Who told you that?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I just began a quick re-read of The War of the Jewels and a thought struck me early on. I was reading this passage;

"Then Osse and Uinen came to them, and dwelt in the Isle of Balar, and became the friends of the Teleri and taught them all manner of sea-lore and sea-music
...
And [Osse] taught to them the craft of ship building and of sailing..."

It's an odd thing that has always been in my mind about a lot of mythology in general. The higher powers always seem to have knowledge of things which they then teach to the creatures. Where did the Valar and Maiar learn their skills to teach the Elves?

The obvious answers that jump to mind I have given a little thought to. They spent a lot of their time, before the Elves awoke, learning skills by a sort of trial and error method. The Valar have 'powers' to form the lands, trees and so on, but when it comes to characters like, as above, Osse and some like Aule, they have, as it were, none-supernatural skill... Natural skill, I suppose. Yet these supposedly natural skills come out of nowhere. They are always refined to the sort we know; metal work, shipbuilding and so on.
Perhaps they had enough time to go through the evolution of design, as it were, to make smith-craft and ship-craft a reality. But it raises more questions; why did they feel they needed these skills? We know that the Valar and Maiar could exist without physical form, traversing the waters without the need for ships. So why did they start building ships? Did they know the Elves would need them? You could say that Aule was commissioned to make something that could hold Melkor and in the process discovered the method of smithying we know.
The other explanation I can think of is that Illuvatar taught them, or showed them these things in the Music.

It seems a bit random to me that these skills are taken as matter of fact. Many myths have their gods knowing about complicated farming methods, ship building and smith-craft. Is that what Tolkien is doing here? Alluding to the idea that, behind the smithy and shipwright, there is a power that invented it? Are the Valar and Maiar, therefore, more than the shapers of Ea and are more active partners in it? Am I, as usual, talking absolute nonsense?

You decide!

[alatar]

I think that in many mythologies/belief systems that the god or gods are the possessors of all knowledge. He/She/It/They have this information from the beginning by definition ('Gods are typically all-knowing.'). All - or when there's a pantheon, some - things that are, were, to be and can be are already known.

The knowledge is then given to the lesser beings. There are Golden Ages when ancestors knew much more, but, being part of the world and not that of the gods, this knowledge is lost.

As examples, by the Third Age in Middle Earth, there are none that have the subtlety and understanding to make Silmarils (okay, so the Trees were gone too). The Dwarves surpass their ancestors in few ways, but as a whole, know and can do/make less than Durin I. The elves - those that haven't left - make not much more than lembas and cloaks. The men of Westernesse no longer make towers like Orthanc or knives like Sting.

"For it is the doom of men that they forget." - Merlin in Excalibur

So, in many mythologies, we're experiencing a knowledge entropy where, if one were to graph it, would be a downward asymptotic curve where we'll always know some things, but nothing like our ancestors or the gods.

To me, however, in the real world, it's the exact opposite.

[Morthoron]

"For it is the doom of men that they forget." - Merlin in Excalibur

I own an Excalibur DVD. I don't know why. Much of it is rather silly, but I watch it every once in a while anyway. That must make me silly as well. *shrugs*

So, in many mythologies, we're experiencing a knowledge entropy where, if one were to graph it, would be a downward asymptotic curve where we'll always know some things, but nothing like our ancestors or the gods.

To me, however, in the real world, it's the exact opposite.

I agree with you to a great extent, Alatar (or can I just call you Al?), but in regards to the 'real world' being the exact opposite, it depends on what you are referring to. I know for instance that there are many dying trade arts (plastering and wood joinery come to mind), and I know that many ceramics and porcelains cannot be duplicated from the 19th/early 20th century (I am no expert, so I can't offer a feasible explanation). In addition, in Michigan (which, surprisingly to some perhaps, has a large population of stabled horses) there are very few farriers or blacksmiths to meet the demand of shodding and other equinery (I believe I've just coined a word).

So, like I said, it depends on the abilities/trades you are referring to.

[alatar]

I own an Excalibur DVD. I don't know why. Much of it is rather silly, but I watch it every once in a while anyway. That must make me silly as well. *shrugs*
Might have it on VHS, which, as an example of the real world, proves my point.

I agree with you to a great extent, Alatar (or can I just call you Al?),
I have no preference; just don't call me 'late for dinner.' My real world name is "Pestilence," and so Al is just fine. ;)

but in regards to the 'real world' being the exact opposite, it depends on what you are referring to. I know for instance that there are many dying trade arts (plastering and wood joinery come to mind), and I know that many ceramics and porcelains cannot be duplicated from the 19th/early 20th century (I am no expert, so I can't offer a feasible explanation). In addition, in Michigan (which, surprisingly to some perhaps, has a large population of stabled horses) there are very few farriers or blacksmiths to meet the demand of shodding and other equinery (I believe I've just coined a word).

So, like I said, it depends on the abilities/trades you are referring to.
Tablets onto which to poke cuneiform are as rare as Betamax versions of Peter Jackson's LotR, and yet I don't feel the lack.

My point is that, if we wanted to, we could relearn how to care for horses as you say - maybe even in a better though different way. The exact information may be lost, but the ability isn't. I just think of all of the technological advances that we (well, other people that I'll glom onto) have made. Used to be that we saw stars in the heavens; now we see galaxies smashing into each other (http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080420.html) in HD. Before, demons caused most ills whereas today we know about germs. Used to be maps contained sea dragons where information was scant; now Google Maps just states that the information isn't available at that resolution.

[Eönwë]

So, in many mythologies, we're experiencing a knowledge entropy where, if one were to graph it, would be a downward asymptotic curve where we'll always know some things, but nothing like our ancestors or the gods.

To me, however, in the real world, it's the exact opposite.

Well, maybe now, but it was not always like that. If you went to Egypt 1000 years ago and asked anyone to build a pyramid, they would just laugh at you (Even with enough manpower).

In fact, to me it seems that things did go slightly downward in the technological level in the early middle ages.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think that my question is more to do with why Vala and Maiar felt that they may have needed certain skills. Aule is defendable; he was asked to make the lamps of the Valar. We may assume the others intuitively knew that he had a creative skill surpassing their own and this was where he, as it were, invented the craft. From there on we may assume he got interested in it and began 'experimenting' or something until he became a smith.

As for Osse, I find fewer answers. Why ships? They plainly didn't 'need' them to cross the sea. Any craft being devised for pleasure has usually been through a long period where it was simply necessary. Did Osse invent the art of ship building just for the elves, there and then? Had he been thinking about it for a while and then got a light bulb above his head?

As for the idea of crafts degrading over time, I suppose it depends on your perspective, really. Needs change over time and so crafts must adapt to them. The more adept a craft is, then the 'higher' it is. If you are talking purely about aesthetic beauty, in this modern age it may be argued that less thought is given to it than of old.
But yes, every good myth needs its Golden Age. It's a great plot devise, something to reminisce about and, often, bring some mystery. Numenor is a fine example. More than a Golden Age for men, really. It's a symbol that runs through the psyche of the descendants and those affected by them. Their craft and skill is but one part of their influence, you may say.

[Alfirin]

Well, maybe now, but it was not always like that. If you went to Egypt 1000 years ago and asked anyone to build a pyramid, they would just laugh at you (Even with enough manpower).

In fact, to me it seems that things did go slightly downward in the technological level in the early middle ages.

I can think of several "lost formulae" that would be very valuable today but are no longer within our knowedge. How about Damascus steel, generally still regarded as the finest in the world? We've gotten close but as far as I remember we still haven't made any steel in modern times that equals it in quality and toughness. Or "greek fire", we still don't know what went into that and I am sure there is someone who could find use for it in modern times. Lest you think all of the lost tecnology is exculsively military (and hence, some might argue, things which are better left lost) How about a Stradavarius violin. No morder violing make can make one as good and most reasarchers agree that it isn't all in the fact that they are so old. (one program I once saw suggested that the secer could be unusual growth rings in Italian trees caused by the climate condions durng the time preceding and during the so called "Little Ice Age"
For the most part I agree that in genereal as time progresses we tend to gain tecnical knowedge not lose it. but there are anomolies. The "Greek computer" has been discussed in an earlier thread, and most archeologists now concede that the "Bagdad Battery" really is a form of primitive electrical cell. There Hero's steam ball which had it been utilized (say some historians) could have given the ancient greeks the steam engine and the locomotive. Finally there is the famous "Pillar of Dheli" and iron pillar cast of such high grade metal that it has stood outdoors in a humid climate (India) for almost 2000 years as still show little or no signs of rust. that enogh for now

[alatar]

I can think of several "lost formulae" that would be very valuable today but are no longer within our knowedge. How about Damascus steel, generally still regarded as the finest in the world? We've gotten close but as far as I remember we still haven't made any steel in modern times that equals it in quality and toughness.
Surely we have even better materials today (but, being made in huge batches, aren't as unique as the thousands of individual mixes of steel). I would use the analogy of my wife's cookies. There was that one batch that was the best - all are mostly great - but some contaminant made that one batch stick out (could have been the coffee). And I found this (http://users.ntsource.com/~bluedevil/%20Tribune_damascus_steel.htm) regarding recapturing the tech.

Or "greek fire", we still don't know what went into that and I am sure there is someone who could find use for it in modern times.
A cruise missile or any of its small children isn't as useful? And against wooden sail boats? :eek:

Lest you think all of the lost tecnology is exculsively military (and hence, some might argue, things which are better left lost) How about a Stradavarius violin. No morder violing make can make one as good and most reasarchers agree that it isn't all in the fact that they are so old. (one program I once saw suggested that the secer could be unusual growth rings in Italian trees caused by the climate condions durng the time preceding and during the so called "Little Ice Age"
As you can guess, I can disagree here as well. Show me an objective 'double-blinded' study where a Strat is compared to a better quality violin made today. I've seen too many studies where 'designer labels' bias 'professionals' into making subjective judgments, thus securing their jobs.

Then again, with my tin ear, they'd both most likely sound like fiddles. ;)

For the most part I agree that in genereal as time progresses we tend to gain tecnical knowedge not lose it. but there are anomolies. The "Greek computer" has been discussed in an earlier thread, and most archeologists now concede that the "Bagdad Battery" really is a form of primitive electrical cell. There Hero's steam ball which had it been utilized (say some historians) could have given the ancient greeks the steam engine and the locomotive. Finally there is the famous "Pillar of Dheli" and iron pillar cast of such high grade metal that it has stood outdoors in a humid climate (India) for almost 2000 years as still show little or no signs of rust. that enogh for now
Surely there were smart (even smarter) people back then, but they didn't have the information that is at our fingertips today to help. On the other hand, to me most people are the same as they were in the past.

Sorry for being such a wet blanket.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

The ancients were not all inventors. Neither are the moderns... :D

Both Melkor and Aule were gifted craftsmen among the Valar. It was said that Aule took delight in teaching his little clay miniatures his crafts (Before being chatised by Illuvator) I wondered whether Melkor cradled his orks in his arms, and sank to them the lullaby of cannibalism and murder... I think there was a passage in "HoME: Morgoth's Ring" about Melkor visiting the Edain and teaching them stuff, before demanding interests.

"Loan of Knowledge - 40% interest rate. Lowest rate in all of Arda!" - University of Angband.

[Eönwë]

Surely we have even better materials today (but, being made in huge batches, aren't as unique as the thousands of individual mixes of steel). [...]Surely there were smart (even smarter) people back then, but they didn't have the information that is at our fingertips today to help. On the other hand, to me most people are the same as they were in the past.

What I meant was that it is only in the last century that regaining a lot of lost knowledge. For example, contact lenses (http://www.asnsw.com/universe/alternate/AU9/egyptianoptics.asp).

[alatar]

To get myself back on thread, I think that the Valar did not experiment as we may think of it. There weren't 27 trees, all essays in the craft of making the Two, where all 25 (27-Two) were just complete failures. In science/experimentation, there are usually more failures and dead ends than successes. Think of Osse experimenting with ships. How many elves did he drown until he got it right? Did some of Varda's stars crash into Arda as she just didn't use enough glue to keep them hanging in the sky?

On the other hand, not much is known about the world before the elves showed up, so maybe many of the flubs were hidden back in the depths of time.

And regarding Egyptian contact lenses - anything's possible, but why then do we not have other examples of their knowledge of optics? And sometimes we see the past through our present-day filters, seeing bits of small glass and seeing 'contact lenses,' whereas the Egyptians meant something completely different.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As you can guess, I can disagree here as well. Show me an objective 'double-blinded' study where a Strat is compared to a better quality violin made today.
There have in fact been many. Not just Stradivari, but in general the entire North Italian School about 1680-1750. Nobody has been able to figure it out. (there is one notable exception now: Brooklyn maker Sam Zygmuntowicz may have cracked it.)

[alatar]

More than you may have ever wanted to know about violins can be found here (http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/696).

In practice it is extremely difficult to distinguish between a particularly fine Stradivarius instrument and an indifferent modern copy on the basis of the measured response alone. The ear is a supreme detection device and the brain is a far more sophisticated analyser of complex sounds than any system yet developed to assess musical quality.
Quality in the hearing?


Top players regularly return their instruments to violin makers, who move the sound post and adjust the bridge in an effort to optimize the sound. This means that there is no unique set of vibrational characteristics for any particular instrument - not even a Stradivarius!
So even a Strad needs to be tuned/maintained, and in my hands, would sound like fingernails across a chalkboard.

Science has not provided any convincing evidence for the existence or otherwise of any measurable property that would set the Cremonese instruments apart from the finest violins made by skilled craftsman today. Indeed, some leading soloists do occasionally play on modern instruments. However, the really top soloists - and, not surprisingly, violin dealers, who have a vested interest in maintaining the Cremonese legend of intrinsic superiority - remain utterly unconvinced.
Though I didn't see the results of their double blind test (if anyone even performed one), sounds like they are making my point regarding subjectivity.

Not saying that I'm right or know what I'm talking about, but I remain a skeptic and cynic regarding this and most other things. :)

[Alfwine]

What you are all forgetting is that there is never one way to solve a problem. Take ship building, Ulmo could have invent airplanes instead, or submarines. It is not nessecary for the valor to have had these crafts perfactly refined beforehand and ready in a box to hand the elves. Perhaps it was Ulmo's on the spot solution to a problem (the elves needed to cross the water) he could have solved it other ways, but this was how he did it, so for us, who have been shown the/a solution, it seams only natural (of course build boats).

As for trial and error being nessecary, these are valar we are talking about. They have a very great knowlage of Tolkiens world (they built it). they know in detail everything from available resources to physics to just the way things work. even a modern man whith enough expiriance in "the way things work" can take up a new craft and have a relative success the first time. For instance, I have spent most of my life building things with my hands, I recently decided to build a yew longbow and wouldn't you know it, my first try went fine, tillered properly shoots well, no masterpiece, but good enough.

Now I didn't invent longbows but it just goes to show, if Ulmo wanted to get elves across the water (Ulmo knew a heck of a lot about water!) and decided he wanted to use ships, I think he probably could have built fiesable boats his first go (he is an increadibly powerful knowlageable and skilled being after all. he probably could have run design simulations in his head before even putting axe to wood).