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Gandalf12
08-02-2000, 07:24 AM
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I tried looking in the Appendices... but its really no help

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The Barrow-Wight
08-02-2000, 01:23 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Does anyone know how Sauron came to Middle-Earth?

Sauron was a Maiar, originally of Aule but swayed to the service of Melkor. Most likely he came to Ea and Arda with Aule but later changed allegiance to Melkor ....

...or was he with Melkor when they first came to Ea? Does anyone know?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Gwaihir the Windlord
08-02-2000, 11:43 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Does anyone know how Sauron came to Middle-Earth?

He was probably swayed under Morgoth's dominion after the Dark Lord had risen to power in Middle-Earth, so I think your first guess was right, Ron. That's only my opinion though. Does anyone know for sure?

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The Barrow-Wight
08-03-2000, 05:33 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Does anyone know how Sauron came to Middle-Earth?

According to the last page of the Valaquenta Sauron was ineed one of those later swayed to Melkor's service
with 'lies and treacherous gifts'.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Gandalf12
08-03-2000, 07:46 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> So...

Sauron was originally not evil? That's a scary thought... think that Sauron could have been one of the Istari before he was swayed by Morgoth? All the books say that there were only five of them... you never know. Imagination knows no limits <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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The Barrow-Wight
08-03-2000, 07:51 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: So...

I believe the title 'Istari' was used to idicate the Maiar that came to Middle-Earth to counter Sauron. Before that, the term was not in use.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Arathorn II
08-03-2000, 01:28 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: So...

Sauron/Gorthaur came to Arda at the same time as the rest of the Valar and Maiar,
but after Ar-Paraz˘hn tried to attack Aman the Valar and Maiar left Arda to live in Eń,
so Sauron was the only &quot;Maia&quot; left on Arda, but since he is evil he is a Valaraukar/U-Maia.
He was orginally a &quot;servant&quot; of Aule before he followed Melkor/Morgoth.

Istari came from Eń to Arda in year 1000 3rd Age.

Probably a bit of topic...<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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lindil
08-05-2000, 07:37 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: So...

...sauron being the only maia left in arda.
with the possible exception of Bombadil ?
has there been any consensus here [or anywhere?] re: T.B.'s race?

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The Barrow-Wight
08-05-2000, 12:35 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: So...

JRRT himself described Tom Bombadil as an enigma - one-of-a-kind. So according to the good Professor, TB wasn't like anything or anybody else.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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lindil
08-05-2000, 12:40 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> tom ain't no maia

Is this from the letters or...

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The Barrow-Wight
08-05-2000, 12:41 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: tom ain't no maia

Yes.... I don't own the letters, but I have seen numberous ppl quote this particular point from them.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Gandalf12
08-05-2000, 02:31 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> I don't belive it...

RK's right... Tom B.'s unique. I think someone should start a topic about Bombadil and Goldberry <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> well thanx for the answers guys...

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noldo
08-07-2000, 02:13 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I don't belive it...

Goldberry was a maia, wasn't she?

Sauron first was in the service of AulŰ the Smith, when valar and maiar both came to Eń. Melkor, Morgoth spoiled and ruined some of these beautiful and good spirits. The Balrogs that had been great spirits of fire at first, became horrible monsters. I believe that even Sauron was turned with anger and hate.

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Gwaihir the Windlord
08-07-2000, 03:31 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Possible

Maybe JRRT said Bombadil was one of a kind, becausehe was so different from the other Maia? GOldberry was a Maia though, I am almost certain.

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Faramir
10-10-2000, 09:06 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> This

He was swayed to evil, by Melkor and was the chief lieutenant and in command of the second fortress set up by Melkor. After the destruction by the Valar of the fortress Utumno and Melkor's minions were either killed or lost, Sauron got away. Going to ME? And regrouping some balrogs to go in and free Melkor from the Ring of Doom. Then go on and yada yada, then be cast down from power in the first age or so... moving right along to the Middle Age, where he became the Necromancer of that tower that Gandalf was sent to find out about, because the Necromancer's identity was unknown, and it was Sauron, who was then sent to Mordor, and erected vast armies and fortifications to take on Minas Tirith till he was killed...

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Tar Anarion
10-11-2000, 01:06 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: So...

quote:
***Sauron/Gorthaur came to Arda at the same time as the rest of the Valar and Maiar,
but after Ar-Paraz˘hn tried to attack Aman the Valar and Maiar left Arda to live in Eń,
so Sauron was the only &quot;Maia&quot; left on Arda, but since he is evil he is a Valaraukar/U-Maia.
He was orginally a &quot;servant&quot; of Aule before he followed Melkor/Morgoth.***

I just wanted to take up this again because it seems noone have mentioned anything about it. They did not leave Arda, Arda was the hole world they were living in now, and beyond Arda was the walls of night and beyond that again Ea. Noone could leave Arda until its end, so all was still in Arda.
Sauron was not a Valaraukar, for that is the word for the Balrogs.



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The Barrow-Wight
10-11-2000, 05:03 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: So...

quam was just mentioning in another thread that the Balrogs (the valaraukar) were Maiar, too. So Sauron wasn't the last. But he was certainly the last of the best (of the worst <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> )

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Gimli7326
09-09-2003, 07:49 PM
No one really knows when Sauron came to Middle Earth. The only thing I've read says that he came from the far West, as the leutenent of Morgoth.

Eldar14
09-10-2003, 05:08 PM
Sauron was originally a servant of Aule for a while, but somewhere along the line he was swayed by Melkor. Later, when Morgoth was ruling most of ME, Sauron was his one of his top thanes (had his own fortress and everything). Then during the Beren and Luthien story he was pretty much defeated and really didn't come back on the scene until the Ring of Power incident. Then after being struck down by Narsil he layed low untill he came back as the necromancer mentioned in the Hobbit.

Also, to clear up some of the Maiar, Istari, etc. confusion I noticed above. All of the people one class below the Valar who came to Ea were the Maiar. Now there are a couple subgroups of the Maiar, namely the Balrogs (servants of Morgoth) and the Istari (the wizards sent over later: aka Gandalf, Saruman, etc.)

Lastly, I don't think TB is a Maiar. I don't remember the exact wording, but in either Sil or something, when it was describing all the Valar going to Ea after their music, it said that the people who went were the Valar, the Maiar, and many other spirits, or something like that. So some of the characters I think fit into the third category, like TB and Ungoliant.

Keeper of Dol Guldur
09-11-2003, 07:11 PM
The Silmarillion said that Sauron was a Maia of Aule before he turned to evil. If he followed Aule's teachings, that would have meant that he had been in Valinor for considerable time before being swayed, because during the time of the music, there wouldn't have been anything to teach other than song, and Aule taught Sauron the art of craft.

It did say that Sauron was later corrupted by Morgoth, but as far as the Maia he was one of the first. Going from the realm of the Valar to Middle Earth itself, had to take place before the Siege of Utumno, because Sauron had commanded Angband for long years prior to that. How he got there is anyone's guess, typically the Maia had no problems crossing the seas, whether by ship or without. My speculation would say he came across the Helcaraxe.