letter No. 246:

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Of course, no "mortal" could, but apparently for JRR Tolkien, Aragorn would be closest. May we assume that puts him ahead of all other Mortals, or just those living at the End of the Third Age. Hmmm!

Just because Aragorn had some rights and privledges with the Palantir, doesn't mean that what he did was some trifle; it only means that he was doing the right thing.

[Beren87]

As to why I said Amon Súl I have no idea, what I meant to say was on the banks of the great river, (where Boromir fell don't have my books with me I think it was the Anduin)

And the word trolls was interchangable with Orcs in the Silm for most part.

Gothmog had a bodyguard of trolls, but otherwise they were not prominent in the wars of Beleriand. In later ages Sauron used trolls, but their value was limited by their stupidity

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[Mattius]

So has the list been narrowed down to four then?? Aragorn, Beren, Turin and Hurin? My top four would be in that order with Hurin 1st.

[burrahobbit]

And the word trolls was interchangable with Orcs in the Silm for most part.

What?

Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Hurin cried: 'Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off heir arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them.

Here we see both terms being used in the same place. Are they describing the same thing? I'd like to see where you got that idea.

[-Imrahil-]

Indeed, Hurin is probably the strongest. I know of no deeds by men that can match seventy trolls.

Perhaps Turin rivaled him, but never Aragorn/Beren, time for some research. It is hard to compare however.

[Beren87]

Hmm interesting...I wasn't doing that from the Silmirallion, but from HOME 4 which doesn't state that it was Húrin striking down the guard of Gothmog, but only that he was striking down enemies. Now i see and it makes sense.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Turin. trolls are tough yeah, but the original most awesome dragon (save ancalagon)?

[Lush]

I don't think that Aragorn is the greatest men per se, but statements such as:

The end of the Third Age and beginning of the Fourth saw men that weren't on the level of those in the First or Second Ages. Aragorn stood out simply because he was one of the last reflections of those great men of FA/SA. His circumstances were different - he had more chance to shine. When placed in an earlier period, I'm sure he still would've proved successful, but without so much surrounding glory.

Make me pout. I think Aragorn's greatest struggle was against himself. I think it takes some &@!!$ to do what he did, at a time when there was virtually no hope. The rise of Aragorn was the start of a new age for Men, and frankly, I don't think ya should trivialize it.

As for Beren, did Tolkien himself not write that what he and his girlfriend did amounted to something like the greatest freakin' deed in history? Granted, he wasn't alone, but he definitely didn't just sit on the sidelines and cheer her on, did he? I am not so sure if that qualifies him for "greatest man" title either, but stop trivializing, boys!

Luthien was obviously the best thing that happened to Beren. What she got out of this deal I haven't quite figured out yet.

Well, I'm sure he wasn't too ugly. smilies/wink.gif What else does a girl need? I won't get into that.

My point is, if you're going to define "greatness" per se, you're going to get some different interpretations. If greatness is indeed staring down Morgoth, as our man Hurin did, fine. But not everyone is going to think that way.

And didn't Hurin commit suicide? What's so great and mighty and brave about that?

Basically, I think there is room for all sorts of interpretations of greatness. So let us not be hasty, or righteous, boys.

[Legolas]

trolls are tough yeah, but the original most awesome dragon

Turin didn't exactly give him a fair fight, no?

Anyway, I'd take my chances against the dragon if given the choice.

We aren't trivializing Aragorn's deeds, or anything else. How you refute that the men of earlier ages were greater, I don't know. How many heroes of men do we have in the Third Age, a period longer than the previous ages, in relation to those ages that had past? No one said Aragorn was a mama's boy or anything!

Everyone here has opinions, and the purpose of this thread is for each to give his(/her) opinion and explain how that opinion was formed.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Lush you stole my remaining argument re: Beren = Tolkien.

I have another anyway: the Quenta Simarillion's central storyline is the fight to regain the Silmarils. Beren and Luthien accomplished 1/3 of that task. All the Noldor in hundreds of years of war didn't even get to see a Silmaril until the Valar intervened, except maybe Fingolfin.

After Beren regained the Silmaril from the Dwarves of Nogrod (Novgorod? ahh...reality intrudes, where are those pills smilies/smile.gif),Beren and Luthien were the only ones who managed possess a Silmaril in peace. And at the end of their lives they released their hold on the Simaril of their own accord, who else can say that?

I don't know what Luthien got out of the deal either, but the judgement of the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar has to weigh for something in Beren's favor.

The 70 for Hurin...was that trolls = 70 or orcs + trolls = 70? Still impressive either way.

Another idea....Luthien was the greatest of the Children. She became mortal. Wouldn't she then be the greatest woMan? I don't know that she counts for this. I've seen Elrond, Elros, and Tuor discounted for fuzzy lines between the races.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[Kuruharan]

Spiritual prowess is the measure of greatness.


Amen!

Hurin's immediate bravery in encountering Morgoth and being unswayed by will of the Mightest Vala is remarkable, and such resistence incredible, but his choices were few, and it was probably quite draining, but he didn't quite keep it up for thirty-some years. Rather he sat there and lapped up what Morgoth chose to show him.

Well, he had little choice about accepting what Morgoth showed him because he had no other point of reference for the events he viewed. Hurin maintained his resistance against Morgoth, which under the circumstances is all that can be expected.

and making Sauron see what Aragorn wanted him to see.


We don't know that. Aragorn made the palantir show him what he wanted to see. I seriously doubt that Aragorn forced Sauron to view anything. What could Aragorn show Sauron that would intimidate or impress Sauron anyway?

I don't see how these instances really bear comparison. As Legolas cited in the quote, there is a vast difference between having a (brief) spiritual encounter and being in the immediate physical presence of the original incarnation of evil and being under its immediate curse for years and years.

May we assume that puts him ahead of all other Mortals, or just those living at the End of the Third Age.

You got it!

As Legolas pointed out earlier, Tolkien was a firm believer in the gradual diminishing of the power and splendor of the world. This was an integral part of the history of Middle earth. Even the Valar were affected by this inevitable trend. In view of this, any great hero from the First Age is greater than those of later ages by default.

I have another anyway: the Quenta Simarillion's central storyline is the fight to regain the Silmarils.

Perhaps that gives Hurin another leg up. Those who were involved in the (greedy and unblessed) quest for the Silmarils seems to become besmirched in some way.

Hurin was captured because he was fighting out of duty to his lord. He was there because of his loyalty. He was resisting telling Morgoth the location of Gondolin. A matter that had nothing to do with the Silmarils. I think that because he was not trying to gain a Silmaril might actually be another point in his favor.

Another idea....Luthien was the greatest of the Children. She became mortal. Wouldn't she then be the greatest woMan?

Yes, after a fashion. We'll qualify the question to say the greatest of those who were born human.

Anyway, I still don't believe that there is anything to compare with Hurin's accomplishment. Staring down the Original Evil and managing to hold out for a couple of decades is a feat without peer. (Even among Elves.)

It is true that few other humans had the opportunity to exercise their endurance in a mano y mano contest of wills against Morgoth, but we must go with what we have.

Hurin's the Man!

[Lush]

Still, if you measure greatness by "spiritual prowess," (which is valid in of itelf, but as for me, I choose kindess, which is sort of a narrower definition of spiritual prowess...But I won't get into that right now), then how does Hurin's suicide fit into all this?

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Those who were involved in the (greedy and unblessed) quest for the Silmarils seems to become besmirched in some way.

I see your point here, and agree to the extent that it applies to those involved with Feanor and the Oath. Beren's quest had nothing to do with Feanor other than the jewels. Beren went after a Silmaril to give to Thingol in exchange for permission to marry Luthien. I see no besmirchment (is that a word? smilies/biggrin.gif) there.

If someone could weigh in on that 70 trolls, or 70 orcs + trolls I'd appreciate it. I do not want to reduce Hurin's stature (if that were even possible), but I lean toward the idea that not all 70 were trolls.

Hurin's actions contributed to the downfall of Gondolin. It says in the Sil. he did not trust Morgoth's release of him:

But he lied, for his purpose was that Húrin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.
Then little though he trusted the words of Morgoth, knowing indeed that he was without pity, Húrin took his freedom

Hurin should have stayed away from Gondolin, knowing Morgoth had an ulterior motive for releasing him.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Beren did not pursue the Silmarils for their own sake. His intentions even in retaining it after the Battle of Sarn Asthad were noble. It was only Thingol who was ensnared by the Doom of Mandos in that context.

One can talk about how the Men of later Ages were less than heroes like Hurin, which would be generally true, and perhaps, in general once again, the the Men & Elves around Aragorn did not measure up to those of the Elder Days, but in many ways Aragorn dealt with challenges, moral, political, military, and personal that were not like Hurin's, who's life and choices were more simple, and who could certainly have discounted whatever Morgoth revealed to him as likely falsehood; he may have been wiser to have gone forth seeking the truth. Also, these issues relate to stature, and in may be assumed that despite the diminishment of other men Aragorn was equal to Elendil and others of the Second Age in terms of the purity of his lineage, except that he was no longer the equal in lifespan of the House of Elros among the Kings of Numenor. In any case, I would submit that Elendil and others of the early Dunedain could be every bit the equal of their forefathers.

Finally, Aragorn showed Sauron Anduril and presented him with his on vulnerability. Even though Morgoth was far greater than Sauron, Hurin never put fear in Morgoth.

[obloquy]

Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.

We can't say for certain that every time Húrin 'slew' he was slaying a troll, however we may take his battlecry ('Day shall come again!') as a reference to the troll's notorious intolerance for sunlight, and a prayer for dawn. In any case, he withered the troll-guard of Gothmog, who was also present but evidently unable to take Húrin by himself.

[Kuruharan]

then how does Hurin's suicide fit into all this?

Strictly speaking we don't know that Hurin committed suicide. It's presented as a rumor. The rumor is sparked because we don't know what happened to him.

Beren's quest had nothing to do with Feanor other than the jewels. Beren went after a Silmaril to give to Thingol in exchange for permission to marry Luthien.

I think that if the request besmirched Thingol, it probably tainted Beren too.

Hurin's actions contributed to the downfall of Gondolin. It says in the Sil. he did not trust Morgoth's release of him...Hurin should have stayed away from Gondolin, knowing Morgoth had an ulterior motive for releasing him.


Probably. However, by that logic Beren contributed to the fall of Doriath by bringing in the Silmaril which ultimately caused the downfall. All Hurin did was show Morgoth the very general location of Gondolin.

Beren did not pursue the Silmarils for their own sake. His intentions even in retaining it after the Battle of Sarn Asthad were noble.

As stated above, I'm not sure that's true. He was pursuing them to gain something for himself. However, he was not ensnared by the Doom of Mandos since that was for the Elves.

Aragorn dealt with challenges, moral, political, military, and personal that were not like Hurin's

Aye, indeed. And anyone in their right mind, if presented with a choice in the matter, would choose Aragorn's challenges over Hurin's.

I don't think that you are giving Morgoth the credit that he deserves. In the Third Age nothing was more dangerous than being brought alive before Sauron (something that Aragorn did not experience). How much more so for his master in the First. The terrifying presence of Morgoth was the worst experience that one could experience in the world. Hurin experienced it. Hurin endured.

I would submit that Elendil and others of the early Dunedain could be every bit the equal of their forefathers.


You'll likely be arguing with the Sub-creator if you do so, but feel free.

Even though Morgoth was far greater than Sauron, Hurin never put fear in Morgoth.


So wouldn't that make perfect sense. Smaller, weaker spirit afraid that a loose enemy leader may disrupt his war plans compared to Original Evil toying with helpless prisoner who can't do a thing unless allowed. I don’t think the two situations are comparable.

[Eru]

i think turin was the greatest. yeah, sure, Hurin defied Morgoth for, say, a few hours, when Morgoth bound him to that chair. how could Hurin have known he was dooming his line? how could he expect anything less then Death for defieying Morgoth to his face? after Morgoh bound him to the chair, he was powerless even to defie Morgoth. Morgoth overcame his spirit, even if through a spell.

-Lenwa Fea

[Legolas]

Hurin's experience with Morgoth was more than a 'few hours.'

More than 200,000 hours, really.

[Cúdae]

So everyone here has argued about Aragorn, Bereb, Húrin, and Túrin. But what about the others? Aldarion, for example. So alright, he wasn't exactly "great," but he wasn't a complete waste of time. And how about... Arathorn, Aragorn's father? I don't know too much about him, but he has come across as the kind of guy that anyone would feel safe around.

Also, someone touched lightly on Luthien's choice to become mortal which could nominate her for greatest woman (which would fall in here, I believe since I get the impression you are including the whole race of Men in this discussion). But what about Haleth? She was not a chicken. Maybe she is not the greatest of the race of Men, but she deserves a place among them for the courage she showed.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Cúdae ]

[Eru]

More than 200,000 hours, really.

[Eru]

More than 200,000 hours, really.

i understand he was with morgoth for 28 years, but as I said, morgoth origanally didn't curse Hurin's line until he defied him. Nor did the Enemy tell him he wouldn't be able to move or die for 28 years.

but on reflection i realize that Morgoth was cruel and cunning. Hurin would have realized this, i think.

o well, have to run to class.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I think that if the request besmirched Thingol, it probably tainted Beren too.

I don’t think it was the request that besmirched Thingol. He named the Silmaril as his price for Luthien with the thought that the quest was impossible.

And those that heard these words perceived that Thingol would save his oath, and yet send Beren to his death;

And if there were hope or fear that Beren should come ever back alive to Menegroth, he should not have looked again upon the light of heaven, though I had sworn it.

I think the fate of Doriath was sealed after Beren actually returned with the Silmaril.

Beren’s motovation had nothing to do with possessing a Silmaril. I think that is why he did not fall under the doom of Mandos, not because he wasn’t an elf.

[obloquy]

I can't believe people are actually arguing that Beren was the greatest Man. He was a pansy. The task of retrieving a silmaril was every bit as impossible for Beren as Thingol believed. Still, blinded by his love (which I am not minimizing), Beren agreed to do it. Fortunately, Lúthien was willing to bail him out when he got in too deep. Had Húrin the same secret weapon that Beren did, he could have retrieved a silmaril just as easily.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Believe it or not, some people have a different opinion. The quest for the Silmaril was not the only evidence put forward for Beren. I'd hardly say he was a pansy.

Sure, Hurin was the bomb: he chopped trolls like a mad man, he spit in Morgoth's eye, he sat chained in a chair for 28 years, he was the greatest mortal warrior ever. In the end Morgoth still got what he wanted from Hurin. And he died in despair, possibly by suicide. As long as you are tossing "ifs" out there...if Beren had sat in Hurin's chair he would have defied Morgoth for twice as long. When Morgoth unchained him Beren would have said "Put the football game on and bring me a beer."

Hurin was captured in a failed battle of the long failed war in which the Noldor never even got close enough to see the jewels they were fighting for. Beren and one elf maiden accomplished what the Hurin and the Noldor were trying to do when Hurin was captured.

Obviously no one is saying Hurin was a wimp. In all reality, I waver some. Defying Morgoth to his face is arguably the single bravest act in the whole Silmarillion.

[Kuruharan]

if Beren had sat in Hurin's chair he would have defied Morgoth for twice as long.

This is just a quick note because I must be brief.

Beren was in a state of despair after the death of Finrod when he was a prisoner of Sauron. He hadn't even been tortured yet! Bother the fact of being in Morgoth's presence.

Defying Morgoth to his face is arguably the single bravest act in the whole Silmarillion.


Indeed! Performed by the Greatest Man that ever lived!

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Beren was in a state of despair after the death of Finrod when he was a prisoner of Sauron.

You think Hurin wasn't in despair when facing Morgoth? In those instances they both despaired and resisted.

[Pallando B.C]

Keneldil the Polka-dot made some good points about Beren, and also Tolkien compared himself to Beren ( on his grave stone as we all know ). But Hurin gets my vote also. His deeds are just to great to overlook.

[the witch king]

its gotta be ar-pharazon to date he's the only man 2 stand up nd say im not gona take the curse of men liein down! + he scared the crap out ov sauron he gets my vote any way

[Lush]

Strictly speaking we don't know that Hurin committed suicide. It's presented as a rumor. The rumor is sparked because we don't know what happened to him.


Duuude, whatever. This is fiction, right? Tolkien, the writer of said fiction, implied that Hurin committed suicide, but left the readers hanging, to preserve the authentic "feel" of the re-telling of a myth. At the same time, we can sense that Hurin's anger and despair got the best of him in the end, and considering that his kids had done themselves in...Basically, I think Hurin was very cool, but I think Morgoth got what he wanted from him in the end, and I just somehow don't feel that Tolkien wanted us to believe that Hurin was the greatest. I rather felt sorry for Hurin by the time his tale was done, trolls or no trolls.

[Sharkû]

"His dark tresses, drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face he flung backward,
in the eye he looked of the evil Lord --
since that day of dread to dare his glance
has no mortal Man had might of soul.
There the mind of Húrin in a mist of dark
neath gaze unfathomed groped and foundered,
yet his heart yielded not nor his haughty pride." (HoME III, 1.2.I; stresse mine)

Maybe outdated and rebuked (unlikely); maybe just a poetic hyperbole; maybe the differentiation 'since that day' explicitly and intentionally excludes Beren. Whatever, it clearly shows the greatness of spirit of Húrin, undoubtedly the most important factor when it comes to overall greatness in Tolkien's Legendarium.

[Lush]

Oh, Sharkey, how deft of you to sneak up with a HoMe quotation, when you know that kids like myself are all too busy wigging out over term-papers to rummage through the more obscure stuff. smilies/wink.gif
Definitely, if you divorce that particular image of Hurin from what supposedly happened to him later, his greatness is kinda hard to deny.
Perhaps, what Tolkien meant was that as Hurin faced Morgoth, his soul reached the highest level of might known to man. What happened afterwards could very well be of no consequence. If that's enough to call him the greatest, and it very well could be, then I don't think I could argue with that.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yeah, but it takes guts to defy morgoth. Hurin could look him in they eye and not be afraid, something that Manwe could barely do. And remember the slaying of SEVENTY Trolls, some of them might have even been maiar, since some maiar shifted into Troll and Orc chieftans and I bet that Gothmog had the greatest trolls too. He also slew hundreds of Orcs. Battle-wise, the only people that could take Hurin would probably be Fingolfin and Feanor, and maybe Maedhros, and the only men that could take on Hurin would be Turin, Beren, Tuor and Huor whilst in terms of valour he is the greatest man by far.

[Mattius]

its gotta be ar-pharazon to date he's the only man 2 stand up nd say im not gona take the curse of men liein down! + he scared the crap out ov sauron he gets my vote any way

Hee hee, good point but in my opinion it doesn't make him 'great' or the 'greatest'. In my opinion it simply has to be Hurin. I have read arguments for Aragorn on this thread and thats just got to be bullplop. Who would you have rather had in either of the situations they both faced. Would Aragorn have stood up to Morgoth for 28 years? Would Hurin have sneaked around the land of the north most of his life even though he was the rightful King? Of course not, years before he would have reclaimed his Kingship and built up an army strong enough to stop Sauron getting anywhere near as strong as he did. And Beren? Hmm, difficult, he certainly didn't have as much physical prowess as Hurin but he did steal the Silmaril but, in my mind, that was mostly the work of his 'ladyfriend' (she proabaly bragged about it for ages afterwards and never let it drop).

So there you go Hurin is the best nah nah, nah nah nah!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Ar Pharazon? What? He wasn’t the first man to stand up against the mutuality of men, many men had done it before him. And what the is the ‘curse’ of men? Do you mean the ‘fate’, ‘gift’ or ‘doom’ of men that they will one day die? This is not a curse. In the end, even the Elves and the Valar would envy the doom of men and freedom toe escape the world, and it is only the insolence of the first generation men, who worshiped Melkor that it is referred to in a negative manner. never remember reading a post on Ar-Pharazon ‘scaring’ Sauron, it was really Sauron being clever and manipulative. He knew his armies would get a *** -kicking form the Numenoreans, and he knew that the only way in which he could destroy Numenor was to ‘destroy’ it from the inside, which he did.

[the witch king]

Thats right hi was 'scared' to face the numenorians in a pitched battle i was talking about the fate of men as a curse just as ar-pharazon did! realy well please tell me who stood up against this curse like ar-pharazon? he whent to take the valar on for gods sake! thats gutsy man

[Mattius]

Gutsy yes, but I don't think he could have done what Hurin, Turin, Beren or Aragorn did. He was weak, thats why Sauron defeated him.

[the witch king]

weak? he was the the greatist king of numenor!

[*Varda*]

I'm a litle torn on this one....

At first I thought Hurin. Yeh! He defied Morgoth for 28 years, that takes guts! But....if you think about it...he didn't really have much choice.

He defied Morgoth properly at the beginning. But after that he had no choice but to live on, anyone else in his position would have been the same. And if, as Lush says, he did commit suicide, my vote for him kind of drops.

I wouldn't say Beren, because Luthien just did too much of the work for him.

Aragorn....he was great, but just didn't quite compare to his ancestors. It took courage to look into the Palantir, walk the Paths of the Dead etc. but it's nothing the people before him wouldn't have done.

Turin....possibly. He did manage to do some great things in his life, despite not having the best of circumstances.

smilies/rolleyes.gif Tolkien had to make this difficult didn't he? No definite quote like there is for the Eldar!

[Mattius]

Yeh Turin was great for putting up with so much crap in his life but the whole episode with his sister makes me shiver so he loses my vote. I pulled a picture of Hurin off the net, there is a better one of his sitting in front of Morgoth by Ted Nasmith but this one is good too and shows how brave he is. Observe!

http://digilander.libero.it/mgmfaenza/Download/foto_grandi/hurin.jpg

[the phantom]

I've also heard other people say that Turin lost points because of the incident with his sister, but I really don't think that's valid.

What does it have to do with anything?

He didn't know it was her, she didn't know it was him, they got along well and clicked, and then they got married. Okay, so where was the mistake or shortcoming here?

If you had a long lost sibling that you didn't know about, and then found out your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband was that sibling, would that make you any less of a person, or discount your accomplishments? Of course not, it wouldn't have anything to do with that stuff.

So please, don't discount Turin for "Greatest Man" because of that.

[Mattius]

Its still freaky and his father was still better.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Mattius, Hurin had blonde/golden hair. I presume that is him slaying the Orcs, not the trolls? He also had two axes. Unless that is Turin, but didn't you say it was Hurin?

[Mattius]

I thought he had blonde hair but it was on some guys site saying hurin and the battle of unumbered tears

guess it must be turin then smilies/biggrin.gif

[Mattius]

Woo Hoo, I finally got one. Now this is a definite picture of Hurin...

http://lacompania.iefactory.com/ilustraciones/morg_hurin.jpg

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

We must remember that Turin was saved from death by his doom. The curse kept him alive, or so I think.

Hurin didn't have a choice in sitting on that chair that's true. But he NEVER crumbled. He endured. Could anyone else have lasted that long? That's what makes Hurin so very, very special.

The interesting point raised in the case for Beren is that possibly any old guy-next-door could have claimed a Silmaril if he had Luthien for a partner. And like Turin, Beren's doom kept him going.

This aspect of doom concerns me, so like many others on this (excellent) thread, I will choose Hurin the Elf-friend, son of Galdor, as the Greatest Man of Middle Earth.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Sorry if i sound like a tosser, but the web-site you got the information from isn't very accurate, as far as that picture is concerned. Eevn if it is Turin, I can't seem to recognise which battle he is at.The North Marches of Doriath, I imagine were not a wasteground, nor was Nargothond or Brethil.It resmebles Anfauglith. (Sp?) I never have read about Turin wielding a axe, only a bow and Eol's sword Gurthang. (Was it called anglachel befor he renamed it?)

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

possibly any old guy-next-door could have claimed a Silmaril if he had Luthien for a partner.

Perhaps, but would Luthien have chosen any old guy-next-door for her husband? The fact that Luthien chose Beren is a point in his favor. Also, stealing the Silmaril is only one of the things on Beren's list of accomplishments.

[Helkasir]

Well,I'm not gonna get caught up in the storm, just going to add my two cents..

For all of this, we must first define "Greatest." There's loads of ways in which a person can be great. I Can't say who's better, but I'll vouch for Beren.

I heard someone say that Beren's claim to fame being "Coming back from the halls of mandos," and the someone else said, "That was all Luthien." But we miss something here. I'd vouch for Beren on this point, because I am a staunch believer in that the pen is mightier than the sword. If Beren could move the most beautiful women in the world to such tears that even Mandos, all powerful as he is, can't resist, Beren must be a truly great man. Is a man's greatness to be measured by how much blood he spills, or by his actions; for he must have truly been in love Luthien to do as he did. This isn't also to mention that he was a great (GREAT) poet, which was what moved Luthien to him in the first place.

He did not fear death, but only captivity, and being bold and desperate he escaped both death and bonds; and the deeds pf lonely daring that he achieved were noised and abroad throughout Beleriand and the tale of them even came into doriath. Even at young age, he was gainging fame, roaming around, etc. But there's even better stuff

At length Morgoth set a price upon his head no less than the price upon the Head of Fingon, High King of the Noldor; but the Orcs fled rather at the rumor of his aproach than sought him out. Morgoth must really have disliked Beren, because Beren was getting the same treatment as someone as lordly as Fingon.

He was also the only guy to scale Gorgoroth, and go through Dungortheb, facing the like of Ungoliant, evading Sauron, and then he made it through the girdle of Melian; I doubt many people who want to do that CAN.

Also not that he fought Celegorm and brought hi, a son of Feanor, down from horse. Even when the guy leaps, he gets a tale or two, cause it's mentioned as being important in the tale of Beren and Luthien. And do we really need mention that he get the only silmaril from Morgoth's crown? This guys got alot ffirsts in his Resume.

[Kuruharan]

I'd vouch for Beren on this point, because I am a staunch believer in that the pen is mightier than the sword. If Beren could move the most beautiful women in the world to such tears that even Mandos, all powerful as he is, can't resist, Beren must be a truly great man.

What?! That does not say a thing about the power of Beren's soul. It says more about Luthien's, not his.

Is a man's greatness to be measured by how much blood he spills, or by his actions; for he must have truly been in love Luthien to do as he did.

Hurin's greatness is not based on the amount of blood he shed. I don't think that anyone is really saying that it was. His greatness is based on his action of resisting Morgoth's person for a couple of decades.

How smitten Beren was by Luthien (and no doubt he had it bad) doesn't really have anything to do with it.

This isn't also to mention that he was a great (GREAT) poet, which was what moved Luthien to him in the first place.


So was Daeron but he was never in the running for being the Greatest Elf in Middle earth.

He was also the only guy to scale Gorgoroth, and go through Dungortheb, facing the like of Ungoliant, evading Sauron, and then he made it through the girdle of Melian; I doubt many people who want to do that CAN.


Yes, it's an impressive resume. However, Hurin was the helpless prisoner of the Great Primeval Evil. (The cause of all the suffering in the world, remember.) Hurin had no hope, and still refused to submit.

No other human, ever, went through anything so terrible.

(Why is it I seem to have a galling inability to drive home this point?)

[the phantom]

Hey Kuruharan! You can't drive the point home because not enough people out there are really taking the time to study the situation and then put themselves in Hurin's shoes to see what it would be like.

I spent about half and hour trying to imagine exactly what it would be like. Remember, those save the mightiest, who so much as looked into the eyes of Morgoth "fell into a pit of despair". He was a huge dark lord, eminating hatred, and crushing all hope with his mere presence. Hurin was actually unable to move for the majority of his captivity. Imagine that!! Being completely paralyzed, sitting in a stone chair, watching constant images of suffering and despair, unable to avert your eyes, and being faced with a presence powerful beyond your understanding that desired to turn your mind to darkness.

Please, read some sections about Morgoth's power, then read of his dealings with Hurin, and then take some time to imagine it, putting yourself in Hurin's shoes. If you do this you will realize the magnitude of Hurin's feat.

I understand your frustation Kuruharan.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Gosh, this is one with legs. I've made my points long ago, but lets face there are some out there who are "steadfastly" for Hurin. I don't see one great act of Troll-chopping and gumption to defy Morgoth (even if later deceived) as surpassing much deeper characters such as Beren, Elendil and Elessar, but oh well.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Hurin had no hope, and still refused to submit.

Morgoth put Hurin in the chair because he knew Hurin had knowledge of Gondolin. He let Hurin go and Hurin gave it to him. Granted, unintentionally. Morgoth let Hurin go so he would do exactly what he did.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Hmmm….Man-of-the-Wold, the two, the two things you mentioned show just why exactly Hurin was the greatest man ever, both in body and mind.

“ One great act of troll chopping?” What? Do you realise how difficult it is to kill a single troll never mind 70, who might have been even be stronger then in the Third age, when most powerful warriors could barely kill 1. No Elf, Man or Dwarf could slay 70 Trolls bar Hurin, or possibly Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon or Maedhros when they just came into M-E. It would take a lot of stamina to kill 70 trolls, especially if it is one battle, not to mention the Orcs clambering onto him, and he slew hundreds of them.

“ Gumption to defy Morgoth” Defying Morgoth is no easy task. Beren’s most impressive deeds, in my opinion were his deeds on Dorthonion and his slaying of the giant spider/s, yet he was being guided by Eru and fate was in favour, or in other words he was a lucky bugger. Elendil and Aragorn are two of my favourite characters buyt they did nothing to rival Hurin. Elendil helped slay Sauron, but he had quite a bit of help and the Last Alliance has pretty much won the war anyway and Aragorn may have looked in the Palantir, a courageous act, but he wasn’t face to face with Sauron and Sauron is incomparable to Morgoth. Hurin had to endure years of torture, whilst watching his family fall apart. Beren stayed in Sauron’s dungeons for a few weeks or months and hadn’t even been tortured and he was pretty screwed up. You say that Beren wrote poetry, but what evidence is there that Hurin didn’t. He made a song of lament for his daughter Lalaith. Of course you are perfectly entitled to say that Beren is the greatest, and you have a strong case, but arguing is what makes forum’s so fun.

[mikenugent]

I would have to say Elendil, he cut the ring, what more can I say?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Isildur cut the ring, NOT Elendil. Elendil helped slay Sauron.

[mikenugent]

Sorry bout that, I've been on minimum sleep and all the names banded together
Now I would have to say Aragorn, he:
-Bought the "world of men" back from the
brink of destruction
-Saved the Ring- bearer many times
-Resisted taking the ring from Frodo
-Re- united men all over the world
Thats all I can say right now.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

How smitten Beren was by Luthien (and no doubt he had it bad) doesn't really have anything to do with it.

No, but how smitten Luthien was by Beren has a lot to do with it.

Seems like the arguments for Hurin boil down to his stint in the chair facing Morgoth....resisting Morgoth's will. Hurin did resist for 28 years, but in the end his resistance went for naught when he gave Morgoth exactly what he wanted. Doesn't change the fact that resisting for so long is amazing, but does detract from Hurin's status re: Greatest Man of Middle Earth.

No other human, ever, went through anything so terrible.

(Why is it I seem to have a galling inability to drive home this point?)

Your point is well made, and easily understood. I concede Hurin's 28 year defiance may very well be the bravest single mortal deed. However, don't JRRT's own words describe the retrieval of the Silmaril as the greatest deed ever? Regardless of single acts, Beren wins when looking at the whole picture.

[CSteefel]

Seems a bit difficult to say how one man or another would have fared under imprisonment by Morgoth--if they weren't in this situation, as Hurin was, it is speculation to say whether they would have cracked or not. All you can do is evaluate them based on what they themselves went through.

I am mystified, however, why people would suggest Turin as the greatest man. Greatest warrior, maybe, but a flawed character from the start. It wasn't just the little thing with his sister--he argued early on with Thingol and rejected his pleas to come back to Doriath. He was proud and willful, as was pointed out early on, and this led to the dark future that Thingol and Melian recognized him as having.

Hard to dispute the suggestions of Hurin and Beren, however. One has to factor in the nobility of spirit, and what they were willing to do in pursuit of their ideals or love, and in this respect I think both were bona fide great men.

I would put Elendil myself in front of Isildur, who was flawed (fatally, as it turns out) in not rejecting the Ring and destroying it. Elendil, in contrast, was the prime mover of the Faithful on Numenor, a position that put him at considerable risk. And he, with Gil-galad, was the prime mover of the Last Alliance against Sauron, and it would seem that he and Gil-Galad were primarily responsible for defeating Sauron at the cost of their own lives.

Finally Aragorn... I don't understand the belittling of him above. As Tolkien said, he was the greatest and hardiest traveller of his age, in addition to key roles in saving the day at Helm's Deep, and even more so, at the Pelennor Fields. Only a truly heroic figure could have gone through the Paths of the Dead--while it was prophesied that the rightful heir of Isildur could do it, as Tolkien said, it was only the will of Aragorn that held them to the path. And at a crucial time, he rejected the lure of the Ring (like Galadriel, and unlike Isildur).

[ingo]

Who else but Turin Turambar?

[Kuruharan]

Finally Aragorn... I don't understand the belittling of him above.

Not so much belittling as trying to put his accomplishments in perspective. Obviously, since some of us don't think he qualifies as the Greatest Man of Middle-earth, it is going to appear like we are being hard on him. That's not really what we are about, but we are trying to get a point across.

[Bêthberry]

I think some thinking 'outside of the box' is needed.

Would Aragorn ever have been recognised had it not been for one gossipy old soul who remembered the old lore? Would the fallen have been healed--Eowyn, Faramir, Merry? Would Arwen have then been able to marry her love?

Greatest Man? Ioreth. I can't believe you are all being soooo literal here. And so machismo. :p

[CSteefel]

Not so much belittling as trying to put his accomplishments in perspective. Obviously, since some of us don't think he qualifies as the Greatest Man of Middle-earth, it is going to appear like we are being hard on him. That's not really what we are about, but we are trying to get a point across.
Fair enough. I don't necessarily think he is the Greatest Man either, but some of the comments above sound like they are from somebody who has not read the books, or somebody who has some other agenda...

[Kuruharan]

or somebody who has some other agenda

I did. Stumping for Hurin. ;)

[Folwren]

I think some thinking 'outside of the box' is needed.

Would Aragorn ever have been recognised had it not been for one gossipy old soul who remembered the old lore? Would the fallen have been healed--Eowyn, Faramir, Merry? Would Arwen have then been able to marry her love?

Greatest Man? Ioreth. I can't believe you are all being soooo literal here. And so machismo. :p

Ha! Ha! That's funny....but I'd disagree. I think Eowyn was pretty cool myself, but not the 'greatest.'

This is an interesting topic, no doubt.

Finally Aragorn... I don't understand the belittling of him above. As Tolkien said, he was the greatest and hardiest traveller of his age, in addition to key roles in saving the day at Helm's Deep, and even more so, at the Pelennor Fields. Only a truly heroic figure could have gone through the Paths of the Dead--while it was prophesied that the rightful heir of Isildur could do it, as Tolkien said, it was only the will of Aragorn that held them to the path. And at a crucial time, he rejected the lure of the Ring (like Galadriel, and unlike Isildur).

What you say is true. I really like Aragorn, personally, but we have to consider that he was in a full lengthed, deeply detailed book, whereas the others here mentioned only got chapters or pages in other books.

I would not choose Turin. He had problems, and I wouldn't even consider the 'little thing' with his sister (as people have labeled it here) as one of those problems. It's not like they knew they were related.

I'll be a Beren supporter. I always liked that story, and I liked his character. I don't believe he had any misplaced pride, like so many others...

Of course, another great character is Faramir...but not quite as great as Beren.

There you go, folks. Enjoy it.

-- Folwren