Feanor Self-Important?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I searched, and found no topics where my question was answered, although I may have over-looked something.

In Chapter 9 (Of the Flight of the Noldor) of the Silm, Feanor "cries bitterly" the following:

"...It may be that I can unlock my
jewels, but never again shall I make
their like; and if I must break them,
I shall break my heart, and I shall
be slain;first of all the Eldar in
Aman"

I am thoroughly confused as to precisely what Feanor means by the statement 'first'. To me, he could mean a number of things, two of which being:

1) that he would be the first to be slain
2) that he considers himself to be the first (best/highest) of the Eldar in Aman

And then Mandos says "Not the first." which could be him pointing out that he's not the first in Aman to die, or Mandos pointing out that Feanor is not the first of the Eldar.

I beg of you all, help me! I hate being confused and reading the Silm for the first time has got me a little messed up.

Fea

[Cuthalion]

Greetings, Feanor...

It would seem to me that Mandos is saying "Not the first." because Feanor's father Finwe had just been slain, making HIM the first among the Eldar to die. And I would think it a vast understatement to say that Feanor found himself and anything he had created, to be the most important thing on the face of the planet.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Actually, Miriel Serinde died before Finwe did... but she wasn't really slain, was she... and it would make sense that Mandos would be not understood when he said "not the first" because nobody else would yet know that Finwe had been killed... hmm...

[Cuthalion]

Correct. To be to be perfectly technical Finwe was the first slain. Feanor did not as yet know this.

[StarJewel]

Could Feanor also have meant that he would be the first to be slain by the means of a broken heart? He put his heart and soul into those jewels.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Possibly... But does slain apply to heart attacks?
Anyway, saying that Feanor is self-important is like saying "Luthien is pretty"; an understatement to end all understatements.
Feanor's ego was as big as Anduin was long.
But he's still one of my favourite characters smilies/wink.gif

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

But Feanor can be forgiven for his egotism because it is understandable.

(page 63 of the Silm) "...the eldest of
the sons of Finwe, and the most beloved."

All of the people that I have ever met that were the favorites of their parents have been insufferable. They act as if they hung the moon, because they grew up with their parents acting as though they had. It is a learned behavior and although highly annoying, it is understandable.

(page 98 of the Silm) "And they mourned
not more for the death of the Trees than
for the marring of Feanor: of the works
of Melkor one of the most evil.
B]For Feanor was made the mightiest
in all parts of body and mind, in valour,
in endurance, in beauty, in understanding,
in skill, in strength and in subtlety
alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar..."[/B]

This in itself is the biggest source of Feanor's self image: even the Valar admitted that Feanor was pretty much the best of all Children! Growing up and learning that one would affect anyone, whether they were actively arrogant or not. Just try and tell me that the knowledge that you were created better than everyone else wouldn't affect how you act!

Cheers
Fea

[ June 29, 2003: Message edited by: Feanor of the Peredhil ]

[Gorthol]

And I would think it a vast understatement to say that Feanor found himself and anything he had created, to be the most important thing on the face of the planet.

He did? What about the part in Silmarillion where it says (I could try and translate it from my Swedish version:

"And then Fëanor hastened away from Máhanaxar and fled through the night; for his father was more dear to him than both the Lights of Valinor and all the complete works of his own.."

So it seems that his love for his father was greater than the love he had for himself or the Silmarills.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Of course he has the full right to be as arrogant as he wants to be. Especially if he's allowed to get away with it.

[Gorthol]

Of course he has the full right to be as arrogant as he wants to be. Especially if he's allowed to get away with it.

Isn't it more so, that he was formed through his own greatness? Just like "Feanor of the Peredhil" explains..

[Finwe]

The way that Finwë spoiled Fëanor gives us all a pretty good reason as to why he was so arrogant and self-obsessed (other than his relationship with his father). Most only children that I've met, especially those who have lost their mothers very young, are absolute asses. Especially the boys. Fëanor knew he was his father's heir, and thus, was incredibly spoiled by just about everyone. I'm sure that a lot of people felt sorry for him since Miriel was dead, and he probably grew up as everyone's pet, and being able to order everyone around. Once Indis came along however, things changed remarkably. In an instant (well, more like a few decades), the once only-child-and-heir got a stepmother and two half-brothers. I don't think he took that well, and he probably kept wanting to prove to everyone that no matter what "the Sons of Indis" did, he would always be the best. A drive like that can often overpower common sense.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I agree. One of the most powerful things that drives me is wanting to prove that I'm capable of doing anything that my brothers can do, and that I can do it better. It's not always true, but it's a strong force.

With Curufinwe's "Fiery Spirit", he was tenacious enough to follow through with everything he did. I imagine that being capable of completing everything he started, not to mention doing it well, would give him an even higher ego-boost...

Fea

[Finwe]

That's true. Of course, the fact that he was also the most renowned jewel-smith of the Noldor and one of the most handsome Elves in Aman must have also gone to his head.

[Cuthalion]

But is that a good thing?

"For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman,great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife."

Seems pretty dang self-centered to me. I would be hard-pressed to find another character of Tolkien's with that kind of chutzpah. He is the father of over-achievers everywhere. And don't let's even start about the Oath...His defiance of Manwe left me open-mouthed the first time I read it.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Cuthalion ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

His defiance of Manwe left me open-mouthed the first time I read it
What part of defiance do you mean? The refusal of the Silmarils to Yavanna? Or urging the Noldor to rebell?
Even though he shouldn't have refused Yavanna, he actually had a right to. Also, leading the Noldor was not a crime, because they had a right to leave any time they wanted and he had the right to pursue.
The only crime he actually commited is the Kinslaying.
Feanor was very brave, very self-centered and very illogical. I think we all can agree to that.

PS What if he hadn't refused the Silmarils, and the Two Trees would have been renewed? No sun or moon for Middle Earth, no light for Men.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

"For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman,great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife."

Seems pretty dang self-centered to me.

Not really- ever heard the saying 'if you want something done right, you'd better do it yourself'? I imagine he probably saw other people's work as sub-par to his own and preferred to do his own work and get it right than to have to stand over a colleague and make sure that said colleague was working to his standards.

Fea

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Not really- ever heard the saying 'if you want something done right, you'd better do it yourself'? I imagine he probably saw other people's work as sub-par to his own and preferred to do his own work and get it right than to have to stand over a colleague and make sure that said colleague was working to his standards.

Or he simply disliked working with others. I know that when I am working on something, it seems to be easier to get it done alone than when working with someone else. Also, things done with a partner never turn out quite the same way as the original conceptor (if that is a word) plans. Having two minds working on something always changes the project. Ex. My friend makes and designs clothing and costumes. When the two of us collaborate, the style is immensely different than hers alone. (I hope I'm making sense here)

[Lord of Angmar]

Feanor was self-centered in that he knew that he was the most powerful of the Children of Illuvatar. If you knew this, would you really want help from any lesser beings? If he is the greatest craftsmen of all of the Children of Illuvatar, then by default anything that he collaborates with someone else with, no matter who it is, will be worse than if he had made it himself. The only exception to this is when he is learning new things (i.e. learning of Melkor the forgery of weaposn, etc.).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Or he simply disliked working with others

Excellent point. I for one can't stand working with people when I can do something on my own. I enjoy working in the vicinity of others, but not on the same things.

[Gorthol]

Feanor was self-centered in that he knew that he was the most powerful of the Children of Illuvatar. If you knew this, would you really want help from any lesser beings? If he is the greatest craftsmen of all of the Children of Illuvatar, then by default anything that he collaborates with someone else with, no matter who it is, will be worse than if he had made it himself. The only exception to this is when he is learning new things (i.e. learning of Melkor the forgery of weaposn, etc.)

Excellent post, dead on! Fëanor was unequaled; and hence he became what he became..

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Finwe]

I think that with great power comes a great ability to be illogical. Almost all great, gifted people are extremely illogical, because they believe themselves above the rules and standards of their "paltry contemporaries." I think that is why Fëanor seems to be so illogical.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Maybe Feanor knew something that we didn't (more than the obvious, of course) and what is illogical to us made perfect sense to him. (Before Finwe was killed and he went nuts, I mean).

[the phantom]

Maybe Feanor knew something that we didn't (more than the obvious, of course) and what is illogical to us made perfect sense to him.
That's what I've always thought. I've always thought that most of Feanor's actions are a result of him being so in tune with the big picture- the will of Eru. I'll explain.

When Feanor drew his sword on Fingolfin, that was actually a very good thing. Up until then, Melkor had been sowing his seeds of evil in the dark, but Feanor's breaking of the peace was directly responsible for the uncovering of Melkor's corrupt influence. Feanor was sort of a barometer that could be used to tell what wasn't right with things. If he did something that others considered wrong, it was usually a result of some other problem that had to be fixed (but if it wasn't getting fixed, then Feanor fixed it in his own way).

This is shown again when he rebels against the Valar. Remember, Ulmo never thought it was even a good idea to bring elves to Valinor. He thought they should stay in Middle Earth. Feanor's discontent can be seen as a result of the Valar unwisely bringing the elves over the sea.

Also, there's another thread where we came to the conclusion that the best way to defeat Melkor was to get him to spend himself over a long period of time so he would be weakened and less damage would be done to the earth when he was finally taken down. As we can see, that's exactly what happened. The Noldor went and started a war against him that kept him occupied for hundreds of years and then the Valar came and got him.

But if this was truly the best way to do things, then weren't the Noldor supposed to leave Valinor? At the same time, the Valar did not feel compelled to rush off to war. That's because it was Eru's will that they wait, but they incorrectly assumed that the "wait" command was for everyone, when in fact the Noldor's destiny was to go and begin the weakening of Melkor.

So they counseled against it, and assumed that their logic was infallible (when, in fact, the Valar are not perfect, and the Sil says that they were supposed to be elders among the elves as opposed to masters). Just because the Valar command something or want something doesn't make it right.

Here's a quote from another thread that states that it was the will of Eru that the Noldor go after Melkor.
The Vanyar found their contentment and satisfaction at the feet of the Valar, where as the Noldor found theirs in learning and delving into new things. This is a huge difference in character, and was not the choice of the Noldor and Vanyar, but the nature that was given to them by Eru.

Now, this difference is why the Noldor were corrupted. Melkor couldn't corrupt the Vanyar, because they were satisfied serving the Valar. He didn't have anything to tempt them with. But, the Noldor existed to create and pursue knowledge, two things that Melkor could help them with considerably.

They were created in such a way that the precise thing they loved would be the exact thing that Melkor could offer.

Why would this situation be allowed to happen? Because the rebellion of the Noldor was supposed to happen. It had to happen.

Not only were they "playing their part", but the nature in which they were created would have hardly allowed for anything else.

and then this in a later post-
The Teleri and the Valar shouldn't have hindered the Noldor. They (Valar and Teleri) weren't seeing clearly the will of Eru. They're not completely to blame, because it's very hard to see the big picture on such short notice, but the fact remains that the Noldor HAD to get to middle earth to contest Melkor's domination.
Yes, that's right. That last quote just said that the Noldor's rebellion was more in tune with Eru's plan than the resistance of the Valar and Teleri. The Teleri put complete and 100% trust and faith in the Valar, and Olwe in his words with Feanor believed staunchly that everything would be all hunky-dory again because the Valar would fix things. I think it's detestable that free peoples would completely subjugate themselves and put 100% trust in beings that are not perfect. Eru didn't create his children to obey every wish that other people made and never think or act themselves without getting approval.

Not only do the circumstances under which the Noldor were led to rebel point to it being the will of Eru, but their rebellion led to the enrichment of the world and better life for other elves and men of Middle-Earth. Feanor's heart knew what the big picture would be, and he was just following the will or Eru. I'll leave you with another quote from that other thread-
Where I (and possibly lord of dor-lomin) am coming from is what I like to call "the fate school". That essentially means that every person and/or group has a certain deed to do or goal to attain, and that things that are usually "wrong" are justifiable if they appear necessary to complete the task that Eru has put into their heart.
that other thread can be found here-> http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000038&p=

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Funny- I was just reading the other thread and I noticed something: they are bashing Feanor like mad.

Why do you believe it was Fëanor's place to decide when to punish Melkor?

It may not necessarily have been his 'place', but should anyone just stay home and be good when their life is being torn apart by a single entity? And was it Melkor's 'right' to corrupt the world? Is that anyone's 'right'?

You're right, I would definitely slaughter my buddy and his family and take what I wanted from him.

You forget that he wasn't in his right mind. Keep in mind that he had just lost three of the most important things in his life:
1) The Light of the Trees. He was in shock and mourning at this loss. And then:
2) He got the news that the being who had just destroyed the Light had slain his father, who he held more dear than anything, including his silmarils. And then:
3) He was informed that above said being had stolen his most prized possessions, that he concieved, created, and cherished more than life itself.
Needless to say, he went nuts, and can you really condemn an insane man for his actions?

well how about offering something for the return of the Silmarill

Ooh- this I love. Let us dissect this a little:

Here is this guy, your mortal enemy, who has just been let out of prison, and he starts to corrupt the rest of the world. That's not enough, so he decides to rid the world of light. So your mourning the loss of the most beautiful creations on Earth, and your mortal enemy shows up at your house, kills your dad, and then steals your possessions, including your most cherished ones. Should the victim pay the theif to return the pilfered items? I think not.

Anything! Sorry, the kinslayings, over an OBJECT is pitiful.

It is pitiful, or at least pitiable. Feanor was not in his right mind when he went chasing after the Silms, so his actions are understandable, if not excusable, but the Teleri fought over ships! Honestly, what's worse, killing because you swore an oath to retrieve your possessions, or killing because someone wants to borrow your boats. Seriously: the Kinslaying was stupid. Both sides killed over objects, but you don't see anyone bashing the Teleri!

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just so long as they don't push it on others. Just remember that my opinions are my own and that you don't have to agree with me, although it would be nice.

Fea

[the phantom]

I was just reading the other thread and I noticed something: they are bashing Feanor like mad.
People always bash Feanor and the Noldor. Note the second to the last post in that other thread that I made explaining why people do it. It's pretty sad.

And I, for one, would almost excuse the kinslaying. Remember, not only did the Teleri refuse to give them a lift, but they wouldn't even help them build their own boats. Why did the Teleri do this? Because they were blindly following the wishes of the Valar as if they were perfect beings. "The Valar don't approve of you going, so we're going to refuse to do anything to help you."

And also, Feanor deemed the ice of the north impassible, so as far as he knew, the ONLY WAY to fulfill his destiny was to use ships to get across, and the Teleri wouldn't so much as lift a paddle. So Feanor, seeing no other way, took matters into his own hands and started manning the ships. The Teleri responded by throwing some of the Noldor into the sea and an all out fight resulted.

I would put more blame on the Valar (and the Teleri for blindly following them) for their interference with the fate of the Noldor.

Maybe this opinion seems radical to you people, but my opinion is partly a result of all the people I've seen who literally hate the Noldor and Feanor and are completely stuck in their ways. I feel that someone just as radical needs to oppose them, and defend the Noldor (and particularly Feanor) at all costs. If you don't want to see me post stuff like this, then stop Noldor & Feanor bashing.

(actually, this thread has been fairly good about not doing that thus far, I'm impressed)

[The Saucepan Man]

Whatever may be said about the Kinslaying (and I agree with many of the points that you have made, Fea and Phantom), surely Feanor's most reprehensible act was abandoning the host of Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons on the shores of Aman. Unhinged or not, there is simply no excuse for this. Afflicted by the Doom of Mandos which Feanor's own actions had brought about, they could not return to Valinor and so had to endure the unutterable hardship of the Helcaraxe.

Of all Feanor's acts, this is the one that condemns him most in my mind.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

I personally believe that both the Noldor and the Teleri are responsible for the kinslaying. The Noldor, for losing their tempers and starting to steal the ships and kill people.
The Teleri, for blindly trusting the Valar who never cared for much except their precious Valinor.

To Phantom: Wow! I fully agree with you!

Anyway, like I said in my previous reply, if Feanor would not have done what he did, it could well mean no light for Middle Earth and no one to teach the Edain.

, surely Feanor's most reprehensible act was abandoning the hosts of Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons on the shores of Aman
Yep! Even worse than the Kinslaying. Feanor blindy panicked which led to the anger between the houses.

[Lord of Angmar]

The Kinslaying, while pitiable, was not excusable, and the Teleri were not equally to blame as was suggested in an earlier post; they were merely defending their works. And, while it can be argued that Feanor was doing the same, it was he that initiated the killing and he who was in the wrong to even request the ships, so the Teleri in my mind hold none of the blame. Feanor was not in his right mind, surely, he was fey and wild with ideas of glory and conquest in Middle Earth, but he wrought for himself this insanity and he was too blame for the actions that ensued.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

surely Feanor's most reprehensible act was abandoning the host of Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons on the shores of Aman
Not necessarily the most reprehensible, but very high on the list. It wasn't necessarily Feanor's leaving though, it was the fact that Fingolfin and Finarfin's sons followed that got to me. The fact that Feanor was so whacked out by then that he couldn't recognize the love and loyalty (or at least will to fulfil the quest) of his own kin... It's sad.

Fea

[the phantom]

and he who was in the wrong to even request the ships
He didn't just request the ships. As can be inferred by Olwe's answer to Feanor, Feanor obviously suggested that the Teleri merely give them a ride (in other words control of the boats remains with the Teleri the entire time) or that they help the Noldor or teach them to build ships of their own. After the Noldor had built the Teleri's city for them, it seems like a small request for the Noldor to ask assistance or guidance in a labor that they would complete themselves.

So Feanor gave the Teleri several other options besides letting the Noldor borrow the boats.
it was he that initiated the killing
Was it? He began manning the ships and the Teleri resisted with violence and then a fight broke out. Perhaps one of the Teleri was the first to slay another elf. But if you want to say the Teleri had to fight because Feanor was taking their ships, then we can play the cause and effect chain all day. Feanor had to take the ships because he was chasing after Morgoth. He was chasing Morgoth because Morgoth killed his father (the king of the Noldor) and stole his belongings. Morgoth was able to do this because the Valar let him out of prison. So where does the blame stop. If we follow the chain back, then it's all the Valar's fault (as Feanor seemed to believe, perhaps it really was a fruit of the Valar incorrectly bringing the elves to Valinor and allowing Melkor the weasel to roam free).
and he was too blame for the actions that ensued
The events are too complicated to state without a shadow of a doubt that these things can all be blamed on one single person (especially when there's the possibility that this person was attempting to accomplish the deed that Eru had purposed for him and put into his heart).

[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Well, I can see your point, but there was another reason that the Teleri resisted, and that is because aiding the Noldor would have been going directly against the will of the Valar. Furthermore, Feanor's plan was not to have the Teleri taxi them to Middle-Earth but the borrow the ships, which he almost certainly would never have returned. Olwe certainly foresaw that his ships would not return to him. Of the ships that Feanor did end up stealing many were lost at sea.

Also, Feanor was the first one roused to wrath, and why should not the Teleri defend their ships if he attempts to steal them by force?

The Teleri giving the ships to the Noldor would have been against the will of the Valar and would also have cost them their greatest works, which they should not have felt obligated to give to the Noldor, whose parting they obviously knew was folly. Since Feanor attempted to steal the ships, his actions directly resulted in the Kinslaying and he was responsible for the battle at Alqualonde.

[Lord of Angmar]

especially when there's the possibility that this person was attempting to accomplish the deed that Eru had purposed for him and put into his heart

Feanor should have known quite well that Eru would not put a purpose into his heart that conflicted so greatly with Manwe, who "in all things [has] served most faithfully the purpose of Illuvatar" (Ainulindale, 2nd Ed., 9).

[Finwe]

Lord of Angmar, the reason that many of the ships were lost at sea, is because Ossë became enraged at the slaughter of the Elves that he had loved so much, and all the sea erupted in storms. Ossë wanted to get back at Feanor and his followers for the Kinslaying, that was why many of the ships were lost at sea. Of course, it could also be that the Noldor were really horrible sailors, and couldn't sail tubs worth their lives.

I think that if we keep discussing who's to blame for the Kinslaying, this discussion will get nowhere. Both Olwë and Fëanor are to blame, and so is Fingon, in a part. Olwë was wrong in immediately shutting out Fëanor, and condemning him for rebelling against the Valar. Olwë was being a mindless follower, and not completely listening to Fëanor. Fëanor, on the other hand, assumed that he was in the right, and also assumed that Olwë would let him take the ships. Once the fighting broke out initially, Fingolfin's men came upon the scene, led by Fingon. The latter assumed that Olwë's men were attacking the Noldor, and threw his men into the fray, against the Teleri. What happened after that is common knowledge. The Noldor won the fight.

I think that the biggest mistake that everyone made was making assumptions. That is what led to the Kinslaying.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that brings closure to that debate. smilies/wink.gif

I think the Valar are also somewhat to blame. They knew Feanor could not get far, and they knew that the Teleri were the only ones with ships. Given Feanor's obviously fey and wrathful mood, what did they think, that the Noldor would just stay trapped in Aman if they couldn't find any way to leave?

[Finwe]

I think the same. The Valar were partly to blame because they didn't take into account the indomitable spirits of the Noldor. They thought that all of the Elves would be as happy as the Vanyar, in serving the Valar and being in Valinor, singing and dancing all day. Apparently, not all Elves are nancy Vanyar! smilies/biggrin.gif

[the phantom]

Feanor's plan was not to have the Teleri taxi them to Middle-Earth but the borrow the ships
Nope. This is from The Silmarillion-
but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar
Feanor offered those other options.
which he almost certainly would never have returned
I wouldn't assume that he would steal the ships if they willingly helped him. And if they would've helped him build ships then they would be his to keep.
Fëanor, on the other hand, assumed that he was in the right
Has anyone ever thought for a moment that perhaps he was? When he answered the herald of the Valar and ended with "Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!", his voice was so great and potent that the herald bowed before him. Maybe he was right. The Valar did end up following the same road to the same purpose as Feanor, across the sea to fight Morgoth.
what did they think, that the Noldor would just stay trapped in Aman if they couldn't find any way to leave?
They didn't know what to think. The Valar were in a new situation, they were faced with a great being that was adamantly refusing their advice and insisting that he was correct and determined to follow his own path.

Do you think that there was some pride involved on the Valar's part? (remember, they're free beings completely subject to mistakes and incorrect feelings, thoughts, and actions) Perhaps they were being slapped with the reality that they weren't rulers, they weren't perfect in their judgment, and that a mere elf could hold more sway over people's hearts than they could.

I take Feanor's statement "In the end they shall follow me" at face value. I think that the Valar eventually realized their mistake of hindering the Noldor's destiny (and having too large an influence over the Teleri, resulting in their blind refusal to so much as help the Noldor).

I think the ridiculous amount of influence the Valar had over the Teleri is one of the most interesting aspects of this whole debate. It was like a dictatorship or something. "The Valar wish this, so I'll completely treat their wish like an all out command and assume that the Valar are perfect. I don't need to think and discern for myself, I'm just a puppet." I think that is so horrible.
Apparently, not all Elves are nancy Vanyar!
Careful. You don't want to tick off the Vanyar lovers so much that they'd post on this thread (because many of them double as Noldor haters).

[StarJewel]

If every elf obeyed the Valar blindly like the Vanyar did, it would meant that there was no free will with the elves. Some of them were bound to start thinking for themselves, for good or bad. The Vanyar, and also the Valar to a degree, were going on a little power trip trying to control every beings actions

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Starjewel, that's rubbish. To wish to merely control everyone is evil, and the Vanyar and the Valar certainly were not that. That was what Melkor had wished to do from the beginning.
The Noldor were not hindered in their departure from Aman. The Elves in Valinor were not kept there by force, but compelled to live there in good faith because it was clearly the wiser choice -- at least from the point of view of the Vanyar and the Valar. The Vanyar were wise, and wished for peace and joy above conquest. They were gentle and wise people, while the Noldor were tougher, more active and willing to endure hardhips -- although of course the Vanyar proved courageous soldiers when it was required of them to rescue Middle-Earth, under the banner of Eonwe. They were peaceful and harmonious Elves, desiring nothing but the bliss of Valinor, and saw no reason why the Noldor should not be too. That was the difference between them. I do not think either was the greater.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Lord of Angmar]

I wouldn't assume that he would steal the ships if they willingly helped him. And if they would've helped him build ships then they would be his to keep.

Tell me, who of the Noldor would have sailed the ships back to the Teleri after they had reached Middle Earth? How would Feanor have returned them?

[the phantom]

Tell me, who of the Noldor would have sailed the ships back to the Teleri after they had reached Middle Earth? How would Feanor have returned them?
If they were his ships then he wouldn't have to return them.

Or if they weren't helped to build their own, the Teleri could've ferried the Noldor across and then sailed the ships home themselves. They loved sailing anyway.

[Gorthol]

the Teleri could've ferried the Noldor across and then sailed the ships home themselves.

I second to this! To start a war over the ships wasn't the right way to go, it would have been better for all if the Teleri just had complied with Fëanors wishes, right or wrong. I doubt Ossë would have sunken any ships if they had been used as "ferrys" instead of taken by force and through the deaths of many Teleri.

However, what I have a hard time understanding is that the Valar seems to put so much of the blame of everything that happened on Fëanor and the Noldor, eventhough it was the lies of Melkor that corrputed them..

[Lord of Angmar]

I too think that the Valar were unfair in judging the Noldor when it was clearly the craft of Melkor. However I stand firmly by my belief that the Teleri had every right to reserve from the Noldor (even as ferries) the work of their hands, as it was against the will of the Valar and as Feanor was obviously, if you will pardon the expression, off his rocker.

[the phantom]

the Teleri had every right to reserve from the Noldor (even as ferries) the work of their hands
Yes, they had the right to not help their friends.
as it was against the will of the Valar
Who cares what they think? All that should've mattered is the situation at hand. Olwe should've considered the factors involved and the possible outcomes and weighed his decision on those things rather than placing all weight with the wishes of the Valar.
Feanor was obviously, if you will pardon the expression, off his rocker
Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps the flame Eru set in his heart was indeed greater than the Valar knew (as Feanor stated), and caused him to be the only one bringing about the ultimate designs of Eru in every situation, whether it could be done in a harmless way or seemingly had to be done in a negative way because of the resistance of others.

[Lord of Angmar]

I still do not believe that it makes sense that the flame that Eru Illuvatar set in Feanor's heart would cause him to take actions that so egregiously opposed the will of Manwe, who alone of all the Valar can read the thoughts of the Creator. The suggestion that somehow Manwe could need even fathom Curufinwe's true purpose is within the realm of possibility, but it is merely conjecture that I don't think we can back up in any conventional sense with the texts provided to us (please do not accuse me of being anti-Noldor or anti-Feanor, as some have suggested, as Feanor is one of my favorite characters and one of the most interesting, and the plight of the Noldor is one of the saddest things I have ever read of).

[The Saucepan Man]

Olwe should've considered the factors involved and the possible outcomes and weighed his decision on those things rather than placing all weight with the wishes of the Valar.

What is there to suggest that he did not do this? Quite possibly he did and simply came to the same conclusion as the Valar, namely that Feanor's plan was folly:

We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly.

And if he truly believed that it was folly for the Noldor to leave Aman in the circumstances then prevailing, why would he be willing to help them leave? Certainly, he was quite within his rights to refuse to give or lend the Noldor the Teleri ships, which he describes thus:

... these are to us as are the gems to the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

Quite possibly, in time, Olwe might have been persuaded to build new (obviously less wondrous) ships. But Feanor did not stay to discuss the matter further. Hot-headed as always, he simply stormed off to brood and then, when he considered that the strength of his force was sufficient, he returned to steal them, clearly with the intention of doing so by force if necessary.

[Gorthol]

What is there to suggest that he did not do this? Quite possibly he did and simply came to the same conclusion as the Valar, namely that Feanor's plan was folly:

Yup, but still he *also* knew the temper of Fëanor at the time, cause he had just lost his father, his Silms., and being decieved by Melko (one of Valars kin) and were pretty frustrated to say the least. Since the Teleri provided the only way to reach Middle-earth again (afa the elves knew at the time) they had to borrow the ships, being ferried over, or steal the ships to get across. Building ships werent an option since there wasn't time for that. This Olwë knew, still he refused.

these are to us as are the gems to the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

I do think they loved their ships as much as noldor loved the Silms. But still a ship doesn't break just because you use it to ferry some people over. Ossë wouldnt have sunken them either.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Ossë wouldnt have sunken them either

Maybe not, but he might have made it difficult to actually get to ME. Setting them against the wind, altering the currents, those things would have effectively kept them from reaching their destination.

Who cares what they [the Valar] think?

Well, the Teleri obviously cared. And perhaps Olwë thought that by keeping Fëanor in Valinor, he was protecting him. Fëanor was not sane at the time, and most people don't let the insane wander around, especially those who are insane through grief and anger.

When one has lost their father, their greatest treasure, and one's life has been turned upside down, one is rarely able to think coherently.

Please don't think that I'm Noldor/Fëanor bashing. I love all of the elves.

[The Saucepan Man]

... a ship doesn't break just because you use it to ferry some people over.

Who's to say that the ships, or some of them, would not have been destroyed? The Noldor were planning on leaving Valinor against the will of the Valar and sailing in chase of a pretty dangerous Dark Lord, the most powerful of the Valar no less, and a fearsome and gigantic spider with a serious over-eating problem. That seems to me to be a fairly risky maritime undertaking.

Olwe had no more idea than we do as to what might happen to his precious ships if he permitted them to be used to ferry the Noldor across to ME.

No, I am still firmly of the view that he was well within his rights to refuse to allow them to be used.

[Gorthol]

Who's to say that the ships, or some of them, would not have been destroyed? The Noldor were planning on leaving Valinor against the will of the Valar and sailing in chase of a pretty dangerous Dark Lord, the most powerful of the Valar no less, and a fearsome and gigantic spider with a serious over-eating problem. That seems to me to be a fairly risky maritime undertaking.

Well, that's of course impossible to say, but surely the kinslaying was the factor that triggered Ossës wrath and have him sunk many of the ships. Eventhough Fëanor did act against Valars will and he said some stuff that was wrong, still my belief is that they (Noldor, Fëanor) hadn't done anything really terrible previous to this. I say that Ossë wouldn't have sunken any ships if it weren't for the kinslaying and the deaths of the Sea Men he loved. Valar had no authority to prohibit Noldor from returning.

[the phantom]

in chase of a pretty dangerous Dark Lord, the most powerful of the Valar no less, and a fearsome and gigantic spider with a serious over-eating problem. That seems to me to be a fairly risky maritime undertaking
Only if 1- Melkor and Ungoliant had suddenly taken to swimming, and 2- Ulmo, Osse, and Uinen refused to ensure their safety (in the unlikely event that Melkor suddenly decided he didn't hate water anymore, was no longer afraid of it, and had learned to control it overnight).

The voyage seems pretty safe to me.
(speaking of Osse) Maybe not, but he might have made it difficult to actually get to ME. Setting them against the wind, altering the currents, those things would have effectively kept them from reaching their destination.
The Valar and their servants weren't supposed to hinder the Noldor's flight. The only reason the sea rose against the Noldor was because of the kin slaying. If that didn't happen, the sea wouldn't have done that, make sense?
Since the Teleri provided the only way to reach Middle-earth again (afa the elves knew at the time) they had to borrow the ships, being ferried over, or steal the ships to get across.
This Olwë knew, still he refused.
Yes, exactly! That's the sort of reasoning that should've been obvious to Olwe. But I guess he never thought of that. How could he not think of something so simple? Because he wasn't thinking at all, he was just going along with the Valar. If those in charge have too much influence in individual peoples' lives then those people lose their ability to make good decisions (which would reinforce their need for those in power, it creates a never ending spiral).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

that he was well within his rights to refuse to allow them to be used.

Too true. Now mind you all, Feanor is my favorite character and I think he's the coolest elf that there was, but look at it from a slightly distorted sense:

Feanor lost his gems and wanted to go after the thief. The only way to get to them was to hijack the ships of the Teleri, either by their leave, or without it.

Switch views: After destroying the Light, rather than going to Feanor's place, Melkor veers off and goes to the Teleri and steals their ships. The Teleri are royally ticked and want their ships back, but they can't get to ME without the aid of the light of the Silmarils, so they go and ask Feanor to borrow them, or he can have other choices: he can make them some more (or similar), or he can come along with them and guard the Sils. As if Feanor would have let them have his Silmarils! He would have been preoccupied with the thought that Melkor might take them by force from the Teleri and he'd never get them back, he'd think that the Teleri wanted the Sils for themselves. He wouldn't think intelligently, he'd jump to conclusions, just like the Teleri did, and probably refuse them point blank.

So even though I love Feanor, why on Earth did he think the Teleri would just hand over their ships when put in their positions, he wouldn't have?

Fea

[the phantom]

why on Earth did he think the Teleri would just hand over their ships when put in their positions
Like I keep saying, they had other options to exercise besides handing their ships over.
he'd think that the Teleri wanted the Sils for themselves. He wouldn't think intelligently, he'd jump to conclusions
Actually, in the case of the Silmarils, Feanor would probably be correct in jumping to that sort of conclusion. Even mighty King Elwe was moved to greed by the Silmarils despite the direct advice of his wife (who was a Maia) to give it up.

I think the fact that Olwe attempted to compare his ships with the Silmarils was a bit ridiculous (perhaps he was taking too much pride in his work). The Silmarils on the other hand dropped the jaws on the Valar even, and the fate of the world was tied with them. I think it was quite a stretch for Olwe to compare his people's ships with the greatest work of hands ever made. Perhaps he was trying to find some reason, any reason to say no to the Noldor so he could justify in his heart obedience to the Valar's wishes.

[The Saucepan Man]

Only if 1- Melkor and Ungoliant had suddenly taken to swimming, and 2- Ulmo, Osse, and Uinen refused to ensure their safety (in the unlikely event that Melkor suddenly decided he didn't hate water anymore, was no longer afraid of it, and had learned to control it overnight).

For all Olwe knew, Melkor could have twisted creatures of the sea and enlisted them into his service. Add to that the possibility of an ambush by Melkor's forces (Orcs, Balrogs and possibly more besides) at the point of landing, which could have led to the ships being boarded and any Teleri "taxi pilots" being slain. And why should Ulmo, Osse etc ensure the safe passage of the Noldor (even with Teleri assistance) when their actions went against the wishes and counsels of the Valar?

Like I keep saying, they had other options to exercise besides handing their ships over.

The only option which might have been acceptable to Olwe would have been to build more ships. But as I said, while Olwe might have been persuaded to agree to this, Feanor wasn't prepared to discuss the situation reasonably. He skulked off with the intention of coming back later in force and simply taking the ships.

Because he wasn't thinking at all, he was just going along with the Valar.

As I have said previously, there is nothing to suggest that Olwe didn't consider the matter independently and simply reach the same conclusion as the Valar.

If those in charge have too much influence in individual peoples' lives then those people lose their ability to make good decisions

And Feanor's decisions were good? smilies/tongue.gif

Like others on this thread, I am not Feanor-bashing for the sake of it. I find him to be a compelling character, one of the most interesting in the Silmarillion. And I can understand (although not necessarily agree with) his actions (excepting of the burning of the ships at Losgar). I just don't believe that Olwe should bear any blame for the Kinslaying simply for refusing to hand over (or lend) the Teleri ships to Feanor. Had Feanor thought matters through deliberately and rationally and been prepared to enter into calm and reasoned discussion, it is quite possible that he could have found a way of getting back to ME without resorting to theft by force (such as persuading the Teleri to build ships especially for the purpose). Ah, but that was not in Feanor's nature. smilies/frown.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

that Olwe attempted to compare his ships with the Silmarils was a bit ridiculous

Not really, at least, not in the way I'm thinking. You see it as the jaw-dropping-changed-the-future type of creation. That the ships don't even compare because the Silmarils were simply much more important, but that wasn't really how I was thinking of it. Yes, the Sils were more important, but if you look at it, not what they did but what they were, you can see that Olwe was correct in comparing them. Both the Sils and the ships were the prizes of their people, the best thing that they could possibly make, and the likes of which could never be made again. If they were lost, any of them, it's not like they could be replaced, so Olwe was correct in seeing that the prize of his people should not be handed over lightly, especially against the wishes of their protectors.

Fea

[akhtene]

Perhaps my opinion will be too human (and too emotional) but here it is.

Nobody was thinking rationally at any given moment, or trying to really come to any reasonable terms.

There are victims, yes, but I wouldn’t call any party straightaway villains.
Take Feanor. Cherished by his father, admired by everyone, used to having things his own way – in a moment he loses everything! First the Trees are destroyed – and he must have admired them, as he included their light in his gems. Then his father is killed and his treasure is stolen – he just hadn’t been prepared to that! He gets a most severe shock and is simply unable to think or choose words.

The Valar. They seem too placid sitting there in the Ring of Doom, weeping. They were mourning the Trees, but wasn’t it their responsibility to guard and guide the elves and do something about a case of vandalism, murder and theft, which occurred in their lands? How come that it was bitter and furious Feanor who addressed his people first? I suppose the Valar were taken unawares, but then it looks as if they just took offence. Feanor really sounded harsh and called to unwise actions, he was taking too much upon himself. But no help was offered or counsel came from the Valar. You may say it was a matter of faith. Feanor lost it.

Moreover, by Manwe’s curse Feanor wasn’t given any choice. He was exiled and had to leave Valinor. Can you imagine Feanor begging for mercy right away? But again, he wasn’t given any time to calm down and come to his senses. It was like an avalanche – every next moment driving him further by the road of rejection and hatred.

As for Telleri, they were in their right to refuse any help and refer to the Valar’s wish to justify themselves. And they could pronounse their ships the greatest treasure of their kin. But then the Noldor were after THEIR treasure, and the only hope to reach it was by those ships. If only Telleri would look for compromise or play for time. But no, Olwe’s words were not less arrogant than Feanor’s.

Anyway, wasn’t all that just Eru’s intention to return elves back to M-E, to face Morgoth and fight him, without a chance to desert to comforts of Valinor? smilies/evil.gif

[the phantom]

One thing people seem to be forgetting is that the Noldor had to get to ME as soon as they possibly could. They actually arrived a bit later than they should have, a result of their march being hindered.

Why did they have to be back in ME immediately? Well, do you remember what was going on back in Beleriand?
From the Silmarillion-
and they issued from Angband's gates under the clouds that Morgoth sent forth
But the Orcs came down upon either side of Menegroth
and they plundered far and wide; and Thingol was cut off from Cirdan at Eglarest
But the victory of the Elves was dear bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him
the Orc-host in the west was victorious, and had driven Cirdan to the rim of the sea
Morgoth had started his world conquest machine up the instant he got back to ME. At the point where I stopped quoting, the only refuges left were the Havens and Doriath, and the Havens were about to go down to defeat. Thingol and Melian shut themselves in Doriath and she put out her girdle of protection. In other words, the world was pretty much open for conquest (except Doriath, and how long would it last if Morgoth gave it his 100% concentration and no one else was distracting him).

Things looked pretty bleak, but here's what happened-
In this same time Feanor came over the Sea in the white ships of the Teleri
But the host of Morgoth, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning at Losgar, came through the passes of Ered Wethrin, the Mountains of Shadow, and assailed Feanor
The Noldor, out-numbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords long and terrible. The Orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim with great slaughter
There the armies of Morgoth that had passed south into the Vale of Sirion and beleaguered Cirdan in the Havens of the Falas came up to their aid, and were caught in their ruin.
Evil indeed were the tidings that came at last to Angband, and Morgoth was dismayed. Ten days that battle lasted, and from it returned of all the hosts that he had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves.
Feanor saved Beleriand, and pretty much the whole world from Morgoth. If he could've arrived sooner, maybe he could've saved many more of the innocent elves of Beleriand who were slain in battle.

And note what the burning of the ships accomplished. The burning was a huge factor in making Morgoth's forces turn their attention away from Cirdan and Beleriand and attack the Noldor ("and the noise of the burning of the ships at Losgar went down the winds of the sea as a tumult of great wrath, and far away all that heard...", it was the noise and light of the burning that attracted the Orcs). If the ships wouldn't have been burned, the orcs likely wouldn't have learned of the Noldor's arrival until later, so they very possibly would've broken through and taken out the almost defeated Cirdan at the Havens.

So as you can see, even the most insane of Feanor's actions was the best conceivable way to bring about good in the world.

If Eru's plan was to have some powerful elves go back to ME, who would he send? The Noldor. They were the greatest warriors.

What is the only way the Noldor would go back? If they wanted to go.

How could you get such a large group of people to want to go? Put a fiery desire to leave in the heart of the greatest persuader and orator ever to live.

When did they have to be back? As soon as possible. The world was under attack.

How could they get there that quick? They would have to be hindered as little as possible on their journey and taken over the sea in boats.

They were refused the use of the boats but the timetable hadn't changed. How do you get them over the sea in time now? They must steal the boats.

Because of the battle and the wrath of the sea delaying them, their arrival is almost too late to save Beleriand from the Orcs. How do you get the Orcs attention as quick as possible? You light up the sky with a huge noisy burning.

Feanor did what needed to be done. His heart could sense the greater good and the big picture, and he was able to look past the means to the ends and do what had to be done to bring about the best possible result. He was a tool of fate.

[The Saucepan Man]

If Eru's plan was to have some powerful elves go back to ME, who would he send? The Noldor. They were the greatest warriors ...

... Feanor did what needed to be done ... He was a tool of fate.


Why, in that case it is Eru who must take full blame for the Kinslaying, and for the burning of the ships at Losgar for that matter. smilies/tongue.gif

No, I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that all of Feanor's actions were "meant" to happen for the good of ME. Feanor had free will and must bear responsibility for his actions and their consequences, both good and bad. Yes, some good came of them, but that does not justify the death and suffering that were largely (if not wholly) brought about by them.

I would add that, if Feanor were simply a puppet of fate and had no free will of his own, it would, for me, destroy a large part of what makes this character so fascinating. He would become an automaton, animated by the will of Eru, rather than the fiery, passionate, complex and (yes) flawed character that I consider him to be.

[Gorthol]

Feanor had free will and must bear responsibility for his actions and their consequences, both good and bad.

We are all formed through our upbringing, our environment and our genes. I think "what you are" and "what you become" is formed through that, i.e. you don't have any "free will" it's already decided for you. Fëanor was decieved by the mightiest of the Valar, and how powerful Fëanor even was, this was no problem for Morgoth, he corrupted Fëanor and is imho the one responsible for what later happened. Cause compared to the knowledge that Morgoth possessed Fëanor was but a child..

[the phantom]

if Feanor were simply a puppet of fate and had no free will of his own... He would become an automaton, animated by the will of Eru, rather than the fiery, passionate, complex and (yes) flawed character
That's not exactly what I meant. I'm saying that the extreme potency of his spirit and his unmatched passion allowed his heart (which was good) to choose whatever course of action would have the best results. Sort of like his heart could see the future and if necessary would overcome the counsel of his mind so he would choose that which would bring about good.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

the phantom posted:

I think the ridiculous amount of influence the Valar had over the Teleri is one of the most interesting aspects of this whole debate. It was like a dictatorship or something. "The Valar wish this, so I'll completely treat their wish like an all out command and assume that the Valar are perfect. I don't need to think and discern for myself, I'm just a puppet." I think that is so horrible.

Morgoth would agree completely with those words smilies/evil.gif , he couldn't either stand Eru's 'dictatorship'.

Gorthol posted:

We are all formed through our upbringing, our environment and our genes. I think "what you are" and "what you become" is formed through that, i.e. you don't have any "free will" it's already decided for you.

Fëanor and Noldor had free will, as well as the Vanyar and the Teleri smilies/smile.gif The difference is that Fëanor is too proud to accept guidance by others. I completely agree with Lord of Angmar and The Saucepan Man. It is just too easy to excuse our bad acts by blaming the environment or our genes, and I cannot imagine Fëanor doing it. smilies/tongue.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

That's not exactly what I meant.

I understand what you mean, phantom. It's just that I think that it detracts from Feanor's character to consider his actions in terms of fulfilling the will of Eru. As Amarie has suggested, Feanor's actions fulfilled the will of Eru in much the same way that those of Morgoth did. No, Feanor's actions were driven by his own motives, feelings and desires. Those I can sympathise with. But I have little sympathy for the way that he put them into effect.

Sort of like his heart could see the future and if necessary would overcome the counsel of his mind so he would choose that which would bring about good.

Well if that was the case, then his heart was misguided. To the extent that his actions did ultimately work to the good (and I agree that the return of the Noldor to ME was, overall, a good thing), I firmly believe that there were ways in which the same good could have been acheived without the suffering inflicted along the way - not just the Kinslaying and the burning of the Teleri ships, but also the whole way in which the Doom of Mandos played itself out.

[Gorthol]

Fëanor and Noldor had free will, as well as the Vanyar and the Teleri The difference is that Fëanor is too proud to accept guidance by others. I completely agree with Lord of Angmar and The Saucepan Man. It is just too easy to excuse our bad acts by blaming the environment or our genes, and I cannot imagine Fëanor doing it.

You only have free will within your own understanding. The problem for the society today and others is that when a person breaks the law it's only *that* person that is to blame, don't you think that it's more likely that this person is formed through his life, his upbringning, his school, his genes?? And thus becomes what he becomes..?
That's what I stand by 100% Do we have a free will? Or is what we do and accomplish already decided through whats stated above? Fëanor was decieved by the God of all Gods so how can you blame him? Really?

[ July 04, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Put a fiery desire... in the heart of the greatest persuader and orator ever to live.

Reminds me of Hitler.

However, that's not why I'm writing this post. In the very beginning of the Silm, around when Melkor first disrupted the music and such (I'm probably not all that accurate since I had to return the copy of the Silm that I had), wasn't it written that Eru had made it so that all "bad" things that happened on Earth would contribute to the greater good that he imagined? Or something like that? You'd think that the Creator of everything would look at things from a different view than "the end justifies the means."

Fea

[Gorthol]

wasn't it written that Eru had made it so that all "bad" things that happened on Earth would contribute to the greater good that he imagined? Or something like that?
Yea, it would contribute to the greatness of the story/music.

[King_Elendil]

It's almost disappointing how soon Feanor died in the Sil.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Do we have a free will? Or is what we do and accomplish already decided through whats stated above? Fëanor was decieved by the God of all Gods so how can you blame him? Really?

Yes, I do think that we have free will. And that all of us are responsible of our acts, including Fëanor. I can understand why he acted as he did, because I am often too proud and irascible smilies/frown.gif ) as he was, but that does not mean that neither his acts nor mine could be justified by blaming the Valar or Eru. smilies/wink.gif His acts were 'tolerated' by Eru. This is what Tolkien thought of free will:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (...) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences.
Letter No. 153

And here there is an interesting debate on free will:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002495

About how Eru turn evil into good, this is the same problem that has been faced by all Catholics for centuries (and probably by all other christians). In my opinion, in the Ainulindalë, he is only translating the beliefs of the Catholic Church into the language of his sub-creation:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
St. Augustine, Enchiridion II, 3: PL 40, 236.

"In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: 'It was not you', said Joseph to his brothers, 'who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive.'[Gen 45:8; Gen 50:20; cf. Tob 2:12 (Vulgate).] From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that 'abounded all the more',[Cf. Rom 5:20 .] brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good."
Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

that does not mean that neither his acts nor mine could be justified by blaming the Valar or Eru

So very true. If you've ever read the book A Wrinkle in Time then you will probably understand better what I'm about to say. If you haven't, bear with me while I try to explain it. In AWiT, Mrs. Whatsit (i beleive) tries to describe the human life using a sonnet.

To write a sonnet, you have to follow very strict rules, correct? And if you do not follow the rules, than the poetry becomes something other than a sonnet. However, the form of the sonnet can be filled any way you like. You get to choose what the sonnet is about.

According to Mrs. Whatsit (I think), the human life is like a sonnet. God/Eru/whatever else you happen to believe in, gives your life the form, and you choose how to fill it. So Eru would give the life and the form, but you get to choose what your life becomes. In two words: Free Will. You create your own life, you make your own choices, and even if your choices are affected by how you were raised, they still belong to you and nobody else can be blamed if you use your free will badly.

So Eru gave Feanor his form, and he gave him the capabilities to complete the 'sonnet', but it was Feanor himself, not Eru, who made the mistakes, created the masterpieces, and got really miffed at the bad guys. Eru may have 'made' him in the first place, but Feanor 'made' what he became. ie: Not Eru's doing.

Fea

[the phantom]

I firmly believe that there were ways in which the same good could have been acheived without the suffering inflicted along the way
The only way that could've happened is if the Valar and the Teleri wouldn't have hindered the Noldor, because like I showed earlier, at that point in the Silmarillion they had to get back to ME ASAP in order to bring about much of the good they accomplished.

What should've happened? Should the inflamed Noldor who had lost their king and treasure and were setting out with the righteous intention to battle Morgoth be expected to act differently? It was hardly possible. Plus Morgoth would've overrun the world if they wouldn't have returned.

It would have been so much easier for the Valar to just say, "Okay, you can go if you want." And since the elves had to be taken across the sea to Valinor with the aid of the Valar, the Valar should've provided some means of returning to ME.

Does it seem ridiculous to anyone else that the Valar weren't "hindering" the Noldor's march, yet they knew good and well that there wasn't any known way to leave (except by the ships of the Teleri, which they had under their thumb)? The Valar were willing to let the Noldor rebel because they didn't think they'd get anywhere (and the Sil even says that they didn't think Feanor could hold the Noldor to his will).

The Valar were really acting unwise in this whole ordeal. "Hey Olwe, the Noldor are going against our will, so what do you say when they ask to use your ships? Good boy. Okay Noldor, we won't hinder your purpose to leave Valinor... (snicker)... (Hey guys, I don't think there's really any way for them to leave anyway, hee hee)."

Well, I doubt they were actually laughing, but you get my point. What did the Valar expect to happen? I insist that this is one case where the Valar were completely unprepared and just totally bungled and mismanaged the whole situation.

Their actions and/or lack of actions caused Feanor to be left with no other way to complete his destiny other than the way he did it.

[Legolas]

I'm saying that the extreme potency of his spirit and his unmatched passion allowed his heart (which was good) to choose whatever course of action would have the best results.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

Does it seem ridiculous to anyone else that the Valar weren't "hindering" the Noldor's march, yet they knew good and well that there wasn't any known way to leave (except by the ships of the Teleri, which they had under their thumb)?

No, it doesn't seem ridiculous. There was a way to leave Aman and go to Middle-earth. Did you completely skip the bit where Fingolfin's company marched across Helcaraxë?

The prevention of the Kin-Slaying was not in the Valar's power to stop - they were not to intervene so directly, especially in matters not directly related to them (as none of their kind were involved, like the situations with Morgoth and Sauron).

And since the elves had to be taken across the sea to Valinor with the aid of the Valar, the Valar should've provided some means of returning to ME.

So if a taxi takes you downtown, it's his place to make sure you have transportation later? The Noldor weren't required to come to Valinor...they came of their own free will (and left it the same way). Whether or not the journey there was aided, the Valar had no obligation to take them back.

What should've happened?

Feanor's Noldor "should" have built their own ships, or marched on like Fingolfin's Noldor did, or stayed in Valinor. Anything that didn't bring death on innocent bystanders.

Should the inflamed Noldor who had lost their king and treasure and were setting out with the righteous intention to battle Morgoth be expected to act differently?

You could expect them to act "righteously" if they are on such a righteous task. Or maybe just "rationally." That would've worked.

Plus Morgoth would've overrun the world if they wouldn't have returned.

Obviously not. Eru's will would be done in the end no matter what. We have no basis to say what would've happened if the Noldor hadn't have gone back to Middle-earth. Morgoth would've been defeated one way or another. Probably not as soon as Feanor or the Noldor would've liked, but that's the way it goes.

You're fooling yourself. You can say "The Valar didn't stop the Noldor from killing the Teleri." You cannot say "It is the Valar's fault that the Noldor killed the Teleri."

It's not the Valar's fault that Feanor killed people.

[ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[the phantom]

There was a way to leave Aman and go to Middle-earth. Did you completely skip the bit where Fingolfin's company marched across Helcaraxë?
Oh, come on. That was hardly a realistic option. They didn't even know it was possible and when they tried it a bunch of them died. If you want to talk about how lives could be saved, the Noldor crossing the ice certainly wouldn't do that (and they wouldn't get back to Beleriand in time to save it from Morgoth's first invasion).
Whether or not the journey there was aided, the Valar had no obligation to take them back.
Yes, and if my friend gets drunk, I have no obligation to give him a ride, but I do because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own (even if it was his own stupid fault for getting drunk, but in Feanor's case, he was a bit "drunk" by no fault of his own but rather the slaying of his father, the rape of his treasure, and the lies of Morgoth).

So I guess I'm a more decent chap than the Valar.
Feanor's Noldor "should" have built their own ships, or marched on like Fingolfin's Noldor did, or stayed in Valinor.
And which one of these actions would have got the Noldor back to ME in time to save Beleriand? Umm...none of them.
Eru's will would be done in the end no matter what. We have no basis to say what would've happened if the Noldor hadn't have gone back to Middle-earth. Morgoth would've been defeated one way or another.
Well, I guess the last point doesn't mean anything if you honestly believe that whatever Eru wants to happen will happen no matter what. (I personally believe that things happen Eru's way, but that he inspires his creations to bring them about. They do the work.)

But if we use your theory that Eru makes everything happen the way it's supposed to no matter what, then no one should ever do anything.

The Valar should've never gone to war against Melkor because if it was Eru's will that Melkor be chained then it would happen anyway. The Valar should've never fortified their land because if it was in Eru's plan for them to be safe then they would be automatically. They should've never made the trees because if Eru wanted there to be light it would've happened.

Obviously that's all ridiculous. In order to bring those designs to life, action had to be taken. Eru only acts personally if absolutely necessary.

Was there any different action that Feanor and the Noldor could've taken to still bring about the exact good they accomplished? Not that I can see.

The Valar, on the other hand, could've done something to preserve the good the Noldor accomplished while at the same time preventing the kin slaying (they could've done that by just taking the Noldor to ME, same good accomplished, the bad part skipped).

In other words, Feanor accomplished the good he accomplished by the only means possible (unless the Valar were to help). The only way the good still happens without the bad is if the Valar assist the Noldor.

That is unless you use the philosophy that everything would happen right anyway, but I've already shown my justifiable disbelief in that notion.

I'm not asking anyone to call Feanor perfect or say the Valar are evil, but I'd just like everyone to admit that the way things happened left Feanor with little choice on courses to take to fulfill his mission, and that the Valar maybe should've seen the bad stuff coming and definitely could've made the whole situation a lot easier.

[Legolas]

Oh, come on. That was hardly a realistic option.

Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"? Would you murder your uncle to use his car to drive after a thief? If the thief was the Devil himself? Surely not.

If you want to talk about how lives could be saved, the Noldor crossing the ice certainly wouldn't do that (and they wouldn't get back to Beleriand in time to save it from Morgoth's first invasion).

But if the Noldor died crossing, it would be a loss they brought upon themselves. The Teleri were completely innocent and uninvolved. The Noldor chose to bring this upon their kindred - if any should suffer, it should be them.


Yes, and if my friend gets drunk, I have no obligation to give him a ride, but I do because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own (even if it was his own stupid fault for getting drunk, but in Feanor's case, he was a bit "drunk" by no fault of his own but rather the slaying of his father, the rape of his treasure, and the lies of Morgoth).
So I guess I'm a more decent chap than the Valar.

Completely wrong. You have set up a great example, especially with your statement "because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own": the Valar could clearly see the consequences of what could happen if the Noldor tried to fight Morgoth. You giving your friend a ride would be the same as the Valar not allowing the Noldor to go to Middle-earth. You care for your friend and know that driving drunk is certain danger, that he could die. Even more so did the Valar know the Noldor were marching towards certain death and tried to turn them away. It is only because of the Valar's intervention later that any Noldor survived (whether through Ulmo/Tuor or Manwe's forces in the War of Wrath). The Noldor still proceeding to leave Aman is like your friend attacking another friend, stealing his car keys, and taking his car for a spin, only to burn it and kill himself in a wreck. The Valar are you, or the parents, saying "Don't drink and drive," threatening to take away the keys, etc. Some people just don't listen.

And which one of these actions would have got the Noldor back to ME in time to save Beleriand? Umm...none of them.

Did the Noldor save Beleriand anyway? No. Did they have a chance? No. An emphatic no.

(I personally believe that things happen Eru's way, but that he inspires his creations to bring them about. They do the work.)

Tolkien is explicit about this. Whether or not a being is doing what Eru would prefer, he or she will still prove to be an instrument of him in the ultimate realization that good overcomes evil.

But if we use your theory that Eru makes everything happen the way it's supposed to no matter what, then no one should ever do anything.

That is entirely not what I said. You said Morgoth would've come to control the world if the Noldor had not have sailed to Middle-earth. That is a very far-fetched notion, and would not have happened while the Valar were still present in Arda (and they will be until it's end, so you have nothing to worry about).

Was there any different action that Feanor and the Noldor could've taken to still bring about the exact good they accomplished? Not that I can see.

Of course you can't see. You don't want to. There are endless possibilities, none of which we can forsee or hope to judge. We can only judge what did happen, and what the Noldor did was foolish and caused unnecessary grief.

I'd just like everyone to admit that the way things happened left Feanor with little choice on courses to take to fulfill his mission, and that the Valar maybe should've seen the bad stuff coming and definitely could've made the whole situation a lot easier.

Why did Feanor have to fulfill his mission in such a way? Why could he not listen to the Valar in the first place? Do you not think the Valar could've handled the situation? They obviously could (and did later on). Morgoth's strongholds would not have stood forever, and though we do not know exactly what course the Valar would've taken, it would've been more effective and thought-out than Feanor's. Feanor's courses were few - only two, that I see...patience or haste. He chose haste, the worse of the two. The Valar just would not resolve it as quickly or hastily as Feanor preferred. Taking it upon himself against the counsel of the Valar caused much unnecessary grief. He brought all that ensued upon himself. The Valar saw the bad stuff coming - that's why the Noldor weren't supposed to leave in the first place. The Noldor not only killed some of the Teleri, but were brutally killed themselves. It was only by the might of Thingol and the Sindar (and Men) that the Noldor lasted as long as they did.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Do you think the Valar could not have handled the situation? They obviously could (and did later on)

The War of Wrath only happened because Earendil managed to sail to Valinor and beg for help. The Valar would not have interfered unless Morgoth would have threatened Valinor.

Did the Noldor save Beleriand? No.

When Morgoth first attacked the Sindar, they were not able to protect themselves. Feanor burning the ships (like Phantom said) drew the attention of the orcs from Cirdan. However reprehensible that act was, it did turn out for the better.
If the Noldor would not have come, Beleriand would have been overrun. It's obvious.

[Legolas]

The War of Wrath only happened because Earendil managed to sail to Valinor and beg for help. The Valar would not have interfered unless Morgoth would have threatened Valinor.

That was the case because of the Noldor going to Beleriand. You have no idea what the Valar would've done in the event of the Noldor remaining in Valinor. The situation would've been dealt with - they would not have ignored it.

If the Noldor would not have come, Beleriand would have been overrun. It's obvious.

Beleriand was overrun anyway. Remember the part the Noldor lose?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"?

It's realistic, Legolas, it's just not all that nice. And you're right about the fact that we can only judge the actions that occured; how can we argue about how mere speculations as to different courses could have changed things? It should be at least a little obvious that simple actions can change the future in very complex ways. Example: Bilbo stumbled across a ring in the dark. Example: Melkor got a little creative in his singing. Example: Sam eavesdropped at Bag End. Example: Wormtongue threw a big rock at Gandalf/Saruman. My point: you can't judge what "might have" happened, because it's impossible to know.

That probably didn't make much sense, so if you're confused, just ignore me. Cheers,

Fea

PS- Congratulations me on my 100th post!

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Feanor of the Peredhil ]

[Novnarwen]

Hmmm.... This is an interesting thread...

As Legolas said:
Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"? Would you murder your uncle to use his car to drive after a thief? If the thief was the Devil himself? Surely not.



Feanor was a bad man... He was self important in a way. I feel he was kind of obsessed. He wanted to be the best.

And I don't see why he wasn't willing to give the Silmarills to Yavanna. If Feanor had said yes to give them to her, he would do something for all of them, in Beleriand and Middle-earth. Not just himself. (I know Morgoth took them at that time, but Feanor didn't know that. I hope that made sense) That was soooo stupid off him.

And go killing his friends for boats?? What was that dude thinking? (Am I sensing some boat obsession too?) And I think the worst of all is: that he burns the ships. Fingolfin was nice to him. I think that Fingolfin actually respected him. And that was a huge deal. After all, Feanor had never been nice to Fingolfin.

Feanor had no moral, that's why I think he is self-important. He really doesn't care about others. Just his treasures...

I am not sure anything of this made sense... Just feels good to express my "hatred" against Feanor... smilies/wink.gif

*Nova, the Feanor "hater".. hehe

(Okey then, I do not hate him, he just annoys me..)

[Legolas]

It's realistic, Legolas, it's just not all that nice. And you're right about the fact that we can only judge the actions that occured; how can we argue about how mere speculations as to different courses could have changed things?

If so, crossing the Grinding Ice was a more realistic and more integral option. Killing kindred because they were unwilling to help (and for good reason) should not be even considered as an option. The possibility is certainly there, but that's as far as it should've been "developed" (thus remaining undeveloped).

Feanor's sort of self-obsessed, do-what-I-want-no-matter-who-else-suffers approach cannot be excused or simply cast off as understandable.

Another point to ponder: put Feanor and his Noldorin camp in Olwe's shoes. Would he have allowed Olwe's Teleri to take his own boats across the ocean? Surely not. He probably would not have responded as calmly as Olwe did. He might have allowed them to do so if they bribed him enough. Olwe and Finarfin really prove to be the wisest here.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post (about a simple/single action's great importance). It is exactly because of that that we cannot see much of what would've happened without Feanor's rebellion and kin-slaying.

What we can presume is that the situation would've been handled. No one can say that "No Feanor's rebellion = Beleriand falls, Morgoth takes over all of Middle-earth." It's not like that the only thing that could've happened - in the event of no rebellion, it's not like everyone would've sat around in Valinor and danced/sang/drank merrily until Morgoth took over the rest of the world.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lord of Angmar]

I think we all agree that nobody can really know the mind of Feanor or his reasoning at the time of the Kinslaying. Was it a reasonable reaction to Olwe's decline? No. Was Olwe in the right in refusing him the ships? This is the biggest question to be debated, but strong arguments can be made for both sides. As for me, I believe that Olwe should have felt no bond to lend or give the ships of his people to Feanor. Beyond the simple facts of the Kinslaying, it can only be debated how things may have come out differently, but certainly there is NEVER justification for slaughtering your own kin.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Actually Fëanor's rashness provided a solution for the otherwise impossible dilemma in which the Valar found themselves. The following quote is from the "Myths Transformed" section of HoME X: Morgoth's Ring
...Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original "angelic" powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip on the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was the probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated, Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring...the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Fëanor, somewhat unwittingly, provides the solution to this problem:
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm....[at the time of the War of Wrath] Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind...he had fallen to like being a tyrant king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies. But what would have happened if Fëanor had listened to "reason" and not left Valinor without Manwë's permission? What exactly was Manwë's preferred course of action for dealing with Morgoth, who after all "had to be fought"? If the previous experience of the attack on Utumno after the awakening of the elves is any guide, it probably would have been to delay any action far longer than would have been prudent: Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.
-Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
I think the same situation applies in this case. Morgoth was, as others have pointed out in this thread, about to completely conquer Beleriand when the Fëanorians showed up and chased him back to Angband for the next 450 years. Perhaps having Fëanor be the way he was, was in part Eru's way of ensuring that Melkor/Morgoth would be dealt with in a timely manner the second time around. Note that Fëanor´s rebuke to Manwë's herald is very similar in its criticism of Manwë's overly...uh... pensive approach: Say this to Manwë Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me.
Note that when Manwë hears of Fëanor´s rebuke to Namo, he takes the philosophical approach and expresses his hope that some good, or at least some good songs and poetry, will come out of all this...(sigh)

But, Fëanor should just have crossed the Helcaraxë.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[the phantom]

Hill Troll, you went and quoted two of the very things I was searching for this evening. smilies/mad.gif

But that's okay, you made the point better than I could've.
Perhaps having Fëanor be the way he was, was in part Eru's way of forcing the Valar to deal with the issue of Morgoth in a timely manner the second time around.
Yes. That's what I've been trying to say. Feanor was created for a certain specific and high purpose, and was given such a nature that he could not possibly deny his destiny (nor delay it, since delay was exactly what his purpose was to avoid).
Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier
Yes. That wonderfully proves my point about the Valar not always having the best answer or approach. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that Feanor's approach is better than theirs and that the Valar should have "followed him" (as he spoke to the herald).
Say this to Manwë Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me.
It was this statement by Feanor (and the reaction it got from the herald of the Valar) that really convinced me that Eru had to be behind the Feanor led exodus. It's such an amazingly powerful statement, and Feanor delivered it with such fire that the herald "bowed before him as one full answered". When I read that, I knew that Feanor was fulfilling some high purpose and that the Valar were making the wrong call on this issue.

Feanor had to do a certain deed for the good of the world, but how this deed could be accomplished was left up to the Valar. They chose to limit the paths he could follow to a single bloody road leading to his goal, so he took it. There's the one place that I disagree with you, Hill Troll. It would've taken too long to cross the Helcaraxe. He wouldn't have been back in time to destroy Morgoth's invasion force before it laid ruin to all of Beleriand (except Doriath). And who knows, if you give Morgoth a few extra days or extra weeks with absolutely no opposition, maybe he personally goes out to battle alongside Sauron, his Balrogs, and all his armies and they even break Doriath.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*Nova, the Feanor "hater".. hehe

Ouch.

I'm honored that my longest running thread has become so popular, but I have one request:

It doesn't matter whether you like Feanor or not, let's try to keep Feanor-bashing to a bare minimum. We all know that he did some stupid stuff, but try to keep to the original topic: was he a fat-head, and what made him that way. Not just "he shouldn't have" or "it's all Feanor's fault" type stuff. Thanks,

Fea

[Finwe]

A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true. The reason they brought the Elves over to Aman in the first place was that they wanted to protect them from Morgoth. They assumed that the Elves were like their children, and needed protection and care.

During the Rebellion of the Noldor, it could be said that the Elves hit adolescence, or at least the Noldor did. All adolescents try to rebel against their parents/guardians in some way or the other, and that was exactly what the Noldor did.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true.

Yes, a lot of people, including Tolkien smilies/wink.gif

If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.
Osanwe-kenta

[Angry Hill Troll]

Yes, a lot of people, including Tolkien
Amarië, it think that partly depends on how one interprets "blame". If one means that Manwë is "blameless" because he has not knowingly done anything wrong, that is certainly true. He does, however, make mistakes (albeit honest ones) and does have significant limitations: [after the War of the Powers, Melkor] actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders...But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers to become 'the least of the Valar'...It is this offer which seduces or deludes Manwë--Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin [Footnote: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it--with the conscious intent of serving Eru.]): [Manwë] has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he grants Melkor's prayer.

Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Part of Manwë's limitation seems to be that he is free from evil. Normally that's a good thing, but in Manwë's case it is to the point that he is incapable of understanding evil, or the actions or motivations of any evil being. Gandalf seems to have a much better grasp of this concept. He is capable of understanding Sauron's behavior and likely course of action, but does not condone it or fall into temptation. Granted, he did have the opportunity to learn first-hand from Manwë's previous experiences.

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Angry Troll, I agree with you. Of course I am not saying that the Valar are perfect and never made mistakes. Yet, as you called them, they were 'honest mistakes' smilies/wink.gif
As Christ said, the chidren of this world are wiser than the children of light smilies/frown.gif

About your comparison between Manwë and Gandalf, the answer is in the quote you posted in this thread some days ago smilies/wink.gif :

Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's
Myths Transformed; HoME 10, 'Morgoth's Ring'

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As I was flipping through all my old threads (there aren't many, so it went fast), I started to reread this one, and my brother pointed out one of the less obvious possible meanings of the quote I used. Here is my original thread-starting post, to make it easier:

I searched, and found no topics where my question was answered, although I may have over-looked something.

In Chapter 9 (Of the Flight of the Noldor) of the Silm, Feanor "cries bitterly" the following:

"...It may be that I can unlock my
jewels, but never again shall I make
their like; and if I must break them,
I shall break my heart, and I shall
be slain;first of all the Eldar in
Aman"

I am thoroughly confused as to precisely what Feanor means by the statement 'first'. To me, he could mean a number of things, two of which being:

1) that he would be the first to be slain
2) that he considers himself to be the first (best/highest) of the Eldar in Aman

And then Mandos says "Not the first." which could be him pointing out that he's not the first in Aman to die, or Mandos pointing out that Feanor is not the first of the Eldar.

I beg of you all, help me! I hate being confused and reading the Silm for the first time has got me a little messed up.

Fea
Here is my reason for bringing this ancient thread back to life:

By "First of all the Eldar in Aman", is it possible that Feanor is not implying self-importance at all, but rather that he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman? Meaning... he is simply stating the obvious. He's... punctual. Always the first to do anything, whether setting foot on new land or making jewels of unsurpassed beauty.

My brother says he's the type of Elf who would shove other Elves out of the way just so he could be the first to set foot in Aman. I say my brother is a fool.

Fea

[akhtene]

he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman
This couldn't be, as Feanor wasn't among the ambassadors invited by the Valar (his father Finwé was). Feanor was born in Tirion.

Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that. :rolleyes:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My problem with the Silm is that I read it front to back last summer, and have been reduced to flipping through it occasionally since then. I don't own the book [yet], and usually it takes me a few days after I need it to actually get a hold of it. My question was more along the lines of "Could it be that we were jumping to conclusions about Feanor's arrogance, and that he was simply stating the obvious and we overthought it?"

Fea

[the phantom]

Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that.
I'm at school so I don't have my books, but I remember reading in HoME that Tolkien wanted Feanor to be the first-born of the Eldar. All the older Elves (Finwe, Elwe, etc.) were never born, they just woke up. Tolkien thought that the significance of being the first naturally born Child of Eru in the world would perhaps partly explain his ridiculous potency.

In one of his drafts Feanor was actually born in ME and his mother died by falling off a cliff while the Elves were passing through the Misty Mountains (on their way to Valinor). But Tolkien didn't keep this of course and had Feanor born after the journey's end. I can't remember if the idea of Feanor being the first born stayed intact through this change in the story.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Welcome back to the thread, my phan-tasmic friend. I'd never heard this about Feanor's birth. Which volume of HoME is it in? Although that question is somewhat meaningless, as I [very ashamedly] will admit to not having read any of HoME. But I do plan on ordering them through my local library once I have some free time again...

Fea

[the phantom]

Which volume of HoME is it in?
It is in Volume X (Morgoth's Ring).
Although that question is somewhat meaningless, as I [very ashamedly] will admit to not having read any of HoME. But I do plan on ordering them through my local library once I have some free time again...
Well, if you manage to find the time (I never knew a teenage artist's schedule was so cramped) then you should read Volume X. It's definitely the best one (in my sometimes almost humble opinion).

But I'll give you a taste of the book real quick here. Tolkien wrote this at one time but crossed it out-
Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe bore him a son, eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar.
This was right before they crossed the Misty Mts (and you'll notice the name Indis was used instead of Miriel).

And then Chris Tolkien wrote this a bit later-
The two passages concerning Indis wife of Finwe...are notable as the first indications of what would become a major further development in the Valinorian legend, though the stories told here bear no relation to the later narrative. These briefly sketched ideas may have been merely passing, rejected as soon as jotted down; but they show my father's concern with Feanor, feeling that the greatness of his powers and formidable nature were related to a singularity of origin- he was the first-born of the Eldar: that is to say, he did not 'waken' by Kuivienen, but had a father and mother, and was born in Middle-Earth.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Well, if you manage to find the time (I never knew a teenage artist's schedule was so cramped) then you should read Volume X.
1) The Book: will do. It involves some special ordering and an unguessable wait in time, but I'll get it and read it some time soon.

2) The Schedule: You'd be surprised. You've got to keep in mind that this is an over-achieving teenage artist, about to start her senior year, who's dead exhausted and still hasn't managed to get her room cleaned (I've seriously been trying for over a week, but things keep coming up!).

I can't remember if the idea of Feanor being the first born stayed intact through this change in the story.
I'll assume that your memory is still foggy on this subject, but does anyone else know if Feanor retained his firstborn status in later versions?

Fea

[the phantom]

The Book: will do. It involves some special ordering and an unguessable wait in time
So, I guess there's not a Borders (or another similar bookstore) anyplace close to you? That's too bad. Send me enough money and I'll mail you my copy and just buy myself a new one tomorrow. :p
You've got to keep in mind that this is an over-achieving teenage artist, about to start her senior year, who's dead exhausted and still hasn't managed to get her room cleaned
Hee hee. My room doesn't get cleaned once football season starts. :p

And looking back, I've determined that I had more free time my senior year than any other year (well, except when I was four years old). Once you take your ACT/SAT all the work is over (if you scored well, that is). Then you can stop doing homework and let your grades take a plunge cause they don't care as long as you tested high and passed your senior classes.

Than again, I was a slacker (definition: figured out how to get a little work to go a long way, now a days corporations call this practice "working smarter, not harder"). I suppose if you're an "over-achieving" sort of person then you're going to be short of Tolkien time your entire life. Poor thing. :D
but does anyone else know if Feanor retained his firstborn status in later versions?
Sounds like a job for Maedhros, or one of the other Revised-Silmarillion people.

[Maédhros]

I'll assume that your memory is still foggy on this subject, but does anyone else know if Fëanor retained his firstborn status in later versions?

I'm not sure what do you mean. In some of the earliest versions, Fëanor was not the first but second son of Finwë. He was at first the son of Bruithwir.
In the later versions, he is the first son of Finwë and Míriel and he is born in Valinor.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So, I guess there's not a Borders (or another similar bookstore) anyplace close to you?
Phantom, I live in the middle of nowhere. Not really, but the closest bookstore to me is a college one (one of my favorites, but I don't get to go there much) and that's at least 15 minutes in a direction that nobody I ride with ever goes in, and that I don't think carries Tolkien's work beyond the basics (Hobbit, LotR, Silm, and some general M.E. guides). The one bookstore around here that I'm generally certain has got it is just over 20 minutes away, in the opposite direction from the college one.

Once you take your ACT/SAT all the work is over (if you scored well, that is). Then you can stop doing homework and let your grades take a plunge cause they don't care as long as you tested high and passed your senior classes.
SATs are over and done with, with good enough scores that I can brag to any potential grandkids I might end up with ;) , but no slacking off until I ship out college applications. After that? Calculus gets dropped (my counselor was being a jerk and managed to out-reason me on dropping it when I chatted with him Wednesday).

I'm not sure what do you mean.

As you say, Feanor was the first son of Finwe and Miriel. The Phantom also mentioned that Feanor was at one point (?) the FIRST of all the Children of Illuvatar to be born, as opposed to waking up. First conceived, first born, he was the first of the Elves in that sense. He was the oldest of his generation. My question is, did that (his being first of the generation) carry over to the most recent texts?

Fea

[the phantom]

In the later versions, he is the first son of Finwë and Míriel and he is born in Valinor.
Yes, but we would like to know if the later versions say anything about him being the first of the entire second generation (as Tolkien said at one time in the Annals of Aman).

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, but we would like to know if the later versions say anything about him being the first of the entire second generation (as Tolkien said at one time in the Annals of Aman).But if this interpretation of the line in question is correct, what are we to make of Mandos' response: "Not the first"?

[the phantom]

But if this interpretation of the line in question is correct, what are we to make of Mandos' response: "Not the first"?
Well, that's not a question for me to answer because I personally don't think Feanor meant that when he called himself the first. Someone else brought up the idea and I just gave 'em some book quotes.

My primary concern with the timing of Feanor's birth is this- did the idea of him being the first-born Elf make it to any later versions or was it refuted- or neglected perhaps?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

But if this interpretation of the line in question is correct, what are we to make of Mandos' response: "Not the first"?
Which is why we must first find out if it is a correct interpretation, aye?

Fea

[the phantom]

You know, SP, even though I don't agree with the interpretation I'll try to answer your question anyway.

When Mandos says "Not the first" it means "I don't know what I am talking about." I mean, if Feanor is the first but Mandos says he isn't, Mandos is in error, right? I guess he has Feanor's birthday marked wrong in his datebook. That's probably why, after Mandos says his line, the book says-
but they did not understand his word
Because he had his dates mixed up. :p

Yet another illustration of the Valar being wrong. Yes! Maybe I should buy into this interpretation after all. :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Would it not be incredibly amusing if, by Mandos saying "not the first", it was Tolkien making a subtle reference to the fact that he had changed birth orders around a little, but the characters had yet to be informed (with the exception, of course, of Mandos)?

Fea

[Voralphion]

With regards to Feanor's quote, he meant that he would be the first of the eldar to be slain in Aman. Mandos' reply then refered to the fact that Finwe had already at that point been slain, but of course that was yet unknown by the others present. An earlier version of that passage had Feanor saying,"Then I will die; first of all the eldar in Aman" but this was changed because it was well known that Miriel had already died.
I believe in HoME X Morgoth's Ring when the earlier version of the story is given, it says the quote refers to being slain not anything else.

[the phantom]

With regards to Feanor's quote, he meant that he would be the first of the eldar to be slain in Aman. Mandos' reply then refered to the fact that Finwe had already at that point been slain
Of course. I think about everyone here (I know I do) thinks this is the correct interpretation.

However, what we're trying to do is toss out the obvious and try something not so obvious- and see if we can somehow justify it. We're just having some fun.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Exactly phantom. I am generally certain that Feanor and Mandos spoke of being slain, but this is more of a "What if we are over-thinking this entirely?" sort of a question being posed. In the RW, "What if?" is the most dangerous question there is, however it is safe in reference to literature. So... what if we were wrong? What if it meant something different. What if people are misjudging Feanor, simply because they misunderstood what he was saying? What if he wasn't an arrogant berk, but was simply Captain Obvious? You see my point?

Fea

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*nudge*

I'd like to see if anybody has new ideas there are new faces about these days.

[mormegil]

Feanor,

I don’t' know exactly what you are looking for but I will give you my opinion of Feanor though it is probably fairly well known.

I find him extremely haughty and arrogant. It is rather well known that Feanor was probably the greatest of all elves. Now this to me has always meant that he had great power, knowledge, skill and influence. He has a major underlying character flaw that proves to be his undoing. The greatest problem with Feanor is that due to his stature he brought down many associated with him.

His statement that you initially questioned simply illustrates his extreme self-absorption.

There has been much talk about the kin slaying and I'm not sure I want to reopen that can of worms but I feel that blame belongs to those who initiated it, and in my eyes that is Feanor. How can we blame Manwe for that? He thought he did what would be best for the elves and invited them to live in Valinor. There was no obligation for them to accept and many did not. Therefore they did not hinder their departure but thinking that the departure was in folly they did not aid it.

Now again Feanor had great influence and knowledge, but he was too egotistical to allow that to help other people and to better society. Everything he did was for self-promotion and didn't really care much about anybody else.

I have other things to speak about but I feel that this will spark some conversation in this thread. I do not wish, however, for what I am saying to be viewed as Feanor-bashing but I truly believe him an integral character but reprehensible.

[Aiwendil]

Everything he did was for self-promotion and didn't really care much about anybody else.

I don't want to enter into a blame Feanor/forgive Feanor debate (which I think is a highly subjective thing), but I don't think it's quite correct to say that he didn't care much about anybody but himself. While I agree that he was self-centered, he did at least care very much for his father and for his sons. Cf. his reaction when he learns that Finwe is dead (and I believe there is a comment from the narrator here emphasizing Feanor's love for his father) as well as the story in HoMe XII where he accidentally kills his youngest son - the latter is the only case I can think of where Feanor shows remorse or regret for one of his own actions.

[Gurthang]

There has been much talk about the kin slaying and I'm not sure I want to reopen that can of worms but I feel that blame belongs to those who initiated it, and in my eyes that is Feanor.
True.

From the Slimarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor
Thereupon Feanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualonde, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force.


I don't think it's quite correct to say that he didn't care much about anybody but himself.
Mostly true.

From the Slimarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor
Then Feanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
But,

From the Slimarillion; Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.

[the phantom]

Most of the Feanor debate is open for opinions and everyone can support their side somewhat, but there is one point you made that is not supportable at all.
...didn't really care much about anybody else
Not true. From the Silmarillion-
Then Feanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
People try and dehumanize Feanor because it makes it easier to hate him.

Don't do that.

[mormegil]

People try and dehumanize Feanor because it makes it easier to hate him.

Don't do that.

I agree that my words were a bit rash but the idea remains intact still. His primary focus in life was self, more so than even the most arrogant. To essential leave your wife because she is no longer of use to your work is awful. I think his love for his dad was great and for his sons too, but for his sons it was a bit twisted in having them swear the oath with him they brought much pain and suffering to them. Again he loved his sons but because of his self-importance they followed him through pain and sorrow that didn't necessarily need be.

[Formendacil]

I don't want to enter into a blame Feanor/forgive Feanor debate (which I think is a highly subjective thing),

Wouldn't such a debate be rather ridiculous? In order for Feanor to require for forgiveness, he must first be responsible for having done wrong (ie. be blamed).

A very minor point, mainly pointed out for its amusement factor. :p

[Aiwendil]

Well, you can play semantic games with "forgive", "excuse", "blame", and so on. It all depends on how you want to formally define the terms, which is arbitrary. But in ordinary discourse, they are vague and can take on a number of subtly different meanings.

[Felagund]

So, this comes to mind... were the Noldor not the slavation of Men? Imagine had they never sailed out of Aman, that Fëanor had been placated, everyone went back to their peaceful little existence in Tirion upon Tuna, or the slopes of Taniquetil, or on the shores of the Bay of Eldamar... then what of Men?

They would not have been exposed to the Eldar in Middle-Earth, merely the Sindar and the Nandor, and would not have probably become as noble as they did. And that's the least of it... They obviously would have been subjugated by Morgoth. Unquestionably. You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have. Even the Sindar, who were next in line in power and wisdom to the Eldar were left to what would have been their eventual doom.

And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh?

So, now let us look at the results of Fëanor's "rebellion" (which was obviously divinely inspired). The Noldor arrive in Middle-Earth, and sap the power of Morgoth (and themselves, but that's not the issue), and occupy his attentions, so that he has not time to utterly corrupt the houses of Men migrating westwards. The three houses of the Edain meet the Noldor in Beleriand, and join the fight against Morgoth. The also receive some of the power and wisdom that the Noldor have to give, and, though almost utterly destroyed in the War of the Jewels, ultimately survive to found Numenor. Then they come to Middle-Earth, and free it from the domination of Sauron. Twice (one time helped by midgets, but whatever).

Now, that's looking rather far afield, but without Fëanor's rebellion...
a) the story would not be allowed to unfold in the way it did
b) Valinor would have been conquered by Morgoth, after he had sufficiently gathered enough strength and sorcery to overcome the combined might of the Valar (which he would have enough time to do, without being occupied with a costly war against semi-divine, pointy-eared beings).
Thoughts? I spent alot of time hewing caves in silence thinking about this one.



"Their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures they have sworn to pursue."

[Gurthang]

And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh?

Getting right down to it, an assault on Valinor did happen. Except it was not during Morgoth's time. The Numenoreans, led by Ar-Pharazon, were corrupted by Sauron and enticed to make war on Valinor. They set sail to assault the Undying Lands, and would have caused great havoc, had they been challenged on the shore. Here's what happened.

From Akallabeth
But pride was now [Ar-Pharazon's] master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore, claiming the land for his own, if none should do battle for it. And a host of the Numenoreans encamped in might about Tuna, whence all the Eldar had fled.

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the Numenoreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

So really Feanor has little to do with whether or not Valinor is assaulted.

But you do make a good point about him 'saving' Men from Morgoth. Without the Noldor to keep Morgoth at bay, he would have overrun Middle-Earth and all Men would have either been under him or destroyed for rebelling. The Dwarves also would likely have been destroyed, too, although it would have taken much more time. They had already been in Middle-Earth for some time, and had significant fortresses and cities. They would have held out much longer than Men.

[mormegil]

You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have.

What evidence or proof do we have of this? Are you saying that the Valar cared little or nothing of the Edain? Feanor putting his little plan into action more than likely changed the course of thought of the Valar and they couldn't not aid them and stated so

No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you' for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Feanor Finwe's son, by thine oath are exiled. The lies of Melkor thoug shalt unlearn in bitterness.

Men came to the aid of the Noldor and thereby were unable to receive the aid of the Valar in that quest. Had Feanor never embarked on such a futile quest, who knows what the Valar would have done in their councils. Did they not come in the end and did they not once before defeat Melkor for the benefit of one of Eru's children, why not then the second born? To say the Valar would not aid the Edain is a bit specious and not in harmony with the greatness of spirit of the Valar.

[Anguirel]

What evidence or proof do we have of this? Are you saying that the Valar cared little or nothing of the Edain?

That's about the size of it. The Valar treated the coming of Men like a dirty secret, hiding it from the Firstborn so that they could stay in their pretty isolationist bubble with their equally pretty Elves. They helped only when the Eldar and Edain were wellnigh destroyed, even then with a display of might that was intended to awe Elves and Men into submission, destroying the lands the Noldor, Sindar and Edain had nurtured.

To say the Valar would not aid the Edain is a bit specious and not in harmony with the greatness of spirit of the Valar.

When do we see this greatness of spirit? No redress was offered to Feanor for the fact that a prisoner the Valar had released killed his father. The Teleri were set against a departure that the Noldor had to make as a result. No aid was given to the Noldor who crossed the Helcaraxe, almost all of whom were innocent of Telerin blood. The Valar gave little help in the wars against Morgoth, with the single honourable exception of Ulmo; by doing this they allowed the Edain to suffer. Without the intervention of Eru they would have separated Beren and Luthien. They refused and drowned the mariners who sailed with Voronwe. And so it goes on.

[The Saucepan Man]

The question for me is whether the departure of the Noldor from Valinor necessarily required the crimes which Feanor was undoubtedly guilty of to be committed.

I think not.

Admittedly, it was Feanor's strength of will and fiery spirit which sparked the impulse to leave. But is it not possible that the same result (in terms of saving the Edain from the clutches of Morgoth) could have been achieved with less grief and anguish had Feanor tempered his impulsiveness with a touch of humility? Perhaps, had he not spoken in such forthright and angry terms, the Valar would have permitted the Noldor to depart and sanctioned the use of Teleri ships for that purpose.

And, even if not, was the burning of the ships (Feanor's greatest crime, in my opinion) really necessary? It was Feanor's arrogance and self-importance which led him to order that this deed be done, thus precipitating great suffering and loss among the following Noldorin host.

[mormegil]

When do we see this greatness of spirit?

A couple of things come to my mind instantly with that question. These were they who were willing to leave the presence of Illuvatar and come down to help set in order the arrival of his children.

The fact that they had belief in Melkor to set him free shows not ignorance but greatness of spirit. Believing that any could be given a second chance and reform.

As far as redress to Feanor, it was not they who committed the act so what redress do you mean. Also if you remember Feanor didn't give them much time to even think about that before he went and swore his little oath.

The Teleri were set against a departure that the Noldor had to make as a result.

The Noldor didn't have to make any such departure. Feanor and his sons did due to their oath but Finarfin and his host did not make such a depature. And as I already quoted the Valar told the Noldor before they went away that they would receive no aid from them in this quest. So the host that crossed the Helcaraxe were going forward to still be part of Feanor's overall quest.

Without the intervention of Eru they would have separated Beren and Luthien.

This is a rather false claim. As we know Luthien sung before Mandos who was moved to pity and it is written:

But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Illuvatar. He went therefore to Manwe, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Illuvatar; and Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Illuvatar was revealed.

It was through the Valar that Beren and Luthien's fate was able to be decided. They needed further insight and revelation. Again the greatness of their spirit is shown here; they knew that they didn't know all and were humble enough to ask.

All of this talk of Manwe being inept is rather ludicrious as this quote shows. Manwe was, by appointment from Eru, governor of all the land. So it comes to my mind that while not perfect, Eru trusted him to lead and maybe Feanor should have as well. If anybody had the right or position to know Eru's will is was Manwe and not Feanor.

Edit: Cross posted with SpM and I agree with what you said completely.

[Formendacil]

As regards the Valar coming to the aid of the Edain...

I wouldn't be so certain that they wouldn't have gone to war. They went to war against Melkor when the coming of the Elves was imminent, for their sake, despite being rather slothful and inward-looking in Valinor before that.

Personally, I think that had the Noldor not marched off to Middle-Earth, the Valar would eventually have shaken off the cobwebs of feat (no doubt prompted by Ulmo and Tulkas), and made war for the benefit of Men, who would now have awakened, so that there would no longer be a fear of hurting the unborn Men in their resting place.

Furthermore, the situation as it would have been in Middle-Earth at the time of Man's awakening had the Noldor not come to Middle-Earth would have been extremely similar to the situation there after the fall of the Elf-Kingdoms in Beleriand, and the extermination of the Elves at the hands of each other in the 3rd Kinslaying.

It might not have been Earendil's plea which stirred them, but I think the Valar would have had to come back to war eventually. And with no Ban or Curse on the Noldor, they would not have had their pride to urge them to stay at home, but rather to urge them on.

[the phantom]

Personally, I think that had the Noldor not marched off to Middle-Earth, the Valar would eventually have shaken off the cobwebs
but I think the Valar would have had to come back to war eventually
I notice, Formendacil, that you used "eventually" in both of those statements. Yes- "eventually" is the key word when it comes to the Valar.

But the problem- the way things stood in the world at the time of Feanor's rebellion, "eventually" was not good enough. That's why the rebellion of the Noldor had to happen.

I've made this point elsewhere, but I'll make it again.

Beleriand was about five seconds from being completely overthrown when Feanor landed on the coast. It was actually the burning of the ships that got the attention of Morgoth's armies and kept them from finishing off their opponents. They rushed to attack Feanor, and he and his followers promptly shredded Morgoth's army.

Feanor was barely in time to save Beleriand. If he wouldn't have come when he did and burn the ships then what happens? Here's what- Morgoth overthrows Beleriand, and then he goes east with his armies and wipes out the extremely defenseless dark elves as well as the race of men.

I agree that the Valar would have "eventually" attacked Morgoth, but "eventually" would've been too late.

Eru was not happy with them for waiting so long to attack Morgoth the first time. This HoME quote was used earlier in the thread, but here it is again-
Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel
The Valar had a history of waiting too long.

The solution- the Noldor!

Tolkien even said this-
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.
The Noldor were meant to fight Morgoth.

Not only that, but they had to get to Middle-Earth to fight him as soon as they possibly could, because Morgoth was a short inch from overrunning it.

How do you get there quickly without the Teleri's boats?

Answer- you don't.

And so, we have three possible paths.

1) The Teleri lend the Noldor their boats, or ferry them to Middle-Earth. Result- The world is saved.

2) The Teleri don't allow the Noldor to use their boats. Feanor tries to take them and fighting ensues. The Noldor get the boats. Result- The world is saved, but the Noldor and Feanor are forever vilified in the minds of readers everywhere.

3) The Teleri don't allow the Noldor to use their boats. Feanor is too nice to take them by force. Result- Morgoth takes over Middle-Earth and wipes out the race of Man.

Option three results in the good guys losing, so we can toss that one out as a possibility. The only remaining options are 2, the way it happened, and 1, the way it should've happened.

So, as you can see, the choice for how events were going to unfold was completely tied to whether or not Olwe said "yes" to Feanor.

He said "no". And why did he say no? The Silmarillion says Olwe refused because it was "against the will of the Valar".

And so, it is now plain to see that the kinslaying was set in motion the moment the Valar made known that they didn't want the Noldor to leave, and was inevitable once Olwe decided to adhere strictly to the wishes of the Valar.

There are plenty of other points that could be made, but I think this one is a very interesting one. What does it mean? Could the Valar have been expected to do something different? What about Olwe? Or was the bloody exodus of the Noldor unavoidable the moment the Valar released Melkor amongst the elves?

[davem]

Could the Valar have been expected to do something different? What about Olwe? Or was the bloody exodus of the Noldor unavoidable the moment the Valar released Melkor amongst the elves?

In The Ainulindale we're told that Men have 'the freedom to act beyond the Music, which is as Fate to all things else' - which begs the question of exactly how much freedom of action Valar, Elves & Melkor actually have. If we take Ainulindale literally it would seem that everything they do is fated to happen. I've discussed this before, so I don't want to go into detail, but its entirely possible that the Noldor had to go to Middle-earth, & their only 'freedom' was in how that came about. Feanor could have chosen to go along with the Valar's wishes & offered them the Silmarils to save the Trees, but asked permission to pursue Morgoth to either defeat him in battle or at least keep him at bay. Manwe could then have consulted with Eru, gained his permission for Feanor to lead the Noldor East, etc, etc.

Hence, the events foredoomed by the Music happen, but in a diferent way, because, while the Music is as fate to all but Men in terms of what happens, it doesn't determine the individual moral choices made by Elves & Valar.

Its entirely possible that Feanor, & the Elves generally felt a kind of unconscious drive to act out the Music (or their part in it) but were havig to 'make' themselves do it, come up with reasons - I wake up with this urge to go to London, but don't know why. I can't shake the urge. I must go. I do, however, have the freedom to choose whether I draw the money for the ticket from my bank account, mug some little old lady to get it, hitchhike there, steal a car, etc. Lots of choices, & my freewill plays a major part inhow I get there. The only thing is I don't have a choice in whether or not I go to London. There will be all kinds of consequences for me personally dependent on how I choose to get to my destination, & I will be judged on how I did it & held accountable for my actions.

[the phantom]

Good stuff, Davem.

I have a question though.
There will be all kinds of consequences for me personally dependent on how I choose to get to my destination, & I will be judged on how I did it & held accountable for my actions.
What if the only way for you to get to London in time is to steal your friend's car?

Who is to blame then?

You, for doing what must be done, your friend for not willingly giving you a ride, or your parents who disapprove of you going to London which encourages your friend not to help you?

Can you place any immediate blame in such a situation, or do you have to trace the entire story back a ways to find where things went wrong?

I think, in the case of the kinslaying, the events were set in motion well before it happened, and it couldn't be expected not to happen once a certain point was reached.

The Noldor have to get to Middle-Earth quickly. The only way to do so was to go on the Teleri's boats. The Teleri wouldn't let their boats be used, so the only path left was to try and take them. The Teleri tried to stop the Noldor, which of course resulted in a fight. The fight led to weapons being wielded.

It was an unstoppable chain reaction. Where did it all start?

Surely we must judge the actions that originally sent things down the wrong course, and not the actions that were an inevitable result.

Would you agree?

[mormegil]

Surely we must judge the actions that originally sent things down the wrong course, and not the actions that were an inevitable result.


If this is our metric then Feanor's actions and oath were the catalyst to such events. Morgoth's slaying of Finwe would not be however, because Feanor could have choosen a different course of action to get to Middle-earth then he did. Had he not been so rash and taken council with the Valar there may have been a way for him to arrive at Middle-earth in time to help save Beleriand, though that was not his purpose in setting out; and truthfully it never became his purpose.

I feel Saucepan stated it well in his previous post so I will not repeat that.

But what I don't understand phantom, is by your logic the means to an end is justifiable so long as the end is accomplished. By that logic Saruman was well within his rights to join with Sauron, because his was the responsibility of ordering Middle-earth and this could be accomplished by joining forces. This is not a great example but my point is just because something might need to be accomplished or the individual feels that it needs to be done doesn't give them license to commit any act that will help them accomplish that. Feanor took away the rights of the Teleri and stole their property, that's a crime and not justifiable because his actions we not done in rightousness. Now there might be times when stealing a car is needed but not because one feels he needs to go to London that day. Similar to Feanor it wasn't justifiable because the refusal to let him borrow their ships came about as a result of his unrighteous actions.

[Formendacil]

I think that you place to much emphasis, Master Phantom, on the Noldor having saved Middle-Earth.

While it is true that they did, we have no way of knowing what would have happened if they hadn't. Like any "alternate history", we simply cannot say that if X did not happen, then Y would not have happened, so Z would have happened.

Yes, if X did not happen, then Y (a logical progression from X) would not have happened as we know it, but that is no guarantee that Z, as put forward, would occur.

To apply that to this situation, there is no guarantee that if the Noldor didn't come to Middle-Earth that Morgoth would not have been defeated, and that he would have taken over the entire world.

I think that you underestimate the power of the Valar. In the War of Wrath, it only took a few Maiar and a host of Elves to defeat Morgoth and his legions of evil. There wasn't a Vala involved. Not one. And remember that Morgoth has been diseminating his power throughout the matter of Arda.

Furthermore, I do not think that Morgoth could have subdued the race of man completely. Maybe he could have exterminated it (but I don't think it likely), but the power of Men to "shape their fate" is a pretty powerful thing to fight.

So I think that if the Valar had stirred themselves to fight Morgoth, with an Elven host twice as large behind them, and ALL of them marched to war, I think that the weakened Morgoth- unwilling even to leave his throne, would have been defeated.

The aftermath, I'll grant, would probably have been worse. But who knows? Perhaps it would have led to a greater participation of the Valar in the world. Yavanna would go around re-planting forests. Ulmo would go about cleansing the streams. And all men- not just a few privaleged tribes might have been taken to a Numenorean paradise.

My point is essentially that I feel you are attaching too much importance to this one event. Yes, it was important. Yes, it changed everything thereafter. But just because Feanor's actions led to the salvation of Middle-Earth does not mean that the salvation of Middle-Earth could not have been accomplished any other way.

[davem]

The Noldor have to get to Middle-Earth quickly. The only way to do so was to go on the Teleri's boats. The Teleri wouldn't let their boats be used, so the only path left was to try and take them. The Teleri tried to stop the Noldor, which of course resulted in a fight. The fight led to weapons being wielded.

They may have given up their ships if the Valar had asked them to. Maybe they would even have manned the ships & died in the battle against Morgoth in defence of them - Teleri just as dead, ships just as burned, events predicted in the Music fulfilled, but just in a different way. Looked at in this way, motives become of supreme importance, particularly as far as Elves are concerned.