Speculation on Smaug and the One Ring

[Sardy]

This topic occured to me while reading Groin Redbeard's "Dragon's Flame, Magical? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=14617)" thread.

It's been written that dragon fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough. For the purposes of this speculation, let's assume that this writing is taking into account the demise of Smaug, and that, had he still lived, Smaug's flame might have indeed been strong enough to destroy the One Ring (or any ring of power, for that matter).

I would like to speculate on Gandalf (and later the Council of Elrond, and anyone else who might be in a position to have input) devising an alternate strategy for destroying the One Ring. Had things gone differently---had Smaug lived---how might things have played out?

Surely, Smaug's potential as a weapon of Sauron is terrifying. But how too might Smaug's own greed be used to the benefit of the Free Peoples? Could a strategy be devised to use Smaug to destroy the One Ring, rather than sending the Fellowship to Mt. Doom?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We must be careful to distinguish between the Rings of Power and the One Ring. Here's the exact quote from "Shadow of the Past", Gandalf speaking:
Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. (my emphasis)
(cross-posted with The Might)

[The Might]

I think that had you read the quotes in that thread more carefully you would hjave had your answer.

If not even Ancalagon the Black (who is as Smaug also dead) would not have been able to melt it then implicitly not Smaug either.
Nice theory though unfortunately wrong.

Had it been plausible on the other hand it might have added another reason for Sauron wanting to have Smaug on his side.

[Sardy]

Thanks for providing the quote---I had missed it. And it does indeed dash my speculative exercise to pieces. :)

While in the depths of speculation, here's another thought: If all of the other Rings of Power were destroyed, how significantly would this diminish the One Ring's ability to dominate? Certainly it could dominate (and embue with great power) the will of it's bearer, but with no other Rings of Power left, it would lose much of it's potential influence over Middle-earth and the Free Peoples.

To take the speculation one step further, would the use of dragon fire (had it existed) to destroy the existing Rings of Power (assuming all could be found) have been a viable (or at least interesting to speculate) strategy?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

To take the speculation one step further, would the use of dragon fire (had it existed) to destroy the existing Rings of Power (assuming all could be found) have been a viable (or at least interesting to speculate) strategy?

Well, if you could persuade the Dragons... "I will give you this treasure if you destroy this Ring." Well, that won't be a Dwarf negotiating with them ;)

It's not that overstretched, anyway; because as we know, three (or four?) of the Dwarven Rings were consummed by the Dragons without any particular intention of destroying them, so it does not seem that stupid theory...

But the point is, that of course the Three Rings, as long as they remained unrevealed, meant an important power for preservation and healing in the hands of the Free Nations. Of course, as you imply, had they been destroyed, probably their works will diminish as well (something like early Fourth Age will come), but at least they won't be turned to evil by Sauron. But, who knows if the "disenchanted" West will have the strength to oppose the evil... Rivendell and Lórien will become only settlements of Elves unprotected by anything more than Elven bows (not that this would be little, even Thranduil had just Elven bows, but it looks pretty bad in comparison to what - who, Gandalf? - says: there is power in Lórien or Rivendell that cannot be beaten unless the Dark Lord came there himself).

[Aganzir]

To take the speculation one step further, would the use of dragon fire (had it existed) to destroy the existing Rings of Power (assuming all could be found) have been a viable (or at least interesting to speculate) strategy?
I think there would have been more cons than pros.

--- if Sauron should come again, then either he would find the Ruling Ring that was lost, or at the best his enemies would discover it and destroy it; but in either case the powers of the Three must then fail and all things maintained by them must fade, and so the Elves should pass into the twilight and the Dominion of Men begin.
The elves weren't too happy that the Three would lose their powers but accepted that the One Ring must be destroyed in order to get rid of Sauron. And as Sauron wasn't wearing the One, he wasn't as dangerous for the bearers of the three as he would have been otherwise.

because as we know, three (or four?) of the Dwarven Rings were consummed by the Dragons without any particular intention of destroying them, so it does not seem that stupid theory...
Why did the dragons destroy the rings in the first place? I would imagine they would have been rather interested in them instead. Accidentally? Or did they think they were of little worth?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Why did the dragons destroy the rings in the first place? I would imagine they would have been rather interested in them instead. Accidentally? Or did they think they were of little worth?

Since there were three (or four? :rolleyes: ) cases of this, then it's most intriguing. I mean, if just one Ring was lost this way, then we could say "one Dwarven Lord simply did not want to give up to the Dragon and so the dragon ate him whole without realising what all parts of the Dwarf he's eating". Comparing this to the scenario of Erebor, we know Thrór & Thráin saved themselves just because of the secret passage. Otherwise, maybe the Ring of Durin's tribe would have met similar fate as the other ones. But with three (or four?) cases of this, I think we must find a diversity in the events that occured, which is really interesting. Like, first Dwarven Lord simply did not want to give up, so the dragon ate him. Second Dwarven Lord and his Ring were baked in a small room. Third Dragon was a clever one and knew about the Ring and wanted the Dwarven Lord to hand it over. But the Dwarf knew that there is no escape and rather than give up the Ring, he threw it (or even himself) to the Dragon's mouth. Fourth Dragon, if there was any, was also clever one and wanted the Ring. But as he killed the bearer and realised the Ring is too small to be put on his finger, he got angry and ate it. Or something like that. It's not particularly diverse, I believe the true stories must have been a far more diverse and interesting. Another good topic for a fan-fiction or an RPG (last days of a Dwarven fortress, objective: carry the Ring away).

[Aganzir]

Or could it be something like Carcharoth devouring the Silmaril...? Evil yet clever creatures seem to have a tendency to eat powerful items.

By the way, Sauron had recovered three of the Seven, so four were destroyed. I had to check as it started to bug me as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Or could it be something like Carcharoth devouring the Silmaril...? Evil yet clever creatures seem to have a tendency to eat powerful items.

Yes, that's very true. Good idea. Although the Dragons seem to be very clever and care about treasures, Carcharoth obviously also did not think at the moment he ate the Silmaril - there is no logic in eating such an object, unless he thought it tastes as good as it shines, though it's said I believe that he did not like the light. So yes, there may be something on this idea.

By the way, Sauron had recovered three of the Seven, so four were destroyed. I had to check as it started to bug me as well.

Good to know. I could have checked it by myself; but my problem is rather that still, even though I know it now, I will forget it till tomorrow. I have experience with this and similar things where you can't actually make any good mnemonic. Hmm... I may try to remember that Sauron had three Dwarven Rings, like the Elves had also Three against him. Yes, maybe that will help. Thanks for looking it up.

[Eönwë]

If not even Ancalagon the Black (who is as Smaug also dead) would not have been able to melt it then implicitly not Smaug either.
I'm just wondering, what about Glaurung?

and who is Ancalagon the Black?

[Aganzir]

I have experience with this and similar things where you can't actually make any good mnemonic.
Wouldn't it have been enough if you'd just decided to remember that nice story about Dwarven kings and the dragons? :p

I'm just wondering, what about Glaurung?

and who is Ancalagon the Black?
Ancalagon was the mightiest of the dragons in Middle-earth (yep, mightier than Glaurung) and also the first to have wings if I remember correctly. Eärendil slew him in the War of Wrath.

[The Might]

Aganzir, although I do share your opinion on who is the mightier dragon I think it is important to point out that it is never clearly mentioned who was the mightiest and one can debate that Glaurung was stronger. That is however another topic.