Narya

[obloquy]

Cirdan:
'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is wtih the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.'

The interesting part is '...with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.'
Did Narya help Gandalf with Theoden? Could it have had any influence over the Ents? Maybe I'm just desperate for a new Tolkien topic, but this jumped out at me when I was looking through the appendices. Thoughts?

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Sharkû]

Did Narya help Gandalf with Theoden? Could it have had any influence over the Ents?
Most definitely, I would say.
The Ents may be a more difficult case, since Gandalf was not personally present at their rousing. Or was he? I for one never quite believed his denial to the Three Hunters that the wizard they saw outside of Fangorn was not him.
But the healing of Théoden and the rousing of the hobbits seem like good evidence to me. Gandalf literally rekindled the hidden valor of the Shire-folk, vital to the quest, like a bright new spark that sets ablaze a long smouldering ember, to shake "fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great" (Elrond). The latter quote also reminds, when taking out of context, of the Ents.

The healing of Théoden by Gandalf the White is even more obviously an effect of Narya, too, for here we have all the signs and symbolisms of the Ring of Fire.
At first Meduseld "seemed dark and warm" and "filled with shadows and half lights" . The sky above is pale, but yet some sunbeams reach the ground, the signs of coming change.
"But upon one form the sunlight fell: a young man upon a white horse" - a portent on the rise of Théoden, like his ancestor, and his people. The King himself is bent and seems decrepit, but the ember that could be kindled could still be seen in his eyes. The staff he leans on, black with a handle of white bone, is a symbol of death, and at his feet sat Wormtongue, tormenting his master's mind like a nightmare that sits on his breast.
As Gandalf casts his cloak aside and reveals his power, the scene changes to an impressive climax:
"He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth" (my stresses).
The rage of the new fire of Gandalf extinguishes the old, sickly, smouldering fire to light anew a fire from the still underlying old and pure flames. The contrast of light and darknesses is obvious -- Gandalf himself becomes the fire of valor.
After that revelation, the scene is totally new: "There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky. 'Not all is dark'". A faint light grows again in the hall, outside a fresh breeze drives away the clouds just like Gandalf drove away the mental cloud on Théoden that was Gríma. The abttributes that return to him, clarity to his head, and strength to his body, are all associated with the element of fire.
And what Théoden perceives as a fire that will "devour the high seat" is the bright new flame that will prevail over the enemies of Rohan, but also the life-flame of Théoden himself, which rises high in his last days, but eventually vanishes as he is overcome by a greater darkness on the Pelennor; his fear that overbold moves would threaten Rohan in the current situation - for this is also one thing he undoubtedly meant with this sentence - is quickly dismissed by Gandalf; the new great flame that is in the Hall will not harm the seat, but rather defend it.

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[obloquy]

Good post, Sharku!

I wonder if Narya's influence could extend farther than just Gandalf's immediate presence? Is it possible that Gandalf simply being near Fangorn could have had a motivational effect? The other two Elven rings that maintained Imladris and Lothlorien had this kind of "umbrella" effect. Further thoughts?

[Sharkû]

Interesting thought, I have to think about that. Another small thing I noticed is that the encouraging power of Narya and its bearer goes down to the most simple level, too, namely the fireworks of Gandalf, the joy of all hobbits.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hi guys, Maril here.

I agree Narya played a role in the rousing of Theoden, there's no doubt magic was involved, though I always thought it was the staff as Grima complained. Narya sounds more plausible. But as far as Pippin and Merry with Ents.. part of the magic of TLOTR is how real it is. What's more real than happenstance and coincidence? It's too tempting to give magic credit for everything.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

If you don't mind me asking, I'd like to know how you came up with that name? It's so long that it shoves the actual post aside to make room.

On the subject of magic; I believe another thread turned out the verdict that it was due to a) The spiritual karma goodness of Elves, b) The channelling of the power of the Valar, and c) the direct interference of Illuvitar on Earth. The Three stored up the magical energy of their wearers and twisted it in such a way that it would bend time; the Nine broadcasted the hatred of the Ainu Sauron through to his ringwraiths; the Seven stored up the Dwarve's lust for wealth and prosperity and so increased it; the One not only stored Sauron's power, it was a focal transmitter of it too.

[GreyIstar]

I beleive it also played a role in Gandalf engineering the quest of Lonely Mountain in the Hobbit and also persauding Bilbo to go on the trip.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

What did, my still-warm friend?

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

that eagle scares me smilies/wink.gif

[Kin-strife]

Narya hadn't been cocnceived by the time the hobbit was written, so it helping engineer the trip to the lonely and spurring Bilbo out of his hole couldn't have been the initial idea. However, while Tolkien was conceiving Narya perhaps it was his remembrance of these events that decided what the specific power of the ring would be.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Off-topic and answering the Windlord's question (who dare ignore a bird with a 90' wingspan?) -- the name was a whim. I read "Dude, Where's my ring?" laughed my head off, wrote some sacrilegious LOTR fiction, and then spoofed the early elves with the name (who, by-the-way, woke and taught the ents to speak, and it shows. Can I help if the ents improved on the habit?). Lorian in the old elvish tongue was Laurelindorinan (Laurelndorinan lindelorendor marlinornelion ornemalin to ents).

smilies/wink.gifMaril

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

On topic, magic is not in keeping with the theory of karma as described in the Abhidharmakosha of Vasubandu in ancient India. Current commentaries and translations can be found by Thrangu Rinpoche, and it's the subject of Lorig (Mind) and Dudra (Phenomena) in first year Buddhist college (Shedra) at Nitartha Institute. Cool stuff. If you prefer the ancient school, a translation of Mipham's turn of the century Khes-juk (Gateway to Knowledge) is underway.
As Gandalf told Pippin, get me started on this subject "and for once you may have an answer longer than you wish." Perhaps even longer than my name.

Karma not being part of the philosophy of ME (save in the most generalized form) you are spared. I dislike the idea of the Illuvatar playing an active role in motivating magic, as it steals free will. Therefore I take door number two.

--Maril

[the Lockbearer]

The subject of Narya leads me to this question. Cirdan the Shipwright had possession of that ring until Gandalf came to Middle-earth. What reason did Cirdan have to turn the ring over? Did he know that Gandalf was coming?

[obloquy]

From Unfinished Tales - The Istari:
For they [the Istari]came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Cirdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores.

...

But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him [Gandalf] the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'


And this from LotR, Appendix B:
Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Cirdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.


[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[KayQy]

Is it possible that Gandalf simply being near Fangorn could have had a motivational effect?

Or maybe rather than an umbrella, it was more of a "pass-it-on" effect: Gandalf kindled the hobbits, who in turn kindled the ents. (You gotta admit, though, seeing something you've never seen before will wake you up in any case.) Or maybe a blend of the two.

A word on the kindling of Theoden and the great post by Sharku that I'm not going to quote (this is long enough already): now there's an example of propaganda at work. Just goes to show that even the most misused tricks of the trade can still act on behalf of truth. smilies/smile.gif