M-e objects - explained my science

[The Might]

The topic of the thread is quite simple.
Are you aware of any "magical" object in M-e that could be explained with the help of our current scientifical knowledge?
Is there any way one could explain how the Elessar or the Palantiri worked?

Yes, of course I am aware that it is difficult to find explanations for such "magical" devices from a fantasy work, but still... it is worth a try in my opinion.

I also believe there is a book on this very topic by Henry Gee I think, so it seems this stuff has been done before.
I am thinking of buying it but maybe if anyone of you already owns it I would also like to know what is your opinion about it.

[obloquy]

The topic of the thread is quite simple.
Are you aware of any "magical" object in M-e that could be explained with the help of our current scientifical knowledge?
Is there any way one could explain how the Elessar or the Palantiri worked?

Yes, of course I am aware that it is difficult to find explanations for such "magical" devices from a fantasy work, but still... it is worth a try in my opinion.

I also believe there is a book on this very topic by Henry Gee I think, so it seems this stuff has been done before.
I am thinking of buying it but maybe if anyone of you already owns it I would also like to know what is your opinion about it.

Einstein's "spooky action at a distance."

Without pretending to know much about the subject, quantum mechanics--or, perhaps more apposite to the question of the Palantiri, quantum entanglement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement)--might offer some interesting possibilities. Of course, I don't know how much of this branch of physics can really be classified as "scientific knowledge" so much as "scientific questions."

[Lalwendë]

I've got the Henry Gee book, it's very entertaining! I'd recommend it if you like both Tolkien and mad ponderings on science - there are chapters exploring the origins of Orcs, why Legolas can see so far and so on. I think he's also the new editor of Mallorn, the Tolkien Society journal. If he is (don't quote me on it ;) ) then that's promising as he writes in a lively style.

There are other "The Science Of..." books too. I've got ones on Pullman and Doctor Who.

[alatar]

Einstein's "spooky action at a distance."
I think that it's only "spooky" as it goes against our 'common sense,' which is adapted to living in the world that we do. For example, at the atomic level, there ain't a whole lot of stuff making up matter (i.e. lots of empty space), and so you should be able to see right through a wall. And yet you can't, as your eyes aren't made for such a task, as there was no advantage to it.

Anyway, quantum mechanics is always considered magical and spooky as it's almost always not well understood, and so receives a lot of misinterpretation, nor always applicable/analogous to the world that we live in. The math works out just fine. ;)

So, are there specific artifacts that you'd like to discuss the possible science of? Palantir? Third-generation iPhone perhaps?

[The Might]

Just took a look at that Wikipedia article, but I don't understand a thing :eek:

Well, alatar, can't say a specific object but pretty much any object.
I am still trying to find any information on how the Elessar might have worked.

[alatar]

Well, alatar, can't say a specific object but pretty much any object.
I am still trying to find any information on how the Elessar might have worked.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about that shiny bit of green glass that Aragorn and Galadriel made much of (takes more than that and some ragtag to be a King ;))? What, to you, did it 'do?'

[obloquy]

Basically, this is all I was getting at: However, it must be understood that a change to one entangled particle does indeed affect the other instantaneously, but this is only known after the experiment is performed and notes are compared, therefore there is no way to actually send information faster than the speed of light.

Currently it cannot be used to transmit information, but a refined understanding and the advancement of the technologies used to observe particles might lead to an everyday application. The idea is just that, if it were possible to put this phenomenon to practical use, the results might eventually look something like Palantir communication.

I have always imagined that the magic of the Elves, the Istari, and various other embodied Ainur had perhaps more to do with their understanding of the natural world than any inexplicable powers. As a result of such a thorough understanding--and perhaps, in the case of the Ainur as co-creators, also a peculiar connection to the fundamental forces and materials of the physical world--they were capable of manipulating the material around them in ways Men could not understand.

[alatar]

Currently it cannot be used to transmit information, but a refined understanding and the advancement of the technologies used to observe particles might lead to an everyday application. The idea is just that, if it were possible to put this phenomenon to practical use, the results might eventually look something like Palantir communication.
Understood. But as you say, we may not know now what we can do with that information, nor if it's the 'real' thing that's going on. Read the article (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326757,00.html) today regarding CERN and 'sparticles.' Even the CERN scientists aren't sure what they will find in the next experiment in April (ain't that cool!).

I have always imagined that the magic of the Elves, the Istari, and various other embodied Ainur had perhaps more to do with their understanding of the natural world than any inexplicable powers. As a result of such a thorough understanding--and perhaps, in the case of the Ainur as co-creators, also a peculiar connection to the fundamental forces and materials of the physical world--they were capable of manipulating the material around them in ways Men could not understand.
If you would have showed up at my door 30 years ago with today's technology (I use the iPhone as an example as I assume that everyone has heard of it), I would have assumed that you were definitely from the future with flying cars and all that. If you'd have been dressed as an elf, and I'd met you in the woods, I might have believed that Tolkien had documented a true history.

What does a Palantir do that a modern phone cannot? And if our technology is lacking, wait a day...

It truly is our 'deep' understanding of the nature of things that allows us (not me ;)) to create the miraculous artifacts that we have.

Have seen technicians in the neighborhood checking for natural gas leaks. These persons wave a stick over the ground, and that 'stick' sniffs for natural gas. An audible tone helps locate the source of the leak (when present). No, this is not dowsing :rolleyes:, but spectroscopy (I think). Air passes through a sensitive detector, and when the right chemical is found...

Find a smell - pheromone? - distinctive to orcs. Place a detector within your sword along with some LED lights and Bingo! You get Sting.

[obloquy]

Your points are valid, of course. However, unless the Palantiri were utilizing a communications satellite their explanation as a scientific device is at least anachronistic. My point was that the Elves and Ainur can influence and utilize the natural world without the requisite technology because of their absolute knowledge of its origins and makeup.

[The Might]

The Elessar, at least the original one made in Gondolin that trapped sunlight in it and was said to enable people looking through it to see the old as young again and also to heal.
I doubt the first part can be really explained by science but what about the second part?

Do solar rays have healing powers?
Can a gem refract the light in such a way to make this possible?
No idea, maybe you can think of something. ;)

[Meriadoc1961]

This is an interesting topic and one that I had just recently been musing about myself.

When I first read of the Palantir back in 1974 it seemed magical, even though we did have telephones and television, but some 34 years removed it seems more of a technological innovation similar to the iPhone, as has been mentioned.

I really liked the explanation for Sting.

The Mirror of Gladriel has some kind of physics application and usage beyond my knowledge as it could view events from the past, the present, and into possible futures.

Gandalf's lighting of his wand could be produced with batteries and a bulb.

Merry

[alatar]

The Elessar, at least the original one made in Gondolin that trapped sunlight in it and was said to enable people looking through it to see the old as young again and also to heal.
I doubt the first part can be really explained by science but what about the second part?
Does the person viewed through the Elessar 'become' young or merely 'appear' young? Or does the wearer appear younger?

Regarding healing, I'd remembered an article from way back regarding that Star Trek medical thingy that looked like a salt shaker that the doctor would wave over a person and s/he'd be healed. Here are articles from the years 2004 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/15/BUGLV5J6GT1.DTL&type=business) and even better from 2007 (http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/08/star-trek-medic.html). Give it time; they'll get there.

Do solar rays have healing powers?
Only for Superman; for the rest of us, they are extremely destructive.

Can a gem refract the light in such a way to make this possible?
No idea, maybe you can think of something. ;)
You could make it look like a gem to keep your competitors guessing. And I'd like to see more technological innovation that 'looked nice' than looking like it was made in someone's garage.

Gandalf's lighting of his wand could be produced with batteries and a bulb.
Kinda takes the magic out of it. :(

[Eönwë]

Well, the problem is, he could just change things at an atomic level. By saying "Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!" in a certain tone he could cause certain vibrations which at an atomic level cause hydrogen atoms to combust in the nearest available place. You just don't know with wizards.

Basically, if you go down to an atomic level, everything in ME can be explained by science. Obviously the Ainur would know how to harness it, as they took part in creating it. This would explain their powers. Knowledge is power. Basically, the Ainu did not use magic, as such, they just knew how to alter things and go between the rules of science. Take Balrogs, for eample. They may have taken part in singing the part of the Music about fire, so they know everything that they made, so they can control fire, to an extent. This might explain why some Ainur have different "powers".

Before you finish reading this post, just spare a thougt for quantum fluctuation, the theory that particles can appear out of nothing, and think, if that is possible, what can't be.

[alatar]

Before you finish reading this post, just spare a thougt for quantum fluctuation, the theory that particles can appear out of nothing, and think, if that is possible, what can't be.
Or is there another level of that reality that we just haven't figured out yet? In The Mirror of Galadriel, Sam professes that he'd like to see a bit of "elf magic." Galadriel isn't exactly sure what he means, as to her, what she does isn't magical at all. So those quantum fluctuations in which something appears seemingly ex nihilo, it just might be that we don't understand (yet) what is really occurring.

And regarding the iPhone Palantíri without the use of satellites: Did the elves tune the stones to a specific wavelength that permitted data transfer across long distances without loss? Could the ability of 'seeing the past' be explained by capturing the radio-like waves emitted at that time from space? Big hurdle, but possible?