Hard to Fathom..

[Gorthol]

I read alot about the Rings of Power yesterday and one thing that came to my mind was that, it seems as if a Dwarf could almost avoid the "negative" affects of a Ring and still benefit from all the "good" sides:

"Positive effects":
* All the rings were originally made for preservation or slowing of decay.
* Also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor.
* Rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
* Unending life.

Negative effects:
* A lust for domination of others.
* Wrath and an overmastering greed.
* The user would fade and become a wraith under the control of Sauron.

However, it also says that, Dwarves "..ill endure the domination of others..", they *can't* be turned to shadow, and the
thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom. So, if a dwarf uses his ring he would have unending life, with the possibility of rendering invisible whenever he wanted. Still he would never become a wraith or fade, nor will he be subject to the direct control by Saurons will.

So the only "side effects" I see clearly by a dwarf using his ring would be, a lust for domination of others, wrath and an overmastering greed.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That's all well and dandy if you're a dwarf but not if you're anyone else in Middle Earth.

[Meoshi]

Of course, dwarves already have most of those bad traits to some degree, so having the Ring would turn an average dwarf into an incredibly awful dwarf.

[Gorthol]

That's all well and dandy if you're a dwarf but not if you're anyone else in Middle Earth

Well I thought it pretty obvious that my post did refer to dwarves only..

..it seems as if a Dwarf could almost..

[Elentári]

i was pretty sure that only the One Ring rendered the wearer (and only then if the wearer had limited power, unlike Sauron) invisible. Gandalf and Galadriel were not invisible, were they?
Also, who said that unending life was a good thing? on the green books section (i cant remember where and unfortunately i dunno how to phrase this...) it said that each mortal has a certain span of life, and they can enjoy it to a certain extent. with unending life u r merely continuing, ur enjoyment of life is stretched beyond the norm to suit the extension of life- thus Bilbo felt he was like butter scraped over too much bread, or something. the extension of life does not give added power, just more time to use the same amount or whatever...soz that was a completely messed up attempt at some kind of an argument...lol

[Lord of Angmar]

Well, first off, the Dwarf Rings did not (that we know of) make their wearer invisible. In fact, the only ring of the Great Rings mentioned to have that ability was Sauron's own, and even that only turned wearers of a lesser degree of power invisible; its power increased as the power of the wearer increased.

Secondly, the Dwarven Rings still did evil in that they kindled a great lust and desire for gold and treasures, even more so than the normal dwarf. This could mean, given the already easily-wrathful nature of the dwarves, that they would go to great lengths and commit great evils to get a treasure of their desire (think of the battle over the Nauglamir except intensified by the Dwarf rings!... scary).

The Dwarf Rings were, in my opinion, the most mysterious of all, but certainly their bad outweighed the good.

[Legolas]

However, it also says that, Dwarves "..ill endure the domination of others..", they *can't* be turned to shadow,

This "shadow" is evil, I think - not death. The dwarven ring-bearers were mortal just as the human ring-bearers were, and would still die. They simply did not turn to Sauron's evil ways, or become wraiths as the men did.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lord of Angmar]

The Dwarves do not work for other powers or forces other than their own work; digging for gems, masonry, etc. They do not fight battles unless they themselves or their works are threatened.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Well, first off, the Dwarf Rings did not (that we know of) make their wearer invisible. In fact, the only ring of the Great Rings mentioned to have that ability was Sauron's own,

Lord of Angmar, in fact, this is also said of the Nine Rings smilies/wink.gif

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men
Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age; The Silmarillion

[Meoshi]

Also, who said that unending life was a good thing? on the green books section (i cant remember where and unfortunately i dunno how to phrase this...) it said that each mortal has a certain span of life, and they can enjoy it to a certain extent. with unending life u r merely continuing, ur enjoyment of life is stretched beyond the norm to suit the extension of life- thus Bilbo felt he was like butter scraped over too much bread, or something. the extension of life does not give added power, just more time to use the same amount or whatever...soz that was a completely messed up attempt at some kind of an argument...lol

Personally, I think he's right. Unending life, unless I lived in a world where everyone else had it as well, would be unbearable. Everyone I knew would die off before I knew it.

[Lord of Angmar]

Amarie: Good point, the Ringwraiths were also endowed with the power of invisibility. This ability stemmed from the fact that they were rooted in the wraith world. The One Ring, I am supposing, brings its wearer into the wraith world. I had neglected to mention that the One Ring's ability to make its wearer invisible was because it took them to wraith world. I had I done so, I would surely have remembered that it was not the only of the rings to grant invisibility. Thank you for correcting me!

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, first off, the Dwarf Rings did not (that we know of) make their wearer invisible. In fact, the only ring of the Great Rings mentioned to have that ability was Sauron's own,

Is there any reason why the Seven Dwarf Rings should not confer invivibility on those who wore them, at least on those upon whom the Nine and the One conferred invisibility (ie Men and Hobbits at least)? I would tend to the view that they would in fact confer invisibility on a sutiable wearer for the simple reason that they were forged under Sauron's influence using the same craft as was used in the creation of the Nine and the One, and with much the same purpose in (Sauron's) mind.

We never hear of them conferring invisibility, but that may just be because they were borne only by Dwarves. And quite possibly Dwarves were immune to that aspect of the Rings' powers, in the same way that they were not susceptible to the power of the Rings to draw the bearer into the realm of shadow.

No, I can see no reason in principle why a Man or Hobbit wearing one of the Seven would not become invisible.

[Lord of Angmar]

Simply put, we do not know if the Dwarf rings conferred invisibility and therefore it cannot be assumed that they did. Sauron would have no reason for imbuing such a power on the Dwarf rings, much as he would have no reason for doing so for the Elven rings. Sauron knew that Elves and Dwarves would not be turned over to the wraith world, and the only purpose of invisibility in the One Ring and the Nine Rings was to make the wearer visible to those in the wraith world (i.e. when Frodo puts on the ring and the Witch-King is instantly aware of him).

[Gorthol]

Uhm, have you all read this:

According to Letter #131, the Seven and Nine conferred invisibility to the user as well as unending life. Also, the ability to make the wearer invisible seems to be a controllable power - not always "activated", but rather selectable when the wearer desires to be invisible. However, eventually the user would fade and become a wraith under the control of Sauron, the Dark Lord. The Three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility, because this is a power from Sauron, and Sauron did not have a part in the creation of the Three Elven Rings, nor did he ever touch them.

So we can conclude that a dwarf would have unending life with his ring and that he could be invisible at will?


"they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts..." [7]

From this I conclude that they couldn't be dominated by Sauron through their rings, and that they couldn't be turned to shadows. The rings *did* confer invisibility and unending life since it says so.

Elentári: I agree with your statement concerning Bilbo and the "butter". Still Bilbo was to be considered a "Man", and thus he would in time be turned to a shadow. I'm only concerned with what happened to a dwarf. Gollums extension of *his* life, did give him alot of cunning and wisdom far beyond what others had in certain areas, hide, stealth, climb and whatever.. so I don't agree with your last statement.

Lord of Angmar: One of my "negative effects"
does include that Wrath and an overmastering greed.

And quite possibly Dwarves were immune to that aspect of the Rings' powers,
I would agree if it weren't for the letter above, since it says that the "..Seven and Nine conferred invisibility to the user as well as unending life.." this must apply to dwarves also..

[The Saucepan Man]

Simply put, we do not know if the Dwarf rings conferred invisibility and therefore it cannot be assumed that they did.

Well, I would rather say that in the absence of firm evidence no definite conclusions may be drawn either way, although opinions may be expressed on the evidence that there is.

But, as Gorthol has shown, we do have conclusive evidence on this point. I really must read the Letters some time. smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/cool.gif

[Gorthol]

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. `change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching `magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron...such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." [5]

It's to be found in several places that they did confere invisibility.

So where are we now with our Dwarfking wearing one of the Seven:

* He's greedy as hell.
* He's quick to lose temper.
* He's got a lust for domination of others.

* He's got unending life, will not fade to the shadow world cause he's too solid.
* He can't be dominated by others, nor can anyone read his heart through the ring he wears.
* He's got a ring with a capability of enhancing his natural powers. Which makes him even more kingly.
* His ring will slow the passage of time and preserve beauty.
* He can *at will* become invisble, see the invisible world and all there in, and return whenever he wants to.

Well, I give you a greedy dwarf who wants to dominate others, and lives forever, and can be invisble even when fighting, that's a helluva killer machine.

[The Saucepan Man]

... that's a helluva killer machine

Although clearly not enough to prevent four of the Dwarven Ringbearers being consumed by the Dragons in whose stomachs their Rings ended up. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Gorthol]

Well, what I wanted to conclude was that there seems almost "as if it's worth it" wearing one of the Seven *if* you're a Dwarf.. and thats interesting. Still I guess you'd probably end up filled with hate and corrupted in one way or another through the ring.

[Legolas]

"However, it also says that, Dwarves "..ill endure the domination of others..", they *can't* be turned to shadow, "

This "shadow" is evil, I think - not death. The dwarven ring-bearers were mortal just as the human ring-bearers were, and would still die. They simply did not turn to Sauron's evil ways, or become wraiths as the men did.

I said that before, and it is yet to be denied.

Letter No. 131 says this:

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

Nowhere does it say that the Rings granted immortality to the bearer. The Men "lived" on as wraiths, but this is an entirely different matter. They still died, effectively; that is, their bodies were left to rot and their spirits left them...
There's no reason to think that, if dwarven ring-bearers did not become wraiths, that they would live forever.

[ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I am going to paraphrase because my book is not with me (sneaky girl, gets online at work...), but there is a quote in Chapter 2 of FOTR that conveys basically this:

Someone wearing one of the great rings "does not grow or obtain more life" the life they have is simply stretched over a wearying amount of time. That isn't "eternal life" in the sense of elven immortality, that is "near-perpetual changelessness".

Add this to wrath and domination and you've got a pretty miserable Dwarven Lord, I think, with a lot of foul deeds on his conscience. I think that's negative effect enough, though the Dwarven Lord is unlikely to agree with me.

A purely speculative thought on invisibility and the elven rings. Why would the Celebrimbor feel a need to give the elven rings the power to "insert" the wearer in the "spiritual" world of ME? We see at the Fords of Bruinen, that Glorfindel can freely move in that world, and we are told that the great among the Eldar move in both worlds at once. So that would have been neither a benefit nor a temptation for the forger of the elven rings. It was only the mortals (who often had elf-envy anyway) that Sauron needed to manipulate with this "gift" of invisibility.

Did the elven rings give that "unchangingness" that the mortals' rings gave? This would also be unnecessary for the immortals, and Sauron had no hand in making them. Would a man or hobbit who wore Nenya or Vilya live indefinitely? smilies/wink.gif More speculation, I know.

Sophia

[ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

[Gorthol]

Many good posts concerning this matter, I found the answer finally in the Appendix A-F from "The Return of the King". And it's much in conjuction with what "Saucepan Man" already suggested.

And quite possibly Dwarves were immune to that aspect of the Rings' powers, in the same way that they were not susceptible to the power of the Rings to draw the bearer into the realm of shadow.

I'll translate what I found freely, "..the only power the ring had over them was that it poisoned their hearts with an overmastering greed for gold and valuables".

Later it states "They could never be turned to shadows under someone elses will.. nor had it any effect upon their lifespan, so that it made them live shorter or longer". Since the invisibility obviously was connected to the entering of the wraith / shadow world they probably didn't have this possibility either.

I guess this quote wouldn't apply to dwarves then..
According to Letter #131, the Seven and Nine conferred invisibility to the user as well as unending life. Also, the ability to make the wearer invisible seems to be a controllable power - not always "activated", but rather selectable when the wearer desires to be invisible. However, eventually the user would fade and become a wraith under the control of Sauron, the Dark Lord. The Three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility, because this is a power from Sauron, and Sauron did not have a part in the creation of the Three Elven Rings, nor did he ever touch them.

[ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Talking about the Seven Rings, I have one question, do you think that they were more powerful than the Nine?

Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find.
History of Galadriel and Celeborn; UT

The fact that Sauron could find the Nine but not the Seven, was only a coincidence or was due to the fact that the Elves of Eregion took greater care of them? What do you think? smilies/wink.gif

[Gorthol]

Sauron gave the Nine to Mortal Men who proved easiest to ensnare.

I guess the Nine were less powerful than the Seven, since Sauron probably knew that Men would be easier to ensnare and corrupt (as it says).

The fact that Sauron could find the Nine but not the Seven, was only a coincidence or was due to the fact that the Elves of Eregion took greater care of them? What do you think?

It seems by the writings as if the elves considered the Seven more valuable. "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain;"

[The Saucepan Man]

In researching on this topic, I came across the following statement in my Complete Tolkien Companion (by JEA Tyler):

But the Great Rings, the Nine and the Seven, had other qualities: they gave long life and many different powers of mind and hand. But Sauron's hand was also on their making (with the exception of the Chief Dwarf-ring), and so these inherent powers were distorted far beyond what the Elven-smiths had intended; and they would all prove susceptible to the One Ring which Sauron planned to make.

Now, much of that has already been covered in previous posts, although the reference to "many different powers of mind and hand" is interesting. But what interests me more is the comment that I have put in bold type concerning the chief Dwarf-ring. Now, I do not know where this comes from, but I generally find Tyler's book to be fairly reliable. Possibly it comes from one of the HoME series which I have not read. But, when I read this, I wondered whether there may be any significance in the fact that Sauron had no hand in the making of one of the Seven Rings. Is anyone able to offer any enlightenment on this?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I think that this quote can explain the comment in Tyler's book smilies/wink.gif:

the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone (...) the Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elevn-smiths themselves, and not by Sauron]
History of Galadriel and Celeborn; UT

Sad to say, it seems that Tyler's comment is only a Dwarves' tale smilies/frown.gif

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Some of the rings gave invisibility, but I think it depended on the bearer whether or not they did, as a dominant spirit, unmasterable, would be able to hide the ring, as the wielders of the three, and Bombadil with the one ring did. But at any rate, that explains the dwarves reasoning in lusting after the ring of Thror.