Was Sauron a Balrog?

[HurinThalion]

Was Sauron a Balrog? Yes or No.

[Aganzir]

No.

Did you only want the answer, or do you want some further explanations about Sauron also?

[alatar]

Here's a link concerning Balrogs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balrog)

And Welcome to the Downs, HurinThalion!

[HurinThalion]

No.

Did you only want the answer, or do you want some further explanations about Sauron also?

Yes further explanation of your standpoint would be appreciated. I guess I should have mentioned that.

[Aganzir]

That "Yes or No" just made me think that you might only want the answer. :)

Both Sauron and the balrogs were maiar, balrogs being spirits of fire (like Arien). There were never that many balrogs, but they had their own, certain characteristics (whips of flame and whatever). Tolkien spoke about balrogs and he spoke about Sauron, but he never even hinted that Sauron might have been a balrog. Usually I don't think that because Tolkien didn't say something it didn't exist, but if Sauron had been a balrog, Tolkien would have said it. It's a thing that has much more to do with the mythology than eg. the characters using bathroom.

[HurinThalion]

That is a valid argument, yes. On the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.

[alatar]

That is a valid argument, yes. On the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.
But wasn't Sauron of Aulë's kin? He was a Maker, not a Whipper. He might have liked to decorate with flames, but can't remember ever reading that he was always wreathed in flame.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You can compare the moments when Sauron is introduced and there are balrogs coming also as a separate group. Sauron is mentioned separate from the other balrogs, so he was not one of them. You might say that it's because he was one of Morgoth's captains, thus an important individual figure, but other good evidence is if you look at Gothmog: he was a leader, like Sauron, but we are told he was a balrog. With Sauron, you never read about such a thing.

In other words, Sauron was a Maia of Aulë - while the Balrogs were, I believe, Maiar of Varda (it is said they were originally like Arien). Saruman was also a maia of Aulë - and Sauron was, I believe, no more a Balrog than Saruman was.

[Aganzir]

TOn the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.
Treebeard and Tom Bombadil and who knows who else are described as the oldest living creatures in Middle-earth or the first ones to be there. Tolkien's use of superlatives is relative.

But wasn't Sauron of Aulë's kin?
Weren't the balrogs of Aulës kin as well?

edit: xed with Legate

[alatar]

And note whereas Balrogs taste like roast chicken, Sauron would taste more feline.

[Boromir88]

Also, I think Legolas' comment about the Balrog in Moria (Durin's Bane) makes it pretty clear that Sauron was not a Balrog:

"It was a Balrog of Morgoth," said Legolas; "of all the elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower."~The Mirror of Galadriel

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.

No. It's never said that he was. Indeed it is said that the Balrogs were first drawn to Melkor: with the strong implication that they turned to him before Arda. They were never of the people of the Valar. Whereas Sauron was a Maia in good standing before he switched sides.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No. It's never said that he was. Indeed it is said that the Balrogs were first drawn to Melkor: with the strong implication that they turned to him before Arda. They were never of the people of the Valar. Whereas Sauron was a Maia in good standing before he switched sides.

Actually this quote is what I originally thought could have been the origin of the question - but only if the "one" were with small "o".

[Aganzir]

Indeed it is said that the Balrogs were first drawn to Melkor: with the strong implication that they turned to him before Arda. They were never of the people of the Valar.
Where's that said? I have somehow got the impression that they were of Aulë's people.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Where's that said? I have somehow got the impression that they were of Aulë's people.

Definitely not Aulë's. I don't know from where I have it, but for some reason I am convinced that they were originally like Arien. To my surprise, though, after trying to look it up, I did not find the quote. Maybe I just don't know where to look, but it's also possible that I am suffering from some unexplainable suggestion.

[Nerwen]

Where's that said? I have somehow got the impression that they were of Aulë's people.

It's in the Valaquenta and in Of the Coming of the Elves.

Definitely not Aulë's. I don't know from where I have it, but for some reason I am convinced that they were originally like Arien. To my surprise, though, after trying to look it up, I did not find the quote. Maybe I just don't know where to look, but it's also possible that I am suffering from some unexplainable suggestion.

Are you thinking of this?

she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service.

And note whereas Balrogs taste like roast chicken, Sauron would taste more feline.

Uh... yeah... whatever you say... :confused:

[Aganzir]

I don't know from where I have it, but for some reason I am convinced that they were originally like Arien.
Me too... And I thought Arien was of Aulë's folk as well. I really have no idea where I've got this impression, maybe it's just something we speculated years ago with a certain downer.

edit: xed with Nerwen. Thanks.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Are you thinking of this?
Oh yes, possibly. I must have made a conclusion based on this a long time ago and it grew to incredible size. Thank you anyway.

Me too... And I thought Arien was of Aulë's folk as well. I really have no idea where I've got this impression, maybe it's just something we speculated years ago with a certain downer.
Hmph. :p Well, that Aulë thing is quite logical - you know, Aulë, forges, fire, earth, lava, these things. I probably thought so as well at first - but later, when I "learned" :rolleyes: that the Balrogs were Varda's, I considered it as much interesting as unlikely, and so that settled it.

[alatar]

Uh... yeah... whatever you say... :confused:
Sorry; must have been a little nutty at that moment. :(

What I obviously meant to write was that Balrogs maintain the same shape/form/appearance whether they're whipping Ungoliant away or fighting Gandalf on the Bridge. Even when wet, Balrogs do not radically change shape. Sauron, on the other hand, had taken many different shapes - some fair (Annatar) and others foul (wolf, Eye, etc).

Clearly horses of different colours.

The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) has Arien as a Maiar of Vána.

[Nerwen]

Sorry; must have been a little nutty at that moment. :(

I was actually rather intrigued by the idea of an Evil Maia taste-test...;)

The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) has Arien as a Maiar of Vána.

It says (in the Silm)

Arien had tended the golden flowers in the gardens of Vána

[Thinlómien]

I'm not claiming anything about the origin of balrogs - except that being the "certain 'downer" mentioned on this thread I think I must say I have thought them to be Aulë's Maiar with no canon evidence - but surely I'm either missing something or then some people on this thread have flaws in their logic. ;)

Arien was a fire spirit, yes. Balrogs were fire spirits, yes. But does it prove they both were originally servants of the same Vala? No, I don't think so - why should it prove that? The fact that they share the element doesn't mean, in my opinion, that they are associated with the same Vala. The Valar are not totally different or opposites of one other. If they are, in some cases, quite similar to one another (just think of Yavanna and Vána and flowers, for example), why couldn't their servants be similar to one other too?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm not claiming anything about the origin of balrogs - except that being the "certain 'downer" mentioned on this thread I think I must say I have thought them to be Aulë's Maiar with no canon evidence - but surely I'm either missing something or then some people on this thread have flaws in their logic. ;)

Hey, which people? :p

If you have read this thread, then certainly not me. For surely at least ten years, I have had a fee opinion that Arien was a Maia of Varda and the Balrogs were also Maiar of Varda. As you can see, from some Yesterday 03:25 PM my beliefs were shaken in their very basis. But you can hardly blame me for developing a misled opinion in my 10 (if you think you are without sin, you may first cast the stone... ;) ).

[Thinlómien]

Me too... And I thought Arien was of Aulë's folk as well. I really have no idea where I've got this impression, maybe it's just something we speculated years ago with a certain downer.Wait a moment... are you claiming that I've said that I think Arien might be one of Aulë's folk? I might have said that about balrogs, but surely not of Arien...?

But you can hardly blame me for developing a misled opinion in my 10 (if you think you are without sin, you may first cast the stone... ).Ok, I won't start throwing stones - after all, when I was 7 or something I was convinced that Tom and Goldberry had a daughter. (I even included her in a picture of the scene at Tom Bombadil's house, and having then read the book myself, about a year later I made some censoring with an eraser... :p)
But watch out for flying stones in the next ww game. ;)

[Aganzir]

Wait a moment... are you claiming that I've said that I think Arien might be one of Aulë's folk? I might have said that about balrogs, but surely not of Arien...?
I think we were talking about fire spirits in general then. Or then we just spoke about balrogs and whether they were of Aulë's folk or not, and I was too quick to jump to conclusions.

[Nerwen]

Calm down, people! It's actually quite logical to assume that

A. Fire-spirits would all work for the same Vala.

and

B. That Vala would be associated with fire in some way (Aulë the Smith, Varda the Star-Kindler).

Just seems to be wrong, that's all.;)

I don't think Tolkien ever said the Balrogs followed any particular Vala (apart from Melkor).

[Thinlómien]

Calm down, people! Oh no, am I again seeming aggressive and heated when I'm merely bantering? :D

It's actually quite logical to assume that
A. Fire-spirits would all work for the same Vala.I can't still see how it is. If we go for other traditional four elements, earth spirits (and probably air spirits too) would not all work for the same Vala, but every one for the Vala who shares the same specific aspect of the element (like plant-inclined earth spirits would got to Yavanna and rock-inclined to Aulë), right? Therefore it would be logical to assume that fire spirits could be divided too.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh no, am I again seeming aggressive and heated when I'm merely bantering? :D
You? Always. :p

I can't still see how it is. If we go for other traditional four elements, earth spirits (and probably air spirits too) would not all work for the same Vala, but every one for the Vala who shares the same specific aspect of the element (like plant-inclined earth spirits would got to Yavanna and rock-inclined to Aulë), right? Therefore it would be logical to assume that fire spirits could be divided too.

Well yes, but that's exactly what was my point before. Aulë did not seem to have any fire spirits. We know only about two of his Maiar, as far as I am aware, and these were some sort of mad craftsmen (and both turned to the Dark Side, which is another issue ;) ). But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

I am not quite sure what Nerwen intended to say with her last post, though. I cannot follow the breaking point of it. What is right and what is wrong, Nerwen? Or is it supposed to say that all is logical, but it's wrong? That's how I understood it, but the formulation is... confusing at least.

[Nerwen]

Sorry for being confusing. It's late here.

I'm saying all is logical, but it's wrong.

[alatar]

Aulë did not seem to have any fire spirits.
Maybe he had one or two dancing around within his forge - no need to cut trees then.


But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?
Melkor and Manwe were brothers but went separate ways. Why can't fire spirits do the same? And what does any of that have to do with Sauron, who was never a fire spirit? Is Peter Jackson's volcanic eye depiction creeping in?

[Aganzir]

But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?
I'm not sure if you're saying that we don't know if Arien was a fire-spirit or whose maia she was... At least I think it was said quite clearly that she was a fire-spirit (see the quote Nerwen provided).
But as for her connection with Vána... Did there need to be more reasons than that the flowers in Vána's gardens enjoyed being watered with the dew of Laurelin?

Maybe he had one or two dancing around within his forge - no need to cut trees then.
One or two Arien-like naked flames dancing there would surely have been more disturbing to Yavanna than some occasional tree-cutting. ;):D

Melkor and Manwe were brothers but went separate ways. Why can't fire spirits do the same?
Were the fire-spirits alike in every way (ie. did Eru "create" them to be some special kind of spirits), or was the only thing they had in common that fire attracted them?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm not sure if you're saying that we don't know if Arien was a fire-spirit or whose maia she was... At least I think it was said quite clearly that she was a fire-spirit (see the quote Nerwen provided).
I am wondering why would a fire spirit (which Arien was, no doubt) belong to Vána, who on first sight did not seem to have anything to do with fire. Now I believe it is clear what I said.

Were the fire-spirits alike in every way (ie. did Eru "create" them to be some special kind of spirits), or was the only thing they had in common that fire attracted them?
I believe the latter. Of course, every Ainu was born only from part of Eru's mind - so these obviously had something to do with the part that knew about fire or similar things. But it was their own choice, the Ainur took on a shape they liked, and simply several of them liked fire and joined the ranks of fire spirits as much as we like Tolkien and joined the Barrow-Downs, although otherwise we may have little or even nothing in common.

[Raynor]

I am wondering why would a fire spirit (which Arien was, no doubt) belong to Vána, who on first sight did not seem to have anything to do with fire.
I don't think that that passage from Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor means that Arien belonged to Vana - only that she did this and that in the gardens of Vana and I don't think that a maia has to belong to a certain vala/valie in order to perform a certain duty. Furthermore, in Myths Transformed it is said:
Now the Sun was designed to be the heart of Arda, and the Valar purposed that it should give light to all that Realm, unceasingly and without wearying or diminution, and that from its light the world should receive health and life and growth. Therefore Varda set there the most ardent and beautiful of all those spirits that had entered with her into Ea, and she was named Ar(i), and Varda gave to her keeping a portion of the gift of Iluvatar so that the Sun should endure and be blessed and give blessing.
...
But Arie rejected Melkor and rebuked him, saying: 'Speak not of right, which thou hast long forgotten. Neither for thee nor by thee alone was Ea made; and thou shalt not be King of Arda. Beware therefore; for there is in the heart of As a light in which thou hast no part, and a fire which will not serve thee

which further underlines the relation between Arien and fire as light, esspecially the Light of Iluvatar, the Imperishable Flame.

[Gwathagor]

My thoughtful contribution to this thread:

Gothmog was Lord of the Balrogs, so if Sauron was a balrog, he would had been subordinate to Gothmog. However, we know that Sauron was NOT subordinate to Gothmog and was Morgoth's lieutenant. Therefore, he could not have been a balrog.


When I saw the thread title, my knee-jerk reaction was just to say "***???" and leave it at that. However, I resisted the temptation to be an irresponsible and flippant thread-basher. Someone had better appreciate the extra effort... :p

[Bregalad]

Sauron was not a balrog! He is a maia yes, and he served Morgoth.
Remember when Sauron tricked the elven smiths to make the rings: he was disguised as good and took the name as Annatar.
You would think an elf would notice a balrog, da'h :P

Then, I don't know, Tolkiens books, they says different...
There was endless of balrogs. But then it was changed to only five balrogs/dragons? Slained by Tuor, Gandalf and... well, don't remember >_<