Feanor - Overrated?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I have just read the Silmarillion for the first time and think its fantastic. Before I read it I had seen a lot of quotes and posts related to the book and from it I was able to gauge a few of the important characters. The name of Feanor comes up more often than most. I started reading the Silmarillion thinking that Feanor was this really awesome guy, a total hero, and ended up thinking that he's the most overrated character in Tolkien's books I've yet come across.
Can anyone argue the case for Feanor? I could be swayed rather easily but we'll see.

[Orome]

How do you think he is overrated? He is the best smith ever, aside from Aule, the High King of The Noldor, and extremely charismtic, not to mention a nasty fighter.

[piosenniel]

Can you first tell us what you mean by 'hero'.

Also, what are your reasons for thinking him over-rated?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sorry about that first post, it didn't really explain much did it?
The guy was so arrogant, he really thought he was that much better than everyone else which, I think was unjust.
He was really cold to his half-brothers. Face it, they didn't deserve to be treated like that.
He was so possesive. I know those jewels were NICE and all but it wasn't his light was it now?
And he just didn't want to help. Give them back their light, help them out. I mean, they did create you.
And, of course, he killed the Teleri and burned those ships.

He may have been gifted but I don't rate him.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh, and lest I forget about those horrible sons he produced. I hold him at least partially responsible for the existence of Celegorm and Curufin.

And by partially I mean a lot.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I see your point, Feanor was arrogant and unjust. But I like him smilies/biggrin.gif He's exciting. He was just corrupted. He basically was good, but he didn't see straight, and he acted out of his hatred rather then his heart. He acted too quickly. He should have thought things out. And he was proud, most of all. He didn't want to be told what to do. He hated Morgoth so much, and he wanted those jewels back, he would have done anything to get them back.

[burrahobbit]

Great is not the same as good.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think although Feanor was a bad guy (in the end) he was extremely important to everything that happened in Middle Earth in the First Age, whether it was good or not. He led the Elves to MiddleEarth and made that darned oath about the Silmarils. That got the split between the elves. The Silmarils he created also gave the elves motivation to fight Morgoth. So he wasn't overrated, just a creep.

[O'Boile]

Feanor was a hero, but he had a fatal flaw (something a hero always has in trageties). His was that he was too arogant. This leads to him taking the oath to retrieve the Silmarils... something that was impossible. The oath drives him to do many deeds that were less than heroic (ie. attacking the Teleri, burining the ships). It also ultimately causes the deaths of a large number of elves.
He is the greatest of all elves, but his mistakes also cause him to be one of the worst. A good analogy may be to Saruman. He was the most powerful wizard, but Gandalf is greater due to is wisdom and resistance to the temptation of power.

[Belin]

The great/good distinction is actually a really interesting one. However, I am not going to dive into it at the moment, since this thread is about Feanor specifically.

I'm not sure what you mean by "overrated," Eomer... Feanor is certainly not the character that accomplishes the most good deeds (although some of his accomplishments were impressive, such as revising the alphabet and of course making the Silmarils). However, he is a very attractive character in many ways. He's an absolutely brilliant rhetorician (reading his speeches makes me want to go to war, even though I really think his little rebellion was a dumb idea, and I'm a coward besides), and I always think of him as extraordinarily charismatic, able to garner followers with no great effort and capable of being loved by all.

He did some very, very, very bad things, and possibly the worst part of that is the loss of his great potential for good. The Valar

mourned not more for the death of the Trees than the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him.

That pretty much sums it up, I think.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Rimbaud]

Yes, Ibai, you tapped into that nicely. Tolkien swept a great deal of tragi-mythic figures into his creation of Feanor. I believe Tolkien to have been inordinately proud of greating such a dichotomatic character; to have him as such be appealing to readers must have made him pleased.

I also have been fascinated by Feanor. The parallels with the Lucifer myth are many yet i do not wish to open that can of worms too far. I prefer to think of him as the archetypal anti-hero. I am reminded of the thread where some bright soul wrote of Tolkien's ability to create archetype-devourers. (Memory returns, it was the fine Valid Criticisms thread).

If I had more time I would write further on this matter. The characters of Tolkien that are the most naturally gifted often turn out to use such talents poorly. See Saruman et al. Indeed, Melkor.

[Maédhros]

To me, Feanor is absolutely the best character in the Sil. He's one of the only characters that people have very strong emotions. You either like him or hate him, I don't think i ever met someone who was indifferent to Feanor.
I point that is missing in this discussion, is that there was a flaw in the bringing up of Feanor. His mother refused to return ever to her body and Finwe was the only parent he knew.
His parents had flaws: Míriel failed her son and husband because she didn't want to return to her hroa and Finwe failed her wife because he didn't give her the time for her to heal and used the excuse that he wanted more children.

[akhtene]

Feanor was a rebel who dared to rise against powers much stronger than he. And he was seeking justice (at least what he believed was just). Of course he was rash and thoughtless from the start, but for many of us the one who dares to rise against powers for a (seemingly) fair cause acquires some romantic image.
Another thing - Feanor's role in the history of Middle-Earth. Whatever his intentions were, but he brought High Elves back to M-E. Without this deed of his we could have never known Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elrond etc. And what would have become of Men? The elves who had remained in M-E didn't seem to care much for Men (or am I wrong here?) But Noldor befrended some of them and anywhay they resisted Morgoth and Sauron to the last.

So I believe that the role Feanor played for M-E couldn't be underrated. As for his personal qualities and means he used - everyone can judge.

[Losthuniel]

i, personally, sympathize and pity Feanor. I guess one of the reasons i like him is because he is NOT they typical hero
And i belive the reason Miriel died was stated in the Silmarillion (which i do not have with me, so its not an exact quote)
"The stregth that could have nourished many all went into Feanor"
Basically, she gave all her stregth to Feanor, and she died.

"Great Kings are not always Good Men"

[Eol]

I would have to agree that he is a way , an anti-hero. However I will not go as far as to call him evil or good. Good and Evil are merely points of view. And the whole satan( meaning ANY advisary) thing, were you meaning to compare Lucifer to Melkor or to Feanor? I feel if you were to look at that in a mythological perspective, Melkor would be more befitting for the Lucifer part rather then Feanor, for his only a being that does have faults and weakness and can die.

In the beinging of the Silmarillion it mentioned that Feanor was known for having a firy spirit. In every essenes that is true. He had a tempter, Melkor found this out the hard when he had the door slammed in his face attempting to get to the Silamrils.

I feel the whole purpose to writing Feanor was the take all of those human traits that we love and harbor ourselves and create a perfectly mundane character. THere is an intensity to this guy, unfortunatly no too many people dicuss or devote any artword to the inspiration.
To the comment of being overrated....well I feel that was improper and unclear. This "elf" did a great deal of stuff, created turmoil, the silmarils and threatened Fingolfin's life. If you really want to know more of this guy, I have cliffnotes of the Silmarillion on my website wwww.geocities.com/thestyl/tolkien_index.com

I personally find Feanor extremely fasinating for several reason: one being that he is a very intense character, reacting to his environment, he is vurnable to his own flaws and his very essense can be found with other mythiological characters.
If you were to find such characters, who would they be and why would you associate Feanor to them?

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I totally agree that Feanor is a fantastic character, much like I think that Sauron, Melkor, Gollum and Saruman are fantastic characters who contribute to an amazing story.

It's just that if I was in Middle Earth, I wouldn't see eye to eye with him.

[Losthuniel]

no one saw eye-to-eye with Feanor

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

At least some of his sons did I think.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Yeah, most of them did. Like Curunir and Celegorm.

[Legolas]

I still don't see what you mean by "overrated." No one ever stated that he was the Aragorn or Gandalf of the First Age. He's never been labeled a great hero - he's just a very intersting character. Given that you've put a lot of thought into his character for your posts, I'd say Tolkien succeeded in making him a thought-provoking character.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

...much like I think that Sauron, Melkor, Gollum and Saruman...

I don't think it is very fair to place Feanor in comparison with these four characters. Feanor had some flawed, in our opinions, views near the end, but they certainly were not anywhere near as evil as these four. He was after all, still a very noble, powerful elf.

As far as the Silmarils and his unwilling to let them go, what do you expect. Morgoth himself desire these above all other object in Middle Earth. The Valar themselves loved them dearly. If such powerful beings that never desired physical objects, found these jewels fantastic, how do you think an elf would react, especially the maker. He was very protective over his own work. True the light from these jewels came from the trees of Yavanna, but Feanor was so blinded by his lust over his own craftsmanship, no one could reason with him.

You have to consider Melkor's interference as well. He is what really tipped the scales in Feanor's case. He put those seeds of evil thought into Feanor's head, and then stole them and killed Feanor's dad, whom he loved above all other things. I believe Feanor loved his dad more than the Silmarils. If all this happened to you, I think you'd blow up too. You have to look at the bigger picture than just Feanor.

Tolkien did not say elves were perfect. Elves have just about the same emotions as men, and many act on these emotions just as men do. Feanor had an extremely strong fire within him, so that reflects outwardly in his actions and his character.

Feanor was the greatest of the Noldor, I don't think Tolkien specifically stated he was the greatese elf. But I could be wrong (please tell me if I am). The Noldor were known for their stubborness, in comparison to the Teleri and Vanyar (i.e. Turgon's over confidence in Gondolin). Since Feanor was the greatest Noldor, than he'd probably be the most stubborn, don't you think.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It was just my first impression of Feanor, before reading the Sil, that he was the big star of the book. This was because of numerous threads on the forums and some of the little quotes the Downs has on the top of the pages.

I thought he'd be the main hero in the book, which is pretty silly because it's not that type of story.

[Everdawn]

Call me strange, but i rather liked Feanor. He stuck to his guns and i like that in a person... even if it was evil. On the up side, yes, he was a great smith. But when i think of Feanor and his family, i cant help but think how his wife must have felt.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

He had a temper, Melkor found this out the hard when he had the door slammed in his face attempting to get to the Silmarils.

Throughout the entire rest of the Silm, I never once laughed as hard as I did when I read that part! I mean, this Elf (I don't care if he was the 'best' of all Children) just slams his door in Melkor's face! It was great. And people criticize Feanor... He slammed a door in the Supreme Bad Guy's face!

Okay, I think I've exausted the door/face subject now though. And I don't really think that Feanor is overrated, and he's not really a bad guy. He was just corrupt. (full definitions and descriptions and examples of 'corrupt', 'good', and 'evil' can be found on the thread All Those Good Guys). Being corrupted (especially by someone as powerful as Melkor) is like being drunk (sort of). You get the straight path of 'goodness', and you get the twisted and distorted path of 'wrong'. If you're drunk/corrupt, you won't be able to walk that straight line no matter how hard you try! (Unless you're only a teensy bit corrupt... smilies/wink.gif ) Feanor was corrupted by Melkor, and the loss of the Trees, the rape of the Silms, and the murder of his dad sent him over the deep end. So now we have a corrupt nutcase with a really bad temper, and he wants his treasure back, not to mention satisfaction for the killing of his father. Does it really surprise anyone that Feanor did all of the stuff that he did?

Fea

[Novnarwen]

and he acted out of his hatred rather then his heart


I don't think that's true...

(I know I am a bit out of the discussion... Just had to reply..)

He was obsessed with the Silmarills, his heart desired them, and wanted them for himself, for all time. Even though, he knew Yavanna created the two trees, where the light from The Silmarills came from. He didn't hate the Silmarills. Therefore I think it's wrong saying he acted by his hatred. He was not willing to give them to Yavanna when she asked, because Fëanor simply loved his own work. The Silmarills were prescious to him. (*ooo that sounded Gollum-ish*)

I know that's only one example. But I think that proves that he followed his heart. his heart was just a bit... desireble..

Just my opinion though..

When you say overrated, I am not quite sure. There are no doubts about how good a smith he was. But I think he got a bit arrogant or swollen. You see, I think he wanted people to look at him as "the best" (after Aüle, of course). And he forgot why he was a smith.

And I also think he thought something like:Now-I've-made-the-prettiest-jewels-of-all-time,-no-need-to-continue-trying-to-improve.-And-best-of-all:I-have-them!! MWHAHAHA

Suddenly he was only thinking about himself... eh..


Very well..

*Nova* smilies/biggrin.gif

[Cúdae]

I can see what Eomer means by "over-rated" here. If you haven't read the Silmarillion and have only heard babbling on and on about this Feanor person, it's easy to think that he was some hero central to the story. Then, alas, you discover he was near being a raving madman. I wonder if Mandos has straight jackets... smilies/biggrin.gif

Anyway, I do like Feanor (even though I am one of the few, the proud, the Caranthir-obsessed) and regard him as both hero and villain. He was heroic in the light of his intentions. He wanted, I think, to do something good- or at least worthwhile in the long run- but unfortunately it backfired on him. I think that when he made the Oath, he had the best of intentions deep within him, if not apparent on the outside. Reading that section of the Sil, it seems to me that Feanor is more misguided in his judgements than evil. Meaning what he does to try to improve things reverse on him. And ultimately, they lead him to his death and to his sons deaths. On the subject of his sons deaths, I am sure he never meant for that to happen. He wasn't the best of parents, but I do firmly believe that he wanted the best for his children. And the best, in his eyes, may have been the Silmarils.

That was all just my speculation. smilies/smile.gif

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm just meandering through the Downs and once again I stumble across the words 'Feanor' and 'Overrated'. Ah...I had forgotten about this thread.

I'd like to ask you all to discuss the topic of Feanor in all its forms, and not discuss why I was wrong to use the word 'overrated'. Thanks. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Feanor 'overrated?' No. Can't be. He was exactly as good as Tolkien wrote. Not everyone can slam a door in a Dark Lord's face, lead an army into exile, fight a Balrog, manage seven sons, create the most precioussss jewels ever and have enough guts to swear an Oath.

He certainly was rash and a bit *crazy*, but vital and very very interesting. And let's face it. No Feanor - no Silmarillion.

One more point. Being the only kid in Aman without a mother can affect one. And his father marrying again only because

he wanted to bring many children into the bliss (not the exact quote, but my Sil is far far away).
Quite selfish of Finwe, I think.

- Aredhel

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ]

[Dior]

In my opinion, Feanor only turned bad when he was such a jerk to his half-brothers. I think Fingolfin has to be my favorite elf in the Silm., and he actually tried to reconcile with Feanor, but Feanor just used him. I don't think that when Feanor refused to give the Vala his jewels it was that bad because at least it was just a pride issue. But when he was so treacherous with his brothers, he actually stepped over the line, and drew his sword on Fingolfin. It may have been Morgoth's lie spreading techniques, but Feanor was the only one to act so rashly. Because of his spirit, he was too easily influenced by evil, which made him an antagonist.

[StarJewel]

The fact that Feanor grew up w/o a mother may have damaged him in more ways than one. He couldnt relate to his half brothers( the sword on Finglofin comes to mind), treated his wife very badly, and really helped to screw up some his kids. It was almost like he had a beef with the world, and his rash, cretin-like actions may have come from this. He was brave, smart, and willing to smash a door on Melkor, so, all in all, he wasn't all bad. He was pretty cool. Besides, any guy who can manage seven kids has something going for him smilies/wink.gif

[Måns]

Hmmm... Grwoing up without a mother.. being evi... I just don't seem to get the link. If we are going to blame it upon the parents, Finwe did little or nothing to calm his son down, even when he turned nasty against his brothers. What I don't see is the problme with evil. I am fascinated by evil as a phenomenon and from what I have seen, it is never the entirely dominant part of a person. I could, right now, anytime, say that Hitler and Stalin ahd many good sides, for example both were genious politicians, Hitler was a phenomenal speaker and his Soviet adversary was a good golf player. That I say while I am aware of waht they did towards people, people like you and me who had done nothing towards them. I say this to make the situation around Fëanor a little more complex. He was, I should think, intoxicated by his own greatness and glory, took advice from no one and who wouldn't have had a boosted confidence? He had made the Silmarils and otehr precious item, he had dared revolt against teh valar , crossed the ocean and beaten Melkor in battle. Everybody has felt that taht invincible and great at some time and his feeling comes out strongly at comments like: "Maybe you will see that Illuvatar has lit in em a stronger flame than you think!" He is a human, and a masterly portrayed one.

Måns

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

It was not the loss of his mother that made Feanor like he was. It was just him; he is naturally that way.

I think I can see what you mean, Eomer. But I would not personally call him 'overrated'. He was a very great Elf, as we know -- the greatest in power of spirit and in works of craft -- but it is true that he was not a nice person. It is often so with geniuses, I suppose -- for some reason or other, they are often not normal in other ways than just being genius-ish. That is, I mean, they are often wierdos =/. Feanor was reckless, ruthless and deserved his punishment, but that does not take away from the fact that he was an incredible figure.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Somehow, I can't stop reading these threads about Fëanor...an addiction, I suppose! Another view: Fëanor was the "greatest of the Noldor," and the Noldor were known for their love of artifice and skill with creation of "things." Thus, their greatest danger is becoming enamoured of these things, rather than valuing the artistry that goes into making them. Thus, Fëanor is intoxicated with his creation, the Silmarils, and knows them to be unique and un-recreatable--just as Yavanna knows she cannot recreate the Two Trees. I suppose a great danger and a good niche for evil to enter into is the love of the creation over the love of creating--the love of things, rather than of the art that goes into making them. Perhaps this ties into Tolkien's mistrust of technology and its infinite capacity to be perverted in the wrong hands. And Fëanor's works seem to be the nexus for this, even into the LOTR: the Palantiri were his creations, after all. His descendant, Celembrimbor, was the maker of the Great Rings (at least the Elven ones, my memory fails here).

I can't think of anything else right now, but I am enjoying this discussion!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Måns]

Why Fëanor is the most fascinating has interested me a lot... I mean, after all, he WAS quite nasty and arrogant too, not the typical hero guy that is. My thesis is that what makes him so captivating is that he is human in another way than many other characters in ME. Túrin is human because iof his grief and rashness and rage, Boromir because he is split between good and evil, wants to do good but with power by which he is intoxicated. The difference between him and Fëanor is, of course, in level and that Boromir was enchanted by what he COULD do with the Ring and it's power, but it did not make him arrogant. I think all humans have had the feeling tha they are simply supreme and being absorbed with their own boundless capacity, no matter what one sais. He IS the greatest and he knows that and he has the very human doubt over what is the meaning of life. Wehn he sais that his flame is great (which it indeed is) he insinuates that he exists for something, he is meant to do something great! He cannot just stay in Valinor with his endless possibilities and, this is were he differs from most people, is ready to do anything to get what he wants, which in the end is his destruction.

Måns

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Lyta, that's a very interesting thought. If I may take it a step further; I believe that Feanor considered both of these things, the art of the making and the final object, to be the same. It was his art that had created the Silmarils, that was why they existed, he considered them his because of that. The feeling you get is not so much that he was proud of their making, but possessive and withholding of them simply because it was he that had given birth to them. Probably the same with all his works.

And perhaps, in the same spirit, he considered the Noldor his own, of whom he was (after his father's death) the king, and who he had persuaded to rebel. They were his work, and not the Valar's.

It was, of course, this very mindset that caused him to disregard entirely the importance of the works of others, chiefly the Valar. What he could see was his work, and he judged that to be enough to make it all his.

[Aragost]

I do not think that Feanor was overrated. He created the silmirills, perhaps the Palantiri, possibly invented those lamps that the Noldor that Tuor met in the Rainbow cleft had(In the Unfinished Tales)and the Tengwar, one of the most used writing systems in Arda. Not to mention that he was the greatest craftsman in middle earth besides Aule.

I argree that he was an @$$ because he was always threatening his half-brothers and he caused the kinslaying at Aqualonde,

[Osse]

Perhaps Feanor is another Boromir-type character; through no fualt of his own he and his actions were twisted against him and the world in general. He had potential to be a great guy, but it demonstrates what can happen if your temperament does not counter or match your abilities.

[Finwe]

The whole half-brother conflict is understandable. Most half-brothers or step-brothers have that problem, vying for their father's (or mother's) attention. With Fëanor, it was even worse, because he didn't have another parent to fall back upon. All he had was his father, and now that was being taken from him by these little usurpers. His anger and resentment is completely understandable.

[Lyta_Underhill]

The feeling you get is not so much that he was proud of their making, but possessive and withholding of them simply because it was he that had given birth to them. Probably the same with all his works.
An apt observation, Gwaihir! Probably why ALL his sons had to take the Oath; after all, they were his, and he would suffer them to have no other master but him. Makes me feel even sorrier for Maedhros and Maglor...but I know the syndrome quite well! The son reflects on the father->the son belongs to the father->the son is part of the father. Maybe Fëanor really DID put himself into his creations, in this manner of thinking!

Cheers!
Lyta

[purplefluffychainsaw]

I think my oppinion may be kinda biased becuase I *like* Feanor. But I think that he is such a good character becuase he has all the flawes and stuff that everyone has. It's just unusual to see that in an elf, but I think what Tolkien acheived was to show that not all elves are perfect! This makes us like elves more because we can relate to them better and it doesn't make us think they are mary sues.

[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: purplefluffychainsaw ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think my oppinion may be kinda biased becuase I *like* Feanor.
Don't worry about it, purplefluffychainsaw! (Great name, by the way!) I wouldn't talk about Fëanor so much if I didn't like him! smilies/wink.gif The ironic thing about Fëanor is that the same character traits that make him great and spur him to create great works also give rise to this inherent instability and his "flaws." I suppose if one is to create the ultimate in Elves, one must be ready to pay the price for it! I'm sure Fëanor took over once Tolkien allowed him to develop in his thoughts. A Mary Sue from Hell, perhaps! smilies/wink.gif Perhaps it was (I haven't checked this, just an odd thought) a study, much as it was his study of a hobbit broken down completely that gave rise to Frodo. Perhaps he created Fëanor as a study of the perfect elf with respect to external works, a sort of prototype of pure Noldorin type, if you get my meaning.

Cheers,
Lyta

[Legolas Greenleaf]

New to the board. This is a great discussion! I consider the fire of Feanor to be a virtue only because of what the Silmarils represented. If it was a beautifully wrought sword that caused this vow and arrogance I would think otherwise. However, this was the light of Valar that could never, we presume, be reproduced. In this way, I believe, Tolkien partially justifies Feanor's misdeeds. Yes there was arrogance and pride etc., but it was the pursuit of something of his that brought his people closer to God or whatever description you give to the Theology of middle earth. I almost thought of Feanor's quest as a crusade and not just a misguided obsession with his own art.

Now obviously there were transgressions, i.e. the ships at Losgar but maybe there is some applicability in that as well with regard to fanatical behavior in the name of God. Thoughts?

[Morgoth the Great]

put bluntly, id have to say i disagree completely. he was an elf worthy of the highest recognition

[Lyta_Underhill]

Welcome to the Downs, Legolas Greenleaf and Morgoth the Great! I must say I'm more on Morgoth's side here! (How did THAT sound? smilies/eek.gif )

Anyway, to your argument, Legolas:
I consider the fire of Feanor to be a virtue only because of what the Silmarils represented. If it was a beautifully wrought sword that caused this vow and arrogance I would think otherwise.

I believe you are narrowing the focus on the evil that came of Fëanor's actions, rather than on the fire within his soul which produced not only the Silmarils, but the Palantiri, the Fëanorian system of writing, and much more! He was, in a word, unequalled, in every way. The Silmarils were not only significant for their being the last of the Light of the Two Trees, but also they were part of Fëanor himself, as were all his creations. He erred in being possessive of them, but his creative fire is admirable in every way, and is in no way equal to the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Everything he did was born of fire, but this later misdeed was the fire twisted by Morgoth, not the true spirit and fire of Fëanor. He was marred; the Kinslaying was a rash and firy misdeed, but not what I would remember Fëanor for, for he was no longer himself, although true to his firy nature, if that makes sense.

He was the greatest of the Noldor, and to be the greatest, there must be an encompassing fire, not just a drive for a thing. The drive to regain the Silmarils consumed the rest of Fëanor's life, but it is folly to limit the view of his life to that unhappy occurence to the exclusion of his other great works. There is not an Age of the World til the end of the War of the Ring (that we know of...) that does not feel the touch of Fëanor and his works. That is the mark of a great elf! OK, rant over! Now back to your regularly scheduled madness! smilies/wink.gif

Cheers,
Lyta (teller of the alternate tale of Fëanor, the Exploding Elf, the unauthorized Quenta Silmarillion, unexpurgated and unbearable...)

[Morgoth the Great]

thats it, come to me, little followers. lol. i think that Feanor is a very powerfull elf though, and worthy of all the recognition he gets

[Legolas Greenleaf]

Woops. I believe I was misunderstood. I didn't mean to limit Feanor's greatness. I was writing in defense of Feanor, offering an explanation of why he did what he did. Surely there needs to be a rationalization for some of the pain and suffering he brought to his people. I thought one of those rationales could be that of a religious nature. As far as his art and craft and skill, I completely agree.

Gee whiz. I'm on the board two days and I'm already causing trouble! And it wasn't even intentional!

p.s. I've seen a couple of posters say that they hadn't read Tokien's letters. That is an absolute must read. Funny and informative. Makes you think about the lost art of writing. His letters to his fans and to his publisher are more well writen than most of today's fiction.

[Legolas Greenleaf]

And Lyta, nice post. But in refernce to my quote, when I wrote "only because of. . ." I meant that even if this were his only deed, he would be virtuous. I didn't mean to say that it was his only accomplishment.

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas Greenleaf ]

[Finwe]

I agree wholeheartedly with Lyta.

Some people may call it denying the truth, but I would like to remember Fëanor as the greatest Elf of all time, not as the misguided mass murderer of poor Teleri. He wasn't the instigator, Morgoth was. All that Fëanor did was actually let some of his lies sink in, without realizing it. I think that Morgoth played his cards well, knowing all of Fëanor's weaknesses. I don't blame Fëanor for some of his actions, because being an eldest child myself, with a lot of pressure to be perfect, I understand how he felt about his younger brothers. True, some of his actions were uncalled-for, but do the good deeds make the man or to the bad deeds make the man? In our culture, you are more remembered if you were notorious (people are definitely going to remember Hitler longer than Mother Teresa), but we have to remember those people who did do some good in their lives, and Fëanor was one of them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Some people may call it denying the truth, but I would like to remember Fëanor as the greatest Elf of all time, not as the misguided mass murderer of poor Teleri. He wasn't the instigator, Morgoth was. All that Fëanor did was actually let some of his lies sink in, without realizing it.

I am more than willing to give Feanor full credit for his many great (and in the case of the Silmarils, unsurpassed) accompishments, but he must also take the lion's share of the responsibility for the terrible deeds which he also committed. He cannot be absolved of blame simply by reference to the influence of Morgoth. Those who, whether by fear or through lies and deceit, are influenced by another to commit attrocities must nevertheless accept responsibility for their own actions.

Greatest of the Noldor he may have been, but he was also deeply flawed.

[Lyta_Underhill]

He cannot be absolved of blame simply by reference to the influence of Morgoth. Those who, whether by fear or through lies and deceit, are influenced by another to commit attrocities must nevertheless accept responsibility for their own actions.
And pay he would...I would never seek to absolve Fëanor for his misdeeds for which he was unrepentant. I simply choose to remember the bright, shining Fëanor, before his marring by Morgoth, before his terrible deeds. He is the burning lamp that one should not delve too deeply into, lest one is burned oneself. I would not seek to take Fëanor's later deeds as an example or lesson in greatness, but his former ones, his great artistic achievements.

The arguments for and against the advisability of the return on the part of the Elves to Middle Earth notwithstanding, the final decision should never have been forced to its terrible conclusion at Alqualondë. I still say Fëanor was a powerful force for the fulfillment of the Will of Eru in Arda, but, then again, so was Morgoth. There is nothing you can create, work or destroy that does not have its uttermost source in Eru and his design; and I hold to my belief that a great deal of that energy was focused in Fëanor, for good AND ill. But yes, Saucepan Man, I agree that he must be held responsible for all his deeds, great and terrible.

The ones I feel for most in this matter are Fëanor's sons, mainly Maedhros and Maglor, for they perceived the futility of the Oath they had taken, and yet they were constrained to fulfill it to their own ruin. Makes me sad... smilies/frown.gif

Cheers,
Lyta

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Legolas Greenleaf]

Lyta. That is great and I loved reading it. If you agree Feanor's art was inspired by Iluvatar then do you also agree that his pursuit of the Silamrils, however misguided, was also inspired by Eru.

Also, you have a good point in that Feanor's subsequent deeds do not lessen his craft. Similar to the works of Wagner. He was an anti-semite but the beauty of his music was clear perhaps even inspired by God. But I would say that his character was lacking.

Would you say that for all the gifts that Feanor possessed, he was flawed ethically?

[Finwe]

I agree that Fëanor has to take the blame for his misdeeds, but I still believe that instead of deserving our hatred, he rather deserves our pity.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Thanks for the great points, Legolas Greenleaf, Saucepan Man, Finwë and all who wander in here with opinions of Fëanor! I am enjoying it quite a lot!

Would you say that for all the gifts that Feanor possessed, he was flawed ethically?

Fëanor is flawed, that much is certain, and his code of ethics is marred by Morgoth's playing on his weaknesses, causing him to act on many things he only held as vague fears, shadows or inklings before: a nascent greed and fear of being overshadowed, a gigantic ego. These traits were present already in Fëanor, but after Morgoth singled him out for special treatment, they were greatly exaggerated. I wonder at what part Morgoth had in the possessiveness he showed for the Silmarils, and whether his enmity for his half brothers would have been so great as to cause him to draw sword on Fingolfin as he did...it is clear that Fëanor was unstable and needed only a slight push to create havoc. But such is the fate of one with a fire in his soul, alas! Perhaps it is like handling plutonium, very unstable, very likely to result, yet again, in the Exploding Elf! smilies/biggrin.gif

Another little point: Morgoth had been at work on the whole of the Noldor against the Valar for a long time. I wonder, if Finwë's murder and the theft of the Silmarils had not been the touchstone, what indeed would have been, for there would have been something eventually. The seed was well sown there! (Sorry, I know that is not directly related to whether or not Fëanor is overrated; on that particular question, the easy answer for me is NO!) smilies/smile.gif

Cheers,
Lyta

P.S. And Legolas, that parallel to Wagner was quite apt! Beautiful works, and a really messed up code of ethics, worldview, etc (and the greater misfortune to have those views latched onto by a psychopath in a position of power)! Great and terrible...but never boring!

[jedi]

You know whats so funny.... I had a discussion with a friend of mine that told me straight up that Feanor was not a legend ( as I so faithfully called him ) but infamous...and the main reason being was the kinslaying. My response to him was that no matter how you put it, the kinslaying was wrong and yes it was also a selfish act of evil on Feanor's part. he didnt have to kill the Teleri. but he did it in his mad desperation to follow Morgoth to middle earth. In the history of the United States especially in the west during the period of the 18th century. most of the gunfighters of that era ( billy the kid, jesse james etc ) were notorious and Infamous but still legends in the making of that part of history with deeds that some have equally loved and hated.

My point is ( in terms of whatever it is you want to classify Feanor as )what he became will not take away from the fact of Tokien written about him throughout the Silmarillion. The Mightiest of the Noldor and the perfect of the Elvin Race in all parts of body, mind, valour, skill, wisdom etc, etc.

The cruel irony to all of it was that he didnt show all of the qualities that Illuvatar had blessed him with and could the possiblity of all the Feanor was be that this was also a part of the overall plan of Illuvatar's doing? what I mean by that was that Illuvatar himself have stated to the Valar that no matter what evil deeds Melkor does, even his acts will only serve to the eventual glorification of Illuvatar power and dominion in Arda. the same could be said for all of Illuvatar's children and that includes Feanor.

I did agree with my friend though in saying that Feanor was Infamous....he only became Infamous when he started to speak openly against the Valar. he didnt speak in terms of taking over the Undying lands for himself or even destroying the two trees for that matter, he only spoke on not being confined to the Undying lands like a bird caught in a cage. and remember. throughout the Silmarillion, Feanor was adventuroues and loved to roam the wide plans of Eldarmar all the way to the open seas of the void. he was never one to stay in one place anyway.
regardless of the fact that Morgoth poisoned his mind with lies about his brothers and the Valar. in fact, all of the Noldor became proud and willful due to the words of Morgoth, so if Feanor was infamous on those ground, then the entire Noldor race was infamous. including those elves within the house of Finarfin and Fingolfin.

what the hell ?..... Fingon and Turgon was said to be bold and fiery at heart. and they both was eager to be gone from Valinor. Feanor never planted the idea of wantitng to leave in their head. they already had the desire in their heart. It too the greatest of the Noldor to say the things that most of the Noldor was too afraid to say. What makes Feanor legendary in my eyes was the fact that despite the Valar wanting the elves to dwell with them in Valinor to "protect" them from the wiles of Morgoth, Feanor probably knew that (even though he too was duty bound to obey the powers in their own land ) the Valar didnt create him or his race and therefore are not objects to be worshiped as maybe some of the elves did without even realizing that they are the first children of Illuvatar....

and none BUT the creator ( Eru/ Illuvatar ) should have the right to command them so in where they should go and where should they live. Illuvatar instructed the Valar that Elves and Men is to inhabit Middle earth and dwell therin. if you bring a race (Noldor ) from the place where they was created to dwell by their creator (Middle-Earth). and the reason you give was to protect them from the evil of their kindred ( Melkor ). then you dont secure them when one of them (Finwe) was brutally killed nor capture the one who cause it. You basically negated the reason for them even being in Valinor in the first place.

Feanor knew that the moment he found out that Morgoth killed his father and the days afterwards, realized that the Valar have done nothing to even ENSURE the Noldor that Justice will be done by their hands.

Feanor probably thought "sh** ! you ve done it before when you went to war with Melkor over us cause he was taking those of our race and turning them into Orks. whats the difference now ? you should have an even bigger reason because that wasnt even like probably a month after Him and Ungoliant destroyed the two trees."

Feanor was fearless in his thinking and his actions to want to destroy that which took away his greatest love, his father In my humble opinion, he simply snapped. and his deeds to the Teleri has tarnished his Legend and made him as my friend said...infamous...but the fact remain that it was due to his bold stance as a Elf who dared to challege the might of the Valar (who is the most evil and despised even in the eyesight of Illuvatar ) in a war he could not truly win but to show to all including that of the Valar, that Illuvatar has made his greatest creation when he created the Elves and the race of the Noldor in particular. thats what makes him Legendary in my eyes. and I will always think of him like that.

we as humans do works of good as well as works to harm our very soul at times. but our overall character and whats in our souls is what makes us the good and god fearing beings that we are. Feanor's life was basically set up to work wonders of the glorification and beauty of Arda. he was as Illuvatar created him to be. It was unfortunate that the deeds he did towards the end created the type of imagine will tarnish and shame his memory all the days of the world....but his words to the Valar and the Noldor came to pass...that they will be the most dominant race on Middle Earth. and to prove my point in conclusion, was the fact that during the big feast that Fingolfin prepare to bring together all the elves. and it was a glorious gather where good councils were held as well as forming strong alliances. the vibe and the feelings of togetherness were so high and amongs themselves during the feast....

They said that the words of Mighty and fell Feanor on leaving Valinor to created and build new kingdoms in middle earth in which the Noldor will thrive and prosper was correct and the hardships they've endure ( which includes the kinslaying and the journey through the grinding ice ) was beinning to be WORTH it. Now this was said way after the demise of the Mightiest and greatest of all the Noldor...you tell me...who should be called infamous and selfish now. and most of us who read the Silmarillon loves the characters of Turgon, Fingon, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Finrod and others. they was all at this feast which makes me realize that the best our intentions to do good can go horribly wrong at a moments notice causing us to do evil in the sight of Illuvatar. Feanor was no different and him and his house suffered the most for it, but Feanor himself ( without even realizing it ) have set in motion the eventual and heroic deeds that made most of his family within the house Finwe great in Illuvatar eyes. that is exactly why the Spirit of Fire will always be a legend to me....

no matter how "Infamous" he was.... smilies/smile.gif

so in answer to question was Feanor..overratted....absolutely not..in alllll areas of the spectrum
smilies/smile.gif

[ August 29, 2003: Message edited by: jedi ]

[the phantom]

and none BUT the creator ( Eru/ Illuvatar ) should have the right to command them so in where they should go and where should they live. Illuvatar instructed the Valar that Elves and Men is to inhabit Middle earth and dwell therin. if you bring a race (Noldor ) from the place where they was created to dwell by their creator (Middle-Earth). and the reason you give was to protect them from the evil of their kindred ( Melkor ). then you dont secure them when one of them (Finwe) was brutally killed nor capture the one who cause it. You basically negated the reason for them even being in Valinor in the first place.
Jedi shoots... he scores!! smilies/biggrin.gif
he didnt have to kill the Teleri. but he did it in his mad desperation to follow Morgoth to middle earth
Actually, I think he might've had to. Read the thread below to find out why I have this radical belief. Even if you don't agree, it's a great thread from beginning to end. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003412&p=

(and welcome to the Downs, Jedi, you'll fit in fine)

[jedi]

thanks Phantom....

being in a place like this..feels like I've finally came home smilies/smile.gif

[Finwe]

Blessed Valar, Jedi! That's all I can say to that magnificent post!

I think what people don't realize is that with great power also comes a great capability to "fall." When you get someone so extraordinarily gifted as Fëanor, it is doubly grievous when they fall. I'm sure that Fingon instigating the Kinslaying or Finrod instigating the Kinslaying wouldn't have garnered that much of a reaction. The reason that the reaction was that big was that it was Fëanor who did it, the seemingly epitome of perfection among the Elves. It can be compared to the stereotypical brilliant student at all of our schools, the perfectionist who always gets A's, suddenly failing a final exam, or something like that. It is even more shocking because such a "perfect" person fell. The same thing can apply with Fëanor.