How did Saruman know who Gimli was ?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

At the Orthanc encounter between Gandalf and Saruman, when Gimli interjected during the exchange, Saruman said "Peace.... I do not speak to you yet, Gimli Gloin's son".

How did Saruman know who Gimli was ?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I would think that he would either know because of his use of the Palantir, or Gandalf told him. Either that or he knew Gloin. That could be a possibility...

[Inziladun]

Also, it appears Saruman had been spying on Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli previously.

Suddenly Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the firelight stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. TTT The Riders of Rohan

Gandalf, of course, later denied the old man they had seen was he, saying they must have seen Saruman.

[Pitchwife]

I suppose Wormtongue told him, though it's not quite clear how Wormie knew who Gimli's father was. When Gandalf introduced his companions on their arrival in Edoras, he only referred to Gimli as 'Gimli the Dwarf'. But Gimli himself gave his full name to Éomer when they first met (in The Riders of Rohan), and Éomer may have mentioned it when he reported to the King (presumably in Wormtongue's presence).
(I don't think the Palantir had anything to do with it - unless you suppose its user interface included little pop-ups providing names and biographical information on people seen in the stone when you thought-clicked on them;).)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Personally, I would think it was only the fact that Saruman encountered them by the Fangorn forest, and then, the news Wormtongue brought. Gandalf says something about Aragorn, later, to Pippin, and I think we can apply a similar pattern to Gimli:

It may be that [Sauron] will learn that I was there and stood upon the stairs of Orthanc-with hobbits at my tail. Or that an heir of Elendil lives and stood beside me. If Wormtongue was not deceived by the armour of Rohan, he would remember Aragorn and the title that he claimed.

[Aaron]

Gimli was a courageous, hardened warrior. Perhaps tales of him and his lineage reached Isengard?

[Inziladun]

Gimli was a courageous, hardened warrior. Perhaps tales of him and his lineage reached Isengard?

Courageous he certainly was. However, I think he would have been of absolutely no interest to Saruman were it not for his involvement with the Company of the Ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Courageous he certainly was. However, I think he would have been of absolutely no interest to Saruman were it not for his involvement with the Company of the Ring.

Exactly. With all respect to Gimli, son of Glóin, I am pretty sure Saruman's attitude would be "Dwarves? These funny little ground-diggers? Does that even exist still?" (Funny, by the way, imagining that from former Maia of Aulë. But I could indeed think it was like that.)
Judging from Saruman's speech to Gandalf:
The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule.

I think for Saruman the Elves were done for, but the Dwarves were never even worth mentioning. I mean, really. Try to think like Saruman: he would look at the achievements in Middle-Earth purely from the basic look at the timeline. Who was in Saruman's eyes "cool"? Likely some great Elven kings of old, who had the power to overthrow Morgoth or Sauron (although most of them still died, losers them). Dwarves never really made a big difference, not in the way noticeable by Saruman. The only thing they would be useful for, if you asked, would have been probably mining gold, so that you could make nice rings out of it. And that's probably all.

So all in all, no. Gimli son of Glóin was familiar to Saruman because he happened to be a member of the Fellowship. Hm, speaking of this, I think I know - if Saruman had spies (birds and such), they probably told him how many people are in the Company and who they are, and of course he would then search for who exactly they might be. And the journey of Gimli and Glóin to the Council would have been easy to track for his agents, most likely.

[CSteefel]

It is a bit hard to imagine that Saruman's animal spies were able to pick up that the dwarf's name was Gimli and that he was son of Gloin. Even the night time visit to the the campfire would not have given him this information.

Only one I can think of is Wormtongue, who would presumably have heard the name from Eomer or one of his men, since this is where Gimli announces that he is Gloin's son. Since Eomer lent them the horses, and the guards at the gates of Edoras knew that they were returning with those horses (as Gandalf notes upon arrival), the names of the three wanderers who they had met to the north would be known to Wormtongue...

[Inziladun]

Only one I can think of is Wormtongue, who would presumably have heard the name from Eomer or one of his men, since this is where Gimli announces that he is Gloin's son. Since Eomer lent them the horses, and the guards at the gates of Edoras knew that they were returning with those horses (as Gandalf notes upon arrival), the names of the three wanderers who they had met to the north would be known to Wormtongue...

Now that I think about it, that's probably the most likely. Éomer did indeed hear Gimli say he was the son of Glóin at their first meeting, and that was the only time Gimli's father is mentioned in that part of the book. At the time Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli see the old man at the edge of the trees, only Gimli's name had been said when the old man was likely to have been watching.

[Elmo]

I suppose Wormtongue told him, though it's not quite clear how Wormie knew who Gimli's father was. When Gandalf introduced his companions on their arrival in Edoras, he only referred to Gimli as 'Gimli the Dwarf'. But Gimli himself gave his full name to Éomer when they first met (in The Riders of Rohan), and Éomer may have mentioned it when he reported to the King (presumably in Wormtongue's presence).
(I don't think the Palantir had anything to do with it - unless you suppose its user interface included little pop-ups providing names and biographical information on people seen in the stone when you thought-clicked on them;).)
I'm not 100% but I don't think a palantir has a sound card installed so you can't hear anything with it so he can't have heard Gimli son of Gloin being spoken with it.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Saruman didn't spend all his time in Isengard. We know he visited Minas Tirith and he was part of the White Council ... so he must have attended the meetings. We also know that he participated in the attack on Dol Guldur, so he got around a bit.

I wonder if he'd ever visited Rivendell? Elrond would have had no reason to turn him away.

What I'm saying is - he probably knew of more people than we think! Remember, he was interested in the One Ring ... Bilbo found the Ring and Gloin was one of his companions... it's not inconceivable that Saruman knew something of this, given his interest.

[Inziladun]

What I'm saying is - he probably knew of more people than we think! Remember, he was interested in the One Ring ... Bilbo found the Ring and Gloin was one of his companions... it's not inconceivable that Saruman knew something of this, given his interest.

I do think it likely that Saruman knew Gandalf had a plan to eliminate Smaug, but I doubt he knew the details. If he'd been aware Gandalf was leading thirteen Dwarves and a Hobbit to the Lonely Mountain to destroy a dragon, his likely conclusion would have been that old Olórin had finally gone off the deep end. ;)
Saruman probably didn't pay too much attention to Thorin and Company at that time, since he was occupied with getting Sauron out of Dol Guldur. I wouldn't think the names of the Dwarves involved would have been something he would have taken the trouble to learn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I second Inzil. Also, apart from that, Bilbo's connection to the Ring was unknown to Saruman basically until the very end, when he got straight to the source - i.e. Gandalf, whom he imprisoned in Orthanc. If he would be interested in learning how did the Ring end up in Bilbo's possession, it would have had to be solved then, and again, we are basically around the same time there. Anyway, learning the Dwarves' names would have been of little importance to Saruman. I mean, Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin would sound as funny to Saruman as they do to a reader of the Hobbit, except maybe for Thorin who was of some renown, but as good as dead (well, rather dead, actually). These names were of no use to Saruman as they didn't have anything to do with the Ring, and like I said above, at the time when Saruman could have learned about their connection to Bilbo, his immediate concern would be to get the Ring itself, which was somewhere in Eriador being chased around by the Black Riders.

AT MOST, though highly unlikely, Saruman could have - out of interest, or rather out of the pedantic obsession to know everything about the Rings - "googled" :D the names of the thirteen Dwarves around the time of Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc, which could have coincided interestingly with Gimli and Glóin's journey from Erebor to Rivendell, and maybe then Gimli's appearance in the Fellowship might have been more of notice to him, as he would get the feeling that "something is going on here" as the recurring characters revolving around the Ring appear. But personally I somewhat doubt that.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I second Inzil. Also, apart from that, Bilbo's connection to the Ring was unknown to Saruman basically until the very end, when he got straight to the source - i.e. Gandalf, whom he imprisoned in Orthanc. If he would be interested in learning how did the Ring end up in Bilbo's possession, it would have had to be solved then, and again, we are basically around the same time there.

That was the time I was thinking of. Of course Saruman wouldn't have been interested in the Erebor Quest back when the White Council were considering how to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur.

However, while Saruman had Gandalf in Orthanc, the Nazgul showed up (according to Unfinished Tales) looking for The Shire and a hobbit called Baggins. Saruman's spies in the shire would soon be able to tell him that there were two Baggins; Bilbo who had gone off into the wild on a quest with Gandalf and some dwarves and then disappeared mysteriously at his 111th birthday party and Frodo, who had inherited Bilbo's house and who had also mysteriously disappeared.

Once Saruman worked out that Gandalf seemed to be "behind" all this I'm sure that the composition of the Fellowship would have been of some interest to him. Especially as the Fellowship included Gandalf, Aragorn (Isildur's heir) and Boromir of Minas Tirith (whom Saruman probably met at some point in the past).

I don't think that Tolkien made a mistake here, I'm sure he intended that Saruman had done his homework.

[CSteefel]

I don't recall any mention of Gimli in the Hobbit, so how would Gloin's son have come to Saruman's attention through the business of Smaug. I also don't see what it would have to do with visits to Rivendell, since the visit of Gimli here also appeared to be a first for him.

There is a slight chance he knew of Gloin's name (although still unlikely that he would have focused on one of this large party of dwarves), but I don't see how this gets him the name of Gimli and that Gimli is Gloin's son...

[Rumil]

Agree that Saruman probably heard of Gimli via Wormtongue.

However I'd guess that he had some interest in the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain. After all the Battle of Five Armies was a really major event that altered the balance of power somewhat. I think Saruman would have been rather fascinated as to how the Grey Wanderer somehow managed to arrange the demise of Smaug the Magnificent.

More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing.

Gimli was probably one of the top few dozen Dwarves of Erebor (in terms of social status) and Saruman, being the political operator we know he was, might well have complied information on the top players amongst the major powers of the time.

[Inziladun]

More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing.

Saruman had to have been well aware Sauron had recovered or accounted for all the Seven.
Gandalf had gone into Dol Guldur in T.A. 2850, and had then found Thráin II there, raving about 'the last of the Seven'. The White Council had met the very next year to discuss what to do about the Necromancer (revealed to be Sauron by Gandalf), and Gandalf would surely have told all about his experiences in Dol Guldur, including the fate of Thráin's ring.

[Sarumian]

I totally agree that every detail of the Erebor quest should be of a great interest for Saruman. Smaug's ellimination and the Battle of Five Armies were very important events; he cuould also have felt there was something dodgy in that, though the Ring was kept a secret. So Saruman must have been be aware of Gloin's name.

I don't think he knew anything about Gimli before the Fellowship departed from Rivendail. However he could have learnt it either from his spies in Hollin (there could be not only animals, but Dunlendings), or from Wormtongue, or himself in Farngorn, as have already been said here, so there was no mistake.

[Inziladun]

I don't think he knew anything about Gimli before the Fellowship departed from Rivendail. However he could have learnt it either from his spies in Hollin (there could be not only animals, but Dunlendings), or from Wormtongue, or himself in Farngorn, as have already been said here, so there was no mistake.

I doubt Dunlendings, or any other two-legged spies, could have been close enough to the Company in Eregion to have overheard their speech.
For one thing, the lands surrounding Rivendell had been well searched prior to the departure of the Fellowship. Also, it seems likely anyone trying to follow them would have been marked by Legolas, Aragorn, or Gandalf at least, not to mention the Hobbits, who were sharp enough to see and hear Gollum later on when he was on their trail.

And by the way, welcome Sarumian!

[Mugwump]

Considering the age of the Istari, and how much they got around, I would have been astounded at any suggestion that Saruman did NOT know a notable dwarf like Gimli by sight. I'm certain he must've seen him before in his travels, and more than once.

[Formendacil]

Considering the age of the Istari, and how much they got around, I would have been astounded at any suggestion that Saruman did NOT know a notable dwarf like Gimli by sight. I'm certain he must've seen him before in his travels, and more than once.

That seems highly unlikely to me. Saruman, based on my impression from the Istari bits of Unfinished Tales and the Tale of the Years, was pretty sedentary after the Steward of Gondor gave him the keys of Orthanc. Not completely, I don't imagine, but I really don't think he was much of a wanderer by the time of the last White Council, and Gimli was too young then to go on the Quest to Erebor, so I don't think we can call him "notable" quite yet.

[Mugwump]

Gimli was too young then to go on the Quest to Erebor, so I don't think we can call him "notable" quite yet.
Because of who Gimli's father was, I would still be greatly surprised if Saruman didn't already know him by sight. Conversely, Saruman's calling him by name at that time could easily have been to show off his knowledge. I'm sure he used the Palantir and his other spies to scope out as much information about Gandalf and his companions as possible.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Because of who Gimli's father was, I would still be greatly surprised if Saruman didn't already know him by sight. Conversely, Saruman's calling him by name at that time could easily have been to show off his knowledge. I'm sure he used the Palantir and his other spies to scope out as much information about Gandalf and his companions as possible.

Yes, but here we go - only after Gimli became the part of the Fellowship. Glóin was really not important AT ALL for somebody like Saruman, cf. what I have posted earlier on this thread. Thorin was the only one of the original bunch (and later maybe Balin when he initiated the departure to Moria) who could have really been of any interest to Saruman. Saruman was also becoming already "powerblind" in this stage, this typical trait of bad guys in Middle-Earth (like Sauron ignoring the Hobbits), I think with his ideology he would just shrug off the Dwarves as unimportant, skilful but doomed to rot in their voluntarily chosen foolish stagnation underground. So indeed even Erebor and Dáin would mean for him only a strategic piece on the map blocking the Easterlings, and a number in his economic calculations if he was getting a trade from there.

[Formendacil]

Because of who Gimli's father was, I would still be greatly surprised if Saruman didn't already know him by sight. Conversely, Saruman's calling him by name at that time could easily have been to show off his knowledge. I'm sure he used the Palantir and his other spies to scope out as much information about Gandalf and his companions as possible.

I'm not denying Gimli wasn't a Dwarf of some consequence. Assuming Thorin Stonehelm was an only child, and assuming there are no other missing figures in the branches depicted in Appendix A III, Gimli was 4th in line to the Durinic throne, after Thorin III, Dwalin, and his father, Glóin. On this basis, Gimli may well have been known to Saruman by name.

But I wonder if you are overvaluing somewhat slightly the efficacy of the Palantír. Here is a bit of what Tolkien said in his essay, "The Palantíri" in Unfinished Tales:

But controlled by the will of a skilled and strong surveyor, remoter things could be enlarged, brought as it were nearer and clearer, while their background was almost suppressed. Thus a man at a considerable distance might be seen as a tiny figure, half an inch high, difficult to pick out against a landscape or a concourse of other men; but concentration could enlarge and clarify the vision till he was seen in clear if reduced detail like a picture apparently a foot or more in height, and recognized if he was known to the surveyor. Great concentration might even enlarge some detail that interested the surveyor, so that it could be seen (for instance) if he had a ring on his hand.

But this 'concentration' was very tiring and might become exhausting. Consequently it was only undertaken when the information was urgently desired, and chance (aided by other information maybe) enabled the surveyor to pick out items (significant to him and his immediate concern) from the welter of the Stone's visions.

My point with this longish quote is that getting familiar with the likenesses of various Dwarf-lords would not have been a particularly easy task for Saruman, and I have doubts as to whether he would have wasted this much energy on Gimli--or even Glóin. Although powerful, the Gróinic line was but a cadet branch of the house of Durin--and, as I noted, Thorin III Stonehelm might not have been an only son--and Dwalin might not have been childless.

All this assumes, too, that the Orthanc-Stone would have reached Erebor, which is not a good assumption, in my books. Quoting again, Note 18 from the same essay:

Marginal jottings associated with this note are partly illegible, but so much can be made out, that the remotre the poast the clearer the view, while for distant viewing there was a 'proper distance', varying with the Stones, at which distant objects were clearer. The greater palantíri could look much further than the lesser; for the lesser the 'proper distance' was of the order of five hundred miles, as between the Orthanc-stone and that of Anor. "Ithil was too near, but was largely used for [illegible words], not for personal contacts with Minas Anor.

500 miles--Isengard to Minas Tirith. Very roughly making distance calculations with my fingers on the map in my paperback copy of Unfinished Tales, Erebor was another two-thirds as far again. Even assuming a certain amount of over-run in distance being possible for a strong mind, I think it's safe to say that Erebor was far out of casual viewing range for Isengard, and even Rivendell was pushing it.

Of course, if there is anywhere in Middle-earth that, in the late 3rd Age, was still shrouded from the sight of the Stones, I would think it would be the refuge of Elrond, which was still unknown to casual travellers, and ruled by one of the Wise, who had the lore of Arnor in his library (as well as the Elven lore of Eregion). So when could Saruman have started picking up Gimli in the Palantír? I am personally of the opinion that he wouldn't have been following the Fellowship until Anduin--maybe not even until Fangorn or Edoras.

This does not mean, with all the foregoing, that Saruman couldn't put two and two together. Undoubtedly, he must have had a few spies in Dale and Erebor, and when he noticed/heard that a Dwarf had travelled from Rivendell with the Fellowship, I expect he would have been able to recall that the near-royal Lords Glóin and Gimli of the House of Durin had left Erebor for Rivendell, and it wouldn't take much of a genius to deduce that, of the two, it would be Gimli who had accompanied the Fellowship.

So... I agree the Palantír played a role in this recognition, but I would downplay the extent to which Saruman was utilising it for the general recognition of not-quite-key lords in realms very far from his own.

[Mithalwen]

To be boring maybe it is simply that Gandalf was not reported verbatim?

Since the mode of address in Rohan usually seems to refer the father's name - we are forever being told that Eomer and Eowyn are Eomund's children it seems possible that at some point they were so described and this referred to Theoden and Grima. Maybe by Eomer or simply by Hama or another guard. Just because the description wasn't used in the formal presentation it doesn't mean it wasn't known. I am sure our own dear queen often already knows the identities of those presented to her .:cool: