Treebeard vs. the Elves-who is older?

[Iaragarwen]

Okay, I'm half way through reading the LOTR trilogy, (I'm new to Tolkien but I LOVE the LOTR books and movies!) and I read the part about Treebeard and the Ents. I'm confused. It says that Treebeard is the oldest of all living things, and yet the Elves woke the trees up and taught them to talk. Also, Tom Bombadill is said to be "the Eldest." Are you confused yet? smilies/smile.gif

[Airedae]

I might be wrong about this, if i am im sure someone will correct me but.....I think Treebeard is the oldest ENT...not the eldest in Middle Earth...i could be wrong but im sure someone knows the right answer.. smilies/smile.gif

[Sharkû]

Most there is to say about the matter has been already said here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000597).

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[Kidd2323]

I think it's possible that Treebeard could have been the very first Ent, which wouold make him the "oldest" of his kind, but when even the elves--notably Galadriel--call him eldest you know he must be older than most of the elves still in ME. I believe it's possible that Treebeard could be the oldest living thing on ME at the end of the LOTR. Many elves have escaped to the havens by this time, and many more are on their way. Treebeard, being the first Ent was probably around before most of the elves currently inhabiting ME at this time. But the elves did awake the Ents, so the Elves came first.

[VanimaEdhel]

Sharku: thank you for the links to already discussed topics. I like reading the old conversations and seeing what others had to say (especially if the topic has repeatedly been brought up).

[Iaragarwen]

Thanks guys, but I'm still confused about Bombadill even if the Ents are the oldest beings on middle-earth.Bombadill is the oldest person perhaps? If you can tell, I'm not an expert on the subject. smilies/wink.gif I just have one last question. WHY CAN'T TOLKIEN BE HERE TO ANSWER ALL THIS STUFF??!! smilies/biggrin.gif Oh well, I guess you can't have everything. smilies/smile.gif

[Starbreeze]

I can see where this confusion stems from, and I have a solution, I just can't explain it. Hmmmm, darn it, I'm too tired. smilies/frown.gif

[Morgoth of Angband]

treebeard is very old

[lathspell]

Tom Bombadil and Treebeard are both called 'eldest', (in fact Bombadil's elven-name, Iarwain Ben-Adar, means 'eldest and fatherless'), but I think that Treebeard was eldest of the non-maiar things in Middle-Earth. The ents were 'awakened' by the elves, but that doesn't really mean that there are still elves in Middle-Earth older than he.

Tom Bombadil is another story, he's oldest of all things in Middle-Earth. He was there from the beginning, according to himself:

'...Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-Wights. When te Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

Which means he was there already before the Elves went over the seas for the first time with Oromë, even before Melkor came for the first time to Middle-Earth to begin his plans of The Darkening.
So Tom Bombadil must be eldest, he was there before the elves, the istari, men and so on. The only question that comes up in my mind is: are there any others like Tom Bombadil in ME that we do not know about?

[Iaragarwen]

Hmmmm, now I have another question. If Tom Bombadil is the oldest being, then how can the Dark Lord be older? I haven't read the Similarion (I think that's how it's spelled) before. smilies/smile.gif

[Orald]

The Dark Lord could be Melkor, but it also might be Sauron. It isn't very clear in that passage, since the Dark Lord that the hobbits know is Sauron.

In that quote it does say that he is older than the trees, though, which would imply that he is older than the ents since they are merely awakened trees.

[lathspell]

I said Tom Bombadil is eldest of ME, not that he was eldest. Ofcourse the Valar were the very first 'children' of Eru Iluvatar, but they are all on Aman for the time being and Melkor (in the beginning also a Vala and later cast out), he was cast in the Void. Tom Bombadil is eldest of ME, not eldest of Arda.

I think the Dark Lord meant by him was indeed Melkor, because the things he says in his quote (apart from the first raindrop and acorn) seem to go back in time...first he says the big people, the the elves and at last he mentions the Dark Lord. This is one reason to believe that it was Melkor, but in the quote he also says this:

He knew the dark under the stars when it was FEARLESS - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

If he would have meant Sauron, it would already have been fearfull. I think he means the first Dark Lord because before Melkor there were no Dark Lords, maybe even no evil at all (except Ungoliant) for he himself 'created' from the elves the orcs, the trolls against the ents, he even 'made' the first dragon, Glaurung. So if he would have meant Sauron, i guess he wouldn't have said such a thing.

[lathspell]

oh, and this:
Iaragarwen - It's the Silmarillion (but we all know what you mean) smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Iaragarwen]

Ok, thanks a lot! smilies/wink.gif

[Olorin_The_Grey]

Some great points about Tom Bombadil there. I think he is the biggest mystery of Tolkien. What do you guys think he is.

[O'Boile]

Sharku made a good point... Treebeard is older than any of the elves currently in middle earth. There are older ones, but they pased into the west.

[Rosa_Baggins]

Ents are older than Elves aren't they?

[Rosa_Baggins]

Tom is.....a..man i think.Just a werid one. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Varda Elentari]

The ents are because in The Silmarillion, Manwë says "The Shepherds of the Trees walk in the forests." (or something like that, I don't have it with me right now). The Sheperds of the Trees being Ents. This is before the Elves awkoke. I think the Elves taught the Ents to speak though.
I might be wrong, so if I am, please correct me.

[Anna Licumo]

Well, I think that the Elves were older, as a general race because they are the First. That was what Eru decreed.

[gollum*elf*pup]

i wonder . . . hmmm, they might have a fight over it :
"Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born". Elrond has Quickbeam made into an armoire; Treebeard grinds Glorfindel into mulch."

[Daniel Telcontar]

It is very interesting indeed. Aule makes the dwarves, which are put to sleep because Eru wants the elves to be the eldest children. And then Yavanna complains because the trees are defenceless, and Eru promises her guards. The question is: did the guards, ents, wake up at that time, before the elves, or did they sleep until much later when they were needed for protection, e.g. when the dwarves or the orcs became a race?

[Imperica]

It is very interesting indeed. Aule makes the dwarves, which are put to sleep because Eru wants the elves to be the eldest children. And then Yavanna complains because the trees are defenceless, and Eru promises her guards. The question is: did the guards, ents, wake up at that time, before the elves, or did they sleep until much later when they were needed for protection, e.g. when the dwarves or the orcs became a race?

How old races are doesn't really depend on when they awoke. The elves are still the first, they were probably sleeping. Ents vs Elves for the title of first-born, well this is quite simple. Why would the trees need defense when no children have awoken yet? So there really wouldn't be a reason for Ents to be running around guarding the trees when the Elves or Dwarves haven't even woke up yet.

[Ainatar]

Ents have been in ME longer than the Elves have. Elves are older, however, and came in from a different land (I cant remember which right now, possibly the the Grey Havens).
Ents awoke with the land, if i am not mistaken.

As for Bombadil, I am not sure, but i remember reading, or hearing somewhere that he tended to the Ents. That implies that he was in ME before the Ents, but that cannot be because Ents have been in ME as long as ME has been.
This is a rather confusing matter.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't think you are right. Elves woke up at the lake of Cuivienen, I think it is spelled, in ME. The Grey Havens are also a part of ME. The ents was not created with ME, they came after, when Yavanna asked Eru to create them.
That makes it possible for Bombadil to tend to the ents, since he was there before them.

[Anorien]

the elves are older, duh!

[Ainatar]

My response about the Grey Havens is partially untrue. It is not a land, it is an elven port in a land west of Middle Earth, also called Mithlond. It can only be gotten to by way of sailing and leads to a land that can only be gotten to by will the of the Gods, if you will, for the "Gods" live there, it is an Immortal land.
The Elves lived there before Middle Earth existed.

That really didnt make much sense did it?

[Orome]

it is also incorrect. the elves began in middle earth. Orome led them to Aman, Melkor stole the silmarills, Feanor and the many other Noldor went over to fight Melkor. Finally, at the end of the First age, the Valar fought Melkor, breaking up the land and forming "present day" middle earth

[Ainatar]

okay, thanks for correcting me, i just knew it wasnt in "present day" ME smilies/rolleyes.gif

but i was right about what the grey havens is

[Orome]

its ok i hope i was not harsh on ya

[Catherine]

I am so confused. It might be because I am tired. smilies/redface.gif

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Tom Bombadil was in Ea before the Valar.

[Aragost]

the ents were in ME first then came the elves who taught them to speak.The ents are older.
treebeard and bombadil were probably the same person

[Daniel Telcontar]

Is it some kind of joke? Sorry if I'm slow, it's the middle of the night.

[Orome]

its either that or they are making stuff up.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Yeah, cause there is way to much evidence that Bombadil and Treebeard are not the same person, so I'll take it as a joke anyway. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

Tom Bombadil. smilies/smile.gif

[Imperica]

the ents were in ME first then came the elves who taught them to speak.

This is untrue, the Elves are the Firstborn.

The ents are older.

This is also untrue, let me resay it, the Elves are the Firstborn. Treebeard however states he is the oldest in Middle-Earth, except for Tom. And this is probably true.

treebeard and bombadil were probably the same person

Nope.

[flyingtable83]

I don't mean to be persnickety, but...

it seems as though the elves were first created, although ents were "alive" in ME before them. This part of the Silm is rather like a faded bible story that is fuzzy for a purpose. Also, in LoTR Treebeard is quoted as saying that their were "hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am. If he is eldest, then there are his trees to watch over, which were obviously there before anything else on ME that was living.

Then there is Tom. After reading through various threads on him, as well as a couple of essays, I have solidified my idea for what he is. Even though there is logical and literary doubt and evidence given to every hypothesis, I believe that Tom is merely an earthly recreation of Illuvatar. It is reiterated over and over again in the beginning of the Silmarrilion that Illuvatar had a vision that was not fully revealed to anyone. I believe he came to earth as Tom from the very beginning of time and when the time was near he gave Frodo a slight nudge toward fame. I truly believe it was Illuvatar intervening in ME, but as I said, there are logical and literary flaws in all Bombadil theories.