Character Analysis Thread

[Nazgûl-king]

I thought this would make some interesting discussions; here is the thread to analyze the various characters of Middle-earth. Each week we can choose another character or a specific character relationship (such as the relationship between Merry and Pippin) to study. Would anyone here be interested in such an idea, and if so which character or characters would you guys like to start with?

Edit:

This is as for as I had planned the project:

Week 1: Merry and Pippin
Week 2: The Nazgûl
Week 3: Gandalf and Saruman
Week 4: Boromir and Faramir
Week 5: Frodo, Sam, and Gollum
Week 6: Treebeard
Week 7: Beorn
Week 8: Bilbo Baggins
Week 9: Fëanor
Week 10: Maeglin
Week 11: Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli
Week 12: Gríma Wormtongue
Week 13: Húrin

[Thinlómien]

Even though there probably exists a lot of discussion on those topics on this forum already, why not. It could be interesting. :)

[Boromir88]

Well Thinlo, I don't think many of those threads specifically deal with characters, they just go along with the discussion. I don't know if there's been a "structured" discussion for the characters (like the CbC discussions).

Perhaps you can tell us a bit more, Nazgul-King, as far as how you wanted this to go. Like the first week talk about key hobbit characters? The Fellowship? Elves?...etc

[Nazgûl-king]

Ok, let’s start with the characters Merry and Pippin! Here are some questions to get us started:

1. How do you think the relationship between Merry and Pippin has grown throughout the course of the story?

2. What do you think was the biggest event in their characters development? Why do you think this event caused this development?

3. How do you think their being separated (with Merry in Rohan and Pippin at Gondor) effected their characters development?

4. Merry ends up being the master of Buckland and Pippin the Thain of the Shire, how do you think the things they went through on their journey prepared them for taking these positions and would they have gotten them had they not gone through what they did?

[MatthewM]

No offense Nazgûl-king, but that sounds like I'm taking a test. Where's my blue book?

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Hmm, yes. It does feel sort of like we're being quizzed on how well we can go back and check through facts, and apply them to character development, or something... (Not that I wouldn't do this for fun, being an English major and all :p though I think your questions are a bit too broad.)
But I think MatthewM's frustration could carry over to other 'Downers. Is there any way to restructure this thread so it feels a bit more like discussion? Unless, of course, Nazgul, you actually do want your thread to be run like a literary criticism forum? I'd be up for that, but a lot of other people might not...

[ArathornJax]

What are your general impressions of Merry and Pippin and their role in the story?

I have always thought that Merry and Pippin were extra baggage until they were seized t the Falls of Rauros and taken by the Uruk's there. I think that journey began the transformation of them as characters, or let us as readers see them more in depth. I also think that at this point the wisdom of Gandalf in trusting to friendship proved itself over a great Elf Lord in the company. Here Merry and Pippin allowed Frodo and Sam to be able escape with the Orcs and Uruk's taking Merry and Pippin and high tailing it towards Fangorn.

However, I don't think Merry and Pippin changed that much yet. They have a lot of fun at Isengard and the foolishness of Pippin the Orthanc Stone shows that they are still kinda of treating this as a journey.

I think the other area where they really grew up there experiences from when Pippin looked into the Stone forward. Merry's relationship with Theoden and with Dernhelm climaxing with the stabbing of the Witch King brought tenderness and the horrors of war to him. I think this experience changed Merry and his exposure to Theoden and the army of Rohan brought him leadership experience that he personally needed.

Pippin had his moments in Minis Tirith, especially in saving Faramir. His experience before the Black Gate in killing the Troll and coming to terms with what he thought was his own end, rounded him off.

I think both reflect the sense of a solider going off to war treating it like a holiday or an adventure. Then the realities of it begin to hit and they begin to take their toll on the individual. This can be devestating or refining depending on the support and healing they receive. Merry and Pippin were able to heal and be tempered from their experiences and exposures.

However, one thing that I really like about Merry and Pippin is that though they mature in the story, their base character traits stay the same. The retain their sense of humor and who they are. They are tempered, but they are themselves and that is refreshing I think to see. People go through major struggles yet still remain their positive and refreshing outlook (and humor).

Not sure if that is what people have in mind, but I just kinda of went with what I know of the story, the characters and my own inferences. Overall, I enjoy Merry and Pippin and the role they play in the story.

Edit: I will answer one question that is specific. Thain and Master of Buckland were inheirited positions, and so Merry and Pippin would have received those positions when their fathers passed away. I think their experiences in the War of the Ring refined them and made them ready for their roles. Anything else would be speculation as Tolkien never touched on that aspect.

[Nazgûl-king]

ArathornJax, that is what I had in mind, I had intended for the questions to spark discussion. So anyway, I think their separation with Merry in Rohan and Pippin going to Gondor played a part in their development as well, as it enabled them to kind of branch out a little and find their own individual strengths.

[Lindale]

Ok, let’s start with the characters Merry and Pippin! Here are some questions to get us started:

1. How do you think the relationship between Merry and Pippin has grown throughout the course of the story?

3. How do you think their being separated (with Merry in Rohan and Pippin at Gondor) effected their characters development?


Hmm. You really sound like my English Lit professor, but tis ok, I love my course anyway. :D

Merry and Pippin have been close since the beginning of the book. They conspired with Sam, remember, to find out the whatnots about Frodo and Bilbo? It seems to me that Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Fatty were like a little clique (for want of better term, the thing I wish to use is barkada in my language), but as they needed someone to remain behind in Crickhollow, and since Fatty (who as far as Tolkien was concerned not related to the big powerful families. Tolkien was quite fond of telling stories of the high-and-mighty, generally speaking, wasn't he?)

They show quite a lot of loyalty to Frodo, even at the darkest moments. But it stroked me as a sort of naivety--remember the mushrooms and the bathroom songs? They were fond of their weird cousin Frodo, and more so of the weirder cousin Bilbo. When the Black Riders came, it was a sort of instinct of fear and flight, but good thing they for all their childish naivety held on to their wits.

Skipping this to the Council of Elrond, Gandalf saw, or took a risk anyway, that these two "blokes" would mature--kinda like the risk he took when he persuaded Thorin take Bilbo in The Hobbit. For one, I do not think it was too big a risk that Gandalf took, since when he appeared as Gandalf the White to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, he said something "Their coming is like the falling of little rocks that starts an avalanche." But as aforementioned, even with Treebeard in Isengard they were still childish, especially Pippin with the Palantir.

Now this Palantir incident at the movie, which was a good addition, we see that Merry had at the time more maturity, so to speak, when he asked "Why do you always have to look?" Jackson may have added this to have Merry as a sort of foil for childish Pippin, who had already asserted his childishness in the FotR movie when he played with the arrow in the skeleton that fell, that caused the goblins in Moria to learn of the intruders' presence.

But at the book, he is maybe just like Pippin:

"'A beautiful, restful night!' said Merry to Aragorn. 'Some folk have wonderful luck. He did not want to sleep, and he wanted to ride with Gandalf--and there he goes! Instead of being turned into a stone himself to stand here for ever as a warning.'

"'If you had been the first to lift the Orthanc stone, and not he, how would it be now?' said Aragorn. 'You might have done worse. Who can say?..."

When they parted, Merry left at Rohan and Pippin at Minas Tirith, they both get a sort of whack-on-the-head that the world was not just fun and games. The threats, the Wizard business that they thought were matters of play, they suddenly were torn from their shells.

There was a good point, a good reason, why Theoden wanted Merry to remain behind. He saw the child in Merry, although he did not realize that Merry was clamoring to be treated as a grown-up. When Eowyn, who also is a character who "has to grow up" (but this is debatable, if we do Feminism). So jumping, we can say that during the ride and the battle Merry was suddenly faced, with another character who thought that war is just another game, with the terrible harshness of war. And not just the orcs, he was suddenly with the number-two evil, the Witch king.

Well, to simplify things Tolkien wanted his heroes to win, and Eowyn and Merry, who both had their epiphanies during and after the battle at Pelennor, survived. Eowyn's case is interesting, but let's just leave that at that.

Pippin now. The Palantir incident, and meeting Denethor and putting up with his madness, this contributed to his awakening that he had such potential. He didn't even understand the subtle political strife between Aragorn and Denethor! The meeting with Beregond and Beregond's son provides him company, and if you allow, some fun. A sort of consuelo for the absence of his dear friend Merry.

But even a child will recognize the folly that Denethor's madness implied when he tried to burn Faramir alive. He is jolted to life, faced with a madman, a madman with authority, and he jumps to Gandalf for help, since he knows that he has no power over Denethor. I think it is at this point that Pippin understand the gravity of the whole War of the Ring business, now that he has no more idle time for his fun and games, now that there is no more Merry with whom he cannot laugh.

Ahh, my analysis ends here, I have another paper to do. Adios! :D

[Nazgûl-king]

Sorry it took me so long to update: This time I am going to try things differently, I got the idea for a character analysis from another site and that was how they had it set up but that idea didn’t seem to go over so well here so I'll try a different approach this time:

This week: The Nazgûl

Know by many other names, the nine servants of Sauron use fear as their greatest weapon. They are completely loyal to Sauron, though I wonder what their loyalties were before they were given the nine rings. We know that at least three of the nine were Black Númenóreans and that one of the nine was an Easterling.

In the book Fellowship of the Ring it is said that "at all times they can smell the blood of living things, and they desire and hate it." I find this interesting, and I suppose their hatred for the smell of the blood of living beings could come from the fact that they themselves are not living but are in a state between life and death and thus the smell of the blood of the living torments them. Any thoughts on this?

[Eönwë]

I think both reflect the sense of a solider going off to war treating it like a holiday or an adventure. Then the realities of it begin to hit and they begin to take their toll on the individual. This can be devestating or refining depending on the support and healing they receive. Merry and Pippin were able to heal and be tempered from their experiences and exposures.

Isn't this what it was like for Tolkien?

[ArathornJax]

Indeed I think that Tolkien's experiences in war provided for him a depth that he was able to use with his characters, including Merry and Pippin. An interesting view is too look at how the experiences of each of the Hobbits in terms of how the deal with the after affects of war is similar yet different.

As for he Nazgul, I think their smelling of blood was a catch 22 for them. First, it reminded them of what they were orginally, human and mortal, and for that,they desired blood because they wanted or desired to be human or at least mortal again with all their power and glory back. I think they desire it most of all because they wanted their individual freedom or independance back.
Yet they also hated the smell of blood because it reminded them of what they had given up to obtain the power, wealth and control that they had had while mere mortals. Imagine obtaining everything that the world says you should want, power, wealth, dominion, strength and glory, and then becoming a mere servant to the one who gave it to you. Living in servititude and living between life and death. I also think they hated it because they had rejected this life and had become purly in the control of Sauron. That would gall someone who in the past had been a formidable leader, even one of the key leaders of their day and they eventually fell, one by one under the dominion and control of Sauron. Imagine Ar-Pharazon as the Witch-King. There would have been some desire to have that power back independant of Sauron, and also hatred that he was in servititude to Sauron. Not sure I am making sense as it is late so I'll stop and retire.

Cheers!

[Groin Redbeard]

I love Aragorn's description of the Nazgul on Weathertop, so much is revealed to us about them.

The one thing that I find most interesting about them is that they do not see very well in the daylight, and that they do well in the darkness, in fear. This I thought was a major draw back to them, and possibly one fault that they had in battle, since they can smell better than see.

[Nazgûl-king]

Ok, I have decided to switch weeks 3 and 4 so...

This Week: Boromir and Faramir

I find the relationship between the two brothers to be quite interesting; one of the points I find interesting is the fact that their mother's death, while detaching Denethor from the family, only seems to have drawn Boromir and Faramir closer together. The reason for this I think is, that when faced with grief Denethor seems to keep to himself and try to deal with it alone, while Boromir and Faramir seem more likely to turn to others for strength, as when their mother died Boromir and Faramir drew closer after their mothers death, most likely I think because they turned toward each other for strength, while Denethor tried to deal with the loss alone. I also find it interesting how, even though Denethor quite openly favored Boromir there was no jealousy or rivalry between the two brothers. So what are your thoughts on the sons of Denethor?

[MatthewM]

I have been working on an essay entitled "A Defense of Character: Boromir" (www.swordofboromir.com) for over two years now, and one section of my work is entitled "Boromir and Faramir", discussing the incredible relationship of the Sons of Denethor. Here is a part of that section...

In quoting The Lord of the Rings, I use the Houghton Mifflin 1994 paperback edition, with Revised “Note on the Text” by Douglas A. Anderson with the 2002 New Line Cinema cover design.

I. Boromir and Faramir

When speaking of Boromir, it might be hard to keep the name of Faramir away, and vice versa. So in that respect I shall speak first of the two sons of Gondor. They were brothers, warriors, and best friends. Although we never read a direct conversation between them, we can tell by the way each talked of one another how much they valued their companionship. Better evidence beyond the text of The Lord of the Rings lies in The Return of the King: Appendix A under Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion:

“Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father’s favour or for the praise of men. It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.” (p. 1032)

This description of brotherly love and unity devoid of all jealousy is a profound and bold statement about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir. Being a child, it is easy to get jealous or scornful towards another, especially a sibling. Tolkien informs us by this passage that those negative qualities were not present in the growing relationship of the two, apparently regardless that Boromir was “bossy” (Letters, p. 323). Taking into account Boromir’s status in Gondor as its finest warrior (which in my opinion made bossiness an alright trait), great humbleness must have been displayed by Boromir for him to believe that not one in Gondor could challenge his little brother. This bond is essential to understand as one thinks of the dream that came to both Boromir and Faramir, and the claiming of the long journey to Rivendell by Boromir.

Despite the love the brothers had for one another, Tolkien makes clear the differences between Boromir and Faramir:

“Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother’s.” (Appendix A, p. 1032)

Concerning appearance an anomaly presents itself in The Return of the King when Pippin first see’s Denethor’s face as he is reminded of Aragorn and not so much of Boromir (p. 738). None the less, Boromir and Faramir must have borne somewhat similar looks to their father as Appendix A reads. Concerning personality, it might be pondered on how the brother’s had such a wonderful relationship if they were so unlike in the above regards. The answer seems to lie in Faramir’s accepting and humble personality, as he questions Frodo on Isildur’s Bane:

“If it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and the fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it. Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.” (The Two Towers, p. 656)

Although not directly showing how humble we learn Faramir to be, this passage tells us how well Faramir truly knew his older brother and was used to such things. In the Letters, Tolkien writes that Faramir was “accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air” (p. 323). “Rash” and “anxious” catch as somewhat negative (yet human) terms to Boromir’s personality, and it is understood here that Faramir knew how to handle his brother in these certain situations in which Boromir took on these normal human traits.

[skip spence]

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.

Taking into account Boromir’s status in Gondor as its finest warrior (which in my opinion made bossiness an alright trait), great humbleness must have been displayed by Boromir for him to believe that not one in Gondor could challenge his little brother.

To be fair, when it's said that Boromir was of like mind, it means that he too thought that no one could rival himself, not that no one could rival his kid brother. As heroic Boromir might have been, humility wasn't one of his chief traits.

[MatthewM]

To be fair, when it's said that Boromir was of like mind, it means that he too thought that no one could rival himself, not that no one could rival his kid brother. As heroic Boromir might have been, humility wasn't one of his chief traits.

I disagree - Boromir believed nobody could rival his brother.

"It proved otherwise at the test" - the proof is right there. The test was the temptation of the Ring. Boromir tried to take it, thus he failed the test. Faramir opted to let Frodo go. Thus he passed the test.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Like skip, I've always understood the line about Boromir being of like mind as a tongue-in-cheek reference to Boromir's high opinion of himself. I can see that the words can be interpreted differently if a reader wishes to see them more positively in regard to Boromir, but I never read that meaning from them. It is precisely the roundabout way of expression which is so slyly accurate!

[MatthewM]

It seems to me that after Tolkien had just talked about the love the brothers had for one another and the lack of jealousy present between the two, that it only makes sense for Tolkien to be speaking about Boromir believing that nobody could rival his brother. The other meaning, although I can see how you get it, just doesn't fit for me, given because I've never thought it before and also given what Tolkien was just talking about prior to saying it.

[skip spence]

"It proved otherwise at the test" - the proof is right there. The test was the temptation of the Ring. Boromir tried to take it, thus he failed the test. Faramir opted to let Frodo go. Thus he passed the test.

Still I'm afraid you're mistaken... Let me break it down. This is how you've interpreted the quote:


Faramir thinks that Boromir is the top man in Gondor.

Boromir thinks that Faramir is the top man in Gondor.


To say "it proved otherwise at the test" is to say that what they thought beforehand didn't turn out to be true. But to say that both were mistaken wouldn't make any sense in the context of the story. Who then was the top man in Gondor? It must be someone else.

If you read the passage as I (and Estelyn) do however it makes perfect sense to say "Yet it proved otherwise at the test":


Faramir thinks that Boromir is the top man in Gondor.

Boromir thinks that Boromir is the top man in Gondor.


It proved otherwise because Faramir passed the test his elder brother failed, like your said yourself. They were both wrong: Faramir, not Boromir, was the unrivalled one.

[skip spence]

I'm going to cook some dinner now but later tonight I think I will write a little bit about Boromir. I understand that you like this character a lot and feels that he's been misunderstood. I agree completely.

[Boromir88]

Nice stuff on Boromir. :D

I would just like to add a couple things. Boromir seems to catch a lot of flack for being "weak" and falling to the Ring's temptation, but when you look at the person he was, he is very admirable, and actually reaches a level of maturity not many people are able to do. That is his acceptance of personal responsibility.

Let's say Jim and Kim fail a test. Jim blames the "F" on the teacher, on the kid sitting in front with the distracting red hair, on the "tough" questions...blames everyone (and everything) but himself. Kim on the other hand realizes perhaps she didn't study enough, perhaps she didn't get a good nights sleep...etc. The bottomline is she knows she is to blame for failing her test. She has accepted personal responsibility.

Other characters like Grima and Gollum all fall short of redemption because they constantly blame others for their misfortunes. Grima blames Saruman for "making" him kill Lotho:
"You told me to; you made me do it," he hissed.~The Scouring of the Shire
He blames Saruman for being unable to "leave" him (and Gandalf tells Grima to "Do it!" then):
The beggar turned and slouched past whimpering: "Poor old Grima! Poor old Grima! Always beaten and cursed. How I hate him! I wish I could leave him!"
"Then leave him!" said Gandalf.~Many Partings

Gollum blames Deagol for Deagol's own death. Gollum's justification was it was "his birthday" and Deagol "ought to have given it" to him. The only actions we control are our own, and these two are never able to accept the responsibility for their own actions.

Boromir on the other hand does. He first blames trying to take the Ring from Frodo on the "madness" that consumed him. I'll note that Boromir is actually telling the truth, the Ring did fill him with "madness." However, on his deathbed he no longer blames the Ring, but he accepts responsibility, and accepts the consequences of his actions:
"I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid."~The Departure of Boromir
He not only admits to Aragorn what he did, but he realizes he is to blame for what he tried to do ("I am sorry"),and he accepts the consequences of his actions ("I have paid.")

Coming to that realization that you are personally to blame for your own failings is something extremely difficult to do (I'll admit there's lots of times when I like to throw the blame at others). It is because of this, though, that I believe Boromir dies a much better man...well...than anyone else really.

[Bêthberry]

Sorry to interrupt this Boromir-love-in, but I've had a chance to read this thread from the start and have a few questions about the Nazzies.


This week: The Nazgûl

Know by many other names, the nine servants of Sauron use fear as their greatest weapon. They are completely loyal to Sauron, though I wonder what their loyalties were before they were given the nine rings. We know that at least three of the nine were Black Númenóreans and that one of the nine was an Easterling.

In the book Fellowship of the Ring it is said that "at all times they can smell the blood of living things, and they desire and hate it." I find this interesting, and I suppose their hatred for the smell of the blood of living beings could come from the fact that they themselves are not living but are in a state between life and death and thus the smell of the blood of the living torments them. Any thoughts on this?

Okay, other than having to fight desperately against remembering that it was the Spanish Inquisition who used fear as their greatest weapon, or as one of their greatest weapons, or as among their greatest weapons, I find this trait bloody interesting. It reminds me of course of vampires, who are also trapped between life and death and whose taste for blood is a torment. And I cannot recall there being any discussion here on the Downs of the Wraiths as in any way similar to vampires. (Of course, I haven't read all the threads and so I could have missed it!) The only specific vampire reference I can recall is that of Luthien.

Anyhow, Nazgûl-king, can you give us a more precise reference for this quotation? Much as I love FotR, I don't have time to reread all of it searching for this quotation. And I really would like to see how far to extend this similarity.

[skip spence]

Boromir was the captain of the White Tower, proud and strong, and a born leader and champion. He had a strong sense of duty, and his main duty, as he understood it, was to protect Minas Tirith and serve his father. And much thanks to him, Gondor had been able to fend off the attacks from the east so far. He had great faith in his people's ability to defend themselves, but the enemies of Gondor always seemed to come in greater numbers and strenght, while the list of allies was ever shortening. Where were the elves? Nowhere to be seen. What about other men? They were either fighting for Sauron or busy defending themselves. The Dwarves? You got to be kidding! From his perspective Gondor stood alone. And he knew very well that they eventually would fall unless they recieved aid. Sauron was just too strong, he knew this. He was desperate, or else he wouldn't have left Gondor and made the long and perilous journey to Rivendell begging for help.

Here in Rivendell he learns that the One has been found and is in the hands of the wise. He is told that Sauron's victory would be complete the very moment the ring is back on his finger, and that he desperately seeks to win it back. He's also told that Sauron's greatest fear is that the ring will be used against him which would seriously threaten his plans for world domination.

Then, to his amazement, Galdalf and Elrond suggest that the midget uhm hobbit Frodo should go to Mordor and throw the ring into the Crack of Doom (that name always cracks me up hehe). A fool's hope Gandalf calls it. Yet Galdalf is a Maia who was present at the Great Music, and he has a profound understanding of the designs of Eru. Gandalf knows this is their best hope. But for Boromir this hope is indeed a fool's hope. He has spent his life within sight of the mountains of Mordor and knows that no one can have any hope of getting within sight of Mount Doom , let alone reaching the Crack of Doom. From his point of view, they are just going to hand the ring over to the enemy. And from his point of view of course, this is utter madness. Maybe they can't use the ring, he can accept this, but why throw it away? At the very least they should take it to the vaults of Minas Tirith - then at least they would have a fighting chance.

When the counsel decides that Frodo must seek to destroy the ring, he accompanies them, partly because he wants to do what he can to help, partly because his home lies south, but mostly because he hopes to convince the party to come with him to Minas Tirith. At Parth Galen, where a decision must be made, he must have been torn apart inside. One the one hand he has sworn to protect Frodo, his companion, and it would be completely against his principles to use force and take the ring from him. On the other hand he believes that his father would have wanted him to take the ring to him, by any means possible, and he also firmly believes that Frodo is doomed to fail if if tries to destroy the ring. Thus, he makes a desperate attempt to convince Frodo to come with him, but when that doesn't work he's finally overcome by the temptation of the ring. When Frodo escapes, he finally understands the full truth behind the warnings from Gandalf, Elrond and Aragorn; he understands that he did wrong because of the ring, and that the same thing would happen to anyone who tried to wield it. In his life he was a great man, and he died with his honour intact.

So put yourself in his shoes. Would you have acted any differently? Boromir certainly wasn't an evil man. Perhaps he was too proud, but he always did what he thought was right and what he deemed to be in the best interest of his home country Gondor.

[Mithalwen]

Jim blames the "F" on the teacher, on the kid sitting in front with the distracting red hair...

Yeah red-heads are the only discriminated-against minority not protected by law ...we get blamed for everything... :rolleyes::p

*hoping from some solidarity will protect her from digression skwerls, because they are a bit ginger too... *

[Nazgûl-king]

Sorry to interrupt this Boromir-love-in, but I've had a chance to read this thread from the start and have a few questions about the Nazzies.

Okay, other than having to fight desperately against remembering that it was the Spanish Inquisition who used fear as their greatest weapon, or as one of their greatest weapons, or as among their greatest weapons, I find this trait bloody interesting. It reminds me of course of vampires, who are also trapped between life and death and whose taste for blood is a torment. And I cannot recall there being any discussion here on the Downs of the Wraiths as in any way similar to vampires. (Of course, I haven't read all the threads and so I could have missed it!) The only specific vampire reference I can recall is that of Luthien.

Anyhow, Nazgûl-king, can you give us a more precise reference for this quotation? Much as I love FotR, I don't have time to reread all of it searching for this quotation. And I really would like to see how far to extend this similarity.


It is from the chapter A Knife in the Dark, on page 214 of the version of the book that I have. It is said by Aragorn after Frodo hase been stabbed, and when Merry asks Aragorn if the Black Riders could see. Hope that helps you!

[MatthewM]

skip spence, you are right, Boromir is my favorite character and everything that you explained in your last post is what I have been saying for quite some time now, and I'm glad you feel the same way about him. My whole essay is in defense of Boromir, because all too often people will deem him "evil" because they have no knowledge of his circumstances. Most of which you have pointed out.

I know if I were in Boromir's shoes I would have acted the same way. He was with four little people that he wasn't even sure truly existed until the Council, one ragged guy who claimed his country's rule (in turn supplanting his father), an elf and dwarf (two races Boromir had probably little to no communication with in his life), and this wizard guy who came as he pleased to Gondor to browse their libraries and who tried to tell Denethor how to rule things. So, as Captain General of my country, the most important warrior of Gondor, I would have acted the same exact way as he did. He did what he thought was right, and he did it with responsibility. Indeed, he died with his honor and greatness intact.

I suppose you could be right about the test quote- although it's still going to take awhile to sink that one in my thick skull. I get that Boromir was "overly" proud, and some see that as negative. I don't. You have to be bossy and proud in my opinion to be a strong leader of Man's greatest armies. Look at Ulysses S. Grant- would the Union have won the Civil War if Ulysses didn't push and push regardless of bodies lost? If he did not push for Unconditional Surrender, would the Union still have been united? Doubt it. I get ragged on for my proudness all the time. I care not!

Boro88- Nice comparisons.

[Bêthberry]

So put yourself in his shoes.

Of course, those of us who are hobbits might politely decline this command as an unnecessary encumbrance.


Coming to that realization that you are personally to blame for your own failings is something extremely difficult to do (I'll admit there's lots of times when I like to throw the blame at others). It is because of this, though, that I believe Boromir dies a much better man...well...than anyone else really.

It is interesting to consider that, in a story which in part is devoted to "the gift of man", we actually have so few characters dying other than the unnumbered many unidentified foot soldiers of both sides and some hobbits, Saruman and Grima in The Scouring of the Shire.

There's the Witch King, to whom no possibly of redeption is depicted. And Denethor himself who is usually accounted mad and therefore not fully responsible.

We have Gollem, whose final leap is the quintessential conundrum of the story. We have Frodo, who apparently dies in the Undying Lands, although of course his tragedy is that he blames himself all too much. (This could be debated I suspect.)

And in the Appendix we have Aragorn's heroic, idealised death, chosen, and not left to the sorry decline of infirmity. And then Arwen's sorrowful, lonely, achingly sad experience of the grim, private reality of death.

No, I'm not sure we have enough examples to justify saying that Boromir dies the better death.

Thanks, Naz, for the reference. It is so nice to be able to rely on the kindness of strangers and those who reread Tolkien constantly. :)

[ArathornJax]

I think that Boromir is a very tragic figure in LOTR and has many good qualities, yet he is very human. I believe he is very human because of the weaknesses that open him up to being tempted by the ring. The ring plays on his desire to protect his city/country/people and on his own ego, his desire for personal glory. Thus like many of us, he is very noble in many ways, yet his ego also leads to temptation and mistakes.
Boromir is also valiant, brave, courageous, and helpful. He looks after others and basically lives up to a very chivalrous code (as we see at the attempt at the Redhorn among one example). So in the end, it is his human weaknesses that leads him to yield to the enticings of the ring. He quickly realizes what he has done, and then gives his life in defended Merry and Pippin. Before dying he confesses his error to Aragorn, and then surrenders up his life.

One thing that many people fail to realize also, is the role that Boromir as a character plays to the plot. Though the actions of the day when Boromir tried to seize the ring and its consequences are seen as evil with the breaking of the Fellowship, it is really an unhappy day. The day is unhappy because of the death of the noble Boromir, but those the events of the day seem evil, they result in the greater good. Frodo escapes Boromir (and thus Sauron twice) and leaves to Mordor with Sam in which eventually the ring will be destroyed. Merry and Pippin are taken, but eventually escape and come to Treebeard and the Ents and aid in rousing them to action against Saruman. This also leads to Merry stabbing the Witch King and Pippin saving Faramir. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli reunite with Gandalf the White and free Theoden from Wormtongue's influence and control. This allows Rohan to defeat the armies of Saruman and then go to Gondor's aid via several directions. Thus in a way, all of this would not have happen, even the final victory, if Boromir had not given in to his temptation for glory and protection of himself and his people and thus resulting in the Breaking of the Fellowship. I like to think that not only is there a ballad or two made after the War of the Ring in rememberance of Boromir, and of his valiant and noble deeds.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One could actually say that by his death at that particular moment, Boromir saved Gondor and Minas Tirith. If the Fellowship had not broken that day and Boromir had lived, Aragorn would either have gone to Mordor with Frodo or he would have gone to Minas Tirith with Boromir. Though Rohan might have been stirred into action by Gandalf after his return, any road Aragorn took but the one to Dunharrow would NOT have sent him on the Paths of the Dead, to eventually stop the Black Fleet from coming up the Anduin and turning the battle of the Pellenor into a resounding defeat. We are regularly reminded in LotR that chance "as it is called" is not so random a thing as it seems. The board on which the game is set has many pieces in motion, and what seems like the untimely loss of a knight too early in the game can actually lead to the final checkmate. If Boromir had known what would happen as a result of his death at Parth Galen, I suspect he would have done whatever was necessary to achieve that end; if he believed, like his father, that the protection of Gondor was the only hope of the West, he would have laid down his own life to ensure it. That he gave his life in defending Merry and Pippin without any knowledge of a later good that would come of it showed that he was genuinely noble at heart -- moreso, I think, than his father. He could have wallowed in despair but did not; he pulled himself together and did his duty, a test of heart and will with no promise of greater glory, a trial his father could not pass.

[ArathornJax]

I was reading in Scull and Hammond's A Reader's Companion on Boromir and found an interesting point. As I stated, one of the things I like about Boromir is that he is very human. He desires the ring for his own glorification (ego) and justifies it by claiming to want to defend his city, people and country. For me Gandalf already realized back in Hobbiton that this is the danger of the ring according to the weakness of the person who has it or seeks it. Gandalf states:
"Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good."

The Ring attacks Boromir through his desires to lead, protect, and to seek his own glory. We see that when he says to Frodo that "True-hearted Men, they will not be corrupted. We men of Minis Tirith have been staunch through long years of trial."

He then goes on to say ""We do not desire the power of wizard-lords, only strength to defend ourselves, strength in just cause. . . The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory. What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!"

The quote is long, but fits Fair Use Guidelines and shows that the Ring is tempting Boromir first by having him see himself using the Ring to defend and lead his people to victory against their enemy, Sauron. His own ego comes in when he appeals to the notion of what a great leader could do like Aragorn, and if he refuses why not Boromir? The Ring appeals to his view of himself as becoming so great that not only would he drive the hosts of Mordor, but he would have ALL men flocking to his banner for him to command.

Now my point in bringing this up is not to attack Boromir. As I've stated I like the guy and think in someways he is one of the most human characters in the trilogy. I also believe he was fated to go on the quest and fated to be tempted so that the Fellowship could achieve its end. However, I wonder if this is how Sauron tempted some of the Nine in terms of getting them to accept their ring of power? Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

So, would Boromir have been one of the Nine had he lived so many years ago? I would love to hear your thoughts on this as I could see Sauron going after Boromir to make him one of his Nine IF Boromir had been alive at the time. Would Boromir have given in? I'm not sure on that, but I would hope that in the same way that when the temptation was removed with the ring, he quickly gained his rational thought back, and returned to his noble acts and done his duty as he did with Merry and Pippin. I would hope in the past that he would have done the same.

[MatthewM]

Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

"You passed through the Hidden Land, said Faramir, but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said." -The Two Towers


So, would Boromir have been one of the Nine had he lived so many years ago?

No way.

On a side note, isn't this thread supposed to be talking about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir? Everybody seems to be isolating Boromir here.

[Bêthberry]

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

"You passed through the Hidden Land, said Faramir, but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said." -The Two Towers

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you mean.

Are you saying it was Galadriel who instigated Boromir's downfall rather than Boromir's own pride? Are you implying that she was somehow implicated in the Breaking of the Fellowship? Or are you suggesting this is Faramir's interpretation of events, more of his hero worship of his older brother?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Faramir may have confirmed the apparently popular belief that Men do not go through the Golden Wood unchanged -- the Rohirrim also have that belief: "Few escape her nets," says Eomer -- but Aragorn's comment points out the error often in it:

"Say not unscathed, but if you say unchanged, then maybe you will speak the truth... But lore wanes in Gondor, Boromir, if in the city of those who once were wise they now speak evil of Lothlorien."

and

"Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

And Sam later puts his finger on it:

"I don't know about perilous," said Sam. "It strikes me that folk take their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she's so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame."

One cannot in any way blame Galadriel for awakening the peril in Boromir's own heart; it was already there, and she in no way put it there. She was, perhaps, involved with that awakening, possibly because Boromir saw in her a strength he himself did not possess -- ultimately, the strength to resist the lure of the Ring. As Sam also says, "it's my opinion that in Lorien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted." Perhaps in the testing of his heart, Boromir saw in Galadriel the strength of someone who wields an Elven Ring, not clearly realizing that this is what he saw. But perhaps he suspected, or at least entertained the possibility that Galadriel bore one of the Three -- how else could she have such strength and power in her? (a rhetorical question, of course) -- and that made him fully realize that the Ring would give him the strength he needed to protect Gondor and vanquish its great Enemy.

Even so, in the end, he acquitted himself. He could have chosen to continue to pursue Frodo, like another Gollum, until he tracked him down and got the Ring from him. Faramir could have taken the Ring from Frodo by force. They did not. At the last, they resisted the promises and lies of the Ring, went against what they both knew would be the will of their father, and did their greater duty: as a servant and steward of Gondor and those who looked to her for aid. They surpassed their father, who held his duty as being to Gondor alone, and ultimately, he betrayed his own office because he would not accept that it required him to give up his rulership to a rightful heir of the royal line. Denethor believes that Boromir would have "brought him a mighty gift," but I think that he did not know his son quite as well as he thought. Boromir could have pressed on, seized the Ring, and attempted to bring it to his father, but even before his death, he had turned aside from that path. I believe that when he realized what he had done in attempting to take the Ring from Frodo, he saw himself in a mirror and did not like what he saw. He understood that the real peril was the Ring and its lies, and turned away from it. He did not reject it with the seeming ease of Faramir (and I say seeming because I think Faramir struggled with this much more than we saw in the story) -- but he did reject it; it was not simply removed from his grasp. The evidence of this is in his dying words: "I have paid." He knew he had done wrong, and did what he could to right his "sin." If Boromir had survived the battle that day, he would have had to answer to his father for letting the Ring out of his grasp when he eventually came to Minas Tirith. And I suspect that on that day, Denethor would have felt disappointed and betrayed by both his sons.

Just my two cents, as always.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for those two cents worth, Ibrîniðilpathânezel--more than two cents' worth I would say. You've picked some of the very quotes I would have from the text to explain Galadriel's power. :)

However, I was more interested in what MatthewM was implying in response to the quote he gave from ArathornJax, particularly since he substituted Galadriel for AJ's original question of Sauron's MO.



Originally Posted by ArathornJax
Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-




This was AJ original question:


However, I wonder if this is how Sauron tempted some of the Nine in terms of getting them to accept their ring of power? Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?



If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine. :eek:

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think? :(

[MatthewM]

I'm well aware of those quotes, Ibrîniðilpathânezel, but I was making a point. Galadriel did everything that AJ's question asked. She offered Boromir a solution to his want to do good and save his people. We aren't told that flat out, because Boromir does not openly say what Galadriel offered him when she tested all of them with her mind. One can safely assume, however, that is was the command of the Ring, in turn saving Gondor and his people.


However, I was more interested in what MatthewM was implying in response to the quote he gave from ArathornJax, particularly since he substituted Galadriel for AJ's original question of Sauron's MO.

I wasn't saying it was Galadriel's fault that Boromir fell to the Ring. Yet, I can't help but think what would have happened if The Fellowship hadn't passed through Lorien. Am I implying that Galadriel had a hand in the Breaking of the Fellowship? Yes, sure. For it was only after Lorien that Boromir's lust was really awoken, regardless if he carried it with him since the Council. It was never made apparent until The Great River - after the tempting of Galadriel. I was not speaking through Faramir's view, because it was not just Faramir's view that Men came out of Lorien unchanged. It was Boromir's as well, along with the rest of Gondor.




If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine. :eek:
Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think? :(

There would be a huge difference, in my opinion, in being tested by a virtuous Elf lady (even if she is suspicious) and being tested by the Dark Lord. No, I do not believe Boromir would have fell to be one of the Nine. That kind of question really is not going to lead anywhere, really...it is so hypothetical and I think what I think, others think what they think.

Again, the discussion is supposed to be about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir, and everyone continues to isolate Boromir.

[ArathornJax]

In speaking of both Faramir and Boromir, this quote by Gandalf at Minis Tirith to Pippin about the Lord Denethor I have found interesting:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best."

If Denethor's heritage is from Westernesse (mixed with other houses since coming to Middle Earth) and in him the blood of Westernesse runs true, and it also runs true in Faramir, then what did Tolkien mean that it did not do so in Boromir? Does this account for some of the differences between Faramir and Boromir? How did Faramir's blood run true but how did Boromir not run true? Thoughts would be appreciated as I am thinking on this since I read it last night.

[Gordis]

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine. :eek:

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think? :(

I do agree whole-heartedly with Bêthberry. I have little doubt that Boromir would have become one of the Nine, had he lived back in the mid-Second age. He was a great man, seeking power and glory, he needed the Ring to save his country - so he wouldn't have refused the offer. Moreover, please note, that unlike Boromir, the future nazgul had no idea what kind of Rings they were offered and most likely they didn't even know that it was Sauron who was offering them (at least it applies to Numenorean nazgul). The Elves were most secretive about the Rings - they never told the Numenoreans what all this conflict with Sauron was about. Not even Ar-Pharazon heard about the Rings - so we can be pretty sure about those before him.
The future nazgul were men of the ilk of Tar-Aldarion and Isildur and Boromir and Aragorn - that's why Sauron went to such lengths to entice them. And he succeeded.

[MatthewM]

In speaking of both Faramir and Boromir, this quote by Gandalf at Minis Tirith to Pippin about the Lord Denethor I have found interesting:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best."

If Denethor's heritage is from Westernesse (mixed with other houses since coming to Middle Earth) and in him the blood of Westernesse runs true, and it also runs true in Faramir, then what did Tolkien mean that it did not do so in Boromir? Does this account for some of the differences between Faramir and Boromir? How did Faramir's blood run true but how did Boromir not run true? Thoughts would be appreciated as I am thinking on this since I read it last night.

AJ, all due respect- it's spelt Minas Tirith.

As to your question- it is scientifically/biologically impossible that Boromir would not have the same blood running through his veins as Denethor and Faramir. That quote has given many people questions but the fact must be that Tolkien was talking about the personage of the three characters, not physical blood. Boromir was a true Numenorean in everything but mind. He did not really have the mental qualities that Faramir had. That is what that quote means.

[Bêthberry]

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?



I do agree whole-heartedly with Bêthberry. I have little doubt that Boromir would have become one of the Nine, had he lived back in the mid-Second age. He was a great man, seeking power and glory, he needed the Ring to save his country - so he wouldn't have refused the offer. Moreover, please note, that unlike Boromir, the future nazgul had no idea what kind of Rings they were offered and most likely they didn't even know that it was Sauron who was offering them (at least it applies to Numenorean nazgul). The Elves were most secretive about the Rings - they never told the Numenoreans what all this conflict with Sauron was about. Not even Ar-Pharazon heard about the Rings - so we can be pretty sure about those before him.
The future nazgul were men of the ilk of Tar-Aldarion and Isildur and Boromir and Aragorn - that's why Sauron went to such lengths to entice them. And he succeeded.

Let me just clarify something about what I meant, as I certainly don't wish to cast any spurious charges at Galadriel. From my reading, I would not say that Galadriel was in any way responsible for Boromir's fall. Certainly she tested men by showing them something true about themselves, possibly some sort of desire or feltwish that they were unaware of and which could influence them unseemingly. And so she offers men the chance to become aware of their own weaknesses and proclivities. I think those quotations which Ibrin provides give a very clear sense that Galadriel was not at fault for planting evil ideas in people's minds. The story is full of evidence of Boromir's rashness, pride, vanity, along with his many sterling qualities before he ever meets up with the Lady of Lothlorien.

There is a point, however, where I do agree with Gordis and it is in this: since Boromir failed Galadriel's test and did not take heed of his own pride and vanity, he would also have been a very likely candidate to fall to the wiles of Sauron, who of course never identified himself as Evil Incarnate in his efforts to entrap the Nine. Many can no doubt avoid temptation when it knocks them over the head (if they wish), but not so many can easily recognise the siren call when it is cunningly whispered. I think Fordim ran an RPG about this very topic, which now rests in Elvenhome: Shadow of the West (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11357). rpg of course aren't 'canon' but they do explore a topic in interesting ways and I think this game shows particularly how a powerful, well intentioned man could fall to the Dark Emissary.


And I think that Gandalf's words about Faramir and Boromir, which ArathornJax quotes, are meant metaphorically to refer to Faramir's mental state as the true heir. I think it is fairly clear what Gandalf's thoughts are about the two sons.

Although I must here admit that I am more prone to spelling the White City Minus Tirith, as I have this unfortunate reading stuck in mind about a place referred to in this august forum as Minus Teeth. :Merisu:

[Gordis]

Curious that you have posted the link to the "Shadow of the West", Bethberry, as I have (quite independently) spent three evenings reading this RPG. I have just finished. Great story: I loved all of it but the very ending...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In a weird way, it is possible for Boromir to have "less true" blood than his brother. I remember, oh, so very long ago, the introduction to genetics we were given in biology class back in high school. Using a simpler genetic structure, the teacher showed how certain traits pass from parents to children, and how, depending on the parents' own genetic structure, it's possible for one child to show all the dominant genes while another child shows all the recessive. If the characteristics of Numenorean blood to which Gandalf refers are carried in the genes, it's possible (depending on the genes of Denethor and Finduilas and the ancestors of both) for Faramir to have those traits inherent to pure Numenorean blood, and for Boromir to have more of those inherent to their non-Numenorean ancestors. Just thinking along rather peculiar lines. :D

That said, I do tend to think Gandalf was speaking metaphorically rather than literally, but one never knows. :)

[MatthewM]

I think it is fairly clear what Gandalf's thoughts are about the two sons.


Well obviously he prefered Faramir, for Faramir was the "wizard's pupil" (nothing wrong with that) but I do not think he disliked Boromir at all. Sure, Boromir called him out on a few things, such as when Gandalf could not think of the password to Moria. There's nothing wrong with that...this guy who has been all over the place and knows so many tricks and spells can't open this door, and this foul pool is really getting to me. What gives? I would have called him out on it too. If Gandalf was so understanding, like we think he probably was, he would let it slide I'm sure.

It's also made very apparent that Gandalf showed true pity towards Boromir. After he returned from the grave and found Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli he said to them upon hearing of Boromir's fall-

"Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad.

Even Gandalf knew Boromir was a lord of men, and that he passed the test in the end.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel, I do not have enough knowledge of genes and science to take you up on this, but I must say that Gandalf must have been talking metaphorically. There's no way Boromir and Faramir didn't share the same blood.

[Gordis]

Ibrîniðilpathânezel, I do not have enough knowledge of genes and science to take you up on this, but I must say that Gandalf must have been talking metaphorically. There's no way Boromir and Faramir didn't share the same blood.

All siblings share the same blood - but that doesn't mean they must be identical twins. Ibrin is 100% right - genes may be expressed or not. Genotype is one thing, phenotype is another: thus brothers can be (and often are) very unlike, both in appearance and in character. And even the Numenoreans from the line of Elendil were not all alike: we are told in UT that Aragorn most resembled Elendil himself, as well as Isildur’s son Elendur, while Boromir was much alike to Earnur the last King and to Boromir I, Steward of Gondor.

Boromir was a great man - we see him only as a member of the Fellowship, but he was first and foremost the Captain of the White Tower, military commander of Gondor, loved and respected by everyone in Gondor - and the future steward.
And it was not only for his personal benefit that Boromir wanted the Ring, but mostly for the good of his country.

It looks like Gandalf and the Wise failed to realize that by his position and his personality, Boromir would be in grave danger from the Ring's lure. Aragorn would have been even more susceptible, but for his training: I think Elrond and Gandalf made it abundantly clear to him over the years that Isildur his ancestor was wrong to take the Ring and why. Boromir has never heard about the Ring before the Council and I don't think that he ever understood WHY the Ring should not be used against Sauron. In a way Boromir's fall is the fault of the Wise.

[Bêthberry]

Boromir was a great man - we see him only as a member of the Fellowship, but he was first and foremost the Captain of the White Tower, military commander of Gondor, loved and respected by everyone in Gondor - and the future steward.
And it was not only for his personal benefit that Boromir wanted the Ring, but mostly for the good of his country.

It looks like Gandalf and the Wise failed to realize that by his position and his personality, Boromir would be in grave danger from the Ring's lure. Aragorn would have been even more susceptible, but for his training: I think Elrond and Gandalf made it abundantly clear to him over the years that Isildur his ancestor was wrong to take the Ring and why. Boromir has never heard about the Ring before the Council and I don't think that he ever understood WHY the Ring should not be used against Sauron. In a way Boromir's fall is the fault of the Wise.

Well, in a way Boromir's fall is the fault of story. ;) Without the examples of those who have succumbed to the lure of the Ring, Frodo's trial would lack effect. So short of seeing how the Nazgul fell--but being given depictions of their malevolence--we have Gollem and Boromir as examples of how both the weak and the strong are susceptible. (And on the other hand there's Tom and Sam. If only Boromir had had a bit more sense of silliness and humour about him. :p)

But really, this question of the culpability of the Wise is interesting, for they are not bullies; they do not seek to dominate the will of others. That way lies Sauron's way. It is the quintessetial dilemma of Good, how to combat evil without succumbing to its ways. The only person who could save Boromir from himself was Boromir; any other person would have meant a bullying interference.

[Gordis]

Well, in a way Boromir's fall is the fault of story. ;) Without the examples of those who have succumbed to the lure of the Ring, Frodo's trial would lack effect. .
Not necessarily. There was Isildur’s example, Gollum’s example, Gandalf’s fear to take the Ring even for a time, Galadriel’s lust for the Ring that she had barely overcome, Denethor’s wish to get the ring, Sam’s temptation and finally Frodo’s ultimate fall to the Ring’s lure. The point was made even without Boromir.

And on the other hand there's Tom and Sam. If only Boromir had had a bit more sense of silliness and humour about him. :p.

Tom? But he didn't need the Ring at all - that was the difference. He was a content being. He had no goals in life that he couldn't carry out with his own "stronger songs". Had he wished (for instance) to expand his territory to Fangorn etc., or had he wished for Sauron's downfall, he wouldn't have remained immune to the Ring. Even Sam, the simple gardener and the perfect bodyguard, had more hidden desires that the Ring could explore.
And if "Sam the Ringlord" or "Gollum the Great" sounded silly, "Boromir the Great" didn't - at all. He was a good potential Ringlord, no worse than Isildur or Aragorn - and Sauron himself was most worried when he was led to believe that Aragorn had his Ring.

But really, this question of the culpability of the Wise is interesting, for they are not bullies; they do not seek to dominate the will of others. That way lies Sauron's way. It is the quintessetial dilemma of Good, how to combat evil without succumbing to its ways. The only person who could save Boromir from himself was Boromir; any other person would have meant a bullying interference.
I have to disagree. Explaining things and persuading someone is no “bullying interference.” IMO, the Wise failed to give Boromir all the necessary information about the Ring: the reasoning behind WHY it shouldn't be used. In the movies m-Elrond tried to explain it, saying ”the Ring answers only to Sauron”. But that is NOT what Tolkien wrote. Saruman, Galadriel and Boromir thought they could use the Ring and overthrow Sauron. Gandalf certainly could do it – we know it from the Letters- but then he would become the next Dark Lord, even worse than Sauron.
Gandalf did explain it to Frodo, early on, but did he tell the same to Boromir? Did Galadriel try to explain it to Boromir? I doubt it. This reasoning (WHY the Ring should NOT be used) is not easy to grasp: even the wise ancient Galadriel spent countless hours musing on "what if she gets the Ring?" . Boromir was left alone, alone and unprepared to counter the Ring's lure. EVERY Man except the specially trained Aragorn (and at length maybe even he as well) would have been in peril in Boromir's place.

[Bêthberry]

To each his own.


The point was made even without Boromir

I rather think Boromir's fall provided a harrowing, operational example of the breakdown of civil and civic order and was a valuable addition to the story. There's something in Tolkien that wants to explore the old warrior code, its vulnerabilities as well as its honours and dignities. And of course something else interesting to have the "spare", Faramir, turn truer than the "heir."


Tom? But he didn't need the Ring at all - that was the difference

There's something to be said for the ability not to take oneself so seriously. Humour adds distance that counteracts pomposity.


IMO, the Wise failed

In fairy tale, there are characters, often of ambiguous or enigmatic status, whose role is to push other characters towards revealing or discovering their own spirit, often with the all too obvious peril that those so tested may fail. Rather like the Faun in [i]Pan's Labyrinth[/b] or the bowdlerized figure of Mr. Tumnus in Narnia. It is part of the attraction of fantasy.


Still, I suppose, it is the attraction of the character to merit an apologist.

[MatthewM]

And on the other hand there's Tom and Sam. If only Boromir had had a bit more sense of silliness and humour about him. :p)

No. That "silliness" you speak of is quite annoying in my opinion. Boromir had a sense of humor, he used sarcasm more than once on the journey. He just didn't have (thankfully) the senseless dummy humour that Sam and Tom had. And I'm extremely glad about that. Boromir's stern and proud nature made him stand out, and made him who he was.

All siblings share the same blood - but that doesn't mean they must be identical twins. Ibrin is 100% right - genes may be expressed or not. Genotype is one thing, phenotype is another: thus brothers can be (and often are) very unlike, both in appearance and in character. And even the Numenoreans from the line of Elendil were not all alike: we are told in UT that Aragorn most resembled Elendil himself, as well as Isildur’s son Elendur, while Boromir was much alike to Earnur the last King and to Boromir I, Steward of Gondor.

You misunderstood me. I never said they were supposed to be identical. Why did you make that up? I already know everything that you said. Obviously siblings come out differently. My argument is that Tolkien was definitely not talking physical blood, he was using it as a metaphor to say that Boromir did not have the same Numenorean mind qualities that Faramir and Denethor had. But he had everything else that was Numenorean. He was of high Num. lineage.

I can't stand when people take the blood quote literally. All Gandalf implied was character traits.

[Bêthberry]

No. That "silliness" you speak of is quite annoying in my opinion. Boromir had a sense of humor, he used sarcasm more than once on the journey. He just didn't have (thankfully) the senseless dummy humour that Sam and Tom had. And I'm extremely glad about that. Boromir's stern and proud nature made him stand out, and made him who he was.

I hope my reply above to Gordis elaborates on my comment--do note please my use of the smilie--that sometimes those who can distance themselves from their most passionate wishes and nature are those who can the most successfully avoid falling prey to those passions and wishes. And a sense of humour provides that distance. Given both Sam's heroic stature and Tom's immunity to the Ring's lure I would humbly suggest that it is worthwhile to ponder with some degree of respect this ability of theirs. Sarcasm (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm) can sometimes be taken humorously but more often it denotes derision and contempt, something quite different from what I was suggesting as a way of understanding oneself and knowing onself.


I can't stand when people take the blood quote literally. All Gandalf implied was character traits.

Why get so riled up by different interpretations? Why does that idea of a literal meaning bother you so much?

[MatthewM]

Why get so riled up by different interpretations? Why does that idea of a literal meaning bother you so much?

Because it doesn't make any sense and simply is not true. Boromir was every bit of Numenorean that Faramir and Denethor were. The only difference was that Faramir did not possess Boromir's position or pride and had a different demeanor than his brother. The great part about this is the unshakable bond the brothers had, despite their character differences.

[Gordis]

Why get so riled up by different interpretations? Why does that idea of a literal meaning bother you so much?
Good question, especially considering that I basically agreed with you, MatthewM. Cool down, please.

What I meant was that IF it were blood alone that determined person's features, THEN any siblings would have been identical twins, as they share exactly the same blood. Yet, they are usually NOT identical: the fact that Gandalf was surely aware of. "Blood" that may or may not "run true" was simply a figure of speech - before the mankind acquired knowledge about genes. It is the same as to say "I love you with all my heart", despite the fact that a heart as such has nothing to do with any emotions.

Bethberry - I have a feeling that humor directed on one's self and Bombadil-ish silliness were hardly desirable in leaders of men, like Aragorn and Boromir. Both were proud and deadly serious about their fate, their place and lineage.
Look like Aragorn bristled when Gimli asked him about his talk with Sauron:
‘Did you say aught to - him?
‘You forget to whom you speak,’ said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. ‘Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? What do you fear that I should say to him?"
Rangers of the North were characterized as "grim" in general: even the nine nazgul showed more humor than they did.
Frodo by the end of the quest lost all his sense of humor altogether, as did Denethor by the end of the siege. And I can't really blame them...:rolleyes:

[MatthewM]

Good question, especially considering that I basically agreed with you, MatthewM. Cool down, please.

Alright. I apologize...


What I meant was that IF it were blood alone that determined person's features, THEN any siblings would have been identical twins, as they share exactly the same blood. Yet, they are usually NOT identical: the fact that Gandalf was surely aware of. "Blood" that may or may not "run true" was simply a figure of speech - before the mankind acquired knowledge about genes. It is the same as to say "I love you with all my heart", despite the fact that a heart as such has nothing to do with any emotions.

Exactly. I wasn't clear of your stance.


Bethberry - I have a feeling that humor directed on one's self and Bombadil-ish silliness were hardly desirable in leaders of men, like Aragorn and Boromir. Both were proud and deadly serious about their fate, their place and lineage.
Look like Aragorn bristled when Gimli asked him about his talk with Sauron:
Rangers of the North were characterized as "grim" in general: even the nine nazgul showed more humor than they did.
Frodo by the end of the quest lost all his sense of humor altogether, as did Denethor by the end of the siege. And I can't really blame them...:rolleyes:

Exactly.

[Bêthberry]

Gentlemen, Tolkien probably has the best lines to express my opinion of this discussion about humour and distance:


As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. [...] You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person.


And that I believe sums up all I wish to say.

I am, however, glad that amends have been made about the anger over the blood issue. Really, I was wondering if people were thinking that the comment implied some sort of hanky panky by Finduilas or some more dire event (hence her increasing dark spirits, long decline, and ultimate death after marrying Denethor) and that's what drew the ire.

[ArathornJax]

I brought it up so just to discuss some differences between Faramir and Boromir and their father for that matter, since there was a comment that is what the discussion is focused on. I had expected more of a discussion along the lines of what is found in Appendix A. For me, Boromir is less Numenorean and more traditional man, as expressed better by Appendix A. He loves war and battle, is strong and fearless, takes no wife like King Earnur (whom he is compared to), an relishes the non-tranditional Numenorean interests of battle and arms. Boromir has little interest in the tranditional Numenorean interests of lore (except in ancient or former battles) and music, while not possessing the foresight and seeing into the hearts of men like Faramir and his father.
Faramir is the opposite and loves music and lore, is equally bold and daring when the situation calls for it, but not just for glory's sake. Faramir could "read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he saw did not lead him to scorn others but to pity what he saw" in them. Faramir in many ways reminds me of Aragorn.

Appendix A makes it very clear that both are Denethor's son because it states that Boromir was like his father in face and pride, but in nothing else. Faramir was like his father in both looks and in mind.

So I have to believe that genetically Boromir received less Numenorean traits then his father had, or that his younger brother received. That is not a slight to him, but for me it is a fact of who Boromir is. It helps us to understand who he is, and why he does what he does. I would also say that his environment had a lot probably to do with each son as well as parental expectations.

In the end Boromir was all warrior and is very prideful like his father. It is his pride/ego that lead him to being tempted by the ring, and his attempt to take it. Faramir though, because of his insight and his wisdom, is able to resist the very temptation of the ring outright. Faramir stated "Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee." For me then it is Faramir's Numenorean traits that allow him to not be tempted by the ring, while Boromir's ego and pride, that lead him to succumb to the influence/temptation of the ring. I don't think that lessens Boromir, for like his brother it is easy to see that Boromir was a great leader in battle. It does make for a nice compare and contrast on the two.

So, I think both brothers are fascinating for different reasons, one of them being how different they are, yet how much they loved and either supported or accepted each other. They are true brothers and family members who understood each other's stengths and weaknesses. Much like them, we may have our favorites, but I think it is important to remember that both play their role in the novel in helping it reach its conclusion.

[MatthewM]

I brought it up so just to discuss some differences between Faramir and Boromir and their father for that matter, since there was a comment that is what the discussion is focused on. I had expected more of a discussion along the lines of what is found in Appendix A. For me, Boromir is less Numenorean and more traditional man, as expressed better by Appendix A. He loves war and battle, is strong and fearless, takes no wife like King Earnur (whom he is compared to), an relishes the non-tranditional Numenorean interests of battle and arms. Boromir has little interest in the tranditional Numenorean interests of lore (except in ancient or former battles) and music, while not possessing the foresight and seeing into the hearts of men like Faramir and his father.

I disagree. Boromir was every bit Numenorean that Faramir and Denethor was. He was not like them in mind! That is one sole aspect that Tolkien cites. Boromir was of the same lineage of his sibling and his father. He was not more of a traditional man- he was 6'4", built like an ox, and the strongest man in Gondor! He was of "high Numenorean lineage" as Tolkien points in a letter located in the Bodleian Library in Oxford (p.229, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull). A man from a simple background could not claim such a title. Fact is fact, Boromir was every bit of Numenorean that Faramir and Denethor was! He was unlike them in every aspect of mind (because he shared Denethor's pride)- that's IT!!!

for like his brother it is easy to see that Boromir was a great leader in battle. It does make for a nice compare and contrast on the two.

It is easy to see?! Of course it was, he was the Captain General! Boromir was ten times the warrior that Faramir was!!! Faramir did not even compare to Boromir in the realm of battle!

[Bêthberry]

I brought it up so just to discuss some differences between Faramir and Boromir and their father for that matter, since there was a comment that is what the discussion is focused on. I had expected more of a discussion along the lines of what is found in Appendix A. For me, Boromir is less Numenorean and more traditional man, as expressed better by Appendix A. He loves war and battle, is strong and fearless, takes no wife like King Earnur (whom he is compared to), an relishes the non-tranditional Numenorean interests of battle and arms. Boromir has little interest in the tranditional Numenorean interests of lore (except in ancient or former battles) and music, while not possessing the foresight and seeing into the hearts of men like Faramir and his father.
Faramir is the opposite and loves music and lore, is equally bold and daring when the situation calls for it, but not just for glory's sake. Faramir could "read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he saw did not lead him to scorn others but to pity what he saw" in them. Faramir in many ways reminds me of Aragorn.

Appendix A makes it very clear that both are Denethor's son because it states that Boromir was like his father in face and pride, but in nothing else. Faramir was like his father in both looks and in mind.

So I have to believe that genetically Boromir received less Numenorean traits then his father had, or that his younger brother received. That is not a slight to him, but for me it is a fact of who Boromir is. It helps us to understand who he is, and why he does what he does. I would also say that his environment had a lot probably to do with each son as well as parental expectations.

In the end Boromir was all warrior and is very prideful like his father. It is his pride/ego that lead him to being tempted by the ring, and his attempt to take it. Faramir though, because of his insight and his wisdom, is able to resist the very temptation of the ring outright. Faramir stated "Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee." For me then it is Faramir's Numenorean traits that allow him to not be tempted by the ring, while Boromir's ego and pride, that lead him to succumb to the influence/temptation of the ring. I don't think that lessens Boromir, for like his brother it is easy to see that Boromir was a great leader in battle. It does make for a nice compare and contrast on the two.

So, I think both brothers are fascinating for different reasons, one of them being how different they are, yet how much they loved and either supported or accepted each other. They are true brothers and family members who understood each other's stengths and weaknesses. Much like them, we may have our favorites, but I think it is important to remember that both play their role in the novel in helping it reach its conclusion.

This is an interesting look at the Appendix, ArathornJax and I think a very fair analysis. Quite true that we all have our favourites.

It is interesting that it is pity and mercy which give Faramir strength rather than raw brawn--no wonder he welcomes Gandalf, which his father regretfully would or could not do, out of pride and fear that the Wizard would take the Steward's inheritance.

The comparison of Boromir with Earnur is very interesting, for in the Appendix we are told something about Earnur's nature as a leader.


Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or a king, .

Now, the Appendix is, I take it, written in the Narrator's Omniscience and we have little in the story proper of LotR to contrast and compare his (I assume 'he' is the correct gender) comments. Normally I suppose we assume that the Narrator is speaking with full authorial authority. Yet when Farmir speaks with Frodo and Sam, we have Faramir making a comment which the Appendix later supports. Here is Faramir's explanation to Sam and Frodo of the relations between the Rohirrim and the Gondorian peoples.


"Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and scarce can claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor. And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn." Faramir sighed and fell silent for a while.

Quite intriguing, eh wot?

[MatthewM]

The extreme similarities between King Earnur and Boromir are well known.

[Bêthberry]

The extreme similarities between King Earnur and Boromir are well known.

Just putting the comparison between Earnur and Boromir in the context of the brother's understanding of each other and of Numenorean values.

It was Eanur after all who put the kingdom into the constitutional crisis which led to the creation of the Ruling Stewardship.

It's really quite an interesting comparison because of the similarities to Tolkien's thoughts on ofermod and the right duty of a warrior in The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth. There's an old thread around here someowhere on the topic. Perhaps if I find it I can edit this with a link to that discussion.

EDIT: found it: Here's the link

Barrow Downs thread discussing "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth" (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10748&highlight=Homecoming+Beorhtnoth). Some fab contributions by Squatter and davem in particular.

[Nazgûl-king]

Ah, I see this topic is doing good now:).

This week: Gandalf and Saruman

Gandalf and Saruman are both important characters in Lord of the Rings, I find it interesting how they seem to be two different sides of the same character. Everything Gandalf is Saruman seems to be the opposite, when Gandalf returns he even goes so far as to say that he is “Saruman as he should have been”. So what do you guys think of these two Istari?

[ArathornJax]

Seems to be a theme in the thread; that of pride and ego versus selflessness and sacrifice. Anyway, going through Unfinished Tales I found some interesting comparisons.

First, Saruman as we know, is linked to Aule while Gandalf is linked to Manwe. Gandalf/Olorin felt he was too weak to go and that he feared Sauron, thus showing to Manwe another reason why he should be sent. Curumo/Saruman was froced to take Aiwendil/Radagast because Yavanna wife of Aule begged Curumo to do so. This may explain the contempt that Saruman had for Radagast in the FOTR. So, to summarize the first compare, we see that both Mair were sent to Middle Earth as ambassadors to the free people there.

Another compare is that both were sent in the bodies of men (who aged but did not die from old age) and their former life became as a dream that they reflected on, and wanted to get back to as long as the remembered their duty and to fulfill it. I find it interesting in UT that Tolkien made the connection that unlike the mistake the Valar did with being overprotective of the Eldar and showing their glory to get the Eldar to comply, the Istari were not allowed to show their power or their true self at any time. The Istari were forbidden to rule the wills of men and elves. Thus the reason for the humble bodies. The Istari were to seek to persuade and advise to unite men and elves in love and understanding so they would oppose the oppression and captivity that Sauron wanted over them.

Another compare is that upon arriving at Middle Earth at the Havens (Saruman first, Gandalf last of the five Chief Istari appointed to the North of Middle Earth; does this imply there may have been lesser or more?), both undertook journeys. Saruman went with the two Blue Wizards to the east where the Blue did not return, and Gandalf focused on the North, West and south assuming Gondor. We know from the text that Gandalf did not reveal himself in this journey but studied the hearts of men and elves to get to know them better.

To contrast. Saruman upon returning from his journeys went to Gondor and then settled in Isengard. Gandalf never settled but continued to wander to inspire hope in the hearts of men. I believe that both could continue their missions from where they abode or wandered, Gandalf would just have more presence and personal connectiosn by being a pilgrim, though early on it appears that Saruman did wander at least up to Fangorn and built a relationship with Treebeard.

Saruman arrived with raven black hair and a fair voice and was very skilled with crafts by the hands. Indeed his Elven name Curunir means man of craft.

Gandalf was the least tall of the five that arrived, and was clad in grey, had more grey hair and looked aged. Cirdan though perceived him to be the wisest and thus gave him the Red Ring, Narya, knowing that Gandalf would need it to "kindle all hearts to courage."

Further contrasts are that Saruman fell from his high calling and became "proud, impatient, and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron, but was ensnared by that dark spirit mightier than he.'

Gandalf on contrast, is much different and I believe much of this comes from his fear of Sauron and his own proclaimed feeling of being weak. Gandalf had an "eager spirit" when it came to doing his task "opposing the fire that devours and waste and with the fire that kindles and succors . . ." Gandalf's joys and his swift anger were hid by his garments so much that only those close to him could see the inner flame inside of him. He could be kindly and merry to the young or the simple minded. The text further reflects that he could be sharp and rebuking at times, but that this did not come from being proud, nor did he seek power or praise.

The final contrast of course is that Saruman failed at his task, and when killed at the "hand of an oppressed slave" and his spirit departed wherever "it was doomed to go (according to UT)", leaving Middle Earth. Gandalf on the other hand suffered greatly and died, and was sent back and successfully fulfilled his assignment and was taken back to the West.

So much for the compare and contrast. Is Saruman the opposite of Gandalf? I would have to say that when they were selected and then sent, no. I believe from the text that they had different abilities and varying interests, but this did not make them become opposites in Middle Earth at first. Like all of us, it is the choices they made that eventually made them become opposites. Saruman gave up on his mission and got caught up in the quest for power, domination and control, even wanting to supplant Sauron. This was contrary to their mandate from the Valar. They were not to seek to control or dominant the will of men or elves. They were to inspire, persuade and unite the free people against Sauron. Gandalf stayed true to that mandate and as such, fulfilled it. Thus because he chose to remain true to the mandate of the Valar, that brought about the opposition and Gandalf's statement that he had become as Saruman should have.

For me, this is one of the themes of LOTR, obedience to duty/calling, fulfilling it and magnifying it or giving in to pride, desire for control and domination, and thus losing one's way and purpose. We see it here with Gandalf and Saruman, and see it with other characters, both major and minor throughout the book.

[Nazgûl-king]

Ok, moving on to the next set of characters>

This week: Frodo, Sam, and Gollum

Three of the most important characters in the Lord of the Rings, Frodo and Sam have a very strong friendship; they are very loyal to each other, and care about each other greatly. They experienced much together, through their journey to destroy the Ring. However the two hobbits, have a very different relationship with Gollum; Sam did not like nor trust Gollum, while Frodo wished to help him, seeing in him what the Ring could do to him and having pity on him. So what are your thoughts on the relationship between these three most important characters?

[Gordis]

I personally doubt that Frodo and Sam "shared a very strong friendship". Maybe they did - after the Quest.
But at first it was more like benevolent master- faithful servant relationship. Frodo had been friends with Pippin, Merry and Fredegar - but not with Sam.
When they had to travel to Mordor alone, Frodo learned to rely on Sam more and more - but then he had no choice. Sam's devotion has gradually become all-consuming - more akin to that of a faithful dog.;)

[Lush]

OK, I'm actually replying to something about Boromir, please, please forgive me,

The point was made even without Boromir.

Well, I think that Boromir's fall, redemption, and death is what gives us an extra dimension there, MatthewM. Boromir shows us how the Ring's corrupting influence wormed its way into the heart of the Fellowship. There's something very visceral about it, this idea of all-important bonds of friendship and duty compromised in this manner.

And then there's the fact that we lose Boromir, but not before he realizes his mistake and repents. I've been revisiting that part of the book since I first read it - it's a huge tragedy, and Tolkien uses great, understated language there (instead of piling it on).

It's one of the reasons why I love his character even more with each passing year, I think.

Sorry, back to your regular scheduled posting now.

[Groin Redbeard]

I think Frodo took pity on Gollum because he could relate to the burden that Gollum carried for so lone, but Sam was naturally suspicious of Gollum. Indeed I think any person would be if a creature like that attacked you in the middle of the night. :) Gordis makes an interesting point with the "faithful dog" ;)analogy, but Frodo surely had to have some relationship with Sam if they were going to travel together.

Sam, to me, represents the ordinary man. He isn't awfully smart, but he is loving and loyal to those that he knows. Sam was always looking out for Frodo whenever danger arrived. Maybe he had something to prove to himself while doing this.

Gollum represents the inner struggle between good and evil. The Ring is what he wants, but he can't make up his mind whether to let the evil thing go and have long lasting happiness or hold onto it and be happy for the moment.

[Gordis]

I think Frodo took pity on Gollum because he could relate to the burden that Gollum carried for so long Indeed, Frodo was in unique position to understand Gollum - he could do it better than anyone else in ME. He knew exactly how Gollum felt, why he couldn't give up the Ring and was horrified seeing the end result of the ring-addiction.
If you forgive me this lame analogy, Frodo is like a person just starting using drugs who sees another totally wrecked by them - but still he cannot stop. He cannot drop the Ring and go away not only because he has promised to carry out the Quest and save Middle-Earth, but also because he has no strength left to do it, even if he wished to. It is the road with no return - and even the destruction of the Ring is no cure for him.
No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.
He can't help feeling mental kinship with Gollum.

Groin: ...but Sam was naturally suspicious of Gollum.
He was suspicious of right about everyone they met, but his beloved Elves: Strider, Boromir, Faramir, and Gollum. It was a usual narrow-minded mistrust of strangers/foreigners so common in the Shire + his over-possessiveness towards Frodo. Remember, he had suspected Aragorn almost all the way to Rivendell, at least before they met Glorfindel. Maybe it was a good thing, as Frodo seems a bit too trusting, at least at the beginning. What if instead of Aragorn they had met Saruman's or Sauron's agent in disguise?

Groin: but Frodo surely had to have some relationship with Sam if they were going to travel together.
Sure, they had a strong relationship involving trust and affection, but it was hardly friendship. As I said, it was more like a master-dog thing, but not quite. Such relationships are all but extinct nowadays, but in Middle-ages they seemed to be quite common, and are often met in English literature (Walter Scott etc.).

Groin The Ring is what he wants, but he can't make up his mind whether to let the evil thing go and have long lasting happiness or hold onto it and be happy for the moment.
I don't think Gollum had any choice. He certainly had NO strength left to let the Ring go after 500 years with it. Even Frodo had none. And how could he hope for "long lasting happiness" if the destruction of the ring literally meant his death? Strange that he still had some good feelings left...

[Nazgûl-king]

This week: Treebeard

Treebeard also know as Fangorn is the oldest of the Ents and described as the oldest being in Middle-earth. He is patient and wise, though he takes a long time to make up his mind. What are your thoughts on this character?

[Gwathagor]

Whether or not being slow to make his mind constitutes a weakness on Treebeard's part is debatable, but he certainly has a sympathy for living, growing things, which works as a strength and a weakness - it contributed to the Ents' decision to destroy Isengard, and which Saruman later manipulated to escape Orthanc. Thus it seems to be a crucial part of both his character - as the protection of living plants is his occupation - and also of the story as a whole. Our strengths are our weaknesses, I suppose. :)

[Nazgûl-king]

Alright, now for our first character from The Hobbit.

This Week: Beorn

A rather mysterious character, Beorn can turn into a bear. He is strong and powerful. By the time of Lord of the Rings, he has a son Grimbeorn who leads a race of people the Beornings, who can also turn into bears. His having a son implies that he became married at some point. What are your thoughts on this character?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Redux on the Steward and his sons:

I suppose it's also possible that Faramir, but not his brother, inherited from his mother something of Dol Amroth and thus the thread of Elven lineage.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

EEP!!! I'm two years late for a surprise exam on Middle Earth and Hobbit!!!

Oh well, better late than never :D...

By the time of The Hobbit, there seemed to be only two santuaries of Men from which Beorn could have found his mate: Woodsmen village and Dale. Of course, that is discounting the possibility of the random Ranger and wandering Wizard. It may also be possible that some teenage Eldar maiden or bearded dwarf spinster discovered the masculine appeal of the hairy macho man of Carrock.

I certainly find the prospect of Beorn laying with some Eldar entaintaining, though implausible as that would give rise to another line of super-Men with shape-changing elvish lineage.

(How'd I do for my first paper after 3 years of truant?)

[Groin Redbeard]

I was/am always troubled by what Beorn really is. I know that he's a skin changer and all that, but what are the origins of his people? Where did they come from and how did they get their gift of skin changing?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

For that matter, where did the hairs on hobbits' feet came from, and how did they shrink? No mention of hobbits at all in Arda 1st or 2nd age either. I believed that there had been some pun drawn at the hobbit feet: something about letting the grass (hairs) grow on feet; i.e. to idle around. But other than literary significance, I've written off the hairs as just another magical element of Middle Earth.

In fact, Beorn's shape shifting ability was very much up there in the Tookish Book of Untouchable Wonders, sitting comfortably with wandering wizards and mad baggins.

[Nazgûl-king]

This week: Bilbo Baggins

What are your thoughts on the character of Bilbo Baggins?

[Kitanna]

Bilbo is quite the corrupted, yet uncorrupted character.

His possession of the Ring for six decades left him accusing Gandalf of trying to take it and in Rivendell a strange shadow passes over him as he contemplates getting it back from Frodo. From the very beginning he lied about it and his "winning" it from Gollum. Yet he manages to overcome its hold by giving it up as Gandalf requested.

Even though he knows it's evil he still longs for it in a childlike manner. And in that childlike manner I say he's uncorrupted. Because children can be easily swayed by what they want, they even resort to throwing fits, but they're never moved to a state of true violence. Bilbo's accusations and his lying from the beginning make me think of him as a small child hoarding some secret treasure he's not supposed to have. As for children (at least when my siblings and I were growing up) our treasures corrupts us, makes us act out, but after a time we were taught or came to realize we shouldn't keep it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Bilbo does appear to have a habit of picking up things that later prove troublesome (the Ring, the Arkenstone). It has always struck me as odd, however, that the Ring -- which is an object of malice and evil with a sort of will of its own -- was something he picked up casually, in the dark, simply because his hand happened to fall on it, and in so doing, it put the Ring in what turned out to be the best place to lead to its eventual destruction. He chose to take the Arkenstone, not just because he happened upon it in the dark, and for him personally, the repercussions were more immediately bad. Just goes to show that Gandalf was right when he said that Bilbo took so little harm from the Ring because he began his ownership of it with pity. Not so the Arkenstone, and in that case, he lost friends in the battle that followed.

I tend to think that Bilbo is very much the embodiment of the Hobbit tendency to be "brave in a pinch." He's really a poet and scholar, and if he yearned for adventure, I think it was mostly because he wanted to know what it was like, to have such an experience so that he could feel he understood the heroes he heard about in story and song. When needed, he displays considerable courage, but doesn't really step up and volunteer for the job very often. I can't help but think that at the Council of Elrond, he volunteered to take the Ring to Mordor with a rather certain knowledge that he would not be allowed to do so because of his age. It doesn't diminish the value of his offer, because he's the kind of person who would stick to his word, but it could well explain why some of the others at the council smiled when he volunteered.

[Nazgûl-king]

This week: Fëanor

This week is our first analysis of a character from The Silmarillion, so what are your thoughts on Fëanor the maker of the silmarils?