What was the Arkenstone?

[Boromir]

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It seems to me that the descriptions of the Arkenstone of Thrain and the Silmarils is fairly similar. The dwarves said they found it at the heart of the mountain. Could it have been the Silmaril that went with Maedhros when he plunged himself into a large crack in the earth at the end of the War of Wrath.

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[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: What was the Arkenstone?

You may be right, Boromir. Though if I remember correctly, Maedhros wasn't anywhere near Erebor when he perished in the crack.
Though the Silmarilion tells that the Silmarils not only took existing light, and split it into all colours, but shone of their own inner light as well. That is exactly what the dwarves said about the Arkentstone.

However some things are inconsistent. Size is one. If the Arkenstone was as big as Bilbo's hand, Feanor couldn't easily have worn it on his brow in Valinor, could he?

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[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[burrahobbit]

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Re: What was the Arkenstone?

First I would like to comment on the size issue. Wile something the size of a hand might be uncomfortable to wear, you have to remember that Bilbo was a small hobbit, whil Feanor was a tall elf, so something the size of Bilbos hand could easily have been worn by Feanor. And as to the distance to Erebor, I have two ideas about that. The first comes from a line in the Silmarillion, &quot;departng unfought they [Maglor and Maedhros] fled far away.&quot; While it does not say how far or in which direction, we know that Erebor is indeed quite far. The second comes from what I know about the way that minerals are recycled in the earth. I'll try to explain this the best that I can. The center of the Earth is hot and rocks near it are melted, pressure in this mixture of melted rocks pushes the magma (lava that is still underground) up through the Earth's crust. As the magma gets close to the surface it pushes up the crust to form a mountain (volcano), the place where the magma comes out as lava is the vent. Maedhros jumped into a vent and as the silmarils can not be harmed by anything in arda the one that he carried was not harmed. It sloshed around in the Earth for a while until it was pushed up when Erebor was formed and there it stayed until it was found by dwarves. Correct me if I have anything wrong, and tell me if you don't understand anything, I'll try to make it clear. It's late and I dont know how much sense I'm making.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: What was the Arkenstone?

Do you think so, B? Actually, the Arkenstone was the size of both Bilbo's hands. Still, I hadn't really considered the size difference between the hobbit and Feanor, and your theory about the stone being floated around inside the Earth seems pretty good. And your post was fine; you don't need to ask for correction!
I considered adding something about that magma business myself, but I decided not to <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> .

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[Balin999]

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Re: Arkenstone and Silmaril

burrahobbit gave a very good description of the process but personally i like boromirs theory better.
it is written that both the silmaril and the arkenstone shone from within and reflected the light.
i dont know very much about diamonds and gems but if im right diamonds have to be formed to get the right shape so that they can reflect the light ...that true?
so if the arkenstone was a diamond it couldnt reflect the light like it did....
so maybe boromirs theory is right. please correct me if im wrong
oh and im back online for a while. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Arkenstone and Silmaril

The Silmarils burned and withered the hands of anyone who touched them that was 'impure'. Though Bilbo was a fine fellow, I'm not so sure about Thorin or all of the Dwarves that had handled the stone before it became part of Smaug's treasury. I'm sure the Arkenstone was also passed around between Thranduil and Bard, also.

The Arkenstone was not a Silmaril.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Taimar]

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Re: Arkenstone and Silmaril

This is a nice idea, but there is no way that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril. Gandalf would surely have recognized it as such and he is hardly likely to have stood by and allowed it to be buried on Thorin`s breast.

Smaug may also have found one of the Silmarils too hot to handle. It didn`t do Carcharoth much good after he bit off Beren`s hand, so I don`t imagime that Smaug would have slept too soundly if one of the Silmarils had been part of his hoard.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 8/3/00 7:47:03 am

[Boromir]

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Re: Arkenstone and Silmaril

I didn't have much hope for this idea coming through, but the two descriptions were to enticingly similar. I did doubt that the same jewel that caused dwarves to kill Thingol would be able to be so lightly buried on Thorin's breast.

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[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Accident

JRRT wrote the hobbit before he had even invented the Silmarils, or so it seems. The description of the Arkenstone is either simililar to the Sils by accident, or JRRT wrote it to spark discussion and ideas like yours, Boromir.

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[The Westward Road]

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Silm. is older story though...

I believe he began writing Silm long before the hobbit. It was his life's work, but he kept having to write other stuff before he could fully concentrate on the Silm. The hobbit was a story he told his kids(or grandkids im not sure) using the world he was creating in the Silm. Later he used it to get some money while writing his massive creation myth. When the hobbit had success he was asked to write a sequel. Therefore he wrote LOTR and never got a chance to finish the Silm which he had spent so much time on. This is what I have heard but never have read alot about him. I wonder if he could have ever finished the Silm even if he had lived longer because he was constantly changing and molding it. He wanted it to be so perfect that maybe it would have never been finished so it took a different person, his son, to compile and tie it up after his death. Just a bit of Spec on this friday

also I believe it could not have been a Silmaril because the ending of the War of Wrath states that one is in the Air with Earendil and the other two are in the Earth and Water ,respectively, and they will stay there till the end the final battle when the world is broken.

TWR

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000109>The Westward Road</A> at: 8/4/00 7:22:06 am

[burrahobbit]

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Re: Silm. is older story though...

I was thinking about that last part. Gandalf would have recognized it as a silmaril, but he also would have known that it was supposed to stay tied up with the earth, and, after Thorin died, it was. But it isn't a silmaril.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000062>burrahobbit</A> at: 8/13/00 1:58:57 am

[lindil]

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It is the silmarillion !-kind of

Iimagine the arkenstone was the repressed [unpublished] silmarillion
coming into his glorified children's tale and that thequalities are identical because JRRT used the exact same language to describe them both [with out realizing it ?] out of a desire for [ the tale of the Silmarills] to get out one way or another.
sub-conscious allegorical sub-creation I would call it.
I always thought it strange that they buried it and didn't put it atop his tomb,so all could see.

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[galpsi]

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Re: It is the silmarillion !-kind of

Funny, but it strikes me as perfectly dwarvish.

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[Taimar]

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Re: It is the silmarillion !-kind of

If they had put it atop his tomb, the first passing opportunist would have enriched himself considerably.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[lindil]

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Re: It is the silmarillion !-kind of

I am rather confident they could have affixed it in a serious fashion.
I don't have the book with me , but wasn't thorin buried in a great hall in the lonely mountain ? and I wonder , since his sword was an early warning device wether it wouldn't have been prudent to post a 24 hr. honor guard/watchman there anyway.




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[eljimbo]

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Re: What was the Arkenstone?

Well just to put in my two cents. The action on the falling cold rocks and the rising hot melted rock in the earht causes convection currents which move the tectonic plates. along plate boundaries hot rock is constantly being pushed up. And inland volcanoes away from boundaries are formed when the pressure gets to great. The rock doesn't move around in the earth because of pressure, its convection currents.

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[galpsi]

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Re: What was the Arkenstone?

That's pretty hardcore el-man.

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[eljimbo]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: What was the Arkenstone?

And all this time I was wondering when science class might come in handy!

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: What was the Arkenstone?

Looky there! Eljimbo has devolved to Pile o 'Bones!!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[eljimbo]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Wow

Thats coo

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[HerenIstarion]

Not a Silmaril, because Silmarils would not reappear until Arda is Remade. I reckon it was purely essay on Tolkien's behalf to see jewel-greedy persons reacting and jumping around the treasure, repeating Silmaril theme on a minor scale

[Feanor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arkenstone

I was really hoping it might be a silmaril too. It seems such a shame that all the beautiful works of Fëanor should be forever withheld from Middle-Earth. Though I'm sure had it been a silmaril I'm sure it would have caused even more trouble and set ablaze the fires of war through-out Middle-Earth again. Still... t'would be nice to think the jewels might re-surface in middle-earth again.


&quot;Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue.&quot;


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[Hannah Burrows]

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My thoughts

I'm not an expert at the Silmarillion (Never read it but have heard about the silmarils.) But I have two things to add.
1) If the Arkenstone were placed above Thorin's tomb I doubt thieves would've stolen it. Number one, It would be too hard to get at, think of Gimli's pride in dwarven architechture. Number two, I think the dwarves would be more respectful than to steal the Arkenstone but an outsider might try at it, I dunno.
2) Totally irrelevent but, It must be rather hard for the dwarves in some cases, think about it. They live awfully far down in the mountains, imagine their surprise if they found they were living in a dormant volcano!

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[Ailios]

Tolkien wrote Old English versions of the Silmarillion. There Silmarils are 'Eorclanstans'. And from this the word 'Arkenstone' is derived according to Christopher Tolkien in HoME 4. So I think it is quite possible that Tolkien had a Silmaril in mind when he was describing the Arkenstone in the Hobbit.

[Cúdae]

Ooh, resurrected topic! I love these...

Anyway, I don't think the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, for reasons stated about three years ago by various other people. smilies/smile.gif

However...

That was just my opinion, there are other facts to consider. The first of which may be the strikingly similar descriptions of the Silmarils and the Arkenstone, but that could very well be one of those sub-counscious allegorical sub-creation thingies as Lindil called it.

Then we have the fact that Maedhros had a Simaril, killed himself, lost the Silmaril in the process all far away from where he started out. I haven't seen any cracks to jump into in Middle-Earth, fiery or otherwise. This leaves speculation for the erosion theory and the closing of faults that form mountains. Or, rather, one mountain. The Lonely Mountain had to come about somehow, a nice little fiery chasm/fault could have fixed that up. Or maybe not, I'm a little rusty on my geology skills (for instance, I'm not even sure it's called geology).

Then someone on this thread mentioned the fact that the Silmarils burned those who touched them, but what about those who touched them without knowing what they were? The Dwarves, if they knew of the Silmarils, probably didn't expect to find one in their own "backyard" and therefore could have dismissed the notion and not actually have known that the Arkenstone was a Silmaril. Thranduil undoubtedly knew about the Silmarils and also probably thought the last thing he'd see in his life would be a Silmaril, therefore might have done something similar to the Dwarves- dismissed the notion, not realized it was Silmaril- not know it was a Silmaril.

When you take into consideration the fact that the Silmarils were supposed to stay in the Heavens, the Seas, and the Earth until Arda was remade (which doesn't sound promising at all if you ask me smilies/smile.gif ), it can still fit. Yes, if it was a Silmaril it was taken from the Earth, but not knowlingly and it was returned to the Earth at Thorin's burial. It was buried with Thorin, thereby returning to the depths of the Earth. As a second thought, to add a little to that, before it was found by Bilbo & Co., it was part of Smaug's horde- also located within the earth.

That was just my speculation. I'd be honored to see what (if anything) anyone has in reply to it. It looks pretty jumbled to me. smilies/smile.gif

[Morgul Queen]

Actually, Its is stated in one of the books that Thranduil is Doriathrin so it would be more like not expecting to see one again!

Its the shock factor people!!!

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, if anyone would care to read it who hasn't already, I've actually written rather an extensive analytical on this subject. You can have a look at it here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002537). Some discussion follows on this thread (I think it's about nine or so pages back in this forum).
I wrote the essay from the point of view that yes, the Arkenstone was a Silmaril. However one cannot really decide this to be true. It does seem unlikely, but it is quite possible, I think, that it may have been. Of course, the similarities may just be down to the fact that both gems were created in the brain of the same author.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Cúdae]

Gwaihir, that essay is enough to make me reconsider my stance that the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril! I would have replied on that thread, but it already seemed full to brimming with ideas, and this one could use a few more. smilies/smile.gif

One of the things you wrote caught my eye:
Does this not mean that the Silmarili will each have a part to play, in the destiny of the world? One in air, one in the sea, one in earth? It is very possible that this is what Mandos actually meant.
In this case, we can poke around back into the Hobbit (but of course!) and the Lord of the Rings. If each Silmaril has a part to play in the destiny of the world and the War of the Ring is undoubtedly a very big part of that, is it crazy to think that possibly Earendil's Silmaril and Maedhros's Silmaril each had a part in that? The light of Earendil's star was given to Frodo by Galadriel, therefore, the light of a Silmaril. It helped get the quest done. The Arkenstone, however, was found in the Hobbit, which is generally considered the prequel of sorts to the Lord of the Rings. If it is indeed the Silmaril of the earth, the one that went down with Maedhros, is it possible then that it heralded the War of the Ring with it's appearance (or, in this case, reappearance)?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, I was always quite proud of that piece of writing smilies/wink.gif. Well-elaborated, my friend. It is indeed true that many fascinating possibilites exist, only hemmed in by the seeming improbability of the thing. The Arkenstone not only did play an important part in the War of the Ring -- in a slightly obscure way, but an important one indeed when you think about it -- but it also saved the Dwarves from ruin. This is a true possibility for evidence that it was a Silmaril.
The light of Earendil, of course, was important in the salvation of Middle-Earth in the First Age, as well as in the War of the Ring.

Someone might like to write a counter-argument, to be really fair, though =]. That would be a useful thing to do... I might do it myself actually, sometime in the future.

[ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Cúdae]

A counter-argument would be interesting. Maybe I'll write it, since I still don't think the Arkenstone was a Silmaril. Hmm...

[the guy who be short]

Of dwarves in Nogrod and Belegost trading with Doriath and building king Thingol's halls:
And though the dwarves ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held themselves paid. For Melian taught them much wisdom, which they were eager to get; whereas thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls...The Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. And one there was great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as the starlight upon the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftan of the Enfeng prized it above a mountain of wealth.
HoME XI, The War of the Jewels, p11
That's all we have describing this opal. I cant remember how the Arkenstone was found in the Hobbit, does it say? Because perhaps the refugess from Nogrod and Belegost brought it back to Moria, and those dwarves took it to Erebor, then Erebor was attacked.

[The Saucepan Man]

I cant remember how the Arkenstone was found in the Hobbit, does it say?

Yes, in Inside Information:

But fairest of all was the great white gem, which the dwarves had found beneath the roots of the Mountain, the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain.

Which unforunately points to Nimphelos and the Arkenstone not being the same - unless the Dwarves absent-mindedly buried it and then rediscovered it later. smilies/wink.gif

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Unless the two gems were of the same kind; but I don't think they were. The descriptions are quite different. All gems have a 'sheen', but how many are actually phosphorescent?

Cudae, you are quite welcome to write that essay if you wish, and you are welceom to reference to my own for anything at all.
If you change your mind, make sure you let me know.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Another possibility on the Silmaril/Arkenstone issue is the following: The Arkenstone might not itself be a silmaril, but it might have formed and crystallized under the earth, in close proximity to the silmaril of Maedhros, thus capturing a significant amount of silmaril-light, which it then gives off over time. Sort of the way the phial of Galadriel contained light from Earendil's silmaril, and this source of "secondary silmaril-light" (or tertiary tree-light, if you will) proved useful to Sam and Frodo.

Or maybe the Arkenstone is some kind of radioactive ore, in which case it's a good thing Sauron didn't get hold of it. smilies/eek.gif

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Lol, another possibility. But how long exactly would Galadriel's light have lasted? The Arkenstone lasted for years and years through the endurance of the Kingdom Under the Mountain, and presumably for years afterwards. Presumable forever, like. I doubt that the phial given to Frodo would have proved to be this enduring. You get the feeling there was something more about the Arkenstone, don't you?

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Wow. When I first read the Hobbit, I didn't think Arkenstone more than it appeared to be. However, this discussion has almost convinced me it could be a Silmaril.
About the secondary light theory. The phial of Galadriel was made of crystal, no? And the Arkenstone was clearly diamond. So couldn't the light of the Silmaril be captured in diamond better than crystal?
However, I could be talking nonsense here... smilies/rolleyes.gif

-Aredhel

[Cúdae]

Aredhel Idril Telcontar (long name, but I like it)- The Arkenstone was clearly a diamond? *looks confused* Could you explain that to me, because I never really thought of it as one. Thanks. smilies/smile.gif

And Gwaihir, I've started working on the counter-argument essay. smilies/smile.gif

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Fantastic, let me know when you're finished so I can read it ok? And make it nice and comprehensive smilies/smile.gif. Maybe we can gang up on the Wight to get them stuck up on the main site (I can't seem to be able to contact the bugger...) Oh, there are more admins around now aren't there? Anyway, just write it and we'll see about that.

The Arkenstone was diamond was it, and the phial of Galadriel was 'crystal'? Actually, diamond is a particularly crystallic type of crystal, you know (lol I'm slightly interested in geology, actually). But it does seem that the Arkenstone was made of some heavy material or other, similar to the Sils, rather than the light little phial -- that may in fact have been glass -- that Galadriel gave. I think it was something quite different. The phial was disposable (by that I mean short-life), I am fairly sure of that. I don't think the Arkenstone was. Its light, as I have said, endured for years and years above ground and was apparently still as bright as ever when it was reburied.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Actually, diamond is a particularly crystallic type of crystal, you know (lol I'm slightly interested in geology, actually). But it does seem that the Arkenstone was made of some heavy material or other, similar to the Sils, rather than the light little phial -- that may in fact have been glass -- that Galadriel gave.
Seems my guesswork paid off smilies/wink.gif. I thought Arkenstone was diamond because it was certainly *white* and the only two precious stones of the color that came to my mind were opal and diamond, and it certainly wasn't opal.

Thanks, Cudae smilies/biggrin.gif. Just call me by my first name smilies/wink.gif.

-Aredhel

[the guy who be short]

Which unforunately points to Nimphelos and the Arkenstone not being the same - unless the Dwarves absent-mindedly buried it and then rediscovered it later.

Quite possible. The kings of Nogrod left and established in Khazad-dum. They were accepted by their kin but safely guarded the Nimphelos, fearing lest the heirloom of their kings be usurped. Their line married into the Kings, and thus it came into possesion of the heirs of Durin, but by tradition was kept secret. In 1999, King Thrain left Khazad-dum because of the Balrog and established in Erebor. Fearing lest anything should befall the Nimphelos, heirloom of kings and only treasure he brought from Khazad-dum, he hid it.
Now, he died in 2190. this gives him 191 years to go mad and forgetful in old age. He completely forgets about the Nimphelos, then mines for treasure in his old age. He comes upon the Nimphelos, but being so aged doesn't recognise it and renames it the Arkenstone of Thrain (after himself).

So perhaps the Arkenstone was the Nimphelos! smilies/wink.gif smilies/tongue.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Sillabub]

it was a rock

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Interesting, but I don't think Thrain was senile (I assume your post was in jest, shorty, but I'm going to say something on Nimphelos anyway). smilies/smile.gif For a start the Dwarves wouldn't have lost the Nimphelos if they were in secure possession of it, and at any rate would certainly not get it confused with an entirely other stone. A different stone.

[the guy who be short]

Interesting, but I don't think Thrain was senile (I assume your post was in jest, shorty
Yes, my post was a joke. Can't really imagine a senile dwarf. Also, please refrain from calling me shorty. I dont mind TGWBS though.
There is now no chance the Nimphelos was the Arkenstone. I have no evidence other than that already stated, but do not believe it was a Silmaril.

[Finwe]

The Nimphelos and the Arkenstone could definitely not be the same because one was a pearl and the other was a diamond. Even for a senile Dwarf, there is absolutely no chance of confusing a pearl with a diamond. It's just impossible. Even an uncut diamond looks nothing like a pearl, and wouldn't the other Dwarves have thought it strange that a huge pearl turned up in the middle of a mountain? Some of them, knowing old legends, would have probably recognized it, and written it down. I think that when it was hidden, it was lost. There is nothing more to say.