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Eönwë
03-19-2008, 12:35 PM
I was wondering, is the Arkenstone the Silmaril that fell into the Earth? After the mountains shifted and Beleriand went, did a Silmaril come up in the heart of a mountain, encased in stone, only to be carved back by a dwarf? This would explain everything. I'm not sure about dates and if this theory works (because the War of Wrath was before the Silmarils were recovered, though only just, I think). Does anyone know the answer?

Hookbill the Goomba
03-19-2008, 01:07 PM
A quick search of the forum is always advisable. But we all do it from time to time:

An old discussion on the Arkenstone (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=37855#post37855).

There are others out there, of course, but this is my favorite.

Eönwë
03-19-2008, 01:56 PM
You obvioulsy have better searching powers than me. I thought I had searched well, but oviously not well enough.

And I didn't just make this thread because of my pseudonym, though its quite a nice coincidence (trying to look for what I lost, eh?)

William Cloud Hicklin
03-19-2008, 08:28 PM
A good discussion. I think that the Arkenstone was somewhat informed by the pre-existing description of the Silmarils, as much of The Hobbit's geography resembles but isn't quite that of Beleriand: it's especially worth noting that in Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon translations of the Annals he uses the OE word 'eorclanstanas' to translate 'Silmarils.' But the word literally means nothing more than 'precious or sacred stones.'

Ibrîniðilpathânezel
03-20-2008, 08:04 AM
"somewhat informed" I like that. :) There are so many things from the unpublished Silmarillion that crept into the published Hobbit and LotR that one cannot help but think that Tolkien had despaired of TS ever being published and didn't want all that hard work and creativity to go to waste. The Arkenstone would look to be one. If it were an actual silmaril, though, I would wonder how Smaug, a creature of evil, would manage to keep it around without being either burned or driven mad by it.

skip spence
03-20-2008, 08:22 AM
Nope, I don't think so.

To begin with the Lonely Mountain must've been very far from the place where Maedros threw the silmaril down a firery pit. I find it highly unlikely that it would have travelled under the crust of the earth to be refound countless leagues east of where it was originally lost.

zxcvbn
03-21-2008, 12:55 AM
There are plenty of stories about famous jewels in Middle-earth. The Arkenstone and the Silmarils are two different things with different histories.

Groin Redbeard
03-22-2008, 06:50 PM
There has been a lot of talk about how the Arkenstone couldn't have been a Silmaril because only the good can touch it without being burned, and Thorin wasn't at all good. This I think isn't true in the case of Thorin, although he seemed mean on the outside with confronting the men of the Dale and the elves the way that he did, but when he was on his death bed that's when his true colors showed. So yes I do believe that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril.

Rune Son of Bjarne
03-22-2008, 11:54 PM
I agree. . . being stubborn and narrow minded does not = evil

Eönwë
03-23-2008, 05:18 PM
Also, he is not of the original children of Illuvatar- maybe the same standards don't apply.

William Cloud Hicklin
03-24-2008, 02:18 PM
But Varda's curse extended not just to evil creatures, but mortal flesh. Beren was a particular exception, but no other Man (or Dwarf) could have handled a Silmaril unscathed.

Eönwë
03-24-2008, 04:58 PM
She could have made them an exception, if it helped with the Plan.

Folwren
03-24-2008, 08:24 PM
Interesting thought, but I've a vague feeling somehow that Bilbo would not have been permitted merely to bury it with Thoren if it had been a Silmaril.

Elmo
03-25-2008, 08:33 AM
Perhaps that it would probably be better there, then to have people continually fighting about it.

Gwathagor
04-14-2008, 11:37 PM
I think if it had been a Silmaril that Gandalf would have said something.

skip spence
04-26-2008, 02:12 PM
I stumbled over this little note while browsing HOME XI and came to think of this thread.

HOME XI Comment on SS22 pg 108
For Melian taught to them [The Dwarves Of Belegost] much wisdom (which also they were eager to get, and she gave to them also the great jewel which she alone had brought out of Valinor, work of Feanor ... for he gave many such to the folk of Lorien. A white gem it was that gathered the starlight and sent it forth in blue fires; end the Enfang priced it above a mountain of wealth.

Fits like a glove eh? The Arkenstone's Silmaril-like qualities are explained as it was a work of Feanor in Valinor. And how did the Dwarves find the Arkenstone? They dug it up from Lonely Mountain right. Probably left there by their ancient ancestors I'd say.

What do you think?

Ibrîniðilpathânezel
04-26-2008, 02:23 PM
Well, if I recall correctly, Thorin said that the Arkenstone was an heirloom of his house. If it had already been among the treasure of the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain when Smaug moved in, having been handed down through the generations, I'd say there's a good chance that it was Melian's gift to the Dwarves of ages past. Makes sense to me. Nice find.

Eönwë
04-26-2008, 03:27 PM
So we know that at the very least it was the work of the Feanor (not one of the silmarils because they would only have been recovered after the War).

Gwathagor
04-26-2008, 09:19 PM
You've got me convinced, skip. :)

skip spence
04-27-2008, 12:28 AM
Glad to have won a few folk over. Unfortunately there's a catch I didn't notice at first, being eager an all.

This was an idea that did not fit the chronology, for Melian left Valinor in 1050, the year of the awakening of the elves ... Feanor was born more than a hundred Valian years later ... and in GA 2 the story of the great pearl Nimphelos was substituted.

Oh well...

Gwathagor
04-27-2008, 12:31 AM
Oh. Drat.

Eönwë
04-27-2008, 02:12 PM
Anyway, how did she get the pearl?

Ibrîniðilpathânezel
04-27-2008, 05:03 PM
It may not exactly fit with the Melian story, but it does give a pointer, I think. Not all of the Noldor were unfriendly with the Elves, and I suspect that if Feanor had other gems of his making, he might well have taken them with him when he left Valinor (especially given his anger at the Valar, and his unwillingness to have others touch his creations without his leave). Even if it didn't come from Feanor, he wasn't the only jewel-smith in Middle-earth. Celebrimbor was the greatest jewel-smith of Eregion, and by one version of the story in UT, created the version of the Elessar that came down to Aragorn through Galadriel. Since the smiths of Eregion were at one time friendly with Durin's folk, it's entirely possible the Arkenstone was made by them and given to the Dwarves of Khazad-dum as a token of the peace between them. Thorin was a direct descendant of Durin's line, so such a gift might well have become a treasured heirloom of his house, despite the animosity that eventually grew between the Elves and Dwarves.

Then again, this could be an example of what happens when things change in rewriting and revising. New things are substituted, but not all of the loose ends are removed. Could happen.

skip spence
04-28-2008, 12:54 AM
If we are going to speculate I may offer an alternative.

If I'm not mistaken, Finrod Felagund were said to have brought more riches out of Tirion than all the other elven princes put together. Maybe the Arkenstone, in this case quite possibly a work of Feanor, was a part of the Dwarves' payment for helping Felagund delve out Nargothrond?

(then again, would Feanor really give anything to Finrod, son of Finarfin, son of Indis?)

skip spence
04-28-2008, 09:10 AM
Anyway, how did she get the pearl?

If my memory serves me well the great pearl was fished up in the Bay of Balar by Cirdan (maybe not personally but you get my point) and given to Thingol among many others of lesser scale and beauty. The Dwarves went crazy about 'em as they'd seen nothing like it before. Remember, a mere glimpse of the ocean was enough to make a dwarf shriek like a sissy.

William Cloud Hicklin
05-06-2008, 08:54 PM
The story of Melian's gem seems lijke an (abortive) attempt by Tolkien to create a backstory for the Arkenstone ( and demonstrate it was not, in fact, a Silmaril); but elsewhaere he says, I believe in App a Durin's Folk, that Thrain I discovered the Arkenstone digging under Erebor. So it doesn't quite fit the gift-of-the-Noldor theory.

Eönwë
05-07-2008, 09:49 AM
Ok, well maybe other stones went into the earth with the Arkenstone, or from Angband. Just a suggestion (I don't have any evidence anywhere to back this up)

Morthoron
05-07-2008, 12:13 PM
I'm not near any reference material, but I seem to recall the Arkenstone described as much larger than the Silmarils. After all, one Sil fit in Beren's clenched fist, and I seem to remember the Arkenstone as a much bigger gem for Bilbo to carry (although the size difference between Hobbit and Man could be a variable).

Morthoron
05-08-2008, 09:30 PM
Regarding the comparative size of the Arkenstone to a Silmaril, there is this from the Hobbit:

His [Bilbo's] small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem.

Again, I realize there was a marked difference in size between Bilbo and Beren (who clutched a Silmaril in his closed fist), but it does give one pause to consider a size difference in the two gems. In addition, The Hobbit text states that the Arkenstone 'was cut and fashioned by the dwarves', meaning it was faceted and shaped from a larger raw stone. Would the dwarves ever consider cutting and fashioning a peerless gem such as a Silmaril? The dwarves of Nogrod refashioned the Nauglamir to fit the Silmaril, but they did not tamper with the gem itself (after all, who better than a dwarf to understand all the facets of such perfection?).

Formendacil
05-08-2008, 10:15 PM
Would the dwarves ever consider cutting and fashioning a peerless gem such as a Silmaril?


A stronger objection in the same vein might run thus: COULD the Dwarves even cut and fashion a Silmaril? I believe there is something in the Silmarillion to the effect that the Silmarils were unbreakable except by Fëanor himself, so craftily were they made.

Or it's too late at night and I'm getting things confused. Don't think so though...

In any case, without giving a fuller argument at all, count me down as quite opposed to any suggestion that the Arkenstone was a Silmaril.

Macalaure
05-09-2008, 01:54 PM
I think only some rampant and unfounded speculation can help us to solve this question. ;)

Just as Gwaihir said in the thread Hookbill linked to, the Silmaril could have traveled via the convective force within the mantle of Middle-earth and resurfaced thousands of miles away. The fact that the Lonely Mountain was, well, lonely, suggests a volcanic origin.

Now, how can the Arkenstone be the Silmaril if it doesn't meet its appearance and size? During its travels through the mantle, it would be possible that other material has settled around it, making increasing its size. Nothing would speak against the Dwarves cutting this outer material, fashioning the resulting Arkenstone, without ever touching the Silmaril inside. The Silmaril's beauty and attraction would be diminished, but still great. Its power to burn unclean flesh could be affected, too.

It is also entirely possible that a few people, such as Gandalf, knew about its secret, but wisely concealed it so that no (more) trouble about it would emerge.

Eönwë
05-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Macalaure, this is a good point, quite similar to what I thought before.

Also, if I remember correcctly, there were no gems before the Noldor, so the Arkenstone must have come from somewhere.

Macalaure
05-10-2008, 05:13 AM
Whoops... didn't read the first post carefully enough.

Just ignore me. :o

William Cloud Hicklin
05-11-2008, 09:00 PM
Also, if I remember correcctly, there were no gems before the Noldor, so the Arkenstone must have come from somewhere.

That was Tolkien's earlier idea, but helater changed his mind: the Noldor first found gems, but didn't invent them.

Morthoron
05-12-2008, 06:05 AM
Then, there is the apocryphal statement that Feanor will unlock the Silmarils at the end of the world (after Tolkien's version of Ragnarok). Plus, I don't think there was enough time, geophysically speaking, for an errant gem to find its way from the edge of the Belegaer all the way to the heart of Erebor and embed itself in a crust of rock for the Dwarves to conveniently find and tinker with. Things like that don't occur in a 5 or 10 thousand year period. Unless of course it wanted to be found...mwahahaha.

Gwathagor
05-12-2008, 09:53 PM
Well...one Silmaril did fall into the earth. Perhaps that was nearer to Erebor. Or was that one consumed by magma? But, even if it wasn't, I think it's a good point that there would not have been enough time for more crystal-junk to accumulate around the gem, which is necessary for the transformation into the Arkenstone. I rather doubt that anyone other than Feanor would have had the ability to alter a Silmaril, so without extra crystal formation around it, the dwarves probably wouldn't have been able to do any cutting or shaping - nor would they have wanted to.

ArathornJax
05-13-2008, 08:25 PM
I don't see how the Arkenstone can be a Silmaril. First, the Silmarils were hallowed by Varda that no mortal hands or flesh unclean or evil could handle them but that they would be scorched. There are no exceptions here and dwarves are not like the Eldar, immortal, but only have an extended lifespan, and in the end, die as they are mortals.

Mandos said that they contained in them the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air were locked in them. And in the end, that is where they went into the earth, the sea and one placed in the air until after the final battle.

Based on this I believe that the Silmarils are found in the sky or air, in the depths of the earth and in the depths of the sea until the final battle. The Arkenstone is just what it is, a jewel that is beautiful and desirable but not a Silmaril.

What is interesting to me is the similarity between Feanor and Thorin. Feanor eventually begun to be greedy about the Silmarils, showing them only to his seven sons and his father, forgetting that the light within them was not his own. Thorin too, became very greedy with the Arkenstone, to the point of forgetting all the good Bilbo had done and wanting him dead. Why, because the Arkenstone was a Silmaril? No, but its beauty and power burned to his dwarven heart and his greed made him forget about the finer things in life. Unlike the Silmarils which drove the sons of Feanor to their deaths, the Arkenstone united the men of Dale/Longlake, the Elves of Mrikwood and the Dwarves of Erebor when Dain paid the debt for the Arkenstone and it was placed on Thorin in his tomb. Clearly for me, and others can dispute my belief and that is fine, IF the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, after defeating the Goblins and Wargs, the Elves, Men and Dwarves would have gone at it. That didn't happen (unlike the events at Doriath) and instead the Arkenstone is a great and wonderful jewel, an heirloom of Durin's folks and their kings, and it brought unity as Bilbo intended and nothing more. And for that matter, Bilbo did not scorch and wither after touching the Arkenstone several times (being mortal).

For me the Silmarils were not destined for this world to be seen until after the final battle . . . that is, unless Indiana Jones gets news of them and goes hunting them . . . then all bets are off.

Eönwë
05-14-2008, 03:16 PM
But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

Morthoron
05-14-2008, 08:06 PM
But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

The Silmaril, a holy jewel containing the mingled light of the Two Trees, in direct contact with the One Ring, the symbol of corruption and great evil? Bilbo would have imploded.

Lindale
06-26-2008, 08:21 AM
But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

I beg to differ. Bearing a Ring of power, even if it is the greatest, does not take away mortality. What it does, mainly, is like.... too little butter on too large a toast.

And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

There... I think that would disclose any theory that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril. Not withstanding the argument that no mortal hand can touch a Silmaril by virtue of Varda's blessing... and come on. Though Thorin can be considered a "high" dwarf, a Silmaril, something that hallowed, would not suffer such a meager fate. (Meager in the sense that what, it'll just lie forever in the hands of a Dwarvish skeleton in a mountain.)

Hot, crispy nice hobbit
06-26-2008, 08:35 AM
Speaking of which, the Arkenstone seemed to have a hold on Thorin's mind somewhat like that of the 7 rings. Maybe it was crafted with the aid of Sauron's rings?

"Prreecciiiouuss..." - Thorin Oakenshield

Lindale
06-27-2008, 10:47 PM
DIdn't the Dwarves find the Arkenstone in the Lonely Mountain as an uncut gem? Haven't got my Hobbit with me, but I'll bet my life, it's a natural stone...

TheGreatElvenWarrior
07-04-2008, 12:22 AM
The Arkenstone was not a silmaril, I'm pretty sure because the silmarils as stated earlier were very precious and it was said that they were in their proper places until the world was ending, so the Arkenstone=Silmaril, no. Besides mortals weren't supposed to touch them. Also I don't think that they have very much in common with each other other than they are both beautiful jewels that bring out ones greediness. Also the Arkenstone I believe had many more sides than a Silmaril had and looked a bit different otherwise too. They both had internal lights, but I would definitely think that the SIlmaril's would be more wholesome, if you know what I mean, because the light comes from the two trees themselves... Did the Arkenstone's light have a warm glow like a living object, or was it a kind of white light?

Stoatly Grimes
07-05-2008, 05:07 PM
I have read most of the posts relating to this idea of the Arkenstone being a Silmaril. I am surprised at how many of you people seem to entertain this clearly false idea. I feel I need to step in to bring some sense to the table.

I genuinely am shocked at how Tolkien's language is misunderstood in this particular debate. I understand that in the Balrog wings debate / Elf ear-shape debate etc. his ambiguous language serves to fuel debate and provides ammunition for both sides, but on this Arkenstone matter you are fooling yourselves. You are looking for evidence that is not there, and re-wording or re-interpreting Tolkien's language in order to make it fit. Have you heard of Occam's Razor? At a certain point you must step back and realise that the argument in favour of the proposition is extraordinarily cumbersome and full of holes.

Don't get me wrong, full respect to Gwaihir for that interesting article about volcanoes etc. I'm not having a go at him; I fear the talons immensely.

The idea that a Silmaril could be tossed aside (as it is when Thorin dies) is ridiculous and anyone with an understanding of the Silmarillion should realise this. The entire story is based upon the covetous nature the gems instill in beings and the years of terrible deeds that result.

It is possible that another gem existed in Arda. Wow! Think about that. In fact the Hobbit quite clearly explains that this stone was discovered in uncut form and worked by the dwarves.

Not everything in Tolkien has to be tied in and interlinked.

(Though I did read an interesting theory recently - tongue-in-cheek of course - that Bombadil and the Witch-king are the same person)

Morthoron
07-05-2008, 08:16 PM
(Though I did read an interesting theory recently - tongue-in-cheek of course - that Bombadil and the Witch-king are the same person)

Bombadil and the WiKi as alter-egos? Let's do pros and cons, shall we?

Pros

1. They are never seen together (hmmm...very suspicious).

2. Although Bombadil's clothing is colorfully garish, it could well be hidden beneath the WiKi's black cloak (the yellow boots present a problem though).

3. Goldberry and Eowyn both had blonde hair (one considered him a lady-killer, the other was his killer-lady).

4. Both had power over evil spirits (in fact, both had an intimate knowledge of the Barrow Downs).

5. Forn and WiKi both have four letters, while WitchKing and Orald each have two syllables! It is almost cabalistic in a numerological sense.

6. Both the WitchKing and Bombadil may have been borrowed in part by Tolkien from ancient texts (Bombadil has affinities to Väinämöinen from the Kalevala, and the WitchKing to the witch-king Þráinn, a draugr from the Icelandic saga Hrómundar saga Gripssonar).

7. Both lived an extraordinarily long time (although no mention is made of either prior to the forging of the Rings).

8. Bombadil was rather animated and joking, while WiKi was wooden and devoid of humor (perhaps overcompensating, huh?).

9. Tom could see Frodo while he was wearing the Ring, as did the WiKi.

10. The WitchKing conducts an all-encompassing war that destroys the Dunedain in Eriador, but miraculously Tom and his forest are untouched!

Cons

1. There is really only one comment to be made here (aside from Gandalf going to have a long talk with Tom after the War of the Ring), that is -- Tom had the Ring in his grasp, played a parlor trick with it, then handed it back to Frodo and assured his safety thereafter.

Ah well, another perfectly good conspiracy theory down the drain.

Rune Son of Bjarne
07-06-2008, 09:06 AM
That was an interesting read, but I think I would have placed

" 8. Bombadil was rather animated and joking, while WiKi was wooden and devoid of humor (perhaps overcompensating, huh?)."

because if you start taking in the differences between them as a sign of them being the same. . . . well then almost everything would speak for them being the same being.

ianintheuk
07-08-2008, 04:38 AM
Let's kill this once and for all the answer is NO !!!

Morthoron
07-08-2008, 09:26 AM
Let's kill this once and for all the answer is NO !!!

Thank goodness you didn't reply earlier. We wouldn't have had this interesting discussion with such an emphatic reply.

Now, since you are inclined to imperatives, did Balrogs have wings, or did they not? We need to settle this once and for all. ;)

Stoatly Grimes
07-08-2008, 07:06 PM
Morthoron

Interesting.

I was actually referring to the "evidence" presented here:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm

As I said previously, it is totally tongue-in-cheek; I mentioned it because I think the Arkenstone-Silmaril theory is just as ridiculous.

Morthoron
07-08-2008, 07:15 PM
Morthoron

Interesting.

I was actually referring to the "evidence" presented here:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm

As I said previously, it is totally tongue-in-cheek; I mentioned it because I think the Arkenstone-Silmaril theory is just as ridiculous.

Stoat:

Realizing you were being tongue-in-cheek, I thought I'd be mildly impertinent in return. ;) Anyway, it is quite hilarious the fellow @ flyingmoose.org came up with many of the same points that I did (although I thought my references to Väinämöinen and Þráinn gave my piece an almost scholarly flare :rolleyes:).

Ah well, you know what they say: great mimes wink alike.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit
07-09-2008, 12:09 AM
It was said in Silmarillion that:

And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

Seemed somewhat intuitive that the Silmaril in the volcano should still be in the molten core of the Earth instead of being dug up and chiseled into some twopenny worth of heirloom...

Lothriel
07-09-2008, 03:58 AM
Plus that and the fact that the light that the silmarils gave off was very great. In the Hobbit the Arkenstone is described to have a pallid light when he approached it with his torch, and when he came close, it reflected and glinted with thousands of facets of colour...much as a huge, good, well faceted diamond would.

But if it were a silmaril in the dragon horde he really wouldn't need a torch to see or find it, it would glow in the darkness like a star landed on the earth. And if he had picked it up and put it in his pocket it would have pretty much glowed through the fabric of his clothes and everyone would have pointed to him and said

"Why dear Bilbo, is that a Silmaril in your pocket or are you just happy to see us?"

Plus I do believe that when Bilbo uncovered it infront of the Bard and Thranduil, the big elf King would have known it for what it was, having been a kinsman of Thingols and all there's a good chance he would have perhaps seen the stone if not have at least heard the story often enough to identify it on sight.

So no, I really don't think there's a chance in Carn Dum that the Arkenstone was a Silmaril.

Lindale
07-09-2008, 10:44 AM
Why are we still talking about this... it's in the books, there are quotes on the thread to prove it...

Stoatly Grimes
07-09-2008, 06:29 PM
(although I thought my references to Väinämöinen and Þráinn gave my piece an almost scholarly flare :rolleyes:).

It certainly did give you a scholarly flare, my learned friend.