Boromir and his search for Rivendell

[The Mouth of Sauron]

In the books (though not the extended versions of the films) we are told that Boromir was unsure as to the location of Rivendell and took many months finding it.

Surely however this lack of knowledge would have been unlikely. Rivendell was used as a staging post by Numenorians during the first overthrow of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Isildur's youngest son stayed there at that time so it seems inconceivable that Rivendell was not known of in Gondor.

Further, the location of Rivendell was known by the Kings of Arnor and that information would it seems to me have certainly been shared with Gondor, then kept in Minas Tirith so that Boromir could have been given the exact location before he set off.

[Kuruharan]

That had been a long time before. Plenty of time to forget all sorts of things.

Probably that knowledge of the past, dimly remembered as it might have been, was the only thing that allowed Boromir to find Rivendell at all.

[CSteefel]

I had not heard that Rivendell was a staging ground. I do recall that Elendil watched for the arrival of Gilgalad from Weathertop, but that was a long way west.

In any case, we seem ample evidence that Gondor had lost track of most of what happened in the North Kingdom. Boromir did not know of the fate of Elendil's sword, or for that matter that his heirs still lived in that area. They also did not know that Isildur had kept the One Ring, and in fact much of what happened on the slopes of Mount Doom where only Isildur and Elendil on the one hand and Gilgalad and Elrond and Cirdan on the other were present, as Elrond clearly states in the Council of Elrond...

[Formendacil]

One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.

Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies.

Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?

Also I'm also pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Gondor kept a small garrison of "Soldiers and Engineers" at Tharbad up until about a hundred years before the War of the Ring.

Tharbad ain't all that far from Rivendell.

[Boromir88]

Aye, I am unsure if this info would have been available in Gondor Rivendell was in a valley and it was well hidden. Elrond established it as a refuge, and I don't think Sauron ever found it's location and I doubt many in Gondor (by this time) would have known.

Both Faramir and Boro went to Denethor about the dream they had to go to Imladris. Denethor was supposedly the wisest loreman in Gondor and it seemed he was only able to give a rough idea of the location. Add to that Boro lost his horse in Tharbad, and you get a long journey. ;)

Edit:
I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?~MoS
Not necessarily, joint maintenance of roads is not always pleasant let me tell you. If you ever wonder why County line roads in the U.S are some of the worst in shape, it's because the two counties always argue about who should do what - or some of the bridges over train tracks, I am always in arguments with train companies over who is responsible. :rolleyes: And I don't want to go into the "communication" back-n-forth if you can even call it that. :mad:

[Kuruharan]

One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.

Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies.

Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.

It is an interesting point of comparison here.

The Egyptians themselves had some very strange notions about their earliest history and (not to get into too much detail here, there is some of this in Herodotus if people are interested in following this up) even their memories and understanding of their recent past could at times be very muddled. And they were one of the people's of antiquity who were most concerned with their history.

I believe it is very difficult to truly understand the vastness of the times that Tolkien's world encompassed, I'm honestly not sure Tolkien himself dealt with it (or maybe rather conveyed it) effectively.

Boro you work in transportation planning too?

[radagastly]

From "The Council of Elrond:
"So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men."

Granted, Gandalf is referring to lore about the ring, but it implies that even lore-masters (like Denethor) have forgotten many things, including what little they knew of the location of Imladris. It was never well known:

From 'The Tale of Years,' appendix B, "The Return of the King":
1695-Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.

1697-Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.

1699-Sauron overruns Eriador.

1700-Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.

1701-Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.

c. 1800-From about this time onward the Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Numenor.

This shows that Rivendell existed only three years of the war before Sauron was defeated, and that Imladris was established as a "refuge," and Gondor/Arnor were only beginning to be established. Numenor was still at the height of it's power. Across the sea, I suspect maps of Middle-Earth (as much as WE all delight in them,) would have been scarce, if they existed at all. Certainly, none of them would have contained a detailed location of Imladris. It was, after all, a "refuge," in a world where Sauron not only still existed, but could still maintain a pleasing, charming form. It's location, especially since it contained one of the Three Rings, would not have been advertised, especially to Numenor, where "Alatar" resided. Elrond would never have taken such a chance.

So, in Minas Tirith, there would have remained VERY little information to start with, and even those who studied such things (not Denethor, surely. He would have prefered accounts of battles and strategies,) would have had very little information to convey to Boromir before he set out. In fact the only information that he seemed to have, comes from Boromir's own quote during the Council of Elrond:
Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.

Actually, the fact that Boromir found Rivendell at all may be a case of intervention from Eru. How else could he have stumbled upon such a place, designed to be hidden, concealed by the Elves, an ancient legend, at best, as far as his people were concerned, and probably disguised from outsiders by Elrond's Ring? The odds of Boromir finding it then were about as good as the odds of you finding it now!

[Gordis]

I agree.

Despite the fact that Isildur himself had dwelt in Rivendell for a time with his sons while the army of the Last Alliance had been gathered there, it looks like neither of them left notes about its exact location. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Men swore to Elrond not to disclose its location afterwards. Secrecy was the main defense of the place, after all.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Gordis:
Despite the fact that Isildur himself had dwelt in Rivendell for a time with his sons while the army of the Last Alliance had been gathered there, it looks like neither of them left notes about its exact location. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Men swore to Elrond not to disclose its location afterwards. Secrecy was the main defense of the place, after all.

Yeah. It would be the equivalent of a modern Macedonian trying to find a Tibetan temple that may or may not even exist, based on information that Alexander the Great may or may not have even transcribed.

[Rumil]

If I remember Boromir turned up apparently 'out of the blue' at the right time at Rivendell. Probably an argument for Eru's noodly appendage playing a part. ;).

However I've wondered if Elrond generally sent some sort of 'confuslement field' type vibe (magic whatever) to keep Rivendell hidden from undesirables, but could switch it to an 'attraction field' when there was a visitor who was welcome. Speculation I know but Saruman ceratinly sent some 'force' that hindered the three hunters and someone commented on how difficult Rivendell was to find (perhaps Gandalf in The Hobbit?)

[Kuruharan]

We have a splendid example of that in Melian and Doriath.

At least as far as deterrance...and she couldn't keep Beren out, but it seems similar.

[Gordis]

I wonder, what road did Boromir take after he lost his horse at Tharbad crossing?

Did he come up Mitheithel to the Last Bridge? Or did he pass through Bree? In either case he seems to have closely followed the Ring-party for the last leg of the journey Last Bridge-Rivendell. He was lucky not to meet any nazgul...

[Mithadan]

'How far is Rivendell' asked Merrry... 'I don't know that the Road has ever been measured in miles beyond the Foresaken Inn, a day's journey east of Bree,' answered Strider. 'Some say it is far, and some say otherwise. It is a strange road, and folk are glad to reach their journey's end, whether the time is long or short. But I know how long it would take me on my own feet, with fair weather and no ill fortune, twelve days from here to the Ford of Bruinen..." A Knife in the Dark.

This is Aragorn speaking on Weathertop; Aragorn the Ranger who knew the country well and lived in Rivendell itself for much of his childhood. And what happens thereafter? After the confrontation at Weathertop, Aragorn leads the hobbits through a backcountry route, avoiding the road and, if not actually getting lost, goes astray ('We have come too far to the north... and we must find some way to turn back southwards again."). Clearly, Rivendell is hidden and difficult to find. There is an implication of some form of concealment through the power of Elrond perhaps in a manner similar to, if not as obvious and overt as, Melian's Girdle. Those who do not know where Imladris lies find it difficult to find it, and even those who have been there may encounter trouble.

To the extent that Elendil or any of his northern army visited Rivendell, many, including Elendil himself, died in the Siege of Mordor and those that survived perished in the disaster at Gladden Fields. It cannot be said that after the War any certain information regarding Rivendell's location would have been communicated to Gondor. As others have mentioned above, the fact that the road north was maintained long before the events in LoTR also does not guarantee that any such information survived the passage of time and it may simply be that no certain data on Rivendell's location ever existed in Gondor. Even it were roughly shown on a map, the difficulties in finding Rivendell that Aragorn refers to still would have delayed Boromir.

Aragorn's discussion of how the road to Rivendell is "strange" is reminiscent of Tolkien's descriptions of the Smith's journeys in Faerie in The Smith of Wootten Major. There the Smith's journeys seem longer or shorter even when he is travelling to the same place (assuming he can find it). When a mortal Man journeys to the Elves, particularly in the later Ages, perhaps he is going to a realm different from the mortal world in ways subtle and less subtle. This may be, in part, why Rivendell was hard to find.

[Bêthberry]

Shangri La, from Lost Horizons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangri-La)

[The Mouth of Sauron]

In the days of the last Kings of Gondor before Aragorn, namely Earnil and Earnur, Gondor sent forces to Cirdan's Havens to fight the Witch King. During that war, Glorfindel actually told the Gondor heir that the Witch King wouldn't be killed by "the hand of man".

Surely during that exchange or in subsequent conversations the location of Rivendell, Glorfindel's home at that time, would have been mentioned ? And these events were only a thousand years or so before the War of the Ring.

And even during Ecthelion's final years as Steward of Gondor Thorongil might have mentioned Elrond and Rivendell to him ?

Gondor's ignorance of Rivendell's location doesn't add up.

[Mithadan]

And these events were only a thousand years or so before the War of the Ring.

"Only?" Let's see, only about a thousand years ago there was this king named Arthur, and Camelot is where?

[Rumil]

Ah, found the quote I was looking for-

The only path was marked with white stones, some of which were small, and others were half covered with moss or heather. Altogether it was a very slow business following the track, even guided by Gandalf, who seemed to know his way about pretty well.

Tea-time had long gone by :eek:

steep zig-zag path into the secret valley

and of course the classic line

'Hmmm! it smells like elves' thought Bilbo:D:D

Followed by much in the way of tra-la-la-lallying.

Note the 'secret valley' - Is it secret? Is it safe?

[CSteefel]

In the days of the last Kings of Gondor before Aragorn, namely Earnil and Earnur, Gondor sent forces to Cirdan's Havens to fight the Witch King. During that war, Glorfindel actually told the Gondor heir that the Witch King wouldn't be killed by "the hand of man".

Surely during that exchange or in subsequent conversations the location of Rivendell, Glorfindel's home at that time, would have been mentioned ? And these events were only a thousand years or so before the War of the Ring.

And even during Ecthelion's final years as Steward of Gondor Thorongil might have mentioned Elrond and Rivendell to him ?

Gondor's ignorance of Rivendell's location doesn't add up.
I doubt that Aragorn would have revealed the location of Rivendell, given that he himself was present in disguise. Otherwise, 1,000 years before in the time of Earnur is a long ways back. Certainly with the failure of the Kings, this kind of information would be unlikely to be well known.

Denethor of course did know of Elrond and Rivendell, just not where they were exactly...

[Boromir88]

Boro you work in transportation planning too?~Kuru
I've been out of the fireworks business for a little while and now working for the Road Engineers. ;)

Gondor's ignorance of Rivendell's location doesn't add up.~MoS
Why not? If characters like Aragorn who had grown up in Rivendell and the area, struggled finding it, imagine someone from a far off country, trying to find a hidden location.

Besides Elrond's power, secrecy was Rivendell's only weapon. It wasn't a fortress, it was in more of a mansion where members of Elrond's house and some other guests lived - it was a hidden refuge in a secret valley. I don't know what you expect anyone in Gondor to know about it's location, and certainly from people (Denethor, Faramir, Boromir...etc) who have never been there, and they have been out of contact with for many hundreds of years.

I am fascinated by the ideas about a possible "Elrond's girdle," and Boromir finding the place due to intervention from Eru, I never thought about that...just knew it was a really hard place for the man to find. :D

[Mnemosyne]

I am fascinated by the ideas about a possible "Elrond's girdle," and Boromir finding the place due to intervention from Eru, I never thought about that...just knew it was a really hard place for the man to find. :D

I've seen some people try to explain the improbability of Boromir's finding Rivendell due to his being picked up by maybe a stray Ranger (who gave him directions) or even the sons of Elrond who led him those last tricky miles. Quite reasonable, especially when you consider how E&E managed to keep Aragorn from Frodo's recovery feast because they had Very Important News to Give Him; but that's also the realm of fan fiction.

[Boromir88]

I've seen some people try to explain the improbability of Boromir's finding Rivendell due to his being picked up by maybe a stray Ranger (who gave him directions) or even the sons of Elrond who led him those last tricky miles. Quite reasonable, especially when you consider how E&E managed to keep Aragorn from Frodo's recovery feast because they had Very Important News to Give Him; but that's also the realm of fan fiction.~Mnemo
That's certainly a possibility too, I would imagine if anyone, it would likely be Elladan and Elrohir. They definitely knew the area well, and before the Fellowship left Rivendell, they scouted ahead to determine some good routes/see if there was any trouble.

Although I am also considering the wording in the Council of Elrond...if I recall correctly, Elrond says something like "Boromir came to us in the early morning hours" or something similar (I don't have a copy of the books available, they have went through so much wear and tear the binding is gone and the pages are probably dissolving and I have been terrible about getting a new one :( ). But just from the memory saying "Boromir came to us" sounds like he just stumbled upon the place, or arrived alone. Of course that doesn't mean a helpful ranger, or the E&E boys didn't give some better directions as he was aimlessly wandering the woods.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Still think it doesn't add up.

If you look at the map, the Fords of Isen are roughly the same distance from Rivendell as they are from Minas Tirith - and nearer Rivendell than say Belfalas.

Surely there were enough travellers proceeding across Middle Earth to foster communication and some knowledge of people and places. For example, Celeborn knew that the bridges at Osgiliath were cast down and the landings held by the Enemy. Eomer knew about the false rumour that Rohan paid a tribute of horses to Mordor. Drarves travelled regularly between the Blue Mountains and the Lonely Mountain (passing close to Rivendell) and must have spoken to Beornings, Woodmen in Mirkwood and others who in turn would have had some contact with Rohan and in turn Gondor.

But the clinching argument for me is this - if Denethor wanted to advise Boromir on the location of Rivendell, why didn't he just use the Palantir ?

[Alfirin]

Still think it doesn't add up.
But the clinching argument for me is this - if Denethor wanted to advise Boromir on the location of Rivendell, why didn't he just use the Palantir ?

I had thoughts along a similar line and the best answers I could come up with were.

1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left. In fact his long abscence, and possibly knowedge of his death (via Faramirs vision and the split horn) may have been what drove Denethor to start using the Palantir in the first place.

2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range. I seem to recall something in the Esaay of the Palantiri in the UT that said that the distance a palantir could see was related to its size, maybe the anor stone was too small to have that range. A clue for this may be in the fact that the two largest stones (Osgiliath's and Amon Sul's) were placed in positions where they could have been used as relay stones (one in Gondor one in Arnor) for messages coming in from the other stones.

3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir. If it didn't then sauron himself could and would have immediately known EXACTLY where Rivendell and Lothlorien were.

4. Comments made by Gandalf in his discussion of the Palantiri make me believe that a great will is needed to use the stone for DIRECTED viewing, without it the stone simply shows random images. Maybe Denethor didn't have that kind of will. In this presumption his later seeing of the Black ships becomes a fluke (or mor likey Sauron using his will in his Palantir to twist Denethor by showing him such images as will maximize his despair and convince him to give up.

Those are the best reasons I can come up with.

[Boromir88]

MoS:

For example, Celeborn knew that the bridges at Osgiliath were cast down and the landings held by the Enemy.
Boromir gave his account at the Council, Celeborn states one of the few people he still remains in contact with is Elrond. Communication between Rivendell and Lorien makes sense.

Communication between Gondor and Rivendell and/or Lorien doesn't. First off, Rohan and Gondor have this major rumor that Lorien is run by a witch and should be avoided (even Faramir believes it.) Secondly, Boromir talks about Gondor's "loneliness" and seemingly the only remaining bastion against Sauron, besides their friends in Rohan. Boromir was being pretty arrogant, because of course other people were opposed to Sauron, but the fact that he states Gondor's only friends now are Rohan, to me suggests, Rohan is the only place Gondor would be in contact with.

You have to remember Denethor was prideful and distrusted anyone who did not fight for Gondor, he was in the mindset it is Gondor vs. Mordor, and isolated Gondor from the rest of its allies, including Rohan (see the Appendix: Stewards).

It's already been established that the location of Rivendell is not a common known thing, or else it would not have been a very effective refuge. I mean Gondor (nor the people of Middle-earth) did not have GPS to plot out their route. If Boromir even looked at a map before he left to get a general sense of direction, "a map" (if Rivendell was even on it!) would not be able to show him recognizable landmarks through woods, or show him how to find a hidden location, in a secret valley, in an area that was completely unfamiliar. Boromir was not a ranger, and the resident ranger even had trouble finding the way to Rivendell.

Alfirin
1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left.
He first used it after his wife died, being depressed and worrying about his "line" as Finduilas died when his boys were still pretty young. However, we aren't told how often he uses it then, he definitely steps up the frequency of use after Boromir leaves, and even more after finding out Boromir is dead.

2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range.
Possible, that I do not know enough about Denethor's palantir to tell you. I do recall though that Denethor's palantir was oriented towards the East, as certain Palantir's could only look towards certain direction.

3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir.
This is possible too, but I would just suggest that determining the general location with a palantir is very hard. These weren't clear or crisp "pictures." Images relied on shadows and lighting, so if someone was trying to look into a room, but there were no lights, the person wouldn't be able to see anything. Also, remember that when Pippin uses the Palantir, and Sauron invades in, Sauron believes Pippin is in Orthanc, because he tells Pippin to give a message to Saruman. The problem is, Pippin is outside, and 100s of miles away from Orthanc by this time. Sauron had no idea that Isengard had been destroyed, nor that the stone had left Isengard and this guy uses the palantir a lot.

4. Comments made by Gandalf in his discussion of the Palantiri make me believe that a great will is needed to use the stone for DIRECTED viewing, without it the stone simply shows random images. Maybe Denethor didn't have that kind of will.
This one would be hard to tell. In UT: The palantir, Tolkien does write that eventually the Stewards to have the authority to use the palantiri. Part of being able to use the palantir, is 1st knowing how to, but 2nd is being the rightful owner. Aragorn, was a rightful owner, hence why he is able to best Sauron (who was not one) through the palantir. Denethor, as a steward, also was a rightful owner, also he was priviledged to top secret records about the palantir that only the Stewards, and their children, had access too - and from the UT we are told that while his father Ecthelion ruled, Denethor rummaged through all the records about the palantir. So, Denethor knew how to use it, and was a rightful owner.

However, you still have to have a significant amount of willpower to contend with Sauron, even though Sauron wasn't a rightful owner. Sauron nearly broke Aragorn, and Aragorn had the authority, plus he was much farther (the distance plays a factor as well, in UT, had Aragorn been closer to Sauron - as Denethor was - he probably would have been bested). Afterall, Sauron is a Maia, and for a mortal to challenge his will, well bad things are going to happen.

It is clear that Sauron was controlling the images Denethor was viewing, when he began doing this, I do not know, but I would imagine it wouldn't be long after he realized Denethor was peeking around. He would of course want to do anything to weaken his strongest enemy, and realizing that the Steward is poking around with the Palantir would be a good opportunity. Sauron could not make the palantir lie and show false images, but he could make it misleading and control what Denethor was seeing - he was only showing Denethor the massive amount of forces Sauron had, and the Corsairs a sailing in, leading Denethor to lose all hope.

Once Denethor lost hope, he thought his only chance was to challenge Sauron through the palantir, the "Lord of Minas Tirith vs. the Lord of Barad-dur" (see Appendix: The Stewards), and that is when he lost his mind.

[Inziladun]

1. Maybe Denethor didn't start using the Palaintir until after Boromir left. In fact his long abscence, and possibly knowedge of his death (via Faramirs vision and the split horn) may have been what drove Denethor to start using the Palantir in the first place.

Gandalf seemed to believe he had been using it before then.

But his wisdom failed; and I fear that as the peril of his realm grew he looked in the Stone and was deceived: far too often, I guess, since Boromir departed.

'Far too often' suggests he had made use of it before, though he had been a bit more careful before Boromir's departure.


2. Rivendell may have been out of the Palantir's range. I seem to recall something in the Esaay of the Palantiri in the UT that said that the distance a palantir could see was related to its size, maybe the anor stone was too small to have that range. A clue for this may be in the fact that the two largest stones (Osgiliath's and Amon Sul's) were placed in positions where they could have been used as relay stones (one in Gondor one in Arnor) for messages coming in from the other stones.

I think the quote from UT stated that the images seen in the minor Stones would be small. It seems the larger ones were best suited for long distance communication, but I wouldn't think the distance between Minas Tirith and Rivendell would have been too far for Denethor to survey, though it probably would have been extremely taxing on his strength.
However, in order to look on Rivendell, wouldn't Denethor have to possess already knowledge of its location or appearance? If not, why couldn't Sauron have used the Ithil Stone to find the Shire?

3. Whatever magic Elrond had that made Rivendell so hard to find may also have prevented it's being scryed by a Palantir. If it didn't then sauron himself could and would have immediately known EXACTLY where Rivendell and Lothlorien were.

That's an interesting idea. The Tale of Years tells us that Rivendell was founded by Elrond in the year 1697 of the Second Age. 3319 was the year of the Downfall of Númenor, and the time at which Elendil and sons arrived in ME, bringing with them the Palantíri. Elrond, I suppose, could have made his refuge 'unplottable' ( to use a Harry Potterism ), but he would not have done so as a conscious defense against the Palantíri, as he likely did not even know of the Stones when he founded Rivendell. If he was aware of them, they were in the hands of the Faithful in Númenor then, so why would he have felt the need to block them?

edit- x'd with Boro

[Bêthberry]

Denethor was supposedly the wisest loreman in Gondor and it seemed he was only able to give a rough idea of the location.

Ah, perhaps the issue is the nature of higher learning in Tolkien. ;)

Saruman also devoted himself to lore and succumbed to the rapacious effects of the knowledge he gained. Deep and extended study drove Denethor farther and farther into a sense of empowerment, with disasterous consequences.

There's a difference between great knowledge and wisdom in Middle-earth, and Rivendell was a place of wisdom. So that understanding terrain and geography and place is less a question of knowing the map and more a matter of having the right mind--that is, one which can approach a more elvish way of thinking.

I wasn't being flippant when I linked to Shangri La and Lost Horizons.

[Kuruharan]

There's a difference between great knowledge and wisdom in Middle-earth, and Rivendell was a place of wisdom. So that understanding terrain and geography and place is less a question of knowing the map and more a matter of having the right mind--that is, one which can approach a more elvish way of thinking.

I wasn't being flippant when I linked to Shangri La and Lost Horizons.

But on the other hand, Boromir who wasn't particularly elvish in his thinking did get there.

[Bêthberry]

But on the other hand, Boromir who wasn't particularly elvish in his thinking did get there.

True enough, for he is like to Isildur. The Numemorians like all Men had their stubborn pride. However, consider the quest which brought him to Rivendell. He came not for war, but to seek counsel and "the unravelling of hard words" of a dream.

Faramir had the dream many times, but Boromir himself also had the prophetic dream. In our haste to castigate him for his pride and arrogance--which I admit I have oft been ready to do--it is well to remember that he too is capable of dreaming dreams that make Middle earth a magical place. Boromir heard the voice fortelling the forging of the sword and the finding of the Ring, which is not a particularly mannish night time activity.

If he was worthy of receiving the dream, he was worthy of finding the hidden realm.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The problem with the Palantir is that you have to know where to look

Try this: my house is in the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA. Now, find it in Google Earth.

[Elmo]

My gosh, you live in hovel ;)

[The Mouth of Sauron]

The problem with the Palantir is that you have to know where to look

Try this: my house is in the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA. Now, find it in Google Earth.

Is that the house with the 9 horsemen peering at it from across the river ?

[Inziladun]

I don't think the Last Homely House or even the valley in which it lay were in sight of the Ford of Bruinen.

(Frodo) knew of nothing that would prevent (the Black Riders) from crossing as easily as he had done; and he felt that it was useless to try to escape over the long uncertain path from the Ford to the edge of Rivendell. FOTR Flight To the Ford (emphasis added)

If Rivendell had been that near and in sight, surely Frodo would have made an effort to ride there on the horse, and why would not Elrond or Gandalf have sent more Elves to assist, or even come themselves?

[Kuruharan]

and why would not Elrond or Gandalf have sent more Elves to assist, or even come themselves?

We don't know exactly what the process of commanding the ford or adding white horses to the flood entailed so it may have been they were required to be elsewhere...but I think you are right that Rivendell wasn't close to the ford.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would point out that when Boromir left MT, months before, there weren't any Black Riders peering over the Ford!

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Come to think of it, once Boromir lost his horse at Tharbad, if he'd followed the road (the Greenway) he'd have arrived at either Sarn Ford or Bree, and from either of those places got a fresh horse and proceeded to Rivendell. Surely he would have bumped into Rangers or travelling Elves to direct him?

[Inziladun]

Come to think of it, once Boromir lost his horse at Tharbad, if he'd followed the road (the Greenway) he'd have arrived at either Sarn Ford or Bree, and from either of those places got a fresh horse and proceeded to Rivendell. Surely he would have bumped into Rangers or travelling Elves to direct him?

He doesn't seem to have made it to Bree, because at Rivendell the sight of Hobbits Frodo and Bilbo surprised him. Bree would have introduced him to "Halflings" already.

Also, I think he only knew that Rivendell was near the western side of the Misty Mountains, north of Moria. Since it was obviously in existence before the founding of Gondor and Arnor, that much at least was probably still known to some there. With that knowledge, there would have been no reason for him to have continued up the old road to Bree, even if he had known about the little town. And on his road in the wilderness between Tharbad and Rivendell, there was very little chance of meeting Elves or Dúnedain.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We don't know exactly what the process of commanding the ford or adding white horses to the flood entailed so it may have been they were required to be elsewhere...but I think you are right that Rivendell wasn't close to the ford.

Which is made clear in The Hobbit, Chapter 3. It also wasn't easy to find.

According to Tolkien's notes it was "28 miles (by road 30)" from the Ford to Rivendell.

[Pervinca Took]

30 miles! I didn't realise it was that far. I suppose Glorfindel must have galloped the rest of the way with Frodo on Asfaloth, then ... a few more hours and he would have been beyond their aid, Gandalf said.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

You don't gallop a horse for thirty miles- at least not a real-world one. Just the mile-long sprint to the ford would have blown him!

G in fact tells Frodo that "Elrond's folk met [Aragorn and Glorfindel], carrying you slowly towards Rivendell."

[Mithalwen]

Bill, I am intrigued as to where the note that says it was thirty miles from. The Ford to Rivendell.? It is only a couple in the Journeys of Frodo so is it from HoME?

[Pervinca Took]

You don't gallop a horse for thirty miles- at least not a real-world one. Just the mile-long sprint to the ford would have blown him!

G in fact tells Frodo that "Elrond's folk met [Aragorn and Glorfindel], carrying you slowly towards Rivendell."

Yes, but they couldn't have got that far before the aid came. If there were still thirty miles to go, the Elves that met them must have met them pretty soon and had fairly efficient transport. I'm not sure what time of day the flight to the Ford happened, but Frodo was brought to Rivendell on the night of that day, I think it says. A thirty-mile canter, perhaps?

I too had always had the impression that it was only a couple of miles or so. However, the Tale of Years says that, on the way back, they leave Rivendell on 5th October and cross the Ford of Bruinen on the 6th.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Bill, I am intrigued as to where the note that says it was thirty miles from. The Ford to Rivendell.? It is only a couple in the Journeys of Frodo so is it from HoME?

It's actually from one of a whole series of time-distance lists Tolkien made (I would guess) while working on "The Hunt For the Ring;" at any rate some of the group are concerned with distances from the Fords of Isen to Sarn Ford etc. There's also some fascinating stuff on Hobbit measurements, which (unsurprisingly) are just as anatomical and impractical as RW Imperial measures. None of it published, at least not yet.

[Pervinca Took]

Gandalf told Frodo that the whole of the valley was under Elrond's command. It would make sense for a wide area (and a Ford 30 miles away) to be under his control; Galadriel protects Lothlorien with the aid of Nenya, and Vilya was the mightiest of the Three.

[Mithalwen]

Thanks. I can forgive myself for not knowing then! :cool: I must admit I didn't think the Strachey map quite tallied. With the impression you get from the Hobbit even allowing that Gandalf might not be as familiar as Glorfindel and Aragorn with the route.

[Mithalwen]

Gandalf told Frodo that the whole of the valley was under Elrond's command. It would make sense for a wide area (and a Ford 30 miles away) to be under his control; Galadriel protects Lothlorien with the aid of Nenya, and Vilya was the mightiest of the Three.

When it's not Narya...:p

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The sprint to the Ford happened "in late afternoon" -say 5 o'clock in October. Given Frodo's condition, I wouldn't think thay would have moved him with anything rougher than a horse-litter, or if necessary on a horse's back at a walk.... 5-6 mph. That would make their arrival circa 10-11 pm, which would certainly count as "that night".

[Inziladun]

Considering the account of Bilbo of his arrival at Rivendell in The Hobbit, a distance of many miles from the Ford to the Last Homely House seems more than reasonable.

They crossed the Ford in the morning, and didn't arrive at the valley until dusk. And with Gandalf leading the way, too! Then again, maybe he was just toying with the Dwarves and knew the way all along. :D

I realize the particulars of Eriador geography weren't as clear-cut in Tolkien's mind when he wrote TH, but still...

[Pervinca Took]

Mith, do you mean that Narya is referred to in another source as the mightiest of the Three?

Thanks for the clarifications, all - I have often wondered how long the rest of the journey would have taken, and how they would have got there. Presumably the elves rode to meet them with enough horses for the others to ride as well.

[Ivriniel]

I've always assumed that Imladris was a known haven of Elvendom in Minas Anor. Gandalf went to Minas Tirith to research The Ring, when Isildur took it. Valandil, Isildur's youngest son was reared in Imladris. It wasn't that secret a secret locale. Just difficult to invade.

Sauron knew where Imladris was located. This was revealed to me, only recently, as I waded through materials about Celeborn and Galadriel (UT). During the War of Elves and Sauron, Sauron had Elrond contained, for a short while, in Imladris. 1695, SA, the House of the Mirdain was sacked. 1700, Gil Galad gets Numenorean help. He was holed up in Lindon, Gulf of Lhun and Numenorean help came just in time. Sauron had Imladris isolated sometime in that intervening five years.

Boromir had that dream, once, that Faramir had many times "seek for the sword that was broken, in Imladris it dwells). It makes sense that Boromir and his dad went through the archives and found materials about Elrond, who helped Isildur in the Last Alliance)....

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Except that Denethor plainly didn't know: "All he could tell me was that Imladris was the name of a far northern dell where Elrond and Half-elven dwelt."

Minas Tirith's archives would have been little use regarding Tar-Minastir's expeditionary force and the First War of the Rings (4500 years before), since all of Numenor's records were lost in the Downfall.

[Faramir Jones]

Except that Denethor plainly didn't know: "All he could tell me was that Imladris was the name of a far northern dell where Elrond and Half-elven dwelt."

Minas Tirith's archives would have been little use regarding Tar-Minastir's expeditionary force and the First War of the Rings (4500 years before), since all of Numenor's records were lost in the Downfall.

That's not quite true, William. There are hints in the Akallabêth and 'A Description of the Island of Númenor' in Unfinished Tales that some records were saved by the Faithful. Also, perhaps some of the Faithful who survived might have noted down what they themselves remembered, or what they remember other people talking about, from the records.

I would certainly agree that the vast majority of records were lost in the Downfall, and that there were large gaps in the knowledge of those who survived.

[cellurdur]

Except that Denethor plainly didn't know: "All he could tell me was that Imladris was the name of a far northern dell where Elrond and Half-elven dwelt."

Minas Tirith's archives would have been little use regarding Tar-Minastir's expeditionary force and the First War of the Rings (4500 years before), since all of Numenor's records were lost in the Downfall.

Information survived they just could not bring themselves to look at it.

Ignoring that there is the information Isildur may have left behind. His wife and son were still staying in Rivendell. Denethor had access to the library, but it does not mean he had read everything in it.

[Puddleglum]

Information survived they just could not bring themselves to look at it.

Ignoring that there is the information Isildur may have left behind. His wife and son were still staying in Rivendell. Denethor had access to the library, but it does not mean he had read everything in it.
Sure. The library would have 3200 years of records! Think the U.S. National Archives multiplied by 15!
Denethor claimed (to Gandalf) to know more of the city's lore than anyone else - but that doesn't mean he was an expert on everything that was there. Could ANYONE really know everything there?

Gandalf suspected the scroll of Isuldur (about the ring) had not been ead by any but him and Saruman since the Kings failed - 1200 years before. How likely is it that anyone would have felt the need to search out the location of Rivendell over the previous Mellenium?

Besides, how would you describe it's location? "Go to the Ford of Bruinen and it's within 30 miles - IF you can find the path"??? It's not so easy - especially in a land with many canyons and ravines. Assume you can't just follow the Bruinen upstream - the canyon is likely impassible that way. Certainly, no one would have had the Lat/Long coordinates - and how would a traveler use such in that time even if he had it? GPS? Forget it. ;)

Besides, even 5/600 yars earlier, in the dire straights of the Balchoth crisis, Cirion apparently never considered seeking help from the Elves (his Riders bypassed Lorien without even a wave and there is no indication he thought to ask Rivendell for help) suggesting they weren't even on the radar screen. That just suggests that, for multi-hundreds of years (at least0 n oone would have been searching the archives for the location of Rivendell.

Denethor was enough of a lore-master to know it existed, but it seems likely even he really didn't know it's precise location (just a "far northern dell") - making Boromir's travel more of a quest, than a simple journey --- and all the more impressive for that.

[Belegorn]

since all of Numenor's records were lost in the Downfall.

I'd say that many were lost, but they did salvage some records and heirlooms, as well as artifacts like the Seeing Stones and the Tree. This can be inferred from the following passage about the Faithful taking 9 ships to M-E holding things of power and beauty;

"vessels and jewels, and scrolls of lore written in scarlet and black. And Seven Stones they had, the gift of the Eldar; but in the ship of Isildur was guarded the young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair." [Sil., Akallabêth, p. 342]

Faramir, who would be Steward, was learned in the lore of Men, as can be seen in his discussion with Frodo and Sam [RotK, bk. 4, ch. 5, p. 338-340] However, he does admit to Frodo and Sam, "I am not learned in Elven-lore." [p. 340]

[Ivriniel]

Sure. The library would have 3200 years of records! Think the U.S. National Archives multiplied by 15!
Denethor claimed (to Gandalf) to know more of the city's lore than anyone else - but that doesn't mean he was an expert on everything that was there. Could ANYONE really know everything there?

Gandalf suspected the scroll of Isuldur (about the ring) had not been ead by any but him and Saruman since the Kings failed - 1200 years before. How likely is it that anyone would have felt the need to search out the location of Rivendell over the previous Mellenium?

Besides, how would you describe it's location? "Go to the Ford of Bruinen and it's within 30 miles - IF you can find the path"??? It's not so easy - especially in a land with many canyons and ravines. Assume you can't just follow the Bruinen upstream - the canyon is likely impassible that way. Certainly, no one would have had the Lat/Long coordinates - and how would a traveler use such in that time even if he had it? GPS? Forget it. ;)

Besides, even 5/600 yars earlier, in the dire straights of the Balchoth crisis, Cirion apparently never considered seeking help from the Elves (his Riders bypassed Lorien without even a wave and there is no indication he thought to ask Rivendell for help) suggesting they weren't even on the radar screen. That just suggests that, for multi-hundreds of years (at least0 n oone would have been searching the archives for the location of Rivendell.

Denethor was enough of a lore-master to know it existed, but it seems likely even he really didn't know it's precise location (just a "far northern dell") - making Boromir's travel more of a quest, than a simple journey --- and all the more impressive for that.

Rivendell had scouts, to be sure, everyone. A guy like Boromir, so obviously, 'minas-tirith-ish' up north would have attracted attention enough, don't you think?

That, and add to the materials that The Last Alliance was not exactly the war that everyone forgot, which I add to my post upstream about Valandil reared in Imladris. Then, Second Age materials aside (5000 years is a long time, tho we have records that old from Egypt), Elendil's founding efforts, his ties to Fornost, Evendim, Amon Sul, and the three principalities of Arnor, the many-hundreds-of-year war with The Witch King, and Elrond's assistance in that war (entre Glorfindel's prophetic words) then Arvedui's ties to Gondor during a time, well into TA, where traffic flowed up the Greenway on a road maintained by the King -- this cluster of items would leave me inclined to think that Boromir had some kind of background knowledge about Rivendell's location. Where the Greenway meets the Great East Road, I'd have imagined was a point well known to Gondor....