Battles of the late Third Age

[Rumil]

Hail and well met friends,

I'd like to start a thread discussing the battles of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, (well I already have, so there!) to root out the obscure facts and gain the opinions and speculation of the inestimable Barrow-Downers.

First of all, a definition. In our world battles are defined as having at least 1000 participants on either side, I'll downgrade this to 100 a side for Middle Earth, so that the larger skirmishes (eg. Eomer's destruction of the Uruk-Hai) aren't omitted.

Secondly, a list of the battles I hope we will discuss. I plan to deal with these in order, but can you first please check the list and make sure its right and includes all the relevant events.

2941 - Assault on Dol Guldur
- Battle of the Five Armies
(2900s - frequent skirmishes in Ithilien)
(2950s on - Orc raids on Rohan from the Misty Mountains and over the Anduin. Dunlending raids from the West, eg. in 3002 Eomund was killed in battle with orcs in the Emyn Muil)
2980 - Aragorn (Thorongil) destroys the fleet of Umbar
2994 - Dwarves of Moria destroyed
3018 - Orcs from Dol Guldur attack Thranduil
- Black riders force passage of the Anduin at Osgiliath
3019 - 1st Battle of the Fords of Isen
- Eomer destroys the Uruk-Hai
- 2nd Battle of the Fords of Isen
- Helm's Deep
- Faramir's ambush
- Pelargir taken
- Cair Andros taken
- Orcs from Dol Guldur surprised by Ents on the Wold
- First assault on Lorien
- Orcs attack Beornings
- Battle of Linhir
- Osgiliath taken
- Causeway forts reduced
- Imrahil's sortie
- Aragorn captures the fleet at Pelargir
- The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
- Battle Under the Trees
- Second assault on Lorien
- Battle of the Carnen
- 1st Battle of Dale
- Third assault on Lorien
- Second Ithilien ambush
- Cair Andros retaken
- Elfhelm routs force in Anorien
- Battle of the Morannon
- 2nd Battle of Dale
- Final assault on Dol Guldur
- Battle of Bywater

In each case I'd like to discuss the 'facts' we have, and speculate on terrain, size and armament of forces and the course of the battle. Obviously this is easier in some cases than others due to lack of information!

[ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, a heavy task. Could be interesting though; but as I'm about to log off I'm afraid I don't have time right now. The list seems more or less complete, the Ent attack on Isengard not really being a 'battle' in the sense of the word. Anyway no discussion of it could really be possible. Also, I wouldn't include this:
'3002 - Eomund killed in battle with orcs in the Emyn Muil' as it was just another skirmish -- Eomund went into an attack on some Orcs with only a few men, and got slaughtered. Not really a battle, but you can consider it as such if you choose, I suppose.
Not all of these battles need be discussed. But some of them could concievably be interesting enough, I'll be back tomorrow if you or anyone else wants to start a specific discussion on one of them.

[FingolfintheBold]

Looks great! But I was wondering if your planning on starting seperate posts on each battle orjust keeping it all here... Doesn't really matter i guess. One thing I've always wondered is this: did the White Council field an army for the assulat on Dol Guldur, or did they themselves mount the attack? I mean certainly they had to have some sort of backup against the shear number of orcs in the network of caverns and such? Just a thought...

[Rumil]

Gwaihir, I'm sure you're right about Eomund's little accident, I'll include it with the sundry skirmishes in Rohan.

Fingolfin, what I thought of doing was starting at the beginning, posting my thoughts on the first battle, then when (immediately??) no new posts show up, move on to the next one.

OK, to start off with, we have the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur, which of course, paradoxically, may not have involved a battle at all. There have been threads on this during the last year but I can't find them at the moment as the search engine seems unco-operative.

We can be reasonably sure of a number of things: Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel and Celeborn were the leaders. The attack was launched from Lothlorien. The target was Dol Guldur, Sauron's stronghold in Southern Mirkwood. Sauron fled to Mordor, seemingly not putting up any opposition.

The big question is whether there actually was a battle, perhaps the White Council simply put forth their considerable 'magical' power to persuade Sauron to leave?

More questions remain. Who else was in the Council? Probably Radagast, since it was on his 'patch', possibly Elrond, though he doesn't seem to acknowledge this during the meeting at Rivendell on Bibo's way home, probably assorted elven nobility too.

From the strategic point of view, Gandalf was worried about Sauron's increasing power (he had scouted out Dol Guldur and found out the true identity of the 'Necromancer' years before) and the potential of him co-operating with Smaug. His chief concerns were that, with the aid of the dragon, Sauron would attack Lothlorien and Rivendell and re-occupy Angmar. Fortuitously he ran into Thorin and sent him off to Erebor. Was this a piece of rather callous realpolitik from Gandalf? Surely he couldn't have really expected 14 Dwarves and one hobbit to cause the demise of Smaug the Magnificent? Was Gandalf simply trying to distract Smaug during the attack on Sauron so that the dragon could not interfere? Be that as it may, as soon as Bilbo and co. were on the forest path, Gandalf sped south (perhaps collecting Radagast on the way).

Saruman had previously counselled against an attack on Dol Guldur. By now his studies had uncovered the Gladden Fields as the likely resting place of the Ring, so he wanted Sauron out of the way in order to conduct his own search.

Galadriel and Celeborn were presumably eager to drive away the shadow threatening their land, although fairly quiet recently, Sauron certainly wasn't an ideal neighbour.

If there was a military attack, I'd imagine it went something like this (speculation warning!). First the Wise used their power (including at least two of the elven rings) to extend Galadriel's protective 'girdle' (see Melian for 'Girdling') from Lothlorien over the river towards Dol Guldur. Sauron at this stage was thinking about relocating to Mordor, re-building Barad-Dur and taking over Middle Earth. He therefore feigns some resistance, doesn't get drawn into a standup magical slugging match (whatever that may be) and has it away on his toes to the Black Land. (Which begs the question of how he travelled; secret tunnel hundreds of miles long? turned into werewolf and ran? piloted his own Fell Beast or skull-faced horse? Hmmm...).

With Sauron on the run, presumably this is when any military attack would have occurred. Objectives would be to 'cleanse' Dol Guldur, drive off or kill Sauron's troops and free any prisoners. The force would surely have been mainly elves of Lothlorien with their deadly longbows and probably some more heavily armed elves equipped for melee (chainmail, swords, spears etc. - I know they're never mentioned but in a few thousand years it would be strange if the elves could not make or obtain whatever warlike equipment they fancied). I wonder if Saruman also brought some forces - perhaps his (less than) trusty human gate guards who may possibly have been descended from the last Gondorian garrison of Isengard. I'd imagine something like 2000 - 6000 elves (more than Thranduil, less than Rohan) with perhaps a token force of Saruman's troops.

They cross the Anduin with elven boats (perhaps a pontoon bridge?) and advance through Mirkwood. The various inhabitants (spiders etc) keep well away if they know whats good for them.

Meanwhile, at Dol Guldur, the boss has scarpered (perhaps with a Nazgul or two), leaving the poor old Uruks in the lurch (as usual). We can guess from later campaigns that Dol Guldur housed a fairly sizable force, perhaps 10,000 or more orcs. They could have tried to hold Dol Guldur, tried to escape with Sauron, or dispersed into Mirkwood. Orcish morale would have been very low, abandoned by the boss and with this nasty bright 'power' being projected from Lorien (it hurtsss ussss!!). I'd reckon the majority fled Dol Guldur, perhaps leaving only the bravest Uruk Hai (and perhaps Trolls, even Olog Hai?)defending the place and some poor snagas cowering in the darkest tunnels. Of course we don't know much about Dol Guldur except that it was originally a lone treeless hill rising out of the forest. You'd imagine that Sauron would have fortified it, built a tower, walls, gates etc. but that most of the living space was underground to suit the orcs, along with the dungeons.

I'd reckon the elves would have had a fairly easy task of entering the fortifications, with the orcs (apart from Uruk-Hai) unwilling to fight in the daylight. The main fighting would have been underground, with the orcs defending their tunnels. This would have proved far more difficult for the elves, though the leaderless orcs may well have run after any initial reverse, perhaps being terrified by the appearance of one of the 'wise'.

Then the hunt would be on, the orcs could expect no mercy from elves. After causing as much destruction as possible and freeing any prisoners, the elven bowmen are likely to have scoured the forest to hunt down any escapees. Then, with a job well done, everyone went home for tea. smilies/wink.gif

Well, that's my view, and of course its all a tissue of ifs and buts, the points we don't know are; was there a physical attack? did the elves enter Dol Guldur? was there anyone left to oppose them?

And of course, will anyone reply? smilies/smile.gif

[Noxomanus]

Sounds very interesting and plausible. I do wonder wether Radagast (if he indeed played a part in the assault) might have send birds and/or other animals to the attack to let them fight the Orcs a la "The Birds."
Were the Wizards actually allowed to attack Sauron in this way or is this a plot hole?

[Rumil]

Can't see the orcs being too terrified by herds of rampaging deer, but birds could have been useful for scouting the area, (eg Roac and Carc and the Crebain). Perhaps Radagast even found an eagle or two to assist.

Interesting point about the use of power by the Istari, which was restricted by the Valar. Maybe they got away with it by assisting Galadriel, rather than doing everything themselves. Certainly some uses of 'magic' or 'power' were allowable, eg. Gandalf's Nazgul-repelling 'bolts'. The main thing was not to unleash excessive power, so presumably Gandalf (and Saruman?) had to limit the assistance they could give.

Found those previous threads at last, they were lurking in Haudh-en-Ndegin

White Council (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000016)
More White Council (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000012)
Attack on Dol Guldur (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000005)

[ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[FingolfintheBold]

I guess I always imagined it somewhat like that, but as far as numbers of a physical attack, I'd have to say it was on the lower end of the spectrum, not more than 2,000. A force of elves that large marching to war would surley have been mentioned somewhere in the books. After all, the elves of Lorien rarley went far abroad, and i can't see Galadriel's girdle of protection reaching all the way to the fortress that Sauron's magic so long gaurded.

I think there probably was a physical battle with the boldest orcs and trolls that hadn't fled. But I also think the council would have some considerable counter-spells to cast and words of command to speak: Sauron had been practicing his black magic their for a long time.

Also, Gandalf says it was by Saruman's devices that they regained Dol Guldur. Maybe those "devices" were magic of some kind.

I cant imagine Sauron stiking around long when the Council's strokes fell: I think he was half way to Mordor by then, a dark spirit floating on the breeze.

[Numenorean]

I always imagined that Saruman's devices were more mechanical than magical, during this assault anyway. Perhaps he contributed a few siege engines, trebuchets and the like manned by his mannish guard force? Given his mind of metal and wheels and his devious Ring inspired secrecy, I don't think he would've been too keen on using his own powers infront of so many of the White Council elite, perhaps he was already thinking of them as potential future adversaries too.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Galadrial's 'power' existed in her own land only, and at any rate, it was certainly considerably less than that of Sauron, who remember was himself personally present in Dol Guldor -- or so it was believed -- at the time of the attack. A vague extending of 'magical power' from Lothlorien would not have shifted Sauron had he been there, and anyway, is an entirely implausible thing to suggest happening. No-where else has this method of aggression been employed by anyone wishing to mount an attack on an established and powerful stronghold, with, what's more, an established and powerful Maia within it. In fact it was never been used on any stronghold, not even a small one. It is an impossible thing to do. It would appear, from the evidence of Doriath, Rivendell and Lorien, that the power to spiritually defend a land in this way was possible in some circumstances and with some powers, but to launch an offensive in this way was impossible.

Gondor, I do not believe, would have taken part in the attack on Dol Guldor. I hav often wondered about this myself, but I would say with some certainty that it was the Elves of Lorien, Rivendell and perhaps Thranduil -- though he himself and an army were busy with Five Armies, he could conceivably have sent one south for the assistance of the Council -- would have been the troops that undertook the assault. That, I think, is why we don't know much about it. Quite little of the actions of Lorien are really known in much detail; it is probably taken for granted that it was them that staged the attack. Presumably they would have marched on Dol Guldor, perhaps fought an army of Orcs and destroyed it, and layed siege to Dol Guldor itself. The defenders would largely have either been slaughtered or escaped southwards (see below) -- Sauron had already departed himself. One or two Nazgul were probably left behind to direct the defense and stay to inhabit the place.

Since Dol Guldor was not actually destroyed, I think it probable that it was not taken in this battle. Surely if they had, then it would have been destroyed and its power broken, as happened in the War of the Ring? It is possible that they laid siege to it and destroyed a large army of Orcs, and then gave chase to the retreaters. Then, seeing that the place was largely abandoned, left warily, knowing that while the place was greatly diminished it was still inhabited. It would have been fearful to them. The Nazgul would have helped achieve this. They had succeeded in their goal of driving out the 'Necromancer', I suppose. They were not there to actually destroy Dol Guldor.

Alternatively, Dol Guldor may have appeared lifeless and totally deserted, so they did not judge that they needed to enter it particularly except to have a look around, perhaps, before they left. A slight sense of dread and uncanniness may have entered their minds, making them how no wish to stay, but anything tangible may have been hidden. The Orcs, and the Nazgul, hidden deep in the famous dungeons and caverns. When the army retreated, Dol Guldor would then lain low for a while before rising up again when Sauron declared his presence again in Mordor.

[Måns]

Hmm interesting reasoning... Reminds me of the dungeons of Angband which were no razed in the assault. Firstly, it is quite time taking to raze a castle, even if you are in posession of it. I think that Saruman must have used some kind of siege weapons, mangonels, rams or something like that, and sicne their desire was not too take any casualties, they would have been pretty htorough in the siege, demolishing defences and shooting positions. When they were done, tehy were all eager going home to their own, most of all Saruman who could now resume his quest for the Ring with Sauron gone. The thought that they needed to raze the entire castle never occured to them. For of what use is a castle (even an undamaged one) when you have none to occupy and defend it? The white council counted on continued dominance of the Mirkwood by the wood elves and that they would guard the place. It is even possible that they were given the job to raze it, but since it was such a powerful stronghold, it took time they did not have. One must remember, all castles as built ot last, and it seems to me that Sauron was pretty ingenious when it came to building anything that could hurt people.

IF we conrinue to look at the storming, I wonder which forces they might have used? Surely, Elrond with his Rivendell guard, some elves from Lórien (even if Haldir says: It was now long ago anyone of our people were outside the boarders. or something like that), and a few Istari, bound by their promise not to use their powers of force, one ahs to remember) could not have taken any castle, even less a castel occupied by Sauron himslef. All this strenghtens the theory of Saruman's usage of siege machines since he could not use "magic" (never understood what one means by magic anyway)and taht Sauron used Dol Guldur as a decoy and a weak forward base from which to search for the Ring. It was a lot easier to ahev weaker servants search the river than to send the Nazgul all the way from Mordor.

Another thing is the rather stange location of a stronghold like Dol Guldur, in a forest! Castles are used to control areas, and areas you want to control are usually inhabited. It did not even control teh river valley completely since the Gondorian messenger to Eorl the yong got by, even if it was a close call. since the plains were pretty tightly controlled by the eótheod, one could not build a castle there without defeating them. Thusonly the Mirkwood and the Mountains remained of you wanted to have some control on the area. For me the obvious choice is the mountains. These are the chief reasons: 1, It is very easy to find a strong defensive position with extremely good control of the river valley and the plains, bridging the Anduin would be necessary but not impossible since it was a pretty small river up there. 2: The Proximity to both building materials (which is a huge factor) and of course, to a potential ally, the mountain orcs. You would not be threatened by anything, be controlling the roads to and from the lonely mountain, to and from the Eótheod, have for exampel and unemptiable reserve of drinking water. It would have been a fortress stronger than Masada, but without a roman army to capture it. The mainly moounted enemies wouldn't have ahd a chance, and the dwarves would have cared little.

My description of the evnents would be similar but soemwhat different. I think that it would ahve been a sheerly militar operation to overthrow Sauron by force, that the forces from the south (Lórien's and Saruman's few men) would march northwards along the river on the eastern side of it but still in the valley. Swiftly, they would try and join with the norther forces (Thranduil, Elrond) who would presumably have met by the river. This they do since none fo them would like to come near Dol Guldur in anything but full force.Their route from there becomes more uncertain, I think they COULD go to Thranduil for the last preparations. They could as well go by the edge of the forest earlier, but I don't know if they would have ventured to go through it; though they had the trailers of Thranduil with them. What speaks for that Thranduil did not send many or any men at all to this siege is thathe was busy cutting himslef a slice of the action by the lonely mountain and partying in the forwest to which Vilbo testifies. This maeks me believe that the assaulting force cannot have been very large at all, very few ordinary soldiers compared to the number of chiefs. To even out the situation they must have used siege weapons, invented by Saruman as Gandalf says.

By the way, I will not try and turn this into a Dol Guldur discussion! smilies/wink.gif How about the fords of Isen, the least dramticized and over-heroic battle for the next?

Have lots more to say but little time, so for now, bye.

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[Rumil]

Saruman's 'devices', nice point! While I'm sure Saruman could and did construct siege engines such as mangonels, rams, trebuchets, ballistae etc. there would surely have been difficulties transporting these through the thick pine forests surrounding Dol Guldur. Perhaps some of the smaller engines were broken down and transported by pack animal?

I'd imagine that Saruman's devices consisted of explosive charges of the 'they have lit the fires of Orthanc beneath us' sort, and that Gandalf may well have contributed something similar. (I was going to speculate on Gandalf's rocketry experience, but found I was about to propose a Middle Earth Tomahawk cruise missile, so I won't!).

Gwaihir, I know there's no real backup for my 'girdle extending' theory. I was inspired by the passage in Lorien where the 'light' of Lothlorien appeared to be opposing the 'dark' of Dol Guldur.

I also found a couple of extra things out. One was that at the time of the War of the Ring, Dol Guldur was occupied by a force sevenfold its previous garrison. This would fit with Mans' idea that Dol Guldur was a weak decoy outpost, perhaps Sauron had been sending troops to Mordor secretly for some time beforehand? I also found the rather extraordinary claim by Galadriel that she could percieve the thoughts of Sauron, or at least all of those concerning elves. That's really quite an advantage! I wonder if Gandalf could do something similar?

I'm still not convinced that Elrond and Thranduil sent any troops. Gandalf felt the need to explain the attack to Elrond (on Bilbo's way home) and I'd imagine Thranduil's forces were too busy partying, interrogating Dwarves and setting off to Erebor to worry about Dol Guldur.

I know what you mean about the situation of Dol Guldur within a forest. It does somehow fit the 'evil guy's secret hideaway' stereotype quite well, they always seem to hang out in rather inaccesible places, extinct volcanos, islands, extinct volcanos on islands ( I'm thinking Bond villains and Dr.Evil here).

I'll move on to The Battle of the Five Armies next, but please feel free to post on whichever subject you fancy as it'll be a while before I sort my next post out!

[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Måns]

The Battle of the fords of Isen seems intriguing, as does the Five Armies... Hmm.. Therefore, I take a different one, the raids into ithilien.

I will do this in a total lack of order as always since this is written in the order it comes into my head but I hope that you will forgive me for my unstructured writings and misplaced letters.

Anyway, what we do now is that there during the last say 50 years of the third age were frequent raids into the area of Ithilien from Gondor, then newly taken by the forces of Mordor. Let us begin on looking at the purpose of these raids. They seem to have come into being as some vain and desperate attempt at showing that they were still at war with the Enemy, like the Britihs did with Dieppe in 1942. Faramir himself sais that these raids and plunderings hve lost all thrir former glory which insinutates that they could have been used as much against the enemy as for the morale of the population in Gondor. Their anture was probably at the beginning quite casual, a company of emn under a stury commander crossed the river, slew some maraudign orcs and quickly withdrew. As the years went by they established firm foothold/s in Ithilien like Henneth annun, where they could hide great many men and stores so taht they could live there for many months, probably. 'tis my guess since they ahd fresh drinking water and large sotrage rooms but I am not very knowledgeable in the art of fortification so anyone with the right details, please share them with us! These hideouts were as you know protected by their secrecy and not strength in amrs, if resupply was neeeded, I would think that it oculd be A: Brought in by boat. B: The men carried as much as they could on the way there. C: Regular caravans from Osgiliath which I think is the least likely because of the obvious danger. Anyway, tehre seems to be have been a well developed system and very well oiled indeed since it worked so well. They were well prepared for forest warfare with their green clothes and bows which makes me think that there msut have been a large support behind this from the Steward, amybe worked out by Boromir who was eager to battle. Anyway, the assaults went on as described in the books whistling arrows and then a ferocious atack to sweep the opponents away in confusion, something that must have been relatively easy since they were not used to forests, in marching order and very surprised.

In this warfare we see that the need of a strong hadned commander is great at the operational level but that the missions required skilled underofficers and soldiers able to take an initiative on their own, if for example isolated which could happen easily. I need not emntion the strength of nerve required to spring a trap in the exactly right moment with the arrow already on the bow. One move too mcuh and it might all be in vain. To look at this at a strategical level we see the leadership fo the army of Gondor facing the fact that their resources were not the same as it used to be and restricting itself to waiting and small raids. This is a conscious change and can only have come about with the planning and strong will of a great commander, probably Boromir in this case. The same we see in the fortification of the plains, the Rammas where not built to achieve a decisive battle once and fro all but too wear down an enemy against an iron hard defence, stranger things have happened.

Personally I think this is a sound strategy since the general that risks a battle is insane. Where there any Great battles in the war of the Ring that was not some kind of a siege or an assault from the beginning? The Hornburg, the fields of Pelennorand even the last battle fo the amry fo the west, they weren't even beleaguering armies drawn of to force a battle, it was a good old siege and relief. Well, why a commander that risks a battle is insane I will now explain. Wehn you sit at home and look at a battle and see those bright arrows moving across your little pretty fold out map with bird perspective, you have a month to decide what to do, with all the beneift of hindsight and a map of it all. When it happened, the commander ahd a very restricted view, three minutes on him to decide and virually very little to do. If eh decided that something needed to be done, how would he get it done? messengers were killed, sound signals drowned in the noise, that is why many commanders were in the front line, not because they wanted to play heros. What today might seem like a fatal and stupid charge into a grossly superior army (for example, Marj Ayyoun) was then sheer logic andthe best and only right thing to do. Thus, battles are disorganized messy and out of control. It oculd reverse a war entirely or decide it, or none of it. Nothing is sure about the winne rtill it's over. We have been FOOLED, ladies and gentlemen, fooled by the Historians and generals during the 19th century! They wanted war to be seen as a rational political instrument to be used if necessary to acquire a world balance which they did through fxing it on persons and simplifying it, like a game of chess. The only difference is that they are totally out of control, those pieces, and they die in reality! Thus, the commander that risked a major battle was amd since it was out of his control, it could og anyway, depending on what men call chance.

Hmm, I have been rambling... it's too late now I guess, and I've run out of tea. Crotte! Now six hours of sleep and then vacation. yay! I wil come back tesday and fix this mess up.. or mess it up even more, then I will haev to tell you about Blücher at Katzbach, my friends! Sorry if the last part might seem a little bit out of topic, but I jsut want everybody to understand what war is really aobut, not sitting in your armchair with a conjac and meditationg over wheter Napoleon did this or that wrong.

Måns

[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[FingolfintheBold]

The Raids into Ithilien were risky to say the best... I think they were conducted mostly for the moral of Gondor, to hear about victories even though the times were dark... Hope can be the strongest tool for keeping the civilian populous united. After all, with Berigond of the Gaurd on your side...

Gondor couldnt afford to let their enemies walk at will through the Land, otherwise more and more would be drawn to Sauron's cause. With the fear of an ambush and death less southern and eastern savages would run hastily to the dark Lord's call.

However, if an ambushing company were to lack a good drumheller and be defeated, it could be disasterous for the morale back home. Thats why strong willed individuals like Mablung and Damrod and Faramir were chosen as captains.

Actually i think it was unlikely that Boromir was ever leader of such an attack. Before the Fords were lost there was little need of such forayes, since more damaging battle could be fought without the secrecy of sneaking over the river ( I wasss sssneaking!). Boromir and his bro had there dream the morning before the battle, the Fords fell and then Boromir probably left for Imladris soon after. I dont have the timeline on me right now so i cant check for sure.

[Måns]

Hmmm interesting... the first parts I agree to refering to my post. But still they ahd o be careful, or the prey would run away and they didn't want to catch the attention of Sauron. di they? IF you mena that they conducted the same type of raid from Osgiliath, I would seriously doubt it, they must have had some kind of forward supply position to retreat to. It is no good if the enemy can sit on a map and say: 'They were there but they must go there, so we'll just block the way.' Taht would have ended up in a rather confused battle which we do not want.It is all aobut forward bases, friend. What supports that there were long raids for months is that Faramir uses the words: "Remember why it was I who was sent to Ithilen, and not Boromir, father." This means that it was considered important a duty to be sent to Ithilien and also that we are here speaking of long raids. The clock is 06:24 in the morning and I'm on my way. Boat is late...
CET, Central European time, Central African time AND central antarctic time.

Måns

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[Numenorean]

Fingolfin:
The Raids into Ithilien were risky to say the best... I think they were conducted mostly for the moral of Gondor, to hear about victories even though the times were dark... Hope can be the strongest tool for keeping the civilian populous united.
I agree with all you say there Fin, but the Raids were also a sound tactical basis of guerilla warfare. Man-for-man, Gondor reaped considerable physical success from their forays into Ithilien: attrition & stealth are brutally effective (even in our times with all our satellites/spy drones/technology) and as you also said, it was of upmost importance that:
Gondor couldnt afford to let their enemies walk at will through the Land
It was a double-edged gain for Gondor as the Raids not only offered a glimmer of hope for their people, but they also bred fear of ambush and associated paranoia within the rank and file of the Enemy.
Given the harsh reality of Saurons overwhelming numerical superiority, surely guerllia warfare was Gondors only logical plan of resistance?

[Finwe]

Gondor knew that she couldn't face Sauron in open battle, because that would be just folly. Sauron had the advantage of numbers. But Gondor had one thing that Sauron didn't, men who were willing to fight 'til the end in the defense of their homes and their country. No matter how frightened the Orcs were of Sauron, they could not fight like that.

Guerilla warfare has worked throughout history, when open warfare has failed. Look at Alexander the Great's campaigns. When crossing over the mountains in Persia, good ol' Alex had the presence of mind to send ahead sorties to annoy the Persian army. After a while, the leaders and the soldiers just get so annoyed and harried that they end up making a stupid mistake. Then, the main part of Alexander's army can swoop in and decimate the really annoyed soldiers. smilies/biggrin.gif

Another reason that the Raids into Ithilien were such a good idea is that you don't need a lot of men to do it. You can divide up your main fighting force into sectors, and while one sector is out there harrying, the others are preparing to fight. And then, they rotate. One of the more rested sectors goes into the fray, and the tired one falls back. That way, you get a nearly non-stop attacking force. Since the Gondorians knew Ithilien like the back of their hand, they could make a small force seem like a much larger force by moving around and using the land. I personally think it was one of Gondor's best strategies to keep up morale and to keep harrying the Orcs.

[Dimaldaeon]

Can I just go back to Dol Guldor for a second. Sorry.
When the battle,if there even was one, is won sorting out the fortifications is quite simple. They just use slighting, see Castle by Marc Morris. Cromwell, cough Satan cough, used this after the English Civil War. Here we have two Istari obviously skilled with explosives, all they have to do is dig a trench under a main wall put in a charge and hey presto half the castle comes crashing down. This is still used to demolish buildings today.

As for guerilla warfare in Ithillian, this was brilliant. I think it was an American officer who said that guerilla warfare can only be defeated by betrayal, as the Irish have proven again and again and again. As I don't see any Gondorians running off to help Sauron, he's pretty well stuck in how to defeat them without a massive frontal attack on Osgiliath, which did come.

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Dimaldaeon ]

[Rumil]

Hi all, just a short communication, as I'm suffering fom multiple bottles of wine and cans of Stella.

Dimaldaeon, I see your point, but remember the leaning tower of Caerphilly Castle, supposedly having been slighted by the evil warty Oliver Cromwell, still standing today, after 400 plus years. Also I reckon most of Dol Guldur would have been underground tunnnels etc.

Good points on the defence of Ithilien by Gondor, I wonder if Thorongil organised the Rangers of Ithilien originally, will have to check.

PS. Mans, I totally agree with you on the futility of war etc. (in at least 99% of cases) and the misrepresentation by 19th C armchair soldiers, though I think this discussion would be out of ME and more suited to private mails (lest we incur the wrath of the Wights). Blucher at the Katzbach, is that the time he thought he was giving birth to an Elephant sired on him by a Frenchman, or the time he believed that the French had heated the floor of his room so he could only walk on tiptoe?

My weekend plans having been dashed to the floor like so many Blue Wizards, I will attempt to post my thoughts on the Battle of the Five Armies soon.

[Måns]

Hahaha... Well, I can imagine that Wellington needed a lot of "stiff upper lip" when Blücher told him that iin confidence. Well, well, I'll try not to anger the wights but it is an interesting battle. The Prussians under Blücher were driven across the river Katzbach and Blücher gets an idea: "We'll cross the river and strike at the French right flank!" Said and done, the following morning his troops start marching in the heavy rains, the visibility is almost zero, one could only see a few meters ahead. Everything seems to be going fine, they are approaching the river but there is a yet unknown problem, the French commander ahs decided to do exactly the same thing but started of a few minutes before his adversary. This meant disaster, as the French are straggling to get up from the steep river bank they see the Prussians approaching. After a short tumult, the wet and tired Frech are driven back but the rear forces keep trying to cross and aPrussian cavalry charge mows them down turning it into a French route. By the end of the battle, Blücher knows two things about it, 1 That it ahs been fought. 2 That they have probably won since they had not yet been captured and that the fire was steadily moving away. When he learns that the French lost 15 000 in an uneven exchange agaisnt 300 Prussians, he sais to his chief of Staff, Moltke (not THE Moltke): "Well then, now it is only to convince everybody how ingeniously this was planned." This I tell you to illuminate the difficulties that arise when you try to be a commander, you have no control. Sorry if my last posts were rather rambling but I can't resist it. If anyone thinks that I am talking to unlistening ears, amking long and (too) unorganized posts, tell em and I will try to fix it. "To write the history of a battle is like writing the history of a dance!" (Yet again, Wellington, this time in a rather contemptous tone

Anyway, on slighting... Well you could in theory right but I still have to disagree. Slightings are used when after a long siege you want to storm a castle by surprise. A storming of a castle was an extremely bloody and messy affair for both sides, usually carried out by volunteers who got great shares of the booty for it. That is something that teh white council did not havewhich is why I think that it was reduced to almost nothing before it was stormed, in which case the walls would have been downed before it came to an assault. Also slighting is based upon the in the 17th century commonly used tactics of digging trenches closer and closer to the castle in question that was invented ebcause of the use of muskets and cannons which Sauron did not posess. Moreover, in that case Gandalf would have told Aragorn about the threat from Isengard, the use of explosives in a siege and then he would not ahve been so surprised, no?

Yes those are the foundations of guerilla warfare and one has to notice that many of the emn fighting there ahd once lived in Ithilien, before it was taken by the Enemy. This makes it impossible to accredit Thorongil with the invention of the guerilla war. By the way, good ol' Alexander's way of fighting was pretty common at the time, I wouldn't call it Guerilla fighting, rather probing and "teaser" attacks. This is becasue it was not conducted in a defensive war in a land once posessed but now occupied by an enemy and simply standard military procedure. Indeed, in the strictest interpretation of the word we couldn't even call Faramir a guerilla fighter since he was a commander of an armed force, sent into the lands with the mission of raiding and not the leader of a local band of resisters, but that's just being puritan.

I cannot agree that it was a great Gondorian strategy since these operations were always risky and costly. By the time of the war of the Ringthere was no chance of winning the war by military means and thus I would see the force as a drainer of well needed men and resources (not to mention commander, what if Faramir would have been killed) in pointless engagements. Of course it was a huge benefit that so amny men earned combat experience but it was taken over a limit when the raids were conducted even when they were exxcpecting an attack in the nearest days. My humble opinion, by the ay, if you ahven't noticed, I'm back!

Måns

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

By the time of the war of the Ringthere was no chance of winning the war by military means and thus I would see the force as a drainer of well needed men and resources...
Perhaps not of the whole war, but battles could be won. The Battle of the Pellenor Fields was crucially important. It was the true Battle of Gondor, as had it been lost, then Gondor would have fallen. Raids in Ithilien -- such as the one we saw, led by Faramir -- were important, and you must see the point of them. They damaged Mordor's forces. Gondor had to continue the war against Mordor, as it was only by keeping up this war and not being defeated that they could survive. They were fighters to the end. Damage done to Haradrim in Ithilien was damage done to the enemy; an enemy which was weakened as a result.

The Haradrim forces had to be met in battle sooner or later. If this battle was an ambush, executed by the Gondorians skillfully in country that the Dunedain had far superior knowledge of, then they had an advantage. The army that they destroyed would otherwise have been used against them, which is not a good thing. Perhaps they foresaw another, open battle, that would otherswise have been lost, possibly tipped in their favour by such raids.

An ambush, initiated by Faramir, stood a better chance of inflicting decent losses on the enemy without suffering much loss on his own side, and the Haradrim invaders were so much the weaker.

[Måns]

But you must certainly understand that I am not arguing against the raiding system as a whole, only that it, as it appears to me, became almost a fixed idea. In the actual case, it went well and they got to their more important positions before the start of the invasion, but imagine if they had been slowed down by something, or Faramir hadn't recognized that they needed to split? Disaster, the loss of the extremely important second in command, the heir to the steward and many battle hardened men in vain. Of course it was the only reasonable way Gondor could make war upon the Black Tower, but caution is hte better part of valour.

Måns

[Finwe]

That's true, but overcaution is just as bad as rashness. It is far better to dare mighty things than to just sit at home and not dare anything for fear of failure. Faramir knew the risks he was taking, and he felt that the ultimate result would far outweigh those risks. He welcomed death, rather than a life of thralldom, and I commend him for that. In some situations, you have to be a little rash. That is the only way you will succeed at anything.

[Måns]

In theory your reasoning sounds correct, I must admit and I have nothing to say about that caution could be as dangerous as rashness. Though one can apply this into most situations, one has to look at each event specificly. An example of good "rashness" is Alexander the Great at Granicos, he dared to take a great risk and won the battle. Another man that always gambled was Adolf Hitler, the IMO "worst" human being ever, he was always gambling in the thirties, breaking the Versailles treaty and invading Czechoslovakia, invading France and, the last and most fatal great gamble, invading the Soviet Union. That's an example of bad risk taking. The last raids in Ithilen is of neither type, Hitler could ahev gained very much from destroying the Red army and the Soviet union, and Alexander won much by his fast assault across the river but waht could Faramir have gained? He destroyed a few regiments of Haradrim, which is all he could have counted on doing. This is not worth the risk he took and I think that many people's instinctive reaction against the very word caution is because of the chances people have ahd through history without taking them, for example Gallipoli and it's almost identical replica, the western allied futile landing to the north of Rome in Round No. 2 in the European struggle for power. One ahs got to remember that the Soviet Union won that war not through it's daring attacks like the 1942 spring offensive by Timoshenko or pressing into the Ukraine after Stalingrad, both ended in major defeats, they were too risky. They won the second world war for the rest of us by carefully planned attacks like operation Uranus agaisnt the Sixth army were Zhukow refused to go on an offensive with the named German army still in Stalingrad and Hoth's Panzers in the Caucasus, he stubbornly refused even though what looked like fantastic chances appeared. In the end he was right and the German army group B was oblitterated and A was terribly mauled. He was a genious and he was cautious. The perfect commander si a mix between the two abilities, can you imagine what risk he took when starving the defenders of Stalingrad of troops and ammunition, holding back all his troops for the counter offensive in the winter of 1941? He risked total collapse because he knew that he could achieve something that was worth it, which Faramir could not.

Maybe these examples of warfare are not very medieval, but the basis is still the same, throughout all the history of warfare.

Indeed, a good commander should be lucky,but what is greater is having the ability when it is time to be rash and not.

Måns

[ July 15, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[Finwe]

I see where you're coming from. I agree that a good commander is a mix of rashness and caution. It just a matter of luck. If the commander is in the right situation for his personality, then he can be victorious.

[Rumil]

Well then, the Battle of the Five Armies, one of Tolkien's most detailed battles which still, naturally, poses many questions.

First, a quick introduction. Bard's Lakemen and Thranduil's Wood Elves were besieging Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) where Thorin's band of Dwarves were holed up. Dain had come to support Thorin, but just as he was launching his attack on the besiegers, Bolg's armies of orcs (Goblins) and wolves (Wargs) appeared. The Elves, Dwarves and men then allied to fight off the orcish hordes.

So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies and it was very terrible.

I'll start with the terrain, move on to the forces and their dispositions and summarise the course of the battle, finishing with some unanswered questions.

The terrain was a V shaped broad valley, open to the south but narrowing to the north where Thorin had dammed the river running and fortified the gates of Erebor. The river (I'd guess quite shallow so not too much of an obstacle) wound across the valley past the ruined town of Dale. On either side were the spurs of the mountains, the south-westerly one ending at an eminence called Ravenshill where there was a small lookout tower. The ground was devoid of vegetation, being the 'waste of Smaug' but full of rocks and the rubble of Dale. This would hinder an army fighting in close shoulder to shoulder ranks, so more open formations must have been necessary.

What do we know, and what can we guess, of the five armies that day?

The elves were led by their King, Thranduil and undoubtedly the nobles of his land (including Legolas?), with Gandalf and Bilbo (who was sensibly invisible). They led elven spearmen and archers. 1000 spearmen were present, it would be strange if there were not a similar or greater number of the famous elven bowmen. I'd imagine that there was a King's bodyguard unit as well. Potentially these could be cavalry as Thranduil often rode out hunting, but in the difficult terrain they would surely have dismounted. To speculate on numbers, I'd reckon around 1000 spearmen, 1200 bowmen and 300 guards, with the guards and probably the spearmen being armoured in chainmail. Their banner was green.

The dwarves of the Iron Hills were led by Dain Ironfoot, they were experienced veteran fighters, heavily armoured in chainmail, with armoured legs and feet. They carried heavy war mattocks (a type of digging tool, but presumably effective), short swords and shields. They also included some bowmen. (Crossbows are never mentioned, but if anyone had them it would surely be the mechanically minded dwarves?). There were more than 500 of them, so I'd think 500 heavy infantry and 100 bowmen. Their warcry was 'Moria', perhaps they had recognised Bolg son of Azog?

Bard's Lakemen included spearmen, archers (longbowmen if Bard is anything to go by) and swordsmen. They also sent out a small force of skirmishers. To speculate, I'd think about 1000 spearmen and swordsmen, 500 bowmen and 200 skirmishers (armed with bows?). Their banner was blue.

On the side of the good guys we can also add Thorin, the Eagles and Beorn. Thorin and his 12 Dwarven companions were magnificently armoured (possibly in mithril?) and had the pick of Erebor's weapon store ('magic' weapons maybe?). They had bows and Thorin carried an axe (he had lost Orcrist to the elves). The eagles were a powerful addition, they were led by the 'Lord of the Eagles' (presumably Gwaihir, perhaps with his buddies Landroval and Meneldor, but see a recent thread for this). Numbers are difficult to imagine, Bilbo described 'line after line' of eagles, I'd have to say at least 30, probably more, but they were individually very powerful creatures.

Lastly, there was Beorn (there are many, many threads on him if you wish to debate his nature and origin). He appeared in the form of a great bear (he was a man but a shapechanger and, no doubt, something of a magician - according to JRRT). He was extremely powerful, nearly invulnerable and very dangerous (perhaps similar in power to an ent??).

The orcs were led by Bolg and they greatly outnumbered the three allied armies. They comprised at least three quarters of the orcs of the North. They came from many lairs in the Misty Mountains and their capitol at Mount Gundabad. (Maybe they had reinforcements from Moria, the Grey Mountains and the old fortresses of Angmar, Carn Dum and Mount Gram?). Bolg brought his bodyguard too, orcs of great size (perhaps Uruk-Hai?). I'd imagine at least 10,000 orcs were present. They carried spears scimitars, hammers, axes and shields and some at least were armoured. They fought under red and black banners.

The fifth army was the army of Wargs (or great wolves), some were ridden by orcs. Again, its difficult to suggest a number (though there were 'hundreds and hundreds' at the previous rendezvous). I'd think a few thousand with perhaps some hundreds of wolfriders.

Lastly, and strangely most crucially for the evil armies, were the bats. They formed a dark cloud over the orcs which enabled them to fight in daylight (though the weather was overcast and stormy, not bright).

Thranduil's wood elves were placed on the south-western spur of hills, Dain's dwarves and Bard's lakemen were placed on the south-eastern spur. In the valley there were some brave skirmishers (in later days called a 'Forlorn Hope') who were to hold up and bunch the orcs so that the main forces could charge down from either flank.

Bolgs armies wre led by the wolfriders with the mass of orcs following on, backed up by Bolg's bodyguard and the Wargs. He also detatched a force of orcs to climb the mountain and attack the rear of the allies' lines.

To summarise the battle -
- Wolfriders repulse the skirmishers, orcs advance into valley
- Orcs are charged by the elves, supported by their bowmen
- Dwarves and men charge in on the other flank
- A general melee ensues, but the good guys are in trouble when the orc detatchment attacks from the mountainside
- Twilight! - Bolg commits his reserves, his Bodyguard and the Wargs
- Thorin and the 12 dwarves attack from the gates of Erebor, dwarves, elves and men charge again to support him.
- Bolg's bodyguard stands firm, the charge dissipates, Thorin is surrounded, the allies are pushed back to their hills.
- The Eagles are coming! They dislodge orcs from the mountainside but the battle in the valley continues
- Beorn appears and charges the orcs' rear, he rescues the mortally wounded Thorin and returns to devastate Bolg's bodyguard and kill Bolg himself
- With their leader down and their finest unit broken, the orcs and wolves flee the field
- The three armies pursue them with great execution

Well, there you have it! We're still left with some questions though. What were the likely numbers on either side? Was Legolas involved? How effective in combat were the eagles, the wolves, Beorn and Gandalf for example? Would the orcs have fought without their 'batcloud', and where did they all come from anyway. What do you think of the tactics on either side?

[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Rumil]

Well, hmmmm,

Is nobody into the Battle of Five Armies! Oh well, I really wanted to hear some opinions of what wolves could do on a battlefield, anyway...

Moving on to the raids in Ithilien, much has been discussed on this matter above. Just a few dates etc. to sort out, then hopefully I'll pique your interest with a bit of discussion.

The 'Watchful Peace' ended in 2460. The attacks on Gondor from Minas Morgul were renewed, with Osgiliath taken and the bridge destroyed in 2475. By 2885 there were frequent Haradrim attacks on Southern Ithilien culminating in the defeat of the Southrons by Gondor and Rohan at the Fords of the Poros.

By 2901 the attacks of Uruks from Mordor forced all but the hardiest inhabitants out of Ithilien. Turin II was Steward of Gondor, he responded by creating secret bases such as Henneth Annun and fortifying Cair Andros. During Turgon's stewardship, Sauron returned to Mordor (2942), then just after Ecthelion II's accession Mount Doom resumed its eruptions (2954) and the last inhabitants fled from Ithilien. There was still a force of arms held in Ithilien, and its possible that Aragorn (as Thorongil) led or organised the Rangers of Ithilien during the 2960s and 70s. During the last years of Denethor II's stewardship the Rangers were led by Faramir (and perhaps Boromir at times).

In my opinion, it seems plain that this was generally a low-intensity border-war, with frequent skirmishes over a period of more than 500 years. Ithilien was used as a buffer zone, to keep Sauron's forces well away from poulated Gondor and provide warnings of major invasions.

During the early 2900s there were still 'civilians' in Ithilien. I wonder if they lived in protected secluded villages such as their ancestors used in Brethil? Presumably the orcs would wish to raid and destroy these communities, while the Gondorian soldiery tried to protect them.

With the evacuation of civilians in 2954, Ithilien became a solely military zone. I'd like to think that the Rangers were organised by Aragorn, who could certainly have passed on the tracking techniques etc. of the Rangers of Arnor, also there's a possibility that men of other countries joined this unit. Ecthelion recruited widely and Faramir mentions a Ranger from Rohan.

It's said that a number of secret strongholds were built but only Henneth Annun survived to the War of the Ring. There must have been frequent searches for, and assaults on, the other strongholds during the late 2900s.

The Rangers, as we encounter them under Faramir, dressed in green hooded cloaks to aid concealment in the woods and carried spears or longbows. Their number was probably not very great, a few companies,so 200 to 500 men perhaps. Their enemies were the orcs of Mordor, occasionally Haradrim and possibly Easterlings.

The Rangers performed a useful intelligence-gathering task, kept the enemy at arms length from Gondor, allowed the soldiery to gain combat experience and kept up the morale of Gondor with their small victories. In the end, though, they could not even hope to dent the Sauron's great army, but sensibly pulled back to defend Minas Tirith.

[Finrod Felagund]

Hail,
On the ambush of Faramir, since the army was led by the Lord of the Ringwraith's the men would panic and as it said in the Lord of the Rings the men would fall and weep.Even though the men were strong they might run and might join Sauron.Faramir's men were mainly bow men so they wouldn't stand a chance against legions of bowmen,spearmen, and footmen.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Indeed, a good commander should be lucky,but what is greater is having the ability when it is time to be rash and not.(Mans)
Which Faramir clearly had, did he not?

Sorry that I don't have time to say anything more than this in this thread today, but it is interesting, Rumil.

[Numenorean]

Greets Rumil,
Is nobody into the Battle of Five Armies!
This is a great topic (and battle Rumil)!I for one needed to re-read the Hobbit before posting.
How effective in combat were the eagles, the wolves, Beorn?
All good questions mate! Beyond keeping the skies and mountainsides in check I'm unsure how effective the Eagles would be against hordes of armoured ground troops, fairly intimidating to have one swoop at you, but surely the lower they come the more vulnerable they are too?
The Wolves/Wargs must've been good for shock tactics, but beyond that I would deem their biggest weakness to be a lack of military coordination and discipline, maybe.
For me Beorn is the pivotal element in this battle. He comes over as a total force of nature, unstoppable and singleminded, armed (presumably) with only his teeth and claws and possessing no armour I believe? To be as brutally effective as he was, Beorns speed, intensity and ferocity in this battle must've been phenomenal by any standards!

[Måns]

Farmir did. And Faramir did not. He gives proof of his rashness as an operational commander when he has the force saty in Ithilien for so long, though it was doubtless that whatever they would have time to do would haev absoutely no effect on the outcome of the battle. Taht is being too eager to battle and taking a decision too swiftly, he should have chosen the safer path. He proved his rashness when fighting in the rearguard on the battle of Pelennor even though it sure was a brave deed, one has got to see to military reason and not only symbolic emotional appeal. His first duty was to keep himself alive to be able to direct the forces in such manner as he could. If you say that he did hold the troops together across the plains, I counter with, is it impossible that eh could haev done this a few lines back, in relative security? He did, but that does not make his decision right. Waht if the arrow that hit him ahd struck earlier, when they were still close to the Rammas, or out on the open plains? Total demoralization as happens when the commander is slain, especially a loved and famous one, simply a disorganized route. He could and should not have taken that risk and I think that is quite clear now, it went well but that does not justify his decision, no professional would think that way.

Hastily to other matters, the only thing we can do to analyze Beorn is to interpret him, from a bear to a fierce host of mountain warriors with a terrible onslaught. The most important part of their attack was the charge. As with most such tribes, their first assault is the most powerful whereafter they are gradually worn down due to lack of discipline. The effect of this charge was enhanced extremely by the fact taht it came from behind, partly because they weren't ordered for an attack from that direction, though, order wasn't their strongest side. What made it so effective was the factor of morale. They were already engaged in comabt with hosts on three sides which means that hte regular prder of battle was sundered and their flanks were gradually eroded since we can guess that the strongest assault was aimed at the gate. The weaker troops on the flanks were forced to press on, while their forward ranks were egaged all the time. This takes a terrible force on the force in sheer numbers but also morally, being surrounded is a soldier's worst nightmare since the chances of victory or even escape seems and are so small. How importnat morale is we see in for exampel the battle of Poltava, 1709 in the Great Nordic war, where fourthousand unsupported, starved, tired, demoralized by the loss of a third of the army the same day and poorly armed Swedish infantrymen advanced against 22000 Russian soldiers, well fed, confident, well armed, supported by over one hundred pieces of artillery. What is interesting is that it might seem like suicide BUT, the well trained Swedish veterans charged, caring little for death, and the first Russian line (of two) broke up and ran straight into the second that started withdrawing too but many held their ground and the distances between the Swedish battalions were too short and they were surrounded and slaughtered. But even then, if the cavalry that had just crossed a morass ahd had time to get organized, they could have decided the battle for their King. In reality, 4000 men could never beat 22000 men to the last amn, that is virtually impossible if the hosts are the least even in quality, but the disciplined force of the charge, as always with Swedish infantry totally silent, made the Russians who were afraid of Swedish soldiers since the humiliating defeat every time they had met on the field before started withdrawing, due to lack of morale. The Swedish left wing later broke because there was a rumour that the King Karl XII. who was well behind the lines for once since he ahd been shot in the foot three days before, had fallen and since he was considered a military genious and called the army's guardian angel, the men broke into panic. Two examples from the same battlefield. Had the goblins been a well trained army, it might not have happened, since units with experience and training usually stay put even in the most dangerous situations. The Romans at Cannae never broke down totally,a few thousand even got out on the south side of the encirclement but one cannot excpect discipline of orcs.

Måns

[ August 16, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[FingolfintheBold]

About eagles/wargs/Beorn, i tend to think that the eagles would be less effective at actually doing physical damage to orc ranks and would do more harm to morale. For example, just the coming of the clouds of bats caused great dread and distress for the dwarves and men and elves in the battle. What real harm can a bunch of bats do in battle? Not too much, and yet a brooding mass of them as harbingers of doom has a great effecton enemy troops. I imagine a cloud of heroic eagles filling the sky, sun on thier wings, lashing at the orcs faces while never presenting a clear target, picking up orcs and casting them on to the rocks...That would ruin my morale pretty quick!

Wargs were feared by horsemen and companys of lightly armoured men, and were wonderful at hunting fugitives and waking woodmen from sleep. But in an all out battle with fully armoured soldiery on rocky terrain their effect wouldnt be nearly as terrible.

Beorn: He is probably one of the biggest deciding factors in the battle. First of all, Beorn was a BIG guy. Lets say, for the fun of it, 10 feet tall. A normal man is about 6 foot, to a 12 foot grizzly bear. So that puts Beorn's bear right close to 20 feet (on hind legs, of course) of orc thrashing muscle and teeth. His hide could almost certainly turn all but the heaviest spears and arrows.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, you may be right about Faramir actually. But then again he may have had to. He was the commander of a medieval-style army; he had to be there in the battle, rather than behind it. His presence was certainly very important in the retreat, and we don't know what problems they had in withdrawing from Ithilien.

The Eagles would have probably been quite a big factor in this battle, as they were in the Battle before the Gates at the despairing march of the Captains of the West. They would have had a similar effect to the Nazgul (but on the other side, of course) in terrorising the enemy and inspiring the Western troops, as has been said. But I do not doubt that they would have been formidable warriors.

A long dive, a lethal and well-aimed strike with huge (remember that these were not ordinary-sized eagles) talons to an unsuspecting enemy, swooping away into the sun and out of harm's way again -- as the unfortunate target's comrades scattered, to be largely hacked down by Elvish or Lakemen soldiers -- to attack again within, probably, not so many tens of seconds. As well as they, their presence would have disrupted the bats in the skies. Remember that Eagles were a deciding factor in the War of Wrath, as well. They would have been a formidable foe.

[Måns]

No medieval commander ever fought in the front unless it was abolutely necessary, that is if he was attacked. There duty is to pick a good defensive position behind the lines, preferably with a view over the battlefield and commanded through couriers. In critical situations, he had to charge into the battle with his personal bodyguard, which was often an elite force, and this had a tremdous effect of boosting morale, but it's nothing that was done regualrly, considering the risks and the small actual effect. If he would be slain, or even worse, his banner taken which would carry the word of defeat faster than anything, no one would stand fast. Remember the battle of Hastings, when the troops were broguht to halt the flight by Williams' personal bravery, they thoguht he was slain and ran away. At that moment, he sat up on a new horse pulled back his helmet and shouted: Look at me! I am still alive and the day is ours! Follow me! and lead his personal bodyguard and many knights in a charge against the following fyrdmen on the plain field who were completely slaughtered. His personal appearance on the field adn brave charge calmed the forces down, then he returned to position. When Faramir was in the front line, he could have controlled, at max the company closest to him, not even that if he was personally involved which he was. Company commanders are to do that, not the chief of the theatre of operations. That is bizarre to require that of him. If the men 50 meters to the left of him had started to flee, what would he ahev done if he ahd even noticed? Would he have disengaged and ran back, through the lines of his company and caught up with them? Nobody runs faster than a fleeing soldier.

On the effectiveness of eagles, it must have been fairly fine on single men and to some extent organized troops without spears. But they could have done nothing against, say a Spanish sqaure without the muskets. A forest of spears pointing upwards, swoop down at that, not comfortable. In this battle, their greatest achievement was that they rid the mountainsides of orcs and thus allowed the troops bound up in the rear to disengage, not to speak about the panic they must haev caused.

SUM MÅNS OPTIMUS MAXIMUS

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

No medieval commander ever fought in the front unless it was abolutely necessary, that is if he was attacked.
This is not true. Richard the Lionheart? Harold, William of Normandy's foe (admittedly killed by an arrow, but said to have been consistently in the action)? And many others. Kings have often fought in battles, considered right for them to do so and, as you say and exemplify with your reference to William the Conquerer, as a boost to morale and to terrify the enemy. Probably exactly what Faramir's army required.

True though, the Eagles could not have attacked infantry in spear/bayonet-bristling, orginised squares (employed not just by the Spanish) any more than cavalry could in battle. Orcs would probably have trouble holding this sort of discipline, although they were capable of doing so; as you say on the mountainside it would have been impossible.
However at any rate, to form squares the troops must first know of an attacking enemy that instigates the defensive response. Attacking from the air and probably out of the sun deliberately (similar to wartime dogfighting), detection of an Eagle before it was too late would have been difficult. The Orcs were most likely preoccupied, either with fighting land enemies or climbing craggy precipices. The Eagles would have been very deadly against such unsuspecting enemies.

It would be interesting to know how many Eagles were killed in this battle, and in the Battle Before the Gates, but that is not recorded.

[Måns]

Gwaihir, please. First, why should the enemy be terrified by the commander? No, it was only the morale of your own troops that benefited from it. You seem to quite have misunderstood my last post. In William's case, he saw that the moment was come and cahrged. This was not meant that he was among the men that beat the Saxon army all the time. He had one single opportunity, as I described, and with his feresh household guard held in reserve, he charged and was followed by many otehr knights. Then, as said, he returned to his position at the foot of the hill. This is not meant as if he actually fought in the frontline, he is most likely to have stayed in the middle of the guard, togeteher with his confanonier who played and almost as important role as he himself in being his only sign of being alive that could be seen from afar. But you don't see the difference between this moment and Faramir's retreat was a long withdrawalover the fields. Kings did fight in battles, tehy had too, it was part of their duties. But don't imagine that they fought in the forefront. Richard the first, the slaughterer of civilians for the fun of it by the way, has been seen as a man fighting and leading from the front. It was not so, but his propagandists have done quite a job! There were probably occasions when he came into battle, but not on the terms of an ordinary soldier, I ssure you. On Harold, he is said to have been hurt badly but not slain by the arrow. No, he did not fight in the front line, he stood by his banner, the Fighting men, on the top of the hill, surrounded by his Huskarls who were the royal guard, compare to Greek Hetairoi. Faramir's decision was to fight as an ordinary soldier in the very foremost front, all the time. From there, he controlled the company closest to him, fi he was not engaged personally which he seems to haev been. He relinquished all control of teh battle to the company commanders which is good, but he did not have the overall control. His subordinates had no contat with eachother, if one company broke, the rest would either do the same or be outflanked, and there was nothing Faramir could have done about it.
Please, I don't see what your problem is, with me or with this?

Now, to the Spanish squares. Haev I ever said that they were ever a solely spanish tactic? No, in the proffesional terminology, both now and then, a Spanish square indicates a giant square with Pikes in the middle and a few lines of muskets on the outside. It was a generally used formation, not only by Spanish armies. Look at the battle of Breitenfeld. No Spaniards, noly Germans and Austrians, still Spanish squares. (They were beaten by the new strategy there, the multiple lines with small and manoeuverable troops, invented by Gustav II Adolf). Moreover, I ahve never said that ti was required to form the troops in squares, that would be silly. You do not seem to realize that it took time to organize troops, even without a battle raging. It is not like in a video game where you click the mouse and everybody nows their exact positions and gets to them virtually immediately. It would be a great obstacle even to make yourself heard by the whole formation. The valley was filled, and I presume that the eagles did not sweep down at the front line due to the increased danger. All they would have had to done was to stick their spears up, those without would have to suffer. Not all orcs were busy fighting.

Måns

[Rumil]

Hi all,

glad to see some debate has been stirred up!

Of the eagles, I agree that their attacks on the goblns climbing the mountainside would have been rather effective, as they simply grabbed the unfortunate snagas and dropped them from a great height! No soldiers like to encounter something they have no means of defence against and I'd imagine these attacks shattered the morale of this force. However, I'd agree that they were less likely to be effective against steady, spear or pike armed troops, but perhaps, like cavalry, would induce them to form a dense 'hedgehog' and inhibit their movement. The eagles are noted as being wary of the 'great bows of men' (perhaps Smaug should have followed their example!), so would also have been less keen on attacking formations of bowmen (or bow-orcs).

Wolves are, I feel, rather tricky to pin down. Ordinary wolves are far too sensible to go anywhere near a large number of people, and, as far as I know, will only attack vulnerable humans, such as children or exhausted travellers, and then very rarely. (Alaskan, Canadian and Russian BD-ers, we could do with your wolfly knowledge here!). However we're really dealing with 'Uber-wolves', the Wargs or 'Hounds of Sauron'. As has been said, their major ability was attacking isolated settlers and, probably, fleeing or disorganised troops. In a battle, they seem to have become distracted and often attacked their orcish allies in the heat of the moment. Wolves are said to be loyal to their pack-leader, perhaps the loss of this individual would cause them to turn tail? I don't think they would have had great effect on steady troops in a shieldwall, for example.

I'd agree with Numenorean that Beorn appears as quite exceptionally powerful in this battle. As he was said to be 'something of a sorceror', I wonder if he 'magically' enhanced the size and strength of his bear-form, as Gandalf and Galadriel seem to do at times? As it was he charged directly into the rear of Bolg's bodyguard, presumably catching them by surprise at a time when the rest of the goblin forces were already committed, losing their leader Bolg disheartened the whole army, a common enough occurrence amongst less professional troops.

Not to get deeply into the Faramir question(all in good time!), I'd agree with Gwaihir that in the medieval period (and other times), a leader was often expected to charge with his men. Even Alexander the Great felt this to be necessary. Many medieval armies were not sufficiently organised or disciplined for them to be controllable by couriers with messages from high command. Additionally, it was a matter of prestige for the commander to be seen as exceptionally valiant. More organised armies could be more effectively controlled by generals behind the line of battle, eg. the Romans and horse-and-musket period forces.

I'd agree with Mans about the difficulty of maneuvering medieval troops on the battlefield. In the main, they were simply pointed in the right direction and told to get on with it! As someone said, 'he who maneuvers in the face of the enemy is disordered'. I'd also agree on the paramount importance of morale at such battles, a good example being the successful relief of Vienna from the Turks by the Polish Hussars who were outnumbered at least 10 to 1, but were fighting an army which chained their gunners to artillery pieces to stop them running away!

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Hi everyone,

Faramir wasn't a king he was a captain and captains are supposed to lead men into battle. He probably wanted to make sure his troops got out alright because if I was in his place i would feel like a terible commander if i was in the first group to retreat and left my men leaderless.

As for the eagles I'm pretty sure they were not physically involved, in The Hobbit and LOTR it says that the eagles were at the battle but only very high up and distant, I would guess they just served as a morale booster(except when retrieving Frodo and Sam).

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Due to the fact that I don't feel I am really being understood, I think I shall be discontinuing my presence in this thread (at least for the foreseeable future). If you have some sort of personal issue with me, Mans (a prevailant vibe over many threads), I suggest you message me in private.

[Måns]

Like everybody else, you are free to PM me, in a sensible and polite tone, of course. But I have never had a problem with you until you obviously had one with me. If you still have a problem with me, PM me, after all, it IS your problem and not mine.

I know that my appearánce in this thread has been sadly one sided but it has had to be so. What I have said is true, on medieval armies and Faramir. Look for example at Saladin, probably the greatest medieval general, he was during his wars against the Kingdom of Jerusalem only close to be in combat once, and that was at Mont Gisard, his only defeat. That was ab ambush upon his army when it was in marching column and he had no chance of evading that his guard came into combat, he was in the middle of it! There si a diference ehre that I have been trying to point out, it is quite subtle. Kings and captains were excpected to be in the battles and, if necessary partake in them personally with their guard. The difference between this unfrequent appearance in the frontline and staying back adn Faramir's reckless but brave behaviour is that eh fought in the front line. You say that Faramir was there to controll his men, and I ask once again, what time had he to notice or do anything aobut whatever happened around him if he was struggling for his life to survive. Because that is what a battle was and is about, every man fighting to survive. You say that a battle could not be run through couriers in those times,, but that is actually what they were, if any orders were needed. What is not commonly known is the exact precision of the medieval armies in command, peasantry excluded. Ordering was effective and exact. But when the battle had ensued there was little a commander could do, since whatever sound signals he amde were not heard, visual signals not seen, move orders unable to carry out. What the commander could do in that situation was to direct the reserves, foremost among which was, of course, his personal guard. If necessary he threw it in the balance. The reason why he still had to at least retain a visual contact with his men was that the back lines, those who started fleeing first, regularly,were looking abck at the commander, to see signs of how the battle was going. If he ws retreating, they relaized that this was going no good and would probably follow his example. If he wasn't seen, they would presume that he had retreated. More importantly, he could personally use his reserve elite guard to calm down a crisis, simply by putting them behind troops that appear to be wavering, so as to show them he was behind, or even if necessary break into the battle. He just had to keep out fo the battle as long as possible. No wise King or commander ever voluntarily charged into the enemy, there are countless examples of the contrary, wise men who kept behind the lines. Did Henry fight in Agincourt? Did his French opponent? Did Barbarossa in all his campaigns fight? Isn't it odd that Kings seldomly die in battle, the last example drowned. I can keep in giving examples for ages, but I will contend with Caesar, who did the same at Alesia as William at Hastings, however not medieval, commanding battles changed little from his time to Richard the First. He raised the banner of his bodyguard and charged downhill at the Gauls, his purple clothes shwon clearly in the front. He did so because he had an amazing reputation among his trooops and knew that the effect of the charge would be tremendous upon their morale, and grievous for his enemies. I am not yet convinced of the opposite, as you see, but if anyone would want this thread to be a little wider, just tell me and we can open a thread for this alone.

Måns

By the way, I love getting 1 ratings, I can't stand any serious rating by anyone. I will not say anything that is rash, I contend with asking you others not to be as childish as these people and give me, and everybody else, the rating deserved and earned.

[ August 18, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[Rumil]

My my, hastiness!! hoom, hoom!!

While I feel that drawing historical parallels is necessary for this thread, I'd like to ask posters to continue debates that are specifically historical rather than overtly Tolkien-related by personal mail. (We wouldn't want to get shut down now would we?)

And just chill out for goodness sake ladies and gents!!
smilies/tongue.gif

Meanwhile, back at the thread, TheSquireof aragorn, I think you'll find that the eagles 'cast the goblins over the precipice'(or similar), though I'll concede that this does not necessarily mean that they had physical contact. Perhaps they simply terrified the goblins into a stampede which ended with a long fall off a short cliff -ooops! I'd certainly imagine that the orcs were demoralised by the appearence of the eagles, much the same as the Morgul army when they found the Corsairs were in fact Aragorn and co., a nasty surprise really.

PS. Have we found no-one with pet wolf theories? (That's pet theories on wolves, not theories on pet wolves..... whatever)

[ August 18, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Numenorean]

Mans: Isn't it odd that Kings seldomly die in battle
Tell that to Richard III at the Battle of Bosworth 1485! Though by and large the King/Ruler will not be directly involved in the thick of the action, there are always exceptions Mans. If the said King/Ruler does get involved, that does not necessarily mean he is being reckless either, he could actually be just that damn brave.
You say that Faramir was there to controll his men, and I ask once again, what time had he to notice or do anything aobut whatever happened around him if he was struggling for his life to survive
Gondors situation was 'do or die' and they desperately needed him (a high profile Gondorian noble) and his skills in the action. Because he was 'stuggling for his life to survive' he was in the best position to appreciate the realities of the campaign and formulate the necessary counter-strikes. Faramir never came across as being reckless to me, brave, realistic and intuitive are what I would describe him as, and after all is said and done, he was massively successful in Ithilien.

[ August 19, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Måns]

Well, I have really been asked to stick to Tolkien in this thread... But, I think I will.

Shortly on Richard the III at Bosworth. His counterpart thought he needed a local noble, Lord Stanley who had sworn allegiance to them both, to win the battle. His army stood right by the others. Since Tudor didn't lead his forces personally, he rode with his entire guard of knights to Stanley. Richard saw that and with his only cavalry reserve, his own personal force of 800 knights he charged down upon Tudor, bearing down upon him before he ahd reached Stanley. He did so because he ahd too, when his guard rode he couldn't leave it as he personally commanded it and needed it to slay Tudor. At this moment, Lord Stanley decided to save Tudor that in fact was his step-son. He charged with his knights in the back of Richard's guard and obliterated it, whereafter he fell. Ricahrd went into battle because he had too, but he saw no risk, attacking 200 knights in their flank with 800 should be a piece of cake, he thougth Stanley was on his side. Stanley's son was a hostage, to be killed if the old man betrayed the King. Stanley's comment is said to have been: "I have plenty of sons!" Yes, bravery is something praiseworthy, especially for the individual soldier. But it comes with a risk, you can gamble with your own life, that is up to you, but he shouldn't have gamled with his men's lives, or Gondor itself, no?

Gondor's situation was, indeed, ot do or die, but what cpuld he possibly do? If he there could appreciate the realities of the campaign, could he not do that with a clearer view 50 yards behind it? There, he would be free to send couriers with commands, be seen by anybody that turned around, and see all of his troops. He was no giant, he could not see above the men next to him. If he even had time to look to the sides, that is, he struggled to save himself, as all men in battle. His skills in action cannot be worth the risk taken if he would be die. No man can alone make that difference only through fighting personally, especially when the numbers of emn are so vast. He was needed to keep his men together, but how much do you think the men 100 or even 30 yards away saw of him? Surely, he boosted morale among the men next to him, but none else would have noticed he fought there, nor would he have noticed the changes on other parts of the line that though it cannot have been long, must have been long enough to prevent immediate surrounding. Being valiant is in itself not admirable, only for a cause, and when we weigh the risks against the possible benefits, I think it is quite clear that fighting at least 30 yards back is preferable!

Best Regards, Måns!

[ August 19, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I don't know about any of you, but I think Faramir and the Eagles have been debated enough, so can we please move on to the next battle?

[Numenorean]

Before we do move on to the next one, I've got a final mention of Beorn Squire! Rumil made an interesting thought here: Beorn appears as quite exceptionally powerful in this battle. As he was said to be 'something of a sorceror', I wonder if he 'magically' enhanced the size and strength of his bear-form
He must certainly be 'gifted' or empowered in some way, but maybe it was more instinctive than deliberate, the Hobbit P.271: He came alone, and in bear's shape; and he seemed to have grown almost to giant-size in his wrath
It kinda seems like his size was tied to his battle-rage, like the madder he got the bigger he became perhaps? Whatever its source though, his personal power must've been a match for just about anyone in ME. The only image I've found which begins to do Beorns presence justice is here:Battle (http://www.tolkienion.com/images/wyatt/clouds.gif) He is quite far off in the melee, but still big enough to descry as "he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers." I only wish Beorn and his shapeshifting kin got more of a mention in the LoTR.

[ November 18, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

...maybe it was more instinctive than deliberate... It kinda seems like his size was tied to his battle-rage, like the madder he got the bigger he became perhaps?
Hmmm, I think it was probably deliberate. The expandability of the size of Beorn probably reflects the amount of 'power' he is using; he may draw, in his animality, from anger in some way for this power. Alternatively he might have a scale, and grows to a particular size when the situation requires it (putting in more or less power as needed).

There was certainly something uncanny about him. Some acttion of Radagast is a real possibility, or perhaps some other Ainuric power. The only other options seem to be a freak note or something in the Music, or direct intervention from Illuvatar (the most unlikely).

Ok then, let's move on smilies/smile.gif.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Anyone got any ideas on what they want to talk about?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hold on, let's get Rumil back in here. =]

[Snowdog]

Good thread! I have given thought to some of the lesser 'battles' of Middle Earth, such as the invasion of the Corsairs and Southrons along the shores of Middle Earth, and their assistance to the Dunlandings, and the Long Winter of Third Age 2758-59 when Helm Hammerhand froze to death while being seiged at Helms Deep, or the continually running battles the Dúnedain of the North fought with orcs, wargs, and hillmen from the time of the downfall of Arthedain to the time of the War of the Ring. Details are sketchy, but an analysis of the lands and the general tactics used by the small force of Rangers is quite interesting.

Well, don't mean to sidetrack this thread.. back to the discussion. smilies/smile.gif

[Rumil]

Hi all,

thanks for the kind invitation Gwaihir, I'll be back with the 'next installment' soon, but have essential beer to drink in the meantime. Perhaps that'll help inspire me smilies/wink.gif .

By the way, Snowdog, I'm looking forward already to a 'Battles of the Mid-Third Age' thread.

Cheers,
R

[ August 23, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Niluial]

I wanted to join the previous discussion but I decided not to. When is the next discussion starting and what battle are we doing it on?

Thank you
Niluial

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Well, this is Rumil's topic why don't we let him decide.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Settle down, there, everyone... let's just leave our beloved runemaker to his boozing for now, eh? I daresay he'll be back before long. All the time in the world. smilies/smile.gif

[ August 25, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Rumil]

Well, I'm back,

what a weekend!

Swiftly moving on smilies/wink.gif
to raids on Rohan from the 2950s. As usual, the key dates first, then some speculation.

In 2953 Fengel, the greedy king of Rohan, died and his son, Thengel, was recalled from Gondor. In that year, probably hoping to profit from the interregnum, Saruman fortified Isengard, started encroaching on Rohan and supporting its enemies. Somewhere between 2957 and the 2970s Aragorn fought for Thengel (in disguise as Thorongil). In 2980 Thengel died and was succeeded by Theoden, who was well liked by the people and whose kingdom was 'at peace for many years'. However by the the time of the births of Eomer and Eowyn (Theoden's nephew and neice) in the 2990s, Sauron's power was becoming menacing. In 3000 Saruman used the palantir and was snared. Around this time Sauron sent orcs over the Anduin to raid the eastern regions of Rohan and kill or capture horses (taking the black ones presumably). More orcs raided from the Misty Mountains, including Saruman's Uruks. One raid is recorded where in 3002 Eomund (Eomer's father) pursued a small band of orcs to the Emyn Muil, on the eastern borders of Rohan, but was ambushed by a larger force amongst the hills and rocks and was killed. By 3014 Theoden had become ill and prematurely aged due to the works of Wormtongue. In 3017 Eomer was appointed as marshal of the Eastfold, Theodred the king's son was Marshal of the Westfold and Elfhelm commanded the muster of Edoras.

Well then, a few things remain unclear.

It seems as if the raiding and encroaching in Thengel's time were small scale, as the first years of Theoden's regin were apparently peaceful. Perhaps the raiding was limited to border skirmishes with the Dunlendings during this time and they were suppressed with the help of Thorongil?

By 3000 the raids became more serious with Sauron's orcs (from Dol Guldur or Mordor?) making incursions into the sparsely populated horse raising regions of the Wold and the East Emnet. Eomund seems to have been set up in a classic ambush. With only 'a few men' (perhaps his Marshal's household eored of approx 120) he pursued into the rough terrain of the Emyn Muil, which sems unsuitable for cavalry, being hilly and rocky. Then he was ambushed (perhaps in a narrow valley) and killed.

I wonder when Rohan truly realised that Saruman had turned against them and was sending Uruk raids? Perhaps Wormtongue's politicking covered it up until a few years before the War of the Ring?

As to the forces involved, the Rohirrim are clearly described as chain mail armoured cavalry with swords, shields and lances. They used stirrups so were very effective in a charge, like Norman knights, but were prepared to fight dismounted if required. A small number of riders were armed with bows. Its likely that the less well-off riders were more lightly equipped. Rohan also had infantry. In HoME 8 (for what its worth) the forces of Rohan are described as 10,000 cavalry and 10,000 infantry, made up of swordsmen, bowmen and light troops from the Dales, some mounted on ponies. The 10,000 cavalry is confirmed in LoTR and we see the infantry at Helm's Deep and the Fords of the Isen, probably they were local militia forces.

The oppositon included the Dunlendings, who had been skirmishing with Rohan for centuries. I see the Dunlendings as similar to the 'barbarians' who fought Rome, ie the Gauls, Germans and British- hard charging, but lightly equipped, ill disciplined, tribal warriors. Sauron and Saruman both employed orcish raiders and Uruk-Hai and probably wolfriders too.

During this time the threats seemed minor but I think Saruman was using these minor skirmishes to spy out the land and to distract Rohan from the massive buidup of forces he intended to use to annihilate their country.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

No time for a discussion right now, but I would think myself that these Orcs were acting under the power (that came from his continuing presence in the world rather than direct control, obviously) of Sauron rather than Saruman. Saruman would have gathered them and made use of them, though, and this would be the stock from which he built up his large armies.

20,000 men isn't much... a full mobilisation I would suspect to be rather more, but of course the prowess of the fierce Rohirrim was formidable as we know.

[FingolfintheBold]

Earkenbrand, Lord of Westfold was 3rd marshal of the Riddermark, correct? Or did i misread somewhere? Anyway, he was fairly high in the chain of command, but is only very breifly discribed and, as far as I know, doesnt attend the Battle of Pelenor fields. Where was he during the initial raiding in the time of Eomund and Thorongil? We see his part in the battle of the Fords and Helm's Deep but not much else. I always got the feeling that he was a character Tolkien liked and meant to do more with but never did.
Thoughts?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

As far as Lord of the Rings goes, yes, Erkenbrand is a bit of an incomplete and distant character. UT however has quite a lot to say about him, as well as the military organistion of Rohan wholly.

This is what is says.

Marshal of the Mark was the highest military rank abd the title of the king's lieutenants (originally three), commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and trained Riders. The First Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale). He commanded the Riders of the Muster of Edoras, drawn from this ward, and from some parts of the West-mark and East-mark for which Edoras was the most convenient place of assembly. The Second and Third Marshals were assigned commands according to the needs of the time.

In the beginning of the year 3019 the threat from Saruman was the most urgent, and the Second Marshall, the King's son Theodred, had command over the West-mark with his base at Helm's Deep; abd the Third Marshal, the King's nephew Eomer, had as his his ward the East-mark with his base at his home, Aldburg in the Folde.

In the days of Theoden there was no man appointed to the office of First Marshal. He came to the throne as a young man at the age of thirty-two, vigorous and of martial spirit, and a great horseman. If war came he would himself command the muster of Edoras; but his kingdom was at peace for many years, and he rode with his knights and his Muster only on excercises and in displays; though the shadow of Mordor reawakened grew ever greater from his childhood into his old age. In this peace the Riders and other armed men of the garrison of Edoras were governed by an officer fo the rank of marshal (in the years 3012-19 this was Elfhelm). When Theoden became, as it seemed, prematurely old, this situation continued, and there was no effective central command: a state of affairs encouraged by his consellor Grima. The King, becoming decrepit and seldom leaving his hose, fell into the habit of issuing orders to Hama, Captain of his household, to Elfhelm and even to the Marshals of the Mark by the mouth of Grima Wormtongue. This was resented, but the orders were oveyed within Edoras. As far as fighting was concerned, when the war with Saruman began Theodred without orders assumed general comman. He summoned a muster of Edoras, and drew away a large part of the Riders, under Elfhelm, to strengthem the Muster of Westfold and help it to resist the invasion.

------

After the fall of Theodred command in the West-Mark (again without orders from Edoras) was assumed by Erkenbrand, Lord of Deeping-coomb and of much other land in Westfold. He had in youth been, as most lords, an officer in the King's Riders, but he was no longer. He was however the chief lord in the West-mark, and since its people were in peril it was his right and duty to gather all those among them able to bear arms to resist invasion. He thus took command also of the Riders of the Western Muster; but Elfhelm remained in independent command of the Riders of the Muster of Edoras that Theodred had summoned to his assistance.
Eomer, the Marshal of the West-mark, was of course at this time in Edoras and patrolling the East -- soon to lead, with Theoden, the Muster of Westfold and of the remaining knights of the King's Lands to reinforce the men at the Fords.

It is recorded that after Theoden's funeral, when eomer reordered his realm, Erkendbrand was made Marshal of the West-mark, and Elfhelm Marshal of the East-mark, and these titles were maintained, instead of Second and Third Marshal, neither having precedance over the other. In time of war a special appointment was made to the office of Underking: its holder either ruled the realm in the King's abscence with the army, or took command in the field if the King for and reason remained at home... The holerder was naturally heir to the throne.
That's what Erkenbrand was, anyway, if it answers your question.

The skirmishes around Rohan seem at this time to be mainly with Dunland, as described in UT also. Attacks were made, in the time of Deor, on the guard of the Fords in order to distract attention from northward; in Isengard, the Dunlendings had unbeknownst to the Rohirrim siezed control and were admitting a stream of Dunlendings in to Northern Rohan. Deor put a stop to the Dunland settlers when he realised what was happening, but Orthanc was unable to be taken -- no help from Gondor came either, as they were pressed at that time by the Corsairs I believe -- and the Dunledings had to be starved out.

Afterwards, I would guess, the skirmished with Dunland continued along the border. Saruman however held Isengard securely. Orcs from Dol Guldor began to maraud soon after Angrenost was reclaimed, and after this there was the war with Saruman. Hmmm... the previous long war with Dunland was interesting as well, detailed in UT (pretty comprehensive of this period really), when Rohan was nearly vanquished.

[Tar Elenion]

Rumil wrote:
"In HoME 8 (for what its worth) the forces of Rohan are described as 10,000 cavalry and 10,000 infantry, made up of swordsmen, bowmen and light troops from the Dales, some mounted on ponies."

Could you give a page reference for this please? It will assist with some research I am doing, and I can't seem to find this reference in HoME 8.

[Dimaldaeon]

Gwaihir the Windlord 20,000 men isn't much...
Actually until the musket became the main weapon of armies 20,000 men was a finr and regular amount for an army of a country with a population of probably about 1 million. Remember 20,000 Romans conquered Britain from Dover to Edinburgh and Julius Agricola believed that 5,000 legionaries and 3-4,000 auxiliaries would have been enough to conquer Ireland at the time. Rohan could be compared to England in the early 11th century and then Harold Godwinson would have raised an army of little over 10,000 then.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Actually, you are correct. 20,000 is a pretty reasonable regular army size.

However a population, as you preject, of 1 million people would mean 500,000 males; if a quarter of thesemales were of suitable fighting age, then the figure of possible soldiers is 125,000. (I may be being slighty generous, or tight, here -- I don't know what the actual percentage of fighting-age men would actually be -- but for the purposes of this post I will use a quarter smilies/smile.gif.)

Say half of these men are able to be (in a full mobilisation of the country's war machine) called up for service in the army, probably in its entirety over a period of at least several months, we have 62,500 that are able to raised to fight. (And this doesn't include the women, if we were to take Eowyn as an average example smilies/smile.gif.)

(Ignore that last bit.)

This is just the reasoning I have used, don't know whether it would be viable or not... but although I realise 20,000 is a decent normal army size, I would have thought that in dire circumstances more could be found to fight.

I was probably being rather unrealistic at first, but I stand partially corrected and have edited myself. What do you think?

[Dimaldaeon]

20,000 is the standing army trained,equipped and ready for battle. If Theoden had called for every male of correct age and ability he could certainly have collected more.

[FingolfintheBold]

FDor one thing, while 20,000 would be an averageish size for such an army in the real world, ME is quite different. Armies throughout ME's history are smaller than what we are used to hearing of. Only 6,000 men rode to the Black Gate, and Sauron's force of 60,000 is described as being gigantic. All the muster of Gondolin was only 10,000, the Battle of Helm's Deep 2,000-3,000, Saruman's Uruk army 10,000.

SAo a force of 20,000 on Rohan's part would be an above average force. of course, all those soldiers could hardly be brought together to fight in border skirmishes. It would have been exceptionaly foolish and unconventional for Rohan to take all the soldiers of its rule and send them on to fight pillagers. Later in the Battle of Isen and such, more soldiers could certainly have been used, but were likely sent away or delayed by Wormtounge.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

20,000 is the standing army trained,equipped and ready for battle. If Theoden had called for every male of correct age and ability he could certainly have collected more.
Yes, in a 'full mobilisation' as I said. =]

The armies of Middle-Earth were indeed quite small, something I've always noticed as well... even countries like Gondor, tough countries who relied heavily on their military strength to survive (any country can only exist as long as it can maintain itself military; in Gondor's case, they had to do this constantly), seem to have had relatively smaller numbers of fighting men.

Clearly, as Gondor was quite a militarised country as we know, its army would not have been small relative to its size. Actual populations in Middle-Earth must have been small as well, then -- as they were indeed in the Middle-Ages. William the Conquerer defeated Harold with an estimated 8,000 men -- Harold had a thousand or so less -- and for that number, he spent a long time recruiting around France, Denmark and even Italy.

We are talking about a Medievalish sort of society, after all, so I would probably guess that the sort of troop numbers and populations would be similar to those of a period perhaps rather later than 1066; 8,000 is a pretty small army, considering the length of the time of its preparation, even by Middle-Earth standards (although obviously not by the standards of 1066).

Then again, though, there were instances where army sizes were said to be very great, greater considerably than has ever been common in our world.

And his host had grown great, so great that the plain of Anfauglith could not contain it...

Morgoth's Orcs must have increased in number exponentially after the Nirnaeth. Anfauglith was a damn large piece of land. His army must have counted in the millions; the Valinorin army that defeated it would have been very sizeable as well.

(Valinor is one place I would expect there to be a lot of people, by the way; the Eldar could have children as much as they desired to do so, in a sheltered land where no-one ever died or failed to prosper, and after thousands of years of this stableness a large population would have been built up. Elves don't reproduce to the same extent as we do, but nonetheless.)

Sorry if this has veered horribly off-topic, but then try to take it all as a mere discussion on the army sizes of the Late Third Age if you like... smilies/smile.gif

[Dimaldaeon]

Instead of argueing with you Gwaihir i'm going to ask where did this 20,000 figure come from. I can't find it in Home 8 but in unfinished tales the army was 12,000 strong before Theoden and the population had risen during his lifetime. I seem to remember the figure 16,000 somewhere but i'm not sure.

As to the size of the army at Pelennor Fields Tolkien gives suggestions such as casulties against Saruman, the haste of the muster and the need to leave a force to defend the country as causing depletions to the army

Btw Fingolfinthebold where was Saurons army numbered at 60,000. The Persian empire could muster an army of at least 140,000 to invade Greece and it seems to me that Sauron would own a teensy bit more land than Darius.
Also the Captains of the West state (and complain) that the army going to the Morannon is small

[ September 01, 2003: Message edited by: Dimaldaeon ]

[Rumil]

Hi all,

just tracked down that HoME 8 reference, its at the bottom of p249 (in the paperback anyway).

The muster at Edoras is being reported by Aragorn to Theoden, he reports that somewhat short of 10,000 fully equipped and provisioned cavalry have arrived and doesn't expect many more. He also reports that a similar number of infantry and those on ponies have turned up. Also, under Erkenbrand, 300 good troops had been left at Helm's Deep with more 'stout yeomen of the Westfold'. It's worth remembering though,that this was an eary draft where volunteers from the Dunlendings and Woodmen had also come forward to serve under Theoden.

The 10,000 cavalry is confirmed in the LoTR where Theoden claims he could have sent 10,000 spears riding to Minas Tirith were it not for the other threats to his kingdom.

I agree that the population density in Middle Earth often appears to be very low, but I think 20,000 is a respectable enough figure for Rohan. After all, only 4 settlements are known in the entire country, Edoras, Dunharrow, Aldburg and Helm's Deep. Also, concerning the infantry, presumably there would not have been enough time for the majority of them to march in from outlying districts, so potentially there could have been many more that 10,000.

[ September 01, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[ September 01, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Tar Elenion]

Thaks Rumil, it is on page 249 in the cloth edition as well.
While 12000 and more horsed could have been raised (per UT) this was before the battles at Helm's Deep and the Fords of Isen.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Also, concerning the infantry, presumably there would not have been enough time for the majority of them to march in from outlying districts, so potentially there could have been many more that 10,000.
In a 'national call-up' situation, I perhaps (more on this further down), but this would have taken quite a long time. The wars of the Rohirrim did not normally allow such time to be had.

On a call-up, though. I would guess that cavalry warriors could be found from among the populace quite as well as could foot-men. The country has horses abounding, quite possibily (even probably) enough for one apiece; and they are said to as a people love fighting on horseback considerably more than on foot.

Most if not all men of Rohan would have been familiar with riding. Obviously there is the problem of training, but I would have thought that as many horsemen could be gathered from Rohan as footmen, and therefore it is possible that more than 10,000 infantry gained from a call-up (while only 10,000 cavalry) is improbable.

I should think that a considerable proportion of the eligable men of Rohan would have fought in the army at some point, or would have been willing to at a Muster -- which might well have gathered up about as many men in each Muster-area that it was possible to gather.

That in the reign of Eomer 'Men had peace who wished for it' seems to imply that they were forced to fight before; Rohan's population is quite possibly smaller than the million we have estimated it at.

(This may seem like rather a turn-around, but so be it. smilies/smile.gif)

[FingolfintheBold]

My referance as to an army of 60,000 is an estimation of the force that was at the Battle before the gate itself. Sauron certainly had many more soldiers throughout his land.

But in Return of the King, the Lords of the West mustered 7,000, 6,000 foot and 1,000 horsed.(see the last debate). They left men behind at various points, and came to the gate with 6,000 soldiers. Sauron's retribution is described as 10 times and more than 10 times the Lords of the West had.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Sauron's retribution is described as 10 times and more than 10 times the Lords of the West had.
Do you think you could explain this reference, Fingolfin? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean there.

[FingolfintheBold]

Sorry about that. I miss-typed a bit... Heres the quote for you, from King, 186.

"The men of the West were trapped, and soon, all about the grey mounds where they stood, forces ten times and more than ten times their match would ring them in a sea of foes."

The Lords of the West had 6,000 at the battle, and Sauron had more than ten times that. About 60,000-70,000, most likely.

[Iarhen]

I love your signature!

BUT my question is. It is said in the last stories in ROTK that Lorien stood the 3 attacs of Dol Guldur thanks to the courage of the elven people that lived there, but mostly to a great power that dwelled there.

Assuming its Galadriel powerboosted by Nenya, it is said in the UT that Lorien would stand against all attacks unless the Dark Lord himself were there and penetrated Lorien.

If the Ring had fallen in Saurons hands, instead that in Mount Doom, how long would have Lorien stood? I know that not long, since the power of Galadriel would be diminished by the lack of Nenyas boost over her (I assume that she would take it off!).

Would it be enough time for Celeborn and Galadriel to flee from Lorien towards the Grey Havens?

[Rumil]

Hello again,

been a busy couple of weeks, sorry for not continuing this thread before now.

We now move swiftly on to Aragorn's attack on Umbar...

and he came to Umbar unlooked for by night, and there burned a great part of the ships of the Corsairs

Sadly not much is recorded of this, doubly so as its the only naval operation of the time we are considering. Allegedly, Tolkien once wrote an account of the journeys of Aragorn but this is now lost - AAAARRRGH!!

In or just before 2980, Aragorn, under Ecthelion II's employ as Thorongil, managed to convince the steward to authorise an attack on the Corsairs of Umbar. The Corsairs had attacked Gondor many times before, and looked likely to do so again. This attack had been opposed by Denethor (Ecthelion's son) due to his jealousy of Thorongil's success.

Aragorn gathered a small fleet, attacked the Corsairs at anchor in the harbour of Umbar and overthrew the Captain of the Havens on the quay, burnt many ships and escaped with small loss.

It seems plain that this was a surprise attack, catching the Corsairs at unawares, presumably most of the ships' crews were not aboard. Aragorn's forces would have had to defeat whatever Corsairs were guarding the ships or were quartered nearby, during which engagement he slew the Captain of the Harbour. Then he would have had to send men to fire the Corsair ships while keeping any Corsair re-inforcements at bay, before making good his escape.

What of the forces? Frankly I have no idea of the numbers involved, though it would have to be between a couple of hundred and a few thousand per side. I wonder if the Gondorian fleet transported soldiers to use as marines, or whether only the ships' crews took part?

The Corsairs were composed of the 'King's Men' of the Second Age, the renagades of the 3rd Age Kinstrife and probably many of the local Haradrim, they used slaves to row their ships, I wonder if any were rescued? We know that the Corsairs had at least 50 great 'dromunds' and many smaller craft during the War of the Ring, though this was at least 38 years later, so they could have rebuilt the fleet by then. I've found two different historical types of dromund, one was a Byzantine war galley, the other a Baltic trading ship. I favour the war-galley as it 'fits' better with my image of the Corsairs. Any opinions from nautical types?

What we know nothing about is the Gondorian fleet, a few thousand years earlier they had used galleons, but the survival of this ship type so long appears unlikely. The main problem is that no Gondorian navy is ever mentioned in the War of the Ring. I wonder if Denethor had subsequently neglected (and cut funds from) the navy due to its association with Thorongil? Maybe Thorongil's fleet was made up of impressed merchant ships, though you'd imagine it would be a rather long voyage for the fishing boats of Ethir.

We also know practically nothing about Umbar. It obviously had a harbour, but was also constructed by the Numenoreans during their years of power in the Second Age. Therefore it was probably a very heavily fortified city (though it had been taken by Gondor a couple of times). I'd expect that the port would not have been well protected due to the lack of threat to the original builders from the sea. (A sort of reverse Singapore!)

Well, there you have it, Aragorn doing a Sir Francis Drake impersonation and 'singeing the Corsairs' beards'. Shame it wasn't done a few years before the War of the Ring, allowing the Corsairs no time for re-building!

PS. Iarhen, I'm sure that Nenya would have been a liability to Galadriel if Sauron had the One Ring (as in the Second Age). If she had a fast horse and didn't stay to protect her realm, I guess she could have escaped to the Havens!

[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Certainly an interesting battle, Rumil.

It is indeed the only naval battle encountered anywhere in Tolkien's mythos, I believe, the reason for this of course being that cannon were not yet in existence -- the weapons that would transfer warships from, primarily, troop-carriers into vessels more able to fight each other directly. Thus, as in pre-gunpowder times in our own world, battles in ME were usually fought between men personally and not between ships.

Sea battles did exist before cannon, though rarer and in a very different form. Ships would draw together and the men inside them fight, basically, which is what I'm guessing would have taken place here. It is imaginable that other tactics could also be attempted other than the usual (I believe) that one of attempting boarding; extremely heavy ships against lighter ones could try to ram, or use ballistae in place of artillery, perhaps! I've never heard of it, but it may have been done.

(I too would appreciate any information on this that anyone could add -- my knowledge of the era of cannon-bearing ships is good, but before that, I'm not totally sure about it.)

The battle itself can therefore probably be guessed. They draw in by night, come up beside the Corsair ships in harbour, and attack them. The pre-powder way to destroy ships is presumably to burn them, so with the aid of oil or tar or something they would have been able to set light to many. Large Corsair war-galleons would have withstood the running-over or ramming tactic, but maybe a few of the smaller ones were sunk in this manner.

A quick firing of the local port area, and then a speedy withdrawal back to Pelargir leaving the place in turmoil, would probably have followed.

But Thorongil's fleet -- what ships, indeed? We don't know, although Gondor certainly had a large navy in the past (and the Numenorean kingdom was of course a maritime nation in origin). It may well be that Gondor had a navy in the late Third Age; but remembering the lesser function of navies in pre-cannon times, the apparent inaction of any Gondorian navy in the War of the Ring may be due to the fact that it wasn't really possible. Could these ships have actually done anything? Blockade Anduin, perhaps, which would slow down the Corsairs, but not Umbar. The huge-scale blockade of French ports, staged by the Royal Navy in the Napoleonic wars, was extremely effective but under a different circumstance, as again, these ships were equipped with guns and would have actually fired on French ships if they ever attempted to leave. A blockade on Umbar would have been an ill-fated venture, as Umbarin ships could mass, break out and mob the Gondorian ships, boarding and battering down the defenders of the restraining fleet, or simply sailing past them. Gondor could not have kept up such a blockade. Umbar had overwhelming ship resources.

They could perhaps have stationed themselves off the coast, and then attacked individual Corsair ships as they sailed to Pelargir, but either way it is not really a matter of much surprise that they were inactive (if a navy existed). Attention was on the main land army of Mordor, the defence of Minas Tirith, and remembering the chaos that was happening at this time -- most efforts were bent on the Mordor frontier -- the matter of the navy, which could have been grounded by Denethor as you say (although I feel this to be unlikely. Denethor was jealous of Aragorn, but until the Palantir turned him insane he was not this kind of fool) or neglected in the face of other concerns.

I should say that some ships did exist in the Steward's service, stationed at Pelargir, in the time of Ecthelion II. Gondor was, at this time, still in good order and was not immediately on the spot it had been burning under, for years, by 3020; the navy would perhaps not have yet been neglected. Of course, we don't know much at all for sure. Not much information on this one, unlike the Fords of Isen.

[FingolfintheBold]

On the sublect of pre-cannon naval warfare, I'm sure i don't know that much more than you, but i do know some. For one thing, blockades were administered and effective before cannon, and were deployed by the Persians, Greeks and Romans. Ships in such naval battles were often equipped with sharp bronze or iron keels with which to ram and crack holes in the opposition. Even smaller ships with such weapons could do great damage, especially if they were fast enough to avoid ramming and still dish it out. And though the bulk of a naval battle was "corraling" with faster ships and then pouring on a raiding party, there certainly was some ballistic weaponry. Catching fire to an enemy ship was the best bet, and ships were often equipped with methods of launching or dumping flaming tar and pitch onto a vessel. Flaming arrows were also popular, as more of an anti-personnel attack rather than to ignite an enemy vessel.

But as for combustibles, we have to look at it from a ME point of veiw. For one thing, ships in ME are nearly always discribed with sails, which early Persian/Greek warships did not employ because of their vulnerability. A ME warship with a vast sail would be much easier to set on fire by raining flaming arrows into the sails, ropework, etc.

As far as the actual numbers in such a battle bettween Aragorn and the Corsairs(Arrrr, matey!) i imagine the Corsairs had a far more ships, as Gondor's navy in this time was likely just enough to gaurd fishing and coastal villages. Aragorn probably took what ships he could in haste, attacked swiftly by night, burning and destroying the enemies and their ships at harbour. I dont think of this as much as a naval battle as a battle involving ships. Aragorn probably never met the Corsairs upon the high seas, at least not in this battle.

[Rumil]

Hail and well met again F and G,

I'd agree with you that this engagement was not really a ship to ship action. However I'd contend that if there was a Gondorian navy at the time of the War of the Ring it could have at least put up a fight against the Corsairs.

The Corsair dromunds appear to be similar to the Mediterranean galleys of ancient times, can we assume that Gondorian ships would be similar? They could be powered by both sails and oars, but the sail was not of a very effective design so they needed the oarsmen to move up-wind. They would also have furled the sails before combat, to avoid the fire hazard. Ships with rams would attempt to destroy the oars of the opposition, or even pierce their hulls. The damaged ships would then be 'ganged up on' later and taken by foot soldiers. The Romans invented the 'corvus' which was a big gangplank with a spike on it to allow their marines to board enemy ships.

The Byzantines also used 'Greek fire' which was an early version of the flamethrower (though possibly nearly as dangerous to the Byzantine ship as to its enemy!).

Surely Gondor's ships should have tried to defend the mouth (or mouths) of the Anduin? Perhaps there was a naval battle that the hobbits forgot to record (after all they associated the sea with death), or could the Gondorian fleet have performed so poorly that the fiasco was covered up after the war?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I don't think the Gondorian fleet would have engaged the Corsairs during the War of the Ring. Think Beregond's words, about a short hand, which can only strike(but strike heavily, yes) when the enemy is in range. Gondor was fighting a defensive war, so they would only engage the ships once they reach land.

And about Thorongil's assault on Umbar, I was thinking more of a Navy Seal-type operation: small vessel to land on enemy harbour, then do as much havoc as they can; burn the ships, kill the sailors, etc. But since Umbar is quite far from the Ethir(and from Pelargir, which I would assume will be their staging area, but I could be wrong) maybe they had help from bigger ships, which would deploy the smaller vessels a considerable distance from the target, and would be the rendezvous point of the returning vessels.

->The Son of Finrod

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Interesting, thanks for that info. All sounds like very, very inneficient forms of fighting, nonetheless. Am I right in assuming that the boarding method was still the tactic most commonly employed in ancient sea-battles?

Still, Aragorn's strike on the Corsairs remains a raid and not a full sea-battle as has been said. It might clarify matters somewhat if someone was to print the information that we have, of Appendix A to LotR, here;

Thorongil often counselled Ecthelion that the strength of the rebels in Umbar was a great peril to Gondor, and a threat to the fiefs of the South that would prove deadly, if ever Sauron moved to open war. At last he got leave of the Steward and gathered a small fleet, and he came to Umbar unlooked-for by night, and there burned a great part of the ships of the Corsairs. He himself overthrew the Captain of the Haven in battle upon the quays, and then he withdrew his fleet with small loss. But when they came back to Pelargir...

(Came back to Pelargir... of course, Gondor's old naval base. Some proof that Gondor did have a navy, perhaps, and that this was it?)

In the attack on Umbar, lit pitch/Greek fire-type chemicals would presumably have been how the Corsair boats were fired (fire-hulks, always an effective tactic right up until the end of the era of timber warships, could have been used; but one imagines the great light and burning giving the raiders away if they did come 'unlooked-for'). Gondor was overwhelmingly out-navied by Umbar (at this stage); the business of ramming the ships, which at any rate would highly endager your own ships if fire was involved, would have taken a lot longer and given time for the Corsairs to counterattack a bit more. Again, a highly difficult and not-very-effective method of taking down the Corsair ships, especially the more gargantuious of them, and particularly as they were in harbour.

That there was 'fighting on the quays' suggests that the raiders landed and set light to ships from the landing bays, rather than by flinging burning missiles at them (sounds like quite a stupid idea :/) from their own boats.

If they fought on the quay, Felagund, then they probably did user smaller landing boats to get them and their weapons there. Umbar was a very large natural harbour, though. Perhaps small fire ships could have been used; little boats, filled with pitch and set alight and towards the Corsairs once they were inside. But I certainly imagine the destruction happening by first boarding, then burning boats, from the docking platforms.

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But that's what I said! I'm sorry if my words are misunderstood, but that's my point: small, sleek, lightning-quick strike at the harbor. Those larger vessel were just for the purpose of...well, much like an aircraft carrier. They carry the planes, the supplies; but the planes do the actual attack. Same here. Those small boats couldn't carry enough supplies for a cross-bay strike. So they use big ships as mobile bases/supply ship.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmm, not really. It's no big deal that ships have always used landing-boats, dinghies etc, when they wish to send men in to shore. Or to harbour quickly.

[Finwe]

The raiders would have had to exit their ships and relocate the main battle to the quays because they couldn't fire the Corsairs' ships from their own ships. Granted, they must have been a lot more maneuverable, but with that maneuverability comes a loss. They weren't heavy enough to fire catapults or trebuchets from, and that was pretty much the only way they would have been able to set fire to the Corsairs' ships from sea. Unless, of course, they had hundreds of archers shooting flaming arrows faster than the Corsairs could put the fires out. That could have also worked, but they would have needed hundreds, perhaps even thousands, to effectively take all of the Corsair ships out of action.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Hey! What's happened to this thread? Can we jump-start it? I was beginning to like discussing medieval-style battles!(considering that once I only read wars from the US Civil War onwards)
So...anyone?

Wala lang!
->The True Son of Finrod

[ October 06, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Wait for Rumil, as always... actually, he'll be back to start on the occupation of Moria soon. Consolidating his material or something, I think.

Anyway, look out for it.

[Rumil]

Hello all,

Please accept the usual apologies for my tardiness, RealLife(TM) intrudes once again!

Well, we move on from the sunny shores of Near Harad to the darkened caverns of Khazad-Dum, specifically Balin's attempt to re-conquer Moria.

We cannot get out, the end comes, drums, drums in the deep, they are coming...

Balin was a senior dwarf of the line of Durin and had gained fame, glory and plenty of good hard cash as part of the expedition to Erebor. After rebuilding Erebor, there was a desire amongst many dwarves to re-take Moria, their ancient stronghold. Balin was persuaded to lead this 'party' and eventually got Dain (unwillingly) to authorise an attempt. For Balin's posssible motives (including mithril, the last dwarven ring, good old fashioned adventurousness etc.) see here
Balin 1 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002797)
Balin 2 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002854)

Balin took Ori and Oin and 'many folk' from Erebor, including Floi, Frar, Loni and Nali. The number of dwarves is a matter for speculation, I'd guess some hundreds, perhaps 500. I also wonder if any female dwarves came along, after all it would have been difficult to start a colony without them? Their route would probably have taken them down the Old Forest Road, across the Anduin, then skirting Lothlorien into Dimrill Dale and past Kheled-Zaram to the gates of Moria.

There seem to have been two major periods of fighting, though probably interspersed by plenty of minor skirmishes.

The first battle occurred in 2989 when Balin's dwarves assaulted Moria. The book of records states that they drew out the orcs from the Great Gate (still standing at this time) and guardroom and slew many in the bright sunlight in the Dale. I think that some cunning stratagem must have been used to 'draw out' the orcs, perhaps some dwarves went up to the gates as 'bait', antagonised the orcs, who pursued and then were then ambushed by the main body of dwarves. No doubt there's scope for Fanfic here! The orcs were at a great disadvantage in the sunshine and were faced with some extremely hyped-up dwarves - Khazad ai menu indeed! Dwarven casualties included Floi, killed by an arrow.

The number of orcs involved is impossible to say, though Tolkien did note that Moria was fairly sparsely inhabited at this time, also orcish numbers had been reduced by the Battle of the Five Armies, some 48 years previously. I'd guess perhaps some hundreds of orcs were involved, with some hundereds or thousands more lurking within the caverns. Moria orcs are noted as using spears, scimitars and bows and were physically smaller than Mordor orcs. The dwarves used axes, swords and bows, possibly mattocks too, they would likely have been far better armoured in dwarven mail than their opponents.

The next phase would have been to destroy any remaining orcs around Moria. It was a vast and intricate place, so this could have gone on for years, with parties of dwarves tracking down small groups of orcs.

Meanwhile, Balin was set up as Lord of Moria, with the 21st Hall of the North End and the Chamber of Mazarbul as his base. Finding the chamber may have been desirable in order to look for old maps of Moria, which would have been very useful to the dwarves. The good news was sent back to Dain, gold and mithril was found and all seemed well. Intriguingly, Durin's Axe is mentioned. Had they indeed found the axe of their great kings? I'm sure it would have been a very powerful object.

By the fifth year of occupation, Balin felt secure enough to send an expedition under Oin to seek the upper armories of the third deep and to proceed west to Hollin Gate. However, his confidence was misplaced. Balin son of Fundin was killed by an orcish force coming up the Silverlode from the east. This force must surely have come from Dol Guldur, now re-occupied by the servants of Sauron, but may have included orcs from other dens in the Misty Mountains. It must have seriously outnumbered the dwarves.

This 'second battle' in 2994 was more of a siege. The orcish vanguard slew Balin while he was unaware, the dwarves took revenge but soon it was apparent that they must retreat into Moria and bar the Great Gates. Eventually the orcs broke through the gates. Perhaps they had Trolls and battering rams with them or Sauron sent explosive charges. Conceivably they could have been led by one or more of the Nazgul.

By this time it had been learnt that Oin had been killed by the Watcher in the Water and the lake at Hollin gate was impassable.

The orcs (surely including the 'black uruks of Mordor' mentioned in LoTR) eventually took the bridge of Khazad Dum and the second hall. The bridge appears almost impregnable, but maybe the orcs simply lined up enough archers to shoot down any dwarves attempting to defend the bridge, or maybe the dwarves were running low on supplies. By this time Frar, Loni and Nali (presumably dwarven leaders) were dead.

Eventually the last stand, probably led by Ori, was made in the Chamber of Mazarbul, but there was no escape for the dwarves..... we cannot get out.......they are coming!

One major point not mentioned at all in the Book of Records is what Durin's Bane (ie the Balrog) was doing during this time. Could he simply not be bothered by a few pesky dwarves, or perhaps did he appear for the final assault and 'encourage' the orcish invaders? It is interesting that the assault only occurred after mithril had been found. Perhaps the dwarves had 'delved too deeply' once again.

I also find it strange that Dain hadn't bothered to find out what had happened in Moria in the nearly 30 years before the Coucil of Elrond. Was he really that annoyed with Balin, or did messengers simply not return?

[ October 06, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[ October 06, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've got a few questions for that. Where orcs sent to the West Gate? Why? If not, then why did they go there?

Wala lang!
->The True Son of Finrod

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

No wonder it took you so long, Rumil; you've been doing your research pretty well I should say. smilies/smile.gif Only one or two points for discussion in that.

Nilpaurion, I don't believe Orcs were sent to the West-Gate, unless you mean that they sent forces down there from inside, to sweep the area after the stand in Mazarbul. The Watcher in the Water held that entrance so that neither Orc nor Dwarf could have passed -- unless, being plainly some vile primeval creature of Melkor's, it recognised the Orcs and let them pass. But if that was the case, then the entrance was still barred to the Dwarves and didn't need to be guarded.

As far as I know, the attacking army came from the East as Rumil points out.

Actually, there is an interesting point here. When the Company themselves were assailed in the Chamber of Mazarbul, the door they had came through from the West was blocked. So was another door, and the only one that was free led to the East entrance and the way that they took out. As they had not bumped into any armed legions of Orcs in the passageways, they must have come around from another chamber.

This would possibly be the passage that Gandalf said contained 'bad air', or the one that he had a bad feeling about;
'I so not like the feel of the middle way; and I do not like the smell of the left-hand way; there is foul air down there, or I am no guide.'
I say the bad air passage, because it led down, and the Orcs seem to have infested the lowest dungeons as well -- the signal that Pippin's stone awoke. In the attack on the Dwarves, we know that Orc armies came through the Hall of Khazad-Dum and the East end, and it is probable that they then divided (requiring knowledgable and pwoerful leadership; there may well have been Nazgul, although not, probably, the Witch-King himself) and came around from these tunnels to trap the Dwarves in the Chamber inescapably.

They seem to have fleed and tried to get out from the West-Gate, but couldn't because of the Watcher. Then they retreated back to the Mines, were met with more Orc-forces which decimated them, and eventually came to hold the Chamber of Mazarbul. There they were surrounded and massacred.

I also wonder if any female dwarves came with them?
Definitely, I should say. They'd be needed to start a colony, and at any rate, as they behaved very much like the men folk and were tought anyway, they would not have been a liability for the dwarves in their hard situation.

Did female dwarves fight in battles? I don't know, but it doesn't appear so. It may be that they like to hide themselves away and live quietly with their more numerous male counterparts, but either way, there doesn't seem to have been any reason why they wouldn't have come.

And where indeed was the Balrog? I have myself always imagined it coming at the last, when the Dwarves were trapped in the Chamber much as it did to the Company, although since they couldn't escape it would then have walked in and slaughtered them at its will.

Durin's Bane was the chief reason why Moria could not be recolonised. It does actually seem rather odd, here, to think that it was armies from Dol Guldor and not the Balrog that destroyed the Dwarven colony. Could he just have done nothing? Maybe, as you suggest, he couldn't be bothered stirring.

Perhaps he did not want to be discovered by Sauron? There seems to have been a reason for this, a reason why he did not seek Sauron out (who would probably have been known to him) and serve him directly. He must have wished to haunt Khazud-dum forever and not leave until the End; waiting for the return of his true master, most likely.

Interesting indeed!

[drigel]

I always thought that the Balrog was "unearthed" by the Dwarves who "delved too deep" for the mithril. Like he hid in a cavern at some deep point close to the vein of mithril, which is the only element unsullied by the evil of Morgoth, no?

[Finwe]

Couldn't the Balrog have "helped" hem the Dwarves into the Chamber of Mazarbul? From one side, they would have had the Watcher in the Water, from the second side, they would have had a horde of Orcs, and from the third side, the Balrog. That could have also effectively hemmed them into the Chamber.

My own little speculation: Could Ori have been the Dwarf skeleton holding the Book of Mazarbul, or is that just the movie?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Possibly, Finwe. But there's nothing to say any way.
I always thought that the Balrog was "unearthed" by the Dwarves who "delved too deep" for the mithril.
Yes, it was awoken by the Dwarves that had lived there in the time of Eregion -- not Balin's little group, who went to reclaim their ancient halls. (Check up on your ME history smilies/smile.gif)

[FingolfintheBold]

You guys seem to have already covered it quite extensively smilies/smile.gif

Just one thing: Is it possible that the Balrog had nothing to do with the dwarve's slaughter? After all, i would think that whoever was recording their final moments would have said something about the monsterous fire-shadow of death standing outside the door. Its possible they didnt know what it was, but that doesnt seem likely considering even Gimli, a young dwarf, had some knowledge of it. I think the balrog probably just hit the sleeper during the whole thing. After all, the dwarves certainly wouldnt be a threat to it, and the moria orcs didnt have the power to summon it forth as Sauron probably did.

[Finwe]

The Balrog could have paralyzed everyone with fear, or he could have charged in at the end, so that there wasn't enough to time jot down "And as we had our last cup of tea a great flaming monster came up out of the depths. Oh dear, I think we must run!" smilies/evil.gif

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Was he really that annoyed with Balin, or did messengers simply not return?


I think the messengers simply did not return, and Dain is can't afford to send more. After all, his kingdom is under diplomatic pressure from Sauron, which threatens to break out into all-out war. And...remember Dain's fear as he looked into the East Gate? (OK, I'm supposed to connect that to the topic, but I forgot what to add...)

Wala lang!
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarie the Vanyar

[Finwe]

I don't think Dain really believed in Balin's little "Questlet." Since he had looked into Moria, and seen the Balrog (although probably not face-to-face), he knew that there was no point in trying to set up a colony there again, because the Balrog (and Orcs) would just destroy it. He couldn't hold Balin back, so I guess he just let him go, and figured if he didn't come back, people wouldn't try leaving.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Why would Dain do that? Let Balin be killed?(well, technically, he didn't let Balin be killed, but he knew(more or less) what would happen, and just let them go?) He could use his kingly powers to stop him, and, if Balin still goes, he can say, "He's on his own now."

But then, why let Balin go to Moria?

Wala lang!
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarie the Vanyar

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Perhaps it was the popular thing to do. And once the messages had ceased, it would have been clear to the king what had happened; not much point wasting more men in sending them there.

[Rumil]

Hello all,
smilies/smile.gif
just a quick note on some points raised here,

Gwaihir, I like your idea about the orcs 'outflanking' the chamber of Mazarbul from underneath, sounds like an appropriately sneaky plan!

I've been wondering about the Balrog too. Perhaps it was not involved in the physical fighting but, having been roused (maybe by the 'new' mithril seekers?) engendered a feeling of terror in the surviving dwarves. Was that the reason for their swift defeat? I'm also impressed by the dwarves choosing to defend the tomb of their fallen lord, much like their 1st Age ancestors.

On the Dain-Balin thing, to speculate (wildly), the way I see it is that after Erebor was rebuilt and stabilised many dwarves (probably mostly the younger ones?) became dissatisfied and agitated for an attempt on Moria (I've got a strange image of young dwarves graffiti-ing Erebor with "FREE MORIA" !). Balin was probably persuaded to lead the 'adventure party' as they needed his prestige in order to carry out such a plan. Dain (as it turned out) knew better, but could he have sanctioned the attempt in order to 'get rid of' politically unruly elements within his kingdom? If they retook Moria, Dain would have asserted his sovereignty over them as king of the Longbeards, if they failed, then everyone would have said he was right all along!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Dain's motive is politics?

speculate (wildly)


Yes, very wild... ;) ...but considering the agitation the Moria-or-bust-ers are causing, might be considered. But why Balin? Is he a political enemy?

Wala lang!
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarië the Vanyar

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Not political, as such. Pressured is probably more like it. Surely you understand?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Yes, I know, but...

'get rid of' politically unruly elements within his kingdom

That involves even the slightest hint of politics...those agitators will surely find a way to go to Moria, whether sanctioned or not, or if Dain stops them, they might stage a coup. I know they wouldn't win (unless they're more than I think they are(reminds me of Matchbox 20...just a stray thought...)) but they could do damage to the kingdom. Now I know Dain's aim is not to quash dissidents, but to protect the kingdom, and the best way to do it is to preserve status quo, minus the unruly ones.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I suppose it would be a possibility, entertainably.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Hey! Has anyone a spare map of Moria around? *looks around, sees none* I thought so. Anyways...

After pondering about this for a while, I've got a few questions to ask...

~Did they make a last stand at Hollin gate?

I know it looks impossible, but...

The Watcher in the Water took Oin. We cannot get out. The end comes...


It looks like they were trapped in the West Gate, but how did the book get to Mazarbul? Am I contradicting myself here?

~Two colonies?

Yes, we have the main colony at Mazarbul, but...

Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...go westward...to Hollin

Ever since I've read and reread and re(to the nth power)read this part, a thought danced in my mind. Logically, there would be two headquarters/colonies. One at the East(Mazarbul) and at the West(somewhere near the West Gate). If it does exist, Oin must be its leader...but I've no concrete evidence of it. Feel free to bash it.

By the way, about the Balrog leading the assault thing, I see him playing the role not unlike the Witch-king's during the assault on Gondor. He lies behind, driving his forces mad, and bringing fear to the enemies. He will only fight personally when a superior enemy comes(Gandalf in both cases)

That's all for now!

Yours, if you want to :p
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarië the Vanyar

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Damn... well I've not got my books near. But I hadn't considered that, it seems about right. The last stand of the Dwarves was made in Mazarbul alright; who would carry the book there? And all the dead bones? Anyway, it is written on the pages.

But the West-end gate probably did have a dwelling that was overrun first, led by Oin. Destroyed by Orc armies issuing from the three tunnels, perhaps. Good thinking.

[Rumil]

Hi both,

as I see it, Ori's trip to the west (Hollin) gate was simply a small expedition sent to find out if there was still a way out, and presumably to find weaponry in the armouries of the 3rd deep. After Ori was killed by the Watcher and the lake was found to be impassable, I'd reckon the survivors headed back to Mazarbul where they reported their sad news to Oin and were caught up in the final stand.

[Rumil]

Right, deep breath time, now we move on to (the preliminary moves) of the War of the Ring. The first being the attack on Thranduil.

In February 3018 Aragorn captured Gollum in the Dead Marshes and took him to Thranduil's wood-elf kingdom in Northern Mirkwood, arriving on 21st of March. Meanwhile, Sauron had set spies on Gollum's trail, hoping for him to lead them to the ring. News (via Dol Guldur) reached Sauron by late April and he instructed Khamul (presumably) to attack Thranduil in order to capture or kill Gollum.

On or about 20th June, Gollum was being guarded by the elves in an isolated tree. Gollum refused to come down, and the elves had no desire to go and get him so they sat there late into the night.

It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us at unawares

Though they were driven off after a time they were many and fierce and the guards were taken or killed. Gollum escaped both sets of pursuers, making his way eventually to Moria. The elves pursued the orcish invaders but gave up the chase when they neared Dol Guldur.

The orcs were said to be many and fierce, but this was not an all-out invasion, so I'd imagine some hundreds were present, probably selected for this special mission from amongst the Uruk-Hai. They were, however, not used to the woods, perhaps they were from the reinforcements Sauron had sent to Dol Guldur when it was re-occupied with 'sevenfold' strength. Although Khamul would have had overall responsibility for the attack, I consider it unlikely that he was personally involved.

Of the elves, there would likely have been only a few guards, perhaps half a dozen, who were quickly overwhelmed. Someone must have raised an alarm, then reinforcements would have started to arrive. We know Thranduil had at least 2000 troops, probably more, but a full mobilisation was surely not necessary. I'd think the most useful troops in Mirkwood would have been the lightly armed elven bowmen, maybe led by Legolas.

I'd imagine that the orcs would have an elite snatch squad, with some blocking forces to slow down the pursuit.

I do wonder about a few things though. First, where was the territorial divide between the elves and the area controlled by Dol Guldur? Dol Guldur's power is said to have extended to the Old Forest Road, but the area upto the Forest River seems to have been a sort of no-mans land, inhabited by spiders etc but probably with elf patrols and parties occasionally. However, the Mountains of Mirkwood had an evil reputation, perhaps this was the orcs' base for the attack.

Secondly, I wonder how the orcs managed to take the elves by surprise, perhaps too much partying and fine Dorwinion vintages! Though maybe (to speculate!) the orcs had constructed a tunnel system (like the Viet Cong) in order to penetrate elven territory.

Legolas indicates that the rescue attempt was pre-arranged with Gollum, Sauron had many spies in Mirkwood, perhaps Crebain, bats or even the fabled black squirrels carried the messages.

I also wonder if the elves could use 'magic' against the invaders. In the Hobbit, Bilbo falls asleep immediately he steps into the elf ring, sounds like a D+D level 1 sleep spell to me!

smilies/wink.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Finwe]

I don't think there was a specific territorial divide between Dol Guldur and Mirkwood. At least we know there weren't any signs saying, "Welcome to Dol Guldur: Prepare to undergo everlasting torment for the rest of your pathetic life." smilies/biggrin.gif I think that the "border" of the land stretched as far as the Orcs or other evil creatures were willing to go, to harry travelers in that area, and perhaps even raid the Elves. I think Dol Guldur's main function was to act as a distraction and an annoyance for the Free Peoples, so that their full attention would not be fixed upon Sauron. Khamul would probably send forces out now and then, perhaps in league with Isengard, to perform specific "functions" or "missions."

About the surprise of the Elves, I don't think they were expecting an all-out attack. All they were prepared to deal with was Gollum's little hissy fits and arguments. The reason that the Orcs' ambush succeeded was that the Elven guards probably became used to the routine of "let random slimy Hobbit-creature up into the tree, let random slimy Hobbit-creature come down the tree, take random slimy Hobbit-creature back to the dungeon, and repeat." They were probably only lightly armed, and were definitely taken unawares by the (relatively) large number of Orcs in the ambush. I'm sure that once the fighting started, other Elves "sensed" the Orcs' presence, and supplied reinforcements to those guards. But, of course, it was too late, and Gollum had escaped.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

take random slimy Hobbit-creature back to the dungeon


Just a correction: Gollum was not imprisoned in a dungeon.

...and we had not the heart to keep him ever in the dungeons under the earth...

OK, back to topic. About the assault; Thranduil's kingdom is not far from the eastern eaves of Mirkwood, right? Maybe the assault came from the east...unlikely?

Yours, if you want to :p
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarië the Vanyar

[Finwe]

Where was he imprisoned then? In a random room?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Maybe in a random cage hung above a random tree?

[Maéglin]

smilies/smile.gif.. Probably a DUNGEON but he would be let out at times to climb trees for fresh air or whatever. Damn Legolas why does he have to be such a pansy and let Gollum loose. *Prepares to be mobbed by fangirls*

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Hello people!

*Warning: Pure Speculation Ahead.*

Forces from the Mountains of Mirkwood came to the lands between the Eastern eaves of Mirkwood and the River Running, where there is little watch(after all, it looks to Esgaroth) They were small enough not to be noticed, but strong enough to drive away Gollum's guard and capture the Slinker. 100 would be the maximum estimate.

They were organized as a lightly armed hit-and-run force(you would have to be light if you had any hope of escaping from the elves on their own turf...and some did escape) How they crossed the Forest River? Probably by boats(unless there's a ford there I haven't heard of)

Yours, if you want to :p
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarië the Vanyar

[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

[Rumil]

Hello again all,

many apologies about the non-continuation of this thread, but this was due to my ISPs cutting me off for reasons best known unto themselves. Happily its all sorted out now, so we proceed to the assault on Osgiliath.

This very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor and we were swept away.

Well then, on the 20th of June 3018, Sauron's forces launched an assault on the ruined city of Osgiliath. The one-time capitol city of Gondor had been fought over and devastated many times but in the youth of Denethor it had been re-occupied and a strength of arms kept there. The real prize in Osgiliath was the last bridge over the Anduin. This was not, however, a straightforward military action, as Sauron had an ulterior motive. The objective was to capture the bridge only briefly to allow the passage of the Nazgul. They were being sent to search for the ring, the finding of which had been revealed by Gollum. Rather oddly (I've always thought), the Nazgul were afraid of water, so required possession of the bridge.

Putting together information from Boromir, Beregond and UT, the battle seems to have gone something like this. It seems that the Gondorian forces were engaged on the Eastern side of Osgiliath by an army of orcs, Easterlings and Haradrim. They were heavily outnumbered, but only broke and ran when the Lord of the Nazgul revealed himself in all his terror. Horse and man gave way before him and the bridge was captured for a brief time. On taking the bridge, the Nazgul dismounted, disrobed and made their way through Osgiliath unseen, but terrifying the inhabitants.

Facing only 'conventional' forces, Boromir and Faramir rallied their troops and re-captured the bridge, but realised that it would have to be destroyed to protect Gondor. With one company they bravely held the Eastern end of the bridge while it was demolished behind them, then swam back across the Anduin. Of their company, only two others survived.

The forces involved aren't detailed, I'd imagine perhaps 1000 Gondorian infantry, with chainmail, armed with spears or bows, against some thousands of orcs with smaller contingents of Haradrim and Easterlings. Gondorian horsemen are noted, perhaps a squadron of cavalry was present, or maybe this refers to the officers' horses. Perhaps some of the Rangers of Ithilien were caught up in the battle as well. Six or seven of the Nazgul led the Sauronic forces.

As I said above, the Nazgul's fear of water is a strange reason for this battle, surely Sauron could have sent them directly to Dol Guldur over Dagorlad? Also they had to cross many other rivers before they reached the Shire.

Sauron's secondary motivation was to test the strength of Gondor. Perhaps he had hoped to secure the bridge intact to facilitate the passage of his great army the next year.
More on Nazgul and Water (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000899)

[ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Welcome back, Rumil!

Anyway, I need time to process the new information. I'll be back with a post before 36 hours expire.

Later days! :cool:
->banakil on mumakil

[pathfinder]

Not only were the forces of Mordor depending upon the bridge at Osgiliath, but they were probably counting on the black ships of the Umbar to tack their forces across to the western shore.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Pathfinder, welcome to the 'Downs! Enjoy decaying, the stinky aroma of unembalmed carcass, and the slow change of your skin to a gross, rough, slightly Mummy-like complexion...OK, stop.

Anyway...

Perhaps he had hoped to secure the bridge intact to facilitate the passage of his great army the next year...


...or gain a foothold on the shores of the Great River to build his amphibious assault force.

What I remember about this assault on Osgiliath is...*drumroll*...Saving Private Ryan. Hitler values bridgeheads to Normandy like pure gold, just like Sauron did. The 101st Airborne troops defending the bridge blow it up when they are pushed to the brink, just like what the Gondorians did.

Well, except the P-51s, the Tigers, the Panthers..oh, well. You get me.

Later days! :cool:
->banakil on mumakil

[Finwe]

As I said above, the Nazgul's fear of water is a strange reason for this battle, surely Sauron could have sent them directly to Dol Guldur over Dagorlad? Also they had to cross many other rivers before they reached the Shire.


Rumil, I believe that the Nazgul were needed elsewhere, and thus, couldn't all be sent to Dol Guldur. Even though the Nazgul had a fear of water, I think that they could ford a river if they absolutely had to. At the Ford of Bruinen, a few of them began crossing the river right before the flood came and wiped them away. They were probably afraid of rivers in full flood, not of fords, which had a relatively small amount of water.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sure, no one may fear a trickilng stream(except the ones full of parasites... http://www.geocities.com/louis_martian/smilies/evil.gif ) but the Nazgul(except the Witch-King) fear water for its inhibiting property.

..but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement...

(UT, Part Three, The Hunt for the Ring)


It's like an allergy. Would you drink milk if you knew you'd puff up as big as an oliphaunt?

But I agree on this part:

Even though the Nazgul had a fear of water, I think that they could ford a river if they absolutely had to.


Sauron's will rules supreme over their pet peeves(or allergies). And what
Sauron wanted is his Ring, found on a place called the Shire. If they had to cross a river for that, then, they'll have to.

Later days! :cool:
->Elenrod

[Numenorean]

Hey Rumil and everyone,
Its good to see the thread up and running again.
Saurons motives for this clash seem more complex than I previously thought.
Firstly the Nazgul had to cross the Anduin, nice quote Nilpaurion about rivers being a barrier to the Wraiths, in UT p.344 it then goes on to say that "the Nazgul would not touch the 'Elvish' waters of the Baranduin".(I wonder if any residue of Ulmos power also helps to spook the Nazgul when they approach running water?)
Secondly, the action at Osgiliath definately helped to distract the Wise from the Gollum rescue caper too, two attacks by Saurons forces at the same time in vastly separate regions is a cunning way to feint and cloak his true intentions from the Wise.
Thirdly, the unveiling of Angmar and his brethren upon the Gondorians:
On taking the bridge, the Nazgul dismounted, disrobed and made their way through Osgiliath unseen, but terrifying the inhabitants.This is a definate Psychops tactic to unnerve and dishearten Gondors military and populace, "the terror of their passing was so great that many folk fled from the land, and went wildly away north and west" UTp.339 But the appearance of the Nazgul was percieved, by the Gondorians at any rate, as the vanguard of open war, their true primary mission however was always to find the Ring, a strategy of upmost secrecy and importance in Saurons thoughts.
In UT p.338 perhaps another more subtle motive is also touched upon for the Osgiliath action:
Thus Sauron tested the strength and preparedness of Denethor
Given that Sauron had been trying to break Denethors spirit through the Palantir for some time preceeding this clash, he probably expected to meet low morale and limited resistance, making immediate all-out invasion at least a possibility in Saurons mind. It is therefore a credit to Denethor and Gondors valour (and a blessing for free-folk everywhere) that Sauron 'found them more than he had hoped' and thus they managed to take out the bridge (unsure how they did this though?) and buy some crucial time to reset their border defence tactics.

[Finwe]

Quite true. But then, Sauron has a history of underestimating his enemies. Most Dark Lords or evil heads of governments end up doing that, and it results in their ultimate downfall. Sauron knew that Gondor would try to fight back, he just didn't know the full measure of its strength. He really didn't give Men the credit that they deserved, since he probably realized that Isildur had claimed the Ring for his own (weakling! smilies/mad.gif ) without destroying it. He hadn't counted on the resistance of Boromir, Faramir, and the Rangers of Ithilien (the first assault) and Faramir and the Rangers (the second assault). He thought that Denethor held full sway over Gondor, and thus, didn't bring Faramir and his loyal men into the reckoning. Perhaps that underestimation gave the Gondorians a bit of an advantage.

[Rumil]

Hello again,

good points on the Nazgul and their aquaphobia. I'd also agree that this battle was instigated partially to test the defences and preparedness of Gondor.

The point has been raised in a different thread that Sauron's grasp of strategy sems to be rather weak. The smart thing to have done in the War of the Ring would have been to concentrate all available forces against Gondor and Rohan. After all, due to the distances involve and general lack of communication, its unlikely that the elves of Lothlorien, or the Lakemen, for example, could have come to Gondor's aid. Sauron seems to suffer from trying to emulate his ex-boss!

On bridges and fords, as many have pointed out, bridges have been viewed as valuable throughout military history, not only for practical reasons, but as symbols of military success. Eventually Sauron's forces had to build rafts and boats and a pontoon bridge to carry them across the Anduin. The Corsairs did not travel so far upriver.

I've noticed, however, that 'fords of Osgiliath' are mentioned in RoTK. Seems like a bit of an effort to go to if you can just wade across the ford, while the Nazgul, by this time, could fly across. Perhaps bridges were necessary to move the heavy equipment such as Grond and the artillery across.

[The Saucepan Man]

The point has been raised in a different thread that Sauron's grasp of strategy sems to be rather weak. The smart thing to have done in the War of the Ring would have been to concentrate all available forces against Gondor and Rohan. After all, due to the distances involve and general lack of communication, its unlikely that the elves of Lothlorien, or the Lakemen, for example, could have come to Gondor's aid. Sauron seems to suffer from trying to emulate his ex-boss!

I would disagree with this, Rumil. He had more than sufficient forces at his disposal. He struck at Minas Tirith too soon, but could not have foreseen the events that led to his forces' defeat at the Pelennor. But, even with this set-back, he would easliy have vanquished the force at the Black Gate had it not been for events on Orodruin. Given his overwhelming strength in force, it made perfect sense to strike at Lothlorien and (via Erebor and the northern passes) Rivendell. They would have been great prizes indeed. Their capture would have demoralised the remaining forces of the Free Peoples and ensured that the Elves were taken out of the picture (either by their elimination or by their retreat to the West).

Sauron's failure was in underestimating the forces deployed against him (especially the smallest among them smilies/wink.gif ), not in military startegy or the deployment of his own forces.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Don't they sort of go together, Saucepans? You generally deploy your forces according to your estimate of the strength of whoever you're going to attack.

But Sauron did do a good job with his vast armies, or would have done, in the sense that they would have conquered Middle-Earth had the Ring not been destroyed. The Free Peoples could fend off his first couple of attacks but not much more.

That's the whole point, isn't it?

[Iarhen]

Are we gonna move on to the next battle or what???? smilies/wink.gif

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Wait for Rumil. He'll be here with new material.

[Dain]

I wish I'd found this thread sooner, so I'll just have to put in a couple of quick thoughts on a few things.

Going back to Dol Guldur, I never thought of it as a fortress a la Barad Dur or Minas Morgul, but just a creepy tower in the woods (Orthanc-like, I guess). I don't think Sauron really surrounded himself with an army of orcs in his "Necromancer" guise (the debate on what Necromancer meant is in a thread somewhere, I remember). I always thought of it as the classic evil wizard's tower, in the middle of a scary forest, where nobody in their right minds would bother it. I always thought the White Council just came, pretty much by themselves, and used their combined "power" (magic) to make drive Sauron out (his spirit would then slip away--wouldn't need to ride or run, because it's a spirit). I see the wizards, etc, approaching with staves upraised and whatever nasty creatures Sauron has around him, and Sauron himself, just abandoning the dark tower in fear. I don't think there would be much resistence or any conventional battle, but that's just how I saw it.

In general, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions between Tolkien's mythology-based battle accounts and military history. Orcs certainly didn't know Spanish squares, to start with. smilies/wink.gif Tactics in Tolkien are confined to charges and heroic actions. A comparable era would be anglo-saxon, dark ages england, with shield walls and not much more organization beyond, "kings bodyguard around the king, the rest of you lot, spread out and look mean." Armies didn't get all that organized until the late 15th C anyway, really. In this kind of legendary battle, the presence of a king at the front would mean a hero who would hold back the enemy with his incredible valour (not that Kings didn't fight from the front even in the 15th C), so as well as inspiring his troops, his mere presence would frighten the enemy. There's a completely different set of "rules" that apply here...

Think about the Battle of Five Armies. Thorin and co.'s charge from the gate; 12 Dwarves forcing the Orcs to recoil? Damn straight, because this is fantasy, not reality. Eagle's causing terror, panic and disruption to orc ranks? Yep, and throwing them off cliffs, too. One giant bear winning the whole battle? Absolutely. Tactical organization? Not really.

But that's just what I think. I wouldn't want to stop any of you from having some fun with it! Maybe I took the easy way out because my military history is a bit rusty at this point... smilies/wink.gif

[Dain]

Why do I never realise when there's more than one page! LOL! Sorry about my massively out-of-date post, there.

You guys have a great project going. I can't help making few comments...

About FingofintheBold's post, Sept 4th: 10*10*6,000=600,000 (ten times more than ten times their match) not 60,000 . That's a lot of orcs... smilies/wink.gif

About Moria: I don't think Balin's men provoked the Balrog, because it seems to operate separately from the orcs, who I think just gathered (to the beat of drums in the deep!) for a while, and eventually wore down the out-numbered forces of the Dwarves. I don't think Dain was every really mad at Balin, either, he just couldn't afford to give his expedition more support--Balin knew that he was out on a limb, too, I'm sure. The Balrog was drawn to the presence of the ring and Gandalf, maybe--something more worth his attention!

As for the orcs ambushing Gollum's guards: I always figured it was a small raiding party that got lucky. Did they actually capture Gollum or just allow him to get away? I'll have to read up on that...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:58 AM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[Rumil]

Hi all and welcome to Dain!

As is obvious, I've managed to do very little on this thread in the past month or two, apologies for that, but work, a trip to Italy, the flu and Christmas have all conspired to keep me off the Downs. I expect to be offline well into January too.

In the meantime, please feel free to discuss whatever interests you on the 'Battles' subject. I plan to return sometime in the New Year with the first Battle of the Fords of the Isen, so if anyone has interesting points of view on the Rohirrim and Ssruman's forces, please post them!

Have a Happy Yule!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've decided on preemptive self-defense(a great word from last year... :rolleyes: ) and post this before Rumil's wonderful in-depth look on...The First Battle of the Fords of Isen.

Because of Saruman's position, a double envelopment of the Fords of the Fords could be achieved with ease. The problem of his assault was improper disposition of his massive resources. For once the Fords are captured, it would have been impossible for the Navy-less Rohirrim to send reinforcements for the western garrison. Thus, the western army would be safe from any flank or rear attack.

The eastern army is another story. Since it is inside the boundary of Rohan, a force could be sent against it from anywhere, except along the line of the river. If the Rohirrim mustered enough force, they could encircle the troops sent on the east shore(by the forces from the Fords and the newcomers), then destroy the western division with an overwhelming concentration of men.

Had Saruman properly disposed of his forces(with a larger eastern army), he could have repelled Elfhelm's charge, or at least held it off long enough to destroy Théodred's beleaguered men at the Fords.

Later days!
->Elenrod

[Rumil]

Hi all,

as you can see by my last post, its been a while since this thread was up and running. I didn't guess that when I promised to be back in January that in fact it would be Jan 2005 ! I'm afraid that work and computer problems have meant that I've only lurked and made the odd post last year. Anyway, to those of you who don't remember, this thread started as a means to discuss each of the battles of the LoTR and Hobbit, see page 1 for details.

Our next battle on the list is the First Battle of the Fords of the Isen, 25th February 3019. This is an exceptionally well detailed battle (for Tolkien), covered in Unfinished Tales, as usual though there are some unclear aspects.

The battle was fought between the Rohirrim and the forces of Saruman, this was a prelude to the full-scale invasion of Rohan and was, apparently, fought with one aim in mind -

Saruman had given special orders that Theodred should at all costs be slain

Why so? Well with Theoden sick and under the sway of Grima Wormtongue, Saruman believed that the only two leaders left in Rohan who could endanger his invasion plans were Theodred, the King's son, and Eomer, his nephew. Killing Theodred and discrediting Eomer would paralyse the forces of Rohan, as Wormtongue would then give the orders, potentially allowing Saruman an easy victory.

Understanding the terrain that this battle was fought over is crucial, I suggest that a quick look at the LoTR map will help! The river Isen flowed south from Isengard across the Gap of Rohan. The major crossing place was at the Fords of the Isen, where it became broad and shallow and was split in two by an eyot (small island). However, the river was also bridged at Isengard, so Sarumans forces could advance down the west or east as the fancy took them. Running east-west was the great North Road, which crossed at the fords. As the river banks were steep, the road passed through a narrow cuttting on either side of the river. On the west bank were two earthen forts which the Rohirrim held as a bridgehead and guard against the raids of Dunlendings. A road ran north on the west bank to Isengard and terrain here was open. North of the crossing on the east bank was a low ridge, then rough ground. A number of miles south on the east bank was a small hill.

The weather also had a large part to play, the day was misty, though clearing towards dusk, this allowed Saruman to deploy his orcs without the handicap of bright sunlight and also covered the movements of his troops.

Now for the opposing forces. Theodred and Grimbold had 12 eoreds, (approximately 1440 at 120 men per eored). There was also a force of the levies of Westfold on foot (maybe 800 ??) . Later Elfhelm arrived with a further 4 eored (approx 480). The eored consisted of mounted chain-mail armoured men with shields, lances and swords with light helms, similar to Norman knights. One eored was comprised of mounted bowmen ie. horse-archers. The levies were (judging by Helm's Deep) mostly spearmen, with a small number of bowmen. Probably a proportion were unarmoured, relying only on their shields.

No numbers are mentioned for Sarumans force, though it definitely outnumbered the Rohirrim. On the west side was a large force, this had a vanguard, a force of pikemen (men presumably), wolfriders and orcs. The eastern force was smaller, consisting of Dunlending cavalry, wolfriders, two batallions of Uruk Hai and a large company of armoured men and/or halforcs weilding great axes. I'd imagine that this force was in the region of 3000 strong, while the western force was greater in numbers, maybe 4 to 5000 ?? Saruman's troops carried the symbol of the white hand on their shields.

Theodred was Mashal of the Westmark, and as such was responsible for holding the fords to protect Rohan. He was expecting an invasion by Saruman but not so soon. His scouts reported forces massing on the western side of the river, so he took a powerful force of cavalry (his guard eored, 7 more eoreds and the horse archer eored, in all about 1080 men) to attack them. At the fords he left the levies split between the east and west banks and 3 eored (approx 360).

Theodred rode north about 20 miles, he easily routed Sarumans vanguard - these may have been lightly equipped Dunlending horsemen, wolfriders or simply snagas on foot. He seems to have been impetuous in pursuit, probably leading his guard eored in advance of the rest of his troops. Then he encountered the main force, this consisited of pikemen holding trenches, presumably a ditch and bank type field fortification. Horses are far too sensible to charge into pike blocks over ditches, so, unsurprisingly, Theodred's initial attack was repulsed. He was then in danger of being outflanked by wolfriders etc on his western flank but was able to repel these as his main body of troops arrived. Realising that he could not hope to penetrate the fortification with cavalry, he ordered a retreat to the fords, this was given greater urgency as the mist had cleared for a moment allowing him to spot Saruman's force advancing down the eastern bank of the Isen. Therefore if he didn't get back swiftly he could have been cut off.

When Theodred reached the fords, having been harassed all the way back (Grimbold commanded the rearguard), dusk was drawing in. 50 dismounted cavalry were left on the west bank with the levies in the forts under Grimbold. Theodred and his guard occupied the eyot, while he sent the majority of the cavalry back to the east bank.

Then disaster struck the Rohirrim. Apparently nobody expected Saruman's forces to come down the east bank, and no warning was given of the arrival of Saruman's elite force. This eastern force smashed into the Rohirrim, routed and dipersed them southwards. How was this powerful detachment of Rohirrim, (approx 1200 cavalry and a few hundred foot) defeated so easily? I think the key is in the terrain. The road led from the ford up a narrow cutting, forcing the cavalry to march in a thin column, perhaps only 2 to 4 men wide. The attack was perfectly timed to catch these men as they were in the most vulnerable formation, charged from the side by Dunlending horse, wolfriders (which scared the horses) and Uruk-Hai, they had no chance.

The western end of the ford seems to have held off the attacks of the western force. However, on the east an elite company of heavily armoured men and halforcs weilding battleaxes charged onto the eyot. These may have been around 200 or more strong and surrounded Theodred on a knoll at the centre of the eyot. Although Grimbold charged to the rescue, it was too late as his leader had been struck down.

By now things were looking bad for the Rohirrim, their commander had been killed, two thirds of the army routed and they were surrounded and outnumbered. Elfhelm now arrived to save the day, accompanied by a white standard. He had only 4 eored (about 480 cavalry), but now it was the turn of Saruman's eastern force to be charged while out of formation, many of them had pursued southwards, while the rest were attempting to assault the eyot. Therefore, with their backs to the enemy, the eastern force were routed and the axemen wiped out. Sending two eored into the pursuit, Elfhelm fought his way onto the eyot, in vain striving to save Theodred,

They stooped to lift the body, and found that Theodred still breathed; but he lived only long enough to speak his last words: Let me lie here - to keep the Fords till Eomer comes!

Meanwhile the routed Rohirrim had fled south until, coming to a hill, they prepared to make a last stand. Surprisingly, at a horn signal, the uruk-hai drew off and disappeared into the night. Likewise at the western end of the ford, Saruman's troops drew off. They had failed in their military objective to take the fords, but had succeeded in their political objective to kill Theodred. From Saruman's point of view this was a reasonable outcome, surely the Rohirrim would now be bereft of effective leadership and their king incapable of resisting the invasion. He might not hold the fords, but had showed that they could easily be outflanked, the forces of the White Hand would be back, and in overwhelming numbers to make sure of that! Sadly this was a lesson that Grimbold had not fully appreciated yet.

From the Rohirrim point of view, the battle, while not entirely lost, was a disaster. Their commander was dead, the majority of their forces scattered and their horses lost or exhausted. Tactically they had made errors and been severely mauled. However, strategically, the delay imposed on Saruman had saved Rohan. If Saruman had taken the fords, re-inforced, and invaded Rohan immediately, all would have been lost. Little was he to know that in little more than a week's time Theoden would be re-invigorated, Eomer re-instated and the morale of the Rohirrim boosted by the activities of a certain meddling fool and his three companions, and even in his worst dreams he could not imagine that two hobbits would precipitate the destruction of his army and citadel !

Well there you have it - any thoughts on the composition of Saruman's forces, the tactical mistakes on both sides and the wider significance of the battle? Nilpaurion Felagund suggested above that Saruman should have sent his main strength down the eastern side. I'd tend to agree and also believe that no Rohirrim should have been sent to the western bank. I still can't believe that Grimbold fell into the same trap in the second battle, though we'll discuss that later!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

So good to see you again! :)

Anywhen, I have to read the materials again; I forgot most of the details about this battle. But I'll be back.

Vy ze vay, Rumil, do you know where a good detail map of the area concerned could be found? My previous post was made from mere guesswork about the terrain.

[Numenorean]

Good to see you are back Ru, and with a brilliant analysis of this battle and the geography too.

The thing which initially struck me about this clash was that despite the festering schemes and subterfuge of Saruman and Grima, the Rohirrim were still able to offer and put up a vigorous level of mobilisation when the need arose. Given the four years or so of dotage that Théoden endured prior to the attack, credit for this must lay primarily with Théodred and Éomer, though the other Captains of the Rohirrim that get a mention, Grimbold, Elfhelm and Erkenbrand also come across as being highly motivated, well trained and more than able to act upon their own initiative.

The pretext to Sarumans offensive is exactly as Rumil pointed out:
this was a prelude to the full-scale invasion of Rohan and was, apparently, fought with one aim in mind -
Saruman had given special orders that Theodred should at all costs be slain
To this end he deployed a special "company of men or orc-men...ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes." I wonder what race this company actually was? Tolkien describes them rather ambiguously as great orc-men in one breath then great axemen in the next, and he holds them distinct from the Uruks who charged down the eastern bank. At any rate these fiendish axe-wielders were successful in that they killed Théodred, but failed in their secondary objective of returning his body to Saruman as "Elfhelm himself...sprang up towards the knoll; and there he found Grimbold fighting two great axemen for possession of Théodreds body. One Elfhelm at once slew, and the other fell before Grimbold."
Then as Rumil states
Surprisingly, at a horn signal, the uruk-hai drew off and disappeared into the night. Likewise at the western end of the ford, Saruman's troops drew off. They had failed in their military objective to take the fords, but had succeeded in their political objective to kill Theodred. From Saruman's point of view this was a reasonable outcome
Reasonable for Saruman in the short term, but in the grand scheme of things it must surely go down as a disasterously missed opportunity for the Wizard. Rohan may well have fallen entirely had the Isengarders pressed on in full force instead of retreating under the assumption that killing the Kings Heir was enough to demoralise the proud Eorlingas.
For the Rohirrim however, I feel the opposite view holds for the outcome. In the short term they were badly beaten, and the loss of Théodred was great, yet if anything their resolve was hardened and their military structure remained intact as Erkenbrand immediately assumed command of the West-mark. All-in-all they were far from defeated, as they never actually withdrew from the west bank or the Fords of Isen, and more importantly still - they never lost hope.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This is quite an interesting thread. As to maps covering areas of battles in Middle-earth, The Atlas of Middle-earth , by K. W. Fonstad, is useful.

The numbers in Saruman's army are interesting, and perhaps somewhat
inconsistent. It does seem probable that there were 6,000 + in the Battles of the Fords of Isen. So perhaps his withdrawal after killing Theodred was necessary to
regroup and reorganize, since he had just 10,000 + at Helm's Deep. And why
would a Rohirric rout in far western Rohan necessarily have been decisive, given that the basis of a 10, 000 + Rohan force still presumably existed in central and eastern Rohan, and you would think that a considerable portion could have been mustered in the Edoras/Dunharrow area.

Also, a military error is not necessarily the same as a mistake. An example is the failure of General Ewell at Gettysburg to attack Culp's Hill on July 1st. An attack might have taken it, but given the general situation as he knew it
he was probably right to regroup and attack the next day. Similarly, Saruman
and/or his commander (not elephant-man orc :D ) may have felt it both prudent and militarily correct to withdraw and regroup, although of course that did turn out to be an error.

[Numenorean]

Hi Tuor, you asked:
why would a Rohirric rout in far western Rohan necessarily have been decisive, given that the basis of a 10, 000 + Rohan force still presumably existed in central and eastern Rohan, and you would think that a considerable portion could have been mustered in the Edoras/Dunharrow area.
I see your point, but I was just extending the premise that JRRT lays out in U.T, before the account of the battle he says:
Saruman made the mistake, fatal as it proved, of not immediately throwing in more forces and proceeding at once to a massive invasion of Westfold; though the valour of Grimbold and Elfhelm contributed to his delay. If the invasion of Westfold had begun five days earlier, there can be little doubt that the reinforcements from Edoras would never have come near Helm's Deep, but would have been surrounded and overwhelmed in the open plain; if indeed Edoras had not itself been attacked and captured before the arrival of Gandalf.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Thanks for the welcome back ! (and to Saucepan Man on another thread)

Nilpaurion Felagund, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head in your description of this battle as a double envelopment. On maps, the one in the book itself shows the general layout, but for specifics like the hills and rough ground I've used the accounts of 1st and 2nd Isen in UT and for the narrow cutting, the account of Theoden et al crossing the river in LoTR.

As to the axemen, as Numenorean said, 'Men or orc-men' and 'axemen' are the phrases used. I'd guess that both 'races' might be included in this unit, as orc-men or halforcs are also mentioned at Helm's Deep and there is the halforc-esque charcter in Bree who was spying for Saruman. Perhaps this elite unit comprised the taller, more man-like halforcs if you know what I mean! They seem to have been Saruman's most fearsome fighters.

As Tuor said, its only with the benefit of hindsight that we can spot most 'errors'. The Rohirrim evidently expected Saruman to attack at a later date. I wonder if that was his original plan and he brought forward the date of the main invasion when he realised that hobbits were around, potentially carrying the ring. Maybe it would have suited him better if Wormtongue had a few months to confuse the war effort of Rohan without Theodred and Eomer able to interfere?

Saruman's numbers and the mobilisation of Rohan are linked subjects brought up by both Numenorean and Tuor. I'd agree that Erkenbrand, Grimbold and Elfhelm were courageous leaders but I doubt if they had sufficient political authority to defy Wormtongue's commands. Therefore Theodred and Eomer were Saruman's main initial targets, either for character assassination or real assassination!

On the numbers of Saruman's troops, the numbers I've come up with here are no more than guesses really. If I recall, the only real evidence we have for Saruman's main army is from Merry or Pippin, who descibe it as 10,000 at the least. Therefore I see two possibilities-

Maybe the hobbits greatly underestimated Saruman's force. This is apparently a very easy mistake to make, though usually numbers tend to be over-estimated when you compare eyewitness accounts with paylists etc for historical battles. Untrained observers (unlike Ghan-buri-Ghan) are often 10-fold out in their reckoning. Imagine trying to guess the number of spectators at a football match if you didn't know the capacity of the stadium! Also 'at least 10,000' seems quite a casual statement. Maybe some contingents of the army (eg. the Dunlendings) didn't meet up with the army until later?

Alternatively, perhaps Saruman only had 10,000 troops, give or take a few thousand. In that case, he was really exceptionally bold in launching an invasion of Rohan when numerically outnumbered by the Rohirrim about 2 to 1, and qualitatively outnumbered by lots more, as a knight of Rohan was ceratinly superior in combat to a bunch of snagas. (Rohan had 10 to 12,000 cavalry plus a number of local levies on foot, which may have totalled nearly 10,000 according to one reference in HoME). The only way he could hope to win in that case would be to demoralise and confuse the Rohirrim, which was going qiute nicely through Wormtongue, then to strike at the main centres of Rohan, Helm's Deep and Edoras, before a general mobilisation of Rohan took place. In this scenario, Wormtongue's interfering would be absolutely crucial. What a strange thought to have the good guys outnumbering the bad guys in one of Tolkien's battles!!

Just thought I'd add a link in to an old thread with some Battles of the Isen discussion, and lots of nice info from Bill Ferny mostly on Page 2 - where is the old horse thief these days anyway?

Visualising Middle Earth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=3701&page=1&pp=40&highlight=isen)

PS. Ignore all the rubbish I was talking about panzerstecher swords!

By the way, Saruman seems to have a big reconnaisance advantage in these battles - the palantir and the crebain perhaps?

[Kuruharan]

One wonders why the orcs of Isengard were so stingy with their armor with regard to the Dunlendings. Well, let me rephrase that, them being orcs and all did not make them the most generous of creatures. One wonders why Saruman did not command his orcish smiths to make some armor for the Dunlendings or have them teach the Dunlendings some tricks of the trade. One of the principal weaknesses of the hillmen was their lack of armor, where in other ways they were superior fighters to the orcs. Arming them properly would seem natural. It doesn't seem that Saruman lacked the resources to do so. (Or at least I don't recall any indication of such a lack of resources).

Admittedly, the orcish armor was not the best, but in such cases some armor is better than none at all.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About the number of Saruman's forces:
While it seems reasonable to think the hobbits understated the numbers (I'd picture 50,000 plus) the 10,000+ figure seems, in the context, fairly authoratative. And it's interesting to note how others fasten on that 10,000
Merry estimate (the movies and also Forstad's atlas). Furthermore, a good case can be made for Saruman having c. 10,000 or so: the limited pool of dunlendings
to draw on, the limited geographical extent of Isengard, the need to keep a form
of secrecy (remember Gandalf being bamboozled). If so, then Saruman did, as
noted above, play a remarkably dangerous game, but , as Gandalf observed,
Sauman's one real chance was to get the Ring. With that, and a strong base and devoted and highly trained army centered on Isengard, he was in a strong position, otherwise---he's toast :eek:

I really find UT fascinating, especially, the Battles of the Fords of Isen. So, if
as JRRT opines, Rohan's defense failed conceptually, what should it have done. Given that perhaps the generally preeminent role of cavalry in history is scouting and harassing the enemy, interdicting enemy movement, etc., should Theodred have positioned early warning forces both near Isengard and about the area of the fords, with infantry preparing Helm's Deep?

[The Saucepan Man]

Quick question. Wasn't it the forces bound for Helm's Deep that Merry and Pippin observed? I thought that the Battles of the Fords of Isen had taken place some time before.

[Kuruharan]

The first one had, the second one hadn't.

I find the most curious comment in the account regards the band of Uruk-hai that chased Theodred's riders to the south after the onslaught. The Uruks vanished in the middle of the night and Tolkien made the comment that "It was not until later that they discovered whither the Uruks had gone."

I may be overlooking something very obvious (which is probably most likely) but I can't quite figure out what he means by this. I do have a pet theory though.

A look at the timeline shows that it is possible that this was none other than Mauhur's "lads" who then marched north to meet up with Ugluk. Although how Ugluk knew they were there is a matter for some speculation. It was probably in the plans, but that seems like an overly complex plan relying heavily on happenstance. Of course, then we get to the puzzle of trying to figure out Ugluk's movements, which is a pretty futile exercise. But, then again, it is just a pet theory.

Anyway, a few other general observations.

I find it very curious that Theodred's scouts knew of the Isengarder troop concentrations but failed to discover the prepared positions. That points to some sloppy reconnaissance.

I am still puzzled as to why the eastern garrison broke so easily. The garrison that Theodred had left behind had not moved and should have been in a position to receive an attack.

Also, those riders of Theodred who were driven to the south that I mentioned above had some rudiments of hardiness because not only did they return to the fords after being driven off, they returned expecting to find the enemy in position and they intended to fight!

[Rumil]

Hi again,

lots of interesting points here, I agree with Kuruharan that Saruman could have equipped the Dunlendings with armour. I've always seen the Dunlendings as similar to the 'Barbarians' who fought the Early Imperial Romans, ie Britons, Gauls, Germans and Dacians. Mostly these warriors were unarmoured, though their cheifs and cavalry certainly wore armour and they had the technology to make decent chain mail, probably its a question of economics as chainmail is time consuming and expensive to make. Maybe there's a cultural aspect too. Strangely the wearing of hats amongst the Dacians was a mark of nobility, perhaps armour was only reserved for the Dunlending nobles and not allowed to the 'commoners'? Another thing is that the armour point is based on one of Christopher Tolkien's 'Author's notes', not sure how canonical this makes them, maybe one of the 'canonicity-heads' could comment? Nice point too on the mysterious fate of the missing batallion of Uruk-Hai, Mauhur's lads sound like good candidates. will have to read up before we move onto Eomer's battle.


Ah, Saucepan Man, you're quite right, I wasn't making myself completely clear, in the second post I was considering the total size of all Saruman's forces, as the hobbits saw them leaving Isengard on the way to the Second Battle of the Isen and Helm's Deep. Tuor, I also found that Gandalf had asked Treebeard for help with 10,000 or so orcs, meaning the forces at Helm's Deep. You can usually trust Gandalf for this sort of thing, but maybe he wasn't counting the men and wolves here? Anyway I guess this will be expanded upon over the next two subjects.

I'd agree that the scouting abilities of Rohirrim appear really poor in this battle, no doubt the mist contributed, was this maybe a 'device' instigated by Saruman?

On the eastern force, I can only speculate that the 3 eoreds and the levies were stationed south-east of the ford and were carried away by the rout of Theodred's cavalry returning over the ford, who were surprsed and caught in the flank. As you say, after the pursuing Isengarders drew off, these forces showed their courage by their willingness to return to the fight. I guess the cavalry mostly survived the fighting, but the levy foot might well have been sadly massacred.

As to what the Rohirrim could have done, I guess the first thing is to 'get there fastest with the mostest', they had a powerful army and if it had all ben mobilised and perhaps caught Saruman's forces on the plains of Rohan, I doubt that Saruman could have won, even if he did have significantly more than 10,000 troops. Shows you how important Wormtongue was!

[King of the North]

I'd have to do some serious thinking to provide a plausable reply to this exceptional thread.

[Michael Wilhelmson]

The Dunlendings are not the simple, unevolved barbarians portrayed commonly. If you read closely, Tolkien hints that they are descended from Black Numenoreans, the Dunedain sailed from Numenor early in its history to establish colonies in Middle-Earth. This is just a way that Tolkien shows that even the most noble of races can decline and fall.

[Kuruharan]

The Dunlendings are not the simple, unevolved barbarians portrayed commonly. If you read closely, Tolkien hints that they are descended from Black Numenoreans, the Dunedain sailed from Numenor early in its history to establish colonies in Middle-Earth. This is just a way that Tolkien shows that even the most noble of races can decline and fall.

Um, no.

They were the remnants of the old race of Men that had once lived in the valleys of Ered Nimrais. They were related to the Dead of Dunharrow and the Breelanders. Note what it says of them in Appendix F under “Of Men.”

[Snowdog]

... I'd agree that the scouting abilities of Rohirrim appear really poor in this battle, no doubt the mist contributed, was this maybe a 'device' instigated by Saruman?

On the eastern force, I can only speculate that the 3 eoreds and the levies were stationed south-east of the ford and were carried away by the rout of Theodred's cavalry returning over the ford, who were surprsed and caught in the flank. As you say, after the pursuing Isengarders drew off, these forces showed their courage by their willingness to return to the fight. I guess the cavalry mostly survived the fighting, but the levy foot might well have been sadly massacred.

As to what the Rohirrim could have done, I guess the first thing is to 'get there fastest with the mostest', they had a powerful army and if it had all ben mobilised and perhaps caught Saruman's forces on the plains of Rohan, I doubt that Saruman could have won, even if he did have significantly more than 10,000 troops. Shows you how important Wormtongue was!I think the Rohirrim's overall tactic was flawed from the beginning. Did they not realize Sarumann could send forces down the east side of the river from Isengard? This in itself makes the Fords somewhat indefensable. Of course this was never a problem in history, with Sarumann at one time friendly, and before that, Isengard was a fortress of Gondor.

On the second Battle of the Fords, I think a solid command structure was missing, due in part to Theoden's state of mind, and the death of Theodred in the first battle. Both Battle of the Isen were solid victories for Sarumann.

[Aiwendil]

Regarding the Dunlendings:

. . . many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized the kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Numenoreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with the enemies of Numenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings ("Of Dwarves and Men", HoMe XII).

So they are neither barbarians nor Numenoreans, but descendants of those of the second house of the Edain who did not go to Numenor.

[Kuruharan]

neither barbarians...but descendants of those of the second house of the Edain

These two are not mutually exclusive.

[Saurreg]

Good points people! Excellent discussion going on here. Since I'm quite a novice in military affairs, I'll stay in the wings and continue reading as these fine posts come pouring in.

My compliments to Rumil for resurrecting this great thread! :)

[Saurreg]

Here's a little thought I have. I do hope Kuruharan and other knowlegeable military enthusiaists can expound or maybe even expostulate on it. :D

Strategic Comment

Cavalry of Rohan

It is in my view that despite being big men on big horses (that itself is subjective), the Rohirrim soldiers were light cavalry men on the lines of Khazar, Sarmatian and Scynthian light horsemen as well as the Sicilian cavalry during the Hellenistic era. The ways in which they were deployed as well as the weapons they used closely resembled the recorded doctrine of the three people as well as other riders from central asia and the Iranian plateau.

Heavy cavalry on the other hand had been used exclusively as a shock weapon on the battlefields to drive fear into the enemy through sheer momentum and size and hopefully generate a rout. Thessalian and later Macedonian heavy cavalry were antiquity's prime examples of lance mounted men trained to charge and overwhelm the enemy in a critical moment. The extreme example of the heavy cavalry would be the eastern cataphracts and their heavily armored successors. In any case heavy cavalry was the least flexible and most difficult branch of the mounted arm to command due to their impetuosity and low stamina.

Mongolian heavy cavalry was an exception but I do not think Tolkien based the Rohirrim on them. The battle of the Fords of Isen and the Rohirrim journey to Gondor were carried out at great speeds and the riders were battle-ready when they arrived at the battlefield - another characteristic trademark of the light horse men.

Force structure of Rohan and Its Inherent Deficiencies

If we are in agree that the generally the force structure of Rohan was based on the light cavalry with perhaps some exceptions such generals' bodyguard's etc, than the army of rohan would greatly resemble that of the Sarmatians and Scynthians.

The difference is that the two historical people were generally semi-nomadic. They lived within fixed regions but aside from burial mounts, they had no permanent settlements, as such their armies were centered on versatility and mobility as according to their lifestyle. Rohan on the other had permanent settlements that required defending (Settlement of westfold, Meduseld and Helmsdeep etc). Generally when there are fixed objectives to defend, an immoblie force is needed. Not immobile as in totally stationary but rather, a force centered on the ability to withstand impact without shifting rather than high mobility. Infantry is the most versatile branch of the armed forces and itself can be divided into heavy and light types.

Heavy infantry are classified as infantry that is able to withstand shock and deliver some shock of its own. Greek hoplites and roman legionnaires are good examples of heavy infantry as well as Swiss pikemen from medieval ages. In Tolkien's world the heavy infantry non-par excellence was the Gondorian infantry. Light infantry on the other hand were skirmishers, missile troops and lighter armored foot soldiers whose main feature is versatility and flexibility.

Of the two types, heavy infantry offers higher survivability on the open battlefield (the presence of other arms such as artillery and cavalry provide of course) whereas light infantry should not be deployed without other branches of the army out in the open but are more economical in fortifying settlement defences.

This brings us back to Rohan. Despite its achievements with the light cavalry arm, it is essential an unstable force devoid of an effective infantry. There were infantry militias of course, but they lack the staying power of well-trained heavy infantry and would be at best second rate light infantry. History has shown such outfits as totally ineffective on the battlefield and the weaklink of the army against a capable foe.

The most effective armies of antiquity from Philip's Macedonian war machine to Surenas' Parthian war host operated on the principles of combined arms. It was the job of the heavy infantry to hold while the cavalry pushed. The artillery had the vital task of effecting the above maneuvers with their awesome (hopefully) firepower. None of the three could perform well without the other. Without infantry, the enemy would flow with the push. Without cavalry, the enemy would simply pull and without effective artillery, hold and push may not occur.

The fact that the Rohirrim was lacking both infantry and artillery and possessed only light cavalry goes to show how deficient the army was. It was their fortune that Tolkien decided not pit them against an army with an Alexander or his immediate successors in his fable.

Campaign Comment

First battle of The Fords of Isen

(I shall be using Rumil's Excellent post and information for a stage by stage commentary. He has done such a fine job.)

We know Theodred mustered the troops of his own household and went forth to Isengard while Elfhelm remained for the continuing muster other available troops. This would leave Theodred with over 1400 light horsemen and over 800 militia light infantry of dubious quality for his "invasion force".

What was his primarily objective? Was it to destroy the army of isengard itself during its lax pax state of readiness? Or to lay siege and capture Isengard?"

We do not know except to speculate the the first objective was most probable and that it was Theodred's intention to preemptively assault Saruman and deal him a crippling blow. That it self is impossible since we know the great strength of the latter's army and the fact that the Rohirrim were lacking in infantry and artillery (the hold and push effect comes into play here). Even if possessing supreme skill and courage, the little force would simply dash itself to pieces in the initial charge.

Throughout the entire cause of the battle, the Rohirrim have displayed an incredible ineptitude in reconnaissance and information gathering. This was unlikely in light cavalry since scouting was one of their chief missions. It was either the Rohirrim cavalry like Gallic cavalry were of low quality and at best mediocre or to give Tolkien's prized horsemen a benefit of a doubt, Theodred knew his force was too small and hence arrayed his riders in close ranks, placing a higher premium on force security and battle-readiness over intelligence. If that was the case why did he still commence his mission? Either way, he had committed the ultimate fatal error of going into battle blind.

After scattering the mounted force of his enemy (most probably a scouting force), Theodred rode on in pursuit until he encountered enemy pikemen and ground fortifications in a narrow defile. The battlefield was then clearly an infantryman's battle. If the Rohirrim had a band of tough light infantry like Macedonian Hypasists on call, they could have been sent to clear the trenches and make way for heavy infantry. However Theodred had none of those. What he had was an outfit on unsuitable terrain against unsuitable defences and enemies. A defeat is expected.

When Theodred drew his forces back and decided to make a stand at the fords, he made the ultimate tactical blunder - committing unsuitable forces to unsuitable terrain fighting in an unsuitable manner. The Fords of Isen on either bank and on the island offered little protection for his light infantry militia of dubious quality. As commented before, I believe that only heavy infantry could hold open ground on their own indefinitely. Erkenbrand's militia were not heavy infantry and for them to hold a static line and recieve shock is tantamount to suicide. Theodred must have also ordered some cavaliers to dismount and fight as infantry. Ditto. As for the rest of the riders, they were positioned near to the static line at the east bank to act as missile troops most likely. This is a tactical error - the worth in cavalry is fundamentally maneuver and mobility. By placing them in such close vicinity as the static line, the riders have had their attributes greatly reduced.

It is in my opinion that Theodred should have traded space for time and mobility for shock. His main advantage over his enemy was mobility and he should have made full use of it. A withdrawal eastwards followed by a razed down policy could keep his enemy in check. Also when the time came the Rohirrim could adopt Sun Tzu's dictum of pinning down the enemy front with an ordinary force while outflanking with an extraordinary force. In that maneuver the center of gravity and objective of the maneuver would be the enemy's point of weakness, the one would would cause the total psychological collapse of the enemy - easily the Isen fords again.

[Kuruharan]

I think you are on to something here. However, I might take it a step farther.

Rohan on the other had permanent settlements that required defending (Settlement of westfold, Meduseld and Helmsdeep etc).

I think that the Rohirrim were semi-nomadic to a degree. Yes, they had permanent settlements, but I kind of think of them as being a people who moved about some with their horse herds. I picture them as kind of in a similar vein to the cattle drives of the American West, if you'll grant me the loose comparison.

Now, admittedly, there is really no evidence of this except the lifestyle of their kin in Rhovanion back in the day, but I kind of enjoy the picture.

In Tolkien's world the heavy infantry non-par excellence was the Gondorian infantry.

I disagree with this. Or at least I would question what your source for this is.(Ignoring for the moment what the Gondorian army was actually like because that opens up, say it with me now, "a whole other can o' worms" about what Gondor's military and defensive structure was actually like). The statement seems to me to ignore too much.

As an example of a potential example of other heavy infantry, and I realize that I am probably going to raise some eyebrows here by bucking a long held fantasy assumption, but I don't think that just because Wood Elves lived in the woods meant that they did not have heavy infantry. I point to the large numbers of elven spearmen at the Battle of Five Armies. I think they were at least "heavyish."

And, well, then...*cough* (how to say this without seeming like a homer) what about the dwarves? However, they don't seem to have fought on the plains too much.

*EDIT* I forgot the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Then there were the heavily armored axe-men-orcs that Saruman used...

The fact that the Rohirrim was lacking both infantry and artillery and possessed only light cavalry goes to show how deficient the army was.

As it is presented in the books it could certainly be a bit problematic. However, if the Rohirrim would go all out for horse archers that would change the situation a bit.

(Full disclosure time here: I should say that I personally believe that a well armed horse archer was the most effective type of fighter prior to the advent of gunpowder.)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A few random observations, after a note that I hope that Rumil will eventually consider broadening the subjects to battles of the First and Second Ages(especially the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which has some interesting parallels to problems the French and Russians had in 1914 vis-a-vis the German Empire).
-----------------------

My impression is that for JRRT the Rohirrim were the heavy cavalry of Middle-earth.
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An interesting speculation is how skilled and numerous were the archers of the Rohirrim. In the chapter "The Uruk-hai":
A few of the riders appeared to be bowmen, skilled at shooting from a running horse. (note a few )
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Given that the Dunlendings were distant relatives, it seems remarkably foolish of the Rohirrim to alienate them.
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I especially like the suggestion above of "trading space for time", which would play into both the strengths of the Rohirrim and minimize a key weakness, the need of time to mass their forces. Plus, it would move the field of action into ones more advantageous, that is, open fields or strongholds, as opposed to a fairly open ford situation. (shades of Stalin insisting on defending the extreme western borders of Russia?)

[Rumil]

Hi all,

welcome to Saurreg, what a great post! As for the first one - Methinks he doth protest too much :)

I was going to post 'Eomer's Battle' tonight, but thought that such in-depth discussion deserved some continuation before proceeding, so Eomer will be on soon, hopefully! (You all know me far too well to believe that I am capable of committing to a specific day, month or, occasionally, year)

Saurreg raised some excellent points on the tactics and strategy that could have been more successful for the Rohirrim, I especially liked the desciption of the 'hammer and anvil' Macedonian system. Also the criticism of the deployment at the fords, the cavalry attack on pikemen and the scouting deficiency is entirely justified in my view.

On the 'heaviness' of the Rohirrim cavalry and infantry, I'd differ in interpretation, and of course with Tolkien's battles these are almost totally subjective opinions! For the uninitiated, some explanation is probably due. 'Light' troops are usually considered as those deploying in loose skirmish formations, wearing little armour and relying more on mobility than fighting power. 'Heavy' troops, conversely, are well armoured, deploy in dense formations and are expected to perform most of the hand to hand fighting in ancient battles. Obviously, there's a whole spectrum of in-betweens and much is dependent on the psychology and culture of the armies under consideration.

I'm quite tempted by the Rohirrim as light cavalry, but I think that I'm going to stick with my concept of them as akin to Norman or Frankish knights of the eleventh to twelfth centuries. Why so? Well first of all, their equipment appears similar; lance, sword, long chainmail coat and shield, with good horse. On horses, it should be remembered that the Normans' horses were considerably smaller than the great chargers of later medieval knights, and I'd be inclined to imagine the horses of Rohan to be similar 'general purpose' horses, if you like, rather than the purpose-bred warhorse. The psychology of the Rohirrim also appears to favour the dramatic initial charge rather than the 'harass them then charge them when they're disordered' sort of tactic one might expect from lighter cavalry. I would certainly agree that they did not deploy as densely as the ancient cataphracts, nor can I find any mention of them using horse-armour (though they did have stirrups). Conversely, the long ride to Minas Tirith would imply a lighter cavalry type, which may simply argue against the use of specialist warhorses as these were notoriously difficult to keep in good condition on a march, most medieval knights rode lesser horses then tranferred to the chargers only before battle. A small proportion of the cavalry also carried bows, which could be considerd unusual for a 'Frankish knight' type, but was common amongst, for example, Byzantine heavy cavalry.

On the infantry, I'm probably influenced by the Anglo Saxon fyrd. It seems that anybody who was anybody in Rohan would have ridden a horse, so these local militias were probably drawn from the 'peasantry'. Of course this doesn't mean that they couldn't fight stoutly when the time came, but would argue against them possessing good quality armour and being able to carry out the complex maneuvers of more professional soldiers. I'd see them as forming a defensive shieldwall, 'stiffened' perhaps with local leaders and dismounted cavalry on occasion. The shieldwall may not be an aggressive attacking formation but could perhaps have provided the 'anvil' to pin the opposition, allowing the cavalry to deliver the 'hammer blow' - shades of Sun-Tzu maybe? ;) There also seem to have been some bowmen, who I would regard as light infantry skirmishers, supporting the main infantry line.

On the whole, the Rohirrim could be compared with 'settling-down' Goths. Their early leaders had Gothic-sounding names whereas by the time of the War of the Ring they have more Anglo-Saxon names. This was an intentional philological development by JRRT and I think it represents a change from a nomad to settled culture. Rohan is certainly horse country, wide open rolling grasslands, and only four settlements are named in the book. Therefore I see the Rohirrim as in transition, some aspects nomadic, some tied to the land, as Kuruharan pointed out.

I particularly liked Kuruharan's description of Wood-Elves as 'heavy-ish' and I think it illustrates a point that a well trained unit could be capable of switching battlefield tactics dependent on the situation. The elven spearmen would surely have operated as skirmishers in the forest, but could form up and act as shock troops in more open terrain if the situation demaded it. I'm tempted to think of Roman auxilia here! (btw, just to dangle some bait - LMI or LHI anyone?)

[Rumil]

Hi Tuor,

I see we cross posted a minute ago!

As for battles of the first and second ages - why don't you start a new thread? I think the 3rd age thread will turn out to be a monster, especially by the time we get to the Battle of Bywater! (I wonder how many years hence?).

Although I've read the Sil many times, I don't go back to it very often and am not as 'au fait' as I could be. If you take the lead I'm sure I'll follow on.

Meanwhile, I see we have the horse-archer reference in - I'd guess that its a difficult skill to learn so could maybe be confined to those Rohirrim brought up more in the nomad than settled tradition maybe? Of the eight (or so) eoreds that Theodred led over the Isen, one was comprised of horse archers, so that could indicate the relative proportions amongst the Rohirrim. I wonder if they were like the 'light company' of Napoleonic infantry - every batallion had some, but on special occasions they could be brigaded togther from a number of batallions where the general saw fit.

[Neurion]

I disagree with this. Or at least I would question what your source for this is.(Ignoring for the moment what the Gondorian army was actually like because that opens up, say it with me now, "a whole other can o' worms" about what Gondor's military and defensive structure was actually like). The statement seems to me to ignore too much.Like what, exactly? It seems (at least to my mind) that the Gondorians were quite definitely oriented towards heavy infantry.

(Full disclosure time here: I should say that I personally believe that a well armed horse archer was the most effective type of fighter prior to the advent of gunpowder.)I would disagree with this statement, and instead posit that a fully armoured knight in plate was the most effective.

[Kuruharan]

Like what, exactly?

Like the things I listed immediately below my statement.

It seems (at least to my mind) that the Gondorians were quite definitely oriented towards heavy infantry.

And I tend to think the Gondorians were a more well-rounded force. I inquire regarding your source.

I would disagree with this statement, and instead posit that a fully armoured knight in plate was the most effective.

Ahh, well fortunately this is not a matter for which we have only theoretical speculation upon which to rely. We have a grand instance of this very confrontation in history.

The Mongols shot up the heavily armored knights of Europe just as effectively as they shot up everybody else. As a matter of fact, they made the Europeans look like a bunch of blundering buffoons and the medieval European military system as a whole look (to put it gently) "incapable."

Of course, those silly Mongols did that to most everybody. Darn those well-armed horse archers.

[Saurreg]

I disagree with this. Or at least I would question what your source for this is.(Ignoring for the moment what the Gondorian army was actually like because that opens up, say it with me now, "a whole other can o' worms" about what Gondor's military and defensive structure was actually like). The statement seems to me to ignore too much.

As an example of a potential example of other heavy infantry, and I realize that I am probably going to raise some eyebrows here by bucking a long held fantasy assumption, but I don't think that just because Wood Elves lived in the woods meant that they did not have heavy infantry. I point to the large numbers of elven spearmen at the Battle of Five Armies. I think they were at least "heavyish."

And, well, then...*cough* (how to say this without seeming like a homer) what about the dwarves? However, they don't seem to have fought on the plains too much.

*EDIT* I forgot the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Then there were the heavily armored axe-men-orcs that Saruman used...

I based my claim on the UT whereby in notes 7 and 16 of "The Disaster Of The Gladden Fields" Note 7 stated that the Númenóreans were large of stature and when they went to war, they (the infantry) were accustomed to be fully equiped in heavy armour and weapons.

Note 16 introduced two open-field infantry arrays. The first was the Thangail which was a defensive formation used to recieve shock. The second was the Dirnath which was a wedged formation used to deliver shock over a short distance. To maneuver large bodies of men on the battlefield in the heat of battle is difficult but the fact that these people were able to implied very high training in cohesive fighting. The first formation was used to great effect in the Gladden Fields before the Númenóreans were overwhelmed by superior enemy numbers and the lack of support.

If we go by Rumil's definition in regards on the attire of heavy infantry as well as my earlier where I posted MG J.F.C Fuller's own definition of ancient heavy infantry, Gondor and its lost sister Kingdom of Arnor could thus be assumed to possess excellent heavy infantry.

Elves with long spears may be or may not be heavy infantry. In the first place we hardly knew what tactics they used and neither do we know if they were heavily armored (which also contributes to the dual shock effect). Where they able to withstand shock and did they deliver shock?

In ancient times when situations became desperate, anybody that could wield a weapon was pressed into service. Were simple craftsmen and farmers armered with hedgeforks, scythes and polearms considered heavy infantry? I do not think so.

The story of the last Alliance mentioned that Oropher and his contingent were nearly annihilated when they attacked too soon without support from the rest of the army. If we are to speculate that the armies of both Thrandruil and his father were of similar organisation, then they might imply a poor ability to withstand shock.

You might classify dwarves as heavy infantry if you must. But to say they were better than Gondorian heavy infantry is also guessing too much. I would say that given the constituent, height and reach of a standard Númenórean, Gondorian heavy infantry offers better flexibility on the battlefield. The same argument can also be applied to saruman's hybrid berserkers.

[Saurreg]

Ahh, well fortunately this is not a matter for which we have only theoretical speculation upon which to rely. We have a grand instance of this very confrontation in history.

During Alexander's campaign in Bactria and Sogdiana, he did encounter a Scynthian raiding party comprising of solely horse-archers and defeated them soundly through a combination of ruse and maneuver. It is interesting to note that the linchpin of his strategy was heavy infantry. ;)

[Kuruharan]

I based my claim on the UT whereby in notes 7 and 16 of "The Disaster Of The Gladden Fields" Note 7 stated that the Númenóreans were large of stature and when they went to war, they (the infantry) were accustomed to be fully equiped in heavy armour and weapons.

That is a fairly good source for extrapolation. My source for believing the Gondorians were less specialized in their military is the high quality of the Knights of Dol Amroth.

In the first place we hardly knew what tactics they used and neither do we know if they were heavily armored (which also contributes to the dual shock effect). Where they able to withstand shock and did they deliver shock?

In the Battle of Five Armies the elven spearmen did both to some extent.

The story of the last Alliance mentioned that Oropher and his contingent were nearly annihilated when they attacked too soon without support from the rest of the army. If we are to speculate that the armies of both Thrandruil and his father were of similar organisation, then they might imply a poor ability to withstand shock.

I don't think that proves anything about their equipment. Attacking too soon and without support is a recipe for getting cut all to pieces no matter how heavily armed your troops.

However, I do have vague recollections of some mention being made that the Wood elves were "lighter" armed than other folk. Although who they were being compared to I can't remember. I also can't remember where the reference is, so maybe I just imagined it.

You might classify dwarves as heavy infantry if you must. But to say they were better than Gondorian heavy infantry is also guessing too much. I would say that given the constituent, height and reach of a standard Númenórean, Gondorian heavy infantry offers better flexibility on the battlefield.

The dwarves would also have been much stronger and much better armed. These would both have been true even in the days of the "height" of Nùmenórian power. (Note the clever pun, har har :rolleyes: )

If the dwarves are not heavy infantry, then what are they?

I'm also not clear that the axe-men-orcs were disadvantaged in height, though they likely were in quality of armor.

During Alexander's campaign in Bactria and Sogdiana, he did encounter a Scynthian raiding party comprising of solely horse-archers and defeated them soundly through a combination of ruse and maneuver. It is interesting to note that the linchpin of his strategy was heavy infantry.

Yes, but wasn't he using his own horse archers by that point? However, you do point out something I forgot to mention. By some monumental oversight I left out the staggeringly important fact that I meant a stirruped well-armed horse archer.

Imagine me making an oversight like that.

[Neurion]

Ahh, well fortunately this is not a matter for which we have only theoretical speculation upon which to rely. We have a grand instance of this very confrontation in history.

The Mongols shot up the heavily armored knights of Europe just as effectively as they shot up everybody else. As a matter of fact, they made the Europeans look like a bunch of blundering buffoons and the medieval European military system as a whole look (to put it gently) "incapable."

Of course, those silly Mongols did that to most everybody. Darn those well-armed horse archers.Ohhhhhhhhh, so you're a Mongol fan are you? Well,that explains a lot. :rolleyes:

One crucial point I want to emphasize here is that full plate is invulnerable to arrows, whether loosed from horseback or not.

I disagree with the contention that the Mirkwood elves may have been heavy infantry on the basis that they were, I believe, primarily Silvan, and were therefore less likely to bear heavy armour and weapons than their technophile Noldor cousins.

[Kuruharan]

One crucial point I want to emphasize here is that full plate is invulnerable to arrows, whether loosed from horseback or not.

Sacre blu! It is?!! Then I must fly with all haste to my lord Constable d'Albret who is at this very moment arranging his troops at Agincourt!! I must most earnestly entreat his lordship to sound the onset!! He cannot possibly lose!!!

[Neurion]

Sacre blu! It is?!! Then I must fly with all haste to my lord Constable d'Albret who is at this very moment arranging his troops at Agincourt!! I must most earnestly entreat his lordship to sound the onset!! He cannot possibly lose!!!Oh please. The French knights at Agincourt didn't have full plate, and besides that, the majority of their casualties were caused by suffocation in the mud, and the English dismounted knights and men-at-arms. The "invincible longbow" is a quaint English myth.

[Rumil]

Aha that put a smile on my face!

Nice reference by Saurreg to descriptions of Nuemenorean heavy infantry tactics, though, of course they appear to have declined somewhat by the end of the third age.

On full plate armour, I think its not so applicable to Middle Earth, but anyway. As Kuruharan points out, plate armour of the 14th to early 15th centuries could be penetrated with comparative ease by arrows from experienced longbowmen. However, by the end of the 15th century, advances in metal working had led to the introduction of specially hardened 'blue-steel' armour, which was far more difficult to pierce with longbow arrows. This, however, was incredibly expensive stuff at the time and probably limited to only the richest knights. I believe that in one battle (name escapes me!) towards the end of the Hundred Years War, English longbowmen were comprehensively ridden over by Genoese mercenary knights equipped in this new high-tech gear.

Of course, soon enough the improved plate was being defeated by gunpowder weapons.

I don't think this sort (or maybe any sort?) of plate armour is relevant to the late Third Age period, though I seem to remember Elrond commenting on armour of ancient times, perhaps the Noldor had the trick of making it after hints and tips from Aule? Could explain some of their prowess in the First Age battles?

I don't particularly want to be drawn into any arguments about which troops or equipment were 'best' as these things generally depend on the circumstances. Perhaps Neurion's 'weapons and armour' thread would be more appropriate for this sort of thing?

[Kuruharan]

The French knights at Agincourt didn't have full plate

The battle was fought in 1415. If full plate was not around by then, please enlighten my bottomless ignorance as to when it was in use.

However, be careful. Too many more years into the future and you get into the Gunpowder Age, and my statement was specific to the ages before that really began exploding on the scene (even though by this point it was already in some use).

the majority of their casualties were caused by suffocation in the mud, and the English dismounted knights and men-at-arms.

What difference does that make? Even ignoring the fact that I disagree with your statement that plate armor could not be penetrated, your contention is that the heavily armed knight was the most effective fighter in the whole era before the advent of gunpowder. This is one of many instances where the heavily armored knight just did not fare too well.

If you would like another instance, aside from Mongols, of the mailed chivalry of France (considered for some unfathomable reason to be the best, I think they just thought they were best) "not doing too well" look at the battle of Nicopolis in 1396.

The "invincible longbow" is a quaint English myth.

Well, something certainly tilted the battlefields of the Hundred Years War in their favor against most reasonable expectations to the contrary for a considerable period of time.

*Cough* anyway, back to warfare in the Third Age of Middle earth...

Saurman's followers seem to have been of a rather plodding sort or Saruman did not encourage them to take initiative themselves. It is probably some combination of both. The Isengarders could have caused much more havoc had they reordered themselves and pressed an attack rather than drawing off in the first battle.

[Neurion]

Ohhh no, you're not getting away that easily.

I'll ignore your intended slight and try to state my case a little better

I should have perhaps said that the knight was the ultimate weapon on the medival battlefield, rather than saying the mounted knight.

Losing to the English at Agincourt was not the fault of the French knights, nor their training. To charge headlong through a muddy morass like that was simple foolishness on the part of the commanders.

Neither longbows nor crossbows could penetrate the best plate armor. Striking at a 45 degree angle, a bodkin-headed arrow or quarrel might dent or scratch armor plate, but hitting at any other angle the projectile would simply deflect.

Again, I say that the French knights did not yet have the advantage of full plate armor, as full plate only became availabe around 1450.

About the longbow tilting the balance of the hundred years war, I never said it was not an effective weapon, I merely said it was not invincible.

One contemporary record states that archers would be directed to release their arrows upward at a very high angle to try and disrupt a charge by knights. In this way, the falling arrows "might" just possibly peirce the armor plate in some instances, but in any case the primary intention was to kill the horses or cause them to become unmanageable through inflicted arrow wounds. Unhorsing them would, of course, make the knights slower, but no less deadly.

English longbowmen were primarily used to provide "suppresive fire" against the enemy, rather than attacking them straight on. Their primary function at Agincourt seems to have been to force the French kinghts to bunch up, making their charge less effective.

Also, according to John Keegan's "Face of Battle", the English archers were unable to stop the French knights in any case. What saved the English position was the stakes placed around their position.

Finally, simply stating that the heavily-armed and armored knights did not fare too well at Agincourt does not somehow prove that knights were ineffective, as you seem to be saying. In that instance the French knights lost mainly to the English knights, not to archers.

[Neurion]

I don't particularly want to be drawn into any arguments about which troops or equipment were 'best' as these things generally depend on the circumstances. Perhaps Neurion's 'weapons and armour' thread would be more appropriate for this sort of thing?Oh crap. Sorry.

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps you and I should continue this discussion via PMs...

[Neurion]

I highly doubt Kuru's hypothesis that mounted archers would have made up the bulk of an Eored. In RotK, Tolkien's references are quite clearly on lancers, e.g. "More skilled was their Knighthood with long spears and bitter", Theoden shattering his lance against the Haradhrim chieftain, etc.

[Kuruharan]

I highly doubt Kuru's hypothesis that mounted archers would have made up the bulk of an Eored.

I don't recall saying that...

...but let me go quote myself.

However, if the Rohirrim would go all out for horse archers that would change the situation a bit.

There it is. I said "would" as in something they could have done but did not.

I did not mean to imply I thought the Rohirrim were primarily horse archers.

[Neurion]

I don't recall saying that...

...but let me go quote myself.

There it is. I said "would" as in something they could have done but did not.

I did not mean to imply I thought the Rohirrim were primarily horse archers.Right. My mistake.

AS I have said before though, to me, the Rohirrim seem most reminiscient of the Carolingians in battle.

[Saurreg]

Hi, I'm back.

It is a pity that we can discuss very little on the organisation and tactics of Saruman's army since the Battle of the Fords revolved around the Rohirrim. But from some paragraphs we know these;

1) The network of anti-horse ditches and trenches in the narrow defile leading to Isengard. Proof of rudimentary knowledge and presence of military engineering?

2) Phalangites of lesser men were used against Theodred and his horsemen. Presence of heavy infantry?

3) Uruks able to best Rohirrim cavalry in motion. I have no idea how to make this out.

4) The army crossing the Isen upstream from the eyot and hence avoiding a head on collision with Theodred and his defenders. Proof of knowledge in maneuver warfare?

[Saurreg]

That is a fairly good source for extrapolation. My source for believing the Gondorians were less specialized in their military is the high quality of the Knights of Dol Amroth.

Within a well trained and lavishly equiped army, there are bound to be certain units that are more elite. The First, Second, tenth and fourteenth legion of the Imperial Roman Army, the Imperial Guards of the Grande Armee and the winged hussaria of the Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth armies are such examples. But that does not mean that the rest of the army are of low quality or less specialised.

In the Battle of Five Armies the elven spearmen did both to some extent.

I don't think that proves anything about their equipment. Attacking too soon and without support is a recipe for getting cut all to pieces no matter how heavily armed your troops.

However, I do have vague recollections of some mention being made that the Wood elves were "lighter" armed than other folk. Although who they were being compared to I can't remember. I also can't remember where the reference is, so maybe I just imagined it.

I will take your word on the deeds of the elven spearmen though I still reserve significant doubt.

When I think about the elves getting annihilated soon after attacking, I question their ability to deliver and withstand shock. Those two attributes above all seperate heavy infantry from light infantry. The fact that the elves were not even able to fight an ordered withdrawal from the battle gives doubt to their cohesiveness and staying power.

I would suspect that due to the lack of shock, the elves were unable to make an impression on the enemy front and dashed themselves to pieces. With poor cohesion and still numbed by the unsucessful attack, the elves soon found themselves overwhelmed and indeed overran by the shock delivered by the enemy.

You did not imagine that part about the lightly armored wood elves. I have read it somewhere before.

The dwarves would also have been much stronger and much better armed. These would both have been true even in the days of the "height" of Nùmenórian power. (Note the clever pun, har har :rolleyes: )

If the dwarves are not heavy infantry, then what are they?

I'm also not clear that the axe-men-orcs were disadvantaged in height, though they likely were in quality of armor.

I never claimed that the dwarves had no heavy infantry. In my post I typed,

You might classify dwarves as heavy infantry if you must.

I simply stated that if you, Kuruharan wished to state that dwarves had heavy infantry, then feel free to do so.

Flexibility is the key word I was looking into here. The dwarves might have been better armored, but the Gondorians with their reach and stride would make for more flexible soldiers, giving their commanders better options. For example if a quick violent dash is needed, the greater strides of the towering Dunedain would give them an advantage over dwarves. Similarly when there is a need to cross waters chest high to the Dunedain height, no bridges need to be put up if the rocks in the bed offer traction and the flow not to swift. Equally important is the climbing of siege ladders and such other equipment swiftly.

As for the the hybrid berserkers, I should think that their main advantage was their frenzied state of mind in battle. They can deliver shock, but how well can they withstand shock and also offer flexibility?

Yes, but wasn't he using his own horse archers by that point? However, you do point out something I forgot to mention. By some monumental oversight I left out the staggeringly important fact that I meant a stirruped well-armed horse archer.

Imagine me making an oversight like that.

No he did not. At that point of time he was pursuing the renegade Bessus and securing the north eastern frontier of his newly won empire. As such what cavalry he had were still macedonian and grecian in nature. There were javelin-throwing cavalry but no horse archers at all. The Perisian Epigoni was still in an embryonic stage.

[Saurreg]

Rumil, I think now's a good time for you to steer this thread onto a new discussion of you're still interested in doing so. :)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I tend to agree it's time to move on to another battle.

As for woodelves (silvan elves) being comparatively lightly armed, from UT:
The Silvan Elves were hardy and valliant, but ill-equipped with armour and weapons in comarison with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-Galad. Their losses were thus more grevious than they need have been, even in that terrible war. Malgalad and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead marshes. Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-Galad had given the signal for the advance.

And I believe that woodelves were so severely decimated in the First Battle of Beleriand that they were largely bystanders in later Beleriand wars.

[Kuruharan]

For example if a quick violent dash is needed, the greater strides of the towering Dunedain would give them an advantage over dwarves.

Actually, I do disagree with this. In a short charge the dwarves would have a lower center of gravity and with their greater strength they would have a much easier time of crashing into the enemy line and knocking their enemies to the ground and chopping them into itty bitty bits. They would not have to worry as much about the longer reach of some of their enemies because of the quality of their armor.

The Perisian Epigoni was still in an embryonic stage.

Ah, okay. I wasn’t sure about that.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

Eomer is definitely up next, but I think I need to type it up in Word and paste in later as the post seems to be turning complicated at the mo. Anyway, I thought Saurreg raised some nice points about Sarman's army. I agree that they showed some tactical sophistication, the pikes and trenches are exactly the right way to fend off cavalry as long as they're not outflanked.

I'm wondering if these pikemen were a) Dunlendings, and therefore allies of Saruman, probably led by their own cheiftains or b) troops maintained solely by Saruman. I think its revealing that at Helm's Deep the Dunlendings cry out in a 'foreign' language, but the ruffians at the scouring of the Shire certainly speak the common tongue. (In fact a very common tongue!). I wonder if Saruman recruited and trained a reasonably large number of men, perhaps instructing them in language as well as tactics. From these some may have been selected for spying duties up the Greenway, others trained as pikemen and some remained as Saruman's trusted gate guards. Perhaps some were even desceded from the old Gondorian garrison of Orthanc. Presumably Orthanc would always have had a garrison of some sort after its re-occupation by Saruman and a human force would have been more acceptable in case visitors dropped by, before the orcish army was revealed to the world.

Its also a big shame that we only get to see one of Saruman's 'underlings', Grima Wormtongue. There must have been 'generals' sent out with the army. From Grima, maybe we can conclude that although corrupted, they were certainly not without intellgence. I'd also imagine some sort of 'apprentice sorcerors' to set off the technically complex 'fires of Orthanc', though I'm getting ahead of myself here!

[Kuruharan]

troops maintained solely by Saruman...Perhaps some were even desceded from the old Gondorian garrison of Orthanc.

I think considering their weapons they would almost have to be Saruman's Own Pike Regiment. I always pictured them as being human. I never really considered where they came from. However, they were evidently not numerous because they are never mentioned again (although that is evidently where Jackson got the idea). Their lack of numbers as well as their equipment makes it appear to me that they were probably some of the old people of Isengard who had lived there for generations.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

[T]hey were probably some of the old people of Isengard who had lived there for generations. (Kuru)
I agree. As I recall the inhabitants of Isengard by the time it went under Saruman's stewardship had much Dunlendish blood.

[Saurreg]

I for one tend to think of the phalanx contigent as a unit of Dunlendings specially organized, equiped and trained to repel cavalry.

If memory serves (it seldom does now), the Dunlending has had contact with the Rohirrim and relationships between both people were a wee bit hostile. Thus if Saruman needed a human look in his army, the Dunlendings would be the best candidates. Or that was needed for the walled up tide of bad feelings to flow was a little push and Saruman could have done that. As Erkenbrand explained to the captives at the foot of Helmsdeep, they were misled by Saruman and I dare say it was due to their prolonged bias and hatred to the horse-tamers.

As for the equipment and tactics, both could have been bestowed upon by Saruman or not. Stephen Dando-Collins stated in his book Caesar's Legion" that when the Helvetii attacked, they made use of the Greek phalanx. A classic case of monkey see, monkey do. The dunlendings could also have done so, either from the memories of some elders who had seen phalanx in action or have heard stories of how moving pikes mowed down everything before it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the longer the pike, the lesser chance a horseman can get to you and that if every pikemen cluster together and point their pike tips in the same direction and advance, the chances of sucess are much higher for say a lone naked fanatic with an axe.

That said, I will not discount the fact Saruman might have his orcs round up a motley crue and have them taken to him. He'll look at the bunch, stroke his beard and say,

"Alright then! You see those big sticks laying on the ground there? Yes, those. Now I want every single one of you to pick up a stick. No! Not those twigs at your feet! I meant THOSE sticks over there! Yes, good... Now I want you to form a rectangle, sixteen a column and ten per row. What's that Michael? You don't know what's a rectangle? Billy? You're confused between the difference columns and rows. Yer Valars... (Barks a curt command to a group of uruks chatting around the water dispenser, taps foot impatiently) Now that is what I want. Now do as the Uruks just did. No Paul, you don't need to go growling and beating your chest, just go line up! Ok! You are now in a rectangle. No Jason! You don't go around giving hi-fives and handshakes, we're not over yet! Now I want the first four rows to point the sharpened ends of your big sticks forwards. What's that Billy? You still... Nevermind! The first four rows start with Andy and ends with Mac! You see that Billy? That's the first four rows! Now the rest of you tilt your sticks a little forward. Yes good. What's that Mac? You cannot point your stick forward because you'll impale the man before you and you don't want to impale him because you're a nice guy! Ok, just hold your stick over his shoulder. There! Now I want all of you to walk slowly towards that uruk over there. Nice and slow! Don't run Andy! WALK! Yes! Yes! Good... Now when you see those big bad strawheads and their horses, this is what you do. You pick up your big stick, form a rectangle and walk towards the strawheads together. Understand? Capisch? Good! Any questions? What's that Jason? Yes, you can go congratulate yourselves now!"

[Rumil]

Eomer’s Battle

Our next battle, Eomer’s destruction of the Uruk-Hai, is in fact not much more than a skirmish, but gives us the opportunity to see the tactics of the Uruks and Rohirrim at a closer level.

Then with a great cry the Riders charged from the East; the red light gleamed on mail and spear

The precursors to this battle were the skirmishes at Sarn Gebir on the 23rd February 3019 and at Parth Galen on the 26th of February, where the Fellowship was broken. At Parth Galen we are shown a mixed company of ordinary orcs and Uruk-Hai, the Uruk-Hai belonging to Saruman, the orcs to Sauron and Moria. Boromir managed to slay about 20, Legolas and Gimli ‘many’. With the three hunters in hot pursuit the orcs set off across Rohan, though stopping briefly for an altercation between Ugluk and Gishnakh where another 5 were killed. They managed to outrun their pursuers. Interestingly, Legolas says

There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us

Evidence of Saruman’s ‘magic’?

Eventually Eomer’s eored of Rohirrim encountered them on the plains and managed to overtake and surround them just before they reached Fangorn forest.

The orcish forces consisted of Saruman’s Uruk-Hai under Ugluk, with Lugdush maybe second in command. They carried short broad bladed swords, yew bows with long-shafted arrows, shields with the white hand device, chainmail and helms with an ‘S’ rune. The orcs of the eye were led by Grishnakh, they were generally short and stocky in comparison with the Uruk-Hai. Additionally there was a contingent of Moria orcs who were smaller than both the groups above and were not happy operating in daylight. The orcs had bows with black feathered arrows, shields and scimitars and may have been armoured. There were also some ‘Snaga’ scouts armed with bows. Darts are mentioned, this may indicate javelins or alternatively war-darts, maybe similar to the Late Roman martiobarbuli. In total there were around 200 orcs remaining by the time of the battle. Previously there were around 100 Moria orcs, 80 Uruk-Hai and 40 Mordor orcs and a few snaga scouts. In addition, of course, Merry and Pippin!

The Rohirrim consisted of Eomer’s Marshall’s eored of 120 cavalry. They rode grey horses with braided manes, carried tall ash spears with bright spearheads, painted shields and long swords and wore burnished mail coats, some carried bows and fired grey-fletched arrows. The riders themselves were tall with blond braided hair. Eomer wore a white horsetail crest and rode a horse called Firefoot.

The battlefield was around a hillock just three furlongs from the eaves of Fangorn, bounded on the East by the river Entwash.

The battle took place during the night of the 28th February and the morning of the 29th. After harassing the orcs with bowshot and surrounding them on the knoll, the Rohirrim settled in to degrade the morale of their opponents by small actions, sensibly waiting until morning to launch an all out attack. They cut off a group that tried to flee to the forest, shot some, infiltrated the camp to kill some more and lit watchfires in a ring around the knoll. Orc morale was distinctly shaky and rapidly became worse, though the Uruk-Hai were less impressed. At this point Grishnakh attempted to escape with Merry and Pippin but was swiftly spotted, shot and speared.

Ugluk was still hopeful, however, as he knew of another force of orcs under Mauhur waiting to support him in Fangorn. I’d guess that these were Uruk-hai but probably not very numerous, maybe 50-odd? Mauhur and his ‘lads’ may have been part of the missing Uruk battalion from the 1st Battle of Isen (see previous page), though Ugluk could not have been. Mauhur attacked, but Eomer sent a detachment which successfully dealt with the problem.

At dawn, with further degradation of orcish morale, the Rohirrim charged from the east (therefore with the sun in the eyes of the orcs), the riders singing and the horses neighing. The orcs responded by firing their remaining arrows, the Rohirrim passed up the knoll, wheeled, charged again and broke the orcs who were hunted down individually. Ugluk and a group of Uruk Hai formed a wedge and attempted to break through to the forest, at which Eomer dismounted and killed Ugluk in hand to hand combat. The orcs were utterly destroyed but the Rohirrim lost 12 horses and 15 men.

So ended the raid, and no news of it came ever back either to Mordor or to Isengard; but the smoke of the burning rose high to heaven and was seen by many watchful eyes

Some points which struck me included; the danger of a combined operation between Sauron and Saruman for either party if the ring had indeed been found; Saruman’s ‘magic’ coming into play; Eomer’s use of almost ‘guerilla warfare’ style tactics to damage orcish morale; the fact that Ugluk knew about Mauhur’s presence and the discipline of the Uruk Hai, who withstood 2 charges then tried a fighting withdrawal. Any comments on these? ;)

Also, a link to the relevant chapter of Estelyn's fantasic Chapter-by-Chapter discussion

The Uruk-Hai (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11412&page=1&pp=40)

[Kuruharan]

First important point to note is that the Rohirrim were heavy enough to ride over a clustered body of troops, something not all horses or cavalry could be made to do, although the orcs may not have been "formed up" as such.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Several brief points:

1) Note how superior JRRT's Rohirrim tactics are to PJ's movie
(where they just charge in blindly--- and at night!), helped out, of
course by a lack of movie orcish sentries.

2) Given the highly effective strategy of Eomer's lads here, did Denethor later
have a point about how the Rohirrim might have been effective, en masse,
if they'd arrived before Minas Tirith was under siege?. Or would a 6,000+ heavy
cavalry force have been significantly less capable then Eomer's household professsionals? And if so, did Eomer act rashly and unwisely in committing them
against what he must have assumed was merely a raiding force of no great importance, and one that was fleeing Rohan [good grief, was Wormy correct in his critique of Eomer?] :eek:

[Kuruharan]

And if so, did Eomer act rashly and unwisely in committing them
against what he must have assumed was merely a raiding force of no great importance, and one that was fleeing Rohan

At the time it did not seem likely that they would ever have any other use.

And it was probably just the principle of the thing.

[Rumil]

Hi again,

Some interesting points here, on the Rohirrim charge up the knoll, I wonder if it was fairly rocky and scrubby, maybe allowing the cavalry to charge through rather than into the orcs in a dispersed manner rather than a mighty collision?

I'd reckon that Eomer was correct in attacking the orcs once he found them. A relatively easy victory would have encouraged the riders, whereas shying away from combat would definitely have been frowned upon by his contemporaries. However, I guess there's an argument that he should really have been leading additional reinforcements to the second battle of the Isen at this time. I'd imagine that one of Grima's priorities would have been to keep Eomer's and Theodred's forces from uniting if at all possible, therefore the Worm's insincere criticism may have reflected the fruition of his own plans!

Naturally the Marshal's Eored would have been picked troops and better equipped and trained than many of the Rohirrim, though HoME implies that the majority were at least adequately equipped. 'Nearly 10,000 fully equipped and provisioned riders' or similar.

On the pikemen, I find myself drawn to comparisons with medieval Scottish schiltrons. A relatively poorly financed infantry force having to deal with arrogant knights from a bordering country maybe?

[Saurreg]

Rumil, are you in anyway an aficionado on cavalries? ;)

Battlefield Comment

If the hillock was close to the Entwash and carefully selected by Eomer as the place to herd the orcs onto, then I would think that the Marshal of the Mark had decided on a cavalry charge as his coup de grâce already when he intercepted the enemy. For the cavalry charge to be effective, the cavalry commander must prevent his target from shifting because once committed, the impetuosity and inertia of the charge would make a quick change in direction impossible. If the enemy is massed in a large group of several thousand bodies or so, its own bulk and inherent rigidity would prevent it from dispersing rapidly to avoid the incoming shock. But in this case there are only 200 hundred or so orcs - very easy for them to scatter in all directions and render the cavalry charge impact void. Something was needed to helm them together, to prevent them from avoiding the horses and I belief the Entwash was that barrier.

Any cavalry vs. infantry engagement is more of a contest of wills than brute melee and shock is the key. An for every infantryman, nothing is more terrifying than facing a cavalry charge with a wall behind his back to prevent him from escaping. Once the pressure exceeds the infantry's threshold of tolerance, the will to fight snaps and the unit routs.

I hereby submit that Tolkien had the "anvil and hammer" effect in mind when he wrote of the battle. Eomer and his eored was the hammer while the Entwash was the hammer. Provided that the Entwash was in close proximity to the hillock i.e (<100m distance).

Charge Comment

I tend to believe that the Rohirrim Cavalry charged pass the gaps between the orcs as opposite to through them literally, crushing all beneath hoof, simply because as stated by Fuller and Keegan, NO heavy cavalry had in the course of history from antiquity to the Great War ever done so.

As mentioned, anti-cavalry warfare was essentially a psychological duel. Units that panick, break and scatter would be those that cavalry "overrun" After the Napoleonic Wars had ended, the British Army conducted a study and discovered that the only time that a resolute square of infantry was broken by cavalry alone, was when the dead and out of control carcass of a charger crashed into it and nearby horsemen immediately exploited the gap created. In no instance during the countless breathtaking cavalry charges that took place did cavalry mow on and flatten all before it through sheer momentum and weight. Not even during the mass cavalry charge at Eylau where, it is now more or less accepted that the Russians rout and parted ranks when the French heavies reached them. Makes sense because it would have been impossible for Murat and company to wheel around and charge back to the French lines had they bloodied and squashed their way through the entire Russian depth in two feet of loose snow.

Georges Blond, the premier French Historian on the Grande Armee placed the average cavalry charge at only 18km/hr and at Eylau due to bad weather and ground conditions, it was even less. That meant that despite mass, the French cavalry lacked the momentum to physically overrun the enemy.

Another way to decide if a cavalry did literally squash all in its way underhoof is by counting the cavalries casualties. The logic is that no matter how fast and heavy, the cavalry is bound to suffer heavily if it keeps crashing into things constantly. Throughout his entire Persian Campaign, Alexander's Companion Cavalry suffered less than 10% casualties as compared to his other arms and at the Battle of Patay, La Hire and Poton de Xantrailles lost only an estimated five men in their charge through English ranks (the English lost 2000 over men).

Another thing to note is that unless a rider delibrately directs his mount towards an obstacle, both rider and horse tend to avoid obstacles instinctively and subconsciously.

[Rumil]

Hi Saurreg,

I must say I agree pretty much completely with your analysis of cavalry combat here. I nearly put in a sentence after the 'mighty collision' comment to emphasise that this almost never happened historically, but your post explained things a lot better!

I guess the only minor differences are that I'd credit the watchfire tactic of Eomer with 'penning in' the orcs though I'd agree that the reason the orcs could not flee further East was the location of the Entwash. I do think that if the orcs had scattered on the plains the Rohirrim would easily have been able to chase them down individually, however if they had managed to reach the forest, the riders would not have been able to pursue them effectively. Also maybe that cavalry of earlier times appears more effective against some infantry, but that really depends on the relative training and morale of both sides, which becomes more difficult to analyse as you go back in history.

I guess its really quite difficult for us to imagine precisely what went on in cavalry combat. I've seen some accounts of opposing units opening ranks and charging through one-another and some of the units reining-in, slowing down and fighting 'hoof-to-hoof', but often one side would break and run before the 'impact' occurred.

Anyway I must admit that the charge of the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields is one of my favourite bits of the books!

[Saurreg]

Time for a new discussion? :)

[Rumil]

erm, yeah, soon, honest! ;)

Cheers,

Rumil

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Bump???

What's next, Helm's Deep?

[Rumil]

Hi Tuor et al,

as you noticed, I haven't made much progress with this thread recently! Must admit I've been v busy with those nassssty computerssssess at work and therefore not too enthusiastic about using the one at home. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the next battle on the list is the Second Battle of the Fords of The Isen, please feel free to post any ideas and comments etc. I will get round to it eventually!

Cheers,

Rumil

[Snowdog]

I would like to say at this point, the command structure of the Rohirrim was somewhat in disarray with the death of Theodred. Grimbold and Elfhelm were the direct commanders over the foot men of Westfold and the riders of Edoras respectively. Erkenbrand had been put in overall charge, and named Grimbold as commander in the field, but did not assume authority over Elfhelm. But though they were friends and both wise, the differences in thought on how to best defend the Fords was ever prevalent. Considering the numbers available, I think Elfhelm's defence plan was the wisest, but the thought of abandoning the Fords uncontested didn't sit well with the Westfold commanders.

The second Battle of the Fords of Isen was a critical defence by a force out-numbered and initially out-maneuvered, but held on with little hope of relief in hopes their efforts were worthy. Strategicly it made a big difference with the time it bought Theoden to get to Helms Deep.

I have more on this but time doesn't allow right now.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The Battles of the Fords of Isen are well depicted by Tolkien. Theodred's
initial plans seem reasonable. I was at first prepared to question the
Rohirrim's intel, but heodred was aware of the general situation and
plans of Saruman (which makes all the more absurd Saruman's speech
to Theoden at Orthanc). On reconsideration the underestimation of
Saruman's forces was understandable, and rather frequent in military
history- giving verisimilitude to the battles. (Among others, consider Gen.
McClellan vastly overestimating Confederate forces in 1861-62 due to
not only his overcautious nature but badly flawed intel provided by
the Pinkertons, the wehrmacht greatly underestimating Russian forces
in 1941, and the incredibly, disappeaaring "weapons of mass
destruction" in Iraq---which fooled all intelligence services).

From what they surmised, the Rohan forces prepared and fought well
even in the Second Battle. Had Wormtongue not delayed Theoden
sending aid a stronger delaying action might have been fought in
the West Emnet while the muster of Rohan proceeded---based on
Erkanbrand's strategic vision:
He sent errand-riders to Edoras to announce this
(Theodred's loss) and to bear to Theoden his son's last words,
adding his own prayer that Eomer should be sent at once with
all help that could be spared. 'Let the defence of Edoras be made
here in the West,' he said, ' and not wait till it is itself besieged.'...
It was not until his (Grima's) defeat by Gandalf that any
action was taken. The reinforcements with Eomer and the King
himself set out in the afternoon of March the 2nd, but that night
the Second Battle of the Fords was fought and lost, and the
nvasion of Rohan began.

The twin evils of underestimating Saruman's forces and Grima's influence
may have delayed an effective defense of the Westfold. While speculative,
and ignoring needs to rapidly assist Gondor and to destroy Orthanc itself,
as a military in situ problem I would suggest Rohan would probably
have prevailed over Saruman, especially given the quality of Rohan's
leadership.

[JeffF.]

just a post to bring up to the front of the threads, more to follow

[Rumil]

Blimey,

it has been a long time hasn't it?

Cheers to JeffF for bringing this one back from the dusty vaults. I may even start posting on it again ;), though don't hold your breath!

Any interest in continuing this thread?

[Hakon]

This thread looks like a good one to continue. So far all of Jeff's threads relating to military can fit in this thread. I support reopening this thread.

[JeffF.]

The battle as described by Tolkien particularly in light of Fondstad's Atlas
of Middle Earth has much that does not make sense and the tactical
deployment is more like a modern battle than a medieval type.

First the distances described in Fonstad's Atlas make no sense. Six miles
separate the Elven wing from the Dwarves and Men. In a medieval battle that
is two separate battles not one. Three miles separate the gate from either
wing. No one would have noticed the gate crashing down and 13 Dwarves
emerging. The numbers stated in the Hobbit (1000 Elf spearmen - bowmen unstated but assumed to be at least as many - and 500 Dwarves). Anyone who has seen an Army battalion on a parade field will see that it takes up a remarkably small amount of space and medieval type mass formations would be very similar.

The geography of the battle needs to shift. The vale between the two arms (southern and eastern) will have to extend closer to the summit until it reaches a fairly narrow area closer to the Gate held by Thorin and his company. This would preclude the ruins of the town of Dale being anywhere near the summit, it could still be between the arms of the mountain but must be farther down. A town of any size being in the middle of a battle with such small numbers would not make sense, it would dominate the battlefield.

The Elf wing and Dwarf/Men wing should be closer together, the ends nearest the other should be within bowshot otherwise there would be no need to occupy both arms. The tactical requirement to man both arms would be to prevent the enemy bowmen from using that adjacent height to support with arrow volleys an attack up the ridge by other forces. If the mountains arms are not within arrow range there would be no point in occupying both.
Another reason for the forces to be closer together is the observes sent by the Free folk to climb the mountain to observe the enemy, these must have been fairly close to communicate with their forces, having such observers several miles away would preclude that particularly given the haste in which deployments were made once Gandalf warned of the enemy approach. If Fonstad's distances are correct such deployments would take hours instead of the short time that apparently passes in the story. Tolkien's deployment of skirmishers to delay the enemy approach also does not make sense, one does not send archers out in a thin screen against cavalry (wolf-riders) and expect them to return. Such a deployment would make sense to draw the larger enemy host between the arms of the mountain where the missile troops of both sides could catch them in a crossfire, another reason to have the arms closer together.

Such distances would make more sense to the narrative description of the battle and Thorin's dramatic entrance.

[Snowdog]

Great threa this. Didn't really get into a discussion of the 2nd Battle of the Fords of Isen like the 1st was covered (thanks Rumil). I find this chapter sort of a 'must read' when I get to that part of Two Towers as I thin it important as background as to why things were as they were in Rohan.

Anyway... carry on.

[Rumil]

Oh, hi Snowdog,

it seems to be thread resurrection season at the moment!

A continuation of 'Battles' ? Well, I guess a lot of this sort of thing is available online now, (eg Wiki etc), but yeah, I'll have a think about getting around to it. You know me all too well to expect a concrete date!

Cheers,

Rumil