Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lindale

08-13-2009, 02:01 PM

It is misleading, but no. Warriors and healers aren't women's cup of tea in Tolkien; Eowyn's shift from one to the other doesn't mean she "degraded" herself or such. I like to think of her shift as the transition of the whole atmosphere from defending themselves with the sword and shield to healing the wounds of battle. :D

Of course there are oppressed women, like Erendis and Rian (who was more pathetic, in my opinion). And I don't deny Eowyn had her oppressed moments too. (Like, the way she got stuck with a sick Theoden, and her powerlessness when Theodred died and her brother wasn't there. But remember that the good guys do have their share of oppressed moments too.) And of course there'll be arguments that perhaps Galadriel isn't really a feminine woman. But for now--I'm writing a paper due in three hours!--I'm gonna have to say, Eowyn's shift from shield-maiden to healer, her shift from Theoden's caretaker to a lover of Aragorn to slayer of the Witch King to Faramir's wife doesn't make her any less valuable, any less a hero (or heroine, if you will).

I don't think Tolkien had contempt for feminism like, say, August Strindberg. Think Morwen, Ancalime, Luthien (arguably!!). Tolkien may have a dearth of female protagonists, but that doesn't really prove an author's, to use your word, contempt for feminism.

(Someone please post the link to the Ooh La La Luthien thread please. I think it's pretty much related. Sorry I haven't got time!)

Rumil

08-13-2009, 02:55 PM

Here you go

Ooh la la Luthien (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2427&highlight=luthien)

I think on Eowyn, Tolkien's take on Boromir and Faramir is relevant. Both were warriors, Boromir the more renowned, but solely concerned with war and politics, whereas Faramir was more interested in lore and culture, though still an effective leader.

JRRT evidently liked Faramir a lot more, and thought him the better man for being a warrior when needed, but being a man of peace by preference. The same seems to go for Eowyn.

Lush

08-13-2009, 04:10 PM

LOL

How did I KNOW my thread was going to come up here?

Anyway, to answer your original question, Elmo, I think the answer is yes and no. Certainly Tolkien had his own ideas about women - some of which he ended up giving up on, from what I understand. I don't know what that means in the context of Eowyn. I personally don't like the fact that she became a healer, but I also like her words to Aragorn, at the end. Tolkien didn't quite tie her up with a pretty little bow. ;)

Nogrod

08-13-2009, 05:37 PM

One also needs to remember the times and the culture back then - and even if this discussion has been made I think a few times already - Tolkien's quite conservative views on many issues.

It is interersting indeed to see how PJ and his team had to artificially build up more central roles for females in the movies just because there was not enough in the books. I mean at the same time many of us (myself included) scorn the films for trying to please mass-audiences with all the horrible twists and turns of a blockbuster-film - the fact that Arwen has a lot larger role than in the books is just another facet of that same idea. So in a sense for example Legolas skating and Arwen substituting Glorfindel are the same thing: adjusting the story to today's requirements?

But coming to feminism the issue looks a lot more complicated I think. The thing we now know as feminism today is something which - even if it follows from the ideas of the utilitarians and the suffragettes of the 19th century - is basically a creation of the existentialists, 1960's, the various post-feminisms of the 80's & 90's etc. So obviously Tolkien couldn't have a contempt towards an idea much more radical he could have even think about... :)

And another issue that kind of comes to mind is making the difference between what an author hails as truth or goodness - or just the right order of things - in his own world-view, and what the people in the universe the author has created think about those issues. Surely Tolkien was looking at the great mythologies and looking at our history they tend to be "male-centered" stories. But he had also quite extensive knowledge of fex. the Kalevala which brings forward many independent and central female characters (like Galadriel in Tolkien's writings).

So it is a bit more complicated issue I'm afraid. Well, happy to be afraid of that as all simple things are usually quite boring... ;)

skip spence

08-14-2009, 02:38 AM

In Laws and customs of the Eldar Tolkien describes how high-Elven society looked upon gender-roles and such. I don't think it's unfair to assume that this is pretty much Tolkien's own ideal, especially since these morals are also indirectly expressed in many other parts of his tale.

He writes that the natural inclinations of the neri and nissi (men and women) were in some ways different, and that other differences were brought about by custom. Healing and caring about others were something nissi or women were more inclined to do, while the invention of new things and waging war was an area normally reserved for neri. I suppose Tolkien is saying that men and women (of the Noldor) generally had different comparative advantages, to borrow a term from economic theory.

However, Tolkien is very clear that these divisions were not set in stone, and that women might indeed be great warriors and men healers without there being anything wrong with that. He writes:

...all these things, and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi.

The thing is, I get the feeling that Tolkien, being a gentle sort of conservative, indeed though that a women's place is rather at home, healing, nursing and preserving. However, there is no sign (in his ME books) that he thinks less of women than of men because of this (or any other reason) or that he disapproves of strong women who step out of their traditional gender roles when this is necessary, like Eowyn. On the contrary, the sentiment I get is one of great admiration. But when the necessity is gone, and Eowyn is returning to more, well, "feminine pursuits" this is not regressing to a lesser state in any way. She does is freely without diminishing herself or bending her will to Faramir.

Rumil is spot on really:
I think on Eowyn, Tolkien's take on Boromir and Faramir is relevant. Both were warriors, Boromir the more renowned, but solely concerned with war and politics, whereas Faramir was more interested in lore and culture, though stil an effective leader.

JRRT evidently liked Faramir a lot more, and thought him the better man for being a warrior when needed, but being a man of peace by preference. The same seems to go for Eowyn.

And as Nogrod says, Tolkien is certainly not showing contempt for "feminism". That particular term is completely irrelevant in relation to these stories.

I don't think Tolkien had contempt for feminism like, say, August Strindberg
Ha! I'm glad Strindberg is off topic so I don't have to go there.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel

08-14-2009, 08:28 AM

Y'know, when I was a kid and first read LotR, I never thought that Eowyn was putting aside a traditionally male role and taking on a traditionally female one. I wasn't quite sure what I thought about it, but looking back now (especially after having gone through years of therapy to overcome the effects of being born into a highly abusive family, in which the controlling parent didn't allow anyone to choose their role in the family, much less in life), things are clearer. Eowyn in Rohan was chafing under what she perceived to be a thankless role that was forced upon her, that of staying home and caring for Theoden while her brother rode off to the excitement and freedom and glory of war. I don't think she was bothered by the "feminine role," since she genuinely loved and cared for Theoden, and had apparently done enough as a strong leader to make the people of Rohan love and respect her, and want her to lead and help defend them in the absence of the king. In this, she shows that she has both leadership and nurturing qualities. It was the whisperings of Wormtongue that made her discontent, with her apparent lot in life, and in herself (as Gandalf points out to Eomer while Eowyn lies stricken in the Houses of Healing). I don't think the tale of Eowyn shows a contempt for feminism, or a belief that women should "stay in their place." I believe it's a little morality play of its own about the evils of heart and soul that befall a person when they deny who and what they are in their own right. By rebelling against her life in Edoras and desiring to ride away to war, Eowyn was denying the part of her that truly was a healer and nurturer. Wormtongue had made her think that these parts of herself were mean and worthless, that the only thing worthwhile in life was the glory of battle; it was another way of weakening Rohan from within, as Denethor's use of the palantir weakened Gondor from within. When Eowyn says she will be a shield maiden no more, she is making a choice free of manipulation, and accepting a part of herself she had been rejecting. She never says she will cease being a leader, but she has now had a taste of the reality of war, and glory won on the battlefield, and thus can now make a choice concerning the direction of her life that is based on experience rather than conjecture. She is no longer denying her true self.

Or maybe she just decided the grass was greener on that side of the fence. :)

davem

08-15-2009, 01:27 AM

Lush

08-15-2009, 02:04 AM

I laughed so hard that I ruined my mascara. Thanks, davem.

A Little Green

08-15-2009, 02:30 AM

I think the answer to Elmo's question depends entirely on whether you read Éowyn's tale as a metaphor of a woman's life in general or as the story of one individual. I like to think that it was Éowyn's choice as an individual person and has nothing to do with what Tolkien thought a woman should choose. There is a part of me, though, that is bound to read a more general meaning to her choice. It can be read as "Éowyn was never truly happy playing a man but learns at last her true nature, finds her way to a nice man and a womanly profession and becomes happy as soon as she learns her true and proper place in society". That, I think, is a slightly disturbing way of interpretation but it pops into my mind nevertheless every time I read the LotR.

Actually, I find it rather amusing that I should be upset by someone choosing to be a healer rather than a killer, choosing peace over war. If the one making that choice was a man I would go "Wow, that's so cool of him, great choice!" but since it's a woman my first thought is "Oh crap why does she have to submit to oppressive gender roles in order to become happy?" Thinking rationally, turning from a fighter to a healer should be just as cool done by a woman as it would be if done by a man, and yet somehow I don't feel like it. Now where's the equality in that? :rolleyes:

Mithalwen

08-15-2009, 11:44 AM

Healing is not a specifically female thing - in Gondor women serve in the houses of healing but the herb-master is a man. I am sure that Eowyn intended to be a Doctor not a nurse....

Do you think less of Elrond because he chose to be a master of healing but let Glorfindel lead Rivendell's military force? Eowyn is not choosing between a male and female role but between life and death. Anyway she had nowhere left to go in achievement after wiping out the Lord of the Nazgul really... ;) Anyone would think that shield maiding were her sole vocation rather than a necessity borne of the desperate times and situation she was living in.

David Doughan gave a splendid talk on Women in Tolkien at Oxonmoot a few years back and it is clear that his attitude changed significantly - he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir.

My theory is that we can thank Priscilla for that .... having intelligent daughters makes a certain degree of feminism inevitable for the most chauvenist man since whatever they think about women in general is tempered by desiring the best for their daughters and that tends not to involve limiting their rights, education and life choices.

Priscilla is the possessor of a keen intellect, had a very good education for a women of her generation and became a probation officer which is hardly a typical female career even today. I am sure she and some of the outstanding female students Tolkien had must have influenced some of the antediluvian attitude Tolkien held about women - before he met many ;)

Tuor in Gondolin

08-15-2009, 02:09 PM

davem

08-15-2009, 02:51 PM

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny".:

No - come on, its clearly meant to be a satirical deconstruction of right-wing extremism 'n' all post-modern 'n' stuff - me 'n' Lush laughed at it anyway..... How do you seriously get from Eowyn's hopeless yearning for death in battle to denouncing Medicare as 'evil'? Besides, a careful reading of LotR clearly shows that Gondor has a National Health Service - "The Houses of Healing" = NHS: treatment free at the point of use- you notice no-one gets asked for their Insurance details before getting treated for the effects of the Black Breath! And I have to say that the Master of the Houses & Ioreth are clearly models for Kenneth Williams & Hattie Jaques in Peter Rogers seminal masterpiece Carry On Matron

Aiwendil

08-15-2009, 04:44 PM

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way.

he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

davem

08-16-2009, 03:23 AM

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way. .

'pplicability, innit? One reason, I suppose, why Tolkien went out of his way to stress that the story had no underlying meaning or message. It has always fascinated me how readers attempt to use Tolkien's writings to support their own religious or political stance. The author of that piece simply gets Eowyn wrong - she's not about what he says she's about. Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself. One has to understand the hopeless state she is in, seeking death because life is dead & grey & hopeless, & if she doesn't end it it will just go on & on & on. Coming from a warrior culture its natural that if she is seeking death she should seek it on the field - hopefully achieving some kind of renown in the process - but let's be under no illusion that what she wants is the death: the glory is just the icing on the cake. To present her as an 'ideal', someone women should aspire to be, is idiotic. The writer is simply hearing her words, not what she is saying.

Thus, the writer's final paragraph: Nevertheless, let us all be valiant like Eowyn; break free from the cages of welfare, universal health care, government-controlled Social Security, policies advocating the stealing of money from one group and giving it to another group who didn't earn it, and let all Americans boldly face our destiny with courage, individual effort and the power of God. borders on the inane - because Eowyn's story has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of Welfare or Medicare. One can relate Eowyn's story to the sufferings of contemporary individuals (as one can with the stories of many of the characters) but not to contemporary political arguments. Arguing that big government/welfare/Medicare = Mordor & therefore must be fought by free, right thinking individuals is as silly as arguing that multi-national drug companies & insurance companies = Mordor & government must protect all the people - not just the ones considered 'deserving' (There but for the Grace of God......) & ensure their health & well-being. And those comparisons are 'silly' not because one cannot validly argue the rightness & wrongness of either position, but because neither big government nor big business = Mordor.

Aiwendil

08-16-2009, 01:02 PM

Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself.

I quite agree. However, I think it would be a mistake, both over-simplistic and tending toward sexism, to see her words to Aragorn and her going into battle as completely wrong or mistaken, nothing but the symptoms of a sick soul. Yes, her hopelessness and desire for a swift death are in a sense 'sick'. But this does not deprive her words of their force or even their rightness. There is sexism in Rohan, as there is everywhere, and Eowyn is right to call it out. Indeed, it is in part the male-centric nature of Rohirric society that fuels her hopelessness in the first place. The Rohirric culture is one in which the honour and glory of battle are prized above just about all else, and of course women are not permitted to have those things. In dire times such as the War of the Ring, the men are permitted to go and face death themselves and by their own skills to overcome it or succumb to it; the women are forced to wait at home in uncertainty and compelled to entrust their lives to the deeds of others. That system is cruel to the women, and Eowyn's hopelessness is a natural result. She is perfectly justified in railing against her situation, just as Merry is.

Let's also not forget the result of Eowyn's 'sick' actions. Undoubtedly, the slaying of the Witch-king was a very good thing. Had Eowyn not gone into battle, it seems very likely that the outcome of the battle might have been different. A grim and hopeless desire for death or glory is in itself not good; but in war few things are. Eowyn's sickness ultimately helped to defeat Sauron.

That's why I don't see Eowyn's transformation in the Houses of Healing as anti-feminist. If you ask me, her personal healing has little to do with the fact that she is a woman and everything to do with the fact that she was a warrior. A man who was as desirous of a glorious death in battle would be in need of exactly the same kind of healing. I think, then, that Eowyn's sickness says something about what war does to people, and her recovery about the need to reclaim one's life, to forsake killing and destroying and take up healing and creating, after war.

davem

08-16-2009, 01:53 PM

The Rohirric culture is one in which the honour and glory of battle are prized above just about all else, and of course women are not permitted to have those things. In dire times such as the War of the Ring, the men are permitted to go and face death themselves and by their own skills to overcome it or succumb to it; the women are forced to wait at home in uncertainty and compelled to entrust their lives to the deeds of others. That system is cruel to the women, and Eowyn's hopelessness is a natural result. She is perfectly justified in railing against her situation, just as Merry is.

I wonder how 'male-centric' Rohan is - certainly it is in comparison to the modern Western ideal, but its quite an advance on what many women face in parts of the world even today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8204207.stm . And if we assume that Aragorn didn't just make up the term 'shield maiden' on the spot then we can also assume that it was not entirely uncommon for women to fight - perhaps part of Eowyn's frustration was that she couldn't take up that traditional female role due her duty of care for her uncle. I wouldn't necessarily assume that that the Rohirric system is 'cruel to women'. I'm sure Eowyn wasn't unique among the women of that country in being able to use a sword. In short, I don't believe that Eowyn is actually desiring something unique - just possibly something that was out of fashion. Or possibly not - maybe women did commonly fight, if only in defence of their homes. I wouldn't be surprised at the existence of a few shield maidens in Rohan or to discover incidents of Hillmen & Orcs attacking a settlement & suddenly finding themselves face to face with a woman or two in armour, wielding spear or sword.

Hence my feeling that her words are more of a cover up for her real desire - to go down in a blaze of glory & gain the respect & honour in death that she finds it impossible to obtain in life. She doesn't desire to fight to defend her people - she desires to die defending them.

Let's also not forget the result of Eowyn's 'sick' actions. Undoubtedly, the slaying of the Witch-king was a very good thing. Had Eowyn not gone into battle, it seems very likely that the outcome of the battle might have been different. A grim and hopeless desire for death or glory is in itself not good; but in war few things are. Eowyn's sickness ultimately helped to defeat Sauron. No. but should we judge her mental/spiritual motivation by the unintended result of her actions, or by her motivating desire? She didn't go to battle to defeat the Witch King & save the world, she went to get herself killed. That she did succeed in helping dispatch him is a nice bit of serendipity, but she had no idea that stabbing him would have any effect at all, let alone that it would finish him off.

Elmo

08-16-2009, 02:00 PM

Regarding previous shield-women, they may have defended their homes before, I don't think they've ever went to war. Isn't there a quote by Eomer(?) saying something to this effect?

Tuor in Gondolin

08-16-2009, 03:10 PM

There's also a bit of a comparison to Eowyn with other
peoples, when the women of the Wainriders help fend
off the woodsmen attacking their wagons and children
while their army is off attacking Gondor.
In 1899, the Wainriders planned an invasion of Gondor. At the same time, the enslaved Northmen intended to revolt against the Wainriders. Marhwini of the Eotheod learned of these plans and informed King Calimehtar of Gondor.
Calimehtar led an army to draw out the Wainriders while the enslaved Northmen attacked the Wainriders' settlements in Wilderland. But the settlements were guarded by the Wainriders' women, youths, and old men, and most of the rebelling Northmen were killed.

Apparently it's not nice to mess with Middle-earth women.

Aiwendil

08-16-2009, 03:19 PM

Davem -

You make a fair point about the possibility that other 'shield-maidens' existed in Rohan, despite the fact that we don't have any concrete evidence that they did.

To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that the Rohirrim were terribly misogynistic, and indeed as you say there are places in the world today where women have it much, much worse. I do think the culture is androcentric, but this isn't anything unique to Rohan. Indeed, I would argue that women have been subjugated to one degree or another in pretty much every human culture that has ever existed.

More to the point, however, I think that the existence or non-existence of other female warriors in Rohan is actually somewhat immaterial. The fact is that Eowyn is constrained by her society to a role that she finds hateful; she is denied the glory of battle that is so highly prized and compelled to entrust her fate to others. Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

davem

08-16-2009, 03:34 PM

Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

Inziladun

08-16-2009, 04:02 PM

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

To interject for a moment, I think there's a quote that supports davem's position. When Merry first saw Éowyn in her Dernhelm guise:

(Merry) caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.
ROTK The Muster of Rohan

Pitchwife

08-16-2009, 04:05 PM

Just a few quotes to support davem's argument -
Merry's first impression of Dernhelm (LotR Book V, The Muster of Rohan):
He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.
Referred back to in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields:
For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow; the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope.
And Aragorn in The Houses of Healing:
'I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley. But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring. Alas! for her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown.'

EDIT: x-ed with Inzil

Aiwendil

08-16-2009, 04:40 PM

I don't deny for an instant that Eowyn had a kind of 'soul sickness', that she was hopeless and sought death. Nor that it is good that she recovers from it - as it would be whether the sufferer were a man or a woman.

I just can't help but to feel that there is a rightness in her words to Aragorn. The constraints she feels are real (if they were not, there would be no need for her disguise), and regardless of her motive, she is right to question them. Moreover, as I see it, her 'sickness', her hopelessness, is in part caused by those very constraints. Is it so difficult to sympathize with her when she says:

Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?

or:
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.

I for one can't help but to be moved by these words, and even though she is grim and soul-sick and in need of healing, I cannot brush them aside as symptoms of an ill mind.

davem

08-17-2009, 12:19 AM

Er, well, right...quite surprised no-one picked up on my deliberate mistake a few posts back..And if we assume that Aragorn didn't just make up the term 'shield maiden' on the spot then we can also assume that it was not entirely uncommon for women to fight

Obviously, it wasn't Aragorn who used the term shieldmaiden at all, but Eowyn herself:'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of he House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?' so, er, just pay attention in future guys, ok...:o

Anyway, now that's cleared up, let's agree to never mention it again....

'kay...as I said, I don't dispute that Eowyn is speaking the truth about the state of of women in Rohan (or that's how a modern reader would interpret it - I don't know whether that's how Tolkien intended it to be understood, but we'll let that pass. What does interest me is Eowyn's plaintive 'may I not now spend my life as I will?', because 'spend' in this context has a double meaning - she may well be asking 'May I not live my life as I will?, but I don't think she is - I think she is asking 'May I not expend my life as I will?

Now, I think she believes what she's saying - that she wants to be like the boys & go to battle & win renown. But its not so simple. Her death wish is obvious to anyone looking at her (Merry for instance) but it may not be plain to her. She probably does fantasise about winning glory on the field, but she sees that 'glory' coming as a result of falling in combat. I honestly don't think she could conceive of not dying on the field. She wanted to die for the cause, yes, but the cause, however genuine, (& however complex - because I agree that the 'enemy' in her mind was not simply Sauron, it was also the restrictive male dominated society she lived in, & she sought liberation from both - & also from her own despair) was her justification for 'spending' her life.

And I have to rush off now - but I did want to bring up Eomer's words to Aragorn:

(Aragorn)When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. Or was it, maybe, a frost that had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die? Her malady begins far back before this day, does it not, Eomer?'

(Eomer)'I marvel that you should ask me, lord,' he answered. 'For I hold you blameless in this matter, as in all else; yet I knew not that Eowyn, my sister, was touched by any frost, until she first looked on you.

Implying that Aragorn had awakened some kind of hope of a larger life for her - & then dashed it, & that that had pushed her over the edge. I'm not so sure - I don't think Aragorn did anything that wouldn't have happened anyway. What his appearance & rejection did, to my mind, was tip her over the edge - but it was an edge that she had been getting closer & closer to, & would had happened anyway.

Mithalwen

08-20-2009, 03:21 AM

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Lindale

08-20-2009, 11:00 AM

Elmo

08-20-2009, 11:07 AM

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head. :D
In my opinion, Haleth was a terrible leader, who caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering to her people with her pride and her pointless quest to go ever more west. But that's another thread. :Merisu:

Aiwendil

08-20-2009, 01:58 PM

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

As I recall, the Rohirrim are probably 'cousins' of the House of Hador, rather, who never crossed over the Blue Mountains. But I cannot recall a source for that.

In any case, the Halethrim are undoubtedly another very important topic in dealing with women and feminism in Tolkien. As Elmo suggests, it would make an interesting thread in itself (I can't say I agree with Elmo's opinion of Haleth).

Mithalwen

08-20-2009, 02:19 PM

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

True but I think there was more to it - but I need to locate my notes to remember what. :cool: So I'll go and dig.

Faramir Jones

08-25-2009, 10:42 AM

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor. If, for example, an ordinary Rider ordered to stay in Rohan behaved the same way she did, he would quite rightly be seen as having deserted his post and disobeyed orders, and would suffer serious disciplinary action. Eowyn, however, did not.

While she is a member of the royal family, this would add to the obligation to behave properly, to set a standard of behaviour for the people. My own view is that she was very lucky in fighting the Witch-king and being very seriously wounded. This was, presumably, seen by many as a sufficient punishment for her desertion.

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions. :(

What do people think?

Lindale

08-25-2009, 11:04 AM

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions. :(

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

Eönwë

08-25-2009, 01:11 PM

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions. :(

What do people think?

I think that she was beyond caring about such things. She would have gone out looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means if she had survived the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Alfirin

08-25-2009, 04:41 PM

I for one, agree with the though that Eowyn's choice might have been considered serious deriliction of duty and indeed had she survived without wound she might have had a trial in her future (assuming Rohan uses the trial by jury system) In some ways this is another advantage to her marrying Faramir, it gets her out of Rohan while she is still seen as a big war heroine, before the ardor of the people cools and akward questions like the above get asked. Lucky for her nothing happened in her absense. Imagine the reception she would have gotten if in her absence Rohan really had been attacked (maybe by a large force of Dunlendings off to join Sauron at the battle who saw the King and co. departing and though this too good an opportunity to miss).

Since we are speculating a bit I had a though of my own. Does anyone else think its possible that this wasn't the first time Eowyn had played at being Durnhelm. No one in the muster seems to find it odd that a warrior called Durnhelm is riding with them a warrior who, if this was the first time, nobody would have ever seen before. More to the point, Theoden has no problem having Durnhelm as his standard bearer and right hand man in the battle itself. As I recall, Theoden (who as king presumably has the choice of anyone in the whole muster to ride with him in battle as standard bearer) specifically asks for Durnhelm which is a little odd for someone he would have never seen before (if you were picking someone to ride with you as your bearer woulnt you choose someone you knew was reliable in a pinch rather that a complete stranger?)

Rumil

08-25-2009, 05:20 PM

Hi all,

Alfirin, I think you'll find that Guthlaf was Theoden's standard-bearer, not Eowyn/Dernhelm.

Eowyn seems to have ridden to Gondor in Elfhelm's wing, then sneaked up to the back of Theoden's First Eored just before the first charge is going in (after gaining the outworks).

Though I must say I do think that something peculiar is going on here, does Elfhelm know that Dernhelm is Eowyn? He certainly knows all about 'Master Bag', and

there seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm

Not sure how far this goes! Is Elfhelm simply in on the plan to bring Merry along or is he in on the identity of Eowyn? If so, why not expose her?

Faramir Jones

08-26-2009, 04:20 AM

Thanks for all the responses!

Lindale:

You first said here that:

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

I think you're wrong; because in the sort of system of government Rohan had monarchs ruled as well as reigned; and matters concerning members of the royal family would be dealt with by the monarch.

Like a person in any position of considerable power, Eowyn's uncle or brother would be making decisions that they would find unpleasant. That would include sitting in judgement on close relatives, such as Eowyn. While there's no doubt that they genuinely loved her, it would still be their duty as monarchs to judge her bad behaviour.

Second, you said that:

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

You're wrong in saying that it was Hama's choice to make her regent. Hama suggested her appointment to Theoden, who followed his advice and chose to make her regent. The appointment appeared to be a popular choice, Eowyn being regarded as a woman of ability.

I suggest that the fact of her desertion might rebound on Theoden, or his historical reputation if he died in battle. He was, after all, the one who appointed her as regent; and like any one who appoints unqualified people who turn out badly, would take any blame.

Eonwe:

I agree with your suggestion that had Eowyn survived the battle, she would still be 'looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means'.

Alfirin:

I'd reached the same conclusion as you that by her marriage to Faramir, Eowyn became a Gondorian, and was conveniently outside the influence of the law of Rohan. I agree completely with what you said here:

it gets her out of Rohan while she is still seen as a big war heroine, before the ardor of the people cools and awkward questions like the above get asked. Lucky for her nothing happened in her absense. Imagine the reception she would have gotten if in her absence Rohan really had been attacked (maybe by a large force of Dunlendings off to join Sauron at the battle who saw the King and co. departing and though this too good an opportunity to miss).

There is still the issue, as you and Rumil have said, about what kind of understanding was between Elfhelm and Dernhelm. While there are explanations for why Eowyn's desertion had no legal consequences for her, I'm more surprised that Elfhelm's giving aid and comfort to a deserter appeared to have no such consequences for him. After all, he is the equivalent of a senior officer, of whom much would be expected.

Alfirin

08-26-2009, 05:04 AM

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some history between Eowyn and Elfhelm. I don't mean romatically but maybe in more of a mentor role. Maybe it was Elfhelm who taught her swordsmanship (I don't seem to recall any mention of how old Elfhelm was if he is a well seasoned warrior in his mid to late 50's or even early 60's, he could have already been a good strong warrior (and as such, a potential effective teacher for Eowyn) when Eowyn was a child. This would also fit with her joining Elfhelm's group, it would be the onle place where, if she was unmasked on the way she probably could get away with continuing on the ride rather than being sent home.

Inziladun

08-26-2009, 05:22 AM

Rumil

08-26-2009, 06:30 PM

OK,

lots of what-ifs here, but,

Suppose Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn. Why allow her to go? This might bring us back to the original question!

For some reason I've always though of Elfhelm as a youngish chap, 20s-30s anyway, no idea why!

Anyway. Imagine that Elfhelm was a friend of Eowyn (even just possibly rather liked her in a romantic way!), and of course the top nobles would all know one-another pretty well. Why be sympathetic to Eowyn's wish to ride to battle? He probably wasn't aware of her deathwish. Perhaps this gives us some insight into Rohirric gender roles with respect to warfare.

Did Elfhelm feel that it was Eowyn's 'right' to go into battle as a shieldmaiden, should she choose to do so? I could certainly imagine a friend of Eomer doing the same for him if he had been 'left on the bench'.

Perhaps this was based on some old saga or song or something that provided legendary precedent, or a real incident from Rohan's past? Maybe Elfhelm had lost hope too and thought it was more glorious for Eowyn to go down fighting in a hopeless battle than wait for Rohan to be over-run?

Eomer I think later denies that any other women of Rohan have ridden to battle, but did he personally check all 6000 'men'? - He'd have got some funny looks! :)

Lalwendë

09-01-2009, 03:49 PM

Well for one I don't think making any kind of statement against women's rights in the modern world via the medium of Lord of the Rings would even have been on Tolkien's radar - too often we find political hobbyhorses and latch them onto his work and they just don't prove to be there.

Eowyn's situation and how it came into being is much more interesting than some odious allegory of mysogyny as a matter of fact ;)

How did she come to be there in the first place? She was originally conceived as a romantic foil for Aragorn before Arwen raised her head, and as such I suspect we'd have seen her in a very different role. She remained, however, and assumed a more complex part.

She's a member of a royal household and high status, and second in line to the throne. So the request that she stay behind to govern Rohan is one she might well have expected even if she were male, following the traditional 'heir and a spare' rule of thumb. Yes, it could have been that Eomer would return and take up his own place again, but it was also likely she would have been left a Queen in charge of a realm stripped of menfolk - a huge responsibility to bear. So I don't think that the request she stay behind was a cut and dried case of 'sexism'.

Her sword skills have evidently been gained previously as you just don't pick up a blade one day and instinctively know what to do with it, that only happens in films ;) It's not entirely unfeasible that Rohirrim women knew some basic skills in self defence and basic combat - they would have homesteads to defend after all when their men were on military service. And Tolkien isn't shy of throwing us a few powerful, feisty females when he wants to, so the argument he hated the thought of a 'shield maiden' on principle doesn't cut any ice with me.

But then my final thought about Eowyn is this reason why she decides to go haring off into battle. Ostensibly, it's because of a horrible case of unrequited love for Aragorn and her sense of desperation, but I always see more to it than that. She loves him as an incredibly idealised figure, admires the hope for military success he brings, is stirred by the promise more of victory than of romance.

Eowyn in this view isn't even a woman at all, she's the young Tommy, stirred by news reports and posters of Lord Kitchener into signing up and taking the King's Shilling. Signing up for the trenches despite knowing that death is almost inevitable. She's the boy warrior following the idealised captain over the top despite being ordered to stay behind. The kind of figure Tolkien, sadly, will have recognised all too well.

skip spence

09-02-2009, 08:56 AM

She's a member of a royal household and high status, and second in line to the throne. So the request that she stay behind to govern Rohan is one she might well have expected even if she were male, following the traditional 'heir and a spare' rule of thumb. Yes, it could have been that Eomer would return and take up his own place again, but it was also likely she would have been left a Queen in charge of a realm stripped of menfolk - a huge responsibility to bear. So I don't think that the request she stay behind was a cut and dried case of 'sexism'.

Good to see you back posting, Lalwendë!

Wasn't there an almost parallel incident to this in the appendixes when a (male) heir to the throne of Gondor was ordered to remain in Osgilath (or Minas Tirith) but came to the battle anyway in disguise, only to get himself killed, along with the king and the rest of his sons?

Anyway, I don't think Eowyn was second or even third in line for the throne. Rohan and Gondor were patriarchal societies and only male descendants were considered heirs proper. She was only a temporary deputy and her case of "sexism" was perhaps not cut and dried, but it was a strong one nonetheless. It's been a while since I read the dialogue between Aragorn and Eowyn but as far as I can remember it's very balanced and hard to call. When Aragorn tells her to stay he makes many good points, but she too comes up with strong counter-arguments.

Also, doing the wrong thing is usually (or always) punished in LotR, but Eowyn is rewarded with both the glory she sought and with the happiness she thought was lost forever. Therefore I don't believe Tolkien had her wilfully ride off to battle in order to make a negative example of it.

Lalwendë

09-02-2009, 09:54 AM

Anyway, I don't think Eowyn was second or even third in line for the throne. Rohan and Gondor were patriarchal societies and only male descendants were considered heirs proper. She was only a temporary deputy and her case of "sexism" was perhaps not cut and dried, but it was a strong one nonetheless. It's been a while since I read the dialogue between Aragorn and Eowyn but as far as I can remember it's very balanced and hard to call. When Aragorn tells her to stay he makes many good points, but she too comes up with strong counter-arguments.

There isn't any precedent to judge it from in Rohan, but in Numenor in the better days women took their place as rightful heirs and I can't see Rohan being different if, as it appears, Eowyn was considered capable enough to be trained in the sword to a lesser or greater degree.

Even under primogeniture the daughters of a King never relinquish the right to be heirs, they just take second place to their brothers - which results in interesting conflicts at times - see Matilda Vs Stephen and The Anarchy in the 12th century!

It's a good topic to look up though and see what rules were in place in various kingdoms at different times.

skip spence

09-02-2009, 10:11 AM

There isn't any precedent to judge it from in Rohan, but in Numenor in the better days women took their place as rightful heirs and I can't see Rohan being different if, as it appears, Eowyn was considered capable enough to be trained in the sword to a lesser or greater degree.
...
It's a good topic to look up though and see what rules were in place in various kingdoms at different times.
I'm aware that Numenor had reigning queens but that wasn't that an alteration in the laws Aldarion made to avoid having to snuggle with Erendis again while still keeping the sceptre in the family? And wasn't this practice discontinued in Gondor later on? It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up, but not by me as I don't have time at present. Shouldn't even be writing this...

Lindale

09-02-2009, 10:33 AM

It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up

The father-son bloodline of the Stewards did not fail, from Mardil to Denethor. Apparently the Stewards learned from the Kings' mistakes :D

I agree with Skippy with the points on Aldarion and the ruling Queens. But though in Gondor the female line was disregarded, in Rohan if the female bloodline was sort of next-in-line. Thus we have Helm Hammerhand's nephew Frealaf being king after him; and Eomer after Theoden.

Perhaps the Gondorians shouldn't have been so stupid as to disregard the female line... for princesses could bear potential heirs for their crowned brothers too. That is the thing hard to believe, that the line of Anarion truly ended, i.e., wouldn't a male heir via a female descendant have counted? This for me is sexism, Salic Law-style.

Mnemosyne

09-02-2009, 12:43 PM

The father-son bloodline of the Stewards did not fail, from Mardil to Denethor. Apparently the Stewards learned from the Kings' mistakes :D

Making sure that the Steward couldn't leave the realm must have helped as well in that regard.

Perhaps the Gondorians shouldn't have been so stupid as to disregard the female line... for princesses could bear potential heirs for their crowned brothers too. That is the thing hard to believe, that the line of Anarion truly ended, i.e., wouldn't a male heir via a female descendant have counted? This for me is sexism, Salic Law-style.

I think this was the exact problem with Arvedui's claim on the Southern Throne. If there had been a stronger tradition of allowing for the female line to count, presumably his claim would have been stronger. However, I think the rejection of that claim was more based on the fact that people in power in the South didn't want a Northern king at this point than any sort of sexism. They used such reasoning to further their own ends, and at a great detriment to themselves.

What is interesting is that even though sometimes Tolkien's societies do not honor the role of females in succession, Tolkien himself does. The line of Elendil came from the line of the Kings of Numenor because of a female (older female from before women were allowed to rule? I don't remember). Heck, I don't even remember the name of Silmarien's husband: she essentially started the line of the Faithful who ended up becoming Kings in Gondor. And again we have the case of Firiel--you could argue that not allowing her blood to validate Arvedui's claim was a result of the corruption of Gondorian society at this point and ended up hurting them in the long run.

Then we also have the interesting case of inheritance in the Shire, where after marriage husband and wife are regarded as one legal unit with joint ownership, allowing the survivor of the two to inherit all legal and economic power regardless of sex.

Bringing this back to Rohan, I think the fact that the people are willing to accept Eowyn as a ruler shows that their society is relatively healthy. True, it's not something that Theoden immediately thinks of (Whom do you trust? The house of Eorl! ...But... I need Eomer in battle!), but other people think of it, put the idea forward, and don't seem to care about the fact that Eowyn is a woman. It's more important that she's part of the right bloodline.

Which means that her dereliction had more to do with personal reasons than any sort of feminism, although of course when you're soul-sick you can use any sort of reasoning to justify something that's wrong and I'm sure some of that reasoning was "they don't want me to come along because I'm a woman!". Well... not really...

Inziladun

09-02-2009, 01:13 PM

I think this was the exact problem with Arvedui's claim on the Southern Throne. If there had been a stronger tradition of allowing for the female line to count, presumably his claim would have been stronger. However, I think the rejection of that claim was more based on the fact that people in power in the South didn't want a Northern king at this point than any sort of sexism. They used such reasoning to further their own ends, and at a great detriment to themselves..

I'd agree that any prejudice against Arvedui's claim deriving from a female heritage through Fíriel was relatively immaterial to the reason his claim was disallowed. Arvedui didn't rely soley on that as a basis for his claim: he was also a direct descendant of Isildur. The connexion to Gondor through Fíriel was just something that should have strengthened his claim even further.
The argument of Gondor against him appears to be based upon the idea that Isildur had handed off Gondor to Anárion, and Gondor could order things as it liked. Tradition, and probably pride, held sway more than common sense.

What is interesting is that even though sometimes Tolkien's societies do not honor the role of females in succession, Tolkien himself does. The line of Elendil came from the line of the Kings of Numenor because of a female (older female from before women were allowed to rule? I don't remember). Heck, I don't even remember the name of Silmarien's husband: she essentially started the line of the Faithful who ended up becoming Kings in Gondor.

I don't know the name of Silmarien's husband either. But she was the eldest child of Tar-Elendil, and indeed the apparent beginner of the Lords of Andúnië, of which came Elendil and Isildur. It's rather ironic that Gondor 'forgot' that. ;)

Lalwendë

09-02-2009, 02:44 PM

I'm aware that Numenor had reigning queens but that wasn't that an alteration in the laws Aldarion made to avoid having to snuggle with Erendis again while still keeping the sceptre in the family? And wasn't this practice discontinued in Gondor later on? It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up, but not by me as I don't have time at present. Shouldn't even be writing this...

I've looked up Numenor, and the rule was one of primogeniture until Aldarion changed it so that daughters could inherit, even if they had younger brothers - of course he only had a daughter, Ancalime. Telperien was a Queen with a younger brother, and his child succeeded the childless Queen.

As for Gondor, I can find no instance of a Queen inheriting, as there were always sons. However when it comes to Firiel, she ought to have inherited had women been allowed to do so, as there were no other siblings.

Of course her husband Arvedui made the claim on Gondor but was denied. Maybe his claim was the cause of Firiel being rejected too, we don't know, but it was odd to seek out a fairly distant royal cousin in Gondor to inherit (though it has real world precedent in the choice of George I to succeed Anne, just to avoid having a Catholic inherit!).

He had a blood right to the kingship, though it was rather a late claim! It might be rather like that Aussie bloke who is the bloodline descendant of the Plantagenets via George, Duke of Clarence making a claim on the UK throne - he would have a bloodline right to it but imagine the mayhem it might create! :D

Mithalwen

09-30-2009, 12:58 PM

Elfhelm from the evidence of UT is a pragmatist and read the situation most accurately at the Fords. He does not seem to be the type to be swayed by sentiment or to be a slave to orders when it contradicted his judgement.. he followed Theodred's summons s bypassing the King.

I find Elfhelm one of the fascinating minor characters .. you can get quite a vivid picture from quite a little.

Clearly Elfhelm and Eowyn would have known each other well. He had been marshal (Though not Marshal of the Mark) at Edoras since 3012 when Eowyn was sixteen. With her Uncle increasingly under the malign influence of Saruman via Grima, and her cousin and brother based at Helms Deep and Aldburg respectively as the strongholds of their Marks, it is quite likely that Elfhelm was a confidant and perhaps protector from the unwelcome attentions of Wormtongue.

We know that Erkenbrand was left in military command of Rohan because he was an older man of dignity and authority. Grimbold was his nephew and there seems to be a parity between him and Elfhelm - Elfhelm doens not override him at the Fords, Grimbold does not assume control of the forces of Edoras. If you work on the basis that Erkenbrand was an approximate contemporary of Theoden and Elfhelm a generation younger then they are likely to be mid thirties to mid forties - contemporaries of Theodred which may be why when Grima spread his poison they were inclined to follow his lead rather than his father's. I would think it unlikely that one not of the blood royal would rise to the rank of Marshal much before 30 no matter how able they were so that ties in with the date that Elfhelm took up his post at Edoras.

I have a theory - though not one I can prove that Elfhelm may have been a kinsman of Theodred on his mother's side, The Rohirrim tend to have similar names in their families and since Hild was the sister of Helm I just wondered if Elfhelm might be kin to Elfhild... Not necessarily brother ..if he were the king's brother in law it would surely be mentioned, maybe a cousin. A fanciful idea I know but not totally implausible. In the structure of the story he would then be a kind of foil for Imrahil (another of my beloved minor characters).

To belatedly get back to the point. I think Elfhelm was astute enough to know that what might befall Eowyn at home could be as bad or worse than a battlefield . Maybe he knew she would find a way anyway and so the best thing would be to have her where he could keep an eye on her. Maybe he had some premonition - a disobedience but like so many a necessary one for the eventual success of the quest.

Lalaith

09-30-2009, 01:36 PM

With regard to the normalcy or abnormalcy of Eowyn's behaviour...lets not forget one thing. She was not unique, she had a cultural prototype instantly recognisable to readers who knew Norse literature.

This word, shield-maiden, existed for centuries before Tolkien put it in the mouth of Eowyn. The Germanic cultures of northern Europe had shieldmaidens aplenty. I have to say that my response, when I first read the story, was similar to Ibrinidil's...I thought of her as a human being damaged by grief, love and despair, rather than fighting a pre-determined gender role.

But giving this question a purely critical response, I have to assume that Tolkien must really have loved Eowyn as a creation - in the same way that I think Shakespeare loved Beatrice, and grew to love Lear. 'Dernhelm the Young' in his/her glory on the fields of Pelennor is possibly the finest literary moment in the whole of the trilogy, and you can't write like that about a character you don't love.

Mithalwen

09-30-2009, 01:50 PM

I think you are right Lalaith... in on of the HoME volumes he decides Aragorn is too old and grim for her. Will go dig it up..I can't remember if Faramir made his unanticipated appearance in the tale before or after.

Mithalwen

09-30-2009, 02:40 PM

There is sexism in Rohan, as there is everywhere, and Eowyn is right to call it out. Indeed, it is in part the male-centric nature of Rohirric society that fuels her hopelessness in the first place. .

I would not disagree with any of this post other that to qualify the everywhere probably does not include Lorien...;) but it does make me wonder if the fact that the rulers of Gondor and Rohan and their heirs are all "Men without women" intensifies the effect. Obviously Rohan is a male centric culture but even the domestic environment is overwhelmingly male. There are no doubt women around but not perhaps ones Eowyn can truly confide in - no mother, no sister (in-law), no aunt, no female cousin or cousin's wife. It may have made no difference if Rohan had still had a queen but many queens consort in our own history have managed to wield a great deal of power indirectly. Eowyn has no positive female role models. She is often decribed in very similar terms to Galadriel who does have power - though also limited.

I think it reinforces the atmosphere of futility and despair that neither Theodred or Boromir at forty had done their duty by posterity and ensured the succession.
I remember something that in latter days the lords of Gondor thought more of their ancestors than their sons (a trend bucked by Imrahil given four children and a grandson as a good example to the others perhaps ;) ).

CSteefel

09-30-2009, 03:41 PM

... but it does make me wonder if the fact that the rulers of Gondor and Rohan and their heirs are all "Men without women" intensifies the effect. Obviously Rohan is a male centric culture but even the domestic environment is overwhelmingly male. There are no doubt women around but not perhaps ones Eowyn can truly confide in - no mother, no sister (in-law), no aunt, no female cousin or cousin's wife. It may have made no difference if Rohan had still had a queen but many queens consort in our own history have managed to wield a great deal of power indirectly. Eowyn has no positive female role models. She is often decribed in very similar terms to Galadriel who does have power - though also limited.

I agree with all of this, except perhaps about Galadriel. Galadriel seems to be an example of an empowered woman, beyond almost anybody else (she certainly shows up her husband by showing both better knowledge of what was going on when the Fellowship arrived, and also a more noble sympathy for the people involved, for example, Gimli)...

The situation in Rohan at the time of the story is probably an extreme case, both because Rohan seems to be a very male-dominated, military oriented culture, but also because there are no female role models around. While Eowyn failed to fulfill her obligations as ruler of Rohan in the absence of Theoden and Eomer (and as some have pointed out, this is a significant job, especially if the battle at Gondor had been lost), I cannot help feeling that she had some kind of premonition that she had a role to play in the battle. In other words, it wasn't just a matter of wanting to be there in the thick of the battle. The role of course is the defeat of the Witch King, which is a pivotal part of the battle that she was in some way destined to play a part. Merry also fulfills a destiny here as well, if somewhat more reluctantly.

While Eowyn's change of heart later might(?) be viewed as just coming around to the view that it might not be so bad to be somebody's wife, I also cannot help feeling that she also realized that she had played the historic role (defeating the WK) that she was destined for. I suspect that she had no regrets about her decision to join the battle before the Gates of Minas Tirith...

Mithalwen

10-01-2009, 05:48 AM

Ah I knew I should have qualified the Galadriel comment - the limitation I refer to is not due to her gender specifically but at the time of the War of the rings (the point when the time of the elves is ending) perhaps to her Elvishness. She has her power in her small realm, and can withstand as long as the Dark lord himself does not go there. Hers is a passive strength - able to resist the growing darkness but not challenge openly. She dare not take the one ring. In this she is no different to the male leaders of her people ..Elrond, Cirdan. Individual elves have awesome power but they are few and against the overwhelming forces of Sauron they are not enough "Even if you chose for us an elf lord such as Glorfindel..." . So mighty though Galadriel be (and she and Eowyn and Idril are my favourite female characters - Tolkien may have deified the brunettes but it is the blondes who have spirit, leadership qualities and initiative!) I do wonder if Lorien became a hutch as much as Eowyn's bower.

ElanorFB

10-01-2009, 11:31 AM

I think Tolkien and women are somewhat difficult. But he makes up for it with Eowyn and Galadriel. Galadriel is strong and obviously beautiful and in control in her relationship.

With Eowyn, yes she pines for Aragorn, but hey, she liked him. I think that's a fair reaction without having to be dependent on men.

Faramir Jones

10-02-2009, 08:40 AM

Lalwendë

10-02-2009, 04:17 PM

Here's an interesting comment Tolkien made about Eowyn, in a letter of around 1963:

Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.

(Letters, Letter 244.)

As has been said, she was presumably trained on how to fight, but expected to do so only defensively, something for which there was historical precedent among the Rohirrim's ancestors.

Tolkien had had some military training, but did not see himself as becoming a professional soldier. As we know, however, he and so many other young men, quite civilian, became servicemen due to World War I.

Tolkien said that he was not a 'good officer', and said that the character of Faramir was the character in LotR most like him, but with far more courage. Like him, two of his sons became servicemen, this time due to World War II.

One can see a resemblance between Eowyn and Tolkien's generation, as well as that of his sons'. Her desire to be 'a shieldmaiden no longer' seems similar to that of many servicemen like Tolkien and later his sons, who wanted to leave soldiering behind now that the war was won, and get on with their disrupted civilian lives. It's no more different than Sam Gamgee, Merry Brandybuck, and Pippin Took after they returned to the Shire, getting back to ordinary, civilian life, marrying and having families.

I agree, Eowyn was very much like the 'Tommy', idealising the fight and the struggle, and even idealising the Captain she followed. And afterwards, in the shocking light of day, having survived, keen to get straight back to an ordinary life.

It's also true that Faramir is very much like the reality of the men who fought in WWII. He resigned himself to his Duty, he did his duty to the very best of his ability, but he did not relish it and he was pleased to be released of it, though still retaining pride in having taken his part.

It's interesting how Faramir wants to make a 'garden' of Ithilien and Eowyn also desires this kind of life:

'I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,' she said; 'and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'

Compare that with much of the Art produced during and following the Great War, so much of it infused with this emotional sense of loss and longing for a pastoral England that if it had not already gone, was fast going. Vaughan Williams wrote his Pastoral Symphony and revised Fantasia on a Theme by Tallis; Elgar's Cello Concerto; Holst's Planets Suite; Stanley Spencer's murals; and of course, Tolkien's very earliest writings. I could probably gather up some more examples, because I've been looking into this lately...

There was also the Modernist approach of course, but many people were also busily creating elegiac, more backwards looking pieces of music, art and literature. So Faramir and Eowyn wishing to leave the memory of war behind isn't unusual, and in fact it's what their creator did.

davem

10-03-2009, 12:15 AM

It was a bayonet-school of instruction, and "O. C. Bayonets"--Col.
Ronald Campbell--was giving a little demonstration. It was a curiously
interesting form of exercise. It was as though the primitive nature in
man, which had been sleeping through the centuries, was suddenly
awakened in the souls of these cockney soldier--boys. They made sudden
jabs at one another fiercely and with savage grimaces, leaped at men
standing with their backs turned, who wheeled round sharply, and
crossed bayonets, and taunted the attackers. Then they lunged at the
hanging sacks, stabbing them where the red circles were painted. These
inanimate things became revoltingly lifelike as they jerked to and
fro, and the bayonet men seemed enraged with them. One fell from the
rope, and a boy sprang at it, dug his bayonet in, put his foot on the
prostrate thing to get a purchase for the bayonet, which he lugged out
again, and then kicked the sack.

"That's what I like to see," said an officer. "There's a fine
fighting-spirit in that lad. He'll kill plenty of Germans before he's
done."

Col. Ronald Campbell was a great lecturer on bayonet exercise. He
curdled the blood of boys with his eloquence on the method of attack
to pierce liver and lights and kidneys of the enemy. He made their
eyes bulge out of their heads, fired them with blood-lust, stoked up
hatred of Germans--all in a quiet, earnest, persuasive voice, and a
sense of latent power and passion in him. He told funny stories--one,
famous in the army, called "Where's 'Arry?"

It was the story of an attack on German trenches in which a crowd of
Germans were captured in a dugout. The sergeant had been told to blood
his men, and during the killing he turned round and asked, "Where's
'Arry? . . . 'Arry 'asn't 'ad a go yet."

'Arry was a timid boy, who shrank from butcher's work, but he was
called up and given his man to kill. And after that 'Arry was like a
man-eating tiger in his desire for German blood.

He used another illustration in his bayonet lectures. "You may meet a
German who says, 'Mercy! I have ten children.' . . . Kill him! He
might have ten more." http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext02/nicbt10.htm

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons for war is that a great many people get off on it...... (or that Eowyn says she will no longer "take joy only in the songs of slaying."

CSteefel

10-03-2009, 08:57 PM

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons for war is that a great many people get off on it...... (or that Eowyn says she will no longer "take joy only in the songs of slaying."
This could have been part of what motivated in Eowyn, but I think this is also what she got over...

More important for her in the end was to avoid
'A cage', she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'

Alfirin

12-10-2009, 08:32 AM

I have a theory - though not one I can prove that Elfhelm may have been a kinsman of Theodred on his mother's side, The Rohirrim tend to have similar names in their families and since Hild was the sister of Helm I just wondered if Elfhelm might be kin to Elfhild... Not necessarily brother ..if he were the king's brother in law it would surely be mentioned, maybe a cousin. A fanciful idea I know but not totally implausible. In the structure of the story he would then be a kind of foil for Imrahil (another of my beloved minor characters).

The recent thread on names has got me thinking something, do you think it is possible that one of the reasons Eowyn chose the name "Durnhelm" was that because of the simlilarity of names tradtion it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

Legate of Amon Lanc

12-10-2009, 08:47 AM

The recent thread on names has got me thinking something, do you think it is possible that one of the reasons Eowyn chose the name "Durnhelm" was that because of the simlilarity of names tradtion it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

Well, I think it's the last thing you said - "helm" is just a common ending. There have been probably dozens of soldiers in the muster who had names like Windhelm or Torthelm and nobody was asking them if they are not perchance the Marshal's cousins. It would be about the same thing as if you kept asking every Charlie whether he is not perchance related to the Prince of Wales. It would not have occured to anybody to even think about that.

Mithalwen

12-15-2009, 12:29 PM

it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

I think her choice may have been a tribute to him or a joke but I think the text makes it pretty clear that Elfhelm's men know exactly who Dernhelm was - it speaks of "an understanding"between them. Also presumably since Elfhelm was the Marshal based at Edoras, his eored would also have been and known Eowyn. Tolkien's names are seldom without significance. There aren't really enough Rohirric names to get a definitive pattern but it may be more than coincidence that the Rohan's great generals Elfhelm and Erkenbrand "Precious Sword") have suitably military names whereas the humble errand rider is Ceorl. The element Theod- may have only been used in the Royal house (or by very aspirational parents!).

PrinceOfTheHalflings

02-18-2010, 03:28 PM

Inziladun

02-18-2010, 03:48 PM

What I'm wondering is:

How did she get away with it at all? She was left behind in order to be the acting ruler of Rohan - but she disappeared. How was she not instantly missed by those left behind in Edoras? Why did someone not immediately ride at full speed after Theoden to inform him that the Lady Eowyn was missing?

In any case, what did the people of Rohan think when their ruler went missing? Any thoughts?

Presumably Éowyn would have designated someone before she left to stand in for her. Maybe the former condition of Théoden under the influence of Wormtongue was known to the general population in Rohan, and thus Éowyn's forced role as a nursemaid was known also. In that case, the people could well have taken pity on her, and being a fairly warlike people, understood her desire to stand or fall in battle. Perhaps the severity of the situation too lent her some degree of leeway from the people. They were well aware the host of Théoden stood a real chance of not returning, and it would be only a matter of time before they all were rooted out and enslaved. I don't think they would have wished the House of Eorl to fall to that personally.

mark12_30

02-19-2010, 07:16 AM

I personally don't like the fact that she became a healer, but I also like her words to Aragorn, at the end. Tolkien didn't quite tie her up with a pretty little bow. ;)

Lush m'dear, miss you, long time no see.

Quick questions only partway thru the thread: When the war is over, what's a royal sheildmaiden to do? And King Eomer is wise to her now. If there are skirmishes with leftover orcs on the border, we'll send some good lads to handle it, but as for you, sis, Sorry-- put the horse back in the barn.

And once she moves to Gondor, do you really think Faramir would watch and shrug as she armed and rode off?

IMO, being a healer is self-sacrificial, not for the timid, and requires courage. It's a paradigm shift. Aragorn, after the battle, put in his time as a healer, and it was an undeniable sign of royalty and majesty.

Mithalwen

02-19-2010, 07:17 AM

Erkenbrand was left in military charge. I suspect Elfhelm tipped him the wink.

mark12_30

02-20-2010, 01:31 PM

Or, Aragorn and the topic of unpraised valour

This discussion continues to weigh on my mind:

‘A time may come soon,’ said he, ‘when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.’

And she answered: ‘All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. ’

I grant the weight of Eowyn's words;. "Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?"

But neither do I disagree with what Aragorn said, nor feel that he had no right to say it.

From The Council of Elrond:‘If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dúnedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?

‘And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. “Strider” I am to one fat man who lives within a day’s march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.'

And again:

From "Strider": ‘It would take more than a few days, or weeks, or years, of wandering in the Wild to make you look like Strider,’ he answered. ‘And you would die first, unless you are made of sterner stuff than you look to be.’

On his behalf, Aragorn had every right, I think, to talk about "valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds .... Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised."

Lindale

02-21-2010, 11:36 AM

A very quick thought regarding feminism, Eowyn, Erendis, and women-left-at-home-when-men-go-to-war:

As mark notes from the book: ‘All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. ’

And as Erendis says to Ancalime: 'Thus it is, Ancalime, and we cannot alter it. For men fashioned Numenor: men, those heroes of old that they sing of; of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain. Numenor was to be a rest after war. But if they were weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war. Thus it is; and we are set here among them. But we need not assent. If we love Numenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it. We also are daughters of the great, and we have wills and courage of our own. Therefore do not bend, Ancalime. Once bend a little, and they will bend you further until you are bowed down. Sink your roots into the rock, and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves.'

Hopelessness seemed to be the lot of women for ages, IRL and in Tolkien, but to be put that way by two, well, aristocratic women but from different times... These two just fought it. Perhaps that's why they are so noteworthy: very few women in Tolkien achieve so much. Sometimes I think Erendis seems stronger, because she interpellates Ancalime so strongly with this ideology, but loses her daughter's love, which is all she has that is worthwhile; whereas Eowyn lives to see her moment of glory realized after killing the Witch-King. On the other hand, I too do not like Eowyn becoming a healer... Not that I think healers don't have a special place in their societies, but well, aren't women healers allowed in Minas Tirith but they never are soldiers? So it's still a second-level designation. Eowyn was put in her 'proper' place--ideologically (she will be a shield-maiden no longer) and literally (she retires from military service forever).

Mister Underhill

02-22-2010, 01:06 PM

One thing that comes up for me as I read the oft-repeated expressions of disappointment in the fact that Éowyn lays down her blade and becomes a healer is that it somehow seems upside down. Shouldn't we feel happy for her (or for any character, regardless of gender) who is able to find peace and love and retire from death and slaying? I guess maybe this is the reason why endings to fantasy stories, or I guess any story, are often a little bittersweet, even if they're happy endings. We'd feel the same way if Indiana Jones ever hung up his whip on his study wall, or if Conan ever decided to rule from his throne-room and leave the slaying to his minions. I'm not sure this has anything to do with sexism though, and maybe more to do with what we get out of the adventures and exploits of the characters that we identify with and fantasize about being.

Another thing I wonder about is how many people in Middle-earth are really professional warriors anyway. My sense is, not that many. No doubt Gondor has a standing army given their geography. But elsewhere, it seems that battle is something that is engaged in when it's necessary, not as a matter of course, and being a warrior is just something that you do in addition to whatever else it is that you do. In a world at war, more men take up the warrior role, sure, but what becomes of the warrior when the war is over? The fate of those stuck in the warrior sphere seems lonely and bitter indeed. Not that bitter loneliness doesn't have its attractions. :)

I'm reminded of the end of John Ford's The Searchers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woahas_W35A) -- as the rest of the family heads inside the homestead and the camera pulls back through the door, Ethan, the John Wayne character, remains outside, isolated, tragic. He turns and walks away as the door closes. A warrior who is always off to new adventures is also always turning away from home and hearth and family.

Another thought -- the flip side of the expectation that women will stay home and mourn their dead is the expectation that men will take up arms and fight, and die. The social pressure on men to be warriors can be incredible, as Tolkien himself knew full well. So what if you're a sensitive young man, more given to poetry and learning than the martial arts? Well, you take up arms anyway and do your duty, as you can hardly do otherwise without suffering the censure of society. I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Faramir was the character with whom he most closely identified, and I get the sense that it's in this regard too. Faramir doesn't relish his role as warrior, and he can't wait to get back to less violent pursuits when the war is over. Both men and women can be victims of the pressures and expectations exerted by their culture.

Inziladun

02-22-2010, 01:35 PM

Another thought -- the flip side of the expectation that women will stay home and mourn their dead is the expectation that men will take up arms and fight, and die. The social pressure on men to be warriors can be incredible, as Tolkien himself knew full well. So what if you're a sensitive young man, more given to poetry and learning than the marshal arts? Well, you take up arms anyway and do your duty, as you can hardly do otherwise without suffering the censure of society. I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Faramir was the character with whom he most closely identified, and I get the sense that it's in this regard too. Faramir doesn't relish his role as warrior, and he can't wait to get back to less violent pursuits when the war is over. Both men and women can be victims of the pressures and expectations exerted by their culture.

That's a very good point, I think, and a nice new perspective.
There are examples of 'reluctant (male) warriors' in the books, who were unable to perform the duty required of them as men. The host of the West that were to act as cannon-fodder for Sauron's armies to give the Ring-bearer a chance had some.

So time and the hopless journey wore away. Upon the fourth day from the Cross-roads and the sixth from Minas Tirith they came at last to the end of the living lands, and began to pass into the desolation that lay before the gates of the pass of Cirith Gorgor; and they could decry the marshes and the desert that stretched north and west to the Emyn Muil. So desolate were those places and so deep the horror that lay on them that some of the host were unmanned, and they could neither walk nor ride further north. ROTK The Black Gate Opens

And much earlier in ME history, there was the sad plight of the lord of Brethil, Brandir son of Handir. With a lame leg which left him unable to perform as a warrior, and having a gentle temperament as well, he was publicy humiliated by his kinsman, Dorlas.

"Hearken, Men of Brethil, it is now well seen that for the evil of our times the counsels of Brandir were vain. There is no escape by hiding. Will none of you take the place of the son of Handir, that the House of Haleth be not put to shame? Unfinished Tales Narn i Hîn Húrin

Plainly not every woman is a housemaid or a healer by desire, but neither is every man a fighter, though both have pressure to perform certain duties.

Pitchwife

02-22-2010, 03:20 PM

So what if you're a sensitive young man, more given to poetry and learning than the marshal arts? Well, you take up arms anyway and do your duty, as you can hardly do otherwise without suffering the censure of society. I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Faramir was the character with whom he most closely identified, and I get the sense that it's in this regard too. Faramir doesn't relish his role as warrior, and he can't wait to get back to less violent pursuits when the war is over. Both men and women can be victims of the pressures and expectations exerted by their culture.
I think I like this point best, as it shows how Faramir, far from being merely 'second best' for Éowyn, actually was a perfect match for her - a man who, having had a similar role problem, only from the opposite direction, could understand and complement her better than even Aragorn. I hadn't seen their marriage in this light before, but it makes perfect sense now.

McCaber

04-13-2010, 03:29 AM

For me, this issue doesn't come down to Eowyn following her proscribed gender roles as it does her choosing optimism and hope over grim fate.

If "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer," Eowyn should feel no shame in traveling that same road. There should be no stigma in laying down the instruments of death and spreading life and healing. After the War that was what was needed most, and it's still part of her duty as nobility to care for those under her. She just used nonviolent means to do it, as did Faramir.

Galadriel

04-13-2010, 04:52 AM

I really don't think so. I sort of agree with the Faramir Chastising Her bit, because I think, like many feminists (like myself), she gets too defensive. Personally, I feel Faramir was right in telling her to calm down.
But don't forget, her name still goes down in history as the person who killed the Witch-king.
And I think Tolkien favoured women at the end of the day.

Erendis

04-16-2010, 05:31 AM

Just a few quick thoughts on the matter:

Personally,although I respected and admired Eowyn's valor in the battlefield,I disliked her choise because it was an outcome of a broken heart in the way of since she cannot get what she whants,then she shall get nothing.And then,some days after,she decides to become a housewife and healer.

I do not think that this choice has something to do that much with feminism as with a general change of era.Middle-Earth was stepping from a time of war,blood and death to a new age of re-creation,rebuilding and healing.So,this is a time for healers and peace-makers,more mild-tempered characters like Faramir and Arwen,not warriors.Even Aragorn,who is introduced as the ultimate warriorand is by that idealised for Eowyn, appears to embrasse the role of the healer with much more joy than that of the warlord.Even if Eowyn remained a glorious,proud and alone Shield Maiden,she might have probably ended like Erendis,regretting for her stubbornes,bittered and wanting to take a last taste of the life she lost.

And concerning the stay-behind-unpraised by Aragorn...

If we see this statement from a different point of view,doesn't it reffer to the Rangers of the North in a way too?Weren't they a short of left-behind defenders of the North,whose great deeds were not praised as those of an army with shinny armors and shields,but even worse than women,they were treated as scoundrels and inhonoured?

As for some who accusse him of being the sexist warrrior due to that quote,do they really think it?With a more carefull observation to the story of his rising in power,he was not only motivated by Arwen,but also helped,if not pushed.A banner and a claim of origins can be doubted,but when it comes to the prophesy of the Elfstone and the chosen by the people name,things afe way more secure.
Now seriously,do you think that after all these political moovements would that woman would accept to become a breeding and sewind machine?:DOr that a man with Aragorn's wisdom would not make use of such potential?

Orofarne

07-03-2010, 04:53 PM

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers. :rolleyes:
Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Mr. Washington is extremely dreadful, and obviously needs to read the books.
Also, Eowyn is a rather minor character in the books, and I really don't think that Tolkien was remarking on feminism, more on war. Didn't we keep hearing about how Faramir is something of a pacifist, and how the hobbits really didnt like seeing men kill one another? Eowyn was just another handy character to drive that point home, and she was so angry at being left to fester with the noncombatants while her uncle went to die, that she came too. After being very heroic, her renouncement of the warrior's trade is only another way of saying that war is bad. Besides, Tolkien himself fought in WWI, so War Is Bad was probably ground into his skin along with the blood and muck he accumulated in the trenches.

glrii

10-24-2010, 04:12 PM

Everyone realizes that Worm Tongue had placed a spell on King Théoden to make him feel old and take away his hope, and that Gandalf broke that spell allowing him to return to health. What I also noticed are the words of Gandalf in the houses of healing about Eowyn. Gandalf said, Think you that Worm tongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears. Gandalf is saying, worm tongue had also placed a spell on Eowyn to make her feel and act the way she did. The spell was broken not by Gandalf but by the love of Faramir. That is why she had the change of heart at the end. She may have been unhappy with her role, but her depression, abandonment of her post and suicidal tendencies were from Worm Tongue’s spell.

Galadriel55

10-24-2010, 06:35 PM

I don't think that Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn, but he did know about Merry. I don't know how Eowyn convinced hi to keep quiet about Merry, but I'm quite sure that she did not reveal herself. I've thought of her commanding Elfhelm to keep silent, but then it says that all the troops seeed not to notice Merry. It would be a bit hard to keep hundreds of people fro gossip that would sooner or later reach Theoden's ears.
About Eowyn's feminism. It is not bad; she has it and had it all along. It was just shoved into her deepest corner and replaced by dreas of warriors. This was sharpened by the years that she spent looking after Theoden and feeling her helplesness and lack of power. In a way, she was overcoe and blinded by that dream. When she talked to Faramir, he woke the other nature in her. It is a mistake to call it feminism, because it is also present in Faramir and other people. It is more like the desire to preserve and create rather than destroy and kill. It is not the kitchen that Eowyn returns to, it's just a different for of freedom.
Eowyn is not THE woman, as Tolkien views them. Look at Arwen, Galadriel, Rosie, and Goldberry! They are totally different, by character, by their "role in the family" and their idea of what they could or should be.

jallanite

09-21-2013, 08:06 PM

I've thought of her commanding Elfhelm to keep silent, but then it says that all the troops seeed not to notice Merry. It would be a bit hard to keep hundreds of people fro gossip that would sooner or later reach Theoden's ears.

Merry didn’t know that Derhelm was Éowyn until she revealed herself before the Nazgûl. But it might be easier to keep her identity secret from Merry than from the other riders, most of whom presumably knew one another and would be curious about this new addition to their éored.

Tolkien does not say how the secret was kept, but it seems to me most likely that Elfhelm had commanded his troops not to notice Merry. But why would he command this, presumably at Éowyn’s word, if he had not had some reason to trust and obey Éowyn? It is simplest for me to imagine that he knew who she was and obeyed her for that reason, perhaps in return for some previous favour she had done him. Éowyn would have been well known to him to be a capable shieldmaiden and fighter and so Elfhelm ordered his men not to notice either Éowyn or Merry and they obeyed.

Possibly some of Elfhelm’s men also recognized her, but said nothing. And so, because they said nothing, no word of Éowyn’s presence reached Théoden.

But these are only my imaginings about a matter of which Tolkien does not write and I might be wrong. Merry himself may never thought to have asked, or may not have told what he later found out to Frodo, or Frodo may not have written it down, or Tolkien may be imagined not to have translated it.

It is a mistake to call it feminism, because it is also present in Faramir and other people. It is more like the desire to preserve and create rather than destroy and kill. It is not the kitchen that Eowyn returns to, it's just a different for of freedom.Indeed! While being a shieldmaiden was not a common thing among the Rohirrim, it was acceptable. Like as not there were other shieldmaidens among the Rohirrim riders on the journey to Gondor, though Tolkien does not mention them.