Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[The Mouth of Sauron]

If I remember correctly, at various points in LOTR and the Aragorn/Arwen tale, Elrond asserts that his children will have "the life of the Eldar" as long as he remains in Middle Earth.

After Elrond leaves, Arwen as we know eventually dies - but does anyone have any idea what happens to Elladan and Elrohir, who according to the account Sam Gamgee gives his children, stay in Middle Earth too ?

[Inziladun]

The end of (Elrond's) sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
Letters # 153

That's what the Professor had to say about it. It would seem that after the departure of Elrond Elladan and Elrohir didn't figure much in the later histories. That would have been in keeping with the accelerating decline of the Elves in influence and importance.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

But couldn't that quote be taken to mean, "I haven't
gotten around to writing it, or maybe I'll keep it
untold to add to that sense of depth I like",
especially since it ends with:

and remain for a while. ?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" mentions that when Arwen visits Lorien after Aragorn's death it is deserted. The Elves have left. Presumably Elladan and Elrohir had also left Middle Earth by that time, because otherwise Arwen might have chosen to spend her last days with them.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" mentions that when Arwen visits Lorien after Aragorn's death it is deserted. The Elves have left. Presumably Elladan and Elrohir had also left Middle Earth by that time, because otherwise Arwen might have chosen to spend her last days with them.
What if they had died by that time? Could they have decided to have a life of a human too? Because doesn't it say in the Silmarillion that if you were of Elrond's lineage you could choose whether or not you wanted to be an elf or a human. I vaguely remember reading something about that about two weeks ago.

[Inziladun]

But couldn't that quote be taken to mean, "I haven't
gotten around to writing it, or maybe I'll keep it
untold to add to that sense of depth I like"

Of course it could. But to me that means any speculation of the fate of the two is just that: speculation. If they chose the life of the Eldar their options were limited to remaining for a while in ME and then sailing into the West, if they could find or build a ship to bear them, or staying indefinitely, until they, in the words of Galadriel, "forget and (are) forgotten". If they chose mortality, they probably had at least a couple hundred years ahead of them, comparable to Arwen, but I would again question whether they were in a position to do anything really meaningful in the Fourth Age.

[Galin]

The implication from The Lord of the Rings is that they chose mortality -- noting that Robert Foster writes: '... and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they seem to have chosen to become mortal'

Entry Elladan, The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth.

[Mnemosyne]

Eh... Foster's guide is not terribly accurate, having (I think) come out pre-Letters. If I recall correctly it also claims that sailing West granted Frodo immortality which we now know is not the case (and even then, could have guessed that it wouldn't be the case because of the way the events of Numenor played out in the appendices to LotR). Since Celeborn (who apparently sailed at an undistinguished time) also did not sail when Elrond did and we have the additional cases of Sam (probably) and Legolas, there's nothing to say that the sons of Elrond couldn't have sailed sometime in the Fourth Age.

For what it's worth (which is very little) the arguments from a literary standpoint which I've seen fanauthors make when they try to work out which kindred they think Elladan and Elrohir chose usually have them side with the elves: the only two Halfelven who we know sided with mortals had some great good that their choice accomplished. Elros founded the ruling line of Numenor, and Arwen helped to restore the glory of the Dunedain in the Renewed Kingdoms. There appears to be no similar destiny awaiting the sons of Elrond should they choose mortality.

And of course, we can't forget that these are two individuals we're talking about. They don't necessarily have to choose the same way.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I'm recalling his intro to the book correctly, Foster out-and-out refuses to include any information that doesn't appear in TH, LotR, or TS. A good example is his comment that Gandalf "may have been a Maia," and that it is "tempting" to equate him with the Maia Olorin. Tolkien plainly says in Unfinished Tales and in many other writings that the Maia Olorin IS the wizard Gandalf, but it didn't show up in the "story books" (for lack of a better term), so Foster disregards it. For me, that doesn't make him the best source for definitive information about Tolkien's works.

Anyway, I think there is one other factor to be considered in the fates of Elladan and Elrohir: their mother. They chose to go to war in Gondor with the Dunedain not because they strongly identified with mortal Men, but because they "remembered the torments of their mother" at the hands of the Enemy when she and her party had been attacked while traveling from Lothlorien to Rivendell. That they would be so strongly driven by this event, which happened many years before, is, to me, significant. They may have stayed for time after Elrond departed, perhaps because of their sister, but also perhaps because they wanted to be sure the remaining Enemy forces were defeated and either eliminated or no longer a major threat. In the end, they may not have been around when Arwen died because they desired to see their mother, healed and alive again. It was because of her that they fought so strongly against the Enemy, and I find it hard to believe that they would not want to see her again. Just a thought.

[Galin]

To my mind Foster has made a valid enough statement with respect to the Sons of Elrond however -- as I think the implication from various description in The Lord of the Rings is that the Sons of Elrond chose mortality. And I cited this entry because RF is basically going by Tolkien-published text (and Silmarillion) but not Letters.

Letter 153 was written in 1954, and in 1955 Tolkien was still working on texts which would impact this issue -- that is, the Numenorean Kings (i) Numenor, and (V) Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

To put it another way, I would find it odd if Tolkien himself did not think he was leaving such an impression. And again (if I read the textual history correctly that is), Foster's entry is not only based on Tolkien-published description, but based on text that was still being worked on after Tolkien (almost) told Peter Hastings that the end of the sons of Elrond is not told (and etc) (I say 'almost' told Hastings as IIRC Tolkien did not send this letter).

[Aiwendil]

If I'm recalling his intro to the book correctly, Foster out-and-out refuses to include any information that doesn't appear in TH, LotR, or TS. A good example is his comment that Gandalf "may have been a Maia," and that it is "tempting" to equate him with the Maia Olorin. Tolkien plainly says in Unfinished Tales and in many other writings that the Maia Olorin IS the wizard Gandalf, but it didn't show up in the "story books" (for lack of a better term), so Foster disregards it. For me, that doesn't make him the best source for definitive information about Tolkien's works.

Well, the revised edition of Foster's Guide was published in 1978 whereas UT and HoMe were published over the course of 1980-1996, if I recall correctly - so let's not be too hard on Foster! Actually I think his Guide is on the whole pretty good considering that the only Middle-earth writings available at the time were The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, the '77 Silmarillion, and The Road Goes Ever On, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

[Mnemosyne]

How does the text imply the sons of Elronds' choice, one way or the other?

[Edit: and I don't want to be too hard on Foster here, but even going with the source material he had he does seem to have published some rather unorthodox opinions. Compare Tolkien's notes in AoTB on "The Sea-bell," specifically on its authorship, with Foster's entry. Tolkien says that it's "highly unlikely" Frodo himself wrote the poem, while Foster suggests that maybe a Fairbairn found a lost text later on and inserted it into the Fourth Age editions of the Red Book. This is all fine and dandy if you're writing fan fiction (http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterview.asp?sid=6015&cid=26040), but not for a reference work!]

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Somewhere or other T mentions that after Galadriel's departure Celeborn moved to Rivendell and lived with the Sons of Elrond. When or for how long 'tis never said.

[Galin]

In revised editions Note On The Shire Records states that though Elrond had departed his sons '... long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.'

I think that Foster's entry is not simply based on the sons not sailing with Elrond however, but arguably Elrond's and Aragorn's words from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' Aragorn responds that the years of Elrond's abiding run short at last, '... and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'. Elrond answers 'Truly' but notes 'soon as we account the years'. Earlier in the N. Kings it is also noted that the children of Elrond had the choice to pass '...with him from the Circles of the World; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.'

Of course the option remains that 'with him' means 'as he did' or similar, but especially the conversation with Aragorn seems very much about timing to my mind. There's an interesting draft text called T4 in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which according to Christopher Tolkien: '...was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate, and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954.' It reads in part (concerning Elrond's children):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

Again, I realize one can work around this, but taken all together (not that Foster had this last bit to work with) Tolkien has (IMO) at least left the impression that to stay in Middle-earth when Elrond departed reflects the choice of mortality. Of course letter 153 often pops up, that they delayed their choice. Not that I toss out letters (sent or not), but The Lord of the Rings is a different animal, and the text is, in some sense at least, 'later' than the letter. Perhaps people disagree that there is the suggestion that they chose mortality here, but...

... RF used 'seem' at least :)

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

Yes, I was thinking this as well. The reason why Arwen rejects the possibility is because she made the choice to be mortal by marrying Aragorn.

As far as we know, Elladan and Elrohir didn't decide to marry mortals, so there was never any action on their part to indicate that they had decided to become Men - unless not leaving with Elrond is definitely the only requirement for them to become mortal.

Arwen had a reason for choosing to stay behind: Aragorn. She couldn't marry Aragorn and take him back to the Undying Lands, so she had to stay. What incentive could Elladan and Elrohir have had to stay behind if it automatically made them mortal?

[Galin]

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

What if they had died by that time? Could they have decided to have a life of a human too? Because doesn't it say in the Silmarillion that if you were of Elrond's lineage you could choose whether or not you wanted to be an elf or a human. I vaguely remember reading something about that about two weeks ago.

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" indicates that Arwen hasn't aged much at the time of Aragorn's death:

"She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted of the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her."

It appears from the text that she dies of grief and not old age, so it's not clear that Elladan and Elrohir would have died at this stage, had they chosen to become mortal. It has only been 120 years since Elrond has left.

[Galin]

Tolkien's letter seems to imply that the Sons hadn't made up their minds yet, but they arguably would have also been aware (being born in TA 130) that by Aragorn's day the 'choice must soon' be laid upon them -- referring to the time of Elrond's abiding.

Granted the Elvish perspective of years is different. But their Mother had already sailed, their sister chosen mortality, and 'now' their father was soon to sail -- but still no choice? If they were leaning towards immortality one would have thought this was a good time to leave Middle-earth, with their father.

Of course I'm not claiming that there is only one interpretation. One could argue the text could well mean 'with him' in the sense of choose immortality as he did, though at some later time. Letter 153 could well be the 'answer' despite what (I think) is suggested by other description.

I don't think any thread has ever solved this issue, and perhaps Tolkien would have wanted it that way.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However the "long" Tale of Years, TY4, although submitted to A&U, turned out not to be the final word- JRRT made many, many alterations between that version and the historiy printed as Appendices A and B.

I think that this is one of those cases where we have insufficient data, and where quite likely Tolkien himself couldn't make up his mind- like the revised Law of Succession in Numenor. T also had a characteristic habit when referring to something already described of expressing himself elliptically or deceptively categorically- leading in extreme cases to things like the Great Balrog Wings Flame War, or in lesser cases to the Treebeard-or-Bombadil-Eldest affair, or the all-Elves-had-dark-hair shibboleth.

Personally I think E&E eventually sailed West, because of their mother. That would mean that they could up to a point delay their choice-- but I doubt Tolkien really ever thought the question through.

[Galin]

There's an interesting note from H&S in entry...

'She was not yet weary of her days - In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963, Tolkien suggests that Arwen could have surrendered her life at the same time as Aragorn, but she was not yet prepared to do so. Although she had become mortal, by nature she was still Elvish, with the long view of life held by that immortal race, to whom 'the gift of the One to men ... is bitter to receive.'

Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Ring's Reader's Companion

[Mithadan]

This is a question with no easy resolution. From the references quoted above it seems clear that Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were granted the choice to be numbered among the Eldar or Men. The portions of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen quoted by Galin mean to me simply that they may choose to be mortal and remain in Middle Earth until they die or they may choose to take ship into the West. I do not think Elrond's departure has much to do with it. Arwen's comment 'that choice is long over' means only that she had already made her choice and had to live and die with it.

Elladan and Elrohir's fate is a matter of intriguing speculation. They loved Men enough to fight in Gondor with Aragorn, yet they loved their parents as well. Having risked all to enter Moria to save their mother, I wonder if it would have been too difficult for them to choose to stay in Middle Earth and never see her again.

There appears to be another potential contradiction that is not addressed in this thread to this point. The Akallabeth relates that the "Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny." Elrond chooses to be an Elf and Elros chooses to be a Man. This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

[Kuruharan]

This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

This is an excellent question.

I don't really have much of an answer for it, but one thing that comes to mind is maybe it has something to do with the Elven/Valar ultimate envying of Men in their ability to escape the Circles of the World. The Valar maybe persisted in giving the children of Elrond the choice because of their own (the Valar's) possibly growing desire to escape.

[Galin]

Here's my theory anyway. And if it doesn't work I might try to think up another ;)

It's based on some text from Quenta Silmarillion (section 9, The Conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road And Other Writings), in which it is said:

'(...) Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

This is from the version of QS dated mid to late 1930s. If this idea is still in play at least (and I'm not sure that it is), Arwen and her brothers were arguably mortal by default.

This might explain why the choice was extended to Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir -- one parent had chosen the fate of Elves, the other was an Elf, and without being granted other doom their children would, due to still having some measure of mortal blood, be automatically sundered from their parents. This would be a great grief as we know, and a sundering beyond death.

If this holds water, would it not seem fair to someone who might choose an Elvish fate that his children not be automatically mortal? I mean it would arguably tip the scales of the choice before it was made, as Elrond would at least want the hope that his children could pass with him Over Sea.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Once Elros had made his mind up to become mortal, his choice was binding upon his descendants. So presumably Elrond's choice should have been binding upon HIS descendants.

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien). So it's logical to assume that Elrond's descendants, being in effect Elves, could renounce immortality or sail to the West.

I think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien)

But Luthien was a very, very special case, a unique case: one where Mandos and Manwe made an exception to 'the Rules' only with Eru's express permission.

[Mithadan]

Mouth of Sauron's reference to Elrond's children having "the life of the Eldar" was a statement made by Arwen herself quoted in the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. It is interesting that Arwen should use such unqualified language.

In 'Many Partings', Arwen tells Frodo "mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter." This choice was apparently made in Caras Galadhon even before she and Aragorn were wed. Appendix A discusses Elrong learning "the choice of his daughter" shortly after Aragorn and Arwen plight their troth. Then as Aragorn speaks to Arwen as he lays in Rath Dinen, she reiterates "that choice is long over."

These quotes suggest that her unique circumstances, her love for a Man at an important juncture in time, somehow allowed her to make the Choice of Luthien, i.e. she was an Elf, by birth not by choice, who was allowed to live the life of a Man. This is consonant with the language from 'Akallabeth' I quote above and my interpretation of that language (which is logical and consistent).

Where there is conflict is the language used by Elrond, speaking to Aragorn years before Caras Galadhon. There Elrond says, as Galin mentions, 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' This implies Arwen has a choice in the matter independent of her then non-existent love for Aragorn (this might be important, these words are spoken only days after they first met and years before they fell in love).

Can the language be reconciled? Should we reject the statement in 'Akallabeth' because it was published posthumously? Should we discount the quotes in the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' becuase the appendices were completed hurriedly and likely lack the attention for detail Tolkien accorded LoTR itself? Or are the words of Elrond ambiguous enough to be interpreted otherwise?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think there's a meaningful contradiction unless we want to indulge in unrealistic legalisms. The 'legal' position regarding the Halfelven (admittedly unclear) was laid out by the Valar at the end of the First Age.

Statement one (from A&A) and Statement 2 (from Akallabeth) on the "life of the Eldar" aren't contradictory at all. Arwen is speaking in the present tense: rather obviously, she and her brothers have been enjoying the life of the Eldar for centuries, and will continue to do so for a while.

Nor is Cerin Amroth really a contradiction. Whenever according to The Rules her choice might have become operative and irreversible, as far as Arwen herself was concerned her sworn word to marry Aragorn made it inevitable at some point in the future. That doesn't mean that her "Elvish life" was suddenly terminated at that moment.

When did it happen, i.e. at what precise moment was Arwen's future permanently switched from the "quasi-immortal/Mandos" track to the "mortal/Heaven" track? Dunno. Possibly when Elrond took ship, but I don't think so. It probably was the act of physical union with a mortal, by analogy to Melian becoming fully incarnate by similar means- and already just after her wedding Arwen told Frodo that she could not sail West. Perhaps we could also look at Elladan and Elrohir, who plainly stayed on past Elrond's departure, but who also (I am convinced) would never have abandoned their parents and pretty much everyone they had ever known for all eternity, and thus remained of the Elf-kind.

It's very murky what exactly the "change" was in Arwen or when it occurred. I'm not sure there was any physical chenge at all. When Aragorn died, 120 years after their wedding, she was "not yet weary," a stock Tolkien phrase for unaged. My cautious hypothesis is that the "change" was psychological, and spiritual: Arwen laid herself down and died because she couldn't live without Aragorn, not because she 'had to' by virtue of some external compulsion; and the Choice meant that she was permitted to follow him rather than be immured in Mandos.

This implies Arwen has a choice in the matter independent of her then non-existent love for Aragorn

Well, yes, she does: but why would she choose to become mortal, except for her love for a mortal? (To take a trivial analogy: I always had the theoretical option to become a Catholic, but no real reason to exercise it and join the Rome Team until I married a Papist).

[Galin]

In 1972 Tolkien appears to make a distinction (letter 345): 'Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.'

To my mind Arwen's satement: 'Do not wonder! for the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar.' isn't exactly the same thing as simply saying 'we are Elves' (in any case). I think her choice historically echoes that of Luthien (an immortal in any event), in ways similar enough to draw connections, but as WCH notes, Luthien was a unique case.

[Faramir Jones]

We should remember that while Arwen and her brothers had Elrond Halfelven as their father, they had Celebrian, an Elf, as their mother, so were in 'ethnic' terms 75% elvish. :)

[skip spence]

It's very murky what exactly the "change" was in Arwen or when it occurred. I'm not sure there was any physical chenge at all. When Aragorn died, 120 years after their wedding, she was "not yet weary," a stock Tolkien phrase for unaged. My cautious hypothesis is that the "change" was psychological, and spiritual: Arwen laid herself down and died because she couldn't live without Aragorn, not because she 'had to' by virtue of some external compulsion; and the Choice meant that she was permitted to follow him rather than be immured in Mandos.


I think you are right on the money, WCH.

I did not get the impression that Arwen became mortal or had death enforced on her when she married Aragorn. Nor that she had aged physically by the time she laid herself down in Lorien or was ever going to. And I don't think she would have been barred from entering the blessed realm were she to repent and sail West after the death of her husband. But this was never an option for her, although she might have wavered slightly when returning to the woodland realm. She had made the choice of Lúthien, to share the fate of her love, and had no intention of backing out of the deal. An absurdly idealised love story, but Tolkien was a grade A romantic, I suppose.

Makes you think of Elros too... Did he 'accept his gift' as a compulsion due to physical weariness, ie aging, or did he eventually do it to stay true to his word? He too was only a quarter of a man.

[Inziladun]

I think you are right on the money, WCH.

I did not get the impression that Arwen became mortal or had death enforced on her when she married Aragorn. Nor that she had aged physically by the time she laid herself down in Lorien or was ever going to. And I don't think she would have been barred from entering the blessed realm were she to repent and sail West after the death of her husband.

I must disagree. She had made her choice, and as Galin pointed out earlier, she was then bound to mortality. The quote Galin gave of her response to Aragorn's premise that she could "repent and go to the Havens" says not that no ships were available for her to board, but that none would bear her, and that she must abide by her decision, not that she merely wished to do so.

[Galin]

In letter 153 Tolkien does refer to the choice as irrevocable, and that it may be delayed but not permanently -- of course this is the very same letter that says the Sons of Elrond delayed their choice after Elrond sails! OK I can't fairly play both sides of that!

But in any case I think the choice is irrevocable, and though Arwen's response to Aragorn is open to interpretation, she does say she must abide the Doom of Men, whether she will or nill -- if Arwen is saying she must because there's no physical ship around -- in my opinion that loses force as far as the tale is concerned (that is, she is allowed to make a very important and hard decision, but then can repent when it gets tough to abide by it).

And still we know that Legolas built a ship after Aragorn died, which would arguably make her statement (if indeed not merely a poetic way to say 'it's too late my choice has already been made') not even so with respect to the possibility of finding a ship to sail West. Arwen is not some poor maid of Gondor of course, surely the wrights of Ithilien could have made her a vessel if desired.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Certainly Arwen was legally under a ban, not unlike that which had applied to her grandmother but of course for very different reasons. No elvish ship would have permitted her to board; and even had a ship of Men somehow found the Straight Road, she would not have been admitted. Her Aman visa had been cancelled.

The 'official witness' for legalistic purposes would likely have been Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as the plentipotentiary of the Valar in the context of Frodo. At what point was Arwen's "choice" deemed to have become effective? Either upon her marriage, or perhaps in a definitive statement to Gandalf as Manwe's temporary viceregent, I would venture.

But this of course implies nothing about some alteration to her body,* her hroa, which was of the Elvenkind, and thus immune to aging and sickness. One could I suppose imagine an "Oops-Arwen" lingering in Midle-earth for centuries, unable to sail West and unwilling to die, perhaps akin to the 'monsters' of Aman Tolkien posits. But instead she dies of her own (reluctant) free will.

*The movies' "Arwen is dying" rubbish, besides being nonsensical, is the most glaring evidence that PBJ never understood the book they were trying to adapt.

[Mithalwen]

I would have thought that Arwen's choice became final on her marriage. anything else makes a mockery and a nonsense of the pain of her choice for Elrond and her kindred. Had she been able to marry Aragorn AND remain accounted amongst the Eldar, Elrond would have surely waited for Aragorn's death before leaving - given his lifespan it would have been the equivalent of a mortal delaying about a year and a half (yes I have done the sums, sad bean counter that I am). For Arwen not to share Aragorn's mortality seems completely alien to Tolkien's concept of marriage or at least these idealised unions..

I am sure that Arwen did not age in body and thus her fate must have seemed all the harder - it takes bodily distress beyond hope of healing for most of us to contemplate death, as a gift. I think she died of grief.

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

As for Elladan, Elrohir (and indeed Celeborn), I guess they were on some mopping up detail and despite thier close association with the Dunedain I think they probably passed West for the reasons outlined by Ibri.

[Gordis]

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And it's interesting (though of uncertain import) that the Lords of Dol Amroth were never accounted "Half-elven;" just Men with an Elvish strain.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Arwen's statement to Aragorn on his deathbed that "there is now no ship that would bear me hence", when considered against the background that Legolas had yet to build his ship in Ithilien, is I think significant.

The physical ability to go West was still therefore an option for Arwen, because a ship would become available. So she either underwent some kind of physical change becoming mortal, and/or was banned from the West, and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

The same kind of strictures surely didn't apply to Elladan and Elrohir and I'm pretty certain they remained of elven-kind and could go West any time they chose during the Fourth Age.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

Well, Tolkien expressly denied this last option.

It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority'....No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

He then says something which bears on the matter of Arwen herself:


and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'.

This is doubly interesting: the implication (reinforcing others) that by the time of Arwen's discussion with Frodo in the garden, the Choice was already operative (before Elrond's sailing); and also the implication that those of the Elvenkind were somehow in closer "communication" (whatever that means) than mortals.


What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange.

There is a trend in Tolkien, at least in his later reflections on his work, that 'exceptions' were granted specifically in those cases where a Divine Plan was involved: Melian's becoming incarnate and bearing a child; Luthien's becoming mortal and bearing a half-Elven child; Tuor's finding Gondolin, marrying an Elf and siring Earendil (and, we think, becoming an Elf himself); and Glorfindel's being released and re-embodied not just for his heroism, but specifically because his heroism ensured Earendil's survival. To this we might add the only other Noldorin Exile we know affirmatively to have been released from Mandos, Finrod: his sacrifice allowed the quest of the Silmaril to be achieved, and ultimately the "divine" strain in Men.

[Mithalwen]

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

You misunderstand me. I am perfectly aware of who Mithrellas was! I meant that the marriage of Imrazor and Mithrellas doesnt fit in with the idea that Arwen had to give up her elvish life to marry Aragorn and might indicate that theoretically she might have done otherwise . If a silvan elf could marry a mortal and remain Elvish (and presumably pass into the West or return to her own people after it seems unlikely that Arwen would have to if Elrond were prepared to delay his departure (and thus the time of choice ) while Aragorn lived.

If you consider the other Elven/mortal unions that were desired (by one party at least) but not realised (Andreth/Aegnor & Turin/Finduilas), then the sundering of fates that is the main argument against. I don't have Morgoth's Ring with me but in The Silmarillion, Gwindor says " It is not fitting that the Elder children of Iluvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive. But this man is not Beren". Now admittedly Gwindor was not to my knowledge in the confidence of the Valar but he was on the money in other matters.

Fate did suffer the union of Imrazor and Mithrellas for no higher purpose that to illustrate the ennobling qualities of even lesser elven bloodlines and to provide in Imrahil (always a favourite minor character of mine) an example of how Denethor should have been both as a viceroy and kinsman to Faramir. I find it highly unlikely that such nobility should have in it's origins a forced marriage even if a silvan elf (unlike one Eldar) could survive such an event let alone bear children against her will.

Earendil gets the choice because he goes to Aman. Mandos (whose words, one imagines, have more clout in such matters than most) says, "Shall mortal man step living on the Undying lands and yet live?" The matter only is discussed and decided because of Ulmo's challenge. This begs the question, what did Mandos decide with regard to Dior (and most likely Elured and Elurin) when they arrived in his halls before this time when he was presumably acting on his own initiative. He seems to have the default position that it is the father's race that counts in which case Dior was mortal. Yet he had an Elven wife and it is reasonable to assume that if he had been given the choice he would have chosen to be of the Eldar for her sake at least as Earendil did for the sake of Elwing. I do think it is highly unlikely in the light of the concepts of marriage expressed in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar - and of his own Catholicism, that Tolkien would have allowed any who had the choice. to choose a different eternal fate to their spouse.

Yes it can be hard to actually carry out things we have long committed to however wholeheartedly and it must have been particularly hard for Arwen that she did not suffer the physical decline that reconciles the mind to death as release, and that Aragorn gave up his life of his own will but it would subvert the whole thing is she had some get out clause at that stage.

As for Elrond learning of Arwen's choice the next words reconcile it to the earlier reference "When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he... found the doom long feared none the easier to endure.... I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending." Arwen was born in the image of Luthien and to Elrond, farsighted beyond the usual Elvish intuition regarding their children, history repaeting must have always been a possibility - especially when she hadn't found a nice elf-boy to settle down with after a few thousand years... ;) .

In the same paragraph Elrond says that Arwen "shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause". Elrond presumably knows the score and there is no possibility expressed that Arwen could marry Aragorn without choosing mortality. Aragorn also says to Arwen if she cleaves to him she must renounce the Twilight .

However though the choice is made it is only absolute when the condidtions are fulfilled and marriage has taken place for if Aragorn had died in the War of the Ring surely Arwen could have sailed West . After all Arwen's "I will cleave to you Dunadan..|" is expressing intent/desire.

The question of why the choice of mortality is binding on descendents while that of being immortal is not is also answered to my satisfaction at least in Appendix A "the Valar were not permitted to take from them (the Numenoreans) the Gift of Men. From the immortal perspective, release from the burden of immortal life was such a precious gift that anyone with the slightest entitlement to it should not be denied the opportunity. This certainly makes sense when you consider that Elrond's children were overwhelmingly immortal by bloodlines.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Dior is a very interesting case, especially since it could be argued that Luthien was already mortal when she and Beren actually married. But it's plain that the Valar hadn't really thought things through when Earendil turned up! (Unfortunately Dior was only 36 when he was killed, so we have no idea whether he had the "youth of the Eldar" or not).


According to Manwe in QS (1937):

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.

This would imply that Dior and his sons were accounted Men. But would the folk of Doriath have accepted such a short-lived king, even if he was Luthien's son?

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

[Galin]

And if the QS idea is held to be true, then Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are automatically mortals to my mind... that is, if Elrond or Elros chooses immortality here he will yet have automatically mortal children with respect to death (as they will still have some measure of mortal blood).

My theory is that the Children of Elrond must at least be extended the choice in order to make Elrond's choice fair to begin with (and the same with Elros had he chosen an immortal fate).

In this way, no person with mortal blood (in any measure) is automatically withheld from a mortal death -- release from the Circles of the World and time. And no children are automatically sundered from their parent if that parent chooses immortality.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And if the QS idea is held to be true, then Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are automatically mortals to my mind... that is, if Elrond or Elros chooses immortality here he will yet have automatically mortal children with respect to death

Well, yes: but of course in 1937 Elrond's children hadn't been invented yet! And Arwen having a Choice to make became an essential element in the strory of Aragorn as it developed.

I think therefore that your 'revised rule' pretty well sums up what Tolkien came to believe as a result of the LR, modifying what had been a firm rule before he started it.

Back to the Dioscuri: it's interesting that to the extent they are described, they do not "pass" as Elves: "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less somber is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell."

And then there is the passage from a draft of Appendix A, describing their role at the Field of Celebrant: "In the forefront of the charge they saw two great horsemen, clad in grey, unlike all the others, and the Orcs fled before them." I don't want to lean too heavily on a single adjective, but one could infer that if they were "great" even among the tall Northmen, that the brethren were quite large persons indeed, more "Mannish" than "Elvish" in build, if you will.


By the way, if anyone cares, Arwen and her brothers were not half-elves, but 78.125-percent-elves:

18.75% Men (3/16)
17.1875% Noldor (11/64)
7.8125% Vanyar (5/64)
53.125% Teleri (17/32)
3.125% Maiar (1/32)

Elrond himself was a nine-sixteenths-elf.

(I didn't distinguish between Sindar and Teleri of Aman because of Celeborn's uncertain status)

[Mithalwen]

Ah but don't forget that Legolas was comparing them to a bunch of hairy Dunedain rangers dressed for the worst that the wild could throw at them, and with the noted height of their maternal grandparents they were unlikely to be short by the measure of the elves - however I expect the mannish blood may well have made them more strapping than the average elf... though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine... :eek:

[William Cloud Hicklin]

though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine...

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear.... :eek::eek::eek:

[skip spence]

I must disagree. She had made her choice, and as Galin pointed out earlier, she was then bound to mortality. The quote Galin gave of her response to Aragorn's premise that she could "repent and go to the Havens" says not that no ships were available for her to board, but that none would bear her, and that she must abide by her decision, not that she merely wished to do so.

As I read the story Arwen hasn't aged when Aragorn dies. Although I don't think so, it is of course possible she would have died a natural death from old age had she carried on - remember Elros lived unwearied for around 500 years - but to me that's a moot question. As is talking about the 'legal' situation regarding her Valinor entry VISA, although I appreciate WCH's and Galin's efforts on the subject.

The choice of Arwen, as an descendant of Eärendil, is of course to share the fate of mortal Men and leave the circles of the world, or to sail West with her father and remain bound to Arda until the end. When she gives her heart to Aragorn, she is taking the former path, which I think in practice means that when she comes face to face with Mandos sooner or later he will send her soul to where Men go (Heaven, I suppose), and not the Halls of Waiting. Within the context of the story, the idea of Arwen repenting of her choice and begging for admittance on a ship heading West, thus ie abandoning Aragorn, or just living on in Middle earth, perhaps joining Maglor in his wailing, is preposterous. We may speculate about many what ifs, but in the light of Tolkien's (in-book) idealised view of love and marriage, there were only two options for Arwen: to join Aragorn in life and death or to remain with her father and pass West. The technicalities of the choice and its consequences beyond this is speculative and in the end without import - well, apart from the continuation of this thread, which certainly has a value of its own. :)

Edit: Jeez, the mental picture of Arwen the Warrior Princess is not a pretty one haha.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Back to the Dioscuri: it's interesting that to the extent they are described, they do not "pass" as Elves: "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less somber is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.")

I think you could easily interpret that description the opposite way. They stand out from the Rangers, but the Rangers are not Elves. The description says Elladan and Elrohir are "fair and gallant as Elven-lords" - that certainly sounds as if they look like Elves to me!

[Mithalwen]

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear.... :eek::eek::eek:

Oh William, you certainly picked that ball up and ran with it... taking the merely formidably athletic to the positively Wagnerian... which may be a valid source but scary.....After all, the standards of beauty in ME may have been rather more Rubenesque than usally supposed. Not that I have a problem with that in itself only with the extrapolated mental image of Luthien dancing for Beren looking like one of the corp de ballet in Fantasia *snork*.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

On Rubenesque heroines- I doubt it. One of T's favorite adjectives for good-lookin' wimmen, besides "fair," is "slender:" Goldberry, Galadriel, Eowyn and p'raps others all get the label. And Luthien is "lissome", which can be taken as the antonym of "hippo."

[Mithalwen]

Oh I know ... and of course Luthien is so linked with Edith who was very far from being even betjemanesque...
but some how my mind's eye is refusing to expect the overwhelming textual and contextual evidence ... my bad...;)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

It's a description by one of the characters, not by the narrator. The character then says "and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond". Which I interpret as saying "Silly me, of course they look like elf-lords, they are the sons of the Lord of Rivendell himself". I don't think it is ever suggested that Elrond himself looks more like a Man than an Elf.

I suspect that not all Elves necessarily have a noble and gallant bearing - I liken Elladan and Elrohir to Elves like Gil-Galad and Glorfindel. Elves who are handy with a sword and a spear and also born to rule.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal. They were just mortal men with really LONG lifespans.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal.

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

[Galin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway?

I would say both Elros and Elrond's children had the same choice in potential (both are 'potential immortals' for example), but only the children of the immortal need be given the choice.

The mortal (once chosen) will essentially restore the natural order of Eru without sundering child from parent, and the special dispensation given to Earendil and Elwing need not be extended yet again in this circumstance.

[Mithadan]

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves. Elros chose to be a mortal Man and his wife was mortal as well. The children of Elros were Men and thus could not be denied the Gift of Iluvatar. I do not think that a residual percentage of Elvish blood would change this conclusion.

The Half-Elven created a dilemna for the Valar, which was resolved by a hard and fast rule, at least for those who chose mortality. The applicable quote is "in this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged. Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros had this choice.

Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well? Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no. The quotes attributed to Elrond, above, and the excerpts from Letters, suggest the answer may be yes. Arwen's statements are equivocal; she says that she was granted the choice of Luthien, which is a different matter altogether. Yet even Elrond's statement is somewhat equivocal. He says 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' While this hints at the existence of a choice, it may be that all he means is that she is an Elf and whether or not she departs with him into the West, she remains an Elf.

If we accept Manwe's statement, Elrond's children have no choice. Elrond's decision is binding upon them. If this is the case, maybe only Arwen was granted the choice of Luthien. Given Elrond's grief at their parting "that should endure beyond the ends of the world", it seems clear that she is granted leave to live the life of a mortal Man. She did not merely die of grief as an Elf. Perhaps this is the simplest answer; Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen lacked the choice of the Half-Elven and Arwen's was a special case.

[Aiwendil]

Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no.

But unless I'm much mistaken, that quote comes from QS37, which was written before Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen were invented.

I think that in light of that fact, it's much easier to suppose that Manwe's speech is to be amended than that Tolkien's statement in Letters was blatantly false.

[Mithadan]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

This is, of course, the difficulty in attempting to analyse this and many other issues in any of Tolkien's writings beyond the Hobbit and LoTR. We can drive ourselves crazy arguing about whether CT's Silmarillion is in any way "authoratative', and what JRRT intended and when.

Letter 153 dates to 1954 and discusses Elladan and Elrohir delaying their choice and attributes the choice to all of the Half-Elven. This Letter also states that Elros' choice was irrevocable and binding upon his descendants, by the way. Letter 211, from 1958, states that the names Elladan and Elrohir both signify "Elf+Man".

From these references, we can make predictions about what Tolkien may ultimately have decided, but even then there is no certainty. Until a final version hits the bookshelves, he could change his mind, as he often did. The problem is he never published the Silmarillion or any of the related works found in Unfinished Tales and HoME. And the last thing I want to do now is try to decide what is "canon". ;)

[Galin]

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves.

If this is in response to my recent post I must emphasize my 'in potential' :)

(...) Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well?

'But to the Children of Elrond a choice was also appointed...' (Appendix A). Tolkien's letter seems in agreement with this much, that they too had a choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

And taken direct from QS (1937)- Tolkien never returned to the Voyage of Earendil post-LR (save some cursory name-changes).

The work of the Fifties only got as far as Turin's death (+Hurin in Brethil).

[Galin]

And WCH means the speech in the constructed Silmarillion is direct from the 1937 Silmarillion (Manwe's speech), but not exactly, as (for example) the part I refer to (and WCH quoted)...

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

... is not in the 1977 version.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

[Galin]

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

Oops. Was this from a private communication?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

No, it's just my surmise: but I reckon it would be seen as 'superseded' after Elrond's children were invented and an extended Choice into the third generation added.

[Galin]

Oh, OK.

I'm sure Christopher Tolkien had his reasons, but maybe they were something other than having to do with Elrond's children? maybe Elrond's children would have been 'default mortal' (by having some measure of mortal blood), but yet they had other doom extended to them?

[CSteefel]

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).
Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

It is not stated what happened to the two brothers, but it seems that they would have been mentioned somewhere in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen if they were still around 120 years after Elrond left. The same might be said of Celeborn, however, since one would think that Arwen might seek out her grandfather at this point. The implication is that all of the High Elves were gone by this time...

[CSteefel]

On the subject of Arwen's death (or the reason for it), I take it as being similar to the acceptance of death by Aragorn himself, and his Numenorean ancestors. They because weary with life and gave it up at some level willingly, that is, without descending into decrepitude and senility. It is said in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen that initially

She was not weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of mortality...

but that she quickly became so once Aragorn died, since

the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter...

Interestingly, the situation seems a little different with respect to Luthien, whose death seems to have been accelerated by the fact that she held one of the Simaril...

[Mithalwen]

Oh, OK. But I'm not sure why it need be superseded. Can't Elrond's children be 'default mortal' by having some measure of mortal blood? Unless (as happened) other doom was also extended to them.


If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

[Galin]

If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

Well, I mean mortal by default unless (as I say) '(as happened) other doom was also extended to them.' -- meaning they would have been mortal, just like Elros and Elrond would have been mortal, but other doom was granted to them. Manwe said:

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

But he adds: 'in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons...' which appears to say he is given power in this matter to grant a doom other than that which would normally occur (both Earendil and Elwing were 'potential immortals' once given the choice, and as it happens, they both chose immortality). Much later Tolkien writes (albeit in draft):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

OK, they had some measure of mortal blood anyway, and should have been mortal by default -- but they were not mortal or immortal by default by virtue of being given a choice -- and had they not been granted other doom they would have been automatically sundered from their parents in fate (and note that all these beings with mortal blood are not being withheld the gift of God).

In any event we have Tolkien-published text that all three children were given the choice. So, for myself, I see no necessary conflict here (so far! that is), and have been submitting the idea that if Manwe's speech was still in play, then Elros' children were also default mortal -- but they need not be given the choice, for his choice (and he must be free to choose mortality or immortality without notable constraint in the first place, to have a true and fair enough choice to begin with), once made, meant that they would not be automatically sundered from their parents while (basically) the natural order of Eru was restored in that line -- the 'natural order' as illuminated by Manwe (QS, Lost Road version) before he pronounced that he could yet give special dispensation in the specific matter at hand.

And the power to do so, I think, must have come from Eru.

[CSteefel]

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.

[Inziladun]

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

(Elves) cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

[Galin]

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

The life of the Eldar until the choice is made, that's how I would put it -- at least with respect to fate, which is the main concern.

'But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.'

As I read it this can easily mean that Arwen will have no reason to choose mortality -- in other words, Elrond knows his daughter, and thus knows she will likely pass Over Sea with him if Aragorn were not in the picture. Aragorn has just said (directly before this) that the choice must soon be laid on your children, and Elrond responded 'Truly'... and then goes on to say the part you quoted. This fits with the earlier statement in Appendix A.

Arwen is not default immortal nor default mortal by virtue of the choice -- and Luthien is an exception. Arwen's choice merely echoes that of Luthien's, and she would have arguably chosen an Elven fate had not Aragorn been in the picture (again, which is what I glean from the quote you posted).

Theoretically 'a mortal' of course, but as the history turned out, specifically Aragorn and Beren.

[CSteefel]

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.
Interesting perspective.

Otherwise, I might have guessed that there was something about the Elven life that left the individuals disconnected--Elros, for example, was offered a chance to rule a kingdom. The argument against would be that Elrond was able to found and lead Rivendell for thousands of years, although at the end of the Third Age certainly the Elves were marginalized. Perhaps initially the important role for Elrond beyond that of a mostly spiritual and scholarly life was less clear. For Arwen, it would also be a choice between going to the Undying Lands or having some part in ruling a kingdom of men. Even before the First Age, we see Galadriel getting antsy to strike out on her own and rule a kingdom, which is one of the explanations for her leaving for Middle Earth in the first place.

[Galin]

Well, it's a mortal perspective that sometimes puts the Elvish longevity ('immortality' of the Elves) above the gift of God to Men, but also, there is the idea that the gift will come to be envied by the Elves, and 'which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy' (from The Silmarillion, chapter Of The Beginning Of Days).

In letter 156 (1954) Tolkien wrote that in the view of the myth, Death, or the mere shortness of human life-span, is not a punishment for the Fall, and: 'The attempt to escape it is wicked because 'unnatural', and silly because death in that sense is the Gift of God (envied by the Elves), release from the weariness of Time.'

And in 1958, draft letter 212:

'Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric (...) This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death -- not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one.'

In 1963 (letter 245) Tolkien says that the Elves believed death meant: 'liberation from the circles of the world', and was in this respect to them enviable. And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is borne.' And in the Athrabeth (1959-ish) Finrod does say that: 'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. (...) But is it not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that comes soon.' And in the Commentary to the Athrabeth: 'men were, of course, in general entirely ignorant of the 'Shadow Ahead' which conditioned Elvish thought and feeling, and simply envied Elvish 'immortality'.

After the Athrabeth, Tolkien makes the point that it is a conversation, and it may have some interest for men who start with similar beliefs or assumptions to those held by the Elvish King Finrod. And it is specifically said that the Elves, observing that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men), held that death was natural, and that the fear (plural of fea) of Men left Time sooner or later, and never returned. More generally, in 1956 Tolkien explained (letter 186):

'The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.'

And in his essay on Fairy Stories: 'And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy-stories provide many examples and modes of this (...) Fairy-stories are made by men not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness.'

And it might be added too that immortality is the natural state of the Elves of course, and Tolkien refers to this also as a special gift to them: 'Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (...) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.' These last two bits of information come once again from the famed letter 153 -- I note this considering that I think, in the books, Tolkien has a least implied the Sons of Elrond chose mortality -- versus this letter where he says they delayed their choice after Elrond left, but what can I do.

:)

[Alfirin]

A thought occurs to me, if (as some suggested) elros's children should have been elegible for "the choice" (I'm not saying they were, only that some of those on the board suggested they should have been being part elf) that shouln't Eldarion have had the same opportunity? After all he was also part elf. In fact he is slightly more elf than Elros's children they are 1/4 and he is 3/8 or more accurately very slighty more than 3/8 (the "slightly more is becuse if Aragorn is a descendent of decendent of the Kings of Numernor, he has a few dribbles of Elros's blood in him too. How much however, can't be accurety determined for a simple reason, namely that while his paternal amount could be determined ( 1/2 to the n where n is the number of gererations between Aragorn and Elros) it's a fair bet that after a few generations many of the Numernorian ancestors would have took wives who were distant relatives (Numernor didn't have a huge population, and royal/noble families tend to inbreed quite a bit anyway whether by law or custom) and who would have varios amounts of Elros's blood in them too so to get the true amount in Eldarion you'd need to know all of his female ancestors geneologies as well.)

[Mithadan]

Before letting this issue go, I want to take one last shot at making sense of the matter. Rather than trying to interpret snippets of text, I'd like to look at the issue dispassionately based upon lineage and parentage, as, presumably, the Valar would have needed to look at the issue when they decided it at the end of the First Age.

Beren was a Man. Luthien, despite her lineage by birth, received leave to be counted as mortal and returned to Beleriand with Beren... "for a time". Both were mortal. Dior was a Man, not a Half-Elf. Tuor and Idril begot Earendil, a true Half-Elf. Dior wedded Nimloth, an Elf, and begot Elwing, a Half-Elf. Elrond and Elros, sons of Earendil and Elwing were true mixed bloods, and were given leave to choose. Elros chose to be a Man and married... whatever her name was, a Man, and begot Mannish children and descendents. Elrond, who chose to be an Elf, married Celebrian, an Elf. Their Children are... Elves. Arwen is given the choice of Luthien and chooses to be numbered among the Men. Elladan and Elrohir have no such choice, they are Elves.

Pick the logic apart people! :smokin:

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The hypothesis (that E&E are simply Elves and have no choice) founders on the data:

These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

'... and the choice must soon be laid on your (Elrond's) children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'

The end of (Elrond's) sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

Moreover, Manwe's declaration cited earlier, although admittedly written before Elrond's children were invented, noetheless undergirds a fundamental dogma of Tolkien's 'theology:' the Gift of Men can never be taken away. Elrond's children, since they have Mannish blood, would by default be Men but for their special dispensation; and in all events they must have the option of becoming fully Men.

It doesn't matter that E&E are 78% Elvish by descent- the Mannish element in their lineage cannot be ignored or denied, save by their own free choice.

[Galin]

I agree with WCH on that -- and there's another letter too, where Tolkien states that Arwen was not an Elf. But The Letters of JRR Tolkien is proving a mixed bag for me on this issue in general. Also, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the two mentions (and only mentions?) that confirm Elladan and Elrohir remained behind after Elrond sailed were only added to the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings in the 1960s.

Not that that proves anything of course, but if true might give a better idea of the chronology anyway.

[Mithadan]

One last post to this thread, then I will say no more on this issue. The problem I have here is not that I necessarily disagree with the textual analyses that have been ably set forth by various members here. Rather, my issue is simply that one of the great appeals that Middle Earth has for me is its internal inconsistency, and here is one point where it is inconsistent. The children of Elrond and Elros all genetically possess elements of Mannish blood, assuming the "science of genetics" bears any real relevancy to the interpretation of mythology. To me, this means they should all be treated the same unless there is a good reason to the contrary.

The analysis I set forth in my last post explains the state of matters as we see them in LoTR. The problem is that the solution I outline is not what Tolkien appears to have settled upon. Rather, he treats the children of Elros and Elrond differently because... well just because. The importance of the Eru's gift cannot be the answer for why similarly situated persons are treated differently; Elrond's children have less Mannish blood than those of Elros, but based upon the analyses of multiple posters here, the presence of any Mannish blood is significant.

I suggest that genetics and the presence of physical Mannish blood does not determine this issue, else both sets of cousins would have possessed the choice regardless of the choice of their sires. Further Tolkien, in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar makes it clear that "[f]rom the beginning the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits" The fëar of Men and Elves determine their fundamental nature, not their hroar or bodies. The fëar of Elves "far excelled over the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."

It is the fëar that determine the nature of Men and Elves, not their bodies or their blood. When Half-Elven make their choice, it is a change to the spirits not to their bodies. So genetics has nothing to do with the effect of a Half-Elf's choice over the nature of their offspring. Elros' fëa was mortal as was his wife's and, accordingly, his children's spirits were Mannish. Elrond and Celebrian's fëar were Elvish. Why should the spirits of their children be otherwise. This is the problem I have here.

[Aiwendil]

Mithadan wrote:
The problem is that the solution I outline is not what Tolkien appears to have settled upon. Rather, he treats the children of Elros and Elrond differently because... well just because. The importance of the Eru's gift cannot be the answer for why similarly situated persons are treated differently; Elrond's children have less Mannish blood than those of Elros, but based upon the analyses of multiple posters here, the presence of any Mannish blood is significant.


I disagree, and would respectfully suggest that your argument here misses the point of the 'Gift of Eru' argument. You ask why Elrond's children are treated differently from Elros's; in other words, why is there an asymmetry between the cousins? The answer is that it's because there's an asymmetry between Men and Elves. Elros's children "ought" to be human, because both of their parents are. Elrond's children "ought" to be Elves, because both of their parents are. But the rule is that the Gift of Eru cannot be forcibly taken away from anyone with any Mannish heritage. So Elrond's children must be given the choice. Elros's children are not given the choice because there is no analogous rule to the effect that one with Elvish heritage cannot have immortality taken away. They have Elvish blood, but due to the asymmetry of the Gift of Eru, Elvish blood does not necessitate the option of immortality, whereas Mannish blood does necessitate the option of mortality.

One can perhaps dispute that account by calling into question the validity of Tolkien's statements in Letters and elsewhere, but I do not think one can make the charge of inconsistency in it. It coheres and it agrees with what is said in LotR.

It is the fëar that determine the nature of Men and Elves, not their bodies or their blood. When Half-Elven make their choice, it is a change to the spirits not to their bodies. So genetics has nothing to do with the effect of a Half-Elf's choice over the nature of their offspring. Elros' fëa was mortal as was his wife's and, accordingly, his children's spirits were Mannish. Elrond and Celebrian's fëar were Elvish. Why should the spirits of their children be otherwise. This is the problem I have here.

Well, one might first of all note that Tolkien stressed that there is a strong connection between a fea and its hroa. One can influence the other, and vice versa. And clearly the differences between Men and Elves were not solely spiritual.

But as for your question - is there necessarily anything problematic with the fea of the child differing from the fear of the parents? Certainly, there's no logical impossibility involved there. And, apparently, Tolkien didn't feel that there was a metaphysical impossibility either.

There's also an interesting supposition behind your argument here: that there are Elvish fear and there are Mannish fear, and that Elvishness or Mannishness is an intrinsic, perhaps unalterable, attribute of the spirit. I think we must question to what extent this is true. Yes, human spirits leave Arda after death while Elvish spirits do not; but does this imply any particular difference between the two classes of spirits themselves, beyond the difference in their ultimate fates? It seems plain, at least, that the Elvishness or Mannishness of a fea could be changed: Luthien provides an unambiguous case of an Elvish spirit becoming Mannish. When this happened, Luthien's soul, her will, her consciousness did not change. She had the same fea before and after; only its fate was different.

I suggest that a fea itself is not intrinsically Elvish or Mannish, though in most cases a particular fate is attached to it the moment it enters the world, due to its parentage. But that fate could be altered (as in Luthien's case); and in the case of Elrond's children, to whom the choice was granted even before they were born, neither fate would be prescribed to the fea when it first entered the world.

[Mithadan]

1

[Inziladun]

1

Is the loneliest number?

[Galadriel55]

Can someone explain?...

What on earth does 1 have to do with...anything?

[jallanite]

Why is 1 the loneliest number?

It’s like the song says:One is one and all alone,
And ever more shall be so.

[Mithadan]

I did not have time to make my post earlier, and did not feel like searching for this thread again. So I left myself a place holder. ;)

I am completing a re-read of LoTR, my first in 4 years. This is unlike me, as I read the books at least once a year when I was younger. At any rate, I came across something that immediately reminded me of this thread and some posts that I made here long ago. In short, and in the words of my profession, I write to "confess error".

Read this thread from the first post. It is an example of why this board is both fun as well as intellectually challenging. It begins with an apparently unanswerable question. What happened to Elladan and Elrohir? The thread travels through possible answers to the specific question, speculation upon the nature of the half-elven generally and the children of Elrond specifically, and even touches upon the issue of canon; what is most reliable as a source of information in Tolkien's work.

There is a great debate about "canon" somewhere on this board. The general consensus was that works published during Tolkien's lifetime were the most reliable (with debate as to LoTR versus The Hobbit versus the "lesser works" such as Tom Bombadil). Everything published posthumously is of somewhat uncertain reliability with varying opinions regarding The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and the multiple and varying versions of materials found in HoME.

To start getting to the point, I am currently reading the Appendices to LoTR; an often overlooked source of information and enjoyment. For those of you who don't know this, if I recall correctly, the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of Return of the King. JRRT had gone overboard and created an altogether too long and comprehensive work that would have required a fourth volume of LoTR to publish the Appendices in their entirety. He had to edit it down drastically. The pieces he cut are found in HoME 12. These excerpts are very well written, were prepared with the intention that they be published, and to return to the issue of canonicity, probably are more reliable than any version of the Silmarillion.

Anyway, in the published appendices, which deserve even greater deference than the unpublished excerpts found in Peoples of Middle Earth, there is the following refrence to the children of Elrond which appears to have been overlooked in this thread.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth."

OK. I was wrong when I argued that the initial choice of Elrond bound his children and that the "Choice of Luthien" given to Arwen somehow arose after she married Aragorn. This quote also raises the question of whether Elladan and Elrohir made their choice merely by not accompanying Elrond.

The above quote does not resolve potential inconsistencies debated above. But as part of his work published during Tolkien's lifetime, it deserves considerable deference, equal to that accorded to LoTR and more than Letters, The Silmarillion or HoME... Or is it?

[Inziladun]

I did not have time to make my post earlier, and did not feel like searching for this thread again. So I left myself a place holder. ;)

Aww. I wanted to see more head-scratching over it. :D

OK. I was wrong when I argued that the initial choice of Elrond bound his children and that the "Choice of Luthien" given to Arwen somehow arose after she married Aragorn. This quote also raises the question of whether Elladan and Elrohir made their choice merely by not accompanying Elrond.

The above quote does not resolve potential inconsistencies debated above. But as part of his work published during Tolkien's lifetime, it deserves considerable deference, equal to that accorded to LoTR and more than Letters, The Silmarillion or HoME... Or is it?

Personally, I think that quote has the right of it. Or should. For the sake of fairness, if nothing else. Why should Arwen be made to make her irrevocable choice before her daddy left, when her brothers get some indefinite period to think things over? The words of Tolkien in Letters # 153, here:

The end of [Elrond's] sons...is not told. They delay their choice and remain for a while.

were from a draft letter written in 1954. I like to think the "delay" was perhaps only meant in the sense that the brothers didn't choose when Arwen did, but still decided before Elrond left. If that was indeed the case, then both apparently picked picked mortality.
There's still plenty of room for debate, granted, but it still just doesn't seem right that the standards would be seemingly different among Elrond's children.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

From Letter No. 151

* It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo’s : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

The impression I get is that here as with so many other matters around the edges Tolkien never really made up his mind, and even his 'definitive' statements may conceal complexity when expressed elliptically or briefly. Suffice it to say that Elrond's children got to make the Choice at some point, but it's unclear when.

[Inziladun]

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

That's from Appendix B.

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn...went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.

It doesn't say that the choice had been made one way or the other, but isn't it still possible they had chosen, and had decided on mortality?

[Alfirin]

From Letter No. 151

* It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo’s : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

The impression I get is that here as with so many other matters around the edges Tolkien never really made up his mind, and even his 'definitive' statements may conceal complexity when expressed elliptically or briefly. Suffice it to say that Elrond's children got to make the Choice at some point, but it's unclear when.

That letter given even more to my question (in another thread) about just how Gimli gets the right to go sail west (or for that matter Sam if the family rumors are true) At that point there is NO one who could give that sort of authrority still in ME (unless you believe that Radagast, even though he failed and is not going back himself, still has, as an emmisary of the Valar, enough authority to give others that permission. Not likely).
And another question that arises, how much of Elronds bloodline to you have to be to keep the choice. Elrond himself chooses to stay immortal, and his children all get to keep the choice, so obviously the choice he made did not effect his children (i.e. he chose immortality, so they were stuck with it). But if that was the case, why was the choice not given to Elros's children. The moment Elros chooses a mortal life as Tar-Minyutar, it seems that his choice applies not only to him, but his decendents (i.e. we never hear of any of his sons being informed that they could choose to be immortal). Granted it may have something to do with bloodlines (Elronds kids are 3/4 elf while Elros's are only 1/4) or Elros's sons may have considered living a mortal life as Kings of Numenor as preferable to an immortal one as a mere elf noble, but it does seem a little unfair to them (especially if Elros was never told his choice would so affect them, which I don't think he was).

[Mithalwen]

For the sons of Elrond, the comment "stayed a while" could equally imply that they then left. There may have been a grace period, some sort of mopping up operation perhaps. Arwen of course had made her choice prior to Elrond's departure and having thrown her lot in with Aragorn she had made her choice for ever - else Elrond might have remained the trivial in Elven terms span until Aragorn died.

As for the children of Elros not being given the choice, well while they of course had majority mortal blood and married mortals, I think it was more of a case of the Gift of Iluvatar being too precious to be denied anyone who was remotely entitled to it.

[Alfirin]

As for the children of Elros not being given the choice, well while they of course had majority mortal blood and married mortals, I think it was more of a case of the Gift of Iluvatar being too precious to be denied anyone who was remotely entitled to it.

Well, if the gift is regarded so precios, then it's a little odd that Elrond and his progeny get the choice in the first place; seems to me that under that logic, the true reward would be to make both brothers and all of their spawn mortal, whether they wanted to be or not. I don't see that giving them the choice denies them the gift; it just gives them the option of not accepting it if they don't want to.
To me, it almost seems as if they are implying that choosing mortality is always the "right" choice, and immortality, always the "wrong". Make the "wrong" and you descendent's are given another chance to make the "right" one. On the other hand, make the "right" one, and you children are freed from having to make the decsion themselves; your choice already saved them. There may be a strain of Tolkein's Catholicism in this, i.e. the concept that death is not only a blessing, but the greatest blessing of all, and the sooner it happens, the greater that blessing is. Conversely, immortality on this earth is actually a curse, since living forever denies you your heavenly rewards forever (i.e. the root of the legend of the Wandering Jew).

[Mithalwen]

I think it is linked to his Catholicism but I don't follow how you can say that enforcing the choice which is no choice is the same as offering the choice to those who have majority immortal blood. Free will is an important concept in Catholicism after all. I think it is a result of us as mortals envying immortality while the Valar who offered the choice are conscious of the burden of immortality.

[jallanite]

For those of you who don't know this, if I recall correctly, the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of Return of the King.

The Appendices appeared in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings and in the Ace paperback edition, though not as much material as Tolkien originally wished to include. These are the same Appendices that appear again in the second edition with only a very small number of modifications and some additions, and these are the Appendices that still appear with a few corrections.

It is untrue to say that the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of The Return of the King.

It is true that some of the material originally planned for the Appendices only appears in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12). But this material is at least of dubious canonicity.

See Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), page 234, which assigns the marriage of Elrond to Celebrían to the year 2300 of the Third Age and later remarks:

The children [Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, the offspring of Elrond] were three parts of the Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the Elves, so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

This seems to slightly expand on the account given in Appendix B, and we are told soon afterwards on the following page in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) that Elladan and Elrohir were born in 2349 of the Third Age and that Arwen was born in the same year.

But in Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings instead Elrond marries Celebrían in the year 109 of the Third Age, Elladan and Elrohir are born in 130, and Arwen is born in 241. This is a problem with Mithadan’s belief that the extra material in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) should be accepted on a level with the material published in Tolkien’s lifetime under his control, often this material does not agree with the material published in Tolkien’s lifetime under his control.

On page 257 of Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) occurs in an earlier draft version of Appendix A (emphasis mine):
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they wedded with one of Mankind, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
This restatement of what would make the children of Elrond mortal is restated in the published Appendix A (emphasis mine):
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
Apparently in his first writing of this passage Tolkien was not particularly thinking of Elladan and Elrohir and only later, when rewriting it, does he make the choice depend on whether the children of Elrond choose to depart with their father.

The difficulty is that this apparently final decision of Tolkien that the immortality of Elladan and Elrohir depends on whether or not they depart with their father is undercut by Tolkien’s definite statement in letter 153 of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:
The end of his [Elrond’s] sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice and remain for a while.
That almost all of this information comes from supposed notesin the Appendices creates the further difficulty that Tolkien at some point, I can’t find where at the moment, expressed the idea that he was no longer much bothered by supposed discrepancies within the Appendices because the most unrealistic thing in his Appendices compared to comparable real-world chronicles from the real world is that the real-world chronicles contain more discrepancies and inconsistencies than his Appendices.

[sneha]

I believe the choice cannot be take back. She chose to be a mortal and now she had to abide by it. As for Elladan and Elrohir I hope they went back to Valinor else it would be tragic for Elrond to lose all three of his children. I can understand their desire to delay the choice. Their sister and foster brother were in Arda plus it was the land of their birth. Just like Celeborn who wasn't weary of middle earth yet. Even Tharanduil's people were in Arda for some time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's perhaps worth observing that Tolkien was in the habit of expressing himself, for brevity, in an elliptical form which appeared more definitive on the surface than his actual intent; this is especially true of his frequernt use of 'rhetorical hyperbole' ias in "fairest," "greatest," "Eldest" etc. Given that this is Tolkien, again writing in compressed form (and the appendices as published were decidely 'comprerssed' from his point of view!), "depart with him [Elrond]" doesn't I think necessarily mean that they had to get on the same boat. Would it "count" if they sailed on another ship in the same flotilla? One that weighed anchor a day later? A week? And if that, then why not within the same 'yen' (144 solar years)? In the Elvish view of time, that's practically the next day.

(Incidentally my own inclination, given the Twins' fierce attachment to their mother, is that they did sail West to be with her again).

[Galin]

Very good points WCH, and I've always maintained that this was open to the interpretation you are suggesting.

Still, in Appendix A [Tale of Aragorn and Arwen] Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

But that all said, it could go either way, yes.

When Tolkien wrote that the end of the sons of Elrond is not told [the letter] he seems to have meant [at the time] that the reader isn't even going to know if they stayed or sailed with Elrond. It is only much later , in the second edition of the 1960s, that he 'told' this much: that they remained when Elrond sailed.

However it seem to be the case that JRRT [I]intended to tell that much in 1955 too:

'For I shall be surprised if the King doesn't bid us to his great house by Lake Evendim. And there will be Elladan and Elrohir too, who still live at Rivendell -- and with them will be Elves.'

The Epilogue, Sauron Defeated

So there goes my earlier theory that Tolkien, only years after this letter was written [and thus possibly forgotten], had decided to at least let the reader know they had remained after Elrond sailed.

[Inziladun]

Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

The ambiguity is certainly there. I consider that the Shire Records could simply be misinformation, as we're left to wonder how the hobbit-author came to that conclusion. Did he go to Rivendell himself and speak with Elladan and Elrohir?

In any case, as is noted the departure of Elrond would seem to indeed be a monumental event in the half-elven history. Arwen was forced to choose then, and not only because of her intended mortal husband. The indication is that had she not wedded Aragorn she would have gone with her father. Did she want that? Was Elrond not giving her a choice in the matter, unless she chose mortality to be with Aragorn? Surely that was not it. If so, old Elessar might have kept it in the back of his mind that his wife could have had ulterior motives for marrying him, quite apart from Lúthien-like love. Why could she not delay her choice, if her brothers could?

I also would wonder just how long is enough time to choose, for the brethren. The Third Age ending, and the Dominion of Men beginning would seem an optimal time to make the decision. Just what else would they have been waiting for? :rolleyes:

[Alfirin]

Another point to consider would be Eldarion, or more accurately, Aragorn's heir. As you pointed out, there really is no reason why Arwen HAS to renounce her immortality in order to marry Aragorn by any sort of law. Elves marrying mortal men is incredibly rare, but it's not exactly uncheard of (especially in Arwen's own family) So why is it so imperative for Arwen to be mortal to marry him. I think the matter of the heir is at least part. Arwen presumably knows Aragron wants kids (or more accurately, that one of the fundamental needs of any king is to have an heir) Elves, we know tend to have kids pretty late in life (even by thier extended standards) It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live (in other words the difference between being an elf and being a human may be deeper than "one is immortal, one isn't). And come to think of it, if Arwen COULD have kids with Aragorn as an elf, what does that leave those kids? We know that mortal Arwen and mortal Aragorn resulted in mortal Eldarion. If Arwen had still been elf, where would that have left him. Another person with the choice, except NOW the choice is between immortality and rule of the West. We've already seen what the craving for immortality did to the Men of the Numenorian line, imagine what might happen if one of them GOT it; a king of Gondor/Arnor who knew he could basically rule FOREVER. That's probably more tempatation than any human mind can stand without going mad (He'd probably basically turn into a Ringwraith without ring.)

[Belegorn]

It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live

I think she could have kids at her age. It is said in Morgoth's Ring, "their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life... whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding." [212] Since Elves are said to marry even as early as their 50th year and in the above quote it's said that soon after marriage they had kids I think Arwen was clearly old enough to have children. I think it was probably the right time for her to have kids because Elves tended to have kids in times of relative peace although in her case that came when she was human.

[Belegorn]

I would think the trouble with an immortal king of Gondor would not be for the king's own cravings for immortality as he already is immortal, but his mortal descendants who can never claim the throne and die as their ancestor who was able to choose an immortal life cannot share that choice with them. However, I'm not sure he would be fit to rule the Men of Gondor because he would no longer be a Man. So maybe if one of his other siblings choice mortality they would be that ruler and not himself. Or the reign would fall to one of the Dunedain close to the king's house.

[Alfirin]

Well, I was sort of assuming that a king who knew from birth he was immortal might not consider HAVING kids or (as we are talking about a world where one must assume birth control is primitve at best) might actually go so far as making sure no kids he had survived long enough to desire the throne.
Yes, that is fine so long as it is an either or choice (you can be immortal and live an elf's life, or you can be mortal and king. The problem, as I was trying to point out, is what happens when the heir doesn't see any reason he can't have BOTH, to rule Gondor eternally. Yes, as an immortal he would no longer be a man and no longer fit to rule Gondro, but the trick is how the hell you get him to stop, or keep him from the throne. Utimately, it might come down to someone actually having to KILL the king (elves can be slain, so presumably, half elves can as well.)
The danger I was trying to refer to is more a mental one than a pysical one, the human brain just isn't equipped to handling living forever, it would crack. Also having the same person ruling forever might result in total stasis for the world, as the king is likey to get a little "set in his ways" over time. I admit that, in the Tolkien verse, that might not be seen as a bad thing (since the general tone is that thing only get worse over time,the Past is always better than the present or future, and the mark of a "good future" is one that strives to return to the ways of before. But from a modern POV, this sounds pretty horrible.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the Aragorn-Arwen marriage wasn't quite like that of Earendil and Elwing: Aragorn was all Man (OK, there was an infinitesimal drop of Elvish blood); whereas Earendil was literally a half-Elf and Elwing roughly so (5/8 Elf). Elrond and Elros therefore were of mixed parentage on both sides, and it wasn't a case of 'choosing' or 'being' or 'having to be' like one or the other parent.

Moreover, the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen re-united the long-sundered branches of the Half-Elven; there was a closure there, a repair of a long-standing disruption of the 'natural order'- and, according to Tolkienian historiography, one which had existed *precisely* to provide a renewed Elvish and angelic strain in the Kings of Men in the new Age of Men. (I suppose it's worth noting that Aragorn was the only living descendant of Elros, it's not like there were other human Children of Luthien knocking around Middle-earth---unlike, say, the new Targaryens that pop up from behind every rock in Westeros......).


Of course, it would help if we could answer the very vexed question of to which race Dior belonged.......

[Belegorn]

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.

[cellurdur]

Dior would probably be granted that same choice as the children of Elrond since they are all of the same line, just as his child [Elrond's mother Elwing] was given the choice. However, he was king of the Elves. Would his situation be like other children of Elves and mortals? In other words, how did they age, how were they different from Men, and from Elves, how the same? I would assume something like Galador. However, he was born after Lúthien became mortal. Even still, Elves flocked to him as Lord of Doriath. Or maybe he was more like to the sons of Elrond than to the mortal Lord of Dol Amroth. I would assume Dior would be included among the half-Elven since Elrond and Elros, as well as Elwing were referred to as such.

I would imagine that Dior was given a choice as well. The reason being that no definitive ruling had been made about the nature of the Half-elven. When Earendil reaches Valinor both Ulmo and Mandos question whether he is an elf or man. This implies that no ruling had yet been made on the nature of Dior and his sons. I like to think and imagine the Valar be fair would give Dior a choice, but we have no way of knowing.

As for his characteristics I think we can be sure that Dior was just like the other Half-elven. He even declares himself the first of their kind.


On the case of Elrond's sons, I believe it likely that they eventually sailed to the West. To even want to change ones fate usually took something momentous. Luthien fell in love, Tuor fell in love, Arwen fell in love and Elros was to rule Numenor. Elladan and Elrohir had been living as elves for 3000 years. It does not strike me as likely they would switch without a great change in their lives. We are told they delayed the decision and think it's likely they helped sort out the Northern kingdom and left after things had been settled.

[Inziladun]

I would imagine that Dior was given a choice as well. The reason being that no definitive ruling had been made about the nature of the Half-elven. When Earendil reaches Valinor both Ulmo and Mandos question whether he is an elf or man. This implies that no ruling had yet been made on the nature of Dior and his sons. I like to think and imagine the Valar be fair would give Dior a choice, but we have no way of knowing.

Since Dior was slain in Middle-earth, his spirit would have come to Mandos, I believe. Since the Valar act in Eärendil's case as if the question of the kindred of the half-elven hadn't occurred to them, I would think Dior was counted among the Elves by default, and he also had a greater portion of the Maia from his grandmother, which might bolster that.

[Puddleglum]

... I would think Dior was counted among the Elves by default, and he also had a greater portion of the Maia from his grandmother, which might bolster that.

Maybe. But consider also that, by the time Dior was conceived and born, Luthien had already chosen to become mortal (so that her fea could leave Ea entirely). Beren was already Atani.

Seems to me just as likely that Dior, being born to two mortals (i.e. to two who already mortal), would himself, therefore, have been mortal. That is, it's the state of your parents when you are born, not how they were when THEY were born.

Now *HIS* sons, Elured & Elurin - - - that would make THEM true half-elves (born to an elf "Nimloth" and Dior, a mortal - in this thinking). And both of *THEM* died before the voyage of Earendil & Elwing - so the question still remains.

Did *THEIR* Fea, coming to Mandos, have the chief characteristic of Mortals - the "seeking elsewither", the desire to leave Ea? Or would their Fea have hung around in Mandos waiting for a reolution of which we are never told?

[cellurdur]

Maybe. But consider also that, by the time Dior was conceived and born, Luthien had already chosen to become mortal (so that her fea could leave Ea entirely). Beren was already Atani.

Seems to me just as likely that Dior, being born to two mortals (i.e. to two who already mortal), would himself, therefore, have been mortal. That is, it's the state of your parents when you are born, not how they were when THEY were born.

Now *HIS* sons, Elured & Elurin - - - that would make THEM true half-elves (born to an elf "Nimloth" and Dior, a mortal - in this thinking). And both of *THEM* died before the voyage of Earendil & Elwing - so the question still remains.

Did *THEIR* Fea, coming to Mandos, have the chief characteristic of Mortals - the "seeking elsewither", the desire to leave Ea? Or would their Fea have hung around in Mandos waiting for a reolution of which we are never told?

Whether Dior was immortal or not there can be no doubt he was one of the Half-elven.

What makes me think that the issue had yet to be decided is that if Dior and his sons had passed beyond Arda or stayed in Mandos then the Valar would have known precisely how to deal with Earendil. It is also possible that up until that time they were dealing with the problem on a case by case basis.

I just remembered that there is further evidence that Elladan and Elrohir left for Valinor. Arwen and Eldarion are mentioned as the heirs to all the elvish lands. Elrond's sons being older would have a greater claim to these Elvish lands if they had stayed in ME. Since they were passed to Arwen it implies they left with the rest of the Elves.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.


Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

[Inziladun]

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

[Ivriniel]

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North. I suspect they took wives who were of the Dunedain and fortified the longevity of the Numenereans in Exile in the Fourth Age.

Dior, as I remember, was also not someone who had the life of the Eldar. Luthien chose a mortal life, which is a slight variation on the way the mythology puts the Choice of the Peredhil (Half Elven). Dior being Luthien's and Beren's son cannot claim an immortal life in that context. However, I also recall that Luthien's end was prior to the War of Wrath at the end of the first age. The Choice of the Peredhil was put together by the Valar, formerly, after Earendil in Vingilot made it into the Uttermost West and pleaded with the Valar to render aid. Earendil's plea was successful, but something else came of it, which was his immortality, which to that point, had no precedent (again, Luthien perished, having relinquished her heritage, somehow). I also seem to remember that Earendil was actually somewhat reluctant to take on the Life of the Eldar, but did so for Elwing's sake and by her plea to her husband. He certainly has a very boring life, I would say, rising day after day, in Vingilot, as the Evenstar, and as he must until the fulfilment of the Second Prophesy when Melkor returns through the Doors of Night. I'm not sure I would want to live that way!

Cheers
Ivriniel

[Galin]

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North.

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument ;)

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though :D

[cellurdur]

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument ;)

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though :D
The problem I have with the twins remaining is that ever time an Elf/Halfelven/Man has changed their fate it has been for a great and high destiny. It is not something, which happens on a whim. I know that technically the children of Elrond were not changing their fate, but they had lived a long time with the life of the Eldar.

I don't see the Sons of Elrond changing the state they had been living unless it was for a great and history changing event.

[Ivriniel]

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here (http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/documents/articles/Aragorn%20and%20Arwen.pdf)

This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.

[Ivriniel]

@Celludur

That's an interesting take to put it as about 'changing fates/destinies'. I see where you're going.

@all

We only actually have one union of Elves and Men--after--The Choice of the Peredhil was formalised at that ring of meeting place thing in Valinor (it's got a particular name, and that was where Earendil pleaded to the Valar, while Elwing sat in the getaway car, waiting for hubby to return--it's a beautiful story though--Elwing throwing herself into the seas and Ulmo bearing her up and transforming her into a swan as she flew in the night with the Silmaril back to Earendil, who caught her, and she awoke, in the morning herself again). The one union is Aragorn and Arwen.

What we also never (well, not quite) hear about, is the reference to is the union of Elves and Men in Imrahil's line. There was, presumably, the 'first' half elven at some point way back when. Recall Finduilas? All that stuff about her, oceans and tossing herself into the water, or becoming lost. I've always wondered about this union, and how it escaped attention, and wondered whether those Peredhil (half elves) ever had The Choice of the Peredhil. Somewhere I read that there were only ever 'three unions of Elves and Men'--Tuor/Idril--though Earendil wedded Elwing who was Dior's kid; Beren/Luthien, and Aragorn/Arwen, which is not really reconcilable with what we know of Imrahil's people and Dol Amroth (even the name of the region recognises the Elvish heritage, where Amroth came from the then Lorien, before Galadriel and Celeborn took over leadership of the realm).

Also, we know that Imrahil son of Adrahil II was born in 2955 TA, and Denethor II married Imrahil's sister, Finduilas (a latter-named Finduilas; also my avatar is another sister of Imrahil), and so Imrahil is Boromir's and Faramir's uncle. This implies there is Elvish blood in that line, which is news to me (I just read this) but we did know Faramir was of particularly 'fair' bearing.

I believe this is not quite true.

[Belegorn]

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

[Ivriniel]

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

Trippy hey :)

[Belegorn]

What we also never (well, not quite) hear about, is the reference to is the union of Elves and Men in Imrahil's line. There was, presumably, the 'first' half elven at some point way back when. Recall Finduilas? All that stuff about her, oceans and tossing herself into the water, or becoming lost. I've always wondered about this union, and how it escaped attention, and wondered whether those Peredhil (half elves) ever had The Choice of the Peredhil.

Apparently they did not. In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]. In letter 153 Tolkien says, "the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share."

[cellurdur]

The Steward's House would have some part in the Elvish strain anyway as they were related to the Kings of Gondor. They were of Royal descent.

This was from a disregarded draft. At the time they were chosen as stewards, they may not have had the royal connection. 1000 years ruling over Gondor and having married into the Prince's of Dol Amroth at least once then they it's very unlikely they were descendants of Anarion.

The choice to choose what kindred was a special gift given to Earendil and his family due to their sacrifice for ME.

I personally think there is some leeway about what happened to Halfelven before the decision, but once the judgment of Mandos is made all of the Halfelven are mortal.

[Ivriniel]

This was from a disregarded draft. At the time they were chosen as stewards, they may not have had the royal connection. 1000 years ruling over Gondor and having married into the Prince's of Dol Amroth at least once then they it's very unlikely they were descendants of Anarion.

The choice to choose what kindred was a special gift given to Earendil and his family due to their sacrifice for ME.

I personally think there is some leeway about what happened to Halfelven before the decision, but once the judgment of Mandos is made all of the Halfelven are mortal.

Was or was not Denethor II the uncle of Imrahil, by marriage? Was Finduilas Denethor II's wife or not? Tolkien online materials state she was. This union, if supported in materials available, does imply Faramir has some Elvish blood. Imrahil does as is noted, clearly, and we do know Imrahil has *two* sisters--I (Ivriniel) am one of them :) and Finduilas is the second.

[Ivriniel]

Apparently they did not. In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]. In letter 153 Tolkien says, "the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share."

Interesting. His comment in Letters really does jell with what we know of Arwen's fate, and the idea of deferred choice makes sense.

On Dior, I may have made a mistake in my writings, upstream. He married Nimloth (this name is so confusing in the mythology. This was a Nimloth of Doriath, I think, and Elwing's brothers were Elurid and Elurin, who were killed in the Sack of Doriath). I'm not clear that Dior was Mortal, but always thought he must have been because Luthien relinquished her immortality for Beren.

In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]

Who are you talking about here?

[cellurdur]

Was or was not Denethor II the uncle of Imrahil, by marriage? Was Finduilas Denethor II's wife or not? Tolkien online materials state she was. This union, if supported in materials available, does imply Faramir has some Elvish blood. Imrahil does as is noted, clearly, and we do know Imrahil has *two* sisters--I (Ivreniel) am one of them :) and Finduilas is the second.

Denethor and Imrahil were brothers-in-law.

I was not arguing about Faramir's elvish blood from Finduilas, but whether they are descendants of Anarion from a female line.

The House of Stewards even after ruling Gondor for a thousand years were behind the Prince's of Dol Amroth and at least one other family and probably more. So at the time they were raised to Stewards they may not have yet intermarried with the royal family.

Since you like Ivriniel and the Dol Amroth's so much, you may know it or not, but Eomer and Eowyn were descendants of the Princes too.

[Ivriniel]

This was from a disregarded draft. At the time they were chosen as stewards, they may not have had the royal connection.

The Stewarship, as we know, was incepted after Earnil got dun in when he took the challenge put to him by the Nazgul of Minas Morgal (which we know was the Witch King). I would have thought that any claim to Anarion would have been thoroughly looked at when Earnil vanished. Dol Amroth's legacy was to Amroth of Lorien and Finduilas. I've never heard of a reference to any marriage of this line with that of Elendil.

I personally think there is some leeway about what happened to Halfelven before the decision, but once the judgment of Mandos is made all of the Halfelven are mortal.

Do you mean this to read after the Choice of the Peredhil was Gifted to the children of the union of Elves and Men, and to their children? To decide which kindred to belong to.

There was one 'one way mirror' concept in the Choice of the Peredhil. A Half Elf who chose the Life of the Eldar could have children, even born of an Elf, who could become immortal. But, the converse was not true. Once a Half-Elf chooses a mortal life, their children cannot choose the life of the Elven. So, Although Aragorn's and Arwen's children, for example, bear almost as much Elven blood as Elrond, there is no choice allowed to them.

Even had one of their children married an Elf (full blooded) nothing is stated in the mythology about what happens to the Elf by way of lifespan. The only precedent is Luthien, who did die, but that occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was incepted when Earendil made his way to Valinor.

[cellurdur]

The Stewarship, as we know, was incepted after Earnil got dun in when he took the challenge put to him by the Nazgul of Minas Morgal (which we know was the Witch King). I would have thought that any claim to Anarion would have been thoroughly looked at when Earnil vanished. Dol Amroth's legacy was to Amroth of Lorien and Finduilas. I've never heard of a reference to any marriage of this line with that of Elendil.
As the Steward announces, the throne of Gondor was passed strictly to the SONS of Anarion. They followed Salic succession, so anyone descendant through the female line would not be eligible for the kingship.

The Prince of Dol Amroth was the second highest ranking nobile in Gondor. Daughters of the royal family were very likely to marry into that line at some point meaning that the Princes of Dol Amroth would be descendants of Anarion.

Do you mean this to read after the Choice of the Peredhil was Gifted to the children of the union of Elves and Men, and to their children? To decide which kindred to belong to.
No I mean that all Peredhil were mortal from this point onwards. The only exceptions are to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing, because of the great sacrifice they made.

There was one 'one way mirror' concept in the Choice of the Peredhil. A Half Elf who chose the Life of the Eldar could have children, even born of an Elf, who could become immortal. But, the converse was not true. Once a Half-Elf chooses a mortal life, their children cannot choose the life of the Elven. So, Although Aragorn's and Arwen's children, for example, bear almost as much Elven blood as Elrond, there is no choice allowed to them.
This is only true of the line of Earendil. All other Halfelves would have no choice and be mortal.

Even had one of their children married an Elf (full blooded) nothing is stated in the mythology about what happens to the Elf by way of lifespan. The only precedent is Luthien, who did die, but that occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was incepted when Earendil made his way to Valinor.
An elf cannot change his or her fate any more than a Man can. Any elf that married a mortal would remain immortal.

Luthien was not a case of a Halfelven being given a choice. It was her making a deal to get Beren back, which meant giving up her immortality. In return Beren was brought back to life and this was a unique exception counter balanced by Tuor being the only mortal to ever become immortal.

[Belegorn]

Who are you talking about here?

Galador, the son of the Elf woman, and his son. Galador lived for 125 years and his son lived for 143 years. So the son, Galador, had a shorter life span than the grandson, Galador's son.

In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings.

Regarding Éowyn, Morwen who was a High Woman from Dol Amroth, married a Rohirrim and her children were Thingol & his sister Théodwyn. Between them were 3 children, Éowyn & her brother Éomer, their mother being Théodwyn, their uncle Théoden and his deceased son Théodred. They were all of Dúnedain descent, kinsmen of the Lords of Dol Amroth. Éomer and Éowyn married back into Gondor's high houses; Éomer with Imrahil's daughter, and his sister Éowyn into the Steward's House with Faramir.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.


And yet I remember clearly that somewhere in the Appendices a commentary (I think by Merry, written during the early period of the 4th Age) states of Cirdan : " .... and some say he dwells there still", meaning the Havens.

[cellurdur]

In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings.

This is from a draft and it does not make the appendix. We can speculate on the reason, but Tolkien did decide to leave it out.

The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all. Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended. Minas Morgul had falled and Osgiliath was a ruin. Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out.

The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will.

As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility.

I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne.

[Belegorn]

This is from a draft and it does not make the appendix.

Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.

The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all.

Correct. They would have children late too. In PoM-E, chapter 7 for example, it is said that Turin l "was wedded twice and had several children ( a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."

Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended.

Yes. In the Kin-Strife itself, "much of the best blood in Gondor was shed" [Appendix A] There is also the infighting within the royal household itself leading to possible heirs abandoning their noble stations.

""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood."

Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out.

Not only wiped out, but many renounced their lineage as well and began to take non-Dúnedain wives.

The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will.

Indeed, nor others "whose claim all would allow".

Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards?

As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility.

Not an argument.

I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne.

I think it is clear there is no claimant because Eärnur, "left no children. No MALE descendant of CLEAR title (OR nearly PURE BLOOD) of Elendil could be discovered." [Heirs of Elendil, ch. 7] In Gondor kingship passed through the male line. So it did not matter if the Steward at that time was the son of the King's sister, he could not take the throne. Gondor's Council told King Arvedui, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil... In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS only" [Appendix A] In the end the crown was given to Eärnil, "the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil ll."

What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.

[Ivriniel]

As the Steward announces, the throne of Gondor was passed strictly to the SONS of Anarion. They followed Salic succession, so anyone descendant through the female line would not be eligible for the kingship.

The Prince of Dol Amroth was the second highest ranking nobile in Gondor. Daughters of the royal family were very likely to marry into that line at some point meaning that the Princes of Dol Amroth would be descendants of Anarion.

No I mean that all Peredhil were mortal from this point onwards. The only exceptions are to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing, because of the great sacrifice they made.

The Choice of the Peredhil went beyond Earendil. It went to Elwing, and to any, I believe. Elwing had a very different lineage. Dior took an Elven wife from Doriath and he was born *after* Luthien was restored to life as a *mortal*. Earendil and Elwing were the first Half Elven to be formerly gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil after a specific decree and intervention from Valinor, that did not circumscribe its bounds to Earendil's lineage. See also, below, my comments about Luthien.

This is only true of the line of Earendil. All other Halfelves would have no choice and be mortal.

No. The Choice of the Peredhil was not bound to a specific lineage, such as Earendil. I suspect that in Dol Amroth, the reason for no immortality, was for choice to belong to the lines of Men.

An elf cannot change his or her fate any more than a Man can. Any elf that married a mortal would remain immortal......Luthien was not a case of a Halfelven being given a choice. It was her making a deal to get Beren back, which meant giving up her immortality. In return Beren was brought back to life and this was a unique exception counter balanced by Tuor being the only mortal to ever become immortal.

Not quite. She died of grief for love of Beren. Mandos brought them both back to life, and granted Luthien mortality. She died, as a mortal, and had two sojourns to the Halls of Mandos. The first was after she died of grief, the second when she died after living with Beren, for a time, in Beleriand. They had Dior, who, I really do not see as someone with the life of the Eldar, given what we know became of Luthien.

In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there.

[Galin]

Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here (http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/documents/articles/Aragorn%20and%20Arwen.pdf)

This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.

Yes. And I agree as I say. I only meant that Elrond doesn't put it as specifically as we do... but of course he needs to speak 'in the tale' and need hardly say something like...

'... and by that I mean they must depart when I go, that is, on the very same ship or in the same year at least...'

Or something :D

Another statement in Appendix A goes something like depart 'with' him, but some seem to interpret that to mean that the Sons can leave after Elrond sailed, but will be 'with' him in a broader sense, and can still chose an Elvish fate [as Tolkien seems to suggest in a letter].

Again I rather think the more natural suggestion is as you [we] have said. And Robert Foster seems to agree [in his guide to Middle-earth] -- and the point there is, he was not letting 'that letter' influence his interpretation of the story.

[cellurdur]

Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.
Yes, because it is in a draft and he chose to leave it out. There is a difference between a note he left about a topic and a draft he discarded with what was published. Or else Strider would still be a Hobbit and the Sons of Elrond would have led the Eorl's charge. In the case of the Sons of Elrond riding to save Gondor, I don't accept it as much as I would love to.



Correct. They would have children late too. In PoM-E, chapter 7 for example, it is said that Turin l "was wedded twice and had several children ( a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."



Yes. In the Kin-Strife itself, "much of the best blood in Gondor was shed" [Appendix A] There is also the infighting within the royal household itself leading to possible heirs abandoning their noble stations.

""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood."

Not only wiped out, but many renounced their lineage as well and began to take non-Dúnedain wives.
Yes this supports the few families being left with Royal Blood.

Indeed, nor others "whose claim all would allow".

Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards?

I mean both. The families with claims, that were not strong enough probably would not accept a rival to rule as Steward. Hence to stop future infighting you choose a family with a weak claim to rule.

Not an argument.
No it is. The families with strong claims to the throne would probably be some of the greatest nobles in the land. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the greatest nobles in Gondor, but there were others still about and greater than the House of Stewards. Considering the Stewards had ruled Gondor for a 1000 years, but STILL were not regarded as greater than these families is something.

I think it is clear there is no claimant because Eärnur, "left no children. No MALE descendant of CLEAR title (OR nearly PURE BLOOD) of Elendil could be discovered." [Heirs of Elendil, ch. 7] In Gondor kingship passed through the male line. So it did not matter if the Steward at that time was the son of the King's sister, he could not take the throne. Gondor's Council told King Arvedui, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil... In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS only" [Appendix A] In the end the crown was given to Eärnil, "the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil ll."

What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.
This is part of the reason, but Arnor puts forward the claim the female line first. This implies that even in the female line, there was not many claimants.

It's in reply to this that Gondor makes the decision to choose Earnil a descendant through the male line over Arvedui's female line claim (amongst other claims).

It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too.

I don't think they were, because
1. They were not one of the great families
2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards.

[cellurdur]

The Choice of the Peredhil went beyond Earendil. It went to Elwing, and to any, I believe. Elwing had a very different lineage. Dior took an Elven wife from Doriath and he was born *after* Luthien was restored to life as a *mortal*. Earendil and Elwing were the first Half Elven to be formerly gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil after a specific decree and intervention from Valinor, that did not circumscribe its bounds to Earendil's lineage. See also, below, my comments about Luthien.

Yes I know, which is why I said it was a special gift to their family ALONE, because of their sacrifice. It was not something, which would be given to any other Peredhil again.

No. The Choice of the Peredhil was not bound to a specific lineage, such as Earendil. I suspect that in Dol Amroth, the reason for no immortality, was for choice to belong to the lines of Men.
Except it was. Only the line of Earendil and Elwing was given a choice, because of their actions. In every other case the descendants would remain mortal like Dol Amroth.

Not quite. She died of grief for love of Beren. Mandos brought them both back to life, and granted Luthien mortality. She died, as a mortal, and had two sojourns to the Halls of Mandos. The first was after she died of grief, the second when she died after living with Beren, for a time, in Beleriand. They had Dior, who, I really do not see as someone with the life of the Eldar, given what we know became of Luthien.

In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there.
Luthien was given the chance to be mortal, but she remained an elf. I am aware she died, but she too because of the beauty of her son was given a choice. She could dwell in bliss in Valinor or return to Middle-Earth with Beren.

She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf.

Dior is a strange case, because there had been no judgement made at the point he died. This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man.

Dior lived most his life with the elves. He ruled Doriath and married an elf, which is not counted amongst the union of Elves and Men. When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice.

[Ivriniel]

Yes I know, which is why I said it was a special gift to their family ALONE, because of their sacrifice. It was not something, which would be given to any other Peredhil again.

Except it was. Only the line of Earendil and Elwing was given a choice, because of their actions. In every other case the descendants would remain mortal like Dol Amroth.

I re-read an excerpt from the Silmarillion, and it actually does state that Mandos made the decree, just to Earnedil's and Elwing's **male** offspring.

There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines.

Luthien was given the chance to be mortal, but she remained an elf. I am aware she died, but she too because of the beauty of her son was given a choice. She could dwell in bliss in Valinor or return to Middle-Earth with Beren.

She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf

Was it her beauty? I'm not sure about that one. Mandos brought her back to life, who was somehow moved, and I would suspect because of her heroism and sacrifice, for love, and because she succeeded, with Beren, in gaining a Silmaril. She was restored as a Mortal, and she and Beren had a rather short life. I believe they lived with the Silmaril nearby for a while, before Dior (who must have been mortal) returned to Doriath to become lord there, after Elu Thingol was slain. Entre Elured, Eluren and Elwing.

This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man.....When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice.

I'm not so sure about Imrahil's blood line. The part-elven offspring were reared by Edain, which makes it very likely they defaulted on any potential immortality because of that.

Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil

Irvriniel

[cellurdur]

I re-read an excerpt from the Silmarillion, and it actually does state that Mandos made the decree, just to Earnedil's and Elwing's **male** offspring.

There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines.



Was it her beauty? I'm not sure about that one. Mandos brought her back to life, who was somehow moved, and I would suspect because of her heroism and sacrifice, for love, and because she succeeded, with Beren, in gaining a Silmaril. She was restored as a Mortal, and she and Beren had a rather short life. I believe they lived with the Silmaril nearby for a while, before Dior (who must have been mortal) returned to Doriath to become lord there, after Elu Thingol was slain. Entre Elured, Eluren and Elwing.



I'm not so sure about Imrahil's blood line. The part-elven offspring were reared by Edain, which makes it very likely they defaulted on any potential immortality because of that.

Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil

Irvriniel
Quickly I meant the beauty of Luthien's SONG and not son.

Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal.

Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153

It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement.

'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'


It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most.

[Ivriniel]

Quickly I meant the beauty of Luthien's SONG and not son.

Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal.

I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.

It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)

Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.

Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity...

Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.


[I][b]so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153

This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)

It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement.

'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'


Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.

It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most.

I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.

[Belegorn]

Yes, because it is in a draft and he chose to leave it out. There is a difference between a note he left about a topic and a draft he discarded with what was published.

True he did leave it out, but I do not think that his doing so necessarily means, at least in this case, that the Stewards were not related to Anárion. In Appendix A when we are given the rulers of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, the Stewards are clearly written with the Kings under Heirs of Anárion, as regards The Southern Line.

I mean both. The families with claims, that were not strong enough probably would not accept a rival to rule as Steward.

Since when did the other nobles start choosing the Stewards who, "took office with the oath, 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.'" [App. A]

Hence to stop future infighting you choose a family with a weak claim to rule.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. What kind of politics is this? Generally if a Prince wanted to secure himself from rivals he'd destroy the families of all would be rivals. It is known that Pelendur the Steward, for instance "played the chief part" [App. A] in the rejection of Arvedui's claim to the crown and the installment of Eärnil with whom the other Dúnedain approved.

They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line.

No it is. The families with strong claims to the throne would probably be some of the greatest nobles in the land. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the greatest nobles in Gondor, but there were others still about and greater than the House of Stewards.

It is said, "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [App. A] and that the Stewards were nearly as pure as the kings. If there were purer houses, and houses of greater nobility, would they not take the station of king? They, like the Stewards, in my opinion were not related to the kings through the male line. Those who may have been descendants through the male line were not pure enough as they, "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A]

Considering the Stewards had ruled Gondor for a 1000 years, but STILL were not regarded as greater than these families is something.

This is because the kings installed them as such and they became hereditary.

This is part of the reason, but Arnor puts forward the claim the female line first. This implies that even in the female line, there was not many claimants.

I do not think so. Let's be honest, there were not many claimants anyway, but again, Pelendur made sure that no one in the female line could take the crown when he rejected Arvedui's claim. His argument was not that there was no one to be found in the female line who could take the throne, it was that in keeping with tradition in Gondor, only in the male line were kings taken. There were certainly people of the male line, but as we no they could not be selected because they were too mixed with lesser men.

It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too.

I think it's possible both were, and possibly all of the noble houses remaining in Gondor with him intermarriage was almost certain to happen.

I don't think they were, because
1. They were not one of the great families
2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards.

I do not get your 2 points here. Explain the 2nd one and also explain the first.

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]

[cellurdur]

True he did leave it out, but I do not think that his doing so necessarily means, at least in this case, that the Stewards were not related to Anárion. In Appendix A when we are given the rulers of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, the Stewards are clearly written with the Kings under Heirs of Anárion, as regards The Southern Line.

This probably has more to do with the Stewards acting with all the powers of the King rather than any ancestry.

Since when did the other nobles start choosing the Stewards who, "took office with the oath, 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.'" [App. A]
The nobles would have had to agree for the Stewards to keep ruling. The Civil Wars in both Arnor and Gondor are proof that the Numenoreans were not always prepared to follow the law.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. What kind of politics is this? Generally if a Prince wanted to secure himself from rivals he'd destroy the families of all would be rivals. It is known that Pelendur the Steward, for instance "played the chief part" [App. A] in the rejection of Arvedui's claim to the crown and the installment of Eärnil with whom the other Dúnedain approved.

They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line.
I think you are confusing the timeline. Earnil's claim was certainly not weak. He was of the House of Anarion. The problem is that Arvedui had a stronger claim.

The political logic is that there are a few Houses with strong claims to the throne like the Prince of Dol Amroth and others. These Houses cannot agree on who should be king, so they agree to let the Steward continue ruling until the matter is resolved. A bit like the crisis Scotland had after the death of the Maid of Norway. They called upon Edward Longshanks to settle the matter.

It is said, "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [App. A] and that the Stewards were nearly as pure as the kings. If there were purer houses, and houses of greater nobility, would they not take the station of king? They, like the Stewards, in my opinion were not related to the kings through the male line. Those who may have been descendants through the male line were not pure enough as they, "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A]
The answer to that is NO. Just, because they were purer, more noble Houses with a better claim does not mean they would have been chosen for the throne. There was enough disagreement that none of the Great Houses like say Dol Amroth could get all the nobility to agree. Consequently it's easier to have a lesser House rule than have another kinslaying.

The reasoning being that the House of Stewards would never be powerful enough to claim the kingship. As things stand now we know that Dol Amroth at least would have seceded and possibly other areas too.

This is because the kings installed them as such and they became hereditary.

The king installed them us such, but it was never intended for them to rule for 1000 years with no king. Gondor Dol Amroth had become virtually independent at this time.

I imagine the other great Houses were content to keep the Stewards, because it was better than a Civil War.

I do not think so. Let's be honest, there were not many claimants anyway, but again, Pelendur made sure that no one in the female line could take the crown when he rejected Arvedui's claim. His argument was not that there was no one to be found in the female line who could take the throne, it was that in keeping with tradition in Gondor, only in the male line were kings taken. There were certainly people of the male line, but as we no they could not be selected because they were too mixed with lesser men.
I never said there were no other claimants, but there were few of them that met the criteria and after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line.

I think it's possible both were, and possibly all of the noble houses remaining in Gondor with him intermarriage was almost certain to happen.
Possible, but by no means a certainty. The Numenoreans would not have illegitimate children and had a very low birth rate. With the obsession some had about blood purity the royal family would possibly keep marrying back into each other. Numenor had a law forbidding the heir to the throne from marrying a non-descendant of Elros. Gondor may not have had a strict law, but I would imagine it would be the custom.

I do not get your 2 points here. Explain the 2nd one and also explain the first.

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]

1. The first point is simple. At the time the House of Hurin were raised to Stewards they were still not one of the Great Families. It's only after Aragorn returns that he raises them above all other nobility except the Prince of Dol Amroth. A House with close ties to Anarion would definitely be one of the Great Houses. Just look at the power the Lords of Andunie had.

2. When a group of powerful Houses are all competing for rule, they sometimes let a less powerful House/person rule as a compromise. Usually, because they don't feel the person will ever be a threat (this is part of the reason Hitler was able to come to power).

Say for Instance the Lord of Dol Amroth and the Lord of Calenardhon (fictional Lord) had the two strongest claims through the female line. Both are powerful and important families. The Prince of Dol Amroth does not agree on the Lord of Calenardhon and vice versa. To keep the peace they decide on letting the Steward keep ruling, safe in the knowledge that his claim and power base is too weak to take the throne.

This is a possible reason for why Denethor was bitter that in Gondor the House of Stewards could never take the throne even after a 1000 years.

[cellurdur]

I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.

It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)

Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.
This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.




This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)
Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.
Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Arwen and the twins were granted 'other doom'. Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.
Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

As for Legolas' comments he could just be mistaking High Numenorean descent with recent elvish ancestry. Legolas is not well traveled to Gondor and knows little of what they were like in their height. Aragorn himself when dressed up looked more like an Elf Lord than any mortal man.

I personally tend to favour Tolkien's other version where the Princes of Dol Amroth were Elendil's kin. They were a House that kept their blood very pure and lived more in tune with the Elvish lifestyle.

This view would help explain their position as the highest nobility in Gondor. If they were close relatives to Elendil, then it would make sense for him to make them princes. This also parallels Aragorn making Faramir a prince.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

[Belegorn]

This probably has more to do with the Stewards acting with all the powers of the King rather than any ancestry.

I think it has to do with both, being both rulers and descendants, just as it holds with all the kings mentioned on the list.

The nobles would have had to agree for the Stewards to keep ruling. The Civil Wars in both Arnor and Gondor are proof that the Numenoreans were not always prepared to follow the law.

If this is your argument then in like manner clearly they would also have to agree among themselves to keep the Kings as Kings. Therefore I think this is a moot point you're making.

In any case, heredity principalities, such as that which the Kings and the Stewards are borne into, are easier to hold onto since the state is accustomed to the family of its rulers. Gondor's Civil War was due to a thing they were unaccustomed to, a King not marrying a Dúnedain woman. Even back in Númenor it started to become a practice among the Kings to marry women of the line of Elros, "to these provisions Tar-Aldarion added that the King's Heir should not wed save in the Line of Elros, and that any who did so should cease to be eligible for the Heirship." [UT; Aldarion and Erendis, p.218]

I think you are confusing the timeline.

Howso? This happened between 1944-1945 of the 3rd Age.

Earnil's claim was certainly not weak. He was of the House of Anarion.

Certainly it was not weak. He was of course descended in the male line from Anarion.

The problem is that Arvedui had a stronger claim.

Not according to the South Kingdom who believed that the "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" [RotK, Appendix A]

In Gondor they were of the belief that the Kings of Arnor, Isildur's heirs no longer had any claim to the throne of Gondor having relinquished the the realm. Arvedui argued that this was not so and that Isildur did not, "intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever."

This was echoed by Denethor many years later, "I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142] Here Denethor makes it clear that even if Aragorn proved he was an heir of the kings, his line was of Isildur and not Anárion. As was stated before, ""The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm." [RotK, Appendix A]

The political logic is that there are a few Houses with strong claims to the throne like the Prince of Dol Amroth and others.

I would say that there were NO Houses with any claim to the throne of Gondor because "In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" and it is clear that those whose heritage could be reckoned through the son could not be King as they had "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A] Thus there was "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;". The rest, the Stewards and other Nobles, were at best only descendants through the female line which gave them no legitimacy.

These Houses cannot agree on who should be king, so they agree to let the Steward continue ruling until the matter is resolved.

They let the Steward continue to rule imo because it was his duty to do so in the absence of any King. Sure they could oust him, just as they could, if they wanted, have ousted any king. If the Stewards were only raised by the nobles and in power by their design he'd have difficulty in maintaining himself because they think of themselves as their equals and the Stewards would not be able to manage them to their liking. Regardless, whether King or Steward, rulers of the Kingdom in both cases, "the Stewards exercised all the power of the kings" [Appendix A] the nobles would either bind themselves to their fortunes or not, giving more thought to themselves.

The answer to that is NO.

Agreed for reasons stated above.

Just, because they were purer, more noble Houses with a better claim does not mean they would have been chosen for the throne.

I say none of them had legitimate claims.

Consequently it's easier to have a lesser House rule than have another kinslaying.

They were just keeping with tradition in this as they did in trying to find an heir. There was none who were legitimate and the Stewards were the legitimate ones "to hold the rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return." [Rotk, Appendix A]

The reasoning being that the House of Stewards would never be powerful enough to claim the kingship.

None of the Houses could.

As things stand now we know that Dol Amroth at least would have seceded and possibly other areas too.

Unlikely seeing as there were no legitimate heirs among any of the noble houses and it seems none were willing to break with tradition.

The king installed them us such, but it was never intended for them to rule for 1000 years with no king.

Certainly that was not the intention, for the Kings to die off, but they did give certain powers to the Stewards which were exercised in accordance with the situation they found themselves in.

I never said there were no other claimants, but there were few of them that met the criteria and after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line.

I didn't say you did. They can't at the same time meet the criteria and also not be of the male line. Again, imo none of them had any real legitimate claim to the throne. I don't care if Dol Amroth for instance was thrice as noble as the Stewards they would still not be able to claim it if like you say, "after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line".

However, unlike you I'm a bit more certain that there actually were those from the male line, but they were mixed and not eligible due to their mingling with lesser women, "no male descendants of the royal line, among those whose blood was little mixed, could be found." [PoM-E, ch. 7]

Possible, but by no means a certainty. The Numenoreans would not have illegitimate children and had a very low birth rate. With the obsession some had about blood purity the royal family would possibly keep marrying back into each other. Numenor had a law forbidding the heir to the throne from marrying a non-descendant of Elros. Gondor may not have had a strict law, but I would imagine it would be the custom.

True, but also the Kings did have daughters and they could marry other not in line for the throne, their children would not be eligible in any case. I think they did marry other nobles in Gondor like the Stewards, etc.

You say "Gondor may not have had a strict law" but you mentioned earlier the Civil War. Do you not realize the Civil War occurred because this rule was broken? So I would say I think they took it seriously as it came to war when it was breached.

A House with close ties to Anarion would definitely be one of the Great Houses. Just look at the power the Lords of Andunie had.

Good point.

2. When a group of powerful Houses are all competing for rule, they sometimes let a less powerful House/person rule as a compromise. Usually, because they don't feel the person will ever be a threat (this is part of the reason Hitler was able to come to power).

I disagree that this was their line of thought.

Say for Instance the Lord of Dol Amroth and the Lord of Calenardhon (fictional Lord) had the two strongest claims through the female line.

This means nothing to me. The Prince of Dol Amroth's mother could have been the sister of Eärnur and I would still tell you such a claim was not legitimate according to Gondor.

"The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS ONLY;" [RotK, Appendix A]

Both are powerful and important families.

Still they would make baseless claims. Just 100 years earlier they had kept up the practice that "In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS ONLY;". I do not think that they would start trying to make the same argument as Arvedui which the lords of Gondor found baseless.

The Prince of Dol Amroth does not agree on the Lord of Calenardhon and vice versa.

I think they would all agree that neither was worthy. Perhaps there would be some who would try to make this claim based on their descent through the female line and possibly take up Arvedui's argument about how in Númenor there were 3 Queens, but in the end none would make a case, "whose claim all would allow;" [App. A]

To keep the peace they decide on letting the Steward keep ruling, safe in the knowledge that his claim and power base is too weak to take the throne.

I say the same holds for all of them, and that the Stewards were doing their duty in any case.

This is a possible reason for why Denethor was bitter that in Gondor the House of Stewards could never take the throne even after a 1000 years.

None other in Gondor could either imo.

[Ivriniel]

This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

I'm arguing that Mandos's decree may not be taken, quite so literally--what I mean by the 'Arwen Anomaly' (I'm using proper noun form, on purpose), is the precedent set that is discordant with Mandos's initial decree in Valinor (though as you point out, with your citation, there was a modification or addendum he made to his initial decree. Nice materials, btw).

Mandos *specifically* says (in the Silmarillion, when Earendil made it to Valinor) that the --sons-- of Earendil and Elwing are to be covered by his Decree.

Arwen--female--yet, she had the Choice of the Peredhil.

I might argue that we should merely interpret Mandos as commenting upon the Peredil he knew would come of the Half Elves he knew *of*, and that it is unclear what is meant for unions of Elves and Men beyond the Line of Earendil.

Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Exactly. I wonder what he would say about Gilmith and Galador, daughter and son of Mithrellas.

Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

See prior.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Only Arwen, really, was granted 'other doom' (access to immortality, given Mandos's Decree for the *sons* of Earendil. Elladan and Elrohir were sons and covered, quite consistently, by Mandos's initial decree (but, here again, another inconsistency in the mythology. Elrond specifically says to Aragorn--Tale of Aragorn and Arwen--that **all** his children needed to depart with him to get immortality. This makes no real sense when looking at what Mandos's decree initially posited. Surely, (theoretically), the sons coulda just said 'see ya in 50 dad--we wanna hang around a bit longer. Galadriel did. So did you. So we wrote to Mandos and said 'I wanna live forever, but dad's boat's goin' too early)

Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

Yes. But provisionally. What we don't know is 'would they have', had Mithrellas not disappeared, and, for example, chucked her kids on a boat at Edhellond, to go into the Uttermost West.

I doubt, highly, that the boat would have been refused access to Valinor, don't you think? My point goes to 'which way the kids go'--I like ma more than pa--daddy Numenorean's a bit of a hard *** and likes too much drink and wants all that human-y stuff. I like ma's lamenting singing. She makes Waybread and I like what the Lady Galadriel said to me in Lorien. Lorien's way cooler for me (said Gilmith) than daddy's sword stuff'.

Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

I really wonder about all that Salic Succession stuff. This is a contravention of the Laws of Succession, modified in Numenor. Somewhat presumptious of any Gondor-ian delegate, to do this. I wonder. I need to look more closely at materials on the Stewardship and Gondor's line of succession before I comment further.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

I wonder about this too. I think Finrod would not be speaking of those of the Eldar or Elves who broke with tradition. I think he was speaking more like a monarch, like Queen Lizzy, England, and all that stuff about 'princes do thy duty and don't marry a commoner'. There must have been some radical elements amongst the Elves, from time to time, surely.

I do like the idea, though, of the females of the Line of Silmarien of Andunie, in Gondor--all the second and subsequent born--Princesses of Gondor, trundling off to marry Imrahil's Elvishy crew. Seems quite likely, as I think you suggested.

I really need to look a little more closely at 'what' exactly, they did after Earnur. I wonder if Tolkien ever commented about Elros's blood being present in Imrahil's line. One would of thought it would have been mentioned, by *someone* in LotR at the Pelenor?

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

Interesting. I'd have to agree with you on this. He was 'fair' enough that Legolas was quite taken by him. Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

:)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.

[cellurdur]

Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.

Why wouldn't he? Denethor expected as much and Imrahil seems like a throw back to the Numenoreans of old too. I think it's likely he had some suspicion this was to be the case. Imrahil was also the greatest noble in Gondor, ahead of even the steward (though the latter had the powers of the King). Thorongil as the Steward's right hand would have had to interact with the family on numerous occasions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.

[cellurdur]

I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.

We are told he was effectively the Steward's right hand in the appendix.

'In much he (Ecthelion II) did he had the aid and the advice of a great captain whom he loved above all.....He was a great leader of men, by land or by the sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.'

He had so much power in Gondor Aragorn was the most beloved man and seen as a rival to Denthor.

'At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor'

Denethor as great as he was and he was very great just could not compare even to Ecthelion with Aragorn.

'yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.'

Thorongil as we have seen counseled in everything including trusting Gandalf over Saruman.

'And in one matter only were their (Aragorn and Denethor) counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.'