A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish

[gondowe]

Hello everybody; first of all, sorry for my english.
I'm a 36 years old Spanish Tolkien reader and fan from 1985, and when I read for the first time "The Silmarillion" in 1987, it was a shock. Then they come the "Unfinished Tales" here in Spain and in 1990 it was published here "Lost Tales I". The next book I acquired was in English the next year, because it was an stop in translations to Spanish. Since I read the complete original "Fall of Gondolin" I wanted to complete a final "Fall", and I started to do it as handwork. When "Morgoth's Ring" and "War of the Jewels" comes at last, the project was enlarged to the whole Silmarillion.
I only write to say that from many years ago, I have my personal vision of a dreamed "Fall of Gondolin" and "Silmarillion".... but in Spanish, called "Traducciones del elfico" ---> "Translations from the Elvish", but in Spanish, its a coincidence. It' similar to the project of this website, but have some differences of my own opinion.
I Know that is not the language of Tolkien and is a sacrilege, but is a work of a life easy to read for me and my people, and is worked from the official Spanish translation of "The Silmarillion" and the other books, most of all translated by me. It is updated when a new book comes, with new information, the last whit "The Children of Hurin". I'm expecting the publication of Arda Reconstructed, if it gives me more information to complete my vision.
I found this website a year ago, ( I'm new in the web), and I saw the project, and I did take a few ideas to make better "The Fall of Gondolin".
I believe in Tolkien and I believe in the work of his son, but I think we need a Silmarillion not better but complete, revised.
I think was the purpose of Christopher.
Of course I don't want to publish it. It's for my personal tasting. I'm proud of it.

Thank you for this website, and go on with the project

[Maédhros]

Do you plan on sharing it?

I'm fluent in spanish and i would be interested in seeing it too, if it were possible?

[Findegil]

Hello Gondowe,

Even so I can not read Spanish at all, I would very much appreciate if you would share your Ideas about the work undertaken. I know that a complete comparison is out of question, but probably you can highlight some point of divergence between our work and yours?

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: Even so my time is very limited in the moment, I would very much like to go on with this project. What is about my long term colleges Meadhros and Aiwendil, are we able to go on?

[Maédhros]

P.S.: Even so my time is very limited in the moment, I would very much like to go on with this project. What is about my long term colleges Meadhros and Aiwendil, are we able to go on?
Yes, I'm able to go on, but like yourself, my time is limited. Let me pm you as to what it is we should be discussing in the proyect.

[gondowe]

I'm pleased to know that you're interested in my ideas and if I can contribute with my opinion I'll be double pleased.

First of all I have to say my ideas about the canonical works and its interpretation.
I think basically that as an exemplary mythology, this one of Middle-Earth is unfinished and formed by multiple texts, some of them merely rough copies or first drafts.
With this in mind I think we can not invent nothing apart for editorial sentences to join the established ideas of Tolkien (as did Christopher), even names (except some few in “Fall of Gondolin” about I’ll say later).

The basis for the complete text must be the material from the end of the writing of The Lord of the Rings to the early 60’s, Then complete with old texts as next to the 50’s as we can. From the texts of later 60’s we can only take some few ideas, for the most are essays and rough notes about a later development than never came, (such as the number of Balrogs, the origin of orcs, etc, even the post- Lord of the Rings Round version of Arda due to the need of a complete restructuration of the corpus impossible to Tolkien because his age, and to us for the need of invent.)

To sum up, we can not complicate us and limit to the above.

I assume The Children of Húrin as canonical and I left aside the work on the Narn I hin Hurin. And adding some material (Dragon helm and Saeros) to the chapter in Translations.

I have both books printed with a single “binding” with plastic and rings. The front page with the title reads

Traducciones del élfico J.R.R: Tolkien one

La caída de Gondolin J.R.R. Tolkien the other


The next page contains a note of the origins of this material. It reads translated.

These texts were constructed from myths of Eressëa and Númenor preserved in several sources and translated to modern language by JRRT.
Were compiled, edited and published firsr by his son CRT.
Reconstructed and edited second from the published texts by Gondowë.

I think that the history of Eriol/Aelfwine can be still possible (although I omit it) and can be compatible with "The Red book" of the hobbits

The next are the titles of the “real tales” in fëanorian characters first and then:

1 A Ainulindale, etc
B Valaquenta, etc
C Eldanyare Quenta Silmarillion o Histora de los Eldar o Historia de los Silmarils
D Atalante o Akallabeth, etc
E De los Anillos de Poder (Of the rings of Power)
F De la Tercera Edad (Of the Third Age)

2 Narn e- Dant Gondolin o Historia de la Caida de Gondolin (HIstory of the Fall of Gondolin)

On the development of the texts I’ll write other day, I must go working, I'm too very busy.

Greetings.

[gondowe]

In the matter of the Narn e-Dant Gondolin I made a division in chapters after the publication of The Children of Húrin, translated more or less:

The birth of Tuor
Tuor slave and outlaw
The call of Ulmo
The arriving at Vinyamar
The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
Voronwë
The quest of Gondolin
The hidden pass
The arriving at Gondolin
Of Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
The Treason of Maeglin
The Battle of Gondolin
The Flight of the exiles

In the first part, the “later Tuor”, I don’t remember to have made any change, apart for the chapters.

In the second part, that I remember have made are:

In the matter of the names, I considered the names on this web of the city The seven names Ondolindë, Gondobar, Gondolindrinbar, Gwarestrin, Garthoren, Loth, Gondolin.
The names of the Chieftains of the houses remains the same except Talagand (again I accepted from this web), I think is the only ones we have and can not invent others.
In the polemic mention of Legolas, I changed this one for Galdor that was among the exiles too. I assume this one and Glorfindel are the same as in TLOTR
I changed the word Balrogs for Balrog, omitted the metal in the serpents, goblins for orcs, etc, updating the rest to the well known.

I introduced many sentences and matters from other sources, like mention to Argon Elenwë and Idril in the ice, Gond dolen, the speech of Thorondor and Turgon from TWOH, (speech I resumed in the chapter of “Translations), the history of Enherdil and the Elessar, Anguirel as the sword of Maeglin, Glamdring as the sword of Turgon, the same fate of Maeglin and his father...

Of course there were the changes in geography as the house of Tuor in the north, Cirith Thoronath also in the north, Orfalch Echor, etc.

For the construction of the text, I think I made a good work, but it’s my proud opinion. It can be made in many different forms. But the few texts I’ve read from this web are very similar, not the same, but very similar.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

As might be suspected, I have a view questions:
- Since I never saw any sign of your chapterheadings, I assume you invented them. For what reason did you do that?

- Legolas: Did I understand you right, that you removed Legolas as the guid during the night by Galdor the Lord of the people of the Tree?

- Balrogs: Did you realy change every meention of Balrogs to a singular Balrog? Would that mean that Tuor, Ecthelion, and Rog each killed a Balrog? Even so before hand you did not mention more than one Balrog?

- May be I am just a bit slow this morning but Gond dolen did not ring any bell with me. Could you give a bit more information.

- The same is true for the speech of Thorondor and Turgon from WH. Can you give a more specific source information.

- How did you handel the escape from the battle, when you placed Tuor's house in the north of the city? Or did you change the direction of the attack to come from the south?

- How did you handel the fugetives that seperated from Tuor to take the old way of escape?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

As might be suspected, I have a view questions:
- Since I never saw any sign of your chapterheadings, I assume you invented them. For what reason did you do that?


Yes I invented them. After the publication of The Children of Hurin I wanted that his cousin had a similar story, and that invention (I think) is not against the story and don’t changes anything wrote by Tolkien. It’s only a heading.


- Legolas: Did I understand you right, that you removed Legolas as the guid during the night by Galdor the Lord of the people of the Tree?


Yes, if we assume as truth (in this case I think it can be possible) the matter of names and elves, there can not be there anyone called Legolas here unless he was the same as in the LOTR, and we know is not the case. I think Galdor is a good solution, he also was there (and of the same house), and is not told to have died anywhere.
And


- How did you handel the fugetives that seperated from Tuor to take the old way of escape?


To omit is not to lie, simply there were no separation because they knew that the Orfalch Echor (The way of escape) had been closed many years ago. (And it’s told in my version).



- Balrogs: Did you realy change every meention of Balrogs to a singular Balrog? Would that mean that Tuor, Ecthelion, and Rog each killed a Balrog? Even so before hand you did not mention more than one Balrog?



All we know that in later mythology there can not be hundreds of Balrogs, but I don’t think really that Tolkien considered in an hypothetically revision to exit from the beginning only seven Balrogs, (Balrogs dead when the other battles, the battle of Gondolin, and the last battle, apart for that one of Moria).
With this, yes, each one killed a balrog, (we are in the First age, everyone are more powerful, elves and Tuor!!!). I don’t remember how many balrogs are mentioned in my version but I think don’t matters, for they are few, and coherent and I think credible.



- May be I am just a bit slow this morning but Gond dolen did not ring any bell with me. Could you give a bit more information.


As for Gond Dolen“Hidden Rock” for the origin of the word Gondolin ( I introduced when they are telling Tuor things about the city and its history, as the history of the Ice), I remember is mentioned in the Appendix of elements of Quenya and sindarin at the end of The Silmarillion published. As the most part of the text was made many years ago I don’t remember if it’s mentioned in other book.



- The same is true for the speech of Thorondor and Turgon from WH. Can you give a more specific source information.


In WH when Húrin is searching the way to Gondolin, the eagles watched him, and Thorondor went to Turgon, these words I introduced in FoG, and in the chapter “Of the wanderings of Húrin”, I introduced in the other book, (as I will tell later), I resumed the speech for no repetition.



- How did you handel the escape from the battle, when you placed Tuor's house in the north of the city? Or did you change the direction of the attack to come from the south?



Since the Cirith Thoronath is now in the North, I think the house of Tuor there must be in the north. I think we can put it wherever we want, because there’s no more information about it. The characteristics of the stone of Amon Gwared, as it’s said by Tuor, makes very difficult the excavation, (even for the Noldor) and I think that as Tolkien put house south/Cristhorn south in the old version, we can put the other now, making the tunnel as short as we can.
The attack of course is from the north, but in the time of the flight (as I think is said) there were enemies around all Amon Gwared, North, West, South and East, and the escape from the north could have been the less expected by Morgoth.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Thanks for the farther explaination, I got a better picture now in most cases. But a few questions remian:

- The speech of Thorondor: Where did you include what? The report of Húrin searching entrance into the city does of course fall into Tuors time there. But did you actually insert the report of Thorondor in direct spech?

- Again the battel: When Tuor withdraws to the King's Square the place is already beset with foes from North West and East. Fittingly Tuor withdraws to the south. In the original version his house and the entrace of the secret tunnel was in that direction. Does that mean in your version Tuor made an implicit turn and to the north?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

- The speech of Thorondor: Where did you include what? The report of Húrin searching entrance into the city does of course fall into Tuors time there. But did you actually insert the report of Thorondor in direct spech?


According with the annals and Tale of years, I think the best or one of the best places is just before the paragraph that starts:
“Now came days when Tuor had dwelt among the Gondolindrim many years. ….” .



- Again the battel: When Tuor withdraws to the King's Square the place is already beset with foes from North West and East. Fittingly Tuor withdraws to the south. In the original version his house and the entrace of the secret tunnel was in that direction. Does that mean in your version Tuor made an implicit turn and to the north?



As for the question of the battle I was revising the section you say and I can be in a mistake but I think it can be changed simply south for north without lose sense. For example, there’s a passage telling that the enemy attacked from left and rear, -east and north- , and I changed that it was from west and south. And things like these. I was reading it and it seems me coherent.
The names of the streets can be the same because there’s no description previously.
By the way, I omitted Gar Ainion, simply Place of the Ainur, Fountains of South there are Fountains of North, etc.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Ah, that means Morgoth army comes over the hills in the north, but the first gate to fall is the south gate of the city? Yes, that is a reasonable possibility to change thinks.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes it can be possible, but not necessarily. At the time of Tuor withdraws to King's place and subsequently to the tunnel, Morgoth armies had razed Gondolin (even from the north that means the north had few enemies), and could come from wherever you want.
But the development of the battle (although very brilliant) is not so deep told, and I think we must not complicate more about this question.

Greetings

[beforetime]

I want to see the "Complete Silmarillion" . Can you tell me where is it? spanish translation (http://www.24hourspanishtranslation.com/)

[gondowe]

On the book “Traducciones del élfico”, (“Translations from the elvish”), the basis text I decided to use, was that of The Silmarillion published. I had and I have the original edition, there’s no translation into Spanish of the last edition revised (I think from 2001).

I used this basis because I think we must have respect with the work made by CT, a work of cohesion and connection between the whole mythology. I only change the story in the matter of the Ruin of Doriath. The part he invented and perhaps (as we can read in “The War of the Jewels”) he was not proud of it.

But this basis, first, I compared with the texts in MR and TWotJ, the annals and the Quenta Silmarillion proper, adding material discarded ( if was not discarded from JRR or contradicts other thing), and overall, the dialogues that CT omitted.

I left aside material like “Athrabeth”, “Quendi and Eldar” “The statute of Finwe and Miriel”(the discussion of the Valar), etc, because, or there are incomplete or ,like the Athrabeth, there are not (I think) “Quenta Silmarillion” texts. But I mention these works with an editorial sentence in the corpus of the text when proceed, and so we can read it, if we want.

Then, I was introducing material (paragraphs, sentences, etc) from the other texts before the 50’s or after the 60’s, when it was convenient and didn’t confront with the story.

I don't remember how many (for there were many) sentences, paragraphs,etc and where I introduced them, but in other posts I will explain these I'm going remembering, and if you answer things like with the FoG, it will be easier.

In a post above I wrote the general title.
The structure of Eldanyarë or Quenta Silmarillion proper is:

The same titles as in the published work except:

Ch24 Of the Wanderings of Húrin
Ch25 Of the Nauglamir and the Ruin of Doriath
Ch27 Of the Voyage of Earendil and the rising of the New Star
Ch28 Of the Great battle and the War of Wrath
Ending with The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

(Edit)
I had forgotten
Ch6 Of Finwe and Miriel
ch11 Of the Rape of the Silmarils and the Thieve's Quarrel

I am waiting to buy the new edition of The Silmarillion in Amazon, when “Arda Reconstructed” will be released.
But for the moment, can anybody tell me differences between the 77 edition and this one?, what changes or additions had made CT?


Thanks and greetings.

[Findegil]

Gondowe, in my view you shouldn't with waht ever you plan with your work for the Sil2001. The changes introduced in the text are very minor. I remember only some thing about the numbering of the rulers of Numenor that had any bearing to the content of the story. From my point of view a normal read will hardly mark any differenc.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

I’ve been ( and I am) very busy these days, so sorry.

Ok Findegil, I understand that you said to me that it isn’t worthwhile to buy or read it (Sil2001 I mean), isn’t it?

It was very difficult to join the texts of AAm and Quenta proper with the text of Sil77 and I made it alone, so it’s possible (I suppose) that I left something away. But it was enlarged considerabily.

In the Valaquenta I inserted the descriptions of the houses of the Valar from the Lost Tales, that I had in mind from many years ago.

Here and there I introduced sentences from other sources like mention to the First, Second, Third elves to awake and their people and I’d take the decision (I don’t know what do you think in the forum about it) of relating these elves with Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe because of other sentence I introduced ( I think, but not secure) from the Lammas that “Ingwe was the eldest for he was the first to awake”. Perhaps it’ll be polemic but I feel it’s right.

I had pity for not know where could I insert the passage from the history of Finwe and Miriel ( at the end of The statute) when he dies, but I didn’t find a coherent place for it.
What do you think about?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Ok Findegil, I understand that you said to me that it isn’t worthwhile to buy or read it (Sil2001 I mean), isn’t it?Yes, that it what I mean.

The 'relation' between Ingwe and Imin, you took is identity? Possible in that special case. But between Tata and Finwe is doubtful and Enel equvial to Elwe seems impossible since he had two brothers.

About Finwe and Miriel I have to look that up in our version, before commenting.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

The 'relation' between Ingwe and Imin, you took is identity? Possible in that special case. But between Tata and Finwe is doubtful and Enel equvial to Elwe seems impossible since he had two brothers.



As a legend not only as written by Tolkien but even among the Elves, the Cuivienyarna can be interpreted in several ways.

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten".

If we can take as truth the sentence about Ingwe above, we can think the same about Finwe, and so I explain what I made (translated more of less):

I mentioned the name of the legend then naming that three elves awoke first and the Three Houses were derived from these elves, so they were named simply MInyar, Tatyar and Nelyar. Later when the division of the elves I relation Ingwe with the Minyar Finwe with the Tatyar, etc, with the new names deriving from this firrst division (I mean Vanyar, etc) and in the next paragraph comes the sentence above about Ingwe.
Of course it's no mention of the wives for the matter of Miriel.

And as Eru- begotten people and as the Fëanturi and Nienna for example, Elwe and Olwe (and Elmo) can be brothers in the mind of Iluvatar.

So it stays only as an interpretation of the reader.

Only in the revised and enlarged index I established identity between the characters.

I hope had explained correctly.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Gondonwe wrote:
As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen.

Unless I'm mistaken, this statement was written by Christopher Tolkien.

Findegil wrote:
The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse?

Indeed, and pretty much any speculative solution involving the death of Enelye or anything along those lines is precluded by 'Finwe and Miriel'.

[gondowe]

I insist that it's a legend even for the elves themselves ( of Aman and Sindar) not a kwoledge as "the wise men say".
I only take the characters, and didn't mention the spouses for Miriel and of course (I had forgotten) for Melian.
I feel that if Ingwe was "the eldest for he awoke first" then Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third, and Unbegotten.
And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter.

Greetings

[gondowe]

Continuing on with my text. For example I decided to keep the picture of Melkor hurting the Trees instead of only Ungoliant. The image of the coming of the two, is glorious for me.

The rest was principally add text from AAm AG and QP here and there with some alussions, like in the chapter Of the coming of men in west, introducing Andreth and mentioning the speech conserved in the Athrabeth. And in the index telling the relation between Andreth and Aegnor.

From the Lay of the CoH I took aspect of the description of Nargothrond.

Of course in the chapter Of Beren and Luthien introduced material, principally dialogues and things like Dagmor his sword, etc from the lays.

The title Narn Beren ion-Barahir would be desirable if we had a more extensive source but comparing the other Narns in too short lamentably. So I decided to keep the title as “Silmarillion Tradition”. The same thing I did with the chapters Of Turin Turambar and Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, for the two independent “books” TCoH and TFoG.

Only in Of Turin, there was a restructuration of the text according with TCoH, adding the matter of Saeros and Dragon helm, discarded by CT in the new book.
As I said above, I consider TCoH as the definitive Narn for it was made by CT after publication of HoME, and “purgued”. And names as Saeros, Teiglin, Dorlas. etc were maintained for this reason.

In the Chapter Of Tuor only changed where is said “much of it was told in TFoG” to “much is said in the Narn e-dant Gondolin”

The rest of the final chapters were more difficult, and I’ll try to explain later.

Greetings

[gondowe]

By the way, a question. How exactly is going to be your project? will it be only a book? Two?
The structure?
What are you going to do with texts like Laws and Customs, Atrabeth, Quendi and Eldar, and the other texts from Unfinished Tales?

As I am going to re-structured now the order of my texts and revise the Narn Hurin, reduce WH for the QS, etc. You could give me your ideas, if I can make use of them.

Thank you and greetings

[Findegil]

Gondowe, look at this thread: * An unofficial New Silmarillion Outline * (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4453)
In its full lenght it will answere most of your questions.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok Findegil, thank you and sorry, I had read some threads a year ago, when i had discovered this web, and possibly I would had red it but I didn't remember it. Now I have little time to read every thread, and I only do that with the new.
Can you tell me if there's one where it is said what texts or chapters you have finished, apart I think for FoG, and the Ainulindale?

Thank you and greetings.

[Findegil]

Sorry Gondowe my answere was not really that specific. If you want the actual structer of TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH / volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS you will find in the thread given above in posting #80 (Page2).

The proposals for the other volumes ar not that clear. But they should sume up to 3 according losely to the 3 volumes Bilbo gave Frodo. I proposed 1 volume dealing with Númenor and Middle-Earth in the second and third Age and 1 volume with Essay.
All the Texts you mentioned would be included in one or the other.

Did I get you right that you would like to produce a Silmarillion + editions of the 'Great Tales'? That project looks even more ambious then ours since it will include much reducting from the 'Great Tales' with the additional issue to aviod to much repeating (but translation might help in this).

The reduction of Húrin in Brethil will be a hard task. The intra Brethilien politics are heavily interwoven with Húrins actions. I am not that sure that you must do that at all. Okay otherwise the tale is a bit out of balance with the rest of Húrins Wanderings. But not so much with what Tolkien might envisaged for his Silmarillion realised only for The Darkening of Valinor with all its sub-chaptern.

About your new question were we are rigth now, please look at this thread** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread ** (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=587354#post587354). In posting #100 I gave an overview that still not so much outdated. I only would add that we have settle the discussion about Andróg as a member of Húrins band and have finished the first part of the Narn concerning the changes introduce by CoH.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Did I get you right that you would like to produce a Silmarillion + editions of the 'Great Tales'? That project looks even more ambious then ours since it will include much reducting from the 'Great Tales' with the additional issue to aviod to much repeating (but translation might help in this).

The reduction of Húrin in Brethil will be a hard task. The intra Brethilien politics are heavily interwoven with Húrins actions. I am not that sure that you must do that at all. Okay otherwise the tale is a bit out of balance with the rest of Húrins Wanderings. But not so much with what Tolkien might envisaged for his Silmarillion realised only for The Darkening of Valinor with all its sub-chaptern.


Respectfully
Findegil

Well my initial idea was to retain the chapters of Túrin and Tour as it were in The Published Sil + WoH edited the end with the end of TT. And CoH in a book and FoG in other. It was so till you animate me to retake the narn Húrin so i am working in my job (when i can, of course, a Hospital) as I said above. I only take my previous WoH and past as an appendix at the end of CoH (with the central chapters enlarged with the lay).
In the chapter of "Silmarillion" i take the other title proposed by Tolkien "Of the fate of Húrin and Morwen" and as my law "not to complicate", I resume the whole passage of Hurin in Brethil with the annal 501 from WotJ little edited, and I don't "invent" nothing.

The enlarged chapter of Beren is "overenlarged", and added in the book with the other two tales, and the original chapter of Sil reenters in the Book.

I think it was the project of Tolkien to left a Silmarillion and the three (or four) tales apart.
And I know there are people that want to read the whole history, whithout Great Tales, people, of course, not like us, but for example my cousin can read the whole silmarillion and then if it likes much, could read the Tales enlarged, or vice versa. She red FoG and likes too much.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I think it was the project of Tolkien to left a Silmarillion and the three (or four) tales apart.Yes, I agree to this and I did not critisies your approach. I rather mentioned the issues that brought as to another way. Your finished results have some edvantages that our approach has lost:
- the single entitys will be better balanced.
- for the entitys a fign history of tradition is thinkable
- you follow probably Tolkiens original plan (at least much better then we do)
- the entitys are smaller (which makes publishers happy as I learned recently from Brandon Lee's Blog about the split of 'A Memory of Light'. But this last point is irrelevant since publication is prohibited by copyright anyway.)

I have to appolgies for the question anyway. Had I re-read or remembered your earlier postings, the answer was clear more or less allready.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hi Findegil, I've finished in rework the Narn Húrin, and I was trying to send you my two pdf books by the e-mail in your web but I have problems of delivering message. How can I send you them?
Meanwhile I retried.

Another question, the titles in the narn Beren from The coming to Doriath till The ques of the silmaril, are invented? I don't remember a source.

Greetings

[Findegil]

For message try ralf.volles@gmx.de. But probably it will not help me much, since I don't speak any spanish. But if you don't mind I would collcect it and give it to other members if they shoe interest.

The chapterheadings in the Lay of Leithian are all original. We did not invent any haeding in our chapterstructure beside the head line of part one of TftE 'The Elderdays' and the skipt chapter 'Of Túrin the Hapless 2'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

The chapterheadings in the Lay of Leithian are all original.



Ok, but can you tell me where they are?, because I was looking for them and I don't find anything in the texts.

Greetings

[Findegil]

We took them out of the listing in the content page of the book if they will be found nowhere else. Sorry I have the book not at hand. I will look it up at the evening. I am not quiet sure if they are in the text itself.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok I had seen them. That's the problem of not see the index of the books. For althougth I have the english version, there are many years I don't use it, and the spanish version have the index at the end of the book.

I suposse they were invention of CRT.
Thank you.

Greetings

[gondowe]

Gondonwe wrote:

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen.

Unless I'm mistaken, this statement was written by Christopher Tolkien.





And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter.



Well, I remembered ( and I verified) that in the Lost Tales in the Tale of the Nauglafring Tinwelint said Úrin that his life beginned in Palisor unnumbered years before born the first Man. So from this sentence I Think CT made his in the Sill77. So Tolkien from the beginning thought that Thingol was an Unbegotten.

Greetings

[Findegil]

It is not clear that 'a live beginning in Cuivienen' is equal to being one of the unbegotten. I would assume that at least in the later form of the mythologie at least the second generation of Elfs was born in Cuivienen. And Thingol having two brethern was surley of that second generation.

But in the earlier form of the Legend things were other wise. For a time Feanor was planed to be the first Elfenchild ever. That means that we must ask if we should take that statment of Thingol up into our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material.

Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents.

Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'.

Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.

[gondowe]

Evidently I don´t pretend to convince anybody of my opinions about this questions, but in order to resume my vision of the matter and finish for my part this discussion, I would like to enumerate the points of what I think:

As Tolkien left the mythology unfinished, we must try to investigate among the material he left to us. But of course we (I) must be erroneous.

First of all, the Cuivienyarna is stated to be a legend even among the Eldar, not a kwoledge as "the wise men say". Few or no tales are stated as legends among the Eldar. A legend is half “truth” (subcreation), half invention. So the names could be (if you can say fan-fictionally) a sort of epesse and the tale and wives a “poetic” invention.

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

The same for Elwe/Thingol as is stated in the post above and the same for his brothers.

I said before: “As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten"”.

If we can take as truth all above, we can think the same about Finwe.

In other way If Ingwe was the first and was one of the three ambassadors, so Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third.

For me the key is how to interpret the Cuivienyarna, if as “true subcreation” or mere poetic tale, “legend”.

Tolkien didn’t write nowhere if the three ambassadors were the three main chiefs of the clans (that for me means the first three ones) or not, but I think there are more data to think so than not to think it.

Greetings

[Findegil]

The problem I have with this line of thinking is the brotherhood in the mind of Iluvatar. How would these brethern know of each other? Eru might have told the Ainur about such things in there own ranks, but who could have told the Elves?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

[gondowe]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

Yes, yes, Indis is later than the Lammas, what I wanted to mean is that we have both informations.

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I think the line about Eöl is the most devastating to the theory of Thingol being one of the firstborn. I can't reconcile them at all, and thus I must say that Thingol was of the later generations.

[gondowe]

Hello everybody, what about you fellows?
Since my mother dies on 30th January (i hope she are with Morwen, she was Eledhwen too), I did not wrote here, but in February I received the last Parma Eldalamberon, and with the firs part of the Tengwesta, The Descent of Tonges, i made an Appendix new combining this with the text of the Essecenta and other language texts like the ancient Lammas and Of Dwarves and Men.

And one thing brouth me to other and I introduced a change (minor in the context, but important). For me now re-reading the comments of CT, Eöl is not of the kin of Thingol. I think (correct me please) the last annotation of the professor is that Eöl was of the Teleri of the Hithaeglir, and the alussion that the relationship to Thingol would have point, could be a mere good relashionship of live in Nan Elmoth (represented by the gift of Anglachel). of course is an interpretation but for me the internal history is more coherent.

What do you think?

Greetings

[gondowe]

Hello again, connecting with the post above, I want to show you the last structure of the texts, naturally is a traduction from my "original" in spanish.




Translations from the Elvish Vol.1

Silmarillion

Prologue (by me)

Note on pronunciation.
Note on the origins of the texts.

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur

Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Ents and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
. 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
. 19 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
. 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings of the Eldar
. 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi
B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-The Converse of Manwë and Eru
-Of the severance of marriage
-This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel"
C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-The Tale of Adanel
E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.

Genealogies

Maps



Translations from the Elvish Vol.2

Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 The arriving at Vinyamar
4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
5 Voronwë
6 The quest of Gondolin
7 The hidden pass
8 The arriving at Gondolin
9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
10 The Treason of Maeglin
11 The Fall of Gondolin
12 The Flight of the exiles
13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map


Translations from the Elvish Vol.3

The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
1 A description of the Island of Númenor
2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
3 The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
Of the return of Sauron
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion
Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of the Folk of Durin
Of the Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal men
II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
V Of Amroth and Nimrodel
VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
IX Of the origins of the Istari
X Of the Elessar
XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XII Of the Palantiri
XIII Of the Quest of Erebor
XIV Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
XV Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

Fourth Part
General guide of names

Maps


Greetings.

[Findegil]

Nice to hear you are still active, Gondowe.

Sorry that we can not say the same about our own project.

Concerning the contents of your projected books:
What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included.

Anyway, what I observed also is that you would try to bring both versions of the big tales: a short one in the body of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' and an extanded one in the collection of the 'Atanatarion'.

Do you not fear that tahs might lead to a big deal of repeatition of one and the same text in all the places were the full versions of th ebig tales break off?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Good to see both of you around! I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, Gondowe, and I wish you the best.

I'm hoping to have some time to devote to getting our project moving again in the near future (within the next month or so). If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it!

[Findegil]

If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it!I promise to do so.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Nice to read you again, we are there till the end.

Thank you for about my mother, the battle against the cancer (send by Morgoth) was very hard.

Findegil wrote.
What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included.

Its included as the last Appendix of Volume one. E Yenonotie. The Tale of Years.

About the other matter, really its a case of repeatition, but I shortened anyway lots of it, (its a real pity that you cannot read it for being in spanish, to compare).

Anyway I feel fine with it, because its the most approached to the knowed final structure projects of the professor, if Tolkien wanted to repeat the story, amen ( evidently with other words). But we only have what we have.

What do you think about the matter of Eol in the post above.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Execuse me for answering so late, Gondowe!

I had to re-read a bit to make up my mind about Eöl an your question. For me the note: 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point' is a kind of call back for the first sentence of the earlier note ('Eöl should not be ...'). It is hard to bring all different story into order in ones mind. For me stil the best solution Tolkien came up with the story of a Tatyarin Avari. Since there was intermarraging between the clans he still could be a kin fo Thingol (who by the way seems to be akin to nearly everyone). Eöl being of Tatyarin blood would also explain why the marriage between his son Maeglin and Idril was out of question, when in other places a relatiuonship between first-cousins is allowed if the unrelated parents are not akin at all.

I am sure that, if ever we came to the story of Maeglin, Eöl will give us a hard nut to crack.

That Eöl had a relation to Thingol simply by living in Nan Elmoth is a given, so that does not explain (for me at least) what Tolkien meant with 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point'.

That Thingol is of a born genaration and not one of the awoken 144 is asured by him having a 2 brethern. Therefore we would not need Eöl to make that clear.

In the end it all will come down to close examination of the time when all these notes were written. I had no time to do that right now. So it has to wait for some other kind soul.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello, Findegil

This discussion can serve you for preparation when you arrive at the Tale of Aredhel and Eöl and Maeglin.




For me stil the best solution Tolkien came up with the story of a Tatyarin Avari. Since there was intermarraging between the clans he still could be a kin fo Thingol (who by the way seems to be akin to nearly everyone). Eöl being of Tatyarin blood would also explain why the marriage between his son Maeglin and Idril was out of question, when in other places a relatiuonship between first-cousins is allowed if the unrelated parents are not akin at all.

I am sure that, if ever we came to the story of Maeglin, Eöl will give us a hard nut to crack.
Findegil

I only can say that its my opinion too, but (I think that) the return to the Teleri side was later and in this case must be done.


That Eöl had a relation to Thingol simply by living in Nan Elmoth is a given, so that does not explain (for me at least) what Tolkien meant with 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point'.

That Thingol is of a born genaration and not one of the awoken 144 is asured by him having a 2 brethern. Therefore we would not need Eöl to make that clear.
Findegil

In this matter I had adopted a diplomatical attitude. I still think what wrote in earlier posts and will not say again, but in the text I don´t identify in any case imin, Tata and Enel with Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë, the only manifiest alussion is that of the lammas that Ingwë war the fisrt to awake, the reader will extract his proper conclusions.

Greetings.

[gondowe]

By the way, I have revised another point of divergence between yours and my text, mentioned in another post and want to share with you. That of the mention of a Third elder son of Orodreth. I stiil think he can be suitable for the story (better with other name suggested by Tolkien), but I had named him Haldir as the later form Tolkien adopted, and I had not repared (inexplicably) in the elf of Lorien in TLotR, so I changed it by Halmir, the earlier name.
So the only repeated elven name would be the "imposible to change" Rumil.

Greetings

[Findegil]

What about Galdor and Legolas? Or are they out of your version of the Fall of Gondolin? Or are you onmy side, when I argue that both of them could be the same person in Gondolin and Imladris?

What bothers me about Halmir/Haldir son of Orodreth is that in part at least the leader of Brethil with a very similar name took ofer the part in the story that this son of Orodreth has. => Slain by Orks when barring the way to Nargothrond at a similar time. Okay the death of a Man would not embitter Orodreth that much even so he might have been a close ally, which is unlikley considering the policy of secrecy. But still it seems to be to much repetition. And it is again a repetition when Finduilas the daughter is slain a similar cruel way by the orks later on in the story.

About Eöl: Yes the discussion will be helpful for sure. I agree that it is dificult to stick to idea of Eöl being of Tatyarin origin. But as said already he proberbly has a mixed origin with a strong Tatyarin-Avari strain. But here again it is the information combiner that speaks. And that side of myself the one that must restriced by others in our project to secure some succes at all.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

In the case of Legolas/Galdor, at the beggining of this thread I said that had been replaced Legolas by Galdor in the Fall of Gondolin, because I think Legonas must not be the same as in TLotR but Galdor can be the same, as Glorfindel.

In the matter of the repetition, I agree with you that a man and an elf with the same name in the same period is a bit shocking, but we have not other name from Tolkien himself. In other way it could be rare that an elf take a name of a man (like Haldir of Lothlorien), I think in every case is inversely.

A similar dead of Finduilas and Halmir as brothers, I think can even reinforce the narrative.

Greetings

[gondowe]

Hello again fellows, a days ago I have updated in the post above the structure of chapters in the Vols 1 and 2 of my version. Apart of other minor changes, the major was the inclusion of the story of Eärendil in the last tale of the Atanatarion.

I decided to do it because follow your version I did take the decision of include verse material, that makes an elongation of the text.

To the fragment of the lay of Eärendel (that I located at Nan-tathren ) and the Horns of Ylmir, after; and at the mention of the Sleeper of the Tower of Pearl, I added The happy mariners.

And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery.

In my concept of a book for the QS, (a resume of the tales), and another for the Atanatarion, the story must end with the Raising of the Star, and the Great end of the First age, must belong only to the QS.
If you think seeing my concept, what do you think?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Nice to read from you again Gondowe!

'The happy Mariners' did not make it into our version, because we thought that the tale told in it must come from a later age. Look at this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10463&page=3) for the discussion we had about that poem. Especially my post 91, were I confinced myself that the happy mariniers are Teleri-Elves sailing from Eldamar to the east to fill their ship with 'oriental sparks' and encounter the lonely singer in the tower of pearl when they are on their way back to Eldamar.

Gondowe wrote:And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery.These are interristing additions. I will have to look depper into what these poems say. But it is worth a look for sure.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello Findegil, ok, first of all, in my opinion, its only a song , not necessarily "canonically real or perfect".
But apart for the "inexplicably" mention of Gondobar, I don't see anything that gives me the impression that they go to the east. They go to the land of the Two Trees, and the orient fire is of the sun from the east in the rear of the ship. (Of course is an oppinion, a mode of see, of understand the song).

Of course we can omit the verse of Gondobar, but for example, a very nice option for me, is that we can change Gondobar for Eressëa, that is the place in what I always think when read the allusion of Gondobar. But these changes are easier for me that the texts in Spanish have not rhyme. Could you combine the older and the last versions of the poem?

....Thus they escaped their enchantment.

I know a window in a Western tower
......
beyond the country of the shining Trees.


For at last Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows.....


Greetings

[gondowe]

Again, with the addition of a Prologue written by me (in what I cited and gave thanks to this forum), I have updated the chapter structure of the whole work. Previously I had included in a part of general notes, every text I had edited apart, like the texts of the Unfinished Tales, and things like those. Now I have to said that with this three volumes and The Hobbit and TLOTR, the very whole, whole "historical" material written by Tolkien, is included in a continuum of five books. Now it only rests future modifications derived from discussions of this forum, and future publications of new material.

Greetings

[gondowe]

Hello fellows again, I have been father for second time on October 27th, and I have been very busy. With two childes at home, we have no time to be bored. And it will be for time, but I´ll try to collaborate in the measure I could.

For the moment in the few times I had and could, I finished (naturally for the moment) the whole project of the Red Book, adapting the texts of the Hobbit and TLOTR, in one volume (changing the three first chapters of the first one for those written in the 60s and rejected (published in The History of the Hobbit)), and elaborate a "fifth volume with the hobbit material from the Appendix of TLOTR, with the poems in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.
With that I have a sort of "Compilation from the copy of Findegil of Gondor of the Thain´s Book".

Greetings

[gondowe]

This is a fixed (from December 2011 and actually) structure of my “Copy from Findegil of Gondor of the Thain’s Book” in order of serving of future guide or reference.

First of all there is a small volume containing Prologues, Prefaces and Notes from Tolkien extracted from TLOTR as well as my own notes and prologues. So:

Volume 0 Introduction to the Texts of the Histories of Arda (Prologues, notes and guides of names)

Note preliminary to this edition (from me)
Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR
Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings
Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE
Note of the author on pronunciation
Note of the author on Writing and spelling
Note of the author on the Shire Records
Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE
Note of the author on translation to modern language
Nomenclature of TLotR
General Guide of Names

Volume 1

The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
(the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue)

Volume 2

Translations from the Elvish
Silmarillion

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur
Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Ents and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
. 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
. 19 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
. 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings of the Eldar
. 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi
B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-The Converse of Manwë and Eru
-Of the severance of marriage
-This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel"
C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-The Tale of Adanel
E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.
F Ambarcanta The shaping of the World

Genealogies

Maps

Volume 3

Translations from the Elvish
Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 The arriving at Vinyamar
4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
5 Voronwë
6 The quest of Gondolin
7 The hidden pass
8 The arriving at Gondolin
9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
10 The Treason of Maeglin
11 The Fall of Gondolin
12 The Flight of the exiles
13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map

Volume 4

Translations from the Elvish
The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
1 A description of the Island of Númenor
2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
3 The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
Of the return of Sauron
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion
Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of the Folk of Durin
Of the Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal men
II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
V Of Amroth and Nimrodel
VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
IX Of the origins of the Istari
X Of the Elessar
XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XII Of the Palantiri
XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen


Maps

Volume 5

On Hobbits

Of the Quest of Erebor
Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
Shire Calendar
The Tale of Years (on hobbits)
-The Great Years
-The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age
-Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring
Family Trees
Other verses and poems from the original Red Book (TAoTB and Bilbo's last poem)


Greetings

[Arvegil145]

This is a fixed (from December 2011 and actually) structure of my “Copy from Findegil of Gondor of the Thain’s Book” in order of serving of future guide or reference.

First of all there is a small volume containing Prologues, Prefaces and Notes from Tolkien extracted from TLOTR as well as my own notes and prologues. So:

Volume 0

Note preliminary to this edition (from me)
Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings
Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE
Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR
Note of the author on pronunciation
Note of the author on Writing and spelling
Note of the author on translation
Note of the author on the Shire Records
Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE
General Guide of Names

Volume 1

The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
(the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story)

Volume 2

Translations from the Elvish
Silmarillion

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur
Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Ents and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
. 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
. 19 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
. 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings of the Eldar
. 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi
B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-The Converse of Manwë and Eru
-Of the severance of marriage
-This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel"
C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-The Tale of Adanel
E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.

Genealogies

Maps

Volume 3

Translations from the Elvish
Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 The arriving at Vinyamar
4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
5 Voronwë
6 The quest of Gondolin
7 The hidden pass
8 The arriving at Gondolin
9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
10 The Treason of Maeglin
11 The Fall of Gondolin
12 The Flight of the exiles
13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map

Volume 4

Translations from the Elvish
The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
1 A description of the Island of Númenor
2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
3 The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
Of the return of Sauron
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion
Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of the Folk of Durin
Of the Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal men
II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
V Of Amroth and Nimrodel
VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
IX Of the origins of the Istari
X Of the Elessar
XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XII Of the Palantiri
XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

Fourth Part
General guide of names

Maps

Volume 5

Appendix On Hobbits

Shire Calendar
The Tale of Years (on hobbits)
-The Great Years
-The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age
-Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring
Family Trees
Other verses and poems from the original Red Book
Of the Quest of Erebor
Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire

Greetings


Hey, why don't you post this in the **unofficial Silmarillion outline** - I think it would be very helpful for the project - and it needs discussion.


Greetings, Arvegil145 (though I want to change my name:Merisu:)

[gondowe]

Because is written in this thread and here can be watched and it was posted years ago. This is my project and my chapter structure, not of this forum, in this forum, from many more years ago, had another chapter structure, but at last the composing of the texts is what matters and have the same "historical" information. That is what we have to discuss first.

Greetings.

[Arvegil145]

Because is written in this thread and here can be watched and it was posted years ago. This is my project and my chapter structure, not of this forum, in this forum, from many more years ago, had another chapter structure, but at last the composing of the texts is what matters and have the same "historical" information. That is what we have to discuss first.

Greetings.


Well, I say that because I think your outline is excellent, and I'm saying that it should be included in the thread about the outline because, with some polishing it could be the DEFINITIVE outline! :cool:

[Arvegil145]

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue

To what prologue do you refer to?

[Arvegil145]

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 The arriving at Vinyamar
4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
5 Voronwë
6 The quest of Gondolin
7 The hidden pass
8 The arriving at Gondolin
9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
10 The Treason of Maeglin
11 The Fall of Gondolin
12 The Flight of the exiles
13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star


Where did you find those chapters? Or did you make it up? I have also found a need to insert sub-chapters into "Tuor" - after all the story is 35,000 words long, and it looks ridiculous to have such a substantial chapter with no headings at all.

[Findegil]

Ah, gondowe, nice to read from you again!

Of course your chapter structure generates some questions:
What is the Content of '-Of the Orkor in your Silmarillion?
How did avoid simple repeation of text passages when you include both, the short chapters in the Silamrillion and the end of the Atanatarion which foresure is constructed from the same material?
Should not 'Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men' come earlier? I think that what is in there is from Of Dwraves and Men. If so it refers to the time before the Fall of Eregion. But then it tells so at the end, so yes, probably structur works best in that way.

Posted by Arvegil145:with some polishing it could be the DEFINITIVE outlineAt least not for this project. Some of the titles are re-translations as it seems (which could be amended by providing the original) any many are made up. Thus it does not fit to the rules that this project has given it self.

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: Arvegil145 please restirct your quoting to what is necessary as a reference to what you to comment on. Nobody will read through gondowe's structure a second time only because you reposted it.

[gondowe]

Here I am again. Fastly, with little time.

What is the Content of '-Of the Orkor in your Silmarillion?

Well it'd must be discussed when you can reach the point, but basically is a mixture of the QS/Annals/MT texts showing the typical "Some said that.... but others said that"

How did avoid simple repeation of text passages when you include both, the short chapters in the Silamrillion and the end of the Atanatarion which foresure is constructed from the same material?

You asked me time ago in this thread: Quotation from Post47

"Findegil wrote.
What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included.

Its included as the last Appendix of Volume one. E Yenonotie. The Tale of Years.

About the other matter, really its a case of repeatition, but I shortened anyway lots of it, (its a real pity that you cannot read it for being in spanish, to compare).

Anyway I feel fine with it, because its the most approached to the knowed final structure projects of the professor, if Tolkien wanted to repeat the story, amen ( evidently with other words). But we only have what we have."

Should not 'Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men' come earlier? I think that what is in there is from Of Dwraves and Men. If so it refers to the time before the Fall of Eregion. But then it tells so at the end, so yes, probably structur works best in that way.

I don't remember well now how I managed the texts, but this text together with that Of Durin's Folk in the Third Age were composed basically with Of Dwarves and Men and the Appendix of TLotR dividing the information of both ages. Of course I considered some other sources but unfortunately I had not the editing structure of yours, quoting the sources, and I would have to study deeply it. ..... When you reach the point:).

Arvegil145
I named Prologue to the text from the beginning of TCoH till is said Turin had 5 years. I though it was a "common history" to both "House of Hador Texts"

As for the chapter structure of Tuor, yes, they were more or less invented, but was discussed in this thread near the beginning. Quotation from Post 8
As might be suspected, I have a view questions:
- Since I never saw any sign of your chapterheadings, I assume you invented them. For what reason did you do that?


Yes I invented them. After the publication of The Children of Hurin I wanted that his cousin had a similar story, and that invention (I think) is not against the story and don’t changes anything wrote by Tolkien. It’s only a heading.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Thanks for the info, gondowe, and for the reminder.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

First of all sorry for bring this thread again to the first place. I only want to explain some of my thoughts about the project in my version.
That’s derived from the recent commentaries about the inclusion of philological texts into the narrative. In my opinion there is enough philological material to make one great volume or several. And I don’t think this must be the proposal of this project, for me is clear what I want, and this will not be my work. It is necessary to include all material explaining the origin of the languages and its relations, historical texts; and insert into the narrative those paragraphs and sentences that provides historical, descriptive, etc information if is inserted much material including philological roots, stems, etc in my opinion don’t work, and it would have to be added such works like: Rivers and beacon hills, notes on Óre, Eldarin fingers, hands and numerals, the whole etimologies with its addendas, the whole text of WPaP, The lexicons, Ros, whole Shibboleth, whole Q&E, whole Descending of tongues, qenya and noldorin verb and noun structures, alphabets, etc, etc, etc all published in PE and VT.
Well, I resolve some things by adding some information in the guide of names that I constructed and finally inserted in my volume 0, but this guide is out of the narrative, and if I think in my own preferences I only want to read a story, and the linguistic part left to the professionals that is what was the professor. If I want to see linguistic information I go to the sources.
I have a pity that from the beginning, much time before I discovered this page, even much time before this page was created, I started my project in spanish and without the source notes marks (I was much less professional than you), and it's too late for me to retranslate and give the source marks that in many places I don't remember from where were. I work now only by memory because I have my books printed many years ago, and only from time to time I reprint them with accumulated minor changes in many cases better retranslations.
And that’s what I want, reprint again and hope for the last time, and enjoy with the work, because I’m growing old and have a severe eye illness.
This project is endless, because there are for sure much more material unpublished, and of course the work in this page will make me do minor changes.
Lastly I want to include in this post the structure updated with the addition of my edited Ambarcanta that in its time didn’t want to include mostly because of lacking of original and useful professor maps (unless it be used maps from other sources like, say, Mrs. Fonstad). But now I changed my mind and decided include it.

Volume 0 Introduction to the Texts of the Histories of Arda (Prologues, notes and guides of names)

Note preliminary to this edition (from me)
Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR
Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings
Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE
Note of the author on pronunciation
Note of the author on Writing and spelling
Note of the author on the Shire Records
Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE
Note of the author on translation to modern language
Nomenclature of TLotR
General Guide of Names

Volume 1

The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
(the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue)

Volume 2

Translations from the Elvish
Silmarillion

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur
Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Ents and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
. 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
. 19 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
. 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings of the Eldar
. 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi
B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-The Converse of Manwë and Eru
-Of the severance of marriage
-This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel"
C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-The Tale of Adanel
E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.
F Ambarcanta The shaping of the World

Genealogies

Maps

Volume 3

Translations from the Elvish
Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 Tuor in Vinyamar
4 Voronwë
5 The quest of Gondolin
6 The hidden pass
7 The arriving at Gondolin
8 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
9 The Treason of Maeglin
10 The Fall of Gondolin
11 The Flight of the exiles
12 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
13 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
14 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
15 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map

Volume 4

Translations from the Elvish
The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
1 A description of the Island of Númenor
2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
3 The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Return of the Shadow
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of Men in Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
Of Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of Durin's Folk
Of Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal men
II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
V Of Amroth and Nimrodel
VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
IX Of the origins of the Istari
X Of the Elessar
XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XII Of the Palantiri
XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

Maps

Volume 5

On Hobbits

Of the Quest of Erebor
Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
Shire Calendar
The Tale of Years (on hobbits)
-The Great Years
-The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age
-Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring
Family Trees
Other verses and poems from the original Red Book (TAoTB and Bilbo's last poem)

Sorry for the extended thoughts, this is only my opinion and I wanted to share it with all of you. And for sure I have more things to say but now I don’t have in mind.
Greetings

[ArcusCalion]

Gondowe this project is immense and inedible and a real inspiration! This outline is incredible, and is actually closer to what I had in mind in my younger years. I may very well attempt a similar thing at some later date. This is also an excellent outline, and you should be immensely proud of what you've accomplished!!

[gondowe]

Thank you Arcuscalion. In my humble opinion this is the most closer concept the professor would think in a later time, at least according to the structure showed in the beggining of TLotR of the Thains book.
As I said before in other place, I like very much the Aelfwine trassmision but unfortunately, the hobbits are the official published way, and so, this structure of texts. We have the material we have (till now) and we must work with it. But at the end, the "historical" subcreational information is the same in whatever structure.
Greetings

[gondowe]

After reading The Fall of Gondolin (new publication), I decided to retitle one of my invented subchapters and grouping the subchapters 3 and 4 into only one entitled "Tour in Vinyamar" (as CT call in this new book)
Not important for you, I know, but I wanted to share the update in my text.
Greetings

[gondowe]

Hello. Hello. How's it going everyone. I am sorry that I have not been able to participate in anything these years. Although I see that there was not much activity anyway.
I am writing this to say that I am already in the process of reading the new TNoME book. And that I am willing to discuss the implications it may have on the TftE. I guess you guys are reading it too.
At the moment the first impression about the Time and Aging part is that it is very difficult to implement it in the chronology except for parts of the beginning. Of course I have to mature it more but I see it very difficult. Yes, there are phrases and paragraphs that can be inserted into the text.

[Findegil]

Hello gondowe,
I am 1/3 through the book. Besteht read since a long long time. And yes, it will have some impact in the project for sure.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I have begun the final third of the book, and already I think we can resolve the questions around dating and the length of the Valian Year, as well as new material to discuss about the awakening of Men and its place on the timeline. We also have some substantial new works, most of which will tie into Volume 3 of our project, especially in my (not yet posted) draft for The Laws and Customs of the Eldar. We can also discuss implications once more of the round world/flat world change, and the age of the Sun and Moon, although I suspect that we will stick with the original flat world/mythical sun and moon version. It's an exciting time for Tolkien fans, and this project in particular!

[gondowe]

Hi there. I already finished reading it days ago and it is clear that from parts II and III there is a lot of material that can be inserted in addition to what is already known.
But my main problem is how to handle the new chronology and make it consistent with the text. To begin with, it is clear that Tolkien always thought and wanted the three ambassadors to be First Born. But in the new concept he realized that it did not work and that is why he created the Cuivienyarna. So in principle I am tempted to incorporate the alternative version that the ambassadors were I, T and E with I, F and E. That way one could keep the descriptions of the Awakening that Manwë is told in the LT (something desirable).
And then this is if it is better to set the awakening at VY850 or 1000 or 1050.
Then in my opinion I believe that the Flat World should be maintained and the Awakening of Men with the first sunrise. Other things to consider modifying would be the date of birth of Galadriel, Maeglin, ... Finduilas and Gilgalad (but Orodreth !!!!).

Greetings

[gondowe]

I want only to update the estructure of my proposed Thain's Book. That was enlarged considerably after the NoME and CtH and The Cronology of TLotR. I know is not according with this project but for f is of some interest. I don't want to extend my comment on the narrative because is so difficult but the "new" Appendices contains all the (in my oppinion) worthy text useful.


Volume 0 Introduction to the Texts of the Histories of Arda (Prologues, notes and guides of names)

Note preliminary to this edition (from me)
Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR
Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings
Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE
Note of the author on pronunciation
Note of the author on Writing and spelling
Note of the author on the Shire Records
Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE
Note of the author on translation to modern language
Nomenclature of TLotR
General Guide of Names

Volume 1

The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
(the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue and some few material lost in the preliminary revision published by Hammond & Scull)

Volume 2

Translations from the Elvish
Silmarillion

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur
Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Onodrim and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves (Cuiviényarna)
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
-Of the Moon and the Sun
-Of the Lighting of Endor
-Of the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
. 18 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
-Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
-Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 19 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings and the economy of the Eldar
. 20 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 21 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 22 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 23 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 24 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 25 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 26 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 27 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 28 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 29 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 30 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A I Of the Powers of the Valar
II Of the Knowledge of the Valar
B I Of Laws and Customs among the Eldar and other matters related
-Of Youth and Growth of the Elves
-Of the Elvish Life-cycles
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-Of the severance of marriage
II The Converse of Manwë and Eru
C I -Of Death of Animals and Plants
-Of Death of Incarnate Bodies
II Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal Men
III Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men.
D Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on Gender in Elvish Languages
-Note on Eldarin, Words, Fingers and Numerals
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
-Note on Mind-Pictures

E Ambarcanta The shaping of the World
F Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.

Genealogies

Maps

Volume 3

Translations from the Elvish
Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 Tuor in Vinyamar
4 Voronwë
5 The quest of Gondolin
6 The hidden pass
7 The arriving at Gondolin
8 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
9 The Treason of Maeglin
10 The Fall of Gondolin
11 The Flight of the exiles
12 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
13 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
14 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
15 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map

Volume 4

Translations from the Elvish
The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
I Of Lifes of the Númenóreans
II Of Land ans Beasts of Númenor
III Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
IV The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Return of the Shadow
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of Men in Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
-Tal-elmar
Of Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of Durin's Folk
Of Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
II Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
III Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
IV Of Amroth and Nimrodel
V Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VI Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
VIII Of the origins of the Istari
IX Of the Elessar
X Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XI Of the Palantiri
XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

Epilogue The New Shadow

Maps

Volume 5

On Hobbits

Of the Quest of Erebor
Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
-Of Customs of the Hobbits (from Letter 214)
Shire Calendar
The Tale of Years (on hobbits)
-The Great Years
-The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age
-Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring
Family Trees
Other verses and poems from the original Red Book (TAoTB and Bilbo's last poem)

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King
(the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue and some few material lost in the preliminary revision published by Hammond & Scull).

I was wondering what exactly do you have in mind by 'some few material lost in the preliminary revision'?


Otherwise, your outline is pretty good.

[gondowe]

A description of the Edoras exterior, in the Lord of the Rings A REaders Companion p.400. " ... C. Tolkien felt thatit was only his guess that the passage was lost rather than deliberately omitted, and although a good guess it is a guess nonetheless"

Greetings

[Findegil]

That a good find! I think we have take that up into our text as well.

Respectfully
Findegil