Tuor: the Anti-Turin

[Gwathagor]

I think Tuor may be intended to be a contrast to the tragic Turin, since I see a lot of parallels between the two characters. I'll list the ones I can think of; maybe other Downers can find some more.

Similarities:
Turin was loved by Elf princess, and consequently was hated by Gwindor / Tuor was loved by Elf princess, and consequently was hated by Maeglin (right name? I always get all the "m" names confused)

Turin gets cool, distinctive, symbolic sword and armor (Gurthang + Dragon-helm) / Tuor gets cool sword and armor (at Vinyamar)

Eaterlings overrun Turin's country, and he turns outlaw after being taken in by the elves / Tuor turns outlaw for similar reasons in similar circumstances

Turin is closely associated with Elvish citadel (Nargothrond) / Tuor is closely associated with Elvish citadel (Gondolin)

Turin has his life orchestrated by a Vala (Melkor) / Tuor has his life orchestrated by a Vala (Ulmo)


Differences:
Tuor actually marries the Elf princess

Turin causes the destruction of Nargothrond by preventing the removal of the bridge, whereas Tuor saves the inhabitants of Gondolin

Turin is manipulated by a BAD vala, whereas Tuor is used by a GOOD vala (Ha ha, I can't help thinking of Wizard of Oz: "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?")

Turin has a creepy dragon on his helmet, whereas Tuor's gear is swan-themed


There must be more. Come on, smart people. Get to work.

[Eönwë]

I've always noticed this too. At one point, when I tried to thinkof one tale (especially after reading te UT) they just mixed into one for me.

[Gwathagor]

Great. At least I'm not crazy, unless we both are. :)

[Thinlómien]

I've noticed that too, but never thought of it to that extent. Interesting, very interesting and surely by no means unintentional from Tolkien's part. Given that Túrin and Tuor were cousins, the parallel seems even stronger. The stories even overlap curiously when Tuor and Voronwë see Túrin at distance.

Alongside those differences and similarities you listed, I think at least two things are worth being mentioned. First is the difference between their mothers, gentle Rían and steel-hard Morwen. Both their sons take after their own mother, are affected by their upbringing (I can't help thinking Túrin's grimness might have had something to do with his mother's attitude) and lose their mothers early. While Túrin is traumathised by this, I can't remember how was it with Tuor.

Also, both men are fostered in a way or another by Elves (Tuor with Annael & co, Túrin with Thingol) and become close to an Elven King. While Tuor is the ideal son-in-law to Turgon, Túrin, although loved by his foster "father" Thingol, mostly causes trouble at his court.

And now that I started thinking about these things, they both have a faithful and loving Elf friend, Tuor has Voronwë and Túrin has Beleg. I'm sure one could easily come up with even more things if s/he thought about it.

[skip spence]

To compare the stories of Tuor and of Turin is an interesting idea.

All I can add right now is this:

Difference:
Tuor is given wise counsel and listens to it it humbly.

Turin is given wise counsel but stubbornly refuses to accept it.

And why are Turin's buddies (whose good counsel he never heeds) always gimps?

[Groin Redbeard]

I've never noticed that before! Thanks for brining that up Gwathagor. Although I don't know much about Turin, or Tuor for that matter, I'm very interested in this thread.:)

[Gwathagor]

And why are Turin's buddies (whose good counsel he never heeds) always gimps?

Whoa, you're right.

Good point about the mothers, Thinlomien.

[McCaber]

Besides that, Turin's friends keep ending up dead by his own hands while Tuor seems able to protect those he cares about.

I just realized that there are also comparisons between Beleg and Voronwë and between Finduilas and Idril. I really have to spend some time on this.

[Galadriel55]

I cannot resist.

"... I asked because I doubted what here seems believed; for little indeed do you resemble the kin of Hador, whatever your name."

"And what do you know of them?" said Turin.

"Hurin I have seen," answered Arminas, "and his fathers before him. And in the wastes of Dor-lomin I met with Tuor, son of Huor, Hurin's brother; and he is like his fathers, as you are not."

"That may be," said Turin, "though of Tuor I have heard no word ere now.But if my head be dark and not golden, of that I am not ashamed. For I am not the first of sons in the likeness of his mother; and I come through Morwen Eledhwen of the House of Beor and the kindred of Beren Camlost."

"I spoke not of the difference between the black and the gold," said Arminas. "But others of the House of Hador bear themselves otherwise, and Tuor among them. For they use courtesy, and they listen to good counsel, holding the Lords of the West in awe. But you, it seems, will take counsel with your own wisdom, or with your sword only; and you speak haughtily. And I say to you, Agarwaen Mormegil, that if you do so, other shall be your doom than one of the Houses of Hador and Beor might look for."

~COH, The Fall of Nargothrond

I think that having black hair also has some symbolical significance (being the black sheep?), although its not the most important thing.

At length [Tuor and Voronwe] came in their journeying to the Pools of Ivrin, and looked with grief on the defilement wrought there by the passage of Glaurung the Dragon; but even as they gazed upon it they saw one going northward in haste, and he was a tall Man, clad in black, and bearing a black sword. But they knew not who he was, nor anything of what had befallen in the south; and he passed them by, and they said no word.

~The Sil, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

Here we have the pair going in different directions. Also symbolical.


Turin was loved by Elf princess, and consequently was hated by Gwindor

I don't think Gwindor hated. He was bitter about it, but he didn't hate Turin.

[Archaic Elf]

I would just say that Turin and Tuor are social experiments. Take two people that would be similar in most regards and see what happens when you insert poison into one and not the other. One goes crazy and dies violently while the other thrives and becomes a hero.

Turin probably could have been just as heroic and likeable as Tuor, but he was doomed from the start because of Morgoth's power. It would be interesting to ask how much free will Turin has since he seems predisposed to make the wrong choices at critical moments. Not always (he is successful at different periods of time), but he still makes major mistakes often enough. I would say he has free will, but there's still an outside force nudging him in the wrong direction.

Glaurong didn't help matters either....

[Galadriel]

And why are Turin's buddies (whose good counsel he never heeds) always gimps?

Beleg and Mablung were not gimps :smokin: How many of them were actually gimps? Two? I must be missing some...

The relation between Túrin and Tuor is an interesting one. I have, however, noticed that most people who are blond in Tolkien's mythology are innately good and kind, while many of the dark-haired ones are tragic, cowardly or evil. Skip the line of Elros and of Elrond, if you please.

Turin probably could have been just as heroic and likeable as Tuor, but he was doomed from the start because of Morgoth's power. It would be interesting to ask how much free will Turin has since he seems predisposed to make the wrong choices at critical moments. Not always (he is successful at different periods of time), but he still makes major mistakes often enough. I would say he has free will, but there's still an outside force nudging him in the wrong direction.

The whole Macbeth thing. Except in Macbeth, Macbeth was told to his face what was going to happen, thus increasing his chances of actually committing murder. I agree that there might be an outside force with regard to Túrin, but come on, we all know how stubborn he is. I think half the time he doesn't listen to good counsel is because he does not like counsel, good or bad.

[Galadriel55]

It would be interesting to ask how much free will Turin has since he seems predisposed to make the wrong choices at critical moments. Not always (he is successful at different periods of time), but he still makes major mistakes often enough. I would say he has free will, but there's still an outside force nudging him in the wrong direction.

There are other threads that talk about this, but this is what I think:

The curse turns most of Turins deeds into evil. He has free will, but no matter how good his choice may seem at the moment, it always turns back on him.

Melian tried to shield him and Morwen from the curse. Morwen didn't listen from the start, but she succeeded with Turin, until he started taking matters into his own hands. Ultimately, though, Melian's protection cost her the life of her husband and her kingdom.


That makes me think of what would happen with Tuor if he was Turin. Would he listen to Ulmo (not that Ulmo would choose Turin anyways)? Would he kill Voronwe? How long would Gondolin have lasted?

[Gwathagor]

There are other threads that talk about this, but this is what I think:

The curse turns most of Turins deeds into evil. He has free will, but no matter how good his choice may seem at the moment, it always turns back on him.

Melian tried to shield him and Morwen from the curse. Morwen didn't listen from the start, but she succeeded with Turin, until he started taking matters into his own hands. Ultimately, though, Melian's protection cost her the life of her husband and her kingdom.


That makes me think of what would happen with Tuor if he was Turin. Would he listen to Ulmo (not that Ulmo would choose Turin anyways)? Would he kill Voronwe? How long would Gondolin have lasted?


I wonder if the curse actually affected Turin himself. Did it have any power over him, or just over his circumstances? Certainly he was put through terrible situations and tribulations, but how much of the curse was himself, his own acceptance and ownership of the dark name that had been placed upon him? Maybe all Morgoth had to do was create the right situation in order to unleash the darkness inside Turin.

Again, a Macbeth sort of thing.

[Galadriel]

That makes me think of what would happen with Tuor if he was Turin. Would he listen to Ulmo (not that Ulmo would choose Turin anyways)? Would he kill Voronwe? How long would Gondolin have lasted?

Doubtless Tuor would make mistakes, though I do not think they would be as grievous as Túrin's. Tuor is by nature humble and wise, and would probably heed the advice of his friends and seniors better. He would not, I think, come to such a dark end as Túrin did. I do not know if he would kill Voronwë. Even Túrin only killed Beleg by pure and complete accident; it had nothing to do with his pride or his stubbornness. Tuor could just as easily make the same mistake, if cursed by a Dark Lord.

I do not want to know what would happen to Gondolin :eek: As if its end was not bad enough already!