What would the ring tempt you with? [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

miriena

08-19-2009, 08:37 PM

Knowledge; the ability to learn the secrets of the world and its essence without prying, knowing it in the same way that I know how to breathe, without thinking about it. Just knowing and understanding where the pieces fall and why it is the way it is. And people's silent recognition of my knowledge, and their reverence , never envy or malice. And no one would ask me to come and help their own cause, lead an army, lead a nation, nothing like that, I don't want leadership. I will share the knowledge as it is meant to be shared, and I will know what that means.

Well, when I write it out, I kind of look like a jerk, huh...

I could think of more trivial things like a nice salary, not having to pay back my student loans, finishing my Master's thesis and graduating already, all these things that gnaw at me daily, but I don't think I'd fall for these. Tangible things seem like I can have them if I work hard enough, it's the thing that work can't achieve that I want the most...

mormegil

08-19-2009, 08:41 PM

Morsul the Dark

08-19-2009, 08:42 PM

Power,

I would be tempted to destroy my enemies in wrath.

I would rise up as the new Dark Lord.

All would be within m power...

Ok maybe I Do need therapy...

miriena

08-19-2009, 09:01 PM

Of course, my power would be for similar purposes but would we also become corrupt?

I don't think you'd become *corrupt* in the sense where you lose your purpose, and strive only to gain more and more and more of whatever it is you think you want. But what I do think is that if it were to happen--you grab the Ring out of a gumball machine by chance, whoo-hoo!--this will not be a happy situation for the world.

People's views of "good" are so different. Why did people fall into situations where they are controlled by governments? Why do people keep multiplying on the planet, slowly depleting it of resources, and childfree people are still met with disdain and even anger? Why do people work on improving technology to make more things faster, why have people developed murder into an exact science? Why do people fight? Kill? Rise up to oppressors to fill the position with new oppressors? And all these things that a single person may disapprove of... Surely, on a global scale it's not done because people believe it's evil? They aren't purposefully crafting evil. They might think that taking these things away is the utmost evil, and what "greater good" is there then for them?

In general, taking choice away from people is evil, if you were to have everyone follow your agenda, they would be deprived of this right. But having everyone do their own thing may create chaos, there needs to be a fine balance, maybe.

A better use for the Ring if you want to fill your agenda is to make it so everyone thinks like you and believes in the same things, naturally, with no force required ;)

Thinlómien

08-20-2009, 03:44 AM

Of course, my power would be for similar purposes but would we also become corrupt?
Mmh given that Gandalf says:

"Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire to do good. Do not tempt me!"

and Galadriel says:

"I would [put things right and make people pay for their dirty work]. That is how it would begin. But I would not stop with that, alas!"

So I think yes, the Ring corrupts even those who want to use it for good, it makes them desire power and imagine they're the only ones who know what's right and probably makes them only care about power and themselves before long. It is a bit like what so often happens in our world: a charismatic revolution leader who idealistically believes in his beautiful cause and in democracy throws out the dictator and sooner or later becomes a dictator himself.

Eönwë

08-20-2009, 04:18 AM

If I don't sound too hypocritical or arrogant now, I will say - like Galadriel and Gandalf: the power to do good. Ask anybody who has heard me telling how, if I was the dictator of the world, I would save the world from the environmental threats and the big multinational companies and totalitarian governments abusing and oppressing people. I really sometimes wish I could do that - a worrying thing, I'd say.

But then you'd end up becoming evil yourself. You'd force everyone to do what you think is right (whether it is or not- actually, we could have a whole discussion about the nature of good and bad, but this isn't the right time...), and no-one would be able to do what they wanted. So even if you're making everyone good, you're forcing it on them, oppressing them with it, and that would be evil. So even if what's happening is good, they it's happening is evil. Free will, the Gift of Men (If we're going to Tolkien-connect this) would be gone.

And anyway, originally, didn't Sauron just want power in order to make everything more efficient?

Thinlómien

08-20-2009, 04:23 AM

But then you'd end up becoming evil yourself. You'd force everyone to do what you think is right (whether it is or not- actually, we could have a whole discussion about the nature of good and bad, but this isn't the right time...), and no-one would be able to do what they wanted. So even if you're making everyone good, you're forcing it on them, oppressing them with it, and that would be evil. So even if what's happening is good, they it's happening is evil. Free will, the Gift of Men (If we're going to Tolkien-connect this) would be gone.Exactly why I'm happy I never came across the Ring, and probably (at least partly) why Gandalf and Galadriel didn't want to take it.

Lindale

08-20-2009, 10:33 AM

Ok maybe I Do need therapy...

After which your therapist would be the new Dark Lord. :smokin:

As for me, it's wealth and the prospect of a peaceful life. As to how wealth and a peaceful life can coexist, that's the Ring's problem, not mine. :D

Legate of Amon Lanc

08-20-2009, 10:58 AM

I guess the main problem with the Ring is really that it will eventually turn everybody's best intentions (if they have them and don't simply want just the power and wealth in the first place) to bad ends. Or not even ends, but also means already. And thinking that you would be able to use it and NOT become a Dark Lord is the Ring's trick in itself. It is just impossible, like Eönwë has very well put it, and Lommy as well.

I am not really sure what my temptation would be like, and I guess it would be dangerous enough. Something between setting the world "right" - in the most "Gandalfish" way, in my case, I believe, as I am actually aware of the misuse of power more than of anything else, so I believe in my case the Ring would work really really subtly and that means really really dangerously! - and between having just a few peaceful comforts, the prospect of living in peace with just a few things I need. I think it could start to grow eventually, as the Ring would keep suggesting "and why won't you also want this? And this? And this?"

I am sure there will be more anyway, and I think I can actually imagine it pretty well, but I won't go on lengths here. But oh, now I actually figured what would be the Ring's main temptation for me - the first one anyway, or at least, the one it would have to drag me into anyway to make it possible for me in the first place to succumb to anything else. It would be leading me to the idea of self-sufficiency when it comes to deciding what is right or wrong. Like, convincing me that I am the one who can know it the best for myself! Isn't it just the Garden of Eden all over again? Interesting, I never gave much thought to it up to now. Wow, in that case, "my" Ring sounds quite archetypal. See, after the Ring would manage to do that, it would remove the main "failsafe" from me and I would be open to all other temptations it can offer. Which is just the point. "And the serpent said: Ye shall be like gods, knowing good and evil." I never thought the story was that clever. And neither did I suspect discovering as much about oneself from this thread.

TheGreatElvenWarrior

08-22-2009, 04:54 PM

Nogrod

08-22-2009, 05:53 PM

I guess the main problem with the Ring is really that it will eventually turn everybody's best intentions (if they have them and don't simply want just the power and wealth in the first place) to bad ends. Or not even ends, but also means already. And thinking that you would be able to use it and NOT become a Dark Lord is the Ring's trick in itself. It is just impossible, like Eönwë has very well put it, and Lommy as well.

To me this has always smelled like the lord Acton (1834–1902) speaking... "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". And looking at Tolkien's worldview and his time lord Acton would have been a person he knew about and agreed with. So the Ring is the emblem of power, the possibility of gaining power which then corrupts you - and with the Ring, "quite absolutely"... :)

Thence the heavy-hearted notes by Tolkien with Gandalf saying he'd love to do good but fears the power that might corrupt him whilst claiming the power to actually deliver the good?

Just a wild suggestion: maybe Tolkien saw what tickled the intellectuals in Germany during the twenties and thirties and how "right" they were in calling for conservative and nationalistic values (which Tolkien shared) in comparison to the technologically driven capitalism of the US & GB at one hand and collectivism of the Soviet Union (which both Tolkien as well disliked) on the other hand? But still, in the midst of that he was able to see that a kind of aristocratic system or revolution that could fight agaisnt those two great wheels of history would betray their children in the end anyway even if it was just trying to defend the "good things" against the "evil"? So, to become a Gandalf or Galadriel one should resist the temptation to try and mold the world towards the good with power?

Heh, I'm probably babbling right now... Let's see if I can make sense of what I'm trying to say tomorrow. :rolleyes:

Legate of Amon Lanc

08-23-2009, 03:14 AM

Just a wild suggestion: maybe Tolkien saw what tickled the intellectuals in Germany during the twenties and thirties and how "right" they were in calling for conservative and nationalistic values (which Tolkien shared) in comparison to the technologically driven capitalism of the US & GB at one hand and collectivism of the Soviet Union (which both Tolkien as well disliked) on the other hand? But still, in the midst of that he was able to see that a kind of aristocratic system or revolution that could fight agaisnt those two great wheels of history would betray their children in the end anyway even if it was just trying to defend the "good things" against the "evil"? So, to become a Gandalf or Galadriel one should resist the temptation to try and mold the world towards the good with power?

Heh, I'm probably babbling right now... Let's see if I can make sense of what I'm trying to say tomorrow. :rolleyes:

Okay, it took me more than one reading and at first I probably understood your post completely wrong, but I believe I got it right in the end. :) Anyway, I am not sure if I think Tolkien's thought would be like this, or not so specifically aimed as this, as the thing you mention is just one particular aspect derived from what I believe is more complex point behind the story.

If I were to speak for myself, the story of the Ring had for me always much deeper and much more general points in this aspect. Simply saying that power itself never achieves the victory, if one uses it as a path to some goal, because the path matters as much as the goal does. And that's what is always forgotten and what keeps being forgotten all the time, and that's what the Ring-bearing Gandalf or Galadriel would forget. That's what Saruman did forget (even if he remained true to his goal, to get M-E rid of the threat of Sauron): "We can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means." Which was exactly why Gandalf refused. Many would not agree. But it is obvious that it works like that, even if we look at examples from our own history - no real victory, no real freedom in matters comes if it is not mutually approved and wished for by everybody and not forced upon them, even if that were "for the greater good" or "for their own good". And that is exactly why the real changes come so slowly, so slow that often one feels like "now I would just put the Ring on and change it in an instance". And that's why this "Gandalf-ish" and "Galadriel-ish" question of the Ring is actual even now and all the time on. And it's too easy to fool oneself and say "I would never succumb" and put the Ring on to use it.

Eönwë

08-23-2009, 04:02 AM

And it's too easy to fool oneself and say "I would never succumb" and put the Ring on to use it.

By putting it on, you've already succumbed to the Ring.

Legate of Amon Lanc

08-23-2009, 07:18 AM

By putting it on, you've already succumbed to the Ring.

Well that's just what I meant. But I was referring to the classic way in which for example Boromir or Denethor seem to present their taking of the Ring "oh, I will just put it on for a while, win the war against Sauron, and then of course everything will be okay and I will gladly return it".

Eönwë

08-23-2009, 09:30 AM

Well that's just what I meant. But I was referring to the classic way in which for example Boromir or Denethor seem to present their taking of the Ring "oh, I will just put it on for a while, win the war against Sauron, and then of course everything will be okay and I will gladly return it".

I understood what you meant and were referring to, I was just pointing that out.

Pitchwife

08-23-2009, 02:37 PM

Just a wild suggestion: maybe Tolkien saw what tickled the intellectuals in Germany during the twenties and thirties and how "right" they were in calling for conservative and nationalistic values (which Tolkien shared) in comparison to the technologically driven capitalism of the US & GB at one hand and collectivism of the Soviet Union (which both Tolkien as well disliked) on the other hand?
If you mean what I think you mean, isn't it ironic that those intellectuals (some of them, at least - Gottfried Benn or Heidegger, e.g.) ended up falling for a regime that, beneath its veneer of conservative and nationalistic values, was just as technologically driven and collectivistic as the alternatives, not to mention presuming to style itself 'socialist' while actually protecting the interests of big capital as long as its owners weren't jewish?

Back on topic - what would the Ring tempt me with? For starters, I'd like to be able to travel to all the places on the world that I'd like to see, visit all the great museums and read all the books that never quite made it to the top of my reading list. I guess I'd probably need more than a single lifetime to do all this, so the artificial longevity that the Ring brings would come in quite handy.
As for bigger issues - I'd like to see the world saved, of course, but I think the Ring would have to work hard to convince me I've got the master plan how to go about it. I admit, however, that from time to time I have those fantasies about making some folk pay for their dirty work, as Sam Gamgee said to Galadriel. In those moods, I wouldn't mind a chance to put some of our politicians and big businessmen before a revolutionary tribunal and make them look down the barrels of a firing quad - just to give 'em a proper scare, of course; once they'd fouled their underwear, I'd be quite content to pardon them to some sentence of a more pedagogic purpose: like having to do some honest, useful work for a change, or subsisting on the income of a single mother on dole. Now that would be something the Ring could work with; and like Galadriel, I'm afraid I wouldn't stop with that.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

01-07-2010, 07:36 AM

skip spence

01-07-2010, 10:06 AM

I genuinely think I would be a Faramir and refuse the Ring.
I wouldn't become a Dark Lord either, but I would've taken the ring and used it to make more lowly temptations come true, you know, kind of like Gollum but more concentrated on hedonistic pleasures than vengeance and deceit. Sex, drugs and rock'n'roll, that kind of stuff. I'd become invisible, sneak into some brilliant songwriter or author's place and steal their work and claim it for my own, become rich, moderately famous perhaps, and if the paparazzi bothers you there's always an easy solution. Of course, eventually I'd wear out and fade away yet still live on, kind of like Keith Richards. Some people would certainly have to pay for their crimes against humanity though, make no mistake about that! Where can one find such a ring?

Andsigil

01-07-2010, 10:35 AM

The ring would tempt me with the power to create an idyllic existence.

Eönwë

01-07-2010, 02:52 PM

The ring would tempt me with the power to create an idyllic existence.

Or what you'd think was an ideal existence at the time. And then once you've achieved what you want to, you wouldn't just stop there, and you'd starting using the ring for more and more an then it would take you over. I admit that that's what would probably happen if I started using it.

I would try my best to refuse it. We say now that we wouldn't accept it, but we wouldn't really know until we came into contact with it, and by then it might be too late. Even the least power-hungry person could be attracted to it. It's probably best that rings like that don't exist.

Glirdan

01-07-2010, 03:02 PM

I genuinely think I would be a Faramir and refuse the Ring. I have no interest in wealth, power or fame; perhaps I would be tempted with security, as my greatest fear is probably having those I love caught in violence.

But the only vision I can see which satisfies this (in a reasonable way) is a very small, closed community - and as a fairly social person this does not appeal! I like living in a small city, which cannot exist without some degree of threat from other people, so I'm happy to leave that Ring lying on the ground.

I'm in total agreement with this. My biggest fear and problem in life is seeing those I care about getting hurt, and not just physically of course. I am the type of person to put other people's problems and issues before my own and am always helping my friends. Thus, a small community would be perfect to solve this....

However, for those who know me, I am too loud, obnoxious and like socializing too much to be confined to the small town, peaceful life that would be required to have this fear deteriorated. I'm a performer, I love the lime light and in turn love being in front of hundreds of people. I thrive off of it.

So, unless the Ring can somehow turn this walking, breathing contradiction into the opposite of that, I would much rather leave the Ring by the wayside and let the next poor sap pick it up.....After giving him fair warning of what the Ring might do of course. :rolleyes:

Eönwë

01-07-2010, 03:11 PM

I would much rather leave the Ring by the wayside:
You say, that now, I do too, but when it's whispering to you and saying "I'll give you all of this that you want", I think we're not as strong as we like to believe. That's why the Men that became Ringwraiths were so easily tempted. Of course, some of might refuse it- I know I like to believe I could, and I'm sure you do too, but you just never know.

Of course, this is just my opinion...

alatar

01-07-2010, 03:32 PM

I'm confused...where in the history of the One Ring did it ever beget peace, riches and supermodel spouses?

Power, that's all it gives. Control of others to do what they would not do otherwise.

The invisibility thing is nice too. :D

Something interesting as well in the Faramir-types. What if no one ever knew that you left the Ring by the wayside? Would you feel the same about your action? Or do you enjoy the praise of your weaker-willed brethren? What sin is that? Or do you really just not want it?

Loslote

01-07-2010, 08:34 PM

If the Ring were to tempt me, it would probably tempt me with the prospect of getting out of the dead end that is Anchorage, Alaska and to get somewhere else. Probably Britain, because being the good little Anglophile that I am, would rather be there. It would tempt me with wireless internet connection everywhere. This temptation to be on the internet all the time is probably the Bane of my existence! Oh, and tea too.

OH yeah! Totally. Except the tea. ;)

I genuinely think I would be a Faramir and refuse the Ring. I have no interest in wealth, power or fame; perhaps I would be tempted with security, as my greatest fear is probably having those I love caught in violence.

Actually, that's basically what mine would be. Add to that TGEW's eternal Internet, and that would be my idea of perfection. Maybe, to wrap all this up nicely...a secure little town in Britain with wireless Internet everywhere. I can already feel myself succumbing...

Andsigil

01-08-2010, 09:39 AM

Or what you'd think was an ideal existence at the time. And then once you've achieved what you want to, you wouldn't just stop there, and you'd starting using the ring for more and more an then it would take you over. I admit that that's what would probably happen if I started using it.

Well... yeah. That's very possible, since I'm a human being and therefore flawed.

I know myself fairly well (for 41 years now), and I'm both old-fashioned and simple in my tastes. So, all of my efforts would probably revolve around creating some kind of idealized version of late 19th century Europe or America.

skip spence

01-08-2010, 11:30 AM

I'm confused...where in the history of the One Ring did it ever beget peace, riches and supermodel spouses?

Power, that's all it gives. Control of others to do what they would not do otherwise.

I'm also confused. Does power not come in handy obtaining supermodel spouses, riches and peace? ;)

I would try my best to refuse it. We say now that we wouldn't accept it, but we wouldn't really know until we came into contact with it, and by then it might be too late. Even the least power-hungry person could be attracted to it. It's probably best that rings like that don't exist.
Maybe the One Ring is lost but there are plenty of lesser Rings of Power still out there, and even they are very dangerous for mortal men. And most ringbearers really do start out with the best intentions. Take for example the fight against terrorism or the fight against drugs. Noble intentions yes, but at the moment it looks like the war against the phenomena in question is causing much more problems than the phenomena itself. Or here in my country we have the fight to stop men from abusing women, a very noble cause. But not seldom this in practice has meant easing the burden of proof if a woman accuses a man of something, and in some cases innocent men have been send away on long prison sentences because of ludicrous charges without any real evidence.

alatar

01-08-2010, 11:53 AM

I'm also confused. Does power not come in handy obtaining supermodel spouses, riches and peace? ;)
First off, I don't think I need provide any additional evidence that supermodel spouses and peace could ever coexist - just read any media source. :D

Anyway, how many of the wraiths died rich, at peace and with their wives accompanying them?

How fun would it be to have a spouse that required a Ring to be held? How long would that be pleasurable?

Eönwë

01-08-2010, 03:47 PM

Anyway, how many of the wraiths died rich, at peace and with their wives accompanying them?

But that doesn't mean that a first they didn't believe they would.

Airaloske

01-08-2010, 04:41 PM

Airaloske

01-08-2010, 04:43 PM

How fun would it be to have a spouse that required a Ring to be held? How long would that be pleasurable?

isn't that the way most marriages work ;)

skip spence

01-08-2010, 04:49 PM

How fun would it be to have a spouse that required a Ring to be held? How long would that be pleasurable?
Well, I'd like to think that Donald Trump isn't really happy when he grasps his latest supermodel wife who doesn't really love him in his gold plated, diamond studded jacuzzi. Could also be that the sound in hos head is ka-ching!
;)

Anyway, how many of the wraiths died rich, at peace and with their wives accompanying them?
We know they didn't end up happy, sure. Accepting a Ring of Power is the road to ruin, I get that. But that doesn't mean they didn't initially have a good run. I'm sure WiKi fex got a hot wife and a nice castle and lots of shiny things to look at to begin with. I mean, where's the temptation in becoming a powerful yet wretched ghoul, doomed forever to walk in the shadows between life and death, joyless but hateful, a slave to the Dark Lord?

Loslote

01-08-2010, 07:48 PM

I mean, where's the temptation in becoming a powerful yet wretched ghoul, doomed forever to walk in the shadows between life and death, joyless but hateful, a slave to the Dark Lord?

...seriously? You don't think that sounds amazingly awesome? How boring. ;)

skip spence

01-09-2010, 05:26 AM

...seriously? You don't think that sounds amazingly awesome? How boring. ;)
You have issues, lassie... :)

Pitchwife

01-09-2010, 07:19 PM

the ring would tempt me with the power to go back in time, to relive my life and make better decisions. It would indulge my "what-ifs" to the point that I'd forget who I really was, and then would abandon me when things went wrong -again-. I'd soon find out that all it was doing was pulling a very vivid illusion over my eyes, making me believe that I was really experiencing life all over again.
That sounds quite familiar. It took me a long time to come to the point in my life when I learned to thank Whoever Is In Charge for most of the mistakes I made and forgive myself for the rest. If I could go back, chances are I'd just make different mistakes this time - and who knows, it might be for the the worse!

Lush

01-12-2010, 01:29 PM

What would the ring tempt you with?

Boys. Booze. The Nobel Prize for Literature.

Professional success, in a nutshell, is what's important to me. And I feel it's easy to fall into the trap where it eclipses everything else, and I see that with people who, like me, chase their own metaphoric One Rings. It's a need that, once you let it take over, can never be sated, even as it saps your relationships, which is the scary part.

Or maybe it would go all cheap on me and offer a decent new external hard drive. God knows, I need me one of those.

alatar

01-12-2010, 01:43 PM

Well, I'd like to think that Donald Trump isn't really happy when he grasps his latest supermodel wife who doesn't really love him in his gold plated, diamond studded jacuzzi. Could also be that the sound in hos head is ka-ching!
Understood. Think that the dream is working out very well currently for Tiger Woods.

Anyway, my point (I'm going to pretend to have one) is that the One Ring does not create. It gives power and control. So to get that hot spouse you would have to exert that power and control.

Not that they were 'spouses', but look how well the relationship between Saruman and Wormtongue worked out. Saruman used - controlled - yet despised Worm, and Worm needed yet despised Saruman.

One day someone gets stabbed.

I think that the One Ring would pervert any gain obtained by its use. It's a jealous thing, and won't appreciate you spending time with that supermodel spouse while it sits at home.

We know they didn't end up happy, sure. Accepting a Ring of Power is the road to ruin, I get that. But that doesn't mean they didn't initially have a good run. I'm sure WiKi fex got a hot wife and a nice castle and lots of shiny things to look at to begin with. I mean, where's the temptation in becoming a powerful yet wretched ghoul, doomed forever to walk in the shadows between life and death, joyless but hateful, a slave to the Dark Lord?Understood - there has to be worm on the hook, or some bait in the trap.

But to sell one's soul for some empty pleasures? Sounds like a life like Turin's in the making.

skip spence

01-13-2010, 11:21 AM

Understood. Think that the dream is working out very well currently for Tiger Woods.

Okay, Tiger's seen better days, maybe, but surely you can see how his lifestyle would be tempting to some, if not wise and sustainable?

Anyway, my point (I'm going to pretend to have one) is that the One Ring does not create. It gives power and control.
...
I think that the One Ring would pervert any gain obtained by its use. It's a jealous thing, and won't appreciate you spending time with that supermodel spouse while it sits at home.
Yeah, I think the idea of the One Ring is absolute power and control, and how it (to rule others) corrupts, regardless of the wielder's intentions. With the ring on your finger you have the means to enforce your own world-view on others. Few people in that situation would let the opportunity pass by, because they would fail to see the "bad" in it. Needless to say, the idea of throwing the Ring into the fires it was made from wouldn't have occurred to any leaders of the West or East in the real world, something Tolkien was well aware of.

Speaking of the supermodel wife, I think the Ring would give you the means to find out what she is doing and thinking at all times. And with the opportunity to listen in, who can resist?

But to sell one's soul for some empty pleasures? Sounds like a life like Turin's in the making.
You mean unhappy? I never got the feeling that Turin was chasing empty pleasures. He seems to have been burdened down with conflicting, high ideals rather...

alatar

01-13-2010, 12:27 PM

Okay, Tiger's seen better days, maybe, but surely you can see how his lifestyle would be tempting to some, if not wise and sustainable?
Tempting to some, I guess (I'd leave the golf ;) :D). My point is that money, fame, prestige, supermodel wife doesn't always equate with a viable life. So if it *can* happen (as shown by Tiger), with the One Ring as a jealous evil player in one's life, the scales may be tipped so that it is the more probable outcome.

Yeah, I think the idea of the One Ring is absolute power and control, and how it (to rule others) corrupts, regardless of the wielder's intentions. With the ring on your finger you have the means to enforce your own world-view on others.Force is the word. For every force there is an equal and opposite force (not sure how that comes into play).

Few people in that situation would let the opportunity pass by, because they would fail to see the "bad" in it. Needless to say, the idea of throwing the Ring into the fires it was made from wouldn't have occurred to any leaders of the West or East in the real world, something Tolkien was well aware of.Much agreed.

Speaking of the supermodel wife, I think the Ring would give you the means to find out what she is doing and thinking at all times. And with the opportunity to listen in, who can resist?You must not be married. :D

"Honey, are you listening to me?!?"

"Uh-huh."

"Well then, what did I just say?"

"Uhh..." runs for the man cave.

You mean unhappy? I never got the feeling that Turin was chasing empty pleasures. He seems to have been burdened down with conflicting, high ideals rather...What I meant is that he used force at times to get his way, and was a bold man as well, and yet his life turned to grief. Sure, Morgoth had it in for him - bet the One Ring would act the same.

Note that we seem to be discussing two different sets of Rings as one: The One Ring, which was always trying to get back to Sauron (and so would jump to a more useful vehicle) and one of the Nine, which were made to 'stick' to the person to whom it was given in order to enslave the wearer.

skip spence

01-13-2010, 02:22 PM

Tempting to some, I guess (I'd leave the golf ;) :D).
Right. :D

Force is the word. For every force there is an equal and opposite force (not sure how that comes into play).
It doesn't. Applying the methods of natural sciences on human relations is a huge mistake. I suppose the modernists were first to make make that mistake, and although it should be clear by now it was a terrible idea, politicians and social engineers show no sign of giving it up.

You must not be married.

"Honey, are you listening to me?!?"

"Uh-huh."

"Well then, what did I just say?"

"Uhh..." runs for the man cave.
Haha, as you probably guessed, I was thinking more along the lines of jealously guarding over your young supermodel wife and less about for the umpteenth time having to listen to what Debbie or Paula said at work and how that made someone feel and yada yada...
What I meant is that he used force at times to get his way, and was a bold man as well, and yet his life turned to grief. Sure, Morgoth had it in for him - bet the One Ring would act the same. I see.

alatar

01-13-2010, 02:48 PM

It doesn't. Applying the methods of natural sciences on human relations is a huge mistake. I suppose the modernists were first to make make that mistake, and although it should be clear by now it was a terrible idea, politicians and social engineers show no sign of giving it up.
I'm not giving up as well. Force someone to do something, and you build up opposite forces expressed as resentment. I see this at work sometimes in raising children. Force them to do something, and they will sandbag and resent the task and the tasker. Continue to do this and eventually, when given the chance, they will flee (not that that's a bad thing some times :D) when they cannot fight back.

How much better to engage them, make them feel that they aren't being forced into doing something. Chances are that you end up with children that take the initiative and do things without being forced more often than otherwise.

Haha, as you probably guessed, I was thinking more along the lines of jealously guarding over your young supermodel wife and less about for the umpteenth time having to listen to what Debbie or Paula said at work and how that made someone feel and yada yada...So you use the Ring to get the supermodel spouse/slave, and yet you are already unnerved that she might be thinking about straying.

Sounds like you're already on that slippery slope of having a mouthful of ashes (to randomly mix metaphors or something). I'd advise sleeping with a dagger under the pillow, just in case. ;)

How better to win a spouse without a Ring, and then know that he/she is with you for you by their own free will, and not due to some force or trickery.

skip spence

01-13-2010, 03:59 PM

I'm not giving up as well. Force someone to do something, and you build up opposite forces expressed as resentment. I see this at work sometimes in raising children. Force them to do something, and they will sandbag and resent the task and the tasker. Continue to do this and eventually, when given the chance, they will flee (not that that's a bad thing some times :D) when they cannot fight back.

How much better to engage them, make them feel that they aren't being forced into doing something. Chances are that you end up with children that take the initiative and do things without being forced more often than otherwise.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Instead of using overt force you fool them into thinking that the initiative to do what you want them to do actually comes from they themselves. Nice.

So you use the Ring to get the supermodel spouse/slave, and yet you are already unnerved that she might be thinking about straying.
Well yes, and why wouldn't she? I'm paranoid, possessive and not pretty to look at. But she'd better not if she knows what's good for her!

Sounds like you're already on that slippery slope of having a mouthful of ashes (to randomly mix metaphors or something). I'd advise sleeping with a dagger under the pillow, just in case. ;) Why? What have you heard? Better keep an eye on you too...

How better to win a spouse without a Ring, and then know that he/she is with you for you by their own free will, and not due to some force or trickery. But what if you can't al, what if you fear that you are unable... That's the thing, isn't it? We all have something we want but can't have. The ruling Ring, whether we see it as a fictional object or a metaphor for real life power, may give you the means of obtaining that something which you crave for.

alatar

01-26-2010, 11:00 AM

Ah, I see what you are saying. Instead of using overt force you fool them into thinking that the initiative to do what you want them to do actually comes from they themselves. Nice.
Ever read about Tom Sawyer?

Well yes, and why wouldn't she? I'm paranoid, possessive and not pretty to look at. But she'd better not if she knows what's good for her!Ick!

Why? What have you heard? Better keep an eye on you too...That would be good advise...I'm usually up to something, but the question is...what? :D

But what if you can't al, what if you fear that you are unable... That's the thing, isn't it? We all have something we want but can't have. The ruling Ring, whether we see it as a fictional object or a metaphor for real life power, may give you the means of obtaining that something which you crave for.So we're motivated by the fear of something we don't have under our control? Problem is, as I've seen it, is the more you control, the more you need to control. Saruman tried to control his situation, and we see in the 'Voice' chapter that he tried to control everyone present, but that he couldn't control everybody and everything. And again, though he had Worm like a puppet, the puppet finally cut more than just his strings.

Think that you'd sleep better if you left the Ring on the road, and accepted what just is. :)