Do Hobbits get Lung Cancer?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Okay,I was talking with my friend (who also has an account on the Downs) About Hobbits and how they smoke. She said that they must get lung cancer or something from smoking so much, but I don't know because it is writtenHobbits live to be One Hundred as often as not.So we were confused and would like some answers!

[Nazgûl-king]

I never thought of that, neither the books nor the films ever mention anyone getting lung cancer, maybe the Hobbits are immune to it;).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You know the so-called "Churchill syndrome"? People with that can smoke like a factory and nothing happens to them. Maybe the whole Hobbit race had this.

Or, maybe Old Toby cultivated some sort of pipeweed that was not harmful in any way.

(Gandalf and Saruman also were smoking quite a lot and we never see a scene like "Théoden, my friend, let us forget old *cough cough* sorry, Théoden, join me *cough cough cough* oh no, the Voice ain't working today. Worm, throw the Palantír on them at once!"
Though, Gandalf and Saruman were Istari - they could have had some resistance. But what about the Rangers? Well, they were Dúnedain, so maybe... The Dwarves? No problem, Dwarves are tough. Okay, so the only people who could have had problems would be the Breelanders. Like Bill Ferny. At least he was spitting all over the place. If it was due to the pipeweed, we don't know. But if yes, then that implies that sometimes smoking was not as pleasant. But that does not necessarily prove anything. Maybe his pipe was just a bad one.)

[Aganzir]

At least American Indians, who had been harvesting tobacco for a long time before the Europeans came, suffered less from the side-effects of tobacco than the Europeans. I don't know about Hobbits though- if I remember correctly, smoking pipeweed was a relatively new practice among them, so the immunity should have developed in a very short time.

But hobbits are quite tough. If even the Ring didn't affect them as strongly as it would have some other race, maybe smoking pipeweed caused no problem either.

[Mithalwen]

Hard as it may be to believe now but there was a time when cigarettes were sold almost as health products

http://indymotorspeedway.com/cigs/1930s.html


Tolkien was a great smoker and this was not regarded as anthing unusual. At the time the books were written the tobacco use would not have been remarkable. However to put a modern perspective on it Hobbits are "tough in the fibre" and like Numenoreans they don't seem prone to illness generally - premature deaths tend to be accidental.

But remember children, Elves don't smoke and they live forever and don't get wrinkles..... a lesson for us all? ;)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In the 1940s the link between smoking and lung cancer was little understood, and even what the medical research community may have suspected wasn't widely known outside. Tolkien's own doctor and fellow-Inkling 'Humphrey' Havard was himself a heavy smoker.

Remember also that Hobbits (and Tolkien) smoked pipes, which ordinarily do not involve inhaling and in fact pipe-smoking is not generally linked to lung cancer....just cancer of the mouth and lips. In any event, Tolkien himself for all his tobacco use lived to a ripe old age and ultimately died of a stomach ulcer. Cigarette smoking creates a very elevated risk of lung cancer, but it is not by any means automatic or guaranteed that a smoker will develop it!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

like Numenoreans they don't seem prone to illness generally - premature deaths tend to be accidental.

I'm not so sure- after all, both Hobbits and Dunedain were badly affected by the Great Plague.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm not so sure- after all, both Hobbits and Dunedain were badly affected by the Great Plague.

She said generally. Great Plague is Great Plague. Both the Hobbits and the Dúnedain were affected less than the other nations. After all, "Periannath survive, but suffer great loss." (Tale of the Years) And concerning the Dúnedain, I'll be careful. Most of the population of both Arnor and Gondor were "normal" Men, and in Gondor the Númenorean blood was far more weakened than in Arnor. In Arnor the Dúnedain were strongest in Arthedain, but Cardolan was the part which was affected the most. And no doubt there was some special aim, some will of Sauron that supported the death of the royal family in Gondor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

True; but also the plague is said to have decreased in virulence as it spread northward. This is in fact what happens in most RW epidemics, like the Black Death: the most deadly mutations of the disease agent tend to kill quickly, thereby depriving themselves of hosts.



________

It is also said that in the Shire in the annus mirabilis 1420 "no one was ill," which implies that in ordinary years some Hobbits were ill. Gaffer Gamgee suffered from arthritis. While the Shire is in many ways idyllic, it was no Lorien.

And Lotho does have pimples!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

True; but also the plague is said to have decreased in virulence as it spread northward. This is in fact what happens in most RW epidemics, like the Black Death: the most deadly mutations of the disease agent tend to kill quickly, thereby depriving themselves of hosts.

Definitely. But I believe both factors played their roles here. Hobbits are hobbits and Dúnedain are Dúnedain. That is, in my opinon, why neither of them were affected even though smoking (among other reasons named in this thread).

[Mithalwen]

I will cheerfully admit that I had forgotten about the great plague but I would point out that isolated healthy populations can be particularly vulnerable to a newv disease as has been shown in our own world when local populations have been destroyed by diseases unwittingly imported by colonists and conquerors, to whom the same disease was far less lethal because they had established some immunity

I do wonder that given their healthy appetites and supply of vittles the no one was ill refers more to the relatively minor indispositions that accompany over indulgence rather than serious illness. I would have to check this out but my memory (which we have already established is imperfect) ;) cannot recall any specific hobbit being ill other than Frodo and nor any mention of any hobbit skilled in healing. Though didn't Bilbo give the gaffer some liniment for his arthritis - which was surely given his age and occupation osteo arthritis causes by "wear and tear". I would point out that by saying "not prone to illness generally " I didn't mean that I thought Hobbits had an elvish imperviousness to illness and age. There is a difference.

I doubt that the modern lifestyle police would approve of the hobbits calorie intake and attitude that it was unhealthy to be lean either .... nor of the consumption of more than a few glasses of old winyards a week for the sake of one's heart...

As for Tolkien himself - smoking can exacerbate stomach ulcers and he did (according to Carpenter) hope to match his longlived Suffield (?) relatives.

So pipe smoking is not a good idea either (so saith Auntie Mith). Oral cancer is not fun and pipe smokers also shorten their life expectancy by being irritating and tapping the wretched things out. I am sure strangulation is a major cause of death amongst them... :p

[Bêthberry]

Given that we are talking about the Third Age, would it be likely that Hobbits would recognize a respiratory illness as in fact "cancer"? Wouldn't they be more likely to have a very different vocabulary for diseases and discomforts?

Cancer became the word for the medical pathology circa 1600--interestingly, because wasn't tobacco introduced to Europe around that time, after the new world invasions? Before that, the word tended to denote the astrological sign and the word "canker" was used for bodily complaints.

I'm sure there's a great deal in medieval medical vocabulary that would be great fun to apply to Middle-earth, in particular relating to spitting, spewing, coughing, hacking, pustules, open sores, running sores, fevers and agues, to say nothing of the theory of humours.

Hmmmm. Hmmm. Do I hear the sounds of an RPG strumming in the back ground here? Yes, a story of why the elves tended not to pay much attention to the hobbits. Perhaps the elves could not stand the experience of watching bodily decline and disability? I wonder if they would be grossed out by the effects of the gift? Certainly death was a great shock to Arwen.

Either that or REB IV, the Last Homely Old Folks Home.

:smokin:

[Lindale]

I do believe that the lifestyle and the lack of pollution in the Shire has caused much to the advantage of the Hobbits' resilience when it comes to the ring and physical diseases.

If I may add so, I think that the simple and at some point "rustic" composition of the Shire has also shaped their morals, generally--Frodo and Sam and Bilbo, and also at some point Lobelia. ;)

[Selmo]

Do we know how much Hobbits and Men smoked?

In LoTR and The Hobbit, our heros were travelling light for most of the time. They could not have carried large quantities of pipe-weed and so would have smoked very little to make their supplies last as long as posible. Is there any evidence that they smoked more heavily at home?

A pipe of tobacco on the bench outside the front door after breakfast and perhaps one more with a jug of ale in the evening would do much less damage than smoking forty cigarettes a day.
.

[Gwathagor]

Hobbits ARE very tough in the fiber.

[Lindale]

Do we know how much Hobbits and Men smoked?

In LoTR and The Hobbit, our heros were travelling light for most of the time. They could not have carried large quantities of pipe-weed and so would have smoked very little to make their supplies last as long as posible. Is there any evidence that they smoked more heavily at home?

A pipe of tobacco on the bench outside the front door after breakfast and perhaps one more with a jug of ale in the evening would do much less damage than smoking forty cigarettes a day.
.

Well, Hobbits rarely travel, Frodo & Co. excluded, so generally I think you have a point there Selmo. Being at home, I believe, has much more "temptations" (sorry for lack of better word) to smoke and drink. I kinda remember Pippin and Merry so joyous upon finding the Toby leaves in Isengard. :p

I'm still Googling for any significant difference with respect to lung cancer if one uses cigies or tobaccos. Not that I've found anything yet.

Hey, just a thought. Liver cancer from beer or whatnot. Although... maybe just the same as lung cancer?

[Eönwë]

THey wouldn't get lung cancer. I don't thing Old Toby was like Tabacco. Also sometimes they smokes athelas (or Kingsfoil) which was a healing herb. And Gandalf does cough a bit from smoking in Minas Tirith in the extended edition of the return of the king. Also Gandalf smokes and Saruman copies him, so it must be a good sign, no?

*smirks to self as I notice that in the fellowship of the ring movie, saruman goes "Your love of the Halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"*

________________________________

"Old Toby, the finest weed in the South Farthing" Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!

[Bêthberry]

Do we know how much Hobbits and Men smoked?

In LoTR and The Hobbit, our heros were travelling light for most of the time. They could not have carried large quantities of pipe-weed and so would have smoked very little to make their supplies last as long as posible. Is there any evidence that they smoked more heavily at home?

A pipe of tobacco on the bench outside the front door after breakfast and perhaps one more with a jug of ale in the evening would do much less damage than smoking forty cigarettes a day.
.

An interesting perspective. Tobacco amongst the First Nations peoples in North American was 'controlled' by highly developed and formalised social and ritual uses.

Perhaps the hobbits just didn't pop out for a quick ciggie during coffee break. If hobbits were least likely to fall under the domination of the Ring, perhaps this can be extended to all addictive substances, alcohol and pipeweed alike. And in not succumbing to the addictive effects of nicotine (which is a very highly addictive drug), they just didn't have the need to smoke 24/7.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Eonwe, pipeweed was specifically a plant of the genus Nicotiana: tobacco.

Bethberry: that isn't necessarily true. The Cherokee for example smoked small personal pipes regularly, quite apart from the ceremonial 'great pipes.'

[Eönwë]

Eonwe, pipeweed was specifically a plant of the genus Nicotiana: tobacco.

What I mean is that when they DID smoke things like Kingsfoil (athelas) then maybe it countered the effects. After all, Aragorn does say in the book that it has many uses, and it IS powerful enough to heal you from trying to attack (and killing) the witch-king.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The hobbits had no idea that athelas was any more than a weed.

[Alfirin]

THey wouldn't get lung cancer. I don't thing Old Toby was like Tabacco. Also sometimes they smokes athelas (or Kingsfoil) which was a healing herb. And Gandalf does cough a bit from smoking in Minas Tirith in the extended edition of the return of the king. Also Gandalf smokes and Saruman copies him, so it must be a good sign, no?

*smirks to self as I notice that in the fellowship of the ring movie, saruman goes "Your love of the Halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"*

________________________________

"Old Toby, the finest weed in the South Farthing" Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!

There's actually a bit of subtext in that line. Somewhere (I think it is in the Unfinished tales,) there is mention of the fact that during one of the Councils in which both Gandalf and Saruman played a part, Gandalf took out his pipe and smoked. Saruman was irritated by this, and criticized Gandalf for playing with "toys of fire and smoke" at such a weighty affair. I think that this is why Saruman insults the pipeweed and also why he conceals the fact that he himself smokes (As I recall even when he is treating Gandalf cordially he never smokes in Gandalf's presence or offers him pipeweed, as Frodo does automatically.) To do otherwise would be to admit Gandalf was right and he was wrong and Saruman's pride would never allow that!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

You know, in the EE of FotR Merry and Pippin sounded quite drunk singing there bar song and also later as well in the movies. But I'd say that they probably wouldn't after all you peoples have said, because well lets take Bilbo for example he lived to be 131 in Middle-earth (not counting the years he probably lived in Valinor) and he smoked for a long time, there didn't seem like a very big effect on him, but of course the ring might have done something too!

[Gwathagor]

Like I said, hobbits are just oo tough in the fiber.

[Mithol]

Many smokers do live to a ripe old age even these days. And if you take into consideration the fact that they probably smoked much less than your average modern-day smoker and that they smoked pipes, it isn't hard to believe that they could live so long. Anyway, Hobbits are not humans. They are a different race. Therefore their life expectancy is probs not based on their amazing healthy habits but instead on the amount of time it takes for their species' body to grow old and fail.

[Elmo]

Many smokers do live to a ripe old age even these days. And if you take into consideration the fact that they probably smoked much less than your average modern-day smoker and that they smoked pipes, it isn't hard to believe that they could live so long. Anyway, Hobbits are not humans. They are a different race. Therefore their life expectancy is probs not based on their amazing healthy habits but instead on the amount of time it takes for their species' body to grow old and fail. No they are humans, just small ones with hairy feet!

[Witch-king of Angmar]

As an avid pipe smoker I should say that hobbits don't have too much to fear from dying of lung cancer. Consider that pipe smoke is usually not inhaled but kept in the mouth before being blown out, which makes the the threat of getting lung cancer considerably less than should our furry-footed little friends be smoking cigarettes.

[Laurinquë]

As an avid pipe smoker I should say that hobbits don't have too much to fear from dying of lung cancer. Consider that pipe smoke is usually not inhaled but kept in the mouth before being blown out, which makes the the threat of getting lung cancer considerably less than should our furry-footed little friends be smoking cigarettes.

Well I for one am very glad that those Hobbits wern't smoking cigarettes, we might have never gotten to see them in LOTR, they may have died earlier if what the Witch King of Angmar says is true.

[Eönwë]

The hobbits had no idea that athelas was any more than a weed.
That doesn't matter. Things can be good for you even if you dont know they are. Of cousre, there is the opposite, the placebo...
But I don't think athelas was one, especially since, Merry and Eowyn (for example, there were more cases), were in shock when the athelas was used on them

[obloquy]

Everybody knows that cancer only becomes deadly once you know you have it.

[zxcvbn]

I don't think end-of-life diseases like cancer existed in Middle Earth. The impression I got from reading the books was when mortals grew old, they usually just died of old age.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Well I for one am very glad that those Hobbits wern't smoking cigarettes, we might have never gotten to see them in LOTR, they may have died earlier if what the Witch King of Angmar says is true.Oh Robi, I don't think that you can kill off a species just by them having one little bad habit!

I don't think end-of-life diseases like cancer existed in Middle Earth. The impression I got from reading the books was when mortals grew old, they usually just died of old age.Hmmm... I think that's a good point, Tolkien probably didn't want to have unnecessary decieses in ME

Everybody knows that cancer only becomes deadly once you know you have it.What! No, you can have cancer and be sick and not know you have it and still die! I doesn't happen very much, but you can still die if your sick and not know what it is.

[Nerwen]

Ah... I rather think obloquy was making a joke.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Ah... I rather think obloquy was making a joke.
Well that makes me feel better, because when you have a parent in the medical field and you read her text books, then you might get somewhat uptight about those things.;)

[Nazgûl-king]

I wonder if perhaps the leaves the hobbits used for smoking have any medical properties, if so maybe that is why they did not get lung cancer as perhaps it was actually healthy for them to smoke. Though I kind of doubt it, but I thought I would put it out there.

[Mugwump]

The cancer risk from pipe smoking is much less than for cigarettes, perhaps because the smoke is generally not inhaled. In America, with a population of over 300 million, there are an estimated 1000 or so cancer deaths (all kinds, not just lung cancer) per year attributed to pipe smoking. That's about one death per 300,000 people in the population (a much smaller number smoked pipes, of course). Although it's not politically correct to say so, perhaps pipe smoking just isn't all that dangerous.

Besides which, we don't know much about hobbits' smoking habits. We don't know how often they smoked, whether or not they inhaled, or even whether their "pipe weed" was even tobacco! We also don't know whether hobbits had a greater resistance to diseases like cancer than humans have.

In fact, if we can accept the existence of Balrogs in Middle Earth, then why couldn't we accept the existence of pipe weed smoking that doesn't cause any kind of cancer? If Tolkien did not put lung cancer into his world, then why should we assume it exists there!

[Formendacil]

In fact, if we can accept the existence of Balrogs in Middle Earth, then why couldn't we accept the existence of pipe weed smoking that doesn't cause any kind of cancer? If Tolkien did not put lung cancer into his world, then why should we assume it exists there!

So the real question then, is: Do Balrogs cause cancer? It's not as far-fetched as all that really. Where there's smoke, there's fire--and there's a lot of fire in a Balrog. :p

[Bêthberry]

The cancer risk from pipe smoking is much less than for cigarettes, perhaps because the smoke is generally not inhaled. In America, with a population of over 300 million, there are an estimated 1000 or so cancer deaths (all kinds, not just lung cancer) per year. That's about one death per 300,000 people. Although it's not politically correct to say so, perhaps pipe smoking just isn't all that dangerous.

Where did you get that statistic of 1000 estimated deaths per year in the US, Mugwump?

The stats given by the American Cancer Society for 2008 read 565,650 deaths from all cancers. (http://www.cancer.org/downloads/STT/2008CAFFfinalsecured.pdf)

And the cancer risk for pipe smoking includes oral cancers, not just lung cancer.

Formendacil, I can see the start of a new controversy: would Balrog cigarettes have filters or not? ;) :D

[Mugwump]

Where did you get that statistic of 1000 estimated deaths per year in the US, Mugwump?

The stats given by the American Cancer Society for 2008 read 565,650 deaths from all cancers. (http://www.cancer.org/downloads/STT/2008CAFFfinalsecured.pdf)

And the cancer risk for pipe smoking includes oral cancers, not just lung cancer.


Sorry, I didn't finish the sentence correctly:

In America, with a population of over 300 million, there are an estimated 1000 or so cancer deaths (all kinds, not just lung cancer) per year among pipe smokers.

That statistic is from a 1996 study published in the journal Preventive Medicine, which estimated that the number of deaths in the United States attributable to pipe smoking in 1991 ranged from 650 to 2,820, the majority from lung cancer, but that number included all types of cancers the pipe smokers died from. The middle estimate was a little more than 1,000 deaths.

By the way, I once tried smoking a pipe. It make my throat so raw and painfull I never tried again.

[skip spence]

Tolkien, as an avid pipe-smoker, thought of the habit as a pleasurable pastime, not as a repulsive and immoral means of slowly killing yourself while making everyone in the close proximity suffer horribly too. Apparently and not coincidently Hobbits did likewise.

Did they die from lung cancer at times? Considering that their pipe-weed was indeed tobacco, or something very much like it, and that Hobbits biologically are just little people, well, some of them probably did. They wouldn't be aware that is was cancer they died from though, why they had contracted it, or indeed what cancer was in the first place, so they had no reason to worry.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Mind you, lung cancer was a great medical rarity until the widespread smoking of cigarettes arose ca. WWI.

a repulsive and immoral means of slowly killing yourself while making everyone in the close proximity suffer horribly too

Not opinionated, are we?

[Mithalwen]

Tolkien, as an avid pipe-smoker, thought of the habit as a pleasurable pastime, not as a repulsive and immoral means of slowly killing yourself while making everyone in the close proximity suffer horribly too. Apparently and not coincidently Hobbits did likewise.

.

Of course he wouldn't think like that - the evidence about the links to smoking and cancer were only starting to emerge in the fifties when the books were out and it wasn't until the late sixties that television advertising was banned in the UK. By which time he may have felt it too late to worry. When Tolkien was a young man tobacco was advertised as having health benefits!

Many many people did smoke in those days so it wasn't really antisocial. I seem to recall that one of the benefits of the Tolkien's house in Branksome was it's veranda where they would smoke companionably of an evening.

My mother gave up smoking around the time Tolkien died and although she happened to be pregnant at the time her reasons were financial rather than medical.

[skip spence]

Not opinionated, are we?
:smokin:
Well, on a side note, I've always been intrigued by how the smell of tobacco can be so terribly offensive to some people. I mean, heavy indoor smoking is one thing, but nowadays a mere whiff of tobacco smoke seem to be able to provoke the most astonishing reactions, as if that certain odour violates our most basic human rights, or as if deadly cysts would instantaneously start to popping up on people all around that horrible smoker.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

To the point that many places are banning smoking outdoors!

But I digress...

[obloquy]

:smokin:
Well, on a side note, I've always been intrigued by how the smell of tobacco can be so terribly offensive to some people. I mean, heavy indoor smoking is one thing, but nowadays a mere whiff of tobacco smoke seem to be able to provoke the most astonishing reactions, as if that certain odour violates our most basic human rights, or as if deadly cysts would instantaneously start to popping up on people all around that horrible smoker.

I do not think it is the odor that some find offensive, but the idea that others are freely and needlessly polluting the air that we all have to breathe.

There are laws against public nudity, but there is no actual danger to a person who sees even the ugliest naked body. It is thoroughly socially unacceptable to pass gas where others will be forced to inhale it, yet, again, doing so would cause no actual harm to anyone. Cursing where all around you are forced to hear it is very inconsiderate, and is even a misdemeanor in some places, if I am not mistaken.

I enjoy the smell of nearly all tobacco products, personally, and I tend to share your attitude about the danger of casually inhaling second-hand smoke. The fact, however, is that it is inconsiderate of others to pollute their bodies against their will, and is more offensive than those things I mentioned above because of the actual damage that is caused, negligible or otherwise. Most importantly, children must be considered. The dangers of second-hand smoke appear to be real, inasmuch as one can trust the studies that have been conducted. Surely you do not condone forcing even the risk of these negative effects on children.

[Andsigil]

When I first saw this thread, the first thing I imagined were hobbits like Lotho Sackville-Baggins forming a "Health and Safety" (or "Elfin-Safety" (http://www.elfin-safety.com/)) Commission to dictate to the other hobbits how they should behave.

That, of course, would lead to other forms of control, in other areas of behavior, over which the Lothos of the world would love to have jurisdiction. Kind of like now. And, like today, we'd see places like the Shire turn into nanny states.

[skip spence]

Surely you do not condone forcing even the risk of these negative effects on children.
"Think of the children!", exclaims the moralistic Helen Lovejoy.

I actually think the concept that all risks should be minimized at the cost of personal liberty is one of the most frightening ideas to come out of modern civilisation.

I'm quite sure Tolkien would've agreed with that too, as Andsigil implied.

Now as I said, heavy smoking in poorly ventilated indoor areas is one thing - the detrimental health-effects of tobacco smoke is well documented, whether is is inhaled first or second hand, and unwilling people shouldn't be forced to breath in excessive amounts of it, no. But it has gone way beyond that now, hasn't it? A few stray molecules of incensed tobacco isn't a reasonable danger to anyone's health, children or no.

[Bêthberry]

A few stray molecules of incensed tobacco isn't a reasonable danger to anyone's health, children or no.

I've heard that they will soon ban smoking under the Party Tree as the smoke is harmful to the tree.

[Mugwump]

Now as I said, heavy smoking in poorly ventilated indoor areas is one thing - the detrimental health-effects of tobacco smoke is well documented, whether is is inhaled first or second hand, and unwilling people shouldn't be forced to breath in excessive amounts of it, no. But it has gone way beyond that now, hasn't it?
Indeed. Smoking is banned in so-called "public resturants and bars" that are actually privately owned businesses frequented by people who go there voluntarily.

I hate cigarette smoke and I've always avoided restaurants and pubs where I could smell cigarette smoke. The new laws making smoking illegal in those places is a convenience for me, sure (at least until those places go out of business), but I support the right of privately owned businesses to choose to allow smoking or not.

I do support laws banning smoking in publicly owned buildings (like government offices), public transportation (e.g., city busses), and government-regulated interstate carriers (e.g., airplanes).

I think the chemical they put in cigarettes to keep them from going out when not being actively puffed is what causes the smell that makes me hate cigarette smoke so. I don't particularly mind pipe and cigar smoke, although I do not smoke pipes and cigars myself. :smokin:

[obloquy]

I actually think the concept that all risks should be minimized at the cost of personal liberty is one of the most frightening ideas to come out of modern civilisation.

I think a far more frightening concept is that which champions personal liberty at the expense of cooperation and compromise. The idea that the individual's will should be subject to no external limitations can lead only to the ultimate destruction of civilization, as it is anathema to that very definition. Unless you mean to be selective about the application of this sanctification of personal choice, you are not merely ridding yourself of criticism (which I surmise is the motive in the first place), you are granting impunity to the sociopaths and perverts who also walk among us with equal rights.

Now as I said, heavy smoking in poorly ventilated indoor areas is one thing - the detrimental health-effects of tobacco smoke is well documented, whether is is inhaled first or second hand, and unwilling people shouldn't be forced to breath in excessive amounts of it, no. But it has gone way beyond that now, hasn't it? A few stray molecules of incensed tobacco isn't a reasonable danger to anyone's health, children or no.

How, exactly, is this two different things? Why do you get to be the one to draw the line? Why do you decide what is an "excessive" amount, and what another should accept as perfectly harmless? For someone who has made the choice not to smoke, any amount can reasonably be called "excessive," and here we might make an appeal to your god, Personal Liberty. Maybe I believe that a little unwanted touching should be dismissed as harmless, so it is within my personal rights to pinch asses as long as I am not crossing some arbitrary line of excess that I have imagined. Attractive ladies should recognize that no actual harm was done, and they should certainly recognize that if they seek recourse through the mechanisms established by government, it is my personal liberty that they are attacking. I agree, it is certainly "frightening" that someone would be willing to sacrifice my rights on the altar of "comfort" and "propriety!"

You are simply favoring one person's personal liberty (yours) over that of another--over that of many others, in fact. Unless you believe that these laws preventing smoking were passed unilaterally.

[skip spence]

While this is a very interesting discussion I fear that I'll be cut short by our dear modess as the Tolkien tie-in is hard to maintain. But, very briefly, I've never claimed personal liberty should be absolute when it also concerns others. Just where to draw the line is, however, not so easy. It is not a black and white issue. As with drug laws, driving laws, gun laws etc etc we need to strike a balance between separate interests.
Why do you get to be the one to draw the line?
Unfortunately I don't. But I reserve the right to express my opinion that the line, in this instance and many similar ones, has been drawn, well, too tight. And no, I'm not a smoker.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I dunno, I rather feel that the original question of whether or not Hobbits get lung cancer is about the same as the question of whether or not the inhabitants of Middle-earth of all species ever feel the need to go to the bathroom (so to speak). Of course they do, but we never see it, because it's not really relevant to the story. One could take up the position of a friend's old Sunday school teacher, though: when she was a little kid, my friend drew a picture in Sunday school of Mary changing Baby Jesus' diapers (no anatomical correctness to quibble about, she was just a kid and had the drawing skills thereof :)) and was taken to task by the teacher, who found it not innocent but offensive. Apparently it was the teacher's belief that Jesus didn't do such base human things as piddle in his nappies, a trait which she also felt carried on into adulthood. I might have thought my friend was kidding if I hadn't heard this same line of thought from other people in my own church when I was a kid.

Some Hobbits probably did get lung cancer; it's the world marred by Melkor, after all, and disease is not unknown among the mortals. Hobbit toughness may be greater than our own, and they may have been less prone to cancers of all kinds, but in the end, the evil Melkor wrought in the world by infusing his power into it would affect them. Like humans of our own past centuries, the Hobbits may have thought it was "consumption" (which was really tuberculosis, if I recall correctly, but acted as a catch-all phrase for diseases of the lungs that slowly killed the victim). I shall have to take a look in the letters to see if Tolkien had any opinion about this. He might've.

[Alfirin]

could take up the position of a friend's old Sunday school teacher, though: when she was a little kid, my friend drew a picture in Sunday school of Mary changing Baby Jesus' diapers (no anatomical correctness to quibble about, she was just a kid and had the drawing skills thereof :)) and was taken to task by the teacher, who found it not innocent but offensive.

There's a similar story referred to in Michael Ende's The Neverending Story , I believe.

[raseellwillish]

That's something interesting to have a though on. It is like Fordo and Co. did not have much to do to when they were at home so they were said to be using tobacco now when they were up to some work they were totally involved. Hobbit's toughness would be greater than that of ours but that would not mean that even excessive smoking would do them no harm. Excessive of anything is harmful.

[musicofainur]

Talking in all seriousness, the additional substances they put in cigarettes are considered to be a factor that is believed to cause cancer. I would think that smoking pipe would cause less detrimental effects (which I concluded from my knowledge that pipe smokers do not put additional tar or nicotine into the leaves they are smoking).

On another note, The Lord of the Rings was published in the 1950's, while the belief that smoking cigarettes was harmful only became known in the 1960's.
The direct linkage of smoking and cancer has not been proven. They [scientists] had concluded such notion from trend they see on the graphs and the prevalence of lung cancer in smoking patients. It was not scientifically proven. If I were a writer who lived in the 1950's, I would not want a non-scientifically proven theory to be put into my novel.

[Oh, Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays to you all :smokin:]

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

So the smoke itself was not what causes cancer? I know that there are many other harmful chemicals that are put into cigarettes, but my initial concern was because of the smoke (being the silly 13 year old I was). If the smoke does not have ridiculous amounts of harm, then the damage to a hobbit's body would not be significant?

[Inziladun]

So the smoke itself was not what causes cancer? I know that there are many other harmful chemicals that are put into cigarettes, but my initial concern was because of the smoke (being the silly 13 year old I was). If the smoke does not have ridiculous amounts of harm, then the damage to a hobbit's body would not be significant?

I'm not a smoker, and never have been, but I was under the impression that the main hazard from smoking is thought to be the tar content of the smoke. At any rate, since the implication is that the herb Nicotiana is analagous to our tobacco, and the physiologies of Men and Hobbits are very close to ours, any potential dangers ought to be the same.
Then, I have to wonder if the Dwarves were susceptible to the disease Black Lung, which afflicts those who work in mines. Dwarves were smokers too, so they should have been dropping like flies. That is, unless they, like Elves, were invulnerable to illness. But that's another topic.

[Eönwë]

Then, I have to wonder if the Dwarves were susceptible to the disease Black Lung, which afflicts those who work in mines. Dwarves were smokers too, so they should have been dropping like flies. That is, unless they, like Elves, were invulnerable to illness. But that's another topic.

Do you mean Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis? ;)

Anyway, since Aulë designed the Dwarves to be craftspeople, it's not unlikely that made them more resistant to such illnesses. Then again, since there were no Men at the time, Aulë might not have seen or even known what disease was (I don't think that even the animals were around at the time, and they probably didn't interest Aulë that much anyway, and we know what thought about trees...)

[Airaloske]

modern cigarettes contain so much other disgusting material. is it the tobacco itself that causes the cancer or is the extra fun mix-ins that do the job?

i'm sure tobacco smoke is anything but healthful, but it can't be -as- bad as modern commercial cigarettes.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

It had also occured to me that the Hobbits smoked their pipeweed in pipes. They weren't smoking modern processed cigarettes.

As well as considering the health risks associated with smoking - we should also ask about the Hobbits' eating habits. They all seem to eat far too much. Do Hobbits get Heart Disease?

While we're at it; the Hobbits don't seem to have have flush toilets or other sewage disposal systems. Do Hobbits tend to die in large numbers from infectious diseases like Typhus, Cholera etc? At least they seem to bathe regularly...

We can play this game all day!

[Airaloske]

do hobbits get hookworm from running around barefoot all the time :P

[Selmo]

It had also occured to me that the Hobbits smoked their pipeweed in pipes. They weren't smoking modern processed cigarettes.

As well as considering the health risks associated with smoking - we should also ask about the Hobbits' eating habits. They all seem to eat far too much. Do Hobbits get Heart Disease?

While we're at it; the Hobbits don't seem to have have flush toilets or other sewage disposal systems. Do Hobbits tend to die in large numbers from infectious diseases like Typhus, Cholera etc? At least they seem to bathe regularly...

-

Smoking:
It's a myth that many dangerous chemicals are added to modern cigarettes. There are more than enough products of burning natural tobacco to account for all the health problems.
Hobbits may have avoided some of the problems of smoking because of the ammount they smoked. We know that Bilbo had a habit of smoking a pipe after breakfast, outdoors if the weather was fine, and another in the evening if he guests like Gandalf to share his tobacco with. If that was all he smoked, the risk to his health would be small.
During the walk from Bagend to Buckland, Sam comments, "An apple fpr walking and a pipe for sitting." Hobbits, it seems, didn't smoke while they were working; more evidence to suggest they smoked far less than the equivalent of twenty cigarettes a day.

Eating:
Tolkien said that Hobbits enjoyed extra meals when they could get them.
I think that in a pre-mechanised agricultural society, when they could get them would not be very often. A poor harvest could mean starvation. A bad year when Bilbo was a child caused very many deaths.

Diseases:
Hobbits were subject to infectious diseases. They were almost wiped out by a plague soon after they has settled in The Shire.

.