Who was the old man?

[The Might]

Suddenly Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the fire-light stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. Gimli sprang up, too amazed for the moment to cry out, though at once the thought flashed into his mind that Saruman had caught them. Both Aragorn and Legolas, roused by his sudden movement, sat up and stared. The old man did not speak or make, sign.
'Well, father, what can we do for you?' said Aragorn, leaping to his feet. 'Come and be warm, if you are cold!' He strode forward, but the old man was gone. There was no trace of him to be found near at hand, and they did not dare to wander far. The moon had set and the night was very dark.



It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last night. I am sure of it, even under the light of morning.

'Wait a minute!' cried Gimli. 'There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?'
'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'
'Good, good!' said Gimli. 'I am glad that it was not you.'


The question I have is what did the three see - Saruman or only just a phantom?
It does make sense Saruman perhaps so keen to get his hands on the Ring went as far so as to leave Isengard and go take it himself, but only discovered the corpses of the Uruks and afterwards caused the horses to flee hoping to weaken the three Hunters that way.

However, he was planning much at that time and was preparing to attack at the Fords of the Isen, this makes me doubt him leaving Orthanc at that time.

What is your opinion?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It is of course an open question, and a favorite technique of
Tolkien in using ambiguous interpretations (a technique I rather like).
Saruman was, I think, almost certainly not there in person,
but projecting some sort of wraith works for me in a more
satisfactory way then PJ;s having having Saruman manipulate
Caradhras to cause a snowstorm.

But one aspect of Middle-earth PJ blew was the concept of autonomous
forces for good and evil, hence the "old man" could well have
been some other force then Saruman, however, I think Tolkien's
view of it may have been to 1) create an unresolved suspense 2) put in
another anomolous element (like Tom bambadil).

[Inziladun]

If we take Gandalf's word that is was not he who appeared to the three, it must have been Saruman, whether physically present or not. To me, the presence of another old man who just happened to be in the area and refused Aragorn's offer of fire and company would strain credibility. I would be inclined to think he was actually there, looking for evidence of the Ring, or at least Merry and Pippin.
Even though heavily involved in planning his war on the Rohirrim, I can well imagine his leaving Isengard for a few days to try to find first hand information on the whereabouts of the Ring.
Sorry for the brevity, but I'm at work and duty calls.

[Kitanna]

I always assumed it was Saruman or at least his phantom. If Gandalf had sent a phantom of himself he would have told the three hunters.

I always forget about this part until I read it, then for a few chapters I'm perplexed until I forget about it and the process starts anew when I reread.

afterwards caused the horses to flee hoping to weaken the three Hunters that way.
I seem to recall the horses may have fled not out of fear, but rather they met Shadowfax.
Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy.

If Saruman was a phantom he had made this phantom with such perfection it was taken from flesh and blood which would mean he'd have to make a lot of noise or some great display to scare war horses off. I think rather Saruman (or phantom) was just out wandering about like he was prone to do.
Remember the words of Eomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked.

[alatar]

Saruman.

And didn't Gimli look for boot tracks, but can't remember if he ever found them. And didn't Aragorn say something like they didn't matter? And Legolas would have spotted that it was a phantom, so most likely it was Saruman out for a stroll, and having come across three hunters in the woods - no hobbits, no Rings, etc - he left as the three were of no concern.

And just what was that small rumbling in Fangorn?!?

Or maybe it was Tom Bombadil's shyer brother...;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If we take Gandalf's word that is was not he who appeared to the three, it must have been Saruman, whether physically present or not. To me, the presence of another old man who just happened to be in the area and refused Aragorn's offer of fire and company would strain credibility. I would be inclined to think he was actually there, looking for evidence of the Ring, or at least Merry and Pippin.
Of course it was Saruman, that is clear enough, and the reason for him being out there are just the ones you say. The only question is whether he'd be there in person or just as a phantom.

I have been little puzzled though, if I recall, didn't the old man smile at Aragorn&co? I could imagine that if he found the Orcs dead, and presumed them having the Ring first, he would be scared to death! (Now somebody surely has the Ring - who? Sauron? The Rohirrim? These three guys???) He acted very calm. Okay, maybe that would speak also for that not being Saruman in person - this was just a harmless phantom, Saruman in flesh and blood would have shown the three guys some of his power to get them to answer his questions (or hand over the Ring). The only thing I can think of about stopping a live Saruman from doing that is that he would be more afraid of the three guys than he gave away, possibly afraid of them having the Ring and being powerful enough to use it against them? Or that he thought them merely "some three wanderers", which would be most weird, though: and Elf and a Dwarf, and just by chance close to the place where the Orcs were killed. If he was scared of them, I could imagine him at least scaring away their horses, if he couldn't do anything else. But I find it now actually more probable (after thinking about it) that it was really just a phantom of Saruman, not Saruman himself (although until this far, I presumed it was Saruman, without giving it much thought).

If Saruman was a phantom he had made this phantom with such perfection it was taken from flesh and blood which would mean he'd have to make a lot of noise or some great display to scare war horses off. I think rather Saruman (or phantom) was just out wandering about like he was prone to do.

I think actually the phantom, if it was "done well", may have scared the horses pretty well. He came to them and said "boo boo" and lit his eyes, and there was most likely something unnatural to be felt about the phantom just because it was a phantom. So, if the animals could feel the phantom at all (which they must have, as they reacted - of course all this is done with the assumption that it was indeed a phantom), they would have been very likely to feel something unnatural about it, thus, be far more easily scared. And remember for example the Hobbits' ponies on the Barrow-Downs: they, unlike their masters, knew far better not to get near to the Barrow-Wights, and this may have been a similar thing for the horses.

Or maybe it was Tom Bombadil's shyer brother...

Older brother, eh? Oh no, wait... TB is "Eldest"... in that case, younger brother. Ha, what does it mean then? The Bombadils' look the older, the younger they are! A very interesting contribution to the obscure topic of Bombadilology.

Saruman was, I think, almost certainly not there in person,
but projecting some sort of wraith
Projecting? Hmm... "Lord Uglúk?" "Yes, Master." "We have a new enemy. The young Hobbit who destroyed the Death Star..."

[Kitanna]

I have been little puzzled though, if I recall, didn't the old man smile at Aragorn&co? I could imagine that if he found the Orcs dead, and presumed them having the Ring first, he would be scared to death! (Now somebody surely has the Ring - who? Sauron? The Rohirrim? These three guys???)
Maybe Radagast was just out screwing with the minds of everyone. He was friendly with animals, so perhaps he was out doing a PETA type thing and freeing the horses of Rohan from their bonds.
they would have been very likely to feel something unnatural about it, thus, be far more easily scared.
True but horses make noise when they're scared, neighing, whinnying, stamping of hooves. The horses breaking free is a mystery. Personally I don't think they were scared off. I'm no master on the subject of horses, but I've seen spooked horses and unless the hunters slept like rocks I'd think they'd notice something.

This is quite baffling and it's going to bother me all day. The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked. In which case it would have a Gandalf phantom, but unless Gandalf phantom's appears randomly at its own will I doubt the old man was part of Gandalf.

Maybe alatar is right and it is Bombadil's shy brother. Or it was those pesky elf teens out for a good time again.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked.

I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?

[alatar]

This is quite baffling and it's going to bother me all day. The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked. In which case it would have a Gandalf phantom, but unless Gandalf phantom's appears randomly at its own will I doubt the old man was part of Gandalf.
What a disguise?! Saruman puts on a hat and no one can figure out who he is. :D

But it could be some kind of wizard-walk after effect (i.e. Gandalf could travel faster than one would expect).

[Kitanna]

I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?
I just think Saruman would continue with his usual habits until some form of desperation sets in. And that point he has no reason to be desperate enough to go out and break old habits. I realize how silly the hat is, but I feel it wouldn't have been mentioned if it weren't important. If Saruman decided to make a fashion statement and throw on his old hat there wouldn't be so much mystery surrounding the old man. Stupid as it may sound.

I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism. :p

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism.

Lucky for Sarah Palin Radagast wasn't in Alaska last Thanksgiving. :eek:

[Alfirin]

The Radagast possiblity raises an interesting point. Gandalf says, time and time again that he and Saruman look very alike, or at least, that Saruman would have no trouble whatsoever in looking just like him. This brings up the question, does Radagast also resemble Gandalf so closely, closely enough that he could be mistaken for him? As far as I know, no one in the fellowship, except for Gandalf himself, has actually ever seen Radagast, (though, since Radagast lives near Mirkwoods southern borders, there is a slight chance Legolas has.) Maybe, in the eyes of mere mortal all Ishtari resemble each other a great deal. I have usally though of Radagast as looking a lot younger than Gandalf with a beard that, while long has not yet greyed (maybe it the color, brown wizard, brown beard), but then I usally (Christopher Lee or no Christopher Lee) imagine Saruman as looking a lot younger and better preseved than Gandalf, at bit stockier and with a beard that is much shorter and bushier (imagine a somewhat slimmed down Santa Claus, and you'll have the rough idea) an old man to whome the years apper to have been kinder than they have to Gandalf.
If it is Radagast, then maybe, he is wandering around, keeping an eye on the travelers. Radagast would know Saruman has turned (If nothing else, Gwahir would have likey told him when he left Gandalf, or at least the next time the two of them came in contact.) He might even know about the loss of Gandalf in Moria (say, from a bird who overheard it in Lothlorien or somwhere else along the Fellowships path). the "hiding in the shadows" may simply be because he fears the reprocussions of open rebellion against Saruman (I get the feeling that Radagast is no where near as powerful as Saruman, at least in terms of open one on one conflict.) so he hides in the background, and does what he can to help the fellowship. The freeing of the horses is odd, but maybe it's his attempt to minimize the chances of the hunters detection. Horses may make travel faster, but they also leave a much more obvios trail than three on foot (at least two of whom are skilled in woodcraft). It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).

[Mansun]

The truth here is that knobody knew for sure, not even Gandalf. The only certainty was that it was not Gandalf. But given the symbolic and prophetic warning of the disguise of Saruman by Eomer, the reaction of the 3 hunters when the old man appeared, and of course, Gandalf's guess, it all pointed out to being Saruman. A clever ploy by Tolkein, to stir the reader with fear or uncertainty over a mysterious connotation. Aragorn did not stir too much on the arrival of the old man, however, as it would take much more than this to cause alarm to a Ranger, who already had enough courage to chase off the Lord of the Nazgul and 4 of his servants at night.

[CSteefel]

What I find confusing is that Gandalf says that the old man was not him, but the appearance of the old man is also (apparently) linked with the horses running off. As pointed out, however, the horses were in fact not scared away at all, but were overjoyed to encounter Shadowfax. These two events seem to be linked, but one points to Gandalf (or at least to his horse), the other to somebody other than Gandalf.

This whole issue is made a bit more ambiguous by he fact that there is some blurring of Gandalf's and Saruman's roles as the White Wizard when Aragorn and company encounter him later in Fangorn...

Still, one has to accept Gandalf's emphatic statement that what they saw was certainly not him. In addition, there is no reason why Gandalf would not have revealed himself to the company at this stage if it was him. So the phantom of Saruman seems most reasonable...

[The Might]

I really doubt it was Saruman, as no matter how much he feared them, I doubt it would be too much for him to not try to get the Ring. It was the object of his desires and so if he thought the Three Hunters may have it, he would have surely attacked. Of course, he may have sensed that the Ring was not near and so decided to make an exit.

A phantom also seems somewhat unlikely, although if Saruman had indeed studied the dark arts he may have learned something on this topic. Maybe he just looked into the palantir and thought "ah well, could at least try to annoy them with a spooky ghost".

What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know.
But it does somewaht make sense - Gandalf informed Radagast to tell all the birds and beasts in Mirkwood to round up information on the actions of the Enemy on Midsummer's Day. On September 18 Gwaihir bearing news to Isengard found Gandalf imprisoned. In that time Radagast went to Mirkwood, probably to Rhosgobel and sent out the word and from there it wasn't that far to the eaves of Mirkwood. Especially by taking the Redhorn route he could have made it that far.

The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that.

[alatar]

What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know.

The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that.
I don't think that it could be Radagast for the following reasons:
The Brown One rarely, if ever, traveled.
Of all the Istari, only Gandalf holds true. If Radagast were to take an active role in the War of the Ring, then he too wouldn't be a failure.
If Radagast were to have entered Fangorn, even briefly, Treebeard would have known of it. Gandalf may have too. And yet, when Gandalf is later questioned, he fails to mention Radagast? Not likely...
Radagast would not have driven off the horses. They would have liked seeing him almost as much as Shadowfax as he could speak with them.
Why would he make such a journey/appearance and yet do nothing?!?

It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).
You may have it exactly backwards. Orcs would have attacked three humanoids as, as Peter Jackson's orcs would have said, "Fellas, meat's back on the menu!" They would have been less inclined to attack the Rohirrim, especially after being routed - and if they weren't part of the ones heading for Orthanc, surely they would have known enough about the horse boys to fear them. Anyway...

So I'm still saying it was Saruman. He had no woodcraft, and knew that his Uruks were bringing hobbits to him, and so he appears, albeit clumsily, in Fangorn's edge. Wasn't this the whole reason a little later he unleashes Isengard on Theoden, thinking that one of those horse boys may have carried a ring back to Edoras?

And doesn't someone mention something like, 'for once, Saruman came too late?'

[The Might]

But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.

Is simply makes no sense at all for Saruman himself to see them and then just go away.

Maybe he looked into the palantir to determine their position (keep in mind palantiri were useful as long as there was enough light where the observation took place - the campfire) and then conjured up some evil ghost of himself and sent it their to annoy them.

It could be that just like Sauron, Saruman was so certain of getting the Ring soon that he saw no need to leave Orthanc at all.

[alatar]

But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.

Is simply makes no sense at all for Saruman himself to see them and then just go away.
You may be confused regarding Saruman's knowledge regarding the Three Hunters. He learns all about them via Grima, who learns who these three are when they reach Theoden's door. When Saruman sees the three in the forest, he sees not his Uruks (for which he hoped) nor any hobbits (for which he salivated), just three odd travelers perhaps. Now, having recently commanded his orcs to cut trees from Fangorn, he knows that he's behind enemy lines and so cannot spend too much time on what appears a worthless interrogation. And surely these three played no part in the slaughter and burning of his forces - three against three hundred?

Didn't one of the hobbits remark that Saruman had no real courage (though they were somewhat mistaken)?

If it's not Saruman, then what be the case for it to be anyone else? :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.

Bear in mind, though, that he had no idea who Aragorn was... so besides a Man, an Elf and a Dwarf, there was nothing more to bring his attention about the group.

(EDIT: I see alatar has crossposted with me on the subject)

[Kitanna]

I see other have hit on the fact Saruman wouldn't have needed or known to bother with the three hunters at this point, so I'll forget what I was going to say which has been stated better by others.

However, maybe the old man was a vision of Gandalf sent by someone else. Who? I can't say. But it reads as a sort of foreshadowing that Gandalf is about to return and there is this hatted old man who may have been a vision to the hunters of what was to come. The problem with this theory is who would have had the power to show the three hunters that Gandalf was abroad in the land.

[The Might]

Oh, I was not aware of that... bah, and I thought I know stuff... :confused: FAIL

No, but actually now Kitanna is making a great argument.

Here is my idea after reading her post - Galadriel, who did indeed know of Gandalf's return or the wizard himself managed to implant this thought into the minds of the Three Hunters hoping for them to realise that Gandalf had returned. The horses leaving was only a coincidence caused by Shadowfax' arrival.

To support the idea, I'll be pasting in some quotes from the essay Ósanwe-kenta by Pengolodh, later found by Tolkien and edited in `98 by Hostetter.

The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hröa, for their fëa is united to their hröa and its normal procedure is through the hröa, which is in itself part of Eä, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hröa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.
Affinity may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hröa to hröa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fëar, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fëa to fëa.
Urgency is imparted by great need of the "sender" (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the "receiver" the thought is the clearer received. Authority may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others.
Some would be true in the case of Gandalf.
Affinity- he was their friend, so was she
Urgency - well Gandalf wasn't under any adrenalin rush so this isn't that plausible, although it was important for them to know of his return, also not working for Galadriel that well
Authority - he was after all a "leader" for them and they looked up to him for guidance and so was Galadriel in a way

But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending[i] to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (láta; látie "openness"). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
[i] Tolkien replaced "willing" with "intending" in the act of typing.


So perhaps with the Three Hunters being open to new news of Gandalf and considering his/her superior power it makes sense he may have given them this vision.

Also consider the precedents:

though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. ~ UT, The Istariand also the vision that Frodo had, also surely at Gandalf's desire.

So yeah, kudos Kitanna, I believe your post was most enlightening! ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

However, maybe the old man was a vision of Gandalf sent by someone else. Who? I can't say. But it reads as a sort of foreshadowing that Gandalf is about to return and there is this hatted old man who may have been a vision to the hunters of what was to come. The problem with this theory is who would have had the power to show the three hunters that Gandalf was abroad in the land.

No, but actually now Kitanna is making a great argument.

Here is my idea after reading her post - Galadriel, who did indeed know of Gandalf's return or the wizard himself managed to implant this thought into the minds of the Three Hunters hoping for them to realise that Gandalf had returned. The horses leaving was only a coincidence caused by Shadowfax' arrival.

While an interesting idea, no, I don't actually find it much plausible. The disappearance of the horses WAS actually a deed of the old man, whoever it was, or it was at least connected to his presence. The horses met Shadowfax only a bit LATER (and likely, he saved them from fleeing wildly into the plains). And in either case, what link would there be between Shadowfax over there and the projection of Gandalf by the fire? Actually, the presence of Shadowfax (well, "presence" - he was pretty far away) may have been a reason for the old man (as Saruman) to go away before some "White Rider" comes...

I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".

[The Might]

I doubt that Legate...
I actually believe Gandalf wanted Shadowfax to come and collect the horses needed for the journey.
Take a loot at these quotes from LotR:

'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend,' he said; 'but you are wise and swift and come at need. Far let us ride now together, and part not in this world again!'


'Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?'
'Yes, I knew,' said the wizard. 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land. Swiftly may he bear me back again!'
So it seems that Gandalf did use his mind powers, as seen in Ósanwe-kenta to ask Shadowfax to ride to the edge of Fangorn.
And it seems that even Aragorn was uncertain whether the horses "fled at first in fear". I actually believe that whilst the three were distracted with this vision Shadowfax came by and took the horses with him. I mean, who wouldn't leave if your king rode around?! :D


Also, take a look here:

Remember the words of Éomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked. Those were the words. He has gone off with our horses, or scared them away, and here we are. There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!' 'I mark them,' said Aragorn. 'But I marked also that this old man had a hat not a hood. Still I do not doubt that you guess right, and that we are in peril here, by night or day.

'I see, I see now!' hissed Gimli. 'Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.'

They could not see his face: he was hooded, and above the hood he wore a wide-brimmed hat, so that all his features were over-shadowed, except for the end of his nose and his grey beard.

It seems that Gandalf looked just like the men seen the night before, although he was now hooded - something that may have not been noticed by Aragorn.

So yeah, I hope all that makes sense, enough argumentating for today and all in all I stick to the idea that it was a vision sent by Galadriel.

[alatar]

It's over...though oddly expressed.

He <Saruman> was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not.

And later:
'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman.'

What's odd is the two statements seem to be at odds, as the first seems definitive while the second a guess.

[CSteefel]

The disappearance of the horses WAS actually a deed of the old man, whoever it was, or it was at least connected to his presence. The horses met Shadowfax only a bit LATER (and likely, he saved them from fleeing wildly into the plains). And in either case, what link would there be between Shadowfax over there and the projection of Gandalf by the fire? Actually, the presence of Shadowfax (well, "presence" - he was pretty far away) may have been a reason for the old man (as Saruman) to go away before some "White Rider" comes...

I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".
I like this idea. The horses may well have been spooked by the old man, and then kept from running off completely by the appearance of Shadowfax.

Of course the other possibility is that, if the old man is in fact a phantom, that he did not appear to the horses at all and their only encounter was with Shadowfax.

In any case, it makes no real sense for either Gandalf or Radagast to run off when invited by Aragorn to join the party. Only Saruman makes sense here, and he has the best motivation to be there (in physical or phantom form), since he is trying to find out what happened to his Orc party...

[The Might]

That's a good find, alatar!
So definitely Saruman did come near Fangorn, the problem is I still don't see why he would not do anything but vanish upon seein Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. That somehow does not seem to make sense for me... what if they knew more of what happened to the Orcs? Why would he not use his voice to talk to them and learn more? Makes no sense...

So I still believe it was a vision...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

That's a good find, alatar!
So definitely Saruman did come near Fangorn, the problem is I still don't see why he would not do anything but vanish upon seein Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. That somehow does not seem to make sense for me... what if they knew more of what happened to the Orcs? Why would he not use his voice to talk to them and learn more? Makes no sense...

So I still believe it was a vision...

If you come to Fangorn and find your orcs slain and you get filled with doubt, then you might not be willing to face Aragorn by your self. I do belive that Saruman could have defeated the three, but who is to say if he held the same belief. . .

[The Might]

Well it said Saruman was asking himself whether the Ring had been used in the battle or if Theoden had it and had learned of its powers and so returned to Isengard in order to double and treble his efforts against Rohan.

However, it still makes no sense. Of course it is plausible that Saruman being in the area came along said "Boo!" to the horses and left, but I just can't believe it.

Maybe it was a phantom after all:

Say, are you not a wizard, some spy from Saruman, or phantoms of his craft? Speak now and be swift!'
'We are no phantoms,' said Aragorn, 'nor do your eyes cheat you.

'I wish to see him and learn if he really looks like you.'
'And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf?' said Gandalf. 'Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?

So it seems that actually there were phantoms of Saruman's craft and as Gandalf says Saruman could disguise himself.

Such a difficult topic... ;)

[alatar]

If this 'phantom' ability exists, is it ever used before or after this event? Why I have trouble believing it exists is that Gandalf doesn't use it or comment on it as an 'ability,' nor do we see it used when it would be very convenient to do so.

Kinda like Peter Jackson's Saruman's fireball spell that was absent went he was attacked by creatures comprised of wood. :eek:

[The Might]

Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it?

A very very interesting thing I just found out is this:

'He wore a ring on his finger. [...] For Saruman the White is, as some of you know, the greatest of my craft, and was the leader in the White Council.... But Saruman long studied the arts of the Enemy, and was thus often able to defeat him; and the lore of rings was one of his chief studies. He knew much of the history [of the rings of power >] of the Nine Rings and the Seven, and somewhat even of the Three and the One; and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making. ~ HOME7

If he had indeed come close to the secret of the making of the Rings of Power, that shows his Ring wasn't that weak at all... so why not believe he could conjure up phantoms unknown to Gandalf.

Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.

[alatar]

Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it?
Problem with that (you knew I would find one ;)) is, does any being have this power in Arda or in Middle Earth? A general trend in Tolkien's history is to go from the fantastic to the more normal that resembles much of our world today. Valar and Maiar and Elves retreat and leave humans and a stray hobbit or two. Silmarils give way to ordinary gems. The White Tree in Minas Tirith, though possibly a descendant of Telperion, is still just a tree.

What I am saying is that Saruman may make a new thing or two, but to create a completely new phenomenon never used before or afterwards? Unlikely, at least to me.

If he had indeed come close to the secret of the making of the Rings of Power, that shows his Ring wasn't that weak at all... so why not believe he could conjure up phantoms unknown to Gandalf.
Did any other ring give such a power?

Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.
That never stops me...;)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

My personal suspicion has always been that the "old man" was Saruman, whose mind was so bent on finding out precisely what had happened in that area that he unwittingly projected an image of himself -- his thought, since what he is in uttermost truth is a being of thought, not flesh -- to try to see who was around that campfire, and if any hobbits might be there (especially the Ringbearer). When they addressed him directly, he suddenly realized what he had done, "stepped back" and vanished. My own reasoning is that he is, after all, a Maia, and travel via thought is natural for him in his natural state, but bound to flesh as were all the Istari on this mission, he might be able to do it only in thought -- what might be perceived by others as a "phantom" state. Moreover, he is intensely interested in what happened here, as was indicated by the fact that he actually left the safety of Orthanc to do his own reconnaissance (and was almost caught by the angry Ents). That it was a "phantom" has, in my mind, been supported by Gimli's unease over the lack of footprints at the beginning of "The White Rider" chapter. Legolas dismisses it because of the springy grass, yet he himself says that Aragorn could read even a bent blade -- yet none are mentioned, if I recall correctly.

Under this rationale, it's also possible Gandalf "projected" his own thought as well, also unintentionally; this might be supported by the fact that the "phantom" wore a wide-brimmed hat, as is also how Gandalf is described when he first meets with the three hunters in Fangorn. Either could work, I think; I just lean toward Saruman because Gandalf seemed very certain that they had not seen him. But he could be wrong.

My brain feels rather knotted, now... :)

[alatar]

My concern is that the 'explanation' of the phantom menace violates Occam's Razor, meaning that it makes things even more complicated, when the simpler solution - that Saruman journeyed on foot or physically by some wizardly means - is available and supportable.

And note that Aragorn *could* read a bent blade, but does not make an attempt to do so. If Aragorn states that he cannot find a bent blade, then I would accept the phantom explanation more readily, but Aragorn does not examine any evidence for us to gnaw.

And Gandalf states that Saruman could appear however he wished via the power of his voice (methinks) and so how hard would it be to beguile three sleepy travelers?

And that's enough ands for now.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Lots of ands there, yup. :)

The only problem I have with the "beguiling sleepy travelers" notion is that the "phantom" never speaks. If the power of his voice is being used, then he had to add the "post-hypnotic suggestion" that they never heard him. And if that is the case, then why not just make them think he was never there at all?

A very odd little moment. Maybe it was an illusion sent by the Valar to remind let the hunters know they were soon to encounter someone unexpected. Nah, too many interference problems there, too. *sigh*

[Mansun]

It could have just been an innocent traveller wondering at night, unconcerned by the appearance of the three hunters and minding his own business!

[Inziladun]

Mansun

It could have just been an innocent traveller wondering at night, unconcerned by the appearance of the three hunters and minding his own business!

I'm not going to discount it outright, but that's simply too coincidental for me. JRRT doesn't have a tendancy to make throwaway references in his books, and as I said earlier, the appearance of the old man there and then, yet having no importance to the story, just doesn't ring true to me.
I think Radagast is out of the question for the same reason. He had played a very minor role in the story to that point, and that early on, and there was simply no plausible excuse I can think of that would have brought him to that spot on ME at that time.
There has been some good discussion here about this. I always just believed it to be Saruman and never gave it much thought until now.
The point of the clothing descriptions between Saruman and Gandalf regarding hats and cloaks has been brought up. I don't see that as significant. UT makes mention in the chapter (I think, not having my copy handy) The Hunt for the Ring of Saruman being seen by Hobbits in the Shire and being mistaken for Gandalf. And as others have said, it shouldn't have been much of an effort for Saruman to change clothes.

[The Might]

Ah, alatar, now I understand what you meant. I thought you were asking whether Saruman was known to have had such power before or afterwards, but I see you meant it generally as in the history of M-e. In which case of course there had been others who deeply knowledged in the dark arts used them to conjure up "phantoms".

Take the Barrow-wights raised by the Lord of the Nazgul as a best example not to mention the deeds of Sauron during the First Age.

Actually, the phantom could well fit the characteristics of a wraith as described elsewhere by Tolkien, clad in this case like Saruman and not with some dark cloaks like the Nazgul.

What I am saying with all this is yes, there was a precedent so there is no reason to think that it was no longer possible - the Witch-king had done it like what, a couple of months before?

And you also bring up Occam's razor, something I would rather object to. Why? If we were all judging by this priciple probably a lot of the threads on the forum including this one would not have existed. I would have believed it was Saruman and not questioned it.

And even so, Occam's razor does not necessarily mean that the simplest answer is the right one:

This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. This is, however, incorrect. Occam's razor is not concerned with the simplicity or complexity of a good explanation as such, it only demands that the explanation be free of elements that have nothing to do with the phenomenon (and the explanation). ~ Wikipedia (yes I trust Wikipedia)

Now I do not believe that the idea that it was communication through thought as seen in Ósanwe-kenta or that it was a conjured-up phantom using or not using the forged Ring for that purpose have elements having nothing to do with the phenomenon. They both explain how it could have been possible for the old man to appear and then suddently disapper.

Although I agree that your idea is most likely, the others are plausible and should not be discarded that easily. I was not looking for a clear answer in this thread, I doubt one can be found, what I search for is alternatives.

[alatar]

Ah, alatar, now I understand what you meant. I thought you were asking whether Saruman was known to have had such power before or afterwards, but I see you meant it generally as in the history of M-e. In which case of course there had been others who deeply knowledged in the dark arts used them to conjure up "phantoms".
I may have meant both. Saruman never uses the power before this or afterwards, and I know of no examples of any other 'living' being using such an ability.

Take the Barrow-wights raised by the Lord of the Nazgul as a best example not to mention the deeds of Sauron during the First Age.
The Barrow-wights are dead creatures, and whatever the Witch-King did to make them, he did it to another being, not to himself. And though the wights somehow can move physical objects (like hobbits), which is completely inexplicable to me, they do not appear as visible beings. And I'm not sure what you mean in regards to Sauron. Sure, he shapeshifted, but he did not project this image at a distance.

Actually, the phantom could well fit the characteristics of a wraith as described elsewhere by Tolkien, clad in this case like Saruman and not with some dark cloaks like the Nazgul.
Saruman costumes were all the rage in Rohan, I guess. ;) Too bad the Witch-King didn't wear an Aragorn costume.

What I am saying with all this is yes, there was a precedent so there is no reason to think that it was no longer possible - the Witch-king had done it like what, a couple of months before?
You've not provided me with enough evidence, but that could just be me.

And you also bring up Occam's razor, something I would rather object to. Why? If we were all judging by this priciple probably a lot of the threads on the forum including this one would not have existed. I would have believed it was Saruman and not questioned it.
Hmm...that was not my intent.

And even so, Occam's razor does not necessarily mean that the simplest answer is the right one:
Agreed; though simpler answers are more likely than more complicated solutions. For instance, if I stated that the hooded old man was actually a holographic projection, then I have to argue for the existence of said projector, etc. And note that I have a different definition of Occam's razor:
This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. This is, however, incorrect. Occam's razor is not concerned with the simplicity or complexity of a good explanation as such, it only demands that the explanation provided by the person using the phrase, "Occam's razor" to be accepted in toto. ~ Alatarapedia (yes we all should trust Alatarapedia)

Although I agree that your idea is most likely, the others are plausible and should not be discarded that easily. I was not looking for a clear answer in this thread, I doubt one can be found, what I search for is alternatives.
Agreed, though genetically it's hard for me to ignore evidence as well as extrapolating far beyond the data.

Not to say that I'm right...:)

[The Might]

Whilst constantly trying to prove me wrong, I don't see a lot of proof for you being right.

Ok, so I admit the idea with the wraith was a bit stupid, but can you provide me with proof that Saruman had a good reason to run along, say "boo!" to the horses and run along again without using his voice on the travellers or questioning them.

He needed to know what had happened to the Ring, it was a question that was on his mind as seen in some of the quotes above, so why would he not try to find out something from these three guys, they were after all suspiciously close to the place the Orcs were defeated.

Your idea mentioned earlier was that...

having recently commanded his orcs to cut trees from Fangorn, he knows that he's behind enemy lines and so cannot spend too much time on what appears a worthless interrogationI am sure Saruman had no idea the Ents would have revolted, you see that clearly in the book.

'When the Ents had reduced a large part of the southern walls to rubbish, and what was left of his people had bolted and deserted him, Saruman fled in a panic. He seems to have been at the gates when we arrived: I expect he came to watch his splendid army march out. When the Ents broke their way in, he left in a hurry.So I doubt Saruman felt to be behind enemy lines due to the Ents and considering how much he wanted the Ring it would only be logical for him to try and find out more about what had happened; as we see above he had no idea whether the Orcs were carrying any prisoners, he could have asked them that.

[alatar]

Whilst constantly trying to prove me wrong, I don't see a lot of proof for you being right.
I'm sorry that you're taking it that way. I'm considering your ideas but checking against what is known. I mean nothing personal, and note below where you show my thinking to be addled.

Ok, so I admit the idea with the wraith was a bit stupid, but can you provide me with proof that Saruman had a good reason to run along, say "boo!" to the horses and run along again without using his voice on the travellers or questioning them.
How about this, which is more of the quote that I had supplied earlier?

His <Saruman's> thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Theoden, Lord of the Mark, should by it and learn of its power? That is the danger that he sees, and he has fled back to Isengard to double and treble his assault on Rohan

As you say, we can speculate about that which is not clear, which is to me, "Why didn't Saruman think to question these Three that were so near the battle?" Good question, and we can think of reasonable answers.

That said, it was Saruman that appeared - no question, at least to me.

He needed to know what had happened to the Ring, it was a question that was on his mind as seen in some of the quotes above, so why would he not try to find out something from these three guys, they were after all suspiciously close to the place the Orcs were defeated.
Again, I think that he may have thought (we are talking about a literary character here ;)) that these Three didn't have much to do with the battle, as it was clear the work of the Rohirrim, who left spears, etc.

I am sure Saruman had no idea the Ents would have revolted, you see that clearly in the book.
You got me there; that wasn't well thought (and thank you for bringing it to my attention :)).

[Morthoron]

Based on the limited information supplied (basically from Gandalf), it was Saruman. Everything else is conjecture, which is fine I suppose; but looking at the evidence, nothing else makes sense. It was not a 'shadow' of Saruman, but his actual physical manifestation, because the horses were driven off. Unless, of course, the horses were 'spooked' by a spook.

Please, resume your arguments.

[Mansun]

Based on the limited information supplied (basically from Gandalf), it was Saruman. Everything else is conjecture, which is fine I suppose; but looking at the evidence, nothing else makes sense. It was not a 'shadow' of Saruman, but his actual physical manifestation, because the horses were driven off. Unless, of course, the horses were 'spooked' by a spook.

Please, resume your arguments.

Perhaps it was the spirit of Saruman, the very one that had bewitched Theoden, and on the way back to Isengard having achieved what evil it required. Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.

[alatar]

Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.
And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...:rolleyes: ;)

[Mansun]

And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...:rolleyes: ;)

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk. What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.

[alatar]

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk.
Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ;)...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?

What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.
I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:
Once I do not doubt that he <Saruman> was the friend of Rohan; and even when his heart grew colder, he found you useful still. But for long now he has plotted your ruin, wearing the mask of friendship, until he was ready. In those years Wormtongue's task was easy, and all that you did was swiftly known in Isengard; for your land was open, and strangers came and went.
Friends don't let friends spirit walk. ;)

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.

[Mansun]

Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ;)...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?


I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:

Friends don't let friends spirit walk. ;)

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.


One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible! Could the power of Saruman be measured to such an extent as to rule out a relatively basic operation as creating a spirit of himself in other lands?

[alatar]

One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible!
Agreed. But one also should not consider something to be probable just because it is possible.

And given your statement, I would posit that the old man is actually Fengel. Possible? But of course. Prove that it's not him while I get ready to add another possibility to the list.

[Mansun]

Agreed. But one also should not consider something to be probable just because it is possible.

And given your statement, I would posit that the old man is actually Fengel. Possible? But of course. Prove that it's not him while I get ready to add another possibility to the list.

There is more evidence from the text to support the view that the Old Man in some shape or form was Saruman, of course. My view is that it was a spirit of Saruman, rather than the physical form. The text does, to some extent, support this view, in the eyes of Gimli at least.

[alatar]

There is more evidence from the text to support the view that the Old Man in some shape or form was Saruman, of course.
Not really. The Three see an old man. If they knew it were Saruman, they would have stated thus. The old man looked like Gandalf, and as the Grey One was a wizard, they assumed that this old man may have been Saruman as (1) they were near to Saruman's abode, (2) they'd been chasing the band of the White Hand for days, and so had White Wizard on the noggin, and (3) didn't know of every possible character alive (or possible) in Middle Earth at that time from which to choose. The number of old men known to Gimli and Legolas must have been limited, if they knew any at all, and as Lindir says in Rivendell:

"To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

...meaning that these two could, like Elrond regarding hobbits, have no clue regarding the variations in old male humans and/or those that appear thus.

Had they known it to be Saruman, they would not have asked Gandalf (which they too confused as possibly just some old man) who it may have been. Even Gandalf does not know with any certainty, as he says something like, 'then I guess you must have seen Saruman.' Maybe this creature that they saw is a one-shot, much like Bombadil but with much less documentation.

Of course I'm just arguing the other side. :)

My view is that it was a spirit of Saruman, rather than the physical form. The text does, to some extent, support this view, in the eyes of Gimli at least.
Again, interesting. I would like to read that evidence, if you have time or could point me in the right direction.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps it was the spirit of Saruman, the very one that had bewitched Theoden, and on the way back to Isengard having achieved what evil it required. Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.

Please provide textual evidence that the 'spirit' of Saruman bewitched Theoden. According to Unfinished Tales, Tolkien ascertains that Grima poisoned Theoden, and then Wormtongue used his influence on the drugged king to further Saruman's interests in Rohan. I believe you are having yet another movie moment.

I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

I agree with your assumptions. Theoden, under the influence of Grima, forbade any action against Saruman, even though in September of 3018 Gandalf had sought an audience with Theoden (which was at first denied), and he eventually told the king that he had been held captive by Saruman in Orthanc, but Theoden was incapable of making decisions and deferred always to Grima.

After Theodred's murder (Saruman sent the force of orcs to the Fords of Isen with strict orders to kill Theodred), Erkenbrand assumed control of Rohan's forces and sent word to Meduseld for more troops, but he was denied by Theoden (at Grima's insistence). In essence, thereafter Eomer basically broke a royal edict by attacking the Orcs who held Merry and Pippin captive. He was then arrested on Grima's initiative for defying the King's orders.

It is obvious that anyway laying hands on Saruman's person would have been at least imprisoned, or more likely summarily executed by the order of Theoden. In any case, there is little evidence in the text that Saruman wandered about Rohan in spirit form, and if there is, I should like to see it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Personally, I find the HoME books interesting but not necessarily a good guide to what Tolkien's final thoughts in all matters might be, but there is a passage in "The Treason of Isengard" that has been influential in my thinking on this matter:

In the first draft Gimli asks, 'That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?' and Gandalf replies: 'If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. But as we seem to look so much alike that you wished to make an incurable dent in my hat, I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a vision>] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.]' Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalf's thought. There is clearly an important clue here to the curious ambiguity surrounding the apparition of the night before, if one knew how to interpret it; but these words are not perfectly clear. They obviously represent a new thought: arising perhaps from Gandalf's suggestion that if it was not Saruman himself that they saw it was a 'vision' or 'wraith' that he had made, the apparition is now to emanate from Gandalf himself. But of whom was it a vision? Was it an embodied 'emanation' of Gandalf, proceeding from Gandalf himself, that they saw? 'I look into his unhappy mind and I see his doubt and fear,' Gandalf has said; it seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see. I have found no other evidence to cast light on this most curious element in the tale; but it may be noted that in a time-scheme deriving from the time of the writing of 'Helm's Deep' and 'The Road to Isengard' my father noted of that night: 'Aragorn and his companions spend night on battle-field, and see "old man" (Saruman).'

This does not answer the question for certain, of course, since it is Christopher's speculation concerning his father's intention, but the concept of the person seen at the fire being a "vision" created by thought was JRRT's, not his. In my own thought, if this was indeed a "projected" image and not a real person, and if it is indeed of Saruman rather than Gandalf (which, be it physical or illusory, JRRT seemed most inclined to identify it as Saruman; it shows up repeatedly in notes and drafts), it feels more logical (to my mind at least) for it to originate from Saruman rather than Gandalf. This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.

[Mansun]

Again, interesting. I would like to read that evidence, if you have time or could point me in the right direction.

That has already been answered in the very first thread post. A phantom = a spirit? Not impossible.


Tolkien ascertains that Grima poisoned Theoden, and then Wormtongue used his influence on the drugged king to further Saruman's interests in Rohan. I believe you are having yet another movie moment.

If Theoden was poisoned, it could have killed him given his age. And how did Gandalf manage to wear off the poison by his appearance alone in the Golden Hall? Whatever you are ascertaining above, give more detail please. Quote the full text from the source.

[alatar]

That has already been answered in the very first thread post. A phantom = a spirit? Not impossible.
Sorry; I'm not willing to make that leap without further evidence. Gimli's remark is not that of an expert. He uses the word phantom as he's not sure how to describe the event otherwise. Later he wants to look for boot prints, which, if he truly believed it was a phantom/spirit/non-corporeal being as you believe, then he wouldn't have thought to do so.

On the other hand, I was reading the FotR chapter, "A Journey in the Dark," where the Fellowship are attacked by those wolf creatures. These are physical creatures, as they are harmed by physical weapons, but disappear at morning's light, and so may be more phantom-like.

This, to me, is some evidence that such things such as phantoms can exist, though it still does not explain Saruman's appearance.

[The Might]

The quote provided by Ibri is in my opinion of great importance, as we see that neither Tolkien nor his son seem to have had a clear idea about what the old man represented, although indeed it does seem to point to a physical presence of Saruman. However, it also shows that a phantom, or a projection of Gandalf are possibilities.

[Morthoron]

If Theoden was poisoned, it could have killed him given his age. And how did Gandalf manage to wear off the poison by his appearance alone in the Golden Hall? Whatever you are ascertaining above, give more detail please. Quote the full text from the source.

I will indeed supply you with the text (although I've seen neither hide nor hair of any textual proof I asked you to submit regarding Theoden being 'bewitched' by Saruman's spirit):

...But it [Theoden's malady] may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Grima. In any case, Theoden's sense of weakness and dependence on Grima was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions.

'If this is bewitchment,' said Theoden, 'it seems to me more wholesome than your whisperings. Your leechcraft ere long would have me walking on all fours like a beast.'

As you can see, there is never a direct reference to Saruman regarding Theoden's stuppor (drowsiness, a sure sign one is drugged), and Grima is held responsible for the prolonged and addled dependence of Theoden. In addition, Theoden himself uses the word 'leechcraft', which by definition refers to archaic medicinal practices. In an analogical sense 'honey in the ear' is whispered lies as well as a non-invasive method of introducing poison into the body.

[alatar]

As you can see, there is never a direct reference to Saruman regarding Theoden's stuppor (drowsiness, a sure sign one is drugged), and Grima is held responsible for the prolonged and addled dependence of Theoden. In addition, Theoden himself uses the word 'leechcraft', which by definition refers to archaic medicinal practices. In an analogical sense 'honey in the ear' is whispered lies as well as a non-invasive method of introducing poison into the body.
Far be it for me to argue with the Professor, but I would think that 'poison' is too strong a word. Drugging need not be poisoning at some dosage, as we acetaminophen users know. Could Grima been 'dosing' Theoden with some type of narcotic that dulled his mind?

But pharmacopeia doesn't seem like Saruman's thing, but more like something Radagast would use. Could it have been more of the psychic drugging, like the mental abuse a torturer uses to break the will of a captive - nothing physical, just relentless words that darken the listener's skies?

If it truly were a physical poison, then how did Gandalf cure such a thing, as we don't see him curing anything, even the Black Breath, later in the Houses of Healing?

[Morthoron]

Far be it for me to argue with the Professor, but I would think that 'poison' is too strong a word. Drugging need not be poisoning at some dosage, as we acetaminophen users know. Could Grima been 'dosing' Theoden with some type of narcotic that dulled his mind?

The word 'poison' is an older word than 'drug' (poison is the Middle French variant of the Latin 'potio' or potion as we know it, whereas drug is derived from the Middle-English 'drogge' and dates to no earlier than the 14th century, but 'poison' can be found in Middle-English texts as early as the 11th century). Knowing Tolkien's penchant for a turn of a word, the use of 'poison' (and he would know it was a derivative of the stem of 'potion') can mean a 'liquid dose', and there is also the metaphoric meaning as in 'to poison one's mind'. Therefore, it would seem that Tolkien would prefer to use the older term and its double meaning, just as Theoden speaks of 'leechcraft' (and the word 'leech' fits Grima nicely, doesn't it?), rather than more modern medical terminology.

But pharmacopeia doesn't seem like Saruman's thing, but more like something Radagast would use. Could it have been more of the psychic drugging, like the mental abuse a torturer uses to break the will of a captive - nothing physical, just relentless words that darken the listener's skies?

If it truly were a physical poison, then how did Gandalf cure such a thing, as we don't see him curing anything, even the Black Breath, later in the Houses of Healing?

I have not heard that Radagast was into psychotropics (but, of course, Hobbits were into 'shrooms). It would seem to me that Saruman would indeed engage in developing poisons, or mind-altering drugs, as part of his studies (after all, he was pretty handy with gunpowder, another newfangled innovation). The wording Tolkien uses regarding Grima and poisoning seems to indicate that the original malady Theoden suffered was either 'induced' or 'increased' by Grima's poison or potion, but that the actual prolongation of this malady was due more to Grima's subtle and insidious mind manipulation rather than regular dosing; hence, when Gandalf drags Theoden out into the sunlight, the king was not necessarily under the influence of any mood-modifier, and therefore is able to eventually stand without assistance.

From a strictly deductive standpoint, I don't think any magic or Sarumanic incorporeal manifestations were necessary in debilitating Theoden.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Saruman may not have been into the use of poisons on his enemies, but apparently, Grima was. At the very beginning of "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" in UT, Tolkien writes:

The chief obstacles to an easy conquest of Rohan by Saruman were Theodred and Eomer: they were vigorous men, devoted to the King, and high in his affections, as his only son and sister-son; and they did all that they could to thwart the influence over him that Grima had gained when the King's health began to fail. This occurred early in the year 3014, when Theoden was sixty-six; his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Grima. In any case Theoden's sense of weakness and dependence on Grima was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions.

I wasn't looking for that, but happened to be collecting books scattered around the house and came upon my old beater copy of UT, which, of course, I had to leaf through. That passage just happened to catch my eye; make of it what you will. :)

[CSteefel]

This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.
This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

[Inziladun]

CSteefel

This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

I wonder if Saruman might not have been afraid to utilize the Palantír of Orthanc at that point. He had been communicating with Sauron for some time, and Sauron had been able to dominate him through it. Saruman had to have been well aware that Sauron could wrest control away from him at any time and demand an account of his doings. Recall what Pippin reported his Questioner saying during his glance at the Stone.

So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?
TT p. 219
Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time.
As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.

[Morthoron]

I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.

So, it wasn't a high-def Palantir then?

But I agree with you, the Palantiri were not astral projectors. What one viewed in the stones could be manipulated -- as Sauron did to Denethor -- but Sauron did not jump out on the Steward in his room in the White Tower.

[CSteefel]

CSteefel
I wonder if Saruman might not have been afraid to utilize the Palantír of Orthanc at that point. He had been communicating with Sauron for some time, and Sauron had been able to dominate him through it. Saruman had to have been well aware that Sauron could wrest control away from him at any time and demand an account of his doings. Recall what Pippin reported his Questioner saying during his glance at the Stone.


TT p. 219
Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time.
As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.
Yes, good points--it seems you shot down my (short lived and speculative) theories.

I can find nothing about the Palantir working as "projectors", as you mentioned. Obviously they could be used to see, suggesting that Saruman could have spied on the three travelers (in the UT, there is a detailed description of how Denethor might have seen what was happening in Rohan, including "zoom ins"). But any form of communication/projection of an image seems to require a second Palantir. But as you also suggest, there is good evidence that Saruman had not used the Palantir recently, fearing rightfully that as soon as he did so, Sauron would appear. This certainly would have been the last thing he wanted, since it would have presumably given away the fact that he had organized a party to try to obtain the ring for himself.

On the subject of phantoms or visions, there is the case of where Sauron in the 1st Age managed to fool Gorlim, one of Barahir's group in Dorthonion, by presenting a vision or phantom of his wife Eilinel. This would indicate that a Maiar sorcerer is capable of such "magic", so maybe Saruman is as well. However, this doesn't really explain what would be Saruman's motivation for presenting a vision to the three travellers--what purpose is accomplished?

[alatar]

I don't have my book in front of me, but in the Chapter 'The Voice of Saruman,' we learn that Saruman has the ability to just 'pop up.' Reread the text where he is summoned by Gandalf. It goes something like, 'everyone is astonished as Saruman just appears, as no one heard him approach.'

So, by whatever means, if he can show up in a 'poof' kind of way for a company that includes humans, hobbits, horses, a dwarf, an elf, some ents and a white wizard - and be there physically - surely he can do it in reverse, and just poof out.

And if I remember my AD&D correctly, this is some feat, as Rangers are rarely surprised...Peter Jackson's ranger not withstanding.

[The Might]

Ok, that is a legitimate argument, although you must admit there is a difference between disappearing from an open field and appearing at a rail. In one case it's just a step away from not being seen in the other many.

But yeah, the astonishment of those present does remind of the old man's disappearence, it does all in all point towards Saruman as the culprit that night.

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...:Merisu:

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...

Maybe he would if he sensed another Power -- Gandalf -- in the area. I've always wondered why Saruman seemed completely unsurprised by Gandalf's presence on the steps of Orthanc after the battle. Did he have no news that Gandalf had died in Moria? Enquiring minds want to know... :)

[alatar]

Ok, that is a legitimate argument, although you must admit there is a difference between disappearing from an open field and appearing at a rail. In one case it's just a step away from not being seen in the other many.
Very much agreed. The probability of appearing at the rail, having been summoned and being expected, is very high...and yet the group I name (in the author's words) are astonished. How much more astonishing then for him to appear - then disappear -where he is not expected nor summoned?

But yeah, the astonishment of those present does remind of the old man's disappearence, it does all in all point towards Saruman as the culprit that night.
Like you, I'm holding out for the DNA evidence.

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...:Merisu:
I'm with you, though it does make the writing of the scene easier. ;)

And regarding the palantir allowing one to 'hologram' to another place...I just can't get the image out of my mind of Saruman being in the shower and Sauron popping into the bathroom. :D

[Morthoron]

Perhaps the old man was neither Gandalf or Saruman. Maybe, just maybe, it was C.S. Lewis poking around Middle-earth in search of good place names for his Narnia series.

[Kitanna]

Perhaps the old man was neither Gandalf or Saruman. Maybe, just maybe, it was C.S. Lewis poking around Middle-earth in search of good place names for his Narnia series.
But his role in Middle-Earth was embodied in Treebeard. ;)

[Gwathagor]

Perhaps the old man was neither Gandalf or Saruman. Maybe, just maybe, it was C.S. Lewis poking around Middle-earth in search of good place names for his Narnia series.

Or perhaps for That Hideous Strength, since he more or less plagiarizes the term "Numinor."

[alatar]

For what it's worth, the quote I alluded to previously is:

They looked up, astonished, for they had heard no sound of his coming; and they saw a figure standing at the rail, looking down upon them: an old man, swathed in a great cloak, the colour of which was not easy to tell, for it changed if they moved their eyes or if he stirred.

[CSteefel]

For what it's worth, the quote I alluded to previously is:

Good allusion here. I think it does lend further credence to the idea that it was Saruman, although whether himself (I doubt it) or a phantom/vision is not 100% clear...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

alatar, the detail I noticed in that quote is the cloak: ...a great cloak, the colour of which was not easy to tell, for it changed if they moved their eyes or if he stirred. Now that sounds more like a technicolour dream coat than a robe of white, which is what Gandalf had at this time. Granted, it is part of the ambivalence that surrounds the old man; however, Gandalf may have appeared to others cloaked in grey robes to hide the white, but I don't recall an instance of Gandalf the White appearing in a deceptive manner.

[alatar]

Good allusion here. I think it does lend further credence to the idea that it was Saruman, although whether himself (I doubt it) or a phantom/vision is not 100% clear...
Again, we have no evidence that 'phantoms' and 'visions' are things that occur in Middle Earth. Though as explanations they may be possible, how much more probable that it simply was the old man himself, with his colour-changing cloak, and his ability to 'just appear' (and assuming then the opposite ability).

The harder issue to explain was his reason for leaving so rapidly, and my only hypothesis there is that he thought he had found himself within a bad joke, and so decided to get out as soon as possible.

"An Elf, a Ranger and a Dwarf are sitting in a forest..."

[Morthoron]

alatar, the detail I noticed in that quote is the cloak: Now that sounds more like a technicolour dream coat than a robe of white, which is what Gandalf had at this time. Granted, it is part of the ambivalence that surrounds the old man; however, Gandalf may have appeared to others cloaked in grey robes to hide the white, but I don't recall an instance of Gandalf the White appearing in a deceptive manner.


Gandalf noticed that Saruman's cloak was no longer white while in Orthanc (just prior to his imprisonment atop the tower); it was, rather, a dazzling array of all colors.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Precisely.

[Morthoron]

Another neat parallel in the story is that Saruman's robes actually eventually turn gray (muddy, bespattered, torn) after Gandalf's become white. Sort of mirroring one's ascension and one's decline in a literal/visual manner rather than merely figuratively.