The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Findegil]

Here we go again. This is the first draft of the chapter. To garante that I can edit this I will split the chapter into its sub-chapters.

Our basis text is that of Quenta Silmarillion given in HoME volume 5; page 279-89. I have take up the §-numbers form that text for the easier identification of the changes form LQ. All additions and changes are makred with their source. The text is reduced to the parts we have to change.

There are 4 groups of changes, one for each sub-chapter:
RB-DB-xx for Ruin of Beleriand - Dagor Bargolach
RB-DF-xx for Ruin of Beleriand - Death of Fingolfin
RB-SE-xx for Ruin of Beleriand - Sige of Eithel Sirion
RB-SM-xx for Ruin of Beleriand - Swarthy Men

Beside that we have of course the general changes, but they are collected in a thread of their own.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
§132 Now Fingolfin, ... But because the land was fair and their kingdoms wide, most of the Noldor were grown content with things as they were, trusting them to last RB-DB-01 <GA and were slow to begin an assault in which many must surely perish, were it in victory or defeat>. Therefore they were little disposed to hearken to Fingolfin, and the sons of Fëanor at that time least of all. ... So the designs of Fingolfin RB-DB-02 {came to naught}<GA were delayed and came in the end to naught>, and the land had peace yet for a while.
§133 RB-DB-03 {But when the sons of the sons of the Fathers of Men were but newly come to manhood}<LQ2; Correction to QS But when the RB-DB-04 {fifth}[sixth] generation of Men after Bëor and Marach were not yet come to full manhood>, it being then four hundred years and five and fifty since the coming of Fingolfin, the evil befell that he had long dreaded, and yet more dire and sudden than his darkest fear. ... For Morgoth had long prepared his force in secret, while ever the malice of his heart grew greater, and his hatred of the {Gnomes}[Elves] more bitter; and he desired not only to end his foes but to destroy also and defile the lands that they had taken and made fair. And it is said that his hate overcame his counsel, so that if he had but endured to wait longer, until his designs were full, then the {Gnomes}[Elves] would have perished utterly. ...
§134 There came a time of winter, when night was dark and without moon; and the wide plain of {Bladorion}[Ard-galen] stretched dim beneath the cold stars from the hill-forts of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] to the feet of Thangorodrim. ... Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that poured, swifter than the cavalry of the Balrogs, over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth RB-DB-05 {fires of many colours, and the fume stank upon the air}<LQ1 fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume thereof stank upon the air> and was deadly. Thus {Bladorion}[Ard-galen] perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifefless; and its name was changed, and ever after was called {the Land of Thirst, Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith]<LQ2[Footnote: That is Land under Choking Ash]> in the RB-DB-06 {Gnomish}<LQ2 {Noldorin}[Sindarin]> tongue. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave. For many {Gnomes}[Elves] perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills. ... This was the Third of the great Battles, Dagor {Vreged-sir}, the Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame].
§135 In the front of that fire came {Golmund}[Glaurung] the golden, the father of dragons, [b]RB-DB-07 <GA now in his full might,> and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the {Gnomes}[Elves] had never before seen or imagined. And they assaulted the fortresses of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], and broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them both the {Gnomes}[Noldor] and their allies, Dark-elves and Men. ... War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame] is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onset of Morgoth grew less. For he saw now that he had not assembled sufficient strength, nor rightly measured the valour of the {Gnomes}[Elves]. ...
§136 Thus ended the Siege of Angband; ...
§137 The sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assault, and Angrod and {Egnor}[Aegnor] were slain; and RB-DB-08 {Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father's death,}<LQ2 Bregolas, son of Bregor, who was lord of the house of Bëor after Boromir his father's death> RB-DB-09 <GA and a great part of the warriors of Bëor's folk> {was}were slain beside them. RB-DB-10 <GA But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further westward nigh the passes of Sirion. There>{In that battle} King {Inglor}[Finrod] Felagund RB-DB-11 <GA , hastening from the south, was defeated> {was}and cut off from his folk RB-Db-12 <GA with small company> and surrounded by the Orcs RB-DB-13 <LQ1 in the Fen of Serech betwixt Mithrim and Dorthonion>, and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir son of {Bëor} came up with his men and rescued him, and made a wall of spears about him; and they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped [b]RB-DB-14 {and went south to Nargothrond, his deep fortress prepared against the evil day}; but he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need unto Barahir and all his kin and seed, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring RB-DB-15 <GA , an heirloom of his house>. RB-DB-16 <GA Then {Inglor}[Finrod] went south to Nargothrond RB-DB-17 <QS , his deep fortress prepared against the evil day>, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor.> RB-DB-18 <LQ2; Correction to QS But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he}[Orodreth] sent away his wife{ Meril} to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.>
§138 Barahir was now by right lord of the remnant of the folk of Bëor; but most of these fled RB-DB-19 {now} <LQ1 away> from Dorthonion and took refuge among the people of Hador in the fastness of Hithlum. ... Therefore it was after called by the {Gnomes}[Elves] {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and Delduwath, Deadly Nightshade; ...
RB-DB-20 {§139 At length only twelve men remained to Barahir: ...
}§140 So great was the onslaught of Morgoth that Fingolfin and Fingon could not come to the succour of Felagund and his brethren; ... Hador the golden-haired, prince of Men, fell in battle before the walls defending the rearguard of his lord Fingolfin, being then sixty and six years of age, and with him fell Gundor his younger son RB-DB-21 <GA , pierced with many arrows>; and they were mourned by the Elves. But {Gumlin}[Galdor] took the lordship of his father. ...
[Here the picture 'Hringboga Heorte Gefysed' is added with its name as title]
§141 For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor, and well nigh all the east marches were taken by assault. The pass of Aglon was forced, though with great cost to Morgoth RB-DB-22 {; and Celegorn and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath and came at last to Nargothrond, and sought harbour with RB-DB-23 {their friend}<LQ1 {Inglor}[Finrod] and> Orodreth. Thus it came to pass that the people of Celegorn swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.}. <GA Celegorn and Curufin held strong forces behind Aglon, and many horsed archers, but they were overthrown, and Celegorn and Curufin hardly escaped, and passed westward along the north borders of Doriath with such mounted following as they could save, and came thus at length to the vale of Sirion.> {Maidros}[Maeðros] the chief of Fëanor's sons did deeds of surpassing valour, and the Orcs could not endure the light of his face; ..., both of the folk of Dorthonion and of the east marches rallied there to {Maidros}[Maeðros]; and for a while he closed once more the pass of Aglon, so that the Orcs could not enter Beleriand by that road.
§142 But they overwhelmed the riders of the folk of Fëanor upon Lothland, for {G1omund}[Glaurung] came thither, and passed through {Maglor}[Maelor]'s Gap, and destroyed all the land between the arms of {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RB-DB-24 <GA broke through{ upon either side, through Aglon and} between {Gelion}[Duin Daer] and {Celon}[Limhir]>. And the Orcs took the fortress upon the west slopes of Mount Rerir, and ravaged all {Thargelion}[Talath Rhúnen], the land of {Cranthir}[Caranthir]; and they defiled Lake Helevorn. Thence they passed over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] with fire and terror and came far into East Beleriand. {Maglor}[Maelor] joined {Maidros}[Maeðros] upon Himring; but {Cranthir}[Caranthir] fled and joined the remnant of his people to the scattered folk of the {hunters}hunter, {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], and they retreated and passed Rhamdal in the South. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves; and the Orcs came not yet into Ossiriand RB-DB-25 {or the wild of South Beleriand}<LQ1 nor to Taur-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south>.
[Here the picture 'Dragon with Warrior' is added with its name as title]
§143 For nearly two years the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way, for the time of his full strength was not come; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, RB-DB-26 <GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed RB-DB-27{Fingolfin}[Fingon] in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with RB-DB-28 {a host of} Balrogs. RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the {gods}[Valar], but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA and his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon Tolsirion.> He took {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] by assault, RB-DB-33 {the tower of {Inglor}[Finrod] upon the isle of Sirion,}<GA after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but Celegorn and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled Celegorn and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of Celegorn swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>
§154 But Sauron took {Minnas-tirith}[Minas Tirith] and made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth, and filled it with evil; for he was a sorcerer and a master of phantoms and terror. And the fair isle of Tolsirion became accursed and was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves; for Sauron fed many of these evil things.> {and}And he made it a stronghold of evil, and a menace; {[Footnote to the text: And it became called {Tol-na-Gaurhoth}[Tol-in-Gaurhoth], the Isle of Werewolves.]} for no living creature could pass through that vale that he did not espy from the tower where he sat. And Morgoth held now also the western pass and his terror filled the fields and woods of Beleriand.
To be continued.

[Findegil]

Part two of the text:
The Death of Fingolfin
§144 It came to pass that news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin] overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. RB-DF-01{Then Fingolfin saw that the ruin of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] was at hand, and he was filled with wrath and despair, and a madness came upon him. And he rode alone to the gates of Angband, and he sounded his horn and smote upon the brazen gates and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. }<GA Now Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, beheld (as him seemed) the utter ruin of his people, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses, and he was filled with wrath and despair. ... Thus he came alone to Angband's gate and smote upon it once again, and sounding a challenge upon his silver horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat, crying: 'Come forth, thou coward king, to fight with thine own hand! Den-dweller, wielder of thralls, liar and lurker, foe of {Gods}[Valar] and Elves, come! For I would see thy craven face.'> And Morgoth came. That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might [b]RB-DF-02 {is}<LQ1 was> greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he RB-DF-03 {knows}<LQ1 knew> fear. ... But Fingolfin RB-DF-04 <GA withstood him> {gleamed}gleaming beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, and it glittered like ice, cold and grey and deadly. ...
§147 Thus died Fingolfin, High-king of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs make no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, RB-DF-05 {for sorrow; but the tale of it is remembered, for Thorondor, king of eagles, brought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum. For Morgoth}<LQ1 for their sorrow is too deep. Yet the tale of it is remembered still, for Thorondor, king of eagles, brought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum afar off. Lo! Morgoth> took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would hew it asunder and cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of {Gochressiel}[Crissaegrim], and he stooped upon Morgoth, and smote his golden beak into his face. ... Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; ... And the Orcs growing ever bolder wandered at will far and wide, coming down Sirion in the West and {Celon}[Limhir] in the East, and they encompassed Doriath; and they harried the lands, so that beast and bird fled before them, and silence and desolation spread steadily from the North. Great numbers of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], and of the Dark-elves, they took captive and led to Angband, and made thralls, forcing them to use their skill and knowledge in the service of Morgoth. ...
§149 Yet Morgoth sent also his spies and emissaries among the Dark-elves and the thrall-{Gnomes}[Noldor], ... and indeed as the times darkened they had a measure of truth, for the hearts and minds of the Elves of Beleriand became clouded with despair and fear. RB-DF-08 {And most the Gnomes feared}<LQ1 And ever the {Gnomes}[Noldor] feared most> the treachery of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; ...
RB-DF-09 <GA {but}But {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.
§159 At last so desperate was the case of Barahir that Emeldir the Manhearted his wife ... And some were there received into Haleth's folk, and some passed on to {Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] and the people of {Galion}[Galdor] Hador's son. ... For these were slain one by one, or fled, until at last only Barahir and Beren his son, and Baragund and Belegund sons of Bregolas, were left, and with them {[eight >]} nine desperate men whose names were long remembered in song: Dagnir and Ragnor, Radhruin and Dairuin and Gildor, Urthel and Arthad and Hathaldir, and Gorlim Unhappy. ... No help came to them and they were hunted as wild beasts.>
Yet RB-DF-10 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth>{ remained still free; for they} had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion... for after the taking of {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] the Orcs came through the western pass, and would maybe have ravaged even unto the mouths of Sirion; but RB-DF-11 {Haleth}[Halmir Lord of the Haladin] sent swift word to Thingol, being friendly with many of the Elves that guarded the borders of Doriath. And Thingol sent Beleg the bowman, chief of his march-wardens, to his aid with many archers RB-DF-12 <GA and great strength of the Eglath armed with axes>; and {Haleth}[Halmir] and Beleg took an Orc-legion at unawares in the forest, and destroyed it; and the advance of the power of Morgoth southward down the course of Sirion was stayed{.}, RB-DF-13 <GA and the Orcs did not dare to cross the {Taiglin}[Taeglin] for many years after.> Thus the folk of Haleth dwelt yet for many years in watchful peace in the forest of Brethil; and behind their guard the kingdom of Nargothrond had respite and mustered anew its strength.
RB-DF-14 §153 It is said that Húrin <GA and Huor> {son}sons of {Gumlin}[Galdor], son of Hador, of Hithlum {was}were with {Haleth}[Halmir] in that battle, and {he was}they were then seventeen[ and thirteen] years of age; and this {was his}were their first deed of arms, but not {his}their last. For {Húrin son}[the sons] of {Gumlin}[Galdor] {was}were fostered for a while in boyhood by {Haleth}[Halmir], according to the custom of Men and Elves in that time. And it is recorded that {in the autumn of the year of Sudden {Fire}[Flame] {Haleth}[Halmir] took Húrin, then newcome from his father's house, and they went hunting} <GA being with a company that was cut off from the rest, they were pursued to the ford of Brithiach; and there they would have been taken or slain, but for the power of Ulmo, which was still strong in Sirion. Therefore a mist arose from the river and hid them from their enemies, and they escaped into Dimbar, and wandered> northward up the vale of Sirion{; and by chance or the will of Ulmo they came upon the secret entrance to the hidden valley of Tumladin, where Gondolin was built}. But they were taken by the {guards}[guard of the eagles], and brought before Turgon; and they looked upon the forbidden city, whereof none of those outside yet knew aught, save Thorondor king of eagles. Turgon welcomed them; for messages and dreams had come to him up Sirion from the sea, from Ulmo, Lord of Waters, warning him of woe to come and foretelling that the aid of mortal men would be necessary, if he would save any of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] from their doom. But Turgon deemed that Gondolin was strong, and the time not ripe for its revealing; and he would not suffer the men to depart. It is said that he had great liking for the boy Húrin, and love was joined to policy; for he desired to keep Húrin at his side in Gondolin. But tidings came of the great battle, and the need of {Gnomes}[Elves] and Men; and {Haleth and }Húrin[ and Hour] besought Turgon for leave to go to the aid of their own folk. Turgon then granted their prayer, but they swore deep oaths to him, and never revealed his secret; and such of the counsels of Turgon as Húrin had learned he kept hidden in his heart. Turgon would not as yet suffer any of his own folk to issue forth to war, and {Haleth and }Húrin[ and Huor] departed from Gondolin alone[ by the way that had come]. But Turgon, rightly deeming that the breaking of the Siege of Angband was the beginning of the downfall of the Noldor, ...
§155 Rumour came to Morgoth of these things, ... Thus Beleriand in the South had a semblance of peace again for a few brief years; but the forges of Angband were full of labour.TO be continued.

[Findegil]

Part three of the text:
The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
RB-SE-01 <Sil77 When seven years had passed since the Fourth Battle,> <GA {Here} Morgoth renewed his assaults, seeking to advance further into Beleriand and secure his hold southwards. ... The army that had driven into East Beleriand had been broken by Thingol on the borders of Doriath, and part had fled away south never to return to him, part retreating north had been stricken by a sortie of {Maidros}[Maeðros], while those that ventured near the mountains were hunted by the Dwarves. And still upon his flank Hithlum stood firm.>
{§156 Nor did the assault upon the northern strongholds cease. Himring Morgoth besieged so close that no help might come from {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he threw suddenly a great force against Hithlum.} RB-SE-02 <GA §171 He resolved, therefore, now to send force against Hithlum; for in the eastward war he hoped ere long to have new help unforeseen by the Eldar. The assault upon Hithlum was bitter, but it was repelled from the passes of Erydwethrin. There, however, in the siege of the fortress of Eithel Sirion {Galion}[Galdor] was slain, for he held it on behalf of King Fingon. Húrin his son was but then new come to manhood, but he was mighty in heart and strength, and he defeated the Orcs and drove them with loss from the walls into the sands of Anfauglith. Thereafter he ruled the House of Hador. {[Added subsequently:]} Of less stature was he than his father (or his son after him), but tireless and enduring in body; lithe and swift he was, after the manner of his mother's kin, the daughter of {Haleth}[Halmir].
§172 But King Fingon with most of the Noldor was hard put to it to hold back the army of Angband that came down from the north.> The Orcs won many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim RB-SE-03 <GA Battle was joined upon the very plains of Hithlum, and Fingon was outnumbered; but timely help came from Círdan. His ships in great strength sailed into Drengist and there landed a force that came up in the hour of need upon the west flank of the enemy. Then the Eldar had the victory and the Orcs broke and fled>; but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them far across the sands of Fauglith RB-SE-04 <GA , {pursued}pursuing them by the horsed archers even to the Iron Mountains.>. Yet sorrow marred his victory, for [the death of ]{Gumlin}[Galdor] son of Hador {was }slain by an arrow in the siege of the fortress of Fingon at Eithel Sirion. {Húrin his son was then new-come to manhood, but he was great in strength both of mind and body; and he ruled now the house of Hador and served Fingon.[Footnote: For he returned unto his own folk after the victory in the woods of Brethil, while the ways north to Hithlum were passable because of the defeat of the Orcs at that time.]} And in this time also the outlaws of Dorthonion were destroyed, and Beren son of Barahir alone escaping came hardly into Doriath.To be continued.

[Findegil]

Part four of the text:
Of the Swarthy Men
§150 To Men Morgoth feigned pity, if any would hearken to his messages, saying that their woes came only of their servitude to the rebel {Gnomes}[Elves], but at the hands of the rightful lord of earth they would get honour and a just reward of valour, if they would leave rebellion. ...
§151 RB-SM-01 <GA {the}The Swarthy Men came out of Eriador, and passing north about the Eryd Luin entered into Lothlann. Their coming was not wholly unlookedfor, since the Dwarves had warned {Maidros}[Maeðros] that hosts of Men out of the further East were journeying towards Beleriand.> Now the Easterlings or Romenildi, as the Elves named these newcomers, were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their hair was black, and grew much also upon their face and breast; their skins were swart or sallow, and their eyes brown RB-SM-02 {; yet their countenances were for the most part not uncomely, though some were grim and fierce. Their houses and tribes were many, and some had greater liking for the {Dwarfs}[Dwarves] of the mountains than for the Elves. But the sons of Fëanor, seeing the weakness of the Noldor, and the growing power of the armies of Morgoth, made alliances with these men, and gave their friendship to the greatest of their chieftains, Bor and Ulfang.}<GA But they were not all of one kind, in looks or in temper, or in tongue. Some were not uncomely and were fair to deal with; some were grim and ill-favoured and of little trust. Their houses were many, and there was little love among them. They had small liking for the Elves, and for the most part loved rather the Naugrim of the mountains; but they were abashed by the lords of the Noldor, whose like they had not before encountered.
§174 But {Maidros}[Maeðros], knowing the weakness of the Noldor and the Elf-friends, whereas the pits of Angband seemed to hold store inexhaustible and ever renewed, made alliance with these new-come Men, and gave them dwellings both in Lothlann north of the March, and in the lands south of it. Now the two chieftains that had the greatest followings and authority were named Bor and Ulfang.> And Morgoth was well content; for this was as he had designed. The sons of Bor were RB-SM-03 {Borlas and Boromir and Borthandos}<LQ2 Borlad and Borlach and Borthand>RB-SM-04 <GA , and they were goodly men> ; and they followed {Maidros}[Maeðros] and {Maglor}[Maelor], and cheated the hope of Morgoth, and were faithful. The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast and Ulwarth and Uldor the Accursed; and they followed {Cranthir}[Caranthir] and swore allegiance to him, and proved faithless. RB-SM-05 <GA, Version II (It was after thought that the people of Ulfang were already secretly in the service of Morgoth ere they came to Beleriand.)><GA; Version II [Footnote: Not so the people of Bor, who were worthy folk and tillers of the earth. Of them, it is said, came the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age and {[? read} in{]} after-days.]>
§152 There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed. {Yet}[u]And[/b] RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> {remained still free; for they had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion.I will not comment on the changes today, since I am to tired. I think most of them should be selfevident. Beside I would have to dig deep in my mind to find what I thought back when I made these draft. So please start up the discussion when you see a point I missed or a change you find not okay.
Please feel free to disagree with me!

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok, I was reading your draft. The structure with mine is different because I follow the sequence of Sil77 but in the narrative sense tells the same. I don't think it matters.

Two things, in a first reading, leaving apart the parentage of Orodreth (in my text is the brother of Finrod) I think that is better to place the fled of his wife and sons (including Ereinion, not named Gil-galad yet), with him to Nargothrond when Sauron attacks Minas Tirith.

And why you change the placing of the sentence about Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond?

Greetings

[Findegil]

About the flight of Gil-galad with his mother: I think the main diffrence between your version and what I propose here, is that Gil-galad and his mother never came to Nargothrond in my version. They are send to the Havens, when things in the north become dangerous. Thus I avoid having Gil-galad involved in the Fall of Nargothrond, which would mean naming a way of escape for him. It is debateable when Gil-galad recived this name.

About Celegrom and Curufin: My understanding is that the brothers got to Nargothrond only after they had rescued Orodreth retreat from Tolsirion. Therefore I told at first only that they retreated to the West from Aglon.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

<GA Then {Inglor}[Finrod] went south to Nargothrond RB-DB-17 <QS , his deep fortress prepared against the evil day>, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor.> RB-DB-18 <LQ2; Correction to QS But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he}[Orodreth] sent away his wife{ Meril} to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.>

Should we not amend the "But" I have underlined to an "And," as the previous sentence not only begins with "but" as well, but also does not lead into the sentence about Orodreth at all?

[gondowe]

I propose this, (the phrasing is retranslated from spanish, I'm sorry)

§159 ... Thus the folk of Haleth dwelt yet for many years in watchful peace in the forest of Brethil; and behind their guard the kingdom of Nargothrond had respite and mustered anew its strength.
But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he sent away his wife{ Meril}}[Orodreth's wife left the people of Nargothrond and went] to her own folk in Eglarest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, Ereinion.>

[Aiwendil]

Gondowe: So if I understand correctly, you propose that Orodreth's wife and Gil-Galad first come with Orodreth to Nargothrond and then at some later (but presumably not much later) point are sent away to Eglarest. Is that right?

I don't see any compelling evidence in either direction (placing Gil-Galad's flight before or after the fall of Minas Tirith). But a case can perhaps be made that, despite the alteration of Gil-Galad's parentage, we should still use the date of 456 given in GA. In GA Minas Tirith is taken in 455, so this would seem to favour Gondowe's version. Does that make any sense? I'm not entirely sure about it myself.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Gondowe: So if I understand correctly, you propose that Orodreth's wife and Gil-Galad first come with Orodreth to Nargothrond and then at some later (but presumably not much later) point are sent away to Eglarest. Is that right?

I don't see any compelling evidence in either direction (placing Gil-Galad's flight before or after the fall of Minas Tirith). But a case can perhaps be made that, despite the alteration of Gil-Galad's parentage, we should still use the date of 456 given in GA. In GA Minas Tirith is taken in 455, so this would seem to favour Gondowe's version. Does that make any sense? I'm not entirely sure about it myself.

Is there any evidence that precludes keeping the same date? If not, then I agree. We should retain it.

[gondowe]

Gondowe: So if I understand correctly, you propose that Orodreth's wife and Gil-Galad first come with Orodreth to Nargothrond and then at some later (but presumably not much later) point are sent away to Eglarest. Is that right?

I don't see any compelling evidence in either direction (placing Gil-Galad's flight before or after the fall of Minas Tirith). But a case can perhaps be made that, despite the alteration of Gil-Galad's parentage, we should still use the date of 456 given in GA. In GA Minas Tirith is taken in 455, so this would seem to favour Gondowe's version. Does that make any sense? I'm not entirely sure about it myself.

Hello guys, sorry, I was busy these days.

Yes Aiwendil, that's right, and I think the 456 date could be a good date.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I have looked deeper into the question how to introduce Gil-galads departure into our texts. What is to be analysed is mostly in note on the Later Quenta Silmarillion in HoME 11. I give this note in full as fare as it is concerned with Gil-galad:The other alteration made to QS only, and obviously made much earlier than that just given, was an addition to the end of $137, after the words 'he [Felagund] gave to Barahir his ring'.

But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.

Felagund's wife Meril has not been named before, nor any child of his; and this is the first appearance of Gil-galad from The Lord of the Rings. Another note on the subject is found in the QS manuscript near the opening of the 'short' (i.e. condensed) version of the tale of Beren and Luthien (see V.293), pencilled rapidly at the foot of a page but clearly referring to the statement in the text that Felagund gave the crown of Nargothrond to Orodreth before his departure with Beren (The Silmarillion p. 170):

But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife.

This was struck out; and somewhat further on in the tale of Beren and Luthien in the same version is a third hasty note, without direction for insertion but evidently referring to the passage in which Orodreth expelled Celegorn and Curufin from Nargothrond (The Silmarillion p. 176):

But the Lady _ _ _ wife of Inglor forsook the folk of Nargothrond and went with her son Gilgalad to the Havens of the Falas.

A blank space is here left for the name of Felagund's wife. In each of these mentions, taking them in sequence, her departure is displaced to a later point; but of course they need not have been written in that sequence (although the third presumably replaced the second, which was struck out). On the other hand it seems very unlikely that the three additions do not belong together, though there seems to be no way of discovering with certainty when they were written. - It may also be noticed that a later correction to the old AB 2 manuscript changed the sentence in the concluding annal (V.144) 'But Elrond the Half-elfin remained, and ruled in the West of the world' to 'But Elrond the Half-elven remained with Gilgalad son of Inglor Felagund who ruled in the West of the world.'
In this connection must be mentioned the passage in the Grey Annals $$108-9 (p. 44), where it is expressly stated that 'King Inglor Felagund had no wife', and that when Galadriel came to Nargothrond for the feast celebrating its completion in the year 102 she asked him why:

... but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of all my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.

Amarie appears again in GA, in both versions of the retelling of the story of Beren and Luthien ($$180, 199), where it is said that Felagund dwells in Valinor with Amarie.
Later evidence makes it certain that the notes on the QS manuscript represent a rejected idea for the incorporation of Gil-galad into the traditions of the Elder Days; and the passage just cited from the Grey Annals is to be taken as showing that it had been abandoned. That Gil-galad was the son of Fingon (The Silmarillion p. 154) derives from the late note pencilled on the manuscript of GA ($157), stating that when Fingon became King of the Noldor on the death of Fingolfin 'his young son (?Findor) [sic] Gilgalad he sent to the Havens.' But this, adopted after much hesitation, was not in fact by any means the last of my father's speculations on this question.What I have taken up into the text was the first note and changed it to Orodreth.
In the third note the reason for the wife of Fealgund is very specifically his death in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Thus it is not useable since we have to switch to Orodreth wife.
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?
May be some one with a better take at english gramatic can tell me if the note must reffer to Felagunds son and wife or if it can not as well reffer to Orodreth family.

If it can then I think we should use that second note an incooperate it into our Beren and Luthien poem, like this:Hearing these words there swiftly stood {1910}
beside him ten tried warriors good, [2145]
men of his house who had ever fought
wherever his banners had been brought.
BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town {1915}
is now our fate, but not to lose [2150]
thy rightful lordship. Thou shalt choose
one to be steward in thy stead.'
Then Felagund upon the head
of Orodreth set it: BL-SL-04 ‘{Brother}[Nephew] mine, {1920}
till I return this crown is thine.' [2155]
Then Celegorm no more would stay,
and Curufin smiled and turned away.
BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour, [2160]
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain} the Silmarils {ever unto world's end.}gain
before the End; all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall {come indeed}be delivered from the triple peak, [2165]
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour {you}all
the sons of Fëanor, and{ deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
BL-EX-10.1 <LQ, note to chapter 15 {But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife. / But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.}[u]And to Orordreth further Finrod spoke:
‘In this dark time with little hope
all strong place are now doomed, I fear,
to fall at last before the might of Bauglir.
Thus I command: To Eglarest and her own kin
you send away the wife of thine.
And with her she should take her elvenchild,
called for the brightness of his eye, Gil-galad, Stralight.’
*My line are not good, really, but they might spark some ideas.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

...
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?
May be some one with a better take at english gramatic can tell me if the note must reffer to Felagunds son and wife or if it can not as well reffer to Orodreth family.

The note is sufficiently vague to refer to either. "His" has no clear antecedent; obviously the last "he" referred to was Felagund, but the proper noun "Orodreth" intervenes between the first pronoun and the second. In fact, in the most technical construction, according to the rules of English grammar, the word "his" must refer to Orodreth; as the last noun mentioned is strictly supposed to be the antecedent of all later pronouns of the same form, until the intervention of another noun.

If it can then I think we should use that second note an incooperate it into our Beren and Luthien poem, like this:
Hearing these words there swiftly stood {1910}
beside him ten tried warriors good, [2145]
men of his house who had ever fought
wherever his banners had been brought.
BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town {1915}
is now our fate, but not to lose [2150]
thy rightful lordship. Thou shalt choose
one to be steward in thy stead.'
Then Felagund upon the head
of Orodreth set it: BL-SL-04 ‘{Brother}[Nephew] mine, {1920}
till I return this crown is thine.' [2155]
Then Celegorm no more would stay,
and Curufin smiled and turned away.
BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour, [2160]
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain} the Silmarils {ever unto world's end.}gain
before the End; all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall {come indeed}be delivered from the triple peak, [2165]
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour {you}all
the sons of Fëanor, and{ deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
BL-EX-10.1 <LQ, note to chapter 15 {But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife. / But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.}And to Orordreth further Finrod spoke:
‘In this dark time with little hope
all strong place are now doomed, I fear,
to fall at last before the might of Bauglir.
Thus I command: To Eglarest and her own kin
you send away the wife of thine.
And with her she should take her elvenchild,
called for the brightness of his eye, Gil-galad, Stralight.’
*

My line are not good, really, but they might spark some ideas.

Respectfully
Findegil

Perhaps:

BL-EX-10.1 <LQ, note to chapter 15 {But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife. / But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.}To Orodreth then Finrod spoke:
‘In this dark time with little hope
I fear at last shall places strong
soon fall before the Orkish throng.
To Eglarest, her home, I say,
thine own dear wife now send away.
And with her take thy young princeling,
Ereinion, heir of the king.
Whose name we call, for eyes so bright,
Gil-galad, the silver Starlight.’


And I also noticed that some of your verses don't have eight syllables after the style of Ann-thennath. Did you not follow that form?

[Findegil]

Really good.

It remains the question which note we take as basis.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

It looks very good the addition to the Narn, and in the sense of time passed, (not so close to the fall of Minas Tirith) perhaps it's a better place.

I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time ,when he is High King, in the later chapter?

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time ,when he is High King, in the later chapter?

This is an interesting point. Linguistically, of course,we must make distinction between the two names "Gilgalad" and "Gil-galad." The name Gilgalad (incidentally the form used in the note) is a compound of gil "star" and calad "light," (with the c lenited to a g) and does in fact mean "starlight."

The name Gil-galad, however, is not a compound, but rather a juxtaposition of gil with a completely separate word galad meaning "shining radiance; reflection." Thus we translate this name (following regular Sindarin conventions) "Star-of-Radiance."

Since Gil-galad was the form finally chosen by Tolkien, we must accept "Star of Radiance" as the accurate translation. Perhaps we could simply omit the two lines about his epessë?

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:
In the third note the reason for the wife of Fealgund is very specifically his death in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Thus it is not useable since we have to switch to Orodreth wife.
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?


Reading the second note in isolation, it does rather sound to me as if it refers to Orodreth's wife, not Felagund's.

However, we can't simply read it in isolation. Christopher Tolkien seems rather confident that the third note replaced the second - and this is supported by the fact that the second note was struck out. In the third note, Gil-Galad is clearly Felagund's son, not Orodreth's. I think this strongly suggests that the second note was intended to refer to Felagund's wife/son as well. It seems very unlikely to me that Gil-Galad's parentage would be switched from Felagund to Orodreth and then switched back, without other evidence for such a progression. More likely, he was Felagund's son in all three QS notes and the second note, probably written in haste, was unintentionally expressed ambiguously.

I'm also skeptical of taking the date of Gil-Galad's departure from these QS notes. Christopher Tolkien seems quite certain that these predate the note in GA that places Gil-Galad's (there Fingon's son) departure in 456. Now, one could perhaps speculate that with the final placement of Gil-Galad as Orodreth's son there is an implicit return to the date in the second QS note. But I think such a proposal is highly speculative. If, as I suggest, all three QS notes have Gil-Galad as Felagund's son, then all three would appear to depend on Felagund's movements. In the first proposal, his wife and son depart after his defeat in the Bragollach. In the second, they depart when he leaves on the quest of the Silmaril. In the third, they depart after hearing of his death. I don't see any reason that any of these dates should be particularly favoured if they are in fact Orodreth's wife and son.

So at this point, my vote is still to go with the 456 date and place their departure in this chapter.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I'm fine with either date.

[gondowe]

§138 ... Therefore it was after called by the {Gnomes}[Elves] {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and Delduwath, Deadly Nightshade; ...


§149 ..... and he sent Sauron against them; and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.


I think is better to omit the first Taur-nu-Fuin, and join the paragrahs into the second with the last translation.

Greetings.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Well, Deluwaith (no "d") would be modern Sindarin for Deadly Nightshade. Taur-nu-Fuin would be "Forest under Shadow," or "Mirkwood." I think we must keep the first line's distinction between the two names intact.

[gondowe]

Yes, I agree, I wanted to mean that there are redundant the two paragraphs and only maintain the names in the context of the last one.

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Oh, okay.

[Aiwendil]

I agree that the two statements about Taur-nu-Fuin are redundant, but it's not immediately obvious to me which should be kept and which removed. I suppose that GA being the later text, it should be the second, despite the fact that the QS description is more vivid. Of course, we could combine them, but this risks awkwardness. I think I would advise:

RB-DB-19.1: But Morgoth pursued his people to the death, until few remained; and he took all the forest and the highland of Dorthonion, save the highest and inmost region, and turned it little by little to a place of such dread and lurking evil that even the Orcs would not enter it unless need drove them. {Therefore it was after called by the {Gnomes}[Elves] {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and Deluwaith, Deadly Nightshade; for the trees that grew there after the burning were black and grim, and their roots were tangled, groping in the dark like claws; and those who strayed among them became lost and blind, and were strangled or pursued to madness by phantoms of terror.}

RB-DF-09: <GA {but}But {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, {the Forest under Nightshade}<QS which is Mirkwood, and Deluwaith, Deadly Nightshade>.

Thus we keep both names. An alternative would be to transfer some of the description as well:

RB-DF-09: <GA {but}But {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, {the Forest under Nightshade}<QS which is Mirkwood, and Deluwaith, Deadly Nightshade; for the trees that grew there after the burning were black and grim, and their roots were tangled, groping in the dark like claws; and those who strayed among them became lost and blind, and were strangled or pursued to madness by phantoms of terror>.

[Findegil]

Sorry for the long silence, there were some other businesses at hand.

About Gil-galad's departure: Aiwendil worte:So at this point, my vote is still to go with the 456 date and place their departure in this chapter.That makes sense, and I will not try to arrgument you over to some other date. But the note in GA is unusable since it deals with Fingon taking up the kingship. Anyway we have to move the insert from the place were I had added it.

What we have to do is to from a text that gives a reason why Orodreth send away his wife and son at this time. And the obvious reason at this point is the news of the death of Fingolfin reaching Nargothrond (where Orodreth and his family were at this time).

I supose that we can still take the notes to the QS as to form our text. And for our propose the first of the notes is the best fitting. I supose:§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. And the Orcs growing ever bolder wandered at will far and wide, coming down Sirion in the West and {Celon}[Limhir] in the East, and they encompassed Doriath; and they harried the lands, so that beast and bird fled before them, and silence and desolation spread steadily from the North. Great numbers of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], and of the Dark-elves, they took captive and led to Angband, and made thralls, forcing them to use their skill and knowledge in the service of Morgoth. They laboured without rest in his mines and forges, and torment was their wage.
§149 Yet Morgoth sent also his spies and emissaries among the Dark-elves and the thrall-{Gnomes}[Noldor], and among the free; and they were clad in false forms and deceit was in their speech, and they made lying promises of reward, and with cunning words sought to arouse fear and jealously among the peoples, accusing their kings and chieftains of greed, and of treachery one to another. And because of the curse of the kin-slaying at Alqualondë, these lies were often believed; and indeed as the times darkened they had a measure of truth, for the hearts and minds of the Elves of Beleriand became clouded with despair and fear. RB-DF-08 {And most the Gnomes feared}<LQ1 And ever the {Gnomes}[Noldor] feared most> the treachery of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and strayed only to come back to him again. Therefore if any of the captives escaped in truth, and returned to their own people, they had little welcome, and wandered alone outlawed and desperate.
RB-DB-18b <LQ2; Correction to QS But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he}[Orodreth] sent away his wife{ Meril} to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.>
RB-DF-09 <GA {but}But {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.
About Mirkwood: I wood like to hold more of the discription like in Aiwendils second suggestion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

1. Good date 456. But, it would be better in this place?, What do you think? we have a mention of nargothrond with some momentarily peace

RB-DF-13 <GA and the Orcs did not dare to cross the {Taiglin}[Taeglin] for many years after.> Thus the folk of Haleth dwelt yet for many years in watchful peace in the forest of Brethil; and behind their guard the kingdom of Nargothrond had respite and mustered anew its strength.
RB-DB-18b <LQ2; Correction to QS But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he}[Orodreth] sent away his wife{ Meril} to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, Ereinion, yet an elvenchild.>

I still think what is said above about the eppesë Gil-galad.

2 On Taur-nu-Fuin I agree with Aiwendil's last, but Mirkwood, Forest under Nightshade, or both.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I don't think that a time of relative peace is the time when Orodreth would send away his wifw and son. In all situations that Tolkien envisaged for that journey it was time of stress and realisation of the danger that the father and/or the relam was in not a time of breathtaking and temporary peace.

One possibility abot Gil-galad would be to let his mother-name be Gilgalad = Starlight and his later epesse Gil-galad = Star-of-Radiance given for his shiny armour. But that might be a bit artifical.
If we only name him Ereinion here, the read might be lost who he is. Thus if we decide to take only Gil-galad as his name I would think, we have to insert some phrase like: 'and with her went their son, [Ereinion,] yet an elvenchild, {and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye}[who later was called Gil-galad].>'

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

I would like to find a place when the wife of orodreth and Ereinion live for some more years in Nargothrond than only one. In the case I said above it would be 3 years, in 458. and it would be more credible that after a time of stress, but not the end of the war (as is stated in the same phrase of the correction inserted "But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth") be the best moment to protect his son, it would be securer.

As for the statement "Ereinion, who later was called Gil-galad" is right.

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I'm okay with saying "Ereinion, who was later called Gil-galad," or even just plain "Gil-galad." My reasoning is that a scribe writing this could well have used the more familiar name to get his reader's attention, or at least to make it more interesting. Tolkien himself said that old names were often forgotten and replaced by new ones in Elven histories.

[Galin]

gondowe wrote: I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time, when he is High King, in the later chapter?

From the August 1965 note: 'She called her son Gil-galad' -- so here Rodnor appears to get a 'Mother-name' Gil-galad, although the name is not interpreted.

However in the Shibboleth of Feanor proper (written on publication notes dated 1968) Gil-galad is stated to be an epesse rather, meaning 'Star of Radiance', and was given to him because his helm and mail shone from afar (and etc. p. 347-348). I don't recall any reason within the Shibboleth to think that Gil-galad was a nickname and a Mother-name. It appears to be just an epesse there.

Aran e-Godhellim (also in response to gondowe's post): This is an interesting point. Linguistically, of course,we must make distinction between the two names "Gilgalad" and "Gil-galad." The name Gilgalad (incidentally the form used in the note) is a compound of gil "star" and calad "light," (with the c lenited to a g) and does in fact mean "starlight."

The name Gil-galad, however, is not a compound, but rather a juxtaposition of gil with a completely separate word galad meaning "shining radiance; reflection." Thus we translate this name (following regular Sindarin conventions) "Star-of-Radiance."

Tolkien had published in The Lord of the Rings that Gil-galad, the hyphenated form, meant 'Starlight'. And according to letter 211 (1958), he appears to have thought of Gil-galad 'star-light' with galad showing a mutation from a word in initial c- (footnote with respect to kal).

To try to post all the mentions of this name from Words, Phrases, and Passages might be interesting, but arguably would not be very helpful, as Tolkien can change his mind from one note to the next. Although at one point JRRT translates Gil-galad 'radiant star' from a kalat- 'radiance, radiate' and a root KAL- shine. So we have the word 'radiance' here, but still this is variant enough from the idea of a root ÑAL- 'shine by reflection' and a word *ñalatâ 'radiance, glittering reflection (from jewels, glass or polished metals, or water)' -- both the root ÑAL- and *ñalatâ are found in the later Shibboleth papers, and which meanings go hand in hand with the reason for his epesse given there.

Since Gil-galad was the form finally chosen by Tolkien, we must accept "Star of Radiance" as the accurate translation. Perhaps we could simply omit the two lines about his epessë?

For myself I would rather publication, meaning published by JRRT himself, be given the highest rank to follow; and if so we have Gil-galad 'Starlight' from The Lord of the Rings, or from The Road Goes Ever On, 'Star of bright light'

My opinion on these points anyway.

[Findegil]

The difference between "Star-of-Radiance" and "Starlight" is small in my oppinion. Therefore I called the distinction artefical in my earlier post.

Since we seem to have settle now on Gil-galad as an eppesse, I suggest we take up the not proposed ealier about Ereinion called Gil-galad later.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

From the August 1965 note: 'She called her son Gil-galad' -- so here Rodnor appears to get a 'Mother-name' Gil-galad, although the name is not interpreted.

However in the Shibboleth of Feanor proper (written on publication notes dated 1968) Gil-galad is stated to be an epesse rather, meaning 'Star of Radiance', and was given to him because his helm and mail shone from afar (and etc. p. 347-348). I don't recall any reason within the Shibboleth to think that Gil-galad was a nickname and a Mother-name. It appears to be just an epesse there.


Yes, I mean an epesse, but It could be named by his mother. But it is not important who names him. The important thing I wanted to mark is when we name him Gil-galad, with the explanation.

The difference between "Star-of-Radiance" and "Starlight" is small in my oppinion. Therefore I called the distinction artefical in my earlier post.

Since we seem to have settle now on Gil-galad as an eppesse, I suggest we take up the not proposed ealier about Ereinion called Gil-galad later.
Findegil

I'm ok with the two things.

So I propose keep "Ereinion called Gil-galad later" in this chapter.
And state in the last chapter ( when he is High King after Turgon's death and he is supposedly not yet a child, but young for an elf, and can dress for war) that he was called Gil-galad because of his mail and helm...etc. Named by his mother or not.

What do you think?

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

...Tolkien had published in The Lord of the Rings that Gil-galad, the hyphenated form, meant 'Starlight'. And according to letter 211 (1958), he appears to have thought of Gil-galad 'star-light' with galad showing a mutation from a word in initial c- (footnote with respect to kal).

To try to post all the mentions of this name from Words, Phrases, and Passages might be interesting, but arguably would not be very helpful, as Tolkien can change his mind from one note to the next. Although at one point JRRT translates Gil-galad 'radiant star' from a kalat- 'radiance, radiate' and a root KAL- shine. So we have the word 'radiance' here, but still this is variant enough from the idea of a root ÑAL- 'shine by reflection' and a word *ñalatâ 'radiance, glittering reflection (from jewels, glass or polished metals, or water)' -- both the root ÑAL- and *ñalatâ are found in the later Shibboleth papers, and which meanings go hand in hand with the reason for his epesse given there.



For myself I would rather publication, meaning published by JRRT himself, be given the highest rank to follow; and if so we have Gil-galad 'Starlight' from The Lord of the Rings, or from The Road Goes Ever On, 'Star of bright light'

My opinion on these points anyway.

The form "Star-of-bright-light" is linguistically compatible with "Star-of-radiance," and the two could be considered alternate translations of the Sindarin term. Furthermore, if "Star-of-radiance" equates to "Star-of-bright-light," it is very easy to see how this could be simplified into merely "Star-light."

It is possible Tolkien removed the linguistic barrier he earlier erected between the two forms, but I still argue that the archaic form was ñil-ñalatâ, "star-of-radiance" - which was equated to simple "star-light" - rather than ñil-calad. My reasoning is that the "c" in calad should not have mutated to a g, as it is not compounded fully, but retains its individuality. Also, one would expect "light-of-star" to be calad-ñil. In contrast, the progression ñ<g is found in all positions of mature Sindarin, and ñil-ñalatâ fits perfectly with the mature Sindarin pattern for possessives.

[Galin]

My point (the part that was not simply added information from WPP) is more basic: if one looks at what Tolkien himself published, we find hyphenated Gil-galad translated as Starlight. For myself I would see nothing wrong or inaccurate with the project following this. I realize that over the years Tolkien changed his mind about the etymology of Gil-galad, but I'll put it this way, if you said: since Celeborn the Teler (from Aman) was the latest idea from Tolkien we must accept this history as accurate... I would also have to disagree.

Since I assume the Silmarillion project is not going to delve into the etymology of the name, or its external history, to my mind 'what Tolkien published' seems a simple enough path to follow. In a sense it's not really about whether 'Starlight' or 'Star of Radiance' is used, but this is a small example of a larger textual issue.

And one that I tend to possibly annoy people about :)

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Perhaps Tolkien deliberately gave two (somewhat) conflicting interpretations to indicate that the "Sindarin Loremasters" were themselves unsure of its ultimate derivation.

In any event - and I'm sorry if this wasn't clear before - what I was trying to say in my previous post was that translating "Gil-galad" as "star-light" is fine with me, as long as the linguistic situation 'behind-the-scenes' is understood. I simply like to justify things for my own sake, even if the justification is never printed.

[Aiwendil]

There are plenty of cases where the English translations Tolkien provides for Elvish names are somewhat loose, and plenty of cases in which he gives alternate, slightly different translations. So I don't think that 'starlight' vs. 'star of radiance' is really a matter of tremendous importance.

Moreover, I tend to think that the presence or absence of a hyphen may be more of an issue with the transliteration into the English alphabet than with the actual name. I may have simply forgotten, but is there an equivalent of a hyphen in Tengwar?

In any case, we all seem to agree that 'Gil-galad' and 'star-light' are fine to use.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

No. Hyphens aren't even represented by spaces in the Tengwar, but Tolkien used them to distinguish between different kinds of mutations in the Latin alphabet.

[Aiwendil]

Finally, some comments on the first section.

First, a general comment on the text: There is a lot of jumping back and forth between QS and GA here. This is to be expected, given the textual situation, and I think that for the most part it is skillfully done; but I worry a little that in trying to provide as complete and detailed an account as we can, we may be slicing up Tolkien's prose too indiscriminately. In particular, I think we must be careful not to use additions from other sources merely for the sake of added verbiage, but only when some substantive detail is gained. I will try to point out specific places where this is an issue.

RB-DB-01: This is a good example of my concern above. Here we have cognate sentences in QS and GA:

But because the land was fair and their kingdoms wide, most of the noldor were grown content with things as they were, trusting them to last.

But because the land was grown so fair most of the Eldar were content with matters as they were and slow to begin an assault in which many must surely perish, were it in victory or defeat.

Our text as it stands combines these sentences, but it seems to me that little is gained from this. I would rather choose one or the other. The GA version does further explicate the Eldar's reluctance, so I would choose it:

. . . whether they hasted or delayed. <GA But because the land was grown so fair most of the Eldar were content with matters as they were and slow to begin an assault in which many must surely perish, were it in victory or defeat.> Therefore they were little disposed . . .

§134: "Third battle" should be changed to "fourth battle" here:

This was the {Third}[Fourth] of the great Battles, Dagor {Vreged-sir}, the Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame].

RB-DB-07: I don't think it's necessary to add "now" here:

In the front of that fire came {Golmund}[Glaurung] the golden, the father of dragons, RB-DB-07 <GA in his full might,>

§137: Here we again have similar sentences from both sources combined, posing, I think, the danger of making the sentence long and cumbersome:

The sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assault, and Angrod and {Egnor}[Aegnor] were slain; and [b]RB-DB-08[b] {Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father's death,}<[b]LQ2 Bregolas, son of Bregor, who was lord of the house of Bëor after Boromir his father's death> RB-DB-09[b] <GA and a great part of the warriors of Bëor's folk> {was}were slain beside them.

Also, in combining the sentences, the scope of "was slain beside them" is changed. In QS, this refers specifically to Bregolas, and suggests to me that Bregolas was literally standing with Angrod and Aegnor when he was slain. With the addition from GA, it becomes not just Bregolas but also "a great part of the warriors of Beor's folk", which in my opinion alters the meaning and diminishes the more personal nature of the original statement. I do, however, see the desirability of including the GA statement about the death of many Beorian warriors. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be anything crucial in the QS sentence that is lacking in GA, so I would suggest taking the whole sentence from GA:

§137 {The sons of Finrod bore most heavily the brunt of the assault, and Angrod and Egnor were slain; and Bregolas son of Beor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father's death, was slain beside them.} [b]RB-DB-08<GA In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Agrond and {Egnor}[Aegnor], sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas was slain and a great part of the warriors of Bëor's folk.>

The remainder of §137 seems to me to exhibit similar difficulties. I wonder - would we really lose anything if we were to simply replace the whole paragraph with GA §146?

{§137. . . }<GA In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Agrond and {Egnor}[Aegnor], sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas was slain and a great part of the warriors of Bëor's folk. But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further wesward nigh the passes of Sirion. There King {Inglor}[Finrod] Felagund, hastening from the south, was defeated and was surrounded with small company in the Fen of Serech. But Barahir came thither with the doughtiest of his men, and broke the leaguer of the Orcs and saved the Elven-king. Then {Inglor}[Finrod] gave to Barahir his ring, an heirloom of his house, in token of the oath that he swore unto Barahir to render whatsoever service was asked in hour of need to him or to any of his kin. Then {Inglor}[Finrod] went south to Nargothrond, <QS his deep fortress prepared against the evil day.> >

Here I have only removed the last clause of GA §146, in order to avoid redundancy with the next paragraph in QS, and added the description of Nargothrond back in from QS to avoid an unnaturally short sentence.

§141: There are some missing Celegorn > Celegorm changes here:

<GA Celegor[m] and Curufin held strong forces behind Aglon, and many horsed archers, but they were overthrown, and Celegor[m] and Curufin hardly escaped

RB-DB-24: Here again the merging of QS and GA causes awkward prose. As it stands, the sentence is missing a conjunction; but more importantly, the addition from GA, stating that Morgoth's forces broke through the defences between Gelion and Celon (okay, Duin Daer and Limhir) seems superfluous. The QS text doesn't use the words "broke through" but it clearly describes exactly that occurring. I would leave out the addition from GA:

But they overwhelmed the riders of the folk of Fëanor upon Lothland, for {G1omund}[Glaurung] came thither, and passed through {Maglor}[Maelor]'s Gap, and destroyed all the land between the arms of {Gelion}[Duin Daer].

joined the remnant of his people to the scattered folk of the {hunters}hunter, {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod]

We may have discussed this elsewhere and it slipped my mind, but shouldn't it be Amras who is alive in Beleriand and Amrod who died at Losgar?

§143: Here again some difficulties arise from the mixture of QS and GA. But first of all there is an issue of chronology. The situation appears to be that the assault on Minas Tirith was placed in 457, two years after the Bragollach, in AB 2 and in QS. In GA it was moved first to 456 and then to 455, the same year as the battle, and before the death of Fingolfin. Our text as it stands has the earlier chronology, and this at the very least must be changed.

But, as previously, I'm somewhat inclined to take the bulk of the passage from GA instead of from QS. As far as I can tell, nothing of substance appears here in QS that is absent from GA. The only thing I would perhaps want to salvage from QS is the description of Sauron, which is given at greater length in QS and was revised in LQ. If we take this, then we must remove the redundant description from GA. I would therefore suggest this:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant {(who in Beleriand was named Gorsodh)} led that assault{,}[.]> <LQ Now Sauron, whom the {Noldor}[Sindar] call {Gorthu}[Gorthaur], was the chief servant of Morgoth. {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service.} <LQ He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of ghosts, foul in wisdom><QS , cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.> <GA [A]nd his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took after bitter fighting, and Orodreth the brother of {Inglor}[Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but Celegorm[m] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled Celegor[m] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten.
GA §154 But Sauron took {Minnas-tirith}[Minas Tirith] and made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth, and filled it with evil{; for he was a sorcerer and a master of phantoms and terror}.And the fair isle of {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion] became accursed and was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves; for Sauron fed many of these evil things.>

[Galin]

We may have discussed this elsewhere and it slipped my mind, but shouldn't it be Amras who is alive in Beleriand and Amrod who died at Losgar?


It seems discussed here a bit...

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4479


I'm not a member of this Silmarillion project, but as a fan of Tolkien's nomenclature I'll give this a go: Ambarto becomes the youngest or 'last' child, thus matching up better with Telufinwe 'Last Finwë' (though this was not specifically marked it appears).

Amros (1) Sindarin for Ambarussa. Had Amros (2) Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the name Ambarto] would probably have been [Sindarized] as Amrod, but when [?encountered] at all in Sindarin form it was [?] Amarthan Fated One. S. ambart- > ammarth, amarth fate = Umbarto.' Vinyar Tengwar 41

In the revised scenario where one of the sons dies, in my opinion there is really no one named Amras or Amrod. Or to put it another way, we would now have Amros and Amrod if the latter had lived... but as he didn't we have Amros and Amarthan, as in Tolkien's list published in VT.

Maedros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amros, Amarthan.

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, Galin!

I will have to look into the name issue some more, but as far as I can tell you are correct. My memory is a bit hazy on some of these issues. Glancing at the Name Changes thread, though, I noticed that in fact we had (at my suggestion!) already settled on "Amros" rather than "Amras". I'm less clear on the Amrod vs. Amarthan point, as (alas) I still don't have any of the Vinyar Tengwar (maybe those ought to go on my Hanukkah/Christmas wish-list).

However, my point here was simply that it is Amras/Amros who is alive and well in Beleriand at this point and Amrod/Amarthan who died at Losgar, and not the other way around.

[Galin]

Oops Aiwendil, yes I was essentially agreeing with you regarding the basic question I quoted.

I guess I could have made that clear enough without blathering on so much about the Amrod/Amarthan question, it's just that this question is one I have mused about myself.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:First, a general comment on the text: There is a lot of jumping back and forth between QS and GA here. This is to be expected, given the textual situation, and I think that for the most part it is skilfully done; but I worry a little that in trying to provide as complete and detailed an account as we can, we may be slicing up Tolkien's prose too indiscriminately. In particular, I think we must be careful not to use additions from other sources merely for the sake of added verbiage, but only when some substantive detail is gained. I will try to point out specific places where this is an issue.Agreed. In reading what I did in this chapter I observed my self that I have only technically tried to minimise the amount of editorial interference. That led exactly to the results you describe.

RB-DB-01: Agreed we take your suggestion.

RB-DB-06.5: §134 ... {Third}[Fourth]: Good catch.

RB-DB-07: I thought it might be helpful because the last time we have heard of Glaurung before, we were told that he was not yet full grown. But the addition might be considered superficial.

§137: In this case I do not agree fully to your suggestion. In the first sentence it is better to take up GA fully, but I would still keep the first half sentence from the QS. And in the rest of the paragraph I think we loss a good deal of information by only taking one source.§137 The sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assaultRB-DB-08 {, and Angrod and Egnor were slain; and Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father's death, was slain beside them. In that battle King Inglor Felagund was }. <GA In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Angrod and {Egnor}[Aegnor], sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas RB-DB-09 <LQ2 , son of Bregor, who was lord of the house of Bëor after Boromir his father's death> was slain and a great part of the warriors of Beor's folk. But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further westward nigh the passes of Sirion. There King {Inglor}[Finrod] Felagund, hastening from the south, was defeated> and cut off from his folk and surrounded RB-DB-12 { by the Orcs}<GA with small company in the Fen of Serech> RB-DB-13 <LQ1 betwixt Mithrim and Dorthonion>, and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir son of {Bëor} came up with his men and rescued him, and made a wall of spears about him; and they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped [b]RB-DB-14 {and went south to Nargothrond, his deep fortress prepared against the evil day}; {but}[and] he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need unto Barahir and all his kin and seed, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring RB-DB-15 <GA , an heirloom of his house>. RB-DB-16 <GA Then {Inglor}[Finrod] went south to Nargothrond RB-DB-17 <QS , his deep fortress prepared against the evil day>, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor.>

§141: Changed.

RD-DB-24: Agreed, we take the addition out.

{Damrod and Diriel}[Amros] it will be.

§143: I did not observe the chronology issue. But I am reluctant to skip all that nice interpretation why Tol Sirion was the last fortress attacked in that battle. Also I see some info in QS that is missing in GA. Some examples in detail (No. are take from the text below):
RD-DB-25.5: That Glaurung was shy of the River Sirion at this time is a motive not given eles were. Interesting that he is again in the eastern Battle in the Nirneath.
RD-DB-28: That Sauron was in command of Balrogs in this battle doth strength his position among the host of Morogth.
RD-DB-31.5: Well, this is new. I wish to keep the word 'necromancy'. As fare as I remember this is the only real connection you will get while reading the story of Middle-Earth chronological between Gorthaur of Beleriand and the Necromancer of the Mirkwood in The Hobbit. Even so the change might be called stylistic, I think it is important because we will have to live with The Hobbit as it is. I think connections should be strength if we can.
After RD-DB-32: That the final victory came by assault and not by siege is important, since it makes Orodreth escape much more feasible.
After RD-DB-33: The 'dark cloud of fear' is again a nice tie to the siege of Minas Tirith in The Lord of Rings. I think that should not be lost.
Within RD-DB-34: Orodreth is no longer Finrods brother, but his nephew. But I find 'Steward' the more fitting connection here.
RD-DB-35: Why should we loss this bridge to the future? Readers will remember this easier if we provide them with the information that it has influence in the future narrative. Now you could say that again I propose a stylistic change. But I think that I rather argue against a change with reasons of style. The difference is, that in Annals I would not expect such a style, in a 'Quenta' it is rather classical. And Tolkien is using this often in The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.
Thus I would edit:§143 For RB-DB-25.5[B] {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way, for the time of his full strength was not come; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But [b]RB-DB-26 {at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, }<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with RB-DB-28 {a host of} Balrogs. RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master RB-DB-31.5 <moved from above of necromancy,> of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon Tolsirion.> He took {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] by assault, RB-DB-33 {the tower of {Inglor}[Finrod] upon the isle of Sirion,}<GA after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>
Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RB-DB-07: Adding the 'now' is a small change, and there's no real problem with it; but my inclination is that if Tolkien didn't feel the need to include it, we shouldn't either.

§137: You're right that there are some minor details in QS that would be nice to keep here. I think your suggestion is good, except that I would delete the last clause ('but Barahir returned . . .'), since the next paragraph in QS essentially says the same thing in much greater detail.

RD-DB-25.5: Findegil wrote:
That Glaurung was shy of the River Sirion at this time is a motive not given eles were. Interesting that he is again in the eastern Battle in the Nirneath.


I agree that this is interesting - but actually this raises a point I hadn't noticed before. In GA (and in our version) we have an earlier statement that Glaurung was now 'in his full might'. But the addition from QS here says that 'the time of his full strength was not come' and cites this as the reason he dared not approach the sources of the Sirion. I suppose we could simply remove this reference, even though it robs the explanation of its point to some extent:

For RB-DB-25.5 {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way{, for the time of his full strength was not come}; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs.

RD-DB-28:
That Sauron was in command of Balrogs in this battle doth strength his position among the host of Morogth.

On the other hand, one could argue that in GA, where Sauron apparently doesn't need the aid of Balrogs to capture Tol Sirion, he is more formidable. I suppose the question is whether the detail of the Balrogs was merely omitted in GA or whether Tolkien had decided that no Balrogs were present. Given the changing conception of Balrogs around this time, it seems to me that the latter is at least a strong possibility. So I'm still inclined to omit them here.

Also, it seems redundant to say that Orodreth was the warden of the tower here, since a few sentences later we say again that he held the fortress as the steward of Finrod.

RD-DB-31.5: My concern here is that Tolkien revised the passage in LQ1 and changed 'necromancy' to 'shadows and ghosts'. This may have been a mere stylistic change. It seems to me that in matters of style, we should always take Tolkien's revised version over earlier ones. I agree that making a connection to The Hobbit would be nice, but unless the revised version actually contradicted The Hobbit, I don't think we're justified in changing it.

That the final victory came by assault and not by siege is important, since it makes Orodreth escape much more feasible.


But Orodreth's escape occurs in GA, which is where the word 'besieged' is used. Insofar as there's any difference between the QS and GA versions of the battle, the GA version is later and should be kept. Concerning Orodreth's escape: my reading of GA is that he would not have escaped, because the fortress was besieged, if Celegorm and Curufin had not arrived and come to his aid (much like Barahir helping the Finrod escape from his entrapment earlier).

RB-DB-33: Agreed, the dark cloud of fear is a good detail missing from GA.

RB-DB-34: Agreed.

RB-DB-35: Well, one could argue that the future strife is actually implicitly foretold in the words 'for that time'. However, I see nothing wrong with adding the more explicit statement from QS.

My suggestion for this section, then, is;

§143 For RB-DB-25.5 {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way{, for the time of his full strength was not come}; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But RB-DB-26 {at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, }<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant {(who in Beleriand was named Gorsodh)} led that assault{,}[.]> RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>
GA §154 But Sauron took {Minnas-tirith}[Minas Tirith] and made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth, and filled it with evil{; for he was a sorcerer and a master of phantoms and terror}.And the fair isle of {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion] became accursed and was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves; for Sauron fed many of these evil things.>

[gondowe]

Hello now my humble oppinion.

RB-DB-07 add "now".

RD-DB-31.5 add to GA information, "master of necromancy". So both texts

I think a fortress can be besieged first and then hardly assaulted. So both texts

RD-DB-28 agreed with Aiwendil.

Yes now I see Amros is better, more appropriately and later than Amras. I'm going to change it in my version.

Greetings

[Findegil]

RB-DB-07: Okay, we skip the 'now'.

§137: Agreed.

RB-DB-25.5: Your suggestion is good.

RB-DB-28: Interristing line of thinking. Looking at the beginning of the Battle were QS states two times that Balrogs were involved (see §134 before and behind RD-DB-05) this is not the case in GA §145.
And the same is true for QS §140 were it si said that 'the valour of the Elves and Men of the North, which neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome' which is missing from GA §147.
In GA Balrogs are not mentioned at all in this Battle.
Cosequently this would be again a case of 'By By, Balrogs'!

I agree about Orordreth and teh reduntance of him beeing The Warden of the Tower.

RB-DB-31.5: Okay, okay, yes it would be against our rules. And in addition it si redundant since a master of necromancy is a master of shadows and ghosts.

After RD-DB-32: I don't think that there is realy a diference in the course of the battle in QS and GA at this point at least non that we cold find. In QS Sauron 'took Minastirith by assault' and that is all we get. In GASaurons 'host broke through and besieged ... Minas Trirth ... and this they took after bitter fighting, and Orodreth ... was driven out.' You simply can not drive some one out by a siege. Either the besiged makes an excrusion or you make an assault. From what we have in QS I thought it would be better to make it explicit that the final victory was an assault and not and excrusion of the defenders gone a miss.
Seeing that Orodreth was already driven out, I do not agree that Celegrom and Curufin rescued him like Barahir rescued Fealgund. The words in GA that the brethern 'stemmed the tide for a while' suggest for me rather that they rescued Orodreth during a flight in which he was hoplessly outnumbered and in danger to be overrun simply by a very fast advance of his enemy. I picture the situation of Orodreth like this: He had only a very small host left. The when they drove him out the enemy was directly on his heels. When he would have turned to defend his retreat the enemy would have closed him in. But the enemy was to near to run simply without defence. Thus he had no chance to escape with out help. What the cavalary of Celegrom and Curufin did was defending Orodreth retreat so that he cold lay the necessary distance between his host and the enemy and then they cold outrun the enemy because of the greater fastness of their mounted host.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, Gondowe!

RD-DB-07: Findegil agrees to leave out the "now", but Gondowe votes to add it. Again, it's ultimately not a very important point, but my preference remains to leave it out.

RD-DB-31.5: Again, Findegil agrees to adopt the revised version but Gondowe prefers to add in "master of necromancy". But here I think our principles clearly dictate the former approach.

RD-DB-32: You make a good argument, Findegil, concerning the course of the battle. My thinking was that an assault and a siege are not mutually exclusive - i.e. while the assault was being made, Sauron could still have some forces forming a perimeter around the island, preventing escape. Then when Orodreth was driven from the tower, he would still have been trapped within Sauron's siege-perimeter. This is where I imagined Celegorm and Curufin arriving, cutting through Sauron's lines, and providing Orodreth with a route of escape, while holding off any pursuit. However, re-reading the passage in GA I think that your version fits better.

Still, if (as we agree) the story in GA makes sense in itself and is essentially the same as the story in QS, why do we need to change the passage at all? In other words, if in the GA version Sauron already takes the fortress by assault (even if that particular word is not used), why do we need to add the statement that he took it by assault from QS?

[Findegil]

RD-DB-32:
Aiwendil wrote:Still, if (as we agree) the story in GA makes sense in itself and is essentially the same as the story in QS, why do we need to change the passage at all? In other words, if in the GA version Sauron already takes the fortress by assault (even if that particular word is not used), why do we need to add the statement that he took it by assault from QS?To transport the picture in the fullest version we can get? I would say neither GA nor QS gives a discription that is sufficient to get the understanding we have now. Both do not contradict what we know, but they both helped us understand what happend. I think that in this case it fits the overall goal of the project to mix both accounts.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

To transport the picture in the fullest version we can get?

But if, as we agree, the fact that the tower was taken by assault is already inherent in GA, then I don't see how adding the sentence from QS makes the account any fuller.

If you really feel that adding the word "assault" from QS is critical, though, perhaps we could make the slightly smaller change:

RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took <QS by assault> after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it;

Some further comments, up to §149:

§144: Where QS has "And Morgoth came", GA has "Then Morgoth came", beginning a new paragraph. I would follow GA in this, both because it is later and because we have taken the fuller account of Fingolfin's challenge that immediately precedes it in GA.

. . . For I would see thy craven face.'
Then Morgoth came.> That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold

We must guard against the danger of redundancy when we combine material from QS and GA. A small example is found here. In QS, when Fingolfin makes his challenge, he sounds his "horn"; in GA, it is here called a "silver horn". A few sentences later, QS mentions "the shrill music of the silver horn of Fingolfin". So in each text, the detail that the horn is silver occurs only once; however, since we take the first part of the paragraph from GA and the second part from QS, the detail shows up twice in our version as it stands, which seems superfluous. So I would remove the word "silver" at one of the two instances:

and sounding a challenge upon his {silver} horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat

RB-DF-04: It seems to me that adding "withstood him" from GA is disruptive to the prose, since it separates the "it" (in "gleaming[\u] beneath it like a star") from its antecedent. I don't think the addition is valuable enough to warrant that kind of disruption (clearly, he withstands Morgoth in QS already), so I would leave it out.

§146: For a change, let me be the one to suggest an addition from to the text to provide more vivid detail! Here our text as it stands is straight from QS, but I would add something from GA:

. . . Yet {with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot} <GA {I}[u]in his last throe Fingolfin pinned the foot of his enemy to the earth> with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Here GA offers a detail lacking in QS (also, this more precise description obviates the erroneous impression I have seen people take from the passage, that Morgoth's foot was actually severed).

§147: In taking this section from QS, we miss the statement in GA that there was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought news of Fingolfin's fall, because many of the people were of Fingolfin's house. However, I fear it would be bad prose to say have "There was lamentation in Gondolin when . . ." followed, just a few sentences later, by "There was lamentation in Hithlum when . . .". Perhaps, then, we could justify combining the sentences, with some slight editorial work:

. . . There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known, and in Gondolin also <GA, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor . . .

[Findegil]

RB-DB-32: Yes, my feeling that "assault" is a justified clarification. And your proposed sentence works well for me.

§144:
I agree to the change form "And Morgoth came." to "Then Morgoth came." including a new §.

This might be a small matter, but I would rather keep the "silver" at the first place and delet it in the other one. In the first place it corrosponds very nice to the "brazen gate".

RB-DF-04: I agree. We will eleiminate that addition.

§146 / RB-DF-04.5: That is a nice addition. I agreeto take it.

§147 / RB-DF-07.5: I agree that we should mention Gondolin here. But I think we should make the addition a bit diffrent:There was lamentation in HithlumRB-DF-07.5 and Gondolin when the fall of Fingolfin became known; <GA , for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor ...>

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

After we skipt the Balrogs from the host of Sauron that toke Tol Sirion, what do we do with the Balrogs in the rest of the battle?

In my oppinion, we should keep them. It seems more then logical that Balrogs were the leaders of Morgoth' hosts. In the east the force was led by Glaurung. But who was the leader in the west? Not Sauron, because the Western host still held Fingolfin pinned in the Ered Wethrin while Sauron took Tol Sirion. I think that Gothmog is the natrual choice. And thus 'neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome{,} Hithlum'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

My first post, please be nice ;-)


We must guard against the danger of redundancy when we combine material from QS and GA. A small example is found here. In QS, when Fingolfin makes his challenge, he sounds his "horn"; in GA, it is here called a "silver horn". A few sentences later, QS mentions "the shrill music of the silver horn of Fingolfin". So in each text, the detail that the horn is silver occurs only once; however, since we take the first part of the paragraph from GA and the second part from QS, the detail shows up twice in our version as it stands, which seems superfluous. So I would remove the word "silver" at one of the two instances:

and sounding a challenge upon his {silver} horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat


Wouldn't it be more sensible to remove the other instance of "silver":

But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of the {silver} horn of Fingolfin and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband

First, so we can keep the later source more intact; second, because the scene describes how Morgoth and his host perceive Fingolfins challenge "from below": They hear the horn's "shrill music", they cannot see that it is "silver", while in the first occurrence of the horn, Fingolfin's perspective is described, where the visual part would be to the fore.

RB-DF-04: It seems to me that adding "withstood him" from GA is disruptive to the prose, since it separates the "it" (in "gleaming[\u] beneath it like a star") from its antecedent. I don't think the addition is valuable enough to warrant that kind of disruption (clearly, he withstands Morgoth in QS already), so I would leave it out.

I agree with this, but find it sad that by completely following the QS here we also lose the imagery of

he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree"

and the (maybe a bit obvious) information that Morgoth's shield is "black". How about this:

And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, <GA like a storm above a lonely tree,> iron-crowned, and his vast <GA black> shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud.

Also, is the information that

the cries of Morgoth echoed in the north-lands

insignificant or redundant enough to leave it out? How does

seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish [U]that <QS echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

sound? Not very good, eh?

§147: In taking this section from QS, we miss the statement in GA that there was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought news of Fingolfin's fall, because many of the people were of Fingolfin's house. However, I fear it would be bad prose to say have "There was lamentation in Gondolin when . . ." followed, just a few sentences later, by "There was lamentation in Hithlum when . . .". Perhaps, then, we could justify combining the sentences, with some slight editorial work:

. . . There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known, and in Gondolin also <GA, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor . . .

Stylistically, that's not very nice, as the information about the "lamentation in Gondolin" is clearly given at this point of the Grey Annals because "Thorondor brought the tidings", just as the information about the "lamentation in Hithlum" in QS serves as an introduction to Fingon being the new High-king.

If both statements should be combined, I would rather have


There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house; and <QS in Hithlum > also; but Fingon...

[QUOTE]
Of course, that's a quite ambiguous sentence. Maybe it would be best to keep the two statements separate and alter the second slightly after the description of Fingon's feelings in QS (is that allowed?):
[QUOTE]
There was lamentation in Gondolin ... In Hithlum also, there was great sorrow

[Findegil]

Welcome to this part of the downs Ekimeniso!

We try to be nice to anybody who takes part in our discussion. We much to seldom have guests or new participants.

RB-DF-03.5: Two times 'silver' in §144:
I suggested them same, but your reasons are even more confincing them mine.

RB-DF-04b: The image of the lonley tree in the storm and the blackness of the shield:
About the black shield: to name the shield black when in the next moment it is discribed as 'sable unblazoned' is redundant enough. The slight diffrence does not warrant a change.
But the image of the lonley tree is diffrent. I am not confinced that it is necessary, but I will give it a try to incooperate it a bit more fluent (see below).

RB-DF-04.5: the eoching cries in the northland:
I agree that this might be helpfull to hold, since it makes it more clear were Morogoths host fell upon their faces.

So we would get:Then Morgoth came.> That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might RB-DF-02 {is}<LQ1 was> greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he RB-DF-03 {knows}<LQ1 knew> fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of the RB-DF-03.5{silver} horn of Fingolfin and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned. RB-DF-04b<GA But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree>, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a{ storm} cloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, and it glittered like ice, cold and grey and deadly. Then Morgoth hurled aloft as a mace Grond, the hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth RB-DF-04.2 {with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry} <GA seven times with his sword; and the cries> of anguish that Morgoth gave <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

RB-DF-07.5: The lamentation in Gondolin:
Probably we should bring that in much ealier. Turgon learned about tthe death of Fingolfin when Thorondor brought the body to the Echoriad, but Fingon learned the same from the return of Rochalor without rider I would guess. So what about this:... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.> Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. ...
Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

RB-DF-04b: The image of the lonley tree in the storm and the blackness of the shield:
About the black shield: to name the shield black when in the next moment it is discribed as 'sable unblazoned' is redundant enough. The slight diffrence does not warrant a change.

I actually agree.
But the image of the lonley tree is diffrent. I am not confinced that it is necessary, but I will give it a try to incooperate it a bit more fluent (see below).


and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned. RB-DF-04b<GA But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree>, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a{ storm} cloud.

That's better than my suggestion, I think, but still a bit dodgy, as the contrasting description of the two contrahents going from Morgoth to Fingolfin is now repeated and (imho) thus loses some of its power (and there is also the redundancy of "tower" and "towered").

Maybe my English skills are too limited to formulate a better amalgam of the two sources in this case, but I tried this:

and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a <GAstorm> cloud <GA above a lonely tree>.

What do you think? Of course we're mixing the metaphors quite loosely here. And maybe there are just too many images - the tower, the storm over the tree, the cloud over the star - and the one from the GA has to go. I'm not sure.
RB-DF-07.5: The lamentation in Gondolin:


Probably we should bring that in much ealier. Turgon learned about tthe death of Fingolfin when Thorondor brought the body to the Echoriad, but Fingon learned the same from the return of Rochalor without rider I would guess. So what about this:


... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.>

Of course, that's more or less where the first "lamentation" stood in GA - after the building of the cairn. But then we're back at the point were Aiwendil suggested to avoid the recurrence of "there was lamentation"; maybe this can't be avoided. Logically, it would make sense to have Thorondor bring the tidings and the Gondothlim mourning before Turgon can come and build the cairn - am I having a déjà vu or was there some discussion somewhere on this forum about this already? Anyway, thus:


... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin. <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.> [And] Turgon coming built a high cairn over {him} Fingolfin. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin.

Naturally, the course of events is debatable and I'm also fine with your way.

Greetings

[Ekimeniso]

One quick question:

RB-DF-09 <GA {but}But {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion.

So we lose
GA $ 158. Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands, ...
Why? I'm sorry if I'm asking the obvious...

Greetings

[Findegil]

RB-DF-04b:That's better than my suggestion, I think, but still a bit dodgy, as the contrasting description of the two contrahents going from Morgoth to Fingolfin is now repeated and (imho) thus loses some of its power (and there is also the redundancy of "tower" and "towered").I marked that as well. But your mixed sentence is in my veiw also overloaded with metaphorical images. Probably Aiwendil is right and in the ende we have to choose one or the other image here.

RB-DF-07.5:
I don't think we had the suggestion to put in the lamentation in Gondolin at the point Fingolfin is buried before. I like your suggestion to add it even before the building of the cairn. But I would leave Turgons action as in subordinate clause and hold then 'him'. Also we might chnage Gondolin in one place, becuase other wise we get a bad style by our emendation. Either we use 'Tumladen' in the first place or 'in the City' in the second. I prefer 'Tumladen' in the first, because 'in the city' would only move the problem to a double 'city':... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of {Gondolin}Tumladen. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. ...RB-DF-09:
I did not consider to take up the full sentence when I suggested the addition (don't ask me why), but I see that it will work better with that clause:... Therefore if any of the captives escaped in truth, and returned to their own people, they had little welcome, and wandered alone outlawed and desperate.
RB-DB-18b <LQ2; Correction to QS But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, {he}[Orodreth] sent away his wife{ Meril} to her own folk in {Eglorest}[Eglarest], and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.>
RB-DF-09 <GA §158 Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands, but {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. ...Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

I agree on all points :)

RB-DF-04b:I marked that as well. But your mixed sentence is in my veiw also overloaded with metaphorical images. Probably Aiwendil is right and in the ende we have to choose one or the other image here.

RB-DF-07.5:
I don't think we had the suggestion to put in the lamentation in Gondolin at the point Fingolfin is buried before. I like your suggestion to add it even before the building of the cairn. But I would leave Turgons action as in subordinate clause and hold then 'him'. Also we might chnage Gondolin in one place, becuase other wise we get a bad style by our emendation. Either we use 'Tumladen' in the first place or 'in the City' in the second. I prefer 'Tumladen' in the first, because 'in the city' would only move the problem to a double 'city':RB-DF-09:
I did not consider to take up the full sentence when I suggested the addition (don't ask me why), but I see that it will work better with that clause:Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

Part three of the text:
[QUOTE]
§172 ... but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them far across the sands of Fauglith RB-SE-04 <GA , {pursued}pursuing them by the horsed archers even to the Iron Mountains.>.

1. There is the redundancy of pursued...pursuing
2. "pursuing them by..." sounds ungrammatical to me
3. Should be Anfauglith

Maybe:

§172 ... but Fingon drove them in the end with heavy slaughter from the land, and pursued them <GA {by} with the horsed archers> far across the sands of Anfauglith <GA even to the Iron Mountains.>.

[Findegil]

RB-SE-04:
I agree to your suggestion how to deal with the redundancy. But I am not sure that we could not still use 'Fauglith'. The full name was Dor-na-Fauglith 'Land of the Gasping Dust'. Anfauglith would then be 'The Gasping Dust' and Fauglith simply 'Gasping Dust'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

RB-SE-04:
I agree to your suggestion how to deal with the redundancy. But I am not sure that we could not still use 'Fauglith'. The full name was Dor-na-Fauglith 'Land of the Gasping Dust'. Anfauglith would then be 'The Gasping Dust' and Fauglith simply 'Gasping Dust'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

I have to say I find the whole matter of Fauglith, Anfauglith/Dor-na-Fauglith, Dor-no-Fauglith, Dor-nu-Fauglith confusing. You're right of course.

But something different: how are the changes of the course of events in the Shibboleth generally treated? In this case Fingon's kingship of the Noldor...

[Findegil]

Kingship of Fingon: I do not think that we must make a change for that. The sentence does allow the kingship that Fingon took up to be only that of the Noldor in Hithlum. Other wise we could simply skip 'of the Noldor', if that is thought to be better.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

One thing:

I don't know if this was discussed in another thread, but although the professor himself wrote in LQ that Thorondor was living in Crissaegrin, for some reason (I suppose due to the allusion in UT, earlier than the revision of the QS) I had taken the decision of place the home of Eagles in Thangorodrim and from the dead of Fingolfin tell that the eagles started living in Crissaegrin.

It would be easier for Thorondor and more coherent, that came from Thangorodrim than Crissaegrin, much further.

Perhaps the professor careless forgot it, when revising QS.

What do you think?

[Ekimeniso]

Kingship of Fingon: I do not think that we must make a change for that. The sentence does allow the kingship that Fingon took up to be only that of the Noldor in Hithlum. Other wise we could simply skip 'of the Noldor', if that is thought to be better.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Okay, I just wondered about the general treatment of the Shibboleth. In the Darkening of Valinor thread direct quotes from the Shibboleth were inserted, while the general change of the course of events (Míriels fea only leaves her body after Feanor is fully grown; Finwe only asks Manwe for a solution after he's fallen in love with Indis) was not adapted (I think it could be done). OTOH as far as I understand it the death of Amras in the burning of the ships WILL be included, right? Of course this doesn't really belong to this thread. Was this discussed somewhere before, or is there a rule of thump as to where the dividing line is between material that is treated as part of the canon and material that will not be considered? For example, if we accept that there was no High King after the fall of Fingolfin, why not insert the direct quote?

[Aiwendil]

RB-DF-03.5: Ekimeniso's argument about which 'silver' to retain is persuasive, so let's keep the first 'silver' and remove the second.

RB-DF-04: Actually, I don't think that the mixed metaphor (tower vs. storm) in itself is a problem, since Tolkien himself uses both of these images in QS. However, I don't think that adding the detail of Fingolfin as a lonely tree to the storm-metaphor is adequate justification for editing Tolkien's prose on so fine a level. I say pick either the QS or GA version of the passage and use that - and my inclination is to use QS since it is the fuller account and the base text for the sentences immediately before and after.

RB-DF-04.5: I have no problem with adding the detail of the echo from GA. Findegil proposes:

and he wounded Morgoth RB-DF-04.2 {with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry} <GA seven times with his sword; and the cries> of anguish that Morgoth gave <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

This seems to me to require too much verbal contortion; I would prefer Ekimeniso's:

and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish that <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

RB-DF-07.5: In my opinion, the repetition in such a short space of "There was lamentation in . . . " is unacceptable.


RB-DF-09: In QS, the flight of the Beorians and the situation of Barahir and his twelve companions is told (QS §138-139) just after the rescue of Felagund, significantly before the account of Fingolfin's death. In GA, the narrative turns away from Barahir after the rescue of Felagund and only comes back to him and his people after telling of Fingolfin's death (in GA §158-159). The solution adopted in Findegil's text is to retain QS §138 where it stands, remove §139, and then insert GA §158-159 after the death of Fingolfin. This seems to me to be problematic. Even though we have deleted QS §139, there is still redundancy between §138 and GA §158-159; the flight of most of Barahir's people and the transformation of the highland forest into the dreadful Taur-nu-Fuin are both repeated. I think we should pick one place or the other and put all the material about Barahir there - so either remove QS §138-139 or remove GA §158-159, and make any appropriate additions to the retained version from the removed version.

I would propose to remove QS §138-139 and use GA §158-159 after the death of Fingolfin:

RB-DF-09 <GA §158 Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the north-lands , but {[struck out: still]} Barahir would not retreat and defended still the remant of his land and folk in Dorthonion. But Morgoth hunted down all that there remained of Elves or Men, and he sent Sauron against them; {and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.} <QS and he took all the forest and the highland of Dorthonion, save the highest and inmost region, and turned it little by little to a place of such dread and lurking evil that even the Orcs would not enter it unless need drove them. Therefore it was called by the [Noldor] [Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and [Deluwaith], Deadly Nightshade; for the trees that grew there after the burning were black and grim, and their roots were tangled, groping in the dark like claws; and those who strayed among them became lost and blind, and were strangled or pursued to madness by phantoms of terror.>
§159 At last so desperate was the case of Barahir that Emeldir the Manhearted his wife ... And some were there received into Haleth's folk, and some passed on to {Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] and the people of {Galion}[Galdor] Hador's son. ... For these were slain one by one, or fled, until at last only Barahir and Beren his son, and Baragund and Belegund sons of Bregolas, were left, and with them {[eight >]} nine desperate men whose names were long remembered in song: Dagnir and Ragnor, Radhruin and Dairuin and Gildor, Urthel and Arthad and Hathaldir, and Gorlim Unhappy. ... No help came to them and they> <QS were hunted like wild beasts, and Morgoth sent many wolves against them; and they retreated to the barren highland above the forest, and wandered among the tarns and rocky moors of that region, furthest from the spies and spells of Morgoth. Their bed was the heather and their roof the cloudy sky.>


Here I have replaced the passages concerning Taur-nu-Fuin and the plight of the hunted outlaws in GA with the fuller corresponding passages from QS.

[Findegil]

RB-DF-03.5: Agreed.

RB-DF-04: Well, metaphors are a stylistic devices, therefor this change is one for style and not for any substance.

RB-DF-04.2: Agreed.

RB-DF-07.5: Okay, so what about this:... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of {Gondolin}Tumladen. RB-DF-07.5 <GA {There was lamentation}[Great was the sorrow] in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. ...RB-DF-09: Aiwendils suggestion looks good to me.

About The Shibboleth and how we deal with it:
I do not remember that we ever discussed some of the matters that Ekimeniso brought up. When ever we made use of that work, we used the ideas given their (like the death of Amras in the burning ship). 'The rule of thump' (is this really an english proverb? it sounds very de{utssch-e}nglish to me) is rule 2.b):2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.But in the case of the high Kingship or the time of Míriels death or the time of the judgement of the Valar about Finwe and Míriel we have no text of higher priority. But we had the same in the case of Myths Transformed were it was decided that MT was a (for us) unworkable plan of reconstruction. I am not completly convinced for MT and do not believe in this at all for The Shibboleth. So in the end we might have to go back to DoV and rework that chapter in light of what The Shibboleth sayes.
For the case of the high-kingship i would suggest:§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship RB-DF-07.2{of the Noldor}[in Hithlum], and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. <SH{The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.} The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest. At that time Finrod prefixed the name of his father following the model of Fingofin so that he became know as Finarfin.> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, ...

About Thorondor living in on Thangorodrim:
I think that this story was rejected by JRR Tolkien. But I have to look that up.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

Thorondor on Thangorodrim:
The former discussion on this point was very brief but it took place in this the thread about Tuor and his coming to Gondolin (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4461). The conclusion was to keep the dwelling on Thangorodrim but to be ambigiuse about time and reason for the remove to Crisseagrim.
This decission was take especilly because of the passage after the fall of Fingolfin in LQS, were Thorondor comes from Crisseagrim.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RB-DF-07.5: Hmm, I think some of my previous post got lost somehow - I meant to propose this emendation:

Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made. <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house. Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor>, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North.

By taking more of the passage from GA, this avoids editorial additions and redundancy while not, in my opinion, omitting any important details. Okay, so it doesn't literally include the detail that there was lamentation in Hithlum, but it does single out Fingon's particular sorrow, which actually is a detail we lose otherwise.

Or we could take the same approach but move the sentence about Gondolin to the point Findegil suggests. I think that rather than changing 'Gondolin' to 'Tumladen', however, we could just remove the second 'Gondolin':


And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin. <GA There was lamentation {in Gondolin}there when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him.
Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.

<GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor>, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North.

About the Shibboleth: I am still inclined to think that the changes to the sequence of events around Miriel's death and Finwe's remarriage fall under 2b, proposed changes that would require too much tampering for us to implement. But that discussion should really wait until we revisit DoV. The other relevant principle for some points in the late writings is 5:

Information in sources of lower level priority is to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in the source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.

It still seems to me quite likely that some of the apparent deviations in the late writings are simply due to forgetfulness, rather than a deliberate changing of the story. Principles 2 and 5 don't dictate exactly where we draw the line between what to take up and what to reject, but they do frame the debate that must occur on each specific point.

is this really an english proverb?

I think there was a typo in Ekimeniso's post; the proverb is 'rule of thumb'. I think the German equivalent is 'Faustregel'.

[Findegil]

RB-DF-07.5: 'There was lamentation there when ...' is not very good. I think we can simply skip the second 'there'. Otherwise I like your second suggestion.

About the Shibboleth: It seems to be a given that we will have to discuss this issue when we came agian to DoV. But for the moment we only have to make up our mind about the case of the high-kingship of the Noldor. And in my oppinion the change in Fingolfins behavior during the march is so significant that it can not be an oversight. Also it is connected to the core issue of the essay: the sindarin names of the decendence of Finwe.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

I think there was a typo in Ekimeniso's post; the proverb is 'rule of thumb'. I think the German equivalent is 'Faustregel'.

yeah, a typo ;) . I agree with all the proposed changes/updates.

[Findegil]

'rule of thumb': Okay, what tricked me here was, that at least in my idiom of German their exists beside "Faustregel" also "Daumenregel", with slightly but sigificant diffrences. While a "Faustregel" is a reliable and approved approximation that does shorten the calculation significantly, a "Daumenregel" is just the utterance of the feeling someone has on the subject under investigation. So while a "Faustregel might be a bit beside the real result it does point into the right direction for sure, in contrast a "Daumenregel" might be complitly of track.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

Okay, I have gone through this thread to see were we are. As fare as I can say Aiwendil has commented to the Text up to §149. But I am not quite sure where he ended with his comments. The first possible place is just before RB-DF-10.

What is left as open point in the rest of the discussion is from my point of view:
RB-DF-07.5: What about this to avoid the double Gondolin:And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley{ of Gondolin}. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him.and
RB-DF-07 and RB-DF-07.7: I have given the number 07.7 to the proposed addition about the prefexion of Arfin to Finarfin:§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor[ in Hithlum]> {There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor}, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. RB-DF-07.7 <Shibboleth {The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth.} The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, {Maedros}[Maedron] son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest. At that time Finrod prefixed the name of his father following the model of Fingofin so that he became know as Finarfin.> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. ...

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

As in my version, the text of the Names of the descendants of Finwë is included as a part of the "whole" appendix of the Tongues, the explanation of the Arfin name can be read there. But it looks like well as you state here.

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

RB-DF-07.5: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

RB-DF-07.7: As it stands, this addition is confusing - it sounds as if Finrod is adding a prefix to his own name rather than that of his father. Moreover, the linguistic note feels rather out of place in the midst of the narrative. If we must include this point here, perhaps a footnote quoting the 'Shibboleth' more directly would be better.

I don't recall at the moment whether I had reviewed the changes past RB-DF-10; I'll see if I have any notes on them lying around.

[Findegil]

Nice to read a pot from you Aiwendil!

RB-DF-07.7: I think we might skip that addition completly and add a direct qoute from the Shibboleth in th chapter 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I'm glad to have finally made some time to get back into things here.

I agree about skipping RB-DF-07.7 here and adding the quote to 'Of Eldamar'.

A few more comments for now:

RB-DF-11: In the latest conception, 'Haladin' refers not to the folk of Brethil in general but only to the family of Haleth, so this should be:

but RB-DF-11 {Haleth}[Halmir Lord of the Halethrim] sent swift word to Thingol

RB-DF-12, -13: I think we can stick to GA a bit more in the interest of stylistic unity:

And Thingol sent Beleg the bowman, chief of his march-wardens, to his aid with many archers RB-DF-12 <GA and great strength of the Eglath armed with axes; and issuing from the deeps of the forest they took an Orc-legion at unawares and destroyed it. Thus for a while the black tide out of the North was stemmed in that region and the Orcs did not dare to cross the {Taiglin}[Taeglin] for many years after.> Thus the folk of Haleth dwelt yet for many years in watchful peace in the forest of Brethil; and behind their guard the kingdom of Nargothrond had respite and mustered anew its strength.

Note that QS mentions archers and GA mentions axes; one doesn't quite know whether this is simply an alternative description or whether it means that Tolkien changed his mind about how Beleg's company was equipped. But as Beleg was obviously a bowman, it makes sense that there would be other archers in the company as well, so I think we can let both descriptors stand.

RB-DF-14: An account of Hurin and Huor in Gondolin also, of course, appears in our version of the 'Narn'. I looked back at the Narn thread to remind myself if we had discussed this issue there, but it seem that at the time we simply included the account in the Narn without deciding what to do in 'The Ruin of Beleriand' (if I'm missing someplace where we discussed this further, please let me know).

On one level, I have to say I'm tempted to remove the account completely from this chapter since it seems redundant with the Narn. The problem with this, however, is that the Narn leaves out the main battle with the Orcs and its context in post-Bragollach Beleriand, focusing exclusively on Hurin and Huor.

At the very least, I think we should stick entirely to QS here, since material introduced from GA is quite blatantly redundant with the Narn (which in this section is closely based on GA).

§172: Again here, I am inclined to stick more closely to GA, as it seems to me that the additions from QS add only verbiage and not substance. It even seems to me that the statement in QS that 'the Orcs won many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim' may contradict GA. In QS, only 'some' Orcs penetrated the mountains as far as Mithrim, and Fingon was able to drive them off himself; in GA, they penetrate the mountains in sufficient numbers that Fingon is 'outnumbered' and the Orcs are only driven off with the aid of Cirdan. I would take this whole paragraph from GA with no additions from QS.

[Findegil]

RB-DF-11: Very good catch. Agreed.

RB-DF-12; -13: Your editing is good. Agreed.

RB-DF-14: This was discussed under the labels NA-EX-05 and NA-TI-02b in the thread Narn I Chîn Húrin1: Túrins Fostering (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11788) on page 1. My Posting #33 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=587536&postcount=33) gives a good overview.
I agree that the story now as our texts stand are told twice in diffrent words. I agree and tried to do as fare as possible that we should use only the text of QS to avoid redundant wording. If it is undisiered all together to have the story told twice I would rather skip here the passage dealing with Húrin and Hour alltogether, and not cut anything out of our Narn version. But if we do so it would be hard to find a reason for Turgon being mentioned here at all. I would rather let the story stand here told very briefly and then in an more ampel scale in the Narn.

§172: I have to read both accounts again before further comments, but I think my interpretation was based on the view that there is diffrence between Hithlum and Mithrim. I will come back to this point.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello fellows,

as for the change Haladin for Halethrim, I had seen it but, what can we do with the previous occurrences of Haladin in the Chapter 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand, f.e. named by Bëor, even when Haleth had not born.
Perhaps it is a change not developed by the professor, or you think its an internal change?

Greetings.

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, gondowe!

You make a good point that without 'Haladin' we have no general word to refer to the second kindred of the Edain prior to the chieftanship of Haleth. But really we are only dealing with two or three mentions of them before Haleth appears, and I think it would be a shame to let that prevent us from taking up the change. At worst, I expect we could refer to the people 'who later were called the Halethrim', or something along those lines.

RB-DF-14: I agree completely that the version in the Narn should remain there, regardless of what we do here.

But I'm still torn as to what to do here. I have to say, I'm somewhat inclined to reduce the whole episode here to a brief mention and say 'as is after told'. This would be much as in QS, the destruction of Barahir's band is mentioned in a single sentence in the present chapter and then the full story is told in 'Of Beren and Luthien'. It seems rather undesirable to me to tell the same story twice, even if it is in different words. But, like I said, I need to give it a little bit more thought.

[Aiwendil]

Comments for the remainder of the chapter:

RB-SM-01: It seems to me that by adding this sentence from GA, we end up saying twice that the swarthy men came into Beleriand. I do see that the GA passage gives a more detailed picture of their movements and also adds the detail that the Dwarves had told Maedhros of their approach, but I think these could be worked in without the redundancy:

§150 . . . And it is said that at this time the Swarthy Men came first {into Beleriand;} <GAout of Eriador, and passing north about the Eryd Luin entered into Lothlann. Their coming was not wholly unlookedfor, since the Dwarves had warned {Maidros}[Maeðros] that hosts of Men out of the further East were journeying towards Beleriand.> [A]nd some were already secretly under the dominion of Morgoth, and came at his call; but not all . . .

RB-SM-05: There is another slight redundancy here in that QS has already stated that some of the Swarthy Men were already in league with Morgoth. But here it is not so easy to simply take the extra details from GA and add them to the passage in QS, since the GA statement refers to the folk of Bor and Ulfang, who are not introduced in QS until the following paragraph. I suppose the redundancy is slight enough that we might let it stand. Another solution might be to follow GA version I and put the whole statement in the footnote instead of just the second half of it as in version II.

RB-SM-06: In QS, the statement that the people of Haleth 'dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion' explains their not being involved in the northern war initially. With our change here, it instead (purportedly) explains why they had little contact with the Easterlings. The thing is, it really doesn't explain that at all, since Brethil is not really any further south than the area in eastern Beleriand where the Easterlings settled. We could probably get away with just changing 'southward' to 'westward'. Also, I think that since this now forms the end of the section instead of leading into the account of the battle in Brethil, we should combine it with the previous sentence:

There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed{.}[;] {Yet}and RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> {remained still free; for they had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the {southward}[eastward] in the woods by Sirion.

[Findegil]

At long last I have found the time answer:

§172: I agree that "winning the passes" is the same as "coming into Hithlum" and that therefore it is clear that after "the Orcs won many passes" the "Battle was joined at the very plains of Hithlum", but this redundance is already there in the text of the QS. In QS it is said, that "The Orcs won
many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim".What gives me pause is the "even" in this sentence. For me at least it suggests a further advance. This also agrees to my interpretation of the geography in which the plains of Hithlum reach fare to the north while Mithrim is the area directly around the lake.
But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.

{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.

RB-SM-01: Agreed. Very elegant solution.

RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.

RB-SM-06: I see your point. And I think you meant {southward}[westward]. But I am not absoulutley happy with that solution.
For one the Easterlings settled in Lothlan and in the Lands south of Maedrons March. Both seemd to be more northern teretories. But I agree that thier is some doubt about it since Ulfang follwed Caranthir, how dwelt upon Amon Ered fare in the south.
For two Hithlum is even further west then Brethil and for the folk of Hador some other reason is mentioned.
The reason that is hinted at by the sentence is that the Halethrim were not in strong alliance with an elvish lord activley searching communication with the Feanorians. The Halethrim had contact to Thingol and Fealgund. Both not very freindly with Maedron of Caranthir. Thus their was no meeting to be expacted between elvish lords of southern Beleriand (Thingol and Felagund) with the Feanorians in which manish followers (Halethrim and Easterlings) would meet as well.
Don't ask me how we should put that into our text. I have to think about that further.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

RB-SM-06: Maybe we should not do all the thinking for our readers and let them make up their mind by themself. What about this:§152 There was small love between the Three Houses and the Swarthy Men; and they met seldom. For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand; but the people of Hador were shut in Hithlum, and Bëor's house was well nigh destroyed. Yet RB-SM-06 {Haleth and his men}<LQ2 the People of Haleth> remained still free; for they{ had been at first untouched by the northern war, since they} dwelt to the southward in the woods by Sirion.As reason why the Dúnedain and the Easterlings did not met the passage gives 'For the newcomers abode long in East Beleriand;' the rest is then a short resumee of the state of affairs of the Dúnedain. Implicit it is clear that all remaining Dúnedain 'dwelt to the westward' which is what is needed for not meeting with the Easterlings.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.

I think you're right - though I had failed to notice it before, GA does seem to say that besides the forces attacking Barad Eithel from the east, there was another army that 'came down from the north' and fought with Fingon in Hithlum. So we're agreed that we'll use GA for this section.

{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.


It may actually be slightly trickier to deal with than that - Tolkien calls the third house the 'folk of Marach' when they first enter Beleriand, but (unless I'm mistaken) we don't have the name of any leaders of the Halethrim before the Orc-raid. But still, I think this is a very minor problem and one we can deal with when we come to it.

RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.

Agreed.

RB-SM-06: I suppose that will do.

Are there any outstanding points that I've missed? If not, I think we're done with 'The Ruin of Beleriand'!

[Findegil]

Are there any outstanding points that I've missed? If not, I think we're done with 'The Ruin of Beleriand'!

I dont think so.

It seems we are finished with The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin. When I remember correctly, we planed to review everything done up to this point next. And we had a shaky plan to send the now finished end of our work (from This chapter to the end of the Silmarillion) out to suposedly interested reader to gain more intrest in the project.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

When I remember correctly, we planed to review everything done up to this point next.

Yes, I have (somewhere) a bunch of notes on the texts of the chapters we've done. A lot of it is just typos here and there, but I think there are a few things that may need some discussion. I'll dig those notes out and post them as soon as I can (probably this weekend).

And we had a shaky plan to send the now finished end of our work (from This chapter to the end of the Silmarillion) out to suposedly interested reader to gain more intrest in the project.

Do you think we ought to do this right now or wait until we've reviewed the already-done chapters? It might be better to wait and send a more error-free text, I think.

[Findegil]

I look forward to your notes. Typos are welcome as well as discussable issues. Since I took up the job of the 'typer' I correcr typos silently when I come across, but any findings are welcom of course.

About the discusseable issues: I have tried my hand on the Appendix of The Ainulindalë. Probably I should post that now since it is a kind of condensed overview of our discussions.
Do you think we ought to do this right now or wait until we've reviewed the already-done chapters? It might be better to wait and send a more error-free text, I think.Your are right. That is probably better.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hi! I have one quick question about this chapter. Why was the name Meril removed as the name of Orodreth's wife? If it was decided that the footnote be taken and applied to him, then why not the name of Inglor's wife as well?

[Findegil]

Meril was removed because she was not named in the later Note on the parentage of Gil-galad. That Orodreth who loved the Mountians (supposedly that of Dorthonion) and had an Sindarin wife, would find that wife in Dorthonion is one thing, but to shift a name from the wife of Finrod to that of Orodreth is as nother kettle of fish.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

As we discussed in the Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie chapter, I will add the bit from the Shibboleth in here:

RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. RB-DF-07.1 <Shibboleth The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Fëanor, and Finrod son of {Arfin}[Finarfin]; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.> Then in great sorrow Fingon ....

[Findegil]

I would edit this a bit diffrent:§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor[ in Hithlum]> {There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor}, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. RB-DF-07.1<Shibboleth The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Fëanor, and Finrod son of {Arfin}[Finarfin]; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.<editorial addition based on Shibboleth At this time Finrod added the prefix fin- to the name of his father Arfin following the example of Fingolfin.
>> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, ...I know that this more risky, but I think we need to explain this prefix.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I agree, this is better.

[Arvegil145]

I think it should be mentioned somewhere in 'Of the Swarthy Men' that the Folk of Uldor settled in Thargelion (BTW, 'Thargelion' should be changed to 'Thargelian' as per 1970 'Maeglin' text - 'Talath Rhunen' and 'Dor Caranthir' are just other names for the region, not mutually exclusive).

This comes from the 'North-east' section of the map of Beleriand in The War of the Jewels, 'Of Beleriand and Its Realms', p. 183.

[Findegil]

We do already mention that 'The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast and Ulwarth and Uldor the Accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him ...' I don't think that in addition we would need a direct statment that they settled in Dor Caranthir.

BTW Thargelion and Thargelain are not to be used as the River is now named Duin Daer.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

We do already mention that 'The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast and Ulwarth and Uldor the Accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him ...' I don't think that in addition we would need a direct statment that they settled in Dor Caranthir.

BTW Thargelion and Thargelain are not to be used as the River is now named Duin Daer.

Respectfully
Findegil


First point - yes, folk of Uldor followed Caranthir, but that doesn't necessarily mean they settled on his land: for example, a lot of the Easterlings settled in Lothlann (which I don't think is under anyone's direct rule).

Second - the name 'Thargelian' (and 'Thorewilan') appear in the same text as 'Duin Daer' ('Maeglin', pp. 336-7): it seems that the element '-gelian' at this point in time started to refer to the Sindarized form of the river's Dwarven name ('Gabilan').

[Findegil]

{Thargelion}[Thargelain]: Good point. That gives us a better repleacement than what we have done so fare.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

{Thargelion}[Thargelain]: Good point. That gives us a better repleacement than what we have done so fare.

Respectfully
Findegil

I also think we have to change 'Ascar' to 'Asgar' as per The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Elvish Journeys on Horseback', p. 311 (dating from c. 1970), as well as The War of the Jewels, 'Maeglin', pp. 336-7.

[gondowe]

The Asgar, Ascar names, as far as I know are from the same linguistic period meaning the same and can be interchangeables. In my opinion one name would not invalidate the other.

Greetings

[Elvellon]

In the latest version in the private forum, there seems to be a missing piece here, where the ". }" is:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. }<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth.

In this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=643569&postcount=41), Findegil suggests this edit:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with RB-DB-28 {a host of} Balrogs. RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth.

And then in this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=643574&postcount=42), Aiwendil suggests this edit:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant {(who in Beleriand was named Gorsodh)} led that assault{,}[.]> RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth.

I'm not sure which one was finally decided on. Maybe neither, and it's just a stray "}" that didn't get deleted.

[Findegil]

Thank you for catching this! reading the thread farther, for me Aiwendil editing was taken in the end.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Evellon, did you adapt your settings for no private messages?

[Elvellon]

P.S.: Evellon, did you adapt your settings for no private messages?I just checked my settings, and I have private messages enabled.