What do you wish Tolkien....

[goldfinger]

would have elaborated more on or had been more in depth in?

For me I would have liked to have known the names of the other Six Father of the Dwarves, who they were, and the history of their houses.

Better figures given in battles, populations, and so forth.

More about the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Who the commanders were, other battles, strength and casualty reports...

Maps of Eastern ME. Who the people, were their cultures, history...

the names of some different cities of the Dwarves in the Grey Mts, Blue Mts, and the Iron Hills.

A history of the wandering Dunedain.

And so much more.

[McCaber]

A full version of the battle of Gondolin.

[Sauron the White]

I would be extremely happy if when I look at the multi-volume HISTORY OF MIDDLE EARTH sitting upon my shelves , that it truly lived up to its title and not be the HISTORY OF THE WRITING ABOUT MIDDLE EARTH which it is. Of course, if you gave it the proper title that actually fits the contents they would have sold even less copies than what they did. 12 volumes indeed!

[Mithalwen]

A full version of the battle of Gondolin.

On a similar topic, I would like a lot more on Idril, far more interesting and admirable than Luthien to my mind.

I also like more on the house of Dol Amroth and why exactly Celeborn and his grandsons lingered at Rivendell.

And of course lots of herblore and botany, information on gondorian architecture and costumes everywhere. Lots more elvish and of courses the zooology of Middle Earth so we can finally resolve the question on the colour of Legolas's hare and Isildur's hare... ;)

[Volo]

A longer Valaquenta.

[Aiwendil]

My wish-list is:

1. A full Tale of Earendil - this is the one major story in the Legendarium for which we have nothing even approaching a 'full version'.

2. A large-scale telling of the Fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance - this strikes me as being capable of sustaining much more than a short work like the Akallabeth. I think that Amandil, Elendil, Isildur, Anarion, Ar-Pharazon and the rest would make great characters in a novel-length version.

3. Maglor's Noldolante - a full telling of the flight of the Noldor. Like the Fall of Numenor, I think this story has everything needed for a great novel.

4. The Lost Road - I found this really intriguing, and I wish we had more than four chapters of it. I'd love to read some of the intermediate chapters, between the modern ones and the Numenorean - some of the ideas in the outline sounded very interesting.

5. Tal-Elmar - for some reason, this fragment really drew me in. I'm not sure whether it was really going anywhere, but I think it could have gone somewhere good.

[Lindale]

the histories of the "little" peoples: More on the Hobbits and the Druadan, and the Ents and how they lost the Entwives, the Wild Men that the Rohirrim encountered, and the "uncivilized" men that the Numenoreans found. And of course, on the "Big" folk, more stories on Numenor and how Maglor fared after the short bit telling how the Silmaril he had he threw on the sea.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A completed Notion Club Papers. And the Farmer Giles sequel.

[Folwren]

More stuff - stories and history - about Hobbits. That'd be wonderful.

[zxcvbn]

I would be extremely happy if when I look at the multi-volume HISTORY OF MIDDLE EARTH sitting upon my shelves , that it truly lived up to its title and not be the HISTORY OF THE WRITING ABOUT MIDDLE EARTH which it is. Of course, if you gave it the proper title that actually fits the contents they would have sold even less copies than what they did. 12 volumes indeed!
Heh heh. Yes, it's a very misleading title. When I first read the title 'History of Middle-Earth' in the list of Tolkien books I was overjoyed that I'd get to learn more in depth knowledge of Middle Earth history. Then I got hold of the Book of Lost Tales and read a bunch of half-finished narratives that had the same stories as the Silmarillion, albeit seriously inconsistent and with some commentary at the end. And i was like ***?

I would have wished for Tolkien to write a detailed history of the many Kingdoms of Men that existed in the Dark Years of the Second Age and were totally forgotten later, such as Dunharrow.

[mormegil]

I would like to learn more about the Entwives and Tom Bombadil. Also, do Balrogs have wings?

I would love to know in more detail what happens to men, dwarves hobbit, orcs...basically all non-elves when they die.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

More about hobbits in general, more about Frodo's parents indeed.
Herblore of the Shire by:Meriadoc Brandybuck
Galadriel
The History of Doriath and Lembas
Merry's Children
Sam's children
Frodo and Bilbo after they get to Valinor

[saystine]

I wish that there was more about Celebrian,
her relationship with Elrond, and the founding
of Rivendell.

I just feel that she is a key character with ties to
so many other characters, that I am sad that there
is more stories about her.

I keep hoping they will find a lost manuscript! :)

[Alfirin]

A definitve answer to what actually did happen to Alatar and Pallando (the two blue wizards who went into the east with Saruman)

[MatthewM]

A lot of things!

-I would love to have a full description of Boromir's journey from Minas Tirith to Rivendell.

-What happened to Elladan and Elrohir?

-How did Tolkien come to a final vision after the process that is read in HoMe?

I have a lot of appearance questions...appearance questions that most people probably do not care about!

-I would like incredibly detailed physical appearances on each member of The Fellowship. I would love an answer to my questions on beards- most likely they did not, but I would love to know whether or not Tolkien pictured Boromir and Aragorn with beards of any kind. I know the canon leans towards no, but it is never mentioned that they do not. For my part I see them as beardless...which leads me to my next question...

-Were all Numenoreans beardless until old age? When did they start growing beards? Were they unable to or did they choose not to in fashion after the Elves?

-Were there dark-haired Rohirrim?

-The hair color of Legolas?

Of course there are more that I might post later.

[Morwen]

I would like more detail about the elven refugee community at Sirion and more info on what Gondor was like under the rule of Aragorn.

[Inziladun]

I'd wish for:

1. More information on the Men of Harad and Rhûn

2. Details of Minas Morgul, and what day-to-day life was like for the Orcs serving there next to the Nazgûl.

3. A look at the surviving remnants of Beleriand after the War of Wrath, such as Himling, Tol Fuin, and Tol Morwen.

4. A better description of Dol Guldur.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think I would like to know the real story about the Blue Wizards and what happened to them — but maybe not. There have been times when an author did write about little things I'd wondered about, and I found the "official" version disappointing. :)

[Sardy]

I'd love to know more about the Blue Wizards---their mission(s) and their fate(s), as well as Radagast's doings about Middle-earth... Would also love to learn more about Dol Guldur and the Necromancer... Some of the more obscure creatures of Middle-Earth (like Old Man Willow, Bilbo's Trolls and Giants, etc...)

[Galadriel]

I am quite content with his works, but since this is just a dream:

1. I would have liked to know what became of Maglor after Maedhros died.
2. More stories with Tom Bombadil. His episode in LotR seemed so fleeting.
3. A little more elaboration on the lineage of Thranduil. I know Oropher was his father, but other than that I have no clue.
4. I wish Tolkien would specify a little more on hair and eye colour. It was rather irritating to read about characters who were nothing but a blob. Eg: Legolas, Ecthelion, Fingolfin, Frodo, etc.
5. A little more women in the stories. They seem to exist mostly as 'prizes' for the male heroes, even if they are strong.
6. More detail with deaths and other scenes. It seems very rushed when Tolkien says 'and hence he died, fighting a werewolf' etc.

That's all I can think of for now, but maybe I'll post more later...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

1. I agree about the Blue Wizards. It's intriguing to read
that they were "missionaries" in the East. Even if they
"failed" as such, their overall influence could have been
ameliorartive (sp.?) towards the Easterners and Southerners
Sauron influence.
Related, how many of the wizards were allowed back into
Valinor, and on what conditions? I'd imagine Radagast was,
if perhaps demoted a peg or two for scatterbrainness :) ,
but what of the Blue Wizards- sent to much more trying
and challenging situations then the other three?

2. The tale of Aragorn's journeys- including into Far Harad where the
stars are strange, perhaps attenuated like Tuor's in Unfinished Tales.

3. As was done with Eowyn, more stronger/assertive women in
Beleriand and Numenor. Picture Finduilas taking on a dragon or
(being rescued by the Brethil lads while being taken north) becoming
a lady Robin Hood in the forest, and not too forgiving towards her ex-
boyfriend, that hot-head Turin.

And speaking of Queen Beruthiel...What of her story. Perhaps she
and her shipmates survived. :eek:

[Archaic Elf]

If we could have one thing, a full novel of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin would be the way to go. I haven't read "The Children of Hurin" yet, but I would trade that for a full account of the fall of Gondolin in a heartbeat. I like both stories, but Turin's tale is describe to a satisfying extent in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.

I'll agree that the story of the Blue Wizards would be phenomenal to read. If we could have a history of the East, the origin and history of man, and detailed maps of the entire Earth (beyond Valinor and Middle Earth), then that would add even more depth to an already massive world. You would have to take seminars in school to be able to get a handle on it all.

Other than that, maybe just more details here and there, like more information about the rangers. Too bad Tolkien didn't have a few laptop computers...

[narfforc]

I would like to have seen his continuation of The New Shadow.

[Pitchwife]

To borrow an answer from Pippin:
"The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas [...] Of course! What less?"

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Of course, had Tolkien been an elf he might have
gotten around to much of the above. Another
400-500 years and he'd really have gotten going. :)

[Firefoot]

The origins of the Nazgul... who were they before they were Ring-Wraiths?

Same with the Mouth of Sauron.

And what about the Haradrim, the Easterlings, and the Southrons? All we really know about them is that they rode Oliphaunts...

More about Hobbits, though that's already been said. More about Gollum's race. Just more about other settlements of people in general... like who were the people whose babies Gollum was stealing and eating (very poorly paraphrased...).

[doug*platypus]

Oh, so many things!! The first thing that came to my mind however was the Istari, in particular the Blue Wizards. Having said that, though, perhaps it's better in a way that they remain mysterious!

[ecthelion]

A full version of the battle of Gondolin.

I agree! The battle described in the book of lost tales is amazing, but if Tolkien could have published it with all the new ideas he had late in his life it would have easily been my favorite story of the silmarillian.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

More information on the Men of Harad and Rhûn.

This. I'd love to hear about the different cultures of men and not just have them described by Northerners.

Like to know more about the Witch-Realm of Angmar - seems like a very creepy place.

[Rumil]

"I wish the Prof had time", I said,
"To talk of many things:
Of Elves--and Dwarves--and ME maps--
Of Dunedain--and Kings--
And why dragon breath is boiling hot--
And if Balrogs have wings."

Oh, Tuor in Gondolin, I heard that JRRT wrote a story about the Travels of Aragorn but the manuscript was subsequently lost :(.

I've wanted more info on Lindon and the Grey Havens. Imagine a biography of Cirdan - he'd been in Middle Earth right through (possibly even from Cuivienen), I bet he had a good tale or two!

[mark12_30]

I want a house on the shores of Annuminas.

[Flame of Udûn]

I wish he had published complete works on all his languages especially the Elvish languages and Khuzdul would have been brilliant if there was a total vocabulary for them available and they could have been used as actual languages especially Quenya which was his attempt to form a perfect language

[Elemmakil]

I wish he had published complete works on all his languages especially the Elvish languages and Khuzdul would have been brilliant if there was a total vocabulary for them available and they could have been used as actual languages especially Quenya which was his attempt to form a perfect language

Ditto. At least for Khuzdul. Though appararently there are some notes that may, someday, if one possesses Elven (or at least Dunedain) longevity, get published in Vinyar Tengwar...

[Galin]

I wish he had published complete works on all his languages especially the Elvish languages and Khuzdul would have been brilliant if there was a total vocabulary for them available and they could have been used as actual languages especially Quenya which was his attempt to form a perfect language

Well, as a wish there's nothing wrong with this obviously, but I'll just point out something Tolkien said in an interview:

"No. No. No. I wouldn't mind other people knowing it, and enjoying it, but I didn't really want to, like some people who have been equally inventive in languages [? desiring ?] to sort of make cults and have people speaking it all together, no, I don't desire to go and have an afternoon talking Elvish to chaps. For one thing of course Elvish is too complicated. I've never finished making it."


I think JRRT wanted to 'complete' some things about 'Elvish', maybe including a presentation of the historical relationships between the various Elvish language branches (at least in some measure), or producing consistent enough and satisfactory etymologies concerning a lot of his nomenclature, for another example, but I don't get the feeling he wanted to complete a given language in the sense of presenting it to the world as finished and 'usuable', like Esperanto for instance.

Not that anyone said otherwise in any case :)

[Elemmakil]

Another thing I should like to have seen more of is the rewrite of Hobbit c. 1960 that was intended to bring it more in line with the published LoTR. As I recall (too lazy to get up and go to the shelf...) he got three (?I think that's right) chapters in but abandoned the project when an unidentified friend, to whom he had shown the draft, commented something to the effect that "it was very good, but not The Hobbit".

While I respect the reason behind the decision, I rather wish he had postponed showing this friend the draft for at least another chapter or two (or three or...) as it was fascinating to watch how he tried to reconcile The Hobbit with his later works. For example, to help explain why Gandalf could not read the inscriptions on the swords found in the Troll cave (since, as is obvious from LoTR, he certainly could), Tolkien rewrote the text slightly to state that the swords were covered in dried orc blood, and would need to be cleaned and repolished to read any inscriptions.

The text cuts off at the end of "Roast Mutton" - had Tolkien gotten to at least the next chapter we might have been rewarded with, for example, a fuller description of Orcrist and Glamdring. While certainly not all would agree, I at least think it would have been very cool.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Of course we'd love to have a full account of Feanor's life, the grand events of the first battles of the Elves and Morgoth, and more about the crossing of the ice and the Kinslaying. Not to mention much more about Earendil's travels, a book like the Voyage of the Dawn Treader without all the Biblical allegory would be amazing.

[Cirdan]

I wish that J.R.R. had been given the life of the Eldar so he could have continued writing!

First and foremost, I'd like to read a completed Silmarillion fleshed out to the level of a couple of the Unfinished Tales like those of Tuor and Turin. What a monumental work the Silmarillion would have been if every chapter was a detailed saga!

I would also like alot more of the histories of Arnor and Gondor. Where exactly did the Dunedain of Rhudaur and Cardolan live? A lot more on Umbar, the Black Numenoreans, and how a few of them became Nazgul. The story of the slaying of Scatha the Worm, more about Dorwinion and life around the Sea of Rhun, and Nurnen, and what was built at Emyn Arnen?

[Galadriel55]

I wish there was more written on the life inside an Elvish society (except for the drunk guard in TH, that is :)). What was family life like? How did Elves react to 'you have to serve this guy cause he's your lord', especially in the First Age?

I especially wondered about Rivendell. Elrond is no King, yet everyone accepts him as almost-such. Are all Elves happy to serve him? What kind of 'servant hierarchy' do they have?

[Cirdan]

I've wanted more info on Lindon and the Grey Havens. Imagine a biography of Cirdan - he'd been in Middle Earth right through (possibly even from Cuivienen), I bet he had a good tale or two!

Yeah!!! And why he, of all elves, seemed aged with a grey beard! Did he offend Illuvatar with his jokes or something?

[Galadriel55]

I've wanted more info on Lindon and the Grey Havens. Imagine a biography of Cirdan - he'd been in Middle Earth right through (possibly even from Cuivienen), I bet he had a good tale or two!

Yeah!!! And why he, of all elves, seemed aged with a grey beard! Did he offend Illuvatar with his jokes or something?

Yes, that too! Cirdan is another enigma!

But still, what I'm most curious about is life withing an Elven community. We know that they got fruits and vegetables from somewhere. I doubt that Rivendell imported them from Dunlend, or something. They must have had farms. Can you imagine a proud elf weeding their vegetable garden? :eek: And we know that some Elves (*cough Thranduil's guard *cough) aren't very happy with their Lords. I wonder what Elrond's people think of their role as his servants.

[Cirdan]

Yes, that too! Cirdan is another enigma!

But still, what I'm most curious about is life withing an Elven community. We know that they got fruits and vegetables from somewhere. I doubt that Rivendell imported them from Dunlend, or something. They must have had farms. Can you imagine a proud elf weeding their vegetable garden? :eek: And we know that some Elves (*cough Thranduil's guard *cough) aren't very happy with their Lords. I wonder what Elrond's people think of their role as his servants.

No I don't picture the likes of Glorfindel or Gildor or Erestor raking the dirt, but these are "lords", and there is clearly some kind of social strata in elven culture. I would imagine that after thousands of years of life, they had perfected some of the management of mundane needs into arts that seem like "magic" to the likes of Samwise. They may have found ways to grow and cook things easily and perfectly with minimal effort and awesome results like Lembas. In and around Rivendell could be solaria greenhouses full of plants, and/or in the basement with Noldo-lanterns as hydroponic lights. ;)

[Cirdan]

A number of people want more info on the Istari especially the Blue Wizards, but I want more information on Gandalf and Radagast. The Wizards arrived in TA 1000 but Tolkien was going to set that back into the SA when Sauron forged the One Ring and started war. If the Istari were in Middle-earth this friggin' long, what were they doing?

If Gandalf's main home was in the NW, what role did he play when Angmar was busy trashing Arnor? Recruiting Hobbit bowmen?

If Radagast lived by Mirkwood, what role did he ever play against Dol Guldur (TA 1100 onwards)?

Did Saruman ever live at Minas Tirith and did he offer counsel or aid when the Ulairi re-appeared and sacked Minas Ithil?

[Galin]

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

[Alfirin]

Another thing I should like to have seen more of is the rewrite of Hobbit c. 1960 that was intended to bring it more in line with the published LoTR. As I recall (too lazy to get up and go to the shelf...) he got three (?I think that's right) chapters in but abandoned the project when an unidentified friend, to whom he had shown the draft, commented something to the effect that "it was very good, but not The Hobbit".

While I respect the reason behind the decision, I rather wish he had postponed showing this friend the draft for at least another chapter or two (or three or...) as it was fascinating to watch how he tried to reconcile The Hobbit with his later works. For example, to help explain why Gandalf could not read the inscriptions on the swords found in the Troll cave (since, as is obvious from LoTR, he certainly could), Tolkien rewrote the text slightly to state that the swords were covered in dried orc blood, and would need to be cleaned and repolished to read any inscriptions.

The text cuts off at the end of "Roast Mutton" - had Tolkien gotten to at least the next chapter we might have been rewarded with, for example, a fuller description of Orcrist and Glamdring. While certainly not all would agree, I at least think it would have been very cool.

Indeed it would. I'm particualarly curios about Glamdring's scabbard. In a footnote to the version of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. it is mentioned that the King's sword (which is presumably Glamdring) has a sheath of "ruel bone" (said to be ivory). Perhaps a more detailed description might have answered the question of whether it was a single peice or a series of plaques, which would have bearing on the species (see my other thread)

[Cirdan]

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

Their 'official', published arrival circa TA 1000 'coincides' with Sauron's return and his takeover of Amon Lanc. I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then? If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth? In the 2nd age Sauron's armies overran nearly everything except Lindon!

I wonder if JRRT had ever planned to revise any part of the Appendices in a future edition of LotR?


I would also like to ask JRRT whether Gandalf's Elvish name had changed after he became "The White". "Nimrandir" (white wanderer)? "Nimistar" (white wizard)? Did he go back to being good ol' Olorin in Valinor?

[Galin]

(...) I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then?

We know the general date anyway (not that you don't): 'The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age' and it was said that the reincarnated Glorfindel probably came to Middle-earth in SA 1600.

But as I say, we have evidence that JRRT mused about sending two wizards in the Second Age, but the other late citation might refer to all five Istari in the Third Age (at least just as well as it might refer to the Second Age, unless I'm missing something there).

If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth?

They sent Glorfindel :D

[Cirdan]

They sent Glorfindel :D

Sauron damn-near conquered every square mile of Middle-earth and they send over one elven warrior, who, head-to-head, is really no match for the strongest Maiar. If I was Gil-galad I'd be like "Gee thanks! No Vanya hosts to spare? C'mon!"

[Galin]

That was a bit of fun there, but more to the point the Eldar and Edain had enough might to resist Sauron, and did, in both the War of the Elves and Sauron and the Last Alliance. But the Last Alliance was aptly named, as no such great assembly was possible in the Third Age, which also became a time of estrangement.

As for *Laurefindel Ondolindello, I see his return as helping with respect to estel, inspiration, wisdom... more than simpy a measurement of added force.

Powerful though he was!

[Cirdan]

That was a bit of fun there, but more to the point the Eldar and Edain had enough might to resist Sauron, and did, in both the War of the Elves and Sauron and the Last Alliance. But the Last Alliance was aptly named, as no such great assembly was possible in the Third Age, which also became a time of estrangement.

That's believable. The Valar knew that Numenor would rescue ME.


As for *Laurefindel Ondolindello, I see his return as helping with respect to estel, inspiration, wisdom... more than simpy a measurement of added force.

Powerful though he was!

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....

[Galadriel55]

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

Because Glorfy is awesome! :cool::D

But definitely a good question, tht deserves a better answer. :p

[Cirdan]

Because Glorfy is awesome! :cool::D


"Glorfy"? http://www.ipbwiki.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif Did you have a secret thing with him, Galadriel? I won't tell Celeborn - honest!

But I think that Finrod really deserved another chance, and he was as wise (and cool) as his sister. He just probably wouldn't want to leave his Vanya gf! ;-)

[Galin]

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

While Tolkien does note that Glorfindel's return must have been for strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, I think his great fame would naturally be an inspiration. And as for wisdom, while not Olorin himself obviously, it was said Glorfindel became a friend and follower of Olorin in Valinor, and...

'for long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (...) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his sacrifice.' JRRT, Glorfindel II

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

I rather like Tolkien's first 'answer' to this question from Glorfindel I (even though he seems to have superseded it in Glorfindel II): Laurefindel came with Gandalf as a companion (and again, he was a friend and follower of Olorin).

Finrod had good enough reasons to stay in Aman; but more generally, the late essays raise issues that include: Glorfindel being a reluctant rebel in the first place, his sacrifice, the matter of reincarnation in Aman concerning the Exiles... and again generally speaking, we can see Tolkien working out Glorfindel's special circumstances.

Of course externally Tolkien had two Elves named Glorfindel in his legendarium (not necessarily a problem in itself), though only one was known to the general public in any case; and if they were to be considered the same being, then it was a given that Glorfindel of Gondolin had returned to Middle-earth at some point (unless JRRT was willing to change the circumstances of Glorfindel's death, which I doubt).

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....


Tolkien wrote a later essay concerning the word ros for example (which, not unexpectedly, included details beyond specific linguistic concerns)... then he noted that most of it failed because of an already published detail however, the word andros being Sindarin. For another instance, JRRT wrote two variant late descriptions of Celebrimbor after he had published (second edition) that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean -- but did Tolkien remember this when he wrote these descriptions? and if he forgot but remembered later, did he necessarily need to go back and write 'this fails' on either text, since the public was unaware of them?

Christopher Tolkien thinks his father had forgotten about this detail and (in his opinion) JRRT surely would have felt bound to Celebrimbor the Feanorean.

I tend to agree, but this matter is difficult. To state the obvious: we know what already published text Tolkien was willing to change when he changed it for the Second Edition. What was he willing to change later? who knows? for example, why not simply change the appendices and note ros really was a Beorian word rather than Sindarin (as in his late essay)? But, it would appear that his 'most of this fails' should mean that he was not willing to alter this.

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.

[Findegil]

About the needed change to take 'ros'as Beorian: This is not a simple matter. The naming of geographical feuters in Middelearth is mostly in Sindarin. And what connection could their be for Cair Andros to Beorian? The essay failed because Cair Andors was well established in the main text and not only in the appendix and because the system of Sindarin names for geo. features was also a fact observable in many many names. Cair Andors as an acception would have needed an explaination which Tolkien did not have at hand.

Why did the Istari Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf arrive so late, if the other two came already in 1600 Second Age:
It seems that from the begining of the plan to send them, they were not supposed to act as powerful group. Therefor they arived alone or as couples. And it could be that after the two blue wizards had arrived the plan was overturned by the rapid developments that occured in Middleearth, by which Saruon was humilated and pushed back. I belive that the Valar did not desire the Numenoreans to take part in the war. Most likely they had some idea what would come out of that involvement.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Cirdan]

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.

Great stuff, Galin as usual. I'm inclined to believe that Tolkien would have preferred to keep certain facets of his writing consistent and not confuse his readers by changing origins and other major details of history. That he forgot what he had written as he got old is very likely, and/or that whilst in the throes of his imaginative, creative processes he was unrestricted by what came before and just let ideas flow freely since he did not expect every single scribble to be published and scrutinized by the masses!

I belive that the Valar did not desire the Numenoreans to take part in the war. Most likely they had some idea what would come out of that involvement.

??? Are you saying that the Valar did not want Tar-Minastir to send the great force which saved Eriador when Sauron had the mastery there?

[Galin]

About the needed change to take 'ros' as Beorian: This is not a simple matter. The naming of geographical feuters in Middelearth is mostly in Sindarin. And what connection could their be for Cair Andros to Beorian? The essay failed because Cair Andors was well established in the main text and not only in the appendix and because the system of Sindarin names for geo. features was also a fact observable in many many names. Cair Andors as an acception would have needed an explaination which Tolkien did not have at hand.

I'm no linguist but a borrowing from Beorian seems simple enough to me -- Tolkien arguably needed to solve his problem in an archaic context, or let's say, well before Cair Andros was named in Sindarin.

The Grey-elven speech of Imladris shows Quenya influence -- for example miruvor from Quenya (by way of Valarin). And in a late text Tolkien mused about making an Elvish word, long held (externally) to be Elvish in derivation, a borrowing from a Mannish tongue -- going from memory I think it was atan actually (possibly from Of Dwarves And Men if I recall correctly), but in any case I'm fairly confident the example exists.


I posted this idea elsewhere, and so far anyway, no bites as to why it would be problematic, or notably so. In other words: -ros in Elros and Cair Andros is 'Sindarin' as much as miruvor and adan are (again, if I remember the example atan correctly) -- and Tolkien has perhaps solved his problem -- ros 'red-brown' and ros 'foam' do not both hail originally from an Eldarin context, despite that they both ended up in the Eldarin tongues.

Then again, I'm not wholly sure there is that great a problem here with the homophones being so different in meaning and yet being Elvish, despite that Tolkien obviously wanted to correct this at one point.


Again maybe this only seems to work to me because -- as is no doubt true -- JRRT knew vastly (and I mean vastly) much more about languages than I do. But I still wonder why this idea would not have solved both the problem that inspired the essay, and the subsequent problem of published andros that made Tolkien discard most of it.

[Galin]

(...) and/or that whilst in the throes of his imaginative, creative processes he was unrestricted by what came before and just let ideas flow freely since he did not expect every single scribble to be published and scrutinized by the masses!


Well put! I should add that to my usual rant on Tolkien-published text being of higher (Valinorean?) stature than other types!

But I may or may not credit you when I steal it though ;)

[Findegil]

About the problem of 'ros': I think that for Tolkien a barrowed stem 'ros' meaning foam, spindrift would not have worked, because it would have created the same unwanted situation of 2 homophone stems with completly unconected meanings. Tolkien had not a problem with the history behind the 2 stems but with the fact of their existence. But in the end he was forced to accept them, because both meanings were already published.

Posted by Cirdan:??? Are you saying that the Valar did not want Tar-Minastir to send the great force which saved Eriador when Sauron had the mastery there?Yes, that is exacly what I meaned. Look at the longterm outcome of the involvement of the Numenoreans: 1 Generation later they came not as helper but as masters and conquers to the men of Middle-Earth. They became proud and greedy. And started soon (as the Valar recone time) to rebel against the authority of the Valar. It ended all in the foul idea of Ar-Pharazon, that he could control Sauron and in Saurons subsuquent coruption of almost all Numenoreans.

Most probably the Valar had some beter plan how to counterakt against Sauron in the Second Age. Maybe that did not include a rescue for the lingering Elves in Middle-Earth, that had sined again by making and keeping the Rings of Power and had anyway a way of escape into the west.
But this is all speculation and the recorded history of Middle-Earth went otherwise.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

About the problem of 'ros': I think that for Tolkien a barrowed stem 'ros' meaning foam, spindrift would not have worked, because it would have created the same unwanted situation of 2 homophone stems with completly unconected meanings. Tolkien had not a problem with the history behind the 2 stems but with the fact of their existence. But in the end he was forced to accept them, because both meanings were already published.

I disagree a bit here. Tolkien wrote: 'It is difficult to accept these two homophonic elements -- of unconnected, indeed unconnectable meanings -- as used in Sindarin, or Sindarized names.' The Problem of Ros

And more importantly perhaps, in Tolkien's solution both -ros 'red brown' and Beorian roth > -ros 'foam' still existed in the ultimate same form and meaning in Maedros and Elros, but now both had not arisen within an Eldarin context. Elros would end with a mannish word for example, Maedros with an Elvish word; and now it would not be difficult to accept the homophones of unconnected meaning in these names.

My suggestion is to stick with that, but add, as noted with atan Sindarin adan (Dúnadan), that the Beorian word ros 'foam' became adopted into Grey-elven, and thus Cair Andros is explained as well. Yes the homophones still end up in Sindarin or Sindarized names -- as they remained in Maedros and Elros within Tolkien's own solution for example -- but why would it be difficult to accept that the meanings are unconnected?


The key is to adequately explain homophones of unconnected meaning in these names, and if Tolkien considers the problem solved by making one Beorian, the same solution remains if Beorian ros also becomes a borrowed word in Sindarin.


Also was -ros meaning 'red brown' published by JRRT? not exactly -ros, but the name Rhosgobel appears I think, though I'm not sure Tolkien himself ever noted its meaning in print, for his readership at large I mean.

Just to confirm: the borrowed Mannish word was atan from a note in Of Dwarves And Men, becoming adan in a Sindarin context of course.

[Mumriken]

I found the relationship between Melkor and the other valas to be most interesting. There is already a lot about Melkor but I'd like more. The only reason the children of hurin is such a great tale is because of him. How he mocks Hurin...and yeah he is just great. Ungoliant also seems really interesting to me.

In lord of the rings I was really facinated with the barrow downs, I really liked that chapter about Tom Bombadil and the barrow downs. I'd like more of that...whatever it is. Personally I'm not so interested in the wars of men and elves. I'm more into exploring characters and the origin's of strange beings.