Lord of the Nazgul

[juiceloosener]

Hello everyone. There's something I've been wondering about. When the the Lord of the Nazgul tells Dernhelm(Eowyn) "No living man may hinder me!" at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, is he just referring to humans? If not, how does he know she's not an elf? He obviously has no clue that she's a woman. He's fearlessly leading an army in the middle of a huge battle, is he just assuming that there are no elves?

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

It's the deceptive nature of prophecy. He made the common mistake of assuming he knew the full meaning of it.

You're right, there's a little breathing room in there for still a third meaning. But I think there's a difference between Mortal Man and Living Man. Both Elves and Humans fall into the latter category. Elves are divided into male and female as well, as are dwarves, hobbits... if he'd thought of it from that angle he'd have not been so confident, as that left half the continent able to smite him.

It seems he was too sure of himself to look as closely as you did at the wording! You might have fared better with the prediction (or curled into a ball realizing it could mean any number of things). Have you thought of changing your name to Malbeth?

smilies/smile.gif Maril

[juiceloosener]

Thanks for responding. That's originally what I assumed as well (that living man probably included elves, dwarves, etc.). But in FotR, Glorfindel says he ran into 3 (I think) Nazgul and pursued them as they fled. And Glorfindel says that there are few left in Rivendell that will openly ride against the Nazgul. So that means more than just Glorfindel in Rivendell. He chased off three Nazgul by himself ( Im sure someone knows if the Lord of the Nazgul was in that number, but I don't and Im not sure it matters) but the Lord says "No living man may hinder me." What?? And that brings up another point: What makes Glorfindel and the few left in Rivendell (and presumably more elves in other places) so powerful that they can singlehandedly take on the Nazgul? I realize he died fighting a Balrog and came back to Middle Earth, but was it just his age?

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Openly ride against the Nazgul.

The prophecy concerned the death specifically of the Lord of the Nazgul. The other Nazgul didn't have such a prophecy or such (feeble) surety. Yet the Nazgul, including the Witch King, can suffer a defeat without being utterly destroyed. In fact they did, at the Fords of Rivendell.

[Sharkû]

You may also want to take a look at this (http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000048) and also this (http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000025) older thread about the topic of the Witch-King and the prophecy.

[Mithadan]

I have always had some difficulty with the prophecy. I am of the camp holding that Merry slew the Nazgul and that Eowyn's blow was an assistance at best. That said, Hobbits are "Men" and Merry was male. I have never considered the idea that "Men" meant males of all races, assuming that the prophecy referred at least to human males if not all humans. Else, why would the Witch King flee from Glorfindel when Angmar was defeated in the North?

[Sharkû]

In one of the abovementioned threads, I have proposed a mainly speculative theory that the essential part of the prophecy is not the 'man', but the 'living', and that certain conditions of rage, for example, could be considered as being nearer to death than life. Hence the prophecy may apply to both Merry and Éowyn.

[GreyIstar]

It was an illustration of how overconfidence and a lack of understanding things wcan be you downfall. The same goes with Sauron, he could not concieve that that someone would actually want to destroy his ring and that was his downfall.

[Mister Underhill]

The actual prophecy was, as near as I can tell, pronounced by Glorfindel following the defeat of Angmar and the flight of the Witch-king: 'Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.'This more straightforward statement lends itself to a more straightforward interpretation. But I do admire Sharkû's speculative ponderings in a previous thread.

[Turambar]

Where is that quote from, Mr. U ??

[Mister Underhill]

The quote is from Appendix A -> The Númenorean Kings -> Gondor and the Heirs Of Anárion. Incidentally, Gandalf paraphrases the prophecy in Book V, Chapter 4 - The Siege of Gondor.

[Sharkû]

Indeed, I did not use Glorfindels actual words that theory, for those are what Undé quoted from Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers of Gondor. Which leads to the question why the Witch-King added that small word 'living' to it?

[Turambar]

Thanks. I tend to look for simple explanations, and in this case the simple explanation is that JRRT uses the "no living man" prophecy because it sets up some nice dramatic irony when the WK is slain by a woman -- similar to MacBeth where the prophecy was that "no man born of woman" could slay MacBeth and -- oops! -- MacDuff's mom had a C-section.

[Mister Underhill]

We did a thread afore, methinks, regarding Shakespearian references in LotR. I agree -- that little prophecy/reveal has always smacked of Macbeth to me, too. Sharku wrote:

Which leads to the question why the Witch-King added that small word 'living' to it?Indeed! Perhaps this is a nod on the part of the Witch-king to his master, who could hinder him, but who perhaps was not, strictly speaking, 'living'?

[Sharkû]

Good point.

Or the Witch-King knew that 'moribund' challengers of his would not fear him and thus have the power to harm him.

Or he interpretated the prophecy by himself more or less correctly.

Or the prophecy was once reiterated in that version... nothing like some good speculation.

[Witch King of Angmar]

I am flattered that my hero receives so much publicity. J/K

I believe that Merry actually did the slaying of the Witch King while Eowyn was kind of just there. I also believe that the weapon he was using contributed to the defeat of the Witch King.

I believe that when the Witch King said no living man he meant people in general. I also do not think that he meant that quite as literally as everyone takes it. It may have been a good deal of boasting, yet there was still truth in the statement.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Dead on with the Macbeth reference.
So much of ME has a whiff of familiarity because he drew on our half-forgotten mythology, which surfaces in everything from Shakespeare to the brothers Grimm. (he also drew on the roots of our own languange - ever notice you can almost understand elvish?) The theme of the prophecy understood too late goes back to Oedipus, but it's likely older still.

Regarding Mithadan's interesting and unpredictable point - that Merry and not Eowyn slew the Witch King.. why do you think that?

I wondered recently why swinging an ordinary steel blade in the empty space between head and crown would do anything besides make a nice Swishing sound (except that it brings to mind early Medieval superstitions that held iron was poison to - well, dangerous elves in that context, but any uncanny spirits of the night - yet I don't think that superstition applies here).

In my first reading I picked up that it referred to both his death at the hands of Merry, a hobbit and Eowyn, a woman - the prophecy had a double edge so to speak. smilies/tongue.gif I thought that was very clever of Tolkien. Later I doubted my interpretation since no one agreed!

The prophecy mentions only to the circumstances "not by the hand of man", and not the means.

The means, an ordinary sword through thin air doesn't make sense to me. Even if it did shatter in a billion pieces. Yet it's hard to imagine stabbing anything in the calf could do much harm.

So do you think it was Merry because of how Tolkien made much of the fact he wielded a blade of Westernesse, "bound about by spells for the ruin of Mordor"?

Or do you feel Merry's bespelled blade rendered the leader of the Nazgul vulnerable at that moment, and she just happened to strike precisely then, thus fulfilling the prophecy?

Sorry my thoughts are disorganized, a little tired tonight.

-Maril

Very interesting, all.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[obloquy]

"I wondered recently why swinging an ordinary steel blade in the empty space between head and crown would do anything besides make a nice swishing sound..."

I don't think the space could be considered "empty". The Nazgul were obviously able to affect the physical world, and likewise physical objects could not occupy the same space as their "wraith" forms. For example, the fact that he even had a helm tells us that there was something there to strike. Also their cloaks, and any weapons they wielded. Remember that the Nazgul didn't die to become the wraiths that they were, they simply withered away. In this way they are different than simple spirits. But what is the difference? Do they still maintain a physical form, albeit invisible to those whose reality is strictly the world of the living? What of the barrow wights? This is an intriguing topic and I'd like to hear some thoughts. Perhaps in a new thread.

So I opt for the second, Maril: Merry merely made the King vulnerable to Eowyn, and her blow was the one that rendered him an impotent spirit. I also don't think that he necessarily believed he was invulnerable to Eowyn, because he originally thought she was a man. Perhaps he had made it his policy not to go into hand-to-hand combat with women or Elves or Dwarves or Ents or Istari. In this case he was trapped.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Whoa, obloquy, that was quick! I just posted my response!

Yes, yes, good point, he Did have a form of sorts that could be seen - in otherworldly sight where you could see the essence of the being and not just their form, so that Glorfindel appeared as a bright light - such as when Frodo wore the ring at the Fords. I'm happy to contradict myself if I happen to be wrong, though I was kidding about the swish through thin air and really meant how much effect could plain ordinary steel have such a being as that?

That is a good one for a new string. Would you like to do the honors? (respectful bow to seniority.)

-Maril

[Turambar]

Regarding Sharkû's point about fatalistic or moribund courage making one not a "living man" -- there is some support for this view in Tolkien's frequent use of the word "fey" in describing extreme, reckless courage. "Fey" means both "doomed to die" and "otherwordly" (and its etymology is related to "foe".) Féanor, when he presses on beyond his troops in the 2d battle, is described as fey, and he is unstoppable until surrounded by a host of orcs. Fingolfin might also be deribed as fey when he rides to confront Morgoth (I can't remember). (Does anyone remember other uses of this word? Turin maybe?) Merry and Eowyn are not described as fey, but the idea is used elsewhere.

[obloquy]

Here's at least some evidence that the King knew he was not completely invincible:
"That this [The Shire] would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lorien seemed to him [the Lord of the Nazgul] not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lorien."
He seemed to fear Galadriel. One might argue that it was Nenya he feared, but was not the location of the Three secret to Sauron, though he had suspicions? The wording here almost implies that the King knew of her ring, but it doesn't necessarily. Only that he would not defy the fence about Lorien -- this being the power of the White Ring.

I don't think he would've quoted his prophecy had he known he was up against a woman. He probably would've laughed at her, but I doubt he'd have busted out the "no living man" thing. I suspect he knew the prophecy wasn't all-inclusive. Any arguments to the contrary?

[Turambar]

I agree, although he was given to boasting --didn't he also tell Gandalf "Old fool, this is my hour". He was wrong there, too.

[KayQy]

In a sense, it was his hour, though not the hour he was expecting.
He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.
Merry seeing Dernhelm for the first time (also recalled on the battlefield). If that's not fey, I don't know what is.

I also subscribe to the teamwork theory. And maybe the back of his knee was kind of his Achilles' heel. If only because of the chink in the armor there.

[Lostgaeriel]

In answer to Turambur's post of Nov. 28, 7:47 am :
Does anyone remember other uses of this word (fey)?

The word "fey" was used to describe Éomer's mood after he saw his sister fallen in the Pelennor Fields.
He stood a moment as a man who is pierced in the midst of a cry by an arrow through the heart: and then his face went deathly white, and a cold fury rose in him, so that all speech failed him for a while. A fey mood took him.
'Éowyn, Éowyn!' he cried at last. 'Éowyn, how come you here? What madnesss or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!'
I think this passage describes what is meant by "fey" - slightly mad, crazy / attuned to the supernatural world / elfin(Old English fœge) - from Webster's Dictionary. Interesting word. smilies/smile.gif

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I stillll say that it was Merry and Eowyn in tandem...and referring to the quote about the face that seeks death, "if you can't find something to live for, find something to die for". I know it can be easily be debated, but tis still interesting

[Lostgaeriel]

I agree that Merry and Éowyn together destroyed the Witch King. I think the Black Captain interpreted the prophecy to mean that it would take someone more powerful than a man to stop or destroy him. He knew Sauron could finish him off but obviously considered Gandalf, a powerful wizard, too weak to beat him. He didn't consider that the small (Merry) and desparate (Éowyn) might team up to do him in.

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

The Lord Of The Nazgul says: No living man may hinder me and yet he was killed by Eowyn - a women! So not a man. This is probably just a crazy theory though.

[Jellinek]

A different viewpoint on the 'No living man may hinder me..', while Merry obviously hindered him (a bit):

It was the sword from Westernesse, with magic instilled, that actually harmed the Witch-King. So the King was wounded by a sword, whose maker is long gone, form a realm long gone.

Jellinek

[obloquy]

Great post, Jellinek. I think you may have hit the bullseye.

[Elrian]

A very good point indeed, but still Merry was of the halfling race not of men.

[mordor136]

Great point. I think Eowyn was being cocky.
She may not be a man but she is still human.

[Meriadoc1961]

I believe working in tandem did the Witch King in, with Merry's blow being the one which actually inflicted the most damage.

In response to one of the questions in the original post, I would say the Witch King did not think he was battling an Elf or a Dwarf because of the gear and war paraphanalia he saw about the group he was fighting. He heard the horns of Rohan blowing and left the gate, and he had already discomfited Theoden's guard and was reversing the fortunes of battle. So all in all, I believe he just assumed it was Men in the group of Rohan, and that would normally be a safe assumption to make.

[Elrian]

True, Eowyn he couldn't see was a woman, and Merry he just didn't see, or he may have grabbed him and took off.

[Fenrir]

When tLotN saw that Eowyn was a woman he was filled with doubt. If he had known beforehand he would have let his army kill her. As it was he couldn't back of without losing face with his men.

[O'Boile]

Eowyn killed him. Read the scene again. She remarks that the prophecy does not apply because she is a woman, and this scares the witch king. Clearly the prophecy meant this. Also with respect to Glorfindel, he could ride against the 9, and probably kill the witch king. He was the one who made the prophesy in the first place, so he probably could break it. I doubt it gave the witch king special powers, it was just some forsight by Glorfindel about how things would turn out. He never says that a man can't kill the witch king, just that it won't happen. (this is in the appendix I think)