Mordor inspired by Nazi Germany?

[Mansun]

I know Tolkein had flatly refused to link the LOTR with World War II, but who can resist drawing the comparisons between the mighty Dark Lord Sauron, amassing armies to assault Middle Earth, as with Adolph Hitler during his reign in Nazi Germany and his seige on Europe? Their respective ends differ somewhat, but their ambitions in life were tragically similar and malicious. Was this then the inspiration for the settings of Mordor and it's ruler as described in the LOTR?

[Groin Redbeard]

There might be something to what you say. Hitler was a manipulator and a deceiver, like Sauron. However, I do not think that this slight similarity was intentional.

Their respective ends differ somewhat, but their ambitions in life were tragically similar and malicious.
World domination were both of their goals, but isn't that every evil geniuses dream? :rolleyes: You would think that they would come up with something different but no... they have to have the world or die trying. ;) It would be very weird if Sauron proclaimed orcs to be the arian race.

[Mansun]

There might be something to what you say. Hitler was a manipulator and a deceiver, like Sauron. However, I do not think that this slight similarity was intentional.


World domination were both of their goals, but isn't that every evil geniuses dream? :rolleyes: You would think that they would come up with something different but no... they have to have the world or die trying. ;) It would be very weird if Sauron proclaimed orcs to be the arian race.


It is interesting that the Last Battle could have been compared with the Great War, and the Third Age reflecting the events of the Second World War. Mordor and Nazi Germany were perhaps too ambitious with their strategy for domination of other countries, leaving themselves exposed to a counterattack of some description.

Sauron could have held Mordor, in theory, for eternity if he chose to remain interested in defending Mordor only. I wonder if the same could have been true for Nazi Germany?

[Kitanna]

One of the things I love about good, solid literature is the ability to find symbolism where the author hadn't intended to put it. In this way you are free to draw your own conclusion to your life, to history, or to what you will without being right or wrong in your analysis.

Though Tolkien refused the connection to WWII in his works what an author witnesses in their lifetime can and often will come across in their writings, whether directly (as C.S. Lewis often did) or indirectly in Tolkien's case.

After taking a class about the military history of WWII I was often drawing connections to LOTR. Obviously Mordor can be seen as playing the role of Nazi Germany. There's a leader who was defeated once and spent time licking his wounds before unleashing himself on the world. Isengard plays a more Italian role. A great threat, but one that proves easier to beat thanks to the strength of an allied cause. In this case the Ents.

Gondor can be seen as the British. Gondor fought long and hard against Mordor often times holding it alone, much like Great Britain did after the defeat of France and while Russia and the US were trying to steer clear of trouble. And Rohan can be a more American role. They were fully roused to action after a grievous attack on their native soil (Helm's Deep as a sort of Pearl Harbor attack). In this case it would make Eomer an FDR figure, always pushing his countrymen forward because he understands this looming evil.

Sauron could have held Mordor, in theory, for eternity if he chose to remain interested in defending Mordor only. I wonder if the same could have been true for Nazi Germany?
The world probably would have let Hitler get away with violence and murders and defense of his borders as long as he stayed within his borders. Once he institutes blitzkrieg on a neighbor though... Sauron on the other hand was a known threat and countless lives would be lost trying to break through his border defenses to overthrow him.

[Rumil]

Go not to the elves etc. ;)

One thing to remember is that Tolkien was writing LoTR during the Second World War.

In spite of the darkness of the next five years I found that the story could not now be wholly abandoned, and I plodded on, mostly by night, till I stood by Balin's tomb in Moria. There I halted for a long while. It was almost a year later when I went on and came to Lothlorien and the Great River late in 1941.

I don't want to get into allegory or applicability territory ;) but I'm sure that WWII must have affected the story. Remember that as the Prof was writing 'Balin son of Fundin' the War was still very much in the balance. Perhaps the overwhelming power of the Sauronic forces reflects Britain's plight during that time. We could very well have lost without the Soviets and the USA. By late '41 both were our Allies and it looked as if we were going to be on the winning side, did this perhaps inspire the continuation of the story, knowing that someone would probably read it in the future? I'd guess that it would have been banned as 'anti-totalitarian propaganda' had the war gone the other way.

Also, a major influence was Tolkien's own front-line service in the tenches of WWI, which comes across to me in the Dead Marshes and the pits before the Morannon, and in the early Fall of Gondolin.

On WWII specifics, I've always had a fancy that the Nazgul's steeds were inspired by Stukas, same nasty wail and terrifying effect no doubt, and continually being shown bombing refugees in the British propaganda films of the time.

[Formendacil]

but who can resist drawing the comparisons between the mighty Dark Lord Sauron, amassing armies to assault Middle Earth, as with Adolph Hitler during his reign in Nazi Germany and his seige on Europe?


Me.

[Inziladun]

Rohan can be a more American role. They were fully roused to action after a grievous attack on their native soil (Helm's Deep as a sort of Pearl Harbor attack

Helm's Deep was not exactly a 'sneak attack'. The Rohirrim had already fought Saruman's forces at the Fords of Isen, which was where Théoden's son Théodred met his end. It must also be remembered that if not for Gandalf the victory at Helm's Deep would very likely not have occurred, and the King would have been captured or killed at Edoras. That said, I don't think Éomer can be compared to FDR. He was a military leader, perhaps more of a Patton, and had little influence on 'policy' decisions for the Rohirrim until very late in the War..

[Kitanna]

Helm's Deep was not exactly a 'sneak attack'.
I was speaking of it more on the fact it was on Rohan's land rather than it being a sneak attack. Rohan was no stranger to attacks like the US, but it took a major battle to move them forward into an aggressive position, much the the US couldn't be moved until after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

And as for FDR and Eomer both were trying to push their countries toward war for the security of their lands.

[Mansun]

Me.

Perhaps this thread is not for you then, Formendacil. This thread seeks intelligent posters of the highest order.

[Groin Redbeard]

And as for FDR and Eomer both were trying to push their countries toward war for the security of their lands.
I wouldn't go that far, FDR was cautious to keep America out of the war because the Americans wanted to stay out of it. Most likely America would have stayed out of the war in Europe entirely if it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on us.

I am entirely convinced that Tolkien meant what he said with not being inspired by events of WWII for the The Lord of the Rings, indeed I think that you could draw comparisons between any two things if you put your mind to it. It is neat to look at SOME of the similarities between the two. Gandalf for example would probably be the Winston Churchill of Middle Earth: desperately trying to wake people up to the danger that is coming and eventually succeeding.

That was a nice point that you made, Kitanna, in post four. :)

[Bêthberry]

Whoops, let's not get into personal attacks here; let's just look at the ideas. :)


If I may be permitted to take up Burrahobbit's mantle...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:

but who can resist drawing the comparisons between the mighty Dark Lord Sauron, amassing armies to assault Middle Earth, as with Adolph Hitler during his reign in Nazi Germany and his seige on Europe?


Me.


A clever acknowledgement of burrahobbit's clever and witty eloquence, Formendacil. I will go, however, for something less succinct.


Gondor can be seen as the British. Gondor fought long and hard against Mordor often times holding it alone, much like Great Britain did after the defeat of France and while Russia and the US were trying to steer clear of trouble.

Well, let's take this further to see what legs it can stand on. Who in Gondor would play Chamberlain's role of appeasement? What to do about that awkward bit about the king with Nazi sympathies who abdicated? Would that be Boromir, whose actions actually could have led to defeat? Who else would be the Mordor/Nazi sympathisers who were not uncommon in Britain before the war? Who would play Churchill's role of defiant conservative? Faramir? And what about those former colonies who came to the aid of Great Britain, as the little island didn't exactly stand alone--one of which was "rewarded" for its support and participation by having a beach all of its own to attack, Juno Beach, on D-Day.

And how would mad Denthor fit into the British situation of the time? Or would that be the king who abdicated rather than give up the woman he loved? Denethor's descent into depression, despair and madness began with his wife's death. Is there something here about men who care too much for their women? No, not really.

It is really important to look specifically at what Tolkien said about how a true comparison to WWII would look--it is not a very flattering portrayal of the Allies at all.

It would also be very easy to make comparisons between Mordor and Stalinist/communist Russia--both perpetrated unspeakable horrors on people who lived within their territories and both maintained prison camps for people and both persued networks of spies against their own citizens. Generalities can be compared easily but details are what makes a comparison really sustainable. jmho

[Rumil]

Hi all,

I find myself in good agreement with Bethberry's points (especially the first :D). Where is the renowned Burra these days anyway?

Who indeed gets to be Stalin? These sort of major details do not match up well between LoTR and WWII. The overall sort of thing - defeat of an aggressive 'evil empire' does, but not if you dig much deeper.

I think that there must be an argument, however, for Tolkien's writing process being affected by current affairs. The jouney started in 1936, and many have commented oh the lighter, 'fairie' feel of the first chapters, if I remember 'It feels diferent near the Shire' was one such thread. By 1940, however, the story is getting darker, and 'greater' if you know what I mean. Certainly I think that living through the most terrible and dramatic events of the 20th century, both WWI and WWII, must have affected the tone and broad themes of the book. I am willing to be proved wrong!

Rather OT, but Juno should never be forgotten, my Dad was there with the Canadians that day.

[Kitanna]

I wouldn't go that far, FDR was cautious to keep America out of the war because the Americans wanted to stay out of it. Most likely America would have stayed out of the war in Europe entirely if it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on us.
But FDR did everything in his power to bring the US into the war. He pushed buttons so the US would be a attacked and he knew the Americans wouldn't stand for an attack. FDR was eventually going to war with Germany and FDR was going to ensure that. He just got lucky when Hitler declared war first. Though I do understand what you mean by cautious. When playing the political card and reelection he had no choice.

Who indeed gets to be Stalin?
Who played both sides enough to warrant it? Saruman maybe, but only to the fact he switched sides. He certainly wasn't doing things for the same reason Stalin was.

[burrahobbit]

This thread seeks intelligent posters of the highest order.

Good luck, buddy.

Anyway.

I don't think you can say any of the events in the Lord of the Rings, or indeed any of Tolkien's work, is directly based on any events in the real world. Except perhaps Dinner. Dinner is a nice event that we don't take enough time with anymore.

That being said, the physical descriptions of Mordor are very clearly based on "no man's land" in WW1 which Tolkien experienced firsthand. So not Nazi Germany, and not politically any kind of Germany, but geographically related to German activities in some abstract way.

[Morthoron]

As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical...The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past', is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in my mind, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

The War of the Ring does not emulate WWII in the least, per the author. If anything, the battle and horror in the story reflect Tolkien's recollections of WWI:

One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead.

That being said, the physical descriptions of Mordor are very clearly based on "no man's land" in WW1 which Tolkien experienced firsthand. So not Nazi Germany, and not politically any kind of Germany, but geographically related to German activities in some abstract way.

Precisely, burrahobbit. The no-man's land of Mordor reflects Tolkien's memories of the barren no-man's land of the Somme, just as the Dead Marshes reflect the bloated, dead bodies of his comrades-in-arms floating in flooded bomb craters, and the valiant charge of the Rohirrim on Pelennor Field represents the last formidable cavalry charges of WWI (Tolkien being a cavalry man himself), before mechanized war and machine guns made cavalry obsolete.

But the political climate of Middle-earth does not reflect WWI Europe anymore than it does WWII. One could just as well equate Sauron to Kaiser Wilhelm's bloody imperialism and compare the Haradrim to the Turks, and the Hobbits as wild-eyed and innocent English boys naively marching towards the blood-strewn fields of Flanders. But one would be just as wrong.

[Mansun]

Good luck, buddy.



I say rather that fate will bring intelligence to this thread. Karma existed in Middle Earth, so why not here also?

[Morthoron]

Perhaps this thread is not for you then, Formendacil. This thread seeks intelligent posters of the highest order.

I say rather that fate will bring intelligence to this thread. Karma existed in Middle Earth, so why not here also?

Intelligence is all relative; in this case, relative to the replies and not to the original posit, which is faulty and incongruous with facts presented to the contrary.

I suggest you refrain from character judgements.

[davem]

That being said, the physical descriptions of Mordor are very clearly based on "no man's land" in WW1 which Tolkien experienced firsthand. .

There's also a very interesting verse in King Harald's Saga (part of Snorre's Heimskringla) :

Waltheof's Fighters
Bitten with weapons,
There lay dead
Deep in the Marshes,
So that the war-keen
Northmen could
Cross over there
On Corpses only.

[alatar]

Well, let's take this further to see what legs it can stand on.
And what of Japan? :)

[Morthoron]

And what of Japan? :)

Or for that matter Italy? Mussolini was a tin-horn dictator and his armies never fared well (their battles in Ethiopia against Selasse were documented fiascos). Mussolini was never considered more than a demagogue and Hitler toadie, and the Italian army crumbled in Africa and Italy without much pressure and little success, so one really couldn't compare Benito with Saruman. Saruman's army was certainly effective (having won at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, for instance) and lost at Helm's Deep due to circumstances beyond their control, even though their battle strategy was sound (it was Saruman's lack of foresight that lost the day, not the army he sent out).

[Mansun]

Intelligence is all relative; in this case, relative to the replies and not to the original posit, which is faulty and incongruous with facts presented to the contrary.

I suggest you refrain from character judgements.

These comments are best suited for private messages, if at all. Please continue with the thread topic.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm with Formendacil here. It's very easy to accept that Tolkien was not writing about our world. You can see anything in The Lord of the Rings if you want to. It's just like Nietzsche and Adam Smith being 'claimed' by diametrically opposed thinkers. Tolkien's writing relates to stories and traditions far older than a 20th century dictator.

[alatar]

I'm with Formendacil here. It's very easy to accept that Tolkien was not writing about our world. You can see anything in The Lord of the Rings if you want to. It's just like Nietzsche and Adam Smith being 'claimed' by diametrically opposed thinkers. Tolkien's writing relates to stories and traditions far older than a 20th century dictator.
I think that we're talking about the Rorschach inkblot test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_inkblot_test); though the truly creative can see all kinds of Balrog wings in the blots. On the other hand, it's hard to dismiss the influence of the environment on the mind.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

These comments are best suited for private messages, if at all. Please continue with the thread topic.

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The first character judgement was posted by you, publicly (post #9, which I would delete if I were not referencing it here); therefore I now remind you publicly to follow your own advice and refrain from personal comments.

The same applies to all other members posting here. The premise of the discussion may be flawed, but there is no reason to insult the other participants. Argue your points objectively, please, or refrain from posting if you cannot do so. Any further personal remarks will be deleted and continued insults will result in the closing of the thread.

[Mansun]

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The first character judgement was posted by you, publicly (post #9, which I would delete if I were not referencing it here); therefore I now remind you publicly to follow your own advice and refrain from personal comments.

The same applies to all other members posting here. The premise of the discussion may be flawed, but there is no reason to insult the other participants. Argue your points objectively, please, or refrain from posting if you cannot do so. Any further personal remarks will be deleted and continued insults will result in the closing of the thread.

Tolkein's world was indeed beautiful and elegant . . .

[Formendacil]

Karma existed in Middle Earth, so why not here also?

I had originally intended to leave this thread alone--though I have no grudge, I really don't have anything constructive to say that will in any way further an intelligent conversation about Tolkien and World War II--but if perhaps that particular topic is exhausted, I'd like to enquire about the above quote.

Personally, I'm inclined to give karma as much of a chance on the shooting range as I would allegory, but I'm also inclined to think, Mansun, that you wouldn't post that if you didn't have something in mind.

So I must ask... is there karma in Middle-earth? Obviously, not under that name... but still...

?

[Mansun]

So I must ask... is there karma in Middle-earth? Obviously, not under that name... but still...

?

Good things happen to ''good'' people through good actions and vice versa etc. I would think Karma has a place in Middle Earth on that front, though in the real world it does not materialise that often.

[Rumil]

Hello all,

nice to see Burra striding the Downs as of old :)

Formendacil, I was thinking about Middle Earth Karma, and who should come up with a possibly relevant quote but good old Theoden

oft evil will shall evil mar

Karm-ish if not strictly Karmic!

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

[Mansun]

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Would the LOTR been the same if WWII never happened? Inspiration may have subconciously occurred within the grim context of war, and war itself was central to much of the events in the LOTR.

[alatar]

Good things happen to ''good'' people through good actions and vice versa etc. I would think Karma has a place in Middle Earth on that front, though in the real world it does not materialise that often.
Middle Earth is a different place, and you never know when the breath of Manwe or the dew of Ulmo will bring some karma your way. In real life, I would say that the idea is unproven, as we tend to see and remember some events more than others, which is why, on average, our pasts look just peachy as we selectively forget the nights when Tolkien in the net wasn't even a dream. :)

[Kitanna]

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?
Would the LOTR been the same if WWII never happened? Inspiration may have subconciously occurred within the grim context of war, and war itself was central to much of the events in the LOTR.

I find it hard to believe there wasn't some effect on his writing from the war, but at the same time whatever effect it might have had probably wasn't as big as one could expect.
As Morthoron posted: The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past', is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in my mind, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

Though WWII was a world changing event of the 1900's and its impact is still felt heavily today, WWII tends to get broken down into good vs. evil, light winning against darkness, (the evil Axis vs the vitreous Allies), and the ideas of good vs. evil are ones that go back to the first stories told word of mouth from parent to child. Tolkien's work can be compared to other world events that had just as profound effects. That doesn't mean that's where Tolkien found influence for his world. As I said before the joy of his work is the ability to allow the reader to find a connection to their own life, to other events in the world. Though it doesn't mean that's where Tolkien was coming from it doesn't make the reader wrong. Good literature is open to interpretation.

[Aaron]

I don't think that Mordor was necessarily inspired by the Nazi state. I don't really buy into the notion that Tolkien's work was inspired by Nazi Germany.
In any case, Mordor was driven by the will of Sauron alone. Whereas the Nazi's had a whole system of thought, they weren't brainless savages like the Orcs. No, the scary thing is that many Nazi's were well educated and yet still lowered themselves to such barbarism.

[burrahobbit]

It isn't that Mordor was "not necessarily" inspired by Germany, it's that it was "necessarily not" inspired by it. Explicitly, empiracally so.

[bilbo_baggins]

burrahobbit is right.

And, as per the trend of Bethberry's inquest into details in the comparison of Mordor with Nazi Germany, I have one thought: was Sauron a patriot?

I might push more than a few buttons here, but Hitler was, perhaps only at the beginning, a patriot. Perhaps insanity and power drove it from his mind in the later years (1935-45), but following the collapse of Germany after WWI, Hitler was deeply moved by the plight of his fellow Germans, and it was his patriotism, not necessarily insanity, that began his struggle to bring Germany back into the "Successful Nations" list. I concede and agree that most of his actions were misguided, cruel, foolish, insane, diabolical, etc., but his beginning motives were rather noble.

Did Sauron have such motives? I think not...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

bilbo, your comparison of patriotic motives is not applicable on both counts. The word "patriot" denotes a loyalty to the country of one's father. Sauron was a Maia - for whom/which country would he have had patriotic feelings? And Hitler was born an Austrian; any patriotic feelings he might have had for Germany were opportunistic at best.

[Lalwendë]

I think the only aspect of LotR that you could argue was influenced directly by WWII was the creation of the Fell Beasts (good call, Rumil). I believe there is something in one of the letters about this, about how Tolkien was horrified by airborne warfare - and I understand he was not wholly happy about Christopher being an RAF man, either.

Mordor is certainly run on totalitarian lines, but totalitarianism is not limited to Hitler. It existed before him, it will exist after him.

[Macalaure]

Off topic comment here, but I can't let this stand as it is.

but his beginning motives were rather noble.

Mein Kampf was written in 1924 already. His antisemitist and racist motives were laid open in it, as were his plans to go to war. His motives were never noble.

Perhaps insanity and power drove it from his mind in the later years (1935-45), but following the collapse of Germany after WWI, Hitler was deeply moved by the plight of his fellow Germans, and it was his patriotism, not necessarily insanity, that began his struggle to bring Germany back into the "Successful Nations" list.While it is true that he was deeply moved by Germany's defeat - as well as the following unfair peace treaty - it is not possible (at any time) to sever his patriotism from motives you would label insane, like the ones I mentioned above. He didn't "go insane" around 1935, but before 1935, he simply didn't have the means to realize those motives in a larger scale yet.

[bilbo_baggins]

Thank you Estelyn, for pointing out Hitler's Austrian backgrounds. However my point was that Sauron couldn't be patriotic to Mordor, since he was a Maia, whereas, Hitler at least had some vague idea of a "greater German empire" to which he belonged... but he wasn't German, it's true. :)

Mein Kampf was written in 1924 already. His antisemitist and racist motives were laid open in it, as were his plans to go to war. His motives were never noble.


Dang it, there went my mouth again. I concede on the point that his racist ideas and anti-semitism went back as far as his patriotism, and that the two are inseparable.

But on the other hand, don't many people have radical (and ignorant) ideas about how to improve their country? As you have easily proven, his patriotism cannot be separated from his desire to kill Jews, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a patriot.

And Sauron as a patriot for Mordor is inconceivable - this difference between Sauron and Hitler was really the only point I wanted to make. My tangents were groundless... :(

[rorschach]

Hi Folks

This is probably old hat to all old-time Tolkein fans, but I've never understood all the WWII allegory stuff. Tolkein was a professor of medieval languages, steeped in the history of Dark Age England. From that, can we identify a corresponding point in time in English history where LOTR 'takes place'?

I think that the whole ethos and historical sensibility of the book does point to one period in particular - the lowest point of Saxon fortunes during the Viking invasions in the late 9th century, specifically after the battle of Chippenham (878) where Alfred of Wessex was defeated and his army scattered.

Take or leave these 'parallels'

The Misty Mountains: North-South mountain chain = the Pennines
The White Mountains: East-West mountain chain to the south = The Wessex Downs (OK they've grown a bit in Tolkein's imagination)

The Elves: previous great civilisation now effectively banished to the far western fringes = The Roman-British (Celtic) civilisation defeated by the Anglo-Saxons and confined to Wales etc.
Rivendell/Lothlorien: Enclaves of Elvish civilisation surviving in or near the Misty Mountains. = Celtic Kingdom of Elmet in the West Riding of Yorkshire (OK gone by the time of Alfred but artistic licence here)

The Humans: formerly great kingdoms of men. Northern Kingdom (Arnor) previously pre-eminent, now destroyed = Kingdom of Northumbria, destroyed by the Danes
Southern Kingdom (Gondor) remaining in the south and west of Middle Earth, army fights mainly on foot = Wessex and the traditional Saxon shieldwall
Minas Tirith: Capital of Gondor at eastern end of White Mountains close to threat from Mordor = Winchester, capital of Wessex
Aragorn: King of Gondor but in exile and waiting to reassume power when the forces of Mordor are defeated = King Alfred himself, hiding in the Somerset levels until he can rally forces for the Battle of Ashdown.
The Rohirrim: The 'new humans', rather barbarian, who fight on horseback = The Normans with their mounted knights - an anachronism here but remember these parallels are not meant to be exact.

The humans (Gondor) are the 'good, white' civilisation in the sense of being Christian.

The Baddies: Dark destructive power based in the south and east, determined to destroy the power of Gondor and apparently invincible. = the Danish Vikings who've already destroyed Northumbria and look set to complete the job against Wessex. Utterly evil (i.e. pagan, non-Christian). Centre of power is Mordor =London (note the similarity of the words). Nothing changes, I'm from Yorkshire and I still think of London as the root of all evil. Colour is black = Vikings are commonly associated with this colour, from the black raven standard to the normal dress of Guthrum, the Viking commander at Chippenham.

Of course these are not all exact parallels, but the point is that this was the history that Tolkein knew and loved deeply, and his imagination was surely fired by the desperation and heroism of Alfred's Wessex, even if his greatest sympathy always remained with the Celts (the Elves).
All the modern charges of Racism against Tolkein rather miss the point if we regard his epic as being rooted firmly in the past, The fear and horror that the Vikings inspired in Saxon England is very well caught in LOTR, as is the sense of the end of all things and the potential death of christian civilisation. Saxons had very good reason to be racist against the Vikings, although after Alfred's victory the two races integrated rather well eventually, before the Normans finally turned up and wiped the floor with the true flower of English civilisation. It was a historical accident that WWII occured during the writing of LOTR, and I've always assumed that Tolkein would have written a very similar story even if he'd been born in the Victorian era, say. He always was a man out of tune with his times.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd be fascinated to know what others feel about this.

[burrahobbit]

Those are much better comparisons. Places and people etc. started out much more "based on" things in Tolkien's earlier drafts/works, and I think you have at least a lot of that pretty spot on, so far as it goes.

[Gwathagor]

I think that the whole ethos and historical sensibility of the book does point to one period in particular - the lowest point of Saxon fortunes during the Viking invasions in the late 9th century, specifically after the battle of Chippenham (878) where Alfred of Wessex was defeated and his army scattered.


Tolkien WAS a huge Saxon fan, so I find this theory plausible. I doubt there was any direct connection in his imagination, but he was certainly drawing on what he was most familiar with - i.e. Anglo-Saxon history, among other things.

[rorschach]

Thank you both for replying, and I fully agree with 'so far as it goes' Burrahobbit. A work as wide-ranging and complicated as LOTR badly needed a coherent geo-political framework, and it's not surprising that, consciously or unconsciously, JRRT settled on one that so closely matches a historical situation from a period he happened to be a world authority on - so far, so obvious.

A good reason to set out these historical parallels is a continuing sadness (which JRRT surely shared) about how little people know of this history. If you don't know the events of Alfred the Great's reign, please, please do read up on them. This was a key turning point in not just English but world history, and it's also a great STORY. From the despair of defeat to the eventual recovery and victory is an emotional rollercoaster on a par with LOTR itself, and these things actually happened...

A related issue of great interest is the creative process which led to LOTR. Say you decided to write an epic fantasy saga. You want the prevailing mood to be one of a titanic clash of civilisations, with one side apparently doomed to inevitable destruction, and the annihilation of not just the people but their whole history and culture. How would you research the mindset of the outnumbered and threatened side?

From a European perspective you might start with writers from the end of the Western Roman Empire facing barbarian invasion, or perhaps the fall of Byzantium to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 (which incidently has strong parallels to the mood inside Minas Tirith during the siege). More recently, the impact of european colonial expansion on native cultures was just as catastrophic, but apart from Native American accounts there are few written sources (US readers might be somewhat surprised, not to say offended, to hear the rush to the Pacific Coast so described, but in world-historical terms that's exactly what it was). Finally, and in a category all of it's own (and not available to JRRT) is Holocaust Literature.

JRRT probably didn't do any overt research in this way, but then he didn't have to. Want to know what the end of the World feels like? Try reading the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles for the 860's and 870's. A lifetime of reading these accounts both professionally and for his own pleasure meant that they could hardly fail to permeate into JRRT's world view. This is the main reason for my view that LOTR could have been written at almost any time after the Victorian Era (when concerns about the effects of industrialisation and the mechanisation of the coutryside were already widely expressed) and the advent of WWII is irrelevant. At any time doesn't mean by anyone however - the perculiar nature of JRRT's genius is what keeps us all reading his astonishing books.

Finally, and in a Loki-like spirit of mischief, I can't resist pointing out the ultimate parallel between Alfredian history and LOTR.

The Ring: something taken into the heart of the enemy's camp, which effectively neutralises the threat from that enemy.
= Christianity itself. The conversion of the Danish commanders after Ashdown as a condition of the Peace Treaty removes the immediate threat to Wessex, allowing time for consolidation and recovery, whilst simultaneously undermining morale and coherence among the Danes.

No wonder Frodo is seen by so many commentators as a Christ-like figure. It's not the Ring he's taking into Mordor, but the Gospel itself, which he delivers to spectacular effect in his own Sermon on the Mount (Doom). :eek:

[Lalwendë]

Tolkien WAS a huge Saxon fan, so I find this theory plausible. I doubt there was any direct connection in his imagination, but he was certainly drawing on what he was most familiar with - i.e. Anglo-Saxon history, among other things.

Gwath, you've given me a chuckle there. I've got this image now of Tolkien donning a leather biker jacket and headbanging to Wheels Of Steel by Barnsley's finest metal band.

:cool:

The Baddies: Dark destructive power based in the south and east, determined to destroy the power of Gondor and apparently invincible. = the Danish Vikings who've already destroyed Northumbria and look set to complete the job against Wessex. Utterly evil (i.e. pagan, non-Christian). Centre of power is Mordor =London (note the similarity of the words). Nothing changes, I'm from Yorkshire and I still think of London as the root of all evil. Colour is black = Vikings are commonly associated with this colour, from the black raven standard to the normal dress of Guthrum, the Viking commander at Chippenham.

Well the Vikings were not 'evil' for one, they were a highly advanced culture, and Tolkien was very fond of them, as shown by his love of the Icelandic sagas and all the rest of the mythology and history of that people. I think rather his ire would be against the French to be honest, and if any parallel could be drawn I think he'd pinpoint the destruction of English culture at 1066.

Plus Tolkien's work is packed full of Scandinavian imagery.

I agree about London though. Nice one. :p

[rorschach]

Actually I think the Mordor/London analogy holds up well in any case. JRRT was unashamedly provincial in outlook, and there's evidence for his distrust of the centralising tendencies of Whitehall bureaucracy, with all that that implied for loss of cultural identity in other regions of England. This fear of being taken over, of being 'swamped' may strike a chord with, for example, the average American or French view of Washington or Paris respectively - part of the reason for LOTR's continuing popularity perhaps?

Were the Danes 'evil'? I don't think so either (and nor did JRRT as you say), but nor were they the cuddly bunnies of modern revisionism. They undoubtedly had a nice line in 'shock and awe' tactics, but then as the old proverb says 'You can't make an omelette without killing several million Russians' :cool:.. Their contemporary Christian opponents certainly depicted them as evil - 'The Scourge of God' no less - but then they would, wouldn't they?

It doesn't make any difference to my identification of the historical situation in Alfred's time with the basic geopolitical structure of LOTR. There is no allegory here. LOTR is a fantasy: Gondor is NOT Wessex, Aragorn's story is NOT the same as Alfred the Great's, and as has been forcefully pointed out on other threads Orcs are NOT Vikings.

It seems absurd to accuse JRRT of a lack of imagination, but it's rather unfortunate that he ended up with this particular geography for Middle Earth. He could have placed his 'evil force of destruction' at any point of the compass he chose, but by putting it in the east and south he appears to put LOTR firmly into the whole history of threats to Western European civilisation from that quarter - from the Goths and Huns, Arabs, Mongols, Turks et al right down to Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. This has been a gift to allegory-hunters ever since the book was written.

Note that the Silmarillion never seems to get plagued by these kinds of historical analogies, for the good reason that the forces of evil are stuck up in the far north. A Chinese or Indian reader might feel the cultural resonance of a northern invasion (after the Mongol and Mughal invasions respectively), but it's not easy to come up with a european parallel. The clearest ones I can think of - a northern force bringing physical destruction and cultural annihilation to an artistically advanced, culturally, racially and politically diverse south - would be the Albigensian Crusade against southern France in the mid13th century, or it's Iberian contemporary the Reconquista of Christian Spain against the Moors. JRRT would have hated both these comparisons, of course, since they cast Catholic Christianity in the role of Morgoth. ;)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

As I so often do, I think that some passages from the letters might be helpful here, especially since they support several of the points made above.

The Lord of the Rings was actually begun, as a separate thing, about 1937, and had reached the inn at Bree, before the shadow of the second war. Personally I do not think that either war (and of course not the atomic bomb) had any influence upon either the plot or the manner of its unfolding. Perhaps in landscape. The Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme. They owe more to William Morris in his Huns and Romans, as in 'The House of the Wolfings' or 'The Roots of the Mountains'.

Letters no. 226 (31 December 1960)

My problem with allegory, even such a diverting allegory as the Wessex connection, is that it trammels L.R., obscuring its meaning behind false real-world analogies. Allegory has been the great literary disease of the last century, probably because it allows the reader to feel that he has been allowed into a cosy little secret. The vulgar and untutored might see, for example, a simple beast fable about animals running a farm, but of course the educated and superior critic knows that Orwell is talking about the Russian revolution. It allows the reader who possesses a modicum of sense to feel that he has cracked a code and revealed secrets hidden to lesser minds.

This, of course, has presented a lot of problems to authors of fantasy. It's no coincidence that E.R. Eddison's foreword to The Worm Ouroboros begins "It is neither allegory nor fable but a Story to be read for its own sake," while Tolkien's preface to the 1966 second edition of L.R. contains a long rebuttal of its status as an allegory on recent events that already accounts for every fifth word ever posted in this forum. There is, however, a good reason for the determination of their denials: to find allegory in either author's work is to misunderstand fundamentally the nature of the work, and - in Tolkien's case at least - his entire outlook on life, fiction and his country's enemies.

Tolkien made a number of comments on the Second World War in his letters, many of them directly relating to Germany, and his attitude is a telling one. Perhaps, though, it is best to begin with his famous letter to the German publishing house Rütten and Loening Verlag, of 1938.

My great, great grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject - which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

[i]Letters no. 30, 25th July 1938

Tolkien, then, was well-disposed towards Germany as a country, and like any reasonably intelligent person he was able to distinguish between a country and the party that happens to be leading it. It is difficult to imagine someone actually liking Mordor as a place or an idea, at least the parts of it through which Frodo and Sam pass in L.R., because Mordor is almost a physical manifestation of Sauron's will to corrupt and destroy: a land utterly blasted and ruined. On the other hand, some parts of 1940s Germany were really quite nice and remain so.

After five years of destructive warfare, Tolkien's opinion remained basically unchanged. While deploring the excesses and methods of the axis powers, he continued to detest the individuals responsible for them, not the entire nation.

Urukhai is only a figure of speech. There are no genuine Uruks, that is folk made bad by the intention of their maker; and not many who are so corrupted as to be irredeemable (though I fear it must be admitted that there are human creatures that seem irredeemable short of a special miracle, and that there are probably abnormally many of such creatures in Deutschland and Nippon - but certainly these unhappy countries have no monopoly: I have met them, or thought so, in England's green and pleasant land).

Letters no. 78 (12 August 1944)

Tolkien's distaste for jingoism is again apparent in a letter of 1944.

We knew Hitler was a vulgar and ignorant little cad, in addition to any other defects (or the source of them); but there seem to be many v. and i. l. cads who don't speak German, and who given the same chance would show most of the other Hitlerian characteristics. There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory: because, if you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don't know the difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done. Of course there is still a difference here. The article was answered and the answer printed. The Vulgar and Ignorant Cad is not yet a boss with power; but he is a very great deal closer to becoming one in this green and pleasant isle than he was.

Letters no. 81 (23-25th September 1944)

As the fall of Berlin neared, with Russian tanks sixty miles from the city, Tolkien was again disgusted with the bloodthirsty popular opinion in his own country.

Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring West, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination left in this dark diabolic hour. By which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly (not solely) created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilisation in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted. The destruction of Germany, be it 100 times merited, is one of the most appalling world-catastrophes.

Letters no. 96 (30th Jan. 1945)

This is scarcely the sort of language that one would expect Tolkien to use about the fall of Mordor, particularly since he doesn't. This is because although in his books the antagonist is virtually a personification of evil, Tolkien lived in the real world, and people are not like that. Hitler, for example, as well as inspiring and ordering the deaths of millions, plunging the world into a brutally destructive war and utterly wrecking Germany, was a dog-loving, vegetarian teetotaller and decorated war hero, who might have led quite an unremarkable life had he not entered politics. Tolkien appears to have regarded him with contempt; not the awe that Sauron inspires.

Basically, then, not only was Tolkien too subtle a writer to hammer home points about contemporary politics in the form of a rather clumsy allegory, but the very points which he is often supposed to have been making do not support his own expressed opinions. This is why he devoted so many words to refuting the World War II allegory: because it presented to the world an utterly false view of his views and (more importantly in his eyes) the character of his work.

Now for some fun.

I think the only aspect of LotR that you could argue was influenced directly by WWII was the creation of the Fell Beasts (good call, Rumil). I believe there is something in one of the letters about this, about how Tolkien was horrified by airborne warfare - and I understand he was not wholly happy about Christopher being an RAF man, either.

I found that one too.

It would not be easy for me to express to you my loathing for the Third Service - which can be nonetheless, and is for me, combined with admiration, gratitude and above all pity for the young men caught in it. But it is the aeroplane of war that is the real villain. And nothing can really amend my grief that you, my best beloved, have any connexion with it. My sentiments are more or less those that Frodo would have had if he discovered some Hobbits learning to ride Nazgûl-birds, 'for the liberation of the Shire'. Though in this case, as I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust, I am afraid I am not even supported by a glimmer of patriotism in this remaining war. [The war in the Far East, which continued until August 1945]

Letters no. 100 (29th May 1945)

I was also interested in rorschach's points about the geographical location of Mordor. There is actually a parallel that is both medieval and Christian, and which supports Tolkien's assertion that the south-eastern siting of the Black Land was a geographical necessity. As John F. Vickrey points out in 'The Vision of Eve in Genesis B' (Speculum 44 (1969)), in the Anglo-Saxon poem Christ III, the appearance of Christ on judgement day is to be from the south-east (ll. 899-904), and the poem follows numerous literary parallels that associate God with the south-east and the devil with the north-west (this could be the reason for Tolkien's placement of Morgoth's great fastnesses in northern regions). In Lactantius's Divinae Institutiones, II, 9, God is also associated with the east and south, in this case at the creation. Vickrey follows Thomas Hill in tracing these associations to St. Jerome's commentary on Zacharias xiv 4-5.

Tolkien would have been familiar at the very least with the advent of Christ in Christ III and may have read any number of works by St. Jerome, so it may be that he was aware of this, which supports his contention that if one sets one's action in the north-west of the known world (the region occupied by Anglo-Saxon England), one cannot avoid having one's main antagonists attack from south and east. If I were given to the seeking of allegory, I might suggest that it was, in fact, deliberate, and that Tolkien was upset with God during the entire writing of L.R., but of course that would be ridiculous.

[Nogrod]

Hi Folks
This is probably old hat to all old-time Tolkein fans, but I've never understood all the WWII allegory stuff. Tolkein was a professor of medieval languages, steeped in the history of Dark Age England. From that, can we identify a corresponding point in time in English history where LOTR 'takes place'?I can't speak of the others but I'm surely an old time Tolkien fan and have never bothered to try and find out the parallels into the medieval history of the British isles. Well, I have neither been a fan enough to study anything on Tolkien - like to read different commentaries or other speculation on his works - or his letters even!

But I must admit this viewpoint is at the same time plausible, believable and understandable - and it would explain why the prof. was so annoyed by the questions concerning the WW2.

But we should also remember that even if the things from the past of England you suggest rorschach might have been the initial historical sceneries that inspired Tolkien we're still needing to answer at least two questions:

How did his experiences of both World Wars come into the picture? I mean even if one starts with a storyline or a basic concept unrelated to the present day occurences those might (and would?) influence the initial idea and the creative process going on after those events. And granting that, one should ask what is the importance of those newer experiences and their relation to the possible original idea?

Secondly: Is there a deeper annoyance with the paralles with the history / legend of the real world occurences at stake here? As no scholar on the topic it still seems to me that Tolkien was really annoyed by such suggestions. So what is the worth of such discoveries for interpreting his work? Should we follow him in the stance that we should search for no parallels or allegories of actual history and that the ME and the LotR are just mythology (for England), or should we read it through historical lenses - and what would we gain or lose by doing that?

(I'm admitting that as a lay history-freak I immediately felt a need to look back on some history-books to check these suggestions out - and I probably will do it soon enough as I have time for it - but that's a freak like me...)

EDIT: X'd with the letters of the Squatter...

[Nogrod]

I was also interested in rorschach's points about the geographical location of Mordor. There is actually a parallel that is both medieval and Christian, and which supports Tolkien's assertion that the south-eastern siting of the Black Land was a geographical necessity.Looking at the European civilisations it's pretty easy to see that the threats came (come!!!) from east and south whether they were (are) persians, carthagenians, huns, slavs, ottomans, arabs...

It's the basic story of the West. And wasn't Tolkien writing a mythology eg. the "basic story"? :)

[Morthoron]

I don't think Tolkien's story is at all analogous with specific eras of real history. For every comparative point to real events and his chronology, there are wholly divergent themes occurring simultaneously with those that many commentators claim as allegorical.

It is better to say that the compendium is a masterful amalgam of Tolkien's studies and interest, a synthesis linguistic in intent, that covers a wide spectrum of biblical and mythological allusions (Antedeluvian, Atalantan, Miltonian, Finnish, Icelandic, Graeco-Roman, Anglo-Saxon, etc.), and is both anachronistic and archaic simultaneously. How else can one explain the advent of gunpowder in the West occurring simultaneously with an almost total reliance on chain mail (with only a single mention of a crossbow or arbelist-like weapon), and the mentions of clocks, newspapers, new world imports and trains in a 16th or 17th century squirearchy in the Shire alongside a pre-feudal kingship such as in Rohan?

Tolkien's vast conglomeration defies allegorical interpretation unless one wishes to parse out the prose into tiny bits. Reading Tolkien's letters, it is clear that even he was often mystified by his own work, saying one thing imperatively early on, then drastically changing his view decades later. He even plops in a character like Tom Bombadil, who any rational reader can plainly see does not fit neatly into any Middle-earth categorization whatsoever, but is placed there because Tolkien liked the character and felt his presence was important (cosmological questions be damned).

One can no more equate Alfredian Wessex with the story than one can try to compare the Ring with the atomic bomb, neither can one present Mordor as Nazi Germany in a cogent manner any more than you can imply that Gondor, or its precedent Numenor, was built on the foundations of Constantinople. People have tried, but in the end it never adds up to a completely consistent theory. There are resemblances, there are facsimiles, there are hints, but there are never one-to-one comparative ratios. That is the mark of true genius, and obviously the reason we will be arguing this same topic into the ground well after the dead horse has been beaten into bits so tiny that we will be sparring over equine molecules.

[Gwathagor]

Looking at the European civilisations it's pretty easy to see that the threats came (come!!!) from east and south whether they were (are) persians, carthagenians, huns, slavs, ottomans, arabs...

It's the basic story of the West. And wasn't Tolkien writing a mythology eg. the "basic story"? :)

Some of the most significant, defining threats to the western world have come from the north, as seen by the invaded states. The Romans had the Goths, Vandals, and Huns, Charlemagne had his nemeses the Saxons, and everybody suffered under the ubiquitous Vikings.

I agree about those other invasions though, the Muslims in particular.

[davem]

Actually, Tolkien's inspiration for LotR was the Wars of the Roses - Aragorn was clearly modelled on Richard III - even down to the broken sword:

http://www.sal.org.uk/paintings/235456.jpg/variant/medium.

Elrond is therefore Warwick, the Kingmaker, whose daughter Aragorn goes on to wed....

[alatar]

The War of the Ring does not emulate WWII in the least, per the author. If anything, the battle and horror in the story reflect Tolkien's recollections of WWI
Much agreed.

Towards the end of Summer, I came across a brown patch on one of the backyard stepping stones. Upon closer examination, I saw that it was composed of ants - some alive, but most of them dead. What struck me was the shear number of ants, as they collectively made an area about the size of a circle with a radius of about 6 inches.

As I live in a temperate zone, these are not huge Amazonian army ants that are the size of small dogs. No, these were the typical brown-colored carpenter ants (I surmised, as I don't even pretend to be an entomologist) native to the region.

The swarm was again sizable, but again they were mostly dead. I couldn't see any signs of their demise - no chemical residue, no child-sized foot prints, no magnifying glass burns. Just dead ants.

Out came the hose. Whatever it was with the ants, they - the living and the dead - were washed away, and now that we're into Fall, are long forgotten.

***

At least sixteen million people died as a result of WWI, the war that J.R.R. Tolkien experienced. Here's how some of his contemporaries saw that time (all quotes and poems taken from Martin Gilbert's The First World War):

In the splendor of conquest, or at rest, troops could try to forget realities of the battlefield, but for those who were at the Front, or even near the front as it moved swiftly forward, a new, harsh world was beginning to impinge upon the accepted conventions of armies at war. For Captain Spears, who had been with the French Fifth Army for the previous two weeks, that moment came on August 20, as he sat on a hill with a French officer overlooking the fields, towns and villages of the Sambre valley south of Charleroi. 'A dog was barking at some sheep. A girl was singing as she walked down the lane behind us. From a little farm away on the right came the voices and laughter of some soldiers cooking their evening meal. Darkness grew in the far distance as the light began to fail. Then, without a moment's warning, with a suddenness that made us start and strain our eyes to see what our minds could not realise, we saw the whole horizon burst into flame.'

'A chill of horror came over us. War seemed suddenly to have assumed a merciless, ruthless aspect that we had not realized till then. Hitherto it had been war as we had conceived it, hard blows, straight dealing, but now for the first time we felt as if some horrible Thing, utterly merciless, was advancing to grip us.'


This is the Fourth of June Think not that I never dream
The noise of that infernal noon, The stretchers' endless stream,
The tales of triumph won, The night that found them lies,
The wounded wailing in the sun, The dead, the dust, the flies.
The flies! oh God, the flies That soiled the sacred dead,
To see them swarm from dead men's eyes And share the soldiers' bread!
Nor think I now forgot The filth and stench of war,
The corpses on the parapet, The maggots on the floor.
Isaac Rosenberg (http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/dead-man-s-dump/)
The wheels lurched over the sprawled dead
But pained them not, thought their bones crunched,
Their shut mouths made no moan,
They lie there huddled, friend and foeman,
Man born of man, and born of woman,
And shells go crying over them
From night to night and now.

Earth has waited for them
All the time of their growth
Fretting for their decay:
Now she has them at last!


Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eye writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick with sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

As above, it wasn't a country or person that Tolkien was equating with Mordor; it was WAR! It was this ugliness, this waste of lives, the destruction of the world, the pitiful sacrifices on Mars' altar, the suffering of those just trying to find a quiet place (just think for a moment of all of the children!) - that I think was what Tolkien saw as the 'evil,' not some specific European country.

Reading the book with the stories and poems like those above, I couldn't help but be touched by the huge mess the whole affair was...and yet, for what? What did it accomplish again? Ask someone on the street to see if they even know about what had taken place.

All of it washed away by some big hose? :(

[Mithalwen]

I saw a documentary about the Coventry blitz a couple of weeks ago and although I grew up on stories about it (my father and both sets of grandparents lived through it) seeing news footage of it for the first time renewed the impact and made me wonder if the horror of the Blitz had influenced (inspired seems the wrong word) the liquid fire of Isengard and the assault of fire on Minas Tirith:

"A power and mind of malice guided it . As soon as the great catapults were set ...they began to throw missiles marvellously high, so that they passed right above the battlements and fell thudding within the first circle of the City; and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down".

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Considering that the average blond blue-eyed Rider of Rohan appeared to be modelled on equestrian Aryans and the men of Gondor kept referring to "lesser men", perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to accuse Sauron of Nazi sympathies.

[Bêthberry]

Out came the hose. Whatever it was with the ants, they - the living and the dead - were washed away, and now that we're into Fall, are long forgotten.

Reminds me of the passage in Appendix A on Arwen's fate at Cerin Amroth:


There at last when the mallorn leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are uttterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.

Here ends this tale, as it has come to us from the South; and with the passing of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old.

Reading the book with the stories and poems like those above, I couldn't help but be touched by the huge mess the whole affair was...and yet, for what? What did it accomplish again? Ask someone on the street to see if they even know about what had taken place.

All of it washed away by some big hose? :(

And this reminds me of Tolkien's contrast of--not modern war poetry but-- Beowulf with an imaginary (for the sake of discussion) theme from the life and death of St. Oswald.


It is just because the main foes in Beowulf are inhuman that the story is larger and more significant than this imaginary poem of a great king's fall. It glimpses the cosmic and moves with the thought of all men concerning the fate of human life and efforts; it stands amid but above the petty wars of princes, and surpasses the dates and limits of historical periods, however important. At the beginning, and during its process, and most of all at the end, we look down as if from a visionary height upon the house of man in the valley of the world. A light starts -- lixte se leoma ofer landa fela -- and there is a sound of music; but the outer darkness and its hostile offspring lie ever in wait for the torches to fail and the voice to cease. Grendel is maddened by the sound of harps.

It is quite possible that anyone who feels this with Tolkien would understand not to make comparisons with the Nazi regime. This is not to gainsay Mithalwen's point about the Blitz nor alatar's about War.

[Elessar]

the answer for me is no......why did he use a german name "frodo" to be the ring bearer....for in the first place their in war with germany....and why did sauron was defeated earlier???

[Inziladun]

the answer for me is no......why did he use a german name "frodo" to be the ring bearer....for in the first place their in war with germany....and why did sauron was defeated earlier???

It's my understanding Frodo was simply a modernised version of his 'real' Shire name, as Meriadoc was the modern rendering of Kalimac. I wasn't aware there was a connexion there with German. I don't understand what you mean with reference to Sauron.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Why did he use a German name "Frodo"?
I live in Germany, and I have never seen the name "Frodo" used other than in the book LotR. "Bodo", a first name that does exist here, is the closest thing that occurs to me.

[Bêthberry]

Why did he use a German name "Frodo"?

I live in Germany, and I have never seen the name "Frodo" used other than in the book LotR. "Bodo", a first name that does exist here, is the closest thing that occurs to me.

Further to Estelyn's point, "Frodo" and "Bilbo" are very similar to "Mungo", the common name of the saint who founded Glasgow.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Out came the hose. Whatever it was with the ants, they - the living and the dead - were washed away, and now that we're into Fall, are long forgotten.

This, and Bethberry's quote from the Appendices about Arwen's passing, remind me of a poem by Carl Sandburg:

Pile the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo.
Shovel them under and let me work—
I am the grass; I cover all.

And pile them high at Gettysburg
And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun.
Shovel them under and let me work.
Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor:
What place is this?
Where are we now?

I am the grass.
Let me work.

The atrocities of war -- and the tendency of people to forget them over time -- is nothing new. I never felt that Tolkien was thinking of any one specific war in his depictions of it -- although most certainly, his experiences in WWI were a huge influence on some aspects of it -- but rather, the horror that war has been from the first. I think that it is often a mistake to believe than any authorial voice reflects a single influence or opinion (unless of course the author has said it does), and like any person, Tolkien's views of war would have been formed by the many things -- his personal experiences, his studies, his religious beliefs, etc. -- that formed him. The Nazis are probably in there somewhere, but by influence, not intent, I believe.

[alatar]

The Nazis are probably in there somewhere, but by influence, not intent, I believe.
The waste and destruction that took place during WWI was, to me, what Tolkien thought of as 'evil,' not a particular group. Like when he speaks through Sam who sees the Southroners marching, knowing that the one particular soldier wasn't evil, seemingly, but just caught up on the wrong side and maybe even forced to fight.

We see something 'evil' and compare it to something we know, as maybe Tolkien did. Anyway...

Both sides in the real war not only had to contend with 'the enemy,' but those enemies we all face - deprivation, starvation, disaster, atrocity, etc. Think of those that were lost, not via a bullet, but by the mud that drowned them, or the cold that froze them, or the virus, bacterium or amoeba that infected them. And then there were those clever inventions, such as gas, that not only killed, but tortured as it slowly did so.

There are monsters about, but where's Grendel in all of that?

[Bêthberry]

There are monsters about, but where's Grendel in all of that?

Are you mourning the absence of Grendel?

[alatar]

Are you mourning the absence of Grendel?Thought that she and her brother Hansel escapes the Witch's belly?

[Bêthberry]

Thought that she and her brother Hansel escapes the Witch's belly?

I think they might have been hosed? ;)

[Sarumian]

I agree with the view that Tolkien didn't base his epos on any particular events from the World Wars. Neither could he ignore the reality of his own age. What he created, as I can see it, was a model showing how power works. And as soon as the model was correct we can find something alike in reality.

Well, if we are looking for resemblance, it often depends on our background. While reading about the seige of Minas Tirith I couldn't stop thinking about the Battle of Moscow in October-Desember 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow

By early December, the lead German Panzer Groups stood less than 30 kilometers (19 mi) from the Kremlin, and Wehrmacht officers were able to see some of Moscow's buildings with binoculars; but the Axis forces were unable to make further advances. On December 5, 1941, fresh Soviet Siberian troops, prepared for winter warfare, attacked the German forces in front of Moscow; by January 1942, the Soviets had driven the Wehrmacht back 100 to 250 km (60 to 150 mi), ending the immediate threat to Moscow and marking the closest that Axis forces ever got to capturing the Soviet capital.

The Battle of Moscow was one of the most important battles of World War II, primarily because the Soviets were able to successfully prevent the most serious attempt to capture their capital. The battle was also one of the largest during the war, with more than a million total casualties. It marked a turning point as it was the first time since the Wehrmacht began its conquests in 1939 that it had been forced into a major retreat.

But there was no way Tolkien was going to depict this or any other event of WWII. Peculliary, in Sauron's cinicism and sarcasm I see more similarity to Stalin then to Hitler.

So I really don't think that the Third Reich was a prototype for Mordor, whatever NAZ-gul can make us think. They just shared some features of well-established tyranny.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

steeped in the history of Dark Age England

I take exception to the phrase, 'history' and "Dark Ages' being a contradiction in terms. The Dark Ages are "dark" precisely because there are no surviving histories of them.


If you mean the Middle Ages, please don't call them the Dark Ages. The span of the Dark Ages varies from author to author and place to place, but the usual convention runs from the sack of Rome and the Rescript of Honorius in 410 until the coronation of Charlemagne in 800.

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps it's time to note an interesting comment about Tolkien's method from one of his major critics, Tom Shippey. The comment is, I think, important, for it speaks to Tolkien's motivation not in his personal history or experience but in the subject so near to his heart, language.


It is not too much to say that this language and this people [Gothic and the Goths] haunted Tolkien all his life. As is noted by Christopher Tolkien (UT, p. 311), the names of the leaders of the Rohirrim before the dynasty of Eorl are not Old English, like everything else in the Riders' culture, but Gothic, e.g. Vidugavia, Vidumavi, Marhwini, etc. (see LOTR, PP. 1021-22). They function there to suggest language behind language and age behind age, a phenomenon philologists so often detected. On a larger scale, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields closely follows the account in Jordane's Gothic History, of the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains, in which also the civilisation of the West was preserved from the 'Easterlings', and in which the Gothic king Theodorid was trampled by his own victorious cavalry with much the same mixture of grief and glory as Tolkien's Theodon. (p. 15-16)

Shippey then provides a quotation from one of Tolkien's letters about this interest in words. The letter is written to Christopher Tolkien.


All the same, I suddenly realised that I am a pure philologist. I like history, and am moved by it, but its finest moments for me are those in which it throws light on words and names! Several people (and I agree) spoke to me of the art with which you made the beady-eyed Attila on his couch almost vividly present. Yet oddly, I find the thing that thrills my nerves is the one you mentioned casually: atta, attila. Without those syllables the whole great drama both of history and legend loses savour for me.

The point of atta, attila is that Attila's name comes from Gothic, not from the Hun's language and so one has to ponder how this ferocious barbarian came by the name "little father" in the language of a different tribe. There's a rewriting of history there, as philologists were wont to do.

So Shippey suggests:


. . . the word tells the story. Tolkien went on in his letter to say that in his mind that was exactly how The Lord of the Rings grew and worked. He had not constructed a design. Instead he had tried 'to create a situation in which a common greeting would be elen sila lumenn omentielmo. Literary critics might not believe him, but philologists (if any were left) ought to know better. (p. 16).

So there's a battle similarity from a very different age.

[Sarumian]

Thanks for taking this into the thread and making clear what sort of inspirations led Tolkien through his "quest".

However there is one other point I'd like to mention in connection with World War II. The great tyrants of the 20th c. were some sort of social sorcerers who bewitched nations and ruled with the combined use of lust, excitement and terror. This was how Evil's face looked in Tolkien's day.

All this is in correspondence with what I see as his central idea - that there is something like magic in the world; that we need to put up with this fact and be ready to face consequences.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Were the Danes 'evil'? We aren't evil. It's just that our intentions at the time got misunderstood. We wanted to make friends, but it's sometimes difficult to communicate over cultural barriers.

Barring that Sauron is nothing like Hitler. Hitlers power was in INSPIRATION of people - he took over a non-evil people - Germany had not been especially evil in WWII - and turned them evil. Sauron does that a bit - but most of his followers are turned looong ago. Hitler would more be like a King of Rohan or Gondor that turned the whole country to the side of Sauron - which would have been an interesting episode. Hitler's armies followd him willingly: Sauron has to threaten many of them.

Hitler was a terrible military planner - the German generals refereed to him as "the madman in Nürnberg - while Sauron is more like Stalin, a master tactician and strategist. Hitler also sucked at the intelligence bit of the war, while this is maybe Sauron's strongest side.

The soldiers of Mordor and Nazi Germany are very different as well. Germany's were well disciplined, bordering to the robotic. Sauron's are undisciplined, often fighting among themselves. Sauron doesnt seem to have anything like the SS, a large completely loyal elite corps. He has a large unruly bunch and then some 20 large generals to keep them in check.

Hitler didnt fight for himself as a person - but for the aryan race. Sauron fights for himself alone.

Evil comes in many forms...